Just to simplify things : Israel Vs. Hamas: Who Ya got?

[lleeder]

Who Ya Got?

[TheMojoPin]

Doesn't work that way.

[lleeder]

Doesn't work that way.

I knew you'd have something against this thread.

[Don Stugots]

whats the point spread?

[TheMojoPin]

I knew you'd have something against this thread.

I love your polls, but this one is flawed. Israel is a country...Hamas is not. I assume you want to essentially pit Israel vs. Palestine/Palestinians. Hamas is a political party/extremist group. To act like the only choices are them or all of Israel just doesn't work.

[Don Stugots]

I love your polls, but this one is flawed. Israel is a country...Hamas is not. I assume you want to essentially pit Israel vs. Palestine/Palestinians. Hamas is a political party/extremist group. To act like the only choices are them or all of Israel just doesn't work.

could there be a tourny? like college basketball?

[donnie_darko]

i think what the area needs are black people, lots of em, that tends to make people get over their religious issues and target people with a darker skin color.

lets get on it.

[midwestjeff]

could there be a tourny? like college basketball?

That's what I was thinking.

Israel vs. Hamas. and then the winner plays the Palestinians.

Then a consolation game to determine 2nd place, if necessary.

I should be in the UN.

[DolaMight]

I hate hammocks.

[lleeder]

For someone that doesn't read or watch the news, I think this is a great current events thread.

[DolaMight]

For someone that doesn't read or watch the news, I think this is a great current events thread.

you should start a pakistan vs india poll. I'm with the denim sheiks.

[lleeder]

you should start a pakistan vs india poll. I'm with the denim sheiks.

they getting arab money

[epo]

For someone that doesn't read or watch the news, I think this is a great current events thread.

No its not.

[cougarjake13]

whats the point spread?

hamas is getting 10

[sailor]

I love your polls, but this one is flawed. Israel is a country...Hamas is not. I assume you want to essentially pit Israel vs. Palestine/Palestinians. Hamas is a political party/extremist group. To act like the only choices are them or all of Israel just doesn't work.

i vote israel.

[evedder]

restless soul, enjoy your youth
like muhammad hits the truth

[MacVittie]

Jews in 6.

[donnie_darko]

i got whoever has more 8 year olds throwing rocks at tanks.

[sailor]

Jews in 6.

ha! that made me laugh for some reason.

[A.J.]

I'm taking the underdog to shock the world.

[Death Metal Moe]

They're both jackoffs.

[Whiskeyportal]

http://www.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUSN31386497._CH_.2400

Arab and Muslim speakers laid the blame on Israel and made little reference to the rockets.

In a harshly worded speech, Libyan Ambassador Giadalla Ettalhi said Israel's attacks and restrictions on aid convoys into Gaza "in their own way represent a crime of genocide."

He urged fellow envoys to adopt the resolution "so that we do not add another Srebrenica (in Bosnia) or Rwanda to the history of this council" -- a reference to massacres in the 1990s that the United Nations failed to prevent. (Editing by Chris Wilson)

Israel all the way. Fuck those Hamas savages.

[Death Metal Moe]

Yea, just call other cultures savages, dismiss them and let things stay the way they are.

That always works. Hey, just put them in the "Axis of Evil" and never open any diplomatic talks with them. That's been working quite well for the past 8 years.

[A.J.]

Israel all the way. Fuck those Hamas savages.

Walling off a segment of the population and then placing an embargo on them to deny them access to power or medical supplies is certainly the behavior of an enlightened society.

[Dan 'Hampton]

could there be a tourny? like college basketball?

How about a round robin?

[KatPw]

I vote neither. Israel and Palestine both instigate unrest.

[Death Metal Moe]

Walling off a segment of the population and then placing an embargo on them to deny them access to power or medical supplies is certainly the behavior of an enlightened society.

It's cool AJ, Fox News said it was OK so I believe it too. No Spin Zone FTW.

[yojimbo7248]

you should start a pakistan vs india poll. I'm with the denim sheiks.

good idea. that would make much more sense and I would also be with the denim sheiks.

On the Israel/Palestinian issue, I just got back to the US from Europe. I am amazed at difference between the US and European news media Gaza coverage.

I voted for watchlist because most often I find it better to bow out of conversations about Israel and Palestinians. Conversations get heated very quickly and I see pig-headedness on both sides thanks to tribalism, historical sense of vicitmhood, and a belief that God is on their side. I lean more to the Israeli side because you can find more liberal, atheist Israelis who want a secular, rational solution than Palestinians. It is mostly the settlers that frustrate me on the Jewish side. I do, however, sympathize with Palestinian frustration and think that Israel is unjustly punishing common people for supporting Hamas.

[sailor]

how does the coverage differ? one thing to remember is it's a lot closer to europe, so that may play a factor, depending on what you mean.

[A.J.]

how does the coverage differ?

They actually show the Palestinian side of things.

[TheMojoPin]

I voted for the "everybody fuck" option. If there was a general Palestinian option I would have picked that.

[yojimbo7248]

They actually show the Palestinian side of things.

exaclty. I was going to write exactly that before I saw your post.

[razorboy]

I don't care for either.

[K.C.]

Can I get odds on the field? 15-1? 20-1?

I have a good feeling about a stray Pakistani nuke wiping out the entire region.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Walling off a segment of the population and then placing an embargo on them to deny them access to power or medical supplies is certainly the behavior of an enlightened society.

Oh - who do you speak of? Israel or the other border state of Gaza...Egypt!

And when did Egypt close the border with Gaza? When Hamas took it over!

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT_GAZA?SITE=VANOV&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
(http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT_GAZA?SITE=VANOV&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

Who can support these Hamas idiots? Fuck them.

Israeli aggression? What a joke! If Hamas stopped firing rockets into Israel then the "Gazans" would left be alone to whatever the fuck happens to them.

Israel pulled outta there - what 2-3 years ago - and left them alone. Let Egypt - and their fucking border with Gaza - and the rich Arab oil sheiks support the poor common people of Gaza.

Israel wants nothing to do with Gaza!

They just keep forgetting a simple fact - don't fuck with the Israelis!

[TheMojoPin]

Oh - who do you speak of? Israel or the other border state of Gaza...Egypt!

And when did Egypt close the border with Gaza? When Hamas took it over!

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT_GAZA?SITE=VANOV&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
(http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT_GAZA?SITE=VANOV&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

Who can support these Hamas idiots? Fuck them.

Israeli aggression? What a joke! If Hamas stopped firing rockets into Israel then the "Gazans" would left be alone to whatever the fuck happens to them.

Israel pulled outta there - what 2-3 years ago - and left them alone. Let Egypt - and their fucking border with Gaza - and the rich Arab oil sheiks support the poor common people of Gaza.

Israel wants nothing to do with Gaza!

They just keep forgetting a simple fact - don't fuck with the Israelis!

It's not just the Gaza Strip.

[SonOfSmeagol]

It's not just the Gaza Strip.

Ya, but isn't this thread about Israel vs. Hamas? And where is Hamas but the Gaza Strip (and Iran and Syria)? What does "it's" mean? (Bill Clinton coulda said that :smoke:)

[TheMojoPin]

Ya, but isn't this thread about Israel vs. Hamas? And where is Hamas but the Gaza Strip (and Iran and Syria)? What does "it's" mean? (Bill Clinton coulda said that :smoke:)

"It" obviously refers to the entire situation.

And as many of us have pointed out, trying to boil this down to just "Israel vs. Hamas" is a silly thing to try and do and ultimately not very realistic. Israel doesn't just "fight Hamas," and they're certainly not only doing that now.

[SonOfSmeagol]

"It" obviously refers to the entire situation.

And as many of us have pointed out, trying to boil this down to just "Israel vs. Hamas" is a silly thing to try and do and ultimately not very realistic. Israel doesn't just "fight Hamas," and they're certainly not only doing that now.

Well, this specific situation is about Israel vs. Hamas.

And, not to personally call you out, but you have offered no evidence or history of why you can't seem to call it one way or the other - in this specific situation.

How can one offer any kind of support - however tacit and lukewarm as expressed in mild opposition to Israeli actions - to Hamas and the like?

Overall, I see Israel as an extremely important ally to U.S., in every geopolitical sense. And yes, oil is a part of that, that's reality.

I see Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, etc. etc. as terrorist gov'ts/orgs that have no future in the civilized world.

The everyday people are another matter. They need to rise up and stop these assholes from launching rockets, suicide bombers, etc. from their schoolyards, backyards, places of worship, etc. Then maybe they won't die when Israel retaliates. Too bad, but there it is.

And why can't their rich fucking compatriots support them and their everyday needs? Who is holding them down, after all? Don't they have enough oil money. Well, don't they?

Israel is not targeting civilians, the other side is. Israel has not been afraid of retaliation or the resulting "collateral damage", and they shouldn't be. Fuck em

Here's what I think, If Hamas keeps firing rockets, then Israel should progressively level Gaza 1/4 mile at a time until they reach the Egypt border. They might just do it too, with all the troops massed there and lessons learned from Lebanon. They could drop leaflets or whatever to give notice to civilians. But let the Gazans fucking flee right into Egypt and overrun the closed border there. Then maybe Hamas will get the message - but I kind of doubt it. Anyway it'll make a nice parking lot for a Walmart there. Or a Target. Or just a desert without terrorists - that'll do too.

One more vote for Israel - don't fuck with 'em and Hamas can go fuck a goat.

[TheMojoPin]

Well, this specific situation is about Israel vs. Hamas.

And, not to personally call you out, but you have offered no evidence or history of why you can't seem to call it one way or the other - in this specific situation.

Because it's a stupid question. Nobody is going to seriously side with Hamas, yet it's being presented like all Palestinians = Hamas. That's intellectually dishonest.

How can one offer any kind of support - however tacit and lukewarm as expressed in mild opposition to Israeli actions - to Hamas and the like?

Nobody is supporting Hamas here.

The everyday people are another matter. They need to rise up and stop these assholes from launching rockets, suicide bombers, etc. from their schoolyards, backyards, places of worship, etc. Then maybe they won't die when Israel retaliates. Too bad, but there it is.

What motivation is there for a majority of Palestinians to totally reject a group like Hamas? Israel has beaten them down and shoved them aside to the point they effectively have nothing. Even when ceasefires are called, Israel always has and continues to treat all Palestinians as second class citizens or worse in their own homeland. They are effectively shown again and again that they have nothing and basically are nothing by the ruling power that holds all the cards. How realistic is it to simply declare that they need to reject groups like Hamas? When you have nothing and are treated like shit, the option to resist holds infinite more apeal than just suffering in silence.

And why can't their rich fucking compatriots support them and their everyday needs? Who is holding them down, after all? Don't they have enough oil money. Well, don't they?

Strawman. The Arab nations don't give a shit about the Palestinians as anything except a rallying point. And besides, how are they supposed to help them out? Giving them land? Why? Shouldn't a native people be entitled to their own land that they've been continually forced out of and bullied from for the better part of a century now?

Israel is not targeting civilians, the other side is. Israel has not been afraid of retaliation or the resulting "collateral damage", and they shouldn't be. Fuck em

Absolute bullshit. Israel has never, from the mandate days to today, had any qualms about attacking and killing Palestinian civilians. Beyond that, it's like all the treatment of the Palestinians that doesn't kill them "doesn't count." They can be margininalized, unjustly imprisoned, tortured, intimidated, beaten, kicked out of their settlements and lands over and over again, but none of that means anything.

Here's what I think, If Hamas keeps firing rockets, then Israel should progressively level Gaza 1/4 mile at a time until they reach the Egypt border. They might just do it too, with all the troops massed there and lessons learned from Lebanon. They could drop leaflets or whatever to give notice to civilians. But let the Gazans fucking flee right into Egypt and overrun the closed border there. Then maybe Hamas will get the message - but I kind of doubt it. Anyway it'll make a nice parking lot for a Walmart there. Or a Target. Or just a desert without terrorists - that'll do too.

That's a remarkably stupid idea. I see zero reason to dignify it with a counterargument.

[SonOfSmeagol]

How the fuck did you parse the quote like that?? Seems like a lot of work. lol


Because it's a stupid question. Nobody is going to seriously side with Hamas, yet it's being presented like all Palestinians = Hamas. That's intellectually dishonest.

Still - it is the question posed. "Just to simplify things : Israel Vs. Hamas: Who Ya got?" Who is going to live, who is going to die. Who's your dog in the fight? What's yer vote??? C'mon Man!!


Nobody is supporting Hamas here.

That's not clear - but it's a free country


What motivation is there for a majority of Palestinians to totally reject a group like Hamas? Israel has beaten them down and shoved them aside to the point they effectively have nothing. Even when ceasefires are called, Israel always has and continues to treat all Palestinians as second class citizens or worse in their own homeland. They are effectively shown again and again that they have nothing and basically are nothing by the ruling power that holds all the cards. How realistic is it to simply declare that they need to reject groups like Hamas? When you have nothing and are treated like shit, the option to resist holds infinite more apeal than just suffering in silence.

What motivation???? How can any civilized person NOT totally reject Hamas. Even Barry Obama does. What and where is the ruling power, right now, where Israel holds over the Pals? Gaza? NO West Bank? NO Where? You're talking history - decades ago What about NOW?


Strawman. The Arab nations don't give a shit about the Palestinians as anything except a rallying point. And besides, how are they supposed to help them out? Giving them land? Why? Shouldn't a native people be entitled to their own land that they've been continually forced out of and bullied from for the better part of a century now?

Give a shit? Land? Their own land? Excuse me but reference the UN and the exalted International Community for definition of the State of Israel - how about that - it exists!l. Palestine is also there but doesn't geographically overlap Israel!! How about the medical supplies and food and what the fuck else that you say Israel is "blocking" from getting to Gaza? What about that? Those people are living in cardboard fucking shacks and that's Israel's fault???? HA


Absolute bullshit. Israel has never, from the mandate days to today, had any qualms about attacking and killing Palestinian civilians. Beyond that, it's like all the treatment of the Palestinians that doesn't kill them "doesn't count." They can be margininalized, unjustly imprisoned, tortured, intimidated, beaten, kicked out of their settlements and lands over and over again, but none of that means anything.

Platitudes - where's the evidence. The old days - decades ago yes I'll give you that but recently? In the last say twenty years maybe?


That's a remarkably stupid idea. I see zero reason to dignify it with a counterargument.
That's called war. The side with the bigger and best weapons wins. Who said war wasn't stupid? But I'm for the winner in this case and all the "disproportionate force" it takes.


I have to add - what's yer solution to this specific situation right here, right now. I offered one - however "stupid" it may be, but what do you say man?

[TheMojoPin]

How the fuck did you parse the quote like that?? Seems like a lot of work. lol

Just place the quote tags around the section you want to quote. Same as shading them in a different color.

Because it's a stupid question. Nobody is going to seriously side with Hamas, yet it's being presented like all Palestinians = Hamas. That's intellectually dishonest.

Still - it is the question posed. "Just to simplify things : Israel Vs. Hamas: Who Ya got?" Who is going to live, who is going to die. Who's your dog in the fight? What's yer vote??? C'mon Man!!

That latter unbolded part in't the question, and if it was it would be even dumber. Again, it's a ridiculous question because nobdy is going to seriously pick Hamas. The situation there is so much bigger than "Israel vs. Hamas."

Nobody is supporting Hamas here.

That's not clear - but it's a free country

It's very clear. Who is seriously supporting Hamas here?

What motivation is there for a majority of Palestinians to totally reject a group like Hamas? Israel has beaten them down and shoved them aside to the point they effectively have nothing. Even when ceasefires are called, Israel always has and continues to treat all Palestinians as second class citizens or worse in their own homeland. They are effectively shown again and again that they have nothing and basically are nothing by the ruling power that holds all the cards. How realistic is it to simply declare that they need to reject groups like Hamas? When you have nothing and are treated like shit, the option to resist holds infinite more apeal than just suffering in silence.

What motivation???? How can any civilized person NOT totally reject Hamas. Even Barry Obama does. What and where is the ruling power, right now, where Israel holds over the Pals? Gaza? NO West Bank? NO Where? You're talking history - decades ago What about NOW?

History? What are you talking about? The lives of the Palestinian people exist and revole around the whims of Israel. Your coninued insistence that they simply "reject" Hamas shows a profound lack of care or understanding of just how Palestinian lives are shaped over there.

Strawman. The Arab nations don't give a shit about the Palestinians as anything except a rallying point. And besides, how are they supposed to help them out? Giving them land? Why? Shouldn't a native people be entitled to their own land that they've been continually forced out of and bullied from for the better part of a century now?

Give a shit? Land? Their own land? Excuse me but reference the UN and the exalted International Community for definition of the State of Israel - how about that - it exists!l. Palestine is also there but doesn't geographically overlap Israel!! How about the medical supplies and food and what the fuck else that you say Israel is "blocking" from getting to Gaza? What about that? Those people are living in cardboard fucking shacks and that's Israel's fault???? HA

There was nothing in the mndate or the UN resolutions about kicking the native Arab population around, and yet that's what has happened and continues to happen. And actually, yes, the appalling conditions faced by most Palestinians are largely the fault of Israel.

Absolute bullshit. Israel has never, from the mandate days to today, had any qualms about attacking and killing Palestinian civilians. Beyond that, it's like all the treatment of the Palestinians that doesn't kill them "doesn't count." They can be margininalized, unjustly imprisoned, tortured, intimidated, beaten, kicked out of their settlements and lands over and over again, but none of that means anything.

Platitudes - where's the evidence. The old days - decades ago yes I'll give you that but recently? In the last say twenty years maybe?

"The old days?" What gives you the idea that any of what I'm talking about stopped?

That's a remarkably stupid idea. I see zero reason to dignify it with a counterargument.
That's called war. The side with the bigger and best weapons wins. Who said war wasn't stupid? But I'm for the winner in this case and all the "disproportionate force" it takes.


I have to add - what's yer solution to this specific situation right here, right now. I offered one - however "stupid" it may be, but what do you say man?

Anyone who clams they have "THE solutions" to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is lying to themselves and everyone else. I do know that systemtically wiping out massive segments of people is a moronic way to "fight terrorism." I also know that the biggest steps have to be taken by Israel. They have almost all the power. Right now they are offering no counter to the extremist rhetoric with their reprehensible treatment of the local Arab population.

[underdog]

How can any civilized person NOT totally reject Hamas. Even Barry Obama does.

This comment confuses me so much.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Just place the quote tags around the section you want to quote. Same as shading them in a different color.



That latter unbolded part in't the question, and if it was it would be even dumber. Again, it's a ridiculous question because nobdy is going to seriously pick Hamas. The situation there is so much bigger than "Israel vs. Hamas."



It's very clear. Who is seriously supporting Hamas here?



History? What are you talking about? The lives of the Palestinian people exist and revole around the whims of Israel. Your coninued insistence that they simply "reject" Hamas shows a profound lack of care or understanding of just how Palestinian lives are shaped over there.



There was nothing in the mndate or the UN resolutions about kicking the native Arab population around, and yet that's what has happened and continues to happen. And actually, yes, the appalling conditions faced by most Palestinians are largely the fault of Israel.



"The old days?" What gives you the idea that any of what I'm talking about stopped?



Anyone who clams they have "THE solutions" to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is lying to themselves and everyone else. I do know that systemtically wiping out massive segments of people is a moronic way to "fight terrorism." I also know that the biggest steps have to be taken by Israel. They have almost all the power. Right now they are offering no counter to the extremist rhetoric with their reprehensible treatment of the local Arab population.


What can I say? I profoundly disagree with your assertions on pretty much everything. It's not that complicated really - Hamas and the like are not "good" in any way shape or form. A simple truth - they're asshole terrorists who should be shunned and wiped away like pests. The common people wherever they reside should be taken care of by those that care for them. Our good ally Israel as a country and a people are not asshole terrorists.

I asked for simple recent evidence of your assertions and you provided none. I asked for a simple vote one way or another and you can't give it. I asked for A solution and you can't give something, just one idea or approach, other than to say to say it's pretty much Israel's fault.

[TheMojoPin]

What can I say? I profoundly disagree with your assertions on pretty much everything. It's not that complicated really - Hamas and the like are not "good" in any way shape or form.

Nobody here is saying that they're "good." Stop framing your points with useless strawmen that aren't applicable to what's being said by anyone here. What I'm saying is that I understand why they exist and why there is support for them amongst many of the Palestinians.

A simple truth - they're asshole terrorists who should be shunned and wiped away like pests.

It's not that simple. Nothing in this conflict is that simple. If you continue to dismiss it as such, I don't know how you can expect to have anyone seriously debate you on this issue. I do agree that ideally they should not have the support they do, but the circumstances as to why they exit and why they are supported simply cannot be ignored or "swept away." You cannot sweep away ideology. This is not a war that cannot be fought like a conventional war.

The common people wherever they reside should be taken care of by those that care for them. Our good ally Israel as a country and a people are not asshole terrorists.

I asked for simple recent evidence of your assertions and you provided none. I asked for a simple vote one way or another and you can't give it. I asked for A solution and you can't give something, just one idea or approach, other than to say to say it's pretty much Israel's fault.

You asked for a vote? This isn't your poll.

You want evidence that flies completely in the face of what you're claiming? Here, have at it. (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/) I already know anything I posted would be met wih some variation of "oh, that's biased" or something similar. There's zero chance you accept any data that shows how wrong you are.

I told you, anyone who claims to have "the solution" to this conflict is full of shit. What I do feel is that the first and biggest steps have to be taken by Israel because they are the dominant power in this conflict and they hold almost all the cards.

[Recyclerz]

What can I say? I profoundly disagree with your assertions on pretty much everything. It's not that complicated really - Hamas and the like are not "good" in any way shape or form.

Nobody here is saying that they're "good." Stop framing your points with useless strawmen that aren't applicable to what's being said by anyone here. What I'm saying is that I understand why they exist and why there is support for them amongst many of the Palestinians.

Son of Smeagol is falling into the trap of the Bushies, seeing the world as a manichean battle of Good v. Evil, which is promoted by the laziness of the mainstream media in the US.

Now I don't like Hamas. In my opinion, it is a narrow minded cult that wants to wish away the modern, secular world and encourages killing innocent civilians as an acceptable practice to achieve its ends. However, I can see that they are also the only entity that is providing social services (food, medicine, employment, education - even if it is only indoctrination, etc.) to the Palestinians in Gaza and, thanks to the foreign policy blunders of the Bush Administration, are basically the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. And the Americans and Israelis can't wish that away either.

If the Israelis think they can decapitate the leadership of Hamas, I think the only possible American response at this point in time is to avert our gaze, temporarily, and hope that the Israelis get the real bad guys. But if there is not a new political paradigm ready to go soon afterwards that would be at least as appealing as Hamas to the average Palestinian that the Israelis (and us) can fill the vacuum with, this current exercise isn't much more than killing Arabs. And if it isn't much more successful than Israel's efforts to teach Hezbollah a lesson in Lebanon, then Hamas with the points looks like the better bet. :unsure:

[SonOfSmeagol]

Nobody here is saying that they're "good." Stop framing your points with useless strawmen that aren't applicable to what's being said by anyone here. What I'm saying is that I understand why they exist and why there is support for them amongst many of the Palestinians.



It's not that simple. Nothing in this conflict is that simple. If you continue to dismiss it as such, I don't know how you can expect to have anyone seriously debate you on this issue. I do agree that ideally they should not have the support they do, but the circumstances as to why they exit and why they are supported simply cannot be ignored or "swept away." You cannot sweep away ideology. This is not a war that cannot be fought like a conventional war.



You asked for a vote? This isn't your poll.

You want evidence that flies completely in the face of what you're claiming? Here, have at it. (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/) I already know anything I posted would be met wih some variation of "oh, that's biased" or something similar. There's zero chance you accept any data that shows how wrong you are.

I told you, anyone who claims to have "the solution" to this conflict is full of shit. What I do feel is that the first and biggest steps have to be taken by Israel because they are the dominant power in this conflict and they hold almost all the cards.

I stand by everything I said. My opinion is what is it is. There is "good" and there is "evil" Period. I'm not debating terrorists with you - they are what they are. And there is NO EXCUSE for support of them - NONE. I say SWEEP the asshole terrorists away - that is what I say and it CAN be done and it HAS been done in the past.

Fight it the way it needs to be fought - till the bitter end.

It's not my poll but so the fuck what? It's a poll.

Evidence - ifamericansknew is not evidence - it's weak and not a credible NEWS source and is NOT full "data". Where the fuck are the # of asshole rockets fired into Israeli cities and suicide bomber deaths?? It doesn't show "how wrong I am" even less than it shows " how right you are". Can't you even find something in the beloved NYT or LAtimes?

[Death Metal Moe]

it HAS been done in the past.


Where?

[SonOfSmeagol]

Son of Smeagol is falling into the trap of the Bushies, seeing the world as a manichean battle of Good v. Evil, which is promoted by the laziness of the mainstream media in the US.

Now I don't like Hamas. In my opinion, it is a narrow minded cult that wants to wish away the modern, secular world and encourages killing innocent civilians as an acceptable practice to achieve its ends. However, I can see that they are also the only entity that is providing social services (food, medicine, employment, education - even if it is only indoctrination, etc.) to the Palestinians in Gaza and, thanks to the foreign policy blunders of the Bush Administration, are basically the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. And the Americans and Israelis can't wish that away either.

If the Israelis think they can decapitate the leadership of Hamas, I think the only possible American response at this point in time is to avert our gaze, temporarily, and hope that the Israelis get the real bad guys. But if there is not a new political paradigm ready to go soon afterwards that would be at least as appealing as Hamas to the average Palestinian that the Israelis (and us) can fill the vacuum with, this current exercise isn't much more than killing Arabs. And if it isn't much more successful than Israel's efforts to teach Hezbollah a lesson in Lebanon, then Hamas with the points looks like the better bet. :unsure:

Fall into the trap? ah yes I am a brainwashed bushie (manichean?) and am incapable of forming my own opinions - what a fucking joke.

The only entity that is providing social services! Sure - Hilter build great roads and Stalin's trains ran on time - oh excuse me no comparison. but an asshole is an asshole

Blunders of Bush put Hamas into power! :lol:

Avert our gaze and hope! :lol: :lol: like we're not providing sat images and other intell to wipe em away - keep it up!

[underdog]

There is "good" and there is "evil" Period. I'm not debating terrorists with you - they are what they are.

They hate our freedom.

How can any civilized person NOT totally reject Hamas. Even Barry Obama does.

And this is still confusing me. Are you saying Obama uncivilized? Or he supports terrorist organizations normally?

[Death Metal Moe]

And this is still confusing me. Are you saying Obama uncivilized? Or he supports terrorist organizations normally?

I think the problem is he's a Muslim so ya know, he's totally biased.

[SonOfSmeagol]

And this is still confusing me. Are you saying Obama uncivilized? Or he supports terrorist organizations normally?

Jury's still out

http://www.thestar.com/World/Columnist/article/535239

[Slumbag]

Jury's still out

http://www.thestar.com/World/Columnist/article/535239

Why would the fact (even though I doubt it's true) that he talked to someone means that he supports someone.
I'm not trying to argue with you, I just want to know.

[Recyclerz]

Fall into the trap? ah yes I am a brainwashed bushie (manichean?) and am incapable of forming my own opinions - what a fucking joke.

The only entity that is providing social services! Sure - Hilter build great roads and Stalin's trains ran on time - oh excuse me no comparison. but an asshole is an asshole

Blunders of Bush put Hamas into power! :lol:

Avert our gaze and hope! :lol: :lol: like we're not providing sat images and other intell to wipe em away - keep it up!

I am glad that in 20 days there won't be any important governments in power that share your worldview (and that includes Israel). :bye:

[Death Metal Moe]

Well since you ignored it, I'll ask again.

[QUOTE=SonOfSmeagol;2040534]Iit HAS been done in the past.
[QUOTE]

Where?

[Death Metal Moe]

Why would the fact (even though I doubt it's true) that he talked to someone means that he supports someone.
I'm not trying to argue with you, I just want to know.

Because Bush labeled them "Evil" and anyone who tries to talk to someone the right has labeled is just as bad as the terrorists.

Ya know, because this fucking bullshit "Cowboy" attitude thsi cunt has applied to world affairs the past 8 years has gone so well.

[hedges]

I think the problem is he's a Muslim so ya know, he's totally biased.
Obama has been going to the same Christian church for the last 20 years. He says he's Christian not Muslim.

[yojimbo7248]

I am glad that in 20 days there won't be any important governments in power that share your worldview (and that includes Israel). :bye:

Amen. It is so much better reading rantings about turning the Gaza Strip into a parking lot or how 'Barry' is a terrorist supporting Muslim now that they are voices from the political wilderness.

[TheMojoPin]

Evidence - ifamericansknew is not evidence - it's weak and not a credible NEWS source and is NOT full "data". Where the fuck are the # of asshole rockets fired into Israeli cities and suicide bomber deaths?? It doesn't show "how wrong I am" even less than it shows " how right you are". Can't you even find something in the beloved NYT or LAtimes?

And there it is. The site I provodied links to all of the sources of their data, much of which actually comes from Israeli organizations. I'd like to know why they're "weak" sources of information, and why you can declare that only "news sources" count as evidence.

The statistics are the statistics.

[A.J.]

Overall, I see Israel as an extremely important ally to U.S., in every geopolitical sense. And yes, oil is a part of that, that's reality.

Israel is hardly an oil producer. The only value they are to the U.S. is that they get cutting-edge defense technology and equipment from us. Well, if they're not stealing from us that is.

However, I can see that they are also the only entity that is providing social services (food, medicine, employment, education - even if it is only indoctrination, etc.) to the Palestinians in Gaza and, thanks to the foreign policy blunders of the Bush Administration, are basically the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people.

Let's be fair here. It's not JUST Bush's fault. It's ALL Administrations and politicians who have failed. We give half-assed support to the Palestinians because politicians in AMerica are beholden to the Jewish vote to get elected and to stay elected. Anything less than unconditional support for Israel is political suicide.

And because Fatah under Arafat hoarded money for so long, the Palestinians got fed up and turned to HAMAS.

Sure - Hilter build great roads and Stalin's trains ran on time

Mussolini made the trains run on time.

[mendyweiss]

Israel is hardly an oil producer. The only value they are to the U.S. is that they get cutting-edge defense technology and equipment from us. Well, if they're not stealing from us that is.



Let's be fair here. It's not JUST Bush's fault. It's ALL Administrations and politicians who have failed. We give half-assed support to the Palestinians because politicians in AMerica are beholden to the Jewish vote to get elected and to stay elected. Anything less than unconditional support for Israel is political suicide.

And because Fatah under Arafat hoarded money for so long, the Palestinians got fed up and turned to HAMAS.



Mussolini made the trains run on time.

I'm pretty sure A.J. stands for either :

Abdul Jabbar or

Alfred Jodl
;

[A.J.]

I dared to speak out against Israel. That means I'm an Arab and a Nazi!!

LOLZ1!!!!

[mendyweiss]

I dared to speak out against Israel. That means I'm an Arab and a Nazi!!

LOLZ1!!!!

No, just a schmuck

[TheMojoPin]

No, just a schmuck

Why, because he disagrees with many of Israel's policies towards the Palestinians?

[A.J.]

No, just a schmuck

That's a compelling argument and I now realize how completely wrong I've been.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to give some money to AIPAC as penance for my misguided thinking.

[west milly Tom]

Where is the debate here? Hamas is labled a terrorist organization because they're fucking terrorists. They kill civilians blowing up buses and hotels. The world hates Israel but Lipini is doing the right thing here. What do you think our government would do if we got rocketed by Mexico everyday for a few years?

[underdog]

Obama has been going to the same Christian church for the last 20 years. He says he's Christian not Muslim.

I think Moe was making fun of one of the posters with that comment.

[A.J.]

What do you think our government would do if we got rocketed by Mexico everyday for a few years?

Put up a bigger fence?

[west milly Tom]

Put up a bigger fence?


:lol:

[Recyclerz]

Let's be fair here. It's not JUST Bush's fault. It's ALL Administrations and politicians who have failed. We give half-assed support to the Palestinians because politicians in AMerica are beholden to the Jewish vote to get elected and to stay elected. Anything less than unconditional support for Israel is political suicide.

And because Fatah under Arafat hoarded money for so long, the Palestinians got fed up and turned to HAMAS.


I agree that Hamas' pimp hand in the Gaza strip (and its increasing strength in the West Bank) isn't all Bush's fault. My comment was a short-hand swipe at the Bush/Rice insistence that the Palestinians hold parlimentary elections at a time when Abbas' old, corrupt & busted Fatah party (inherited from Arafat) had nothing to offer the regular people, basically ensuring a Hamas victory, handing them the imprimatur of legitimacy as a victor in a real democratic election.

[Syd]

Where is the debate here? Hamas is labled a terrorist organization because they're fucking terrorists. They kill civilians blowing up buses and hotels. The world hates Israel but Lipini is doing the right thing here. What do you think our government would do if we got rocketed by Mexico everyday for a few years?

For starters, ever wonder why Hamas is firing rockets?

Gaza is worse than the Warsaw Ghetto.

Next up, the entire situation is basically

STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS

Israel is every bit as evil as any government currently going. Likud are a bunch of crypto-fascist assholes who profit from the suffering.

edit:
Forgot to mention, Israel is bombing homes and public buildings under the guise of "well, terrorists live there" without any shred of evidence. It's simply violence for the sake of violence. Violence to breed future Hamas bombers. Violence to continue Israel's bullshit economy.

[west milly Tom]

For starters, ever wonder why Hamas is firing rockets?

Gaza is worse than the Warsaw Ghetto.

Next up, the entire situation is basically

STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS STOP HITTING YOURSELF HAMAS

Israel is every bit as evil as any government currently going. Likud are a bunch of crypto-fascist assholes who profit from the suffering.

edit:
Forgot to mention, Israel is bombing homes and public buildings under the guise of "well, terrorists live there" without any shred of evidence. It's simply violence for the sake of violence. Violence to breed future Hamas bombers. Violence to continue Israel's bullshit economy.



Simply incorrect. The Palestinian people have made their own beds. Hamas has brought destruction and wrought famine on their own people. The evil lies with them. Israel has been firing warning shots and placing phone calls to targets before hitting any public buildings. Does Hamas place any phone calls before strapping bombs to homicide bombers and blowing up a crowded market?

[Syd]

Simply incorrect. The Palestinian people have made their own beds. Hamas has brought destruction and wrought famine on their own people. The evil lies with them. Israel has been firing warning shots and placing phone calls to targets before hitting any public buildings. Does Hamas place any phone calls before strapping bombs to homicide bombers and blowing up a crowded market?

Why is it simply incorrect?

The way Gaza is partitioned it isn't self-reliant. Israel controls it and allows it to have barely livable conditions. You can say that it's Hamas' fault that its like that, but it has more to do with geography and the Arab-Israeli wars when Israel made land grabs to control water supplies. Hamas is the natural evolution in that situation. If a brutal, oppressive government were cordoning off areas in America or preventing supplies from reaching it the same thing would have happened. Though in America it wouldn't have been called Hamas. Maybe something like Sons of Liberty or Patriots since it's a different language.

Just because America got to be pissed off about English taxes to prevent French colonialism doesn't mean Palestine can't be pissed off about Israel. The world is a complex place and it doesn't all boil down to the good guys and terrorists. There are just simply people.

[west milly Tom]

Why is it simply incorrect?

The way Gaza is partitioned it isn't self-reliant. Israel controls it and allows it to have barely livable conditions. You can say that it's Hamas' fault that its like that, but it has more to do with geography and the Arab-Israeli wars when Israel made land grabs to control water supplies. Hamas is the natural evolution in that situation. If a brutal, oppressive government were cordoning off areas in America or preventing supplies from reaching it the same thing would have happened. Though in America it wouldn't have been called Hamas. Maybe something like Sons of Liberty or Patriots since it's a different language.

Just because America got to be pissed off about English taxes to prevent French colonialism doesn't mean Palestine can't be pissed off about Israel. The world is a complex place and it doesn't all boil down to the good guys and terrorists. There are just simply people.



While I see some validity in your point, I'm not a big subscriber to Cultural Relativisim. Israel has a right to quell revolution within its own borders. Their seemingly heavy handed response is long overdue. Hamas militants propagate, "Israel Must Die" daily, and for many years now. The Arabs chose to cede from Israel, but look to Israel to support them even as they attack. That's not how it works.
And, Sons of Liberty, Patriots were revolting against a tyrannical King an ocean away. Not a democratic government right across the street.

[foodcourtdruide]

Why is it simply incorrect?

The way Gaza is partitioned it isn't self-reliant. Israel controls it and allows it to have barely livable conditions. You can say that it's Hamas' fault that its like that, but it has more to do with geography and the Arab-Israeli wars when Israel made land grabs to control water supplies. Hamas is the natural evolution in that situation. If a brutal, oppressive government were cordoning off areas in America or preventing supplies from reaching it the same thing would have happened. Though in America it wouldn't have been called Hamas. Maybe something like Sons of Liberty or Patriots since it's a different language.

Just because America got to be pissed off about English taxes to prevent French colonialism doesn't mean Palestine can't be pissed off about Israel. The world is a complex place and it doesn't all boil down to the good guys and terrorists. There are just simply people.

This is really well put. I hate when people try to see the world in black and white, good and evil. Things are always much more complicated than the 6 word headline of the NY Post makes them out ot be. It may make you sleep better at night to believe that every Palestinian being killed in Gaza is a foaming at the mouth Hamas terrorist, however intellectually you know that can't be true. Innocent people are dying.

[Death Metal Moe]

Obama has been going to the same Christian church for the last 20 years. He says he's Christian not Muslim.

hedges, meet sarcasm. I know you guys are gonna be good friends.

[Death Metal Moe]

This is really well put. I hate when people try to see the world in black and white, good and evil. Things are always much more complicated than the 6 word headline of the NY Post makes them out ot be. It may make you sleep better at night to believe that every Palestinian being killed in Gaza is a foaming at the mouth Hamas terrorist, however intellectually you know that can't be true. Innocent people are dying.

At least we got all those 9/11 terrorists in Iraq. I sleep a lot better now.

[Death Metal Moe]

I say SWEEP the asshole terrorists away - that is what I say and it CAN be done and it HAS been done in the past.


I have asked you multiple times to prove that the approach Israel has taken in treating the Palistinians in the Strip has worked as a permanent, positive solution to a very complex situation anywhere else in the world and you ignored my posts everytime.

You sir, are a liar. Period. You will say whatever you have to in order to back up your point of view and you have ZERO room to grow in your own mind. You didn't come here to discuss, teach and learn, you came here to shout your opinion at others until they agree with you or you label them.

Go away.

[A.J.]

Why is it simply incorrect?

The way Gaza is partitioned it isn't self-reliant. Israel controls it and allows it to have barely livable conditions. You can say that it's Hamas' fault that its like that, but it has more to do with geography and the Arab-Israeli wars when Israel made land grabs to control water supplies. Hamas is the natural evolution in that situation. If a brutal, oppressive government were cordoning off areas in America or preventing supplies from reaching it the same thing would have happened. Though in America it wouldn't have been called Hamas. Maybe something like Sons of Liberty or Patriots since it's a different language.

Just because America got to be pissed off about English taxes to prevent French colonialism doesn't mean Palestine can't be pissed off about Israel. The world is a complex place and it doesn't all boil down to the good guys and terrorists. There are just simply people.

Well said.

It may make you sleep better at night to believe that every Palestinian being killed in Gaza is a foaming at the mouth Hamas terrorist, however intellectually you know that can't be true. Innocent people are dying.

And that was kind of the point I wanted to make earlier. There are two sides to every story and you only hear one side of it in America.

BOTH sides are victims because BOTH sides do stupid shit to fan the flames. If this country had the balls to step up and treat both sides as equals and call them on said stupid shit from the start, this conflict could have been resolved decades ago.

The Arabs chose to cede from Israel, but look to Israel to support them even as they attack. That's not how it works.

The Arabs and Israelis were partitioned for the most part (there is a small Arab-Israeli minority).

But maybe they can follow the Native American example and learn to support themselves by opening casinos and selling tax-free cigarettes and fireworks on the lands they've been granted.

[tanless1]

israel, and this wld of been over years ago if the UN wld stop intervening. the thing w/ the isy's is that the "holy" sites wld be open to all. as oppesd to the mus'ys who dismantel anything that cast doubts or disprove the abrhamic's .

[SonOfSmeagol]

I have asked you multiple times to prove that the approach Israel has taken in treating the Palistinians in the Strip has worked as a permanent, positive solution to a very complex situation anywhere else in the world and you ignored my posts everytime.

You sir, are a liar. Period. You will say whatever you have to in order to back up your point of view and you have ZERO room to grow in your own mind. You didn't come here to discuss, teach and learn, you came here to shout your opinion at others until they agree with you or you label them.

Go away.

"prove that the approach Israel has taken in treating the Palistinians in the Strip has worked as a permanent, positive solution to a very complex situation anywhere else in the world"

Huh, did I assert that? Can't seem to find that coming from me.

Your words, not mine. I say continue to target terrorists everywhere, as has been done and is being done e.g., Afghanistan. "sweep" them away like pests. Unfortunately it will never end, but I say keep trying.

So now I'm a "liar and ...and have ZERO room to grow in (my) own mind". I also "shout (my) opinion at others until they agree with (me) or (I) label them"

Label? Who here have I labeled and where? I have, however, now been labeled a liar. By you, sir. Previously, I have been labeled by various others as various forms of bushie, cowboy, neocon, right-wing flunkie, manichean (I love that one - I think that's the good and evil thing - all them big words confuse me), fox news brainwashed, among others I'm sure.

Shout my opinion? shout - no - well maybe a little. opinion - yes and always stated as such. Reference the title of the thread poll "Just to simplify things : Israel Vs. Hamas: Who Ya got?"

I really don't give a fuck if you or anyone else agrees with me or not. Nothing I've said indicates otherwise. "Discuss, teach and learn" - is that in the rule book or something? This is an opinion poll and I expressed it - conversation style. Just to reiterate, manichean style: Hamas-bad, Israel-good.

I really hate parsing while responding, and being parsed while responded to - but get the facts right if your gonna accuse and go personal.

You say "Go away."

I choose to come and go as I please.

[Death Metal Moe]

Huh, did I assert that? Can't seem to find that coming from me.


Your words:

I say SWEEP the asshole terrorists away - that is what I say and it CAN be done and it HAS been done in the past.

You said it HAS worked.

Where? And what kind of "sweep" has worked?

You seem like a pretty smart guy, enlighten me some more. You've been doing such an outstanding job so far.

[JohnGacysCrawlSpace]

I'm a fan of big Jewish titties.

Not so much of people who wipe their asses with their bare hands in the year 2009.

[underdog]

At least we got all those 9/11 terrorists in Iraq. I sleep a lot better now.

I think Sarcastic Death Metal Moe is my new favorite character.

[TheMojoPin]

What do you think our government would do if we got rocketed by Mexico everyday for a few years?

That's a false comparison. The historical context and continued situation are radically different than any kind of current "USA vs. Mexico" scenario. In the end, the confrontation between Mexico and the US was between two established nations. That's not to justify who got what, but the origins of that and how it played out are radically different than what went down and is still going down in Israel/Palestine.

[TheMojoPin]

The Arabs chose to cede from Israel, but look to Israel to support them even as they attack. That's not how it works.
And, Sons of Liberty, Patriots were revolting against a tyrannical King an ocean away. Not a democratic government right across the street.

This "they made their own bed" mentality doesn't make any sense to me. They have next to no power over there and exist at the whims of Israel. You keep talking like they can do what they want or stand on equal footing.

And just because a country has democratic practices doesn't make their actions acceptable. The Palestinians have a democratic government, yet you completely condemn them and say Israel can do as they wish. Double standard?

Besides, isn't a fight for personal freedom and survival and nativist rights much more important when the opressor is right next door and in your midst than instead of being an ocean away?

Overall I find this all ironic since a main reason for the creation of Israel was Jewish settler terrorism that attacked, murdered and blew up a lot of British citizens in Palestine.

[scottinnj]

I'm a fan of big Jewish titties.

Not so much of people who wipe their asses with their bare hands in the year 2009.

I googled jewish titty images, and now I'm a fan too. They're wonderful.

[Syd]

israel, and this wld of been over years ago if the UN wld stop intervening. the thing w/ the isy's is that the "holy" sites wld be open to all. as oppesd to the mus'ys who dismantel anything that cast doubts or disprove the abrhamic's .

??? Muslims protected the Christian sites through the ages. All the religious stuff has been pretty much well respected between everyone who has ran the region.

[Death Metal Moe]

israel, and this wld of been over years ago if the UN wld stop intervening. the thing w/ the isy's is that the "holy" sites wld be open to all. as oppesd to the mus'ys who dismantel anything that cast doubts or disprove the abrhamic's .

You can't even type in English, why should anyone expect you to have a good point either?

You are probably thinking of instances like when the Taliban destroyed Bhuddist statues. That is not the norm for Arabs and Muslims, the Taliban just happens to be a extremist Muslim orgaization.

I personally visited an almost completely Christian city in Syria. There are crosses all over the place and a shrine to a Saint at the top of a hill in a cave where people, Muslim and Christian alike, can come and take some of the water that flows there.

I have my own pictures from the place. I found a kitten and bought it a small container of milk. It happended, I have pictures of it all.

Stop assuming that anyone who doesn't live within our borders or lives within the more Westernized countries we know about are savages with no mind of their own. Civilization began in the Northern Africa/Middle East area. Just because someone doesn't live like you doesn't mean they are any better or worse.

The fucking Fox News/Rush Limbaugh/Anthony Cumia/George Bush attitude toward the rest of the world is enough to make me spit on my own fucking computer screen. Just fucking stop it.

[SonOfSmeagol]

You seem like a pretty smart guy, enlighten me some more. You've been doing such an outstanding job so far.

I seek neither your compliments nor complaints.

Given your previous accusations and 'going personal" as it were - which I have pointed out and so far remain out there for consideration - I now add that I detect more than a tinge of insincere mocking sarcasm in this latest remark.

I have no further use for conversing with you.

[Death Metal Moe]

I seek neither your compliments nor complaints.

Given your previous accusations and 'going personal" as it were - which I have pointed out and so far remain out there for consideration - I now add that I detect more than a tinge of insincere mocking sarcasm in this latest remark.

I have no further use for conversing with you.

Exactly. You have nothing to back yourself up and you have no proof of the statement I asked you to back up with ANYTHING that resembles truth.

Good job chief. Keep up the excellent work.

wow, that's more than a "tinge" don't ya think?

[SonOfSmeagol]

Exactly. You have nothing to back yourself up and you have no proof of the statement I asked you to back up with ANYTHING that resembles truth.

Good job chief. Keep up the excellent work.

wow, that's more than a "tinge" don't ya think?

yawn

To quote the great Willly Wonka:

"Good day sir. I said 'good day'"

[Death Metal Moe]

yawn

To quote the great Willly Wonka:

"Good day sir. I said 'good day'"

Oh good, then you're taking my advice and leaving political discussions to people with actual knowledge of the topic at hand?

That'll really be a lot better for you, ya know?

[SonOfSmeagol]

Oh good, then you're taking my advice and leaving political discussions to people with actual knowledge of the topic at hand?

That'll really be a lot better for you, ya know?

Can I iggy this guy or what?

[TheMojoPin]

SoS, you're really not doing a very good job of arguing your case.

[SonOfSmeagol]

You're entitled to that opinion as I am entitled to mine, which I have stated. It's a personal, passionate opinion, not a case. I seek not to persuade.

[TheMojoPin]

You're entitled to that opinion as I am entitled to mine, which I have stated. It's a personal, passionate opinion, not a case. I seek not to persuade.

You've yet to explain why the data I provided was so easily dismissed despite the fact it explicitly flew in the face of most of the statements you were making.

[SonOfSmeagol]

You've yet to explain why the data I provided was so easily dismissed despite the fact it explicitly flew in the face of most of the statements you were making.

Ok, taking the stats at face value, the Pals are losing more than the Israelis. No big surprise. My statements were about Hamas and how they (Hamas) need to die (oof- there it is). I see very little/nothing in those stats about Hamas and their intentions or impact.

Hamas is a terrorist org, whose stated intent is to destroy Israel. Israel's intent is to destroy Hamas. Again, I pick and support Israel in this fight.

[TheMojoPin]

Ok, taking the stats at face value, the Pals are losing more than the Israelis. No big surprise. My statements were about Hamas and how they (Hamas) need to die (oof- there it is). I see very little/nothing in those stats about Hamas and their intentions or impact.

Hamas is a terrorist org, whose stated intent is to destroy Israel. Israel's intent is to destroy Hamas. Again, I pick and support Israel in this fight.

Except your statements revolve around the ridiculous idea of wiping out large segments of the Palestinian population.

[Death Metal Moe]

Can I iggy this guy or what?

http://www.thespiderawards.com/AwardsPass/WINNERS-NOMINEES/PRO-people/images/IggyPop2.jpg

No need, I did it myself.

[Death Metal Moe]

You're entitled to that opinion as I am entitled to mine, which I have stated. It's a personal, passionate opinion, not a case. I seek not to persuade.

Oh I see. So you're basically saying "I don't have to back a thing I said up, this is just my opinion and I can be as wrong as I want to and you can't do anything about it."

Now I totally understand.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Except your statements revolve around the ridiculous idea of wiping out large segments of the Palestinian population.

Actually, I believe the operative term was "parking lot".

But I'll defer to the current and emerging Israeli approach, they seem to be doing a somewhat effective job at this point of dealing with the attacks on them by the Hamas-holes.

They really should bomb more of the rocket launch sites though.

Hamas, of course, being the current government of Gaza that effectively declared war on Israel when they (Hamas) repeatedly violated the truce.

Maybe this Hamas-hole shoulda stayed at the office:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090101/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians;_ylt=Aony.3pz.b5kgXU52oXvzG EDW7oF

His last words mighta been - "Israel does not exist! OW!"

[scottinnj]

Maybe this Hamas-hole shoulda stayed at the office:


Dude, can I ask you something?

Are you a veteran or something? I'm asking because of the indifference you seem to have on this board about non-americans and how comfortable you are at reminding us that those who live in countries that are home to our enemies are somehow subpar to our level of civility and humanity?

Hamas are bad guys, and Israel has a right to defend herself, and the rocket attacks are unacceptable, and Hamas is the one that violated the cease fire.

I'm just not in favor of annihilating scores of people to kill a certain few. I'm hoping the Israeli invasion of Palestine is done carefully and few civilians are killed while the rocket threat is dealt with.

[Death Metal Moe]

I'm just not in favor of annihilating scores of people to kill a certain few. I'm hoping the Israeli invasion of Palestine is done carefully and few civilians are killed while the rocket threat is dealt with.

Why would they start now?

[TheMojoPin]

Actually, I believe the operative term was "parking lot".

But I'll defer to the current and emerging Israeli approach, they seem to be doing a somewhat effective job at this point of dealing with the attacks on them by the Hamas-holes.

They really should bomb more of the rocket launch sites though.

Hamas, of course, being the current government of Gaza that effectively declared war on Israel when they (Hamas) repeatedly violated the truce.

Maybe this Hamas-hole shoulda stayed at the office:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090101/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians;_ylt=Aony.3pz.b5kgXU52oXvzG EDW7oF

His last words mighta been - "Israel does not exist! OW!"

Not that you give a damn about the 400 or so civilians killed and scores more wounded to take out a relative few. I guess they'll just get stacked to the ever-increasing casuality total that proved you wrong and that you choose to ignore.

[Death Metal Moe]

Not that you give a damn about the 400 or so civilians killed and scores more wounded to take out a relative few. I guess they'll just get stacked to the ever-increasing casuality total that proved you wrong and that you choose to ignore.

Dude, fuck that guy. Seriously. He ignores whatever he can't defend or back up, just leave it at what it is.

[TheMojoPin]

Dude, fuck that guy. Seriously. He ignores whatever he can't defend or back up, just leave it at what it is.

I should.

[scottinnj]

Why would they start now?

One can only hope and pray. Dude, I'm so sick of war, but I know Israel has to do something.

[TheMojoPin]

One can only hope and pray. Dude, I'm so sick of war, but I know Israel has to do something.

They've never stopped "doing" things. That's part of the problem. Even when there's been ceasefires. The violent deaths get all the press, but the slow burning, ongoing tactics that cause perpetual suffering and poverty and misery and anger seem to escape interest.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Not that you give a damn about the 400 or so civilians killed and scores more wounded to take out a relative few. I guess they'll just get stacked to the ever-increasing casuality total that proved you wrong and that you choose to ignore.

Never said I didn't give a damn about that - it's unfortunate. But get your numbers right - I think it's about 250-300 civilians.
Probably matters to those 100-150, don't you think?


You have not "proved me wrong" about anything (or right for that matter), nor I have I ignored you.
By the way I have not asked you to prove me wrong or right about anything. Ever.


IF you refer to ifamericansknew, then this is a definitive source?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/whoweare.html

I can do a web search too, and here's another one just as credible (with some numbers too!):

http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=689705&ct=6478505


While we're at it, here's an interesting one from Sens. Harry Reid and Dick Durbin just today!:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090104/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians;_ylt=ArWuFFcGbDD9kRa3Uhd69p kLewgF

Sens. Harry Reid and Dick Durbin — the top two Democrats in the chamber — and Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell all described Israel's actions as understandable.

"I think what the Israelis are doing is very important," Reid said. "I think this terrorist organization, Hamas, has got to be put away. They've got to come to their senses."

"put away" - interesting choice of words. "put away"...Hmmm. Think he means: "sit at the table and talk', "tell em they're good people, really" I think not.

And, from House Speaker Dem Nancy Pelosi!

http://speaker.house.gov/newsroom/pressreleases?id=0936

"Peace between Israelis and Palestinians cannot result from daily barrages of rocket and mortar fire from Hamas-controlled Gaza. Hamas and its supporters must understand that Gaza cannot and will not be allowed to be a sanctuary for attacks on Israel."

"The United States must continue to do all it can to promote peace in the region and a negotiated settlement to differences between Israelis and Palestinians. Humanitarian needs of all innocent civilians must also be addressed. But when Israel is attacked, the United States must continue to stand strongly with its friend and democratic ally."


I totally support Harry Reid's and Nancy Pelosi's positions! (and Dick Durbin's too)! Shall I have to "prove" that to you now? This, by the way differs in no way from my previous position.


From same yahoo article above - Israeli President Shimon Peres said that Israel had to push forward and that a cease-fire was pointless without a halt to Hamas rocket fire.

"Well, clearly, if there is somebody (who) can stop terror with a different strategy, we shall accept it," he said on ABC's "This Week."


Got any ideas there Einstein?


Oh, interesting too about Egypt's concern for gazans (Remember now - Egypt borders with Gaza too!)

"We in Egypt are not going to contribute to perpetuating the rift (between the Palestinian Authority of Mahmud Abbas and Gaza's Hamas rulers) by opening the Rafah crossing in the absence of the Palestinian Authority and EU observers in violation of the 2005 deal," Mubarak said in a televised speech.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081230/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazaegyptborder_081230191014

"Any role for the Islamic militants on the (Egypt-Gaza) border would be sure to anger the international community and Hamas' archrival, the moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, because it would amount to tacit recognition of Hamas rule in Gaza."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22972508/

Of course all of this too, according to you as best as I can discern, is Israel's fault, and because they have "the most power" it is up to them to solve! Sounds good man!!

[Death Metal Moe]

Wow, 2 US Senators back Israel? Will wonders never cease.

[TheMojoPin]

Never said I didn't give a damn about that - it's unfortunate. But get your numbers right - I think it's about 250-300 civilians.
Probably matters to those 100-150, don't you think?


You have not "proved me wrong" about anything (or right for that matter), nor I have I ignored you.
By the way I have not asked you to prove me wrong or right about anything. Ever.

Actually, you asked me to provide datat to back up my statements becase you said they were wrong. I did just that. You never addressed that.

IF you refer to ifamericansknew, then this is a definitive source?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/whoweare.html

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove there. Is tha supposed to make them look bad? If you can debunk the numbers, do so.

I can do a web search too, and here's another one just as credible (with some numbers too!):

http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=689705&ct=6478505

That is an excellent site. My site actually sites some of their data. What they back up is an idea that nobody here is disagreeing with...Hamas is a damaging political power.

While we're at it, here's an interesting one from Sens. Harry Reid and Dick Durbin just today!:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090104/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians;_ylt=ArWuFFcGbDD9kRa3Uhd69p kLewgF

Sens. Harry Reid and Dick Durbin — the top two Democrats in the chamber — and Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell all described Israel's actions as understandable.

"I think what the Israelis are doing is very important," Reid said. "I think this terrorist organization, Hamas, has got to be put away. They've got to come to their senses."

"put away" - interesting choice of words. "put away"...Hmmm. Think he means: "sit at the table and talk', "tell em they're good people, really" I think not.

None of this refers to anything I or anyone else has brought up here.

And, from House Speaker Dem Nancy Pelosi!

http://speaker.house.gov/newsroom/pressreleases?id=0936

"Peace between Israelis and Palestinians cannot result from daily barrages of rocket and mortar fire from Hamas-controlled Gaza. Hamas and its supporters must understand that Gaza cannot and will not be allowed to be a sanctuary for attacks on Israel."

"The United States must continue to do all it can to promote peace in the region and a negotiated settlement to differences between Israelis and Palestinians. Humanitarian needs of all innocent civilians must also be addressed. But when Israel is attacked, the United States must continue to stand strongly with its friend and democratic ally."


I totally support Harry Reid's and Nancy Pelosi's positions! (and Dick Durbin's too)! Shall I have to "prove" that to you now? This, by the way differs in no way from my previous position.

These are the opinions of two American politicians. I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean or prove in regards to our debates.


From same yahoo article above - Israeli President Shimon Peres said that Israel had to push forward and that a cease-fire was pointless without a halt to Hamas rocket fire.

"Well, clearly, if there is somebody (who) can stop terror with a different strategy, we shall accept it," he said on ABC's "This Week."


Got any ideas there Einstein?

I've already talked aout how I think Israel can take huge steps to ultumately defusing the rhetoric and appeal of a group like Hamas. Longterm solutions should be the goal, not shortterm, hamfisted responses that just make Hamas stronger or create more groups like them.

There are numerous groups in Israel from the younger generation who recognize the self-destructive nature of the old school hardliners who have been running Israel. Nobody thinks Israel should totally put down its arms, but the current cycle accomplishes nothing. These newer groups and organizations give me hope for an eventua "velvet revolution" in Israel that pushes out the old guard that thrives on the atmosphere of fear that the perpetual cycle of violence and suffereing that they propogate creates. It's bullshit that they claim they're acting in defense of Israel, yet their actions and rhetoric are what give the most potent ammunition to scumbag groups like Hamas.


Oh, interesting too about Egypt's concern for gazans (Remember now - Egypt borders with Gaza too!)

"We in Egypt are not going to contribute to perpetuating the rift (between the Palestinian Authority of Mahmud Abbas and Gaza's Hamas rulers) by opening the Rafah crossing in the absence of the Palestinian Authority and EU observers in violation of the 2005 deal," Mubarak said in a televised speech.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081230/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazaegyptborder_081230191014

"Any role for the Islamic militants on the (Egypt-Gaza) border would be sure to anger the international community and Hamas' archrival, the moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, because it would amount to tacit recognition of Hamas rule in Gaza."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22972508/

Of course all of this too, according to you as best as I can discern, is Israel's fault, and because they have "the most power" it is up to them to solve! Sounds good man!!

You're the one that keeps trying to make this as simple as wose "fault" this is. My point has been is that Israel isn't the white knight many want them to be in this situation and that they ultimately have the most power to take steps towards lasting LONGTERM solutions to the problems posed by groups like Hamas.

[foodcourtdruide]

You're the one that keeps trying to make this as simple as wose "fault" this is. My point has been is that Israel isn't the white knight many want them to be in this situation and that they ultimately have the most power to take steps towards lasting LONGTERM solutions to the problems posed by groups like Hamas.

Do you think it's a need to see things in black and white that causes his type of thinking? I thought it was kinda funny when he quoted the two senate democrates as if that proved his point. He's trying to reduce this argument to a pro-Israel / anti-Terrorist simple conversation. The issue is far more complicated than that. No one on this board is pro-Hamas, however we all see there is clear suffering of the people in Gaza. The need to assign blame to one specific group while assigning the role of "white knight" to another group simply obfuscates the problem. It's a simple way to look at things and probably plays well in right-wing radio, but it's far from reality and I can't believe that some people don't see through this, especially after what's gone on in the Iraq war.

[TheMojoPin]

Do you think it's a need to see things in black and white that causes his type of thinking? I thought it was kinda funny when he quoted the two senate democrates as if that proved his point. He's trying to reduce this argument to a pro-Israel / anti-Terrorist simple conversation. The issue is far more complicated than that. No one on this board is pro-Hamas, however we all see there is clear suffering of the people in Gaza. The need to assign blame to one specific group while assigning the role of "white knight" to another group simply obfuscates the problem. It's a simple way to look at things and probably plays well in right-wing radio, but it's far from reality and I can't believe that some people don't see through this, especially after what's gone on in the Iraq war.

I don't know, he might just be willfully difficult. He seems to be refusing to see the difference of sympathy for the situation of the Palestinian people and attempting to understand why this cycle continues and why people turn to extremism...and then the actual supporting of terrorist groups by people here. Nobody here is doing the latter. Nobody wants Hamas in charge...some of us simple unerstand the bigger picture of what it means that they are in charge. I suppose it is easier to just make it a "good vs. evil" debate and assume Hamas is in power simply because Palestinians "hate the Jews." Anything else requires a critical ad unflattering examination of the "good guys" in that scenario.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Radio Psychic: Israel's incursion will only temporarily eliminate rocket attacks.

[Recyclerz]

Radio Psychic: Israel's incursion will only temporarily eliminate rocket attacks.

Agreed.

Message Board Psychic: You know what has a better chance of stopping those missles from falling on Israelis' heads? Obama sending Hilary over to Iran to hammer out a comprehensive deal with those debbils while the price of oil is still low and they're not feeling so good about themselves anymore.

[TheMojoPin]

Radio Psychic: Israel's incursion will only temporarily eliminate rocket attacks.

That's crazy talk!

[Syd]

better way to solve it in lieu of re-arranging borders is to have jordan and america exert its considerable influence on both countries to make a fair arrangement of the water supply in the region

[Death Metal Moe]

better way to solve it in lieu of re-arranging borders is to have jordan and america exert its considerable influence on both countries to make a fair arrangement of the water supply in the region

But we never hold Israel to task for anything, so that's not an option at the moment.

[west milly Tom]

better way to solve it in lieu of re-arranging borders is to have jordan and america exert its considerable influence on both countries to make a fair arrangement of the water supply in the region



In other words, take from Israel and give to Gaza. Sickening. Mabye they should give up the Golan Heights too, you know for water fairness. The world is not fooled sir.

[Syd]

In other words, take from Israel and give to Gaza. Sickening. Mabye they should give up the Golan Heights too, you know for water fairness. The world is not fooled sir.

Well yeah, doesn't taking from Israel and giving to Gaza sound a whole lot better than genocide?

[TheMojoPin]

In other words, take from Israel and give to Gaza. Sickening. Mabye they should give up the Golan Heights too, you know for water fairness. The world is not fooled sir.

Or, in other words, take steps to ideally lessening further outbreaks of violence that get people on both sides killed.

And we're not talking about Israel just handing over whatever they have on them...it's a plan to ensure that everyone is getting clean water.

WATER.

I like how one group of people its absolutely fucked economically, socially and medically due to the actions and policies of someone else, yet it's the Israelis "losing" anything that's viewed as being unacceptable.

I'm not talking about Israel just handing anything and everything over. I'm talking about Israel working to not completely fuck over the Palestinian population in terms of work, property and medical care. Doing something as simple as attempting to ensure that everyone has enough clean water is a huge step towards defusing extremist rhetoric.

[west milly Tom]

Or, in other words, take steps to ideally lessening further outbreaks of violence that get people on both sides killed.

And we're not talking about Israel just handing over whatever they have on them...it's a plan to ensure that everyone is getting clean water.

WATER.

I like how one group of people its absolutely fucked economically, socially and medically due to the actions and policies of someone else, yet it's the Israelis "losing" anything that's viewed as being unacceptable.

I'm not talking about Israel just handing anything and everything over. I'm talking about Israel working to not completely fuck over the Palestinian population in terms of work, property and medical care. Doing something as simple as attempting to ensure that everyone has enough clean water is a huge step towards defusing extremist rhetoric.


Call it whatever you want. Your logic is circular and wrong. It's not Israel's fault that it is being attacked , even though you want to say that it is. Appeasement has [/I]never[/I] worked historically. If you remember back, the Palestinian leadership said "if you give us Gaza we'll be happy, and there will be no more attacks." But of course as history has shown us they lied. Gaza is the agressor here. Nothing will pacify the Arab population, not water, not land, not even a submissive Israel, only the complete elimination thereof. Hamas does not even "recognize" Israel. Wake up.

[TheMojoPin]

Call it whatever you want. Your logic is circular and wrong. It's not Israel's fault that it is being attacked , even though you want to say that it is. Appeasement has [/I]never[/I] worked historically. If you remember back, the Palestinian leadership said "if you give us Gaza we'll be happy, and there will be no more attacks." But of course as history has shown us they lied. Gaza is the agressor here. Nothing will pacify the Arab population, not water, not land, not even a submissive Israel, only the complete elimination thereof. Hamas does not even "recognize" Israel. Wake up.

You're jumping all over the place identifying the main aggressors alternately as "Gaza," "Hamas," "the Palestinians" and "the Arabs," which mkes it clear you have no interest in anything except broad condemnations that don't dare turn a critical eye towards the Israeli government and the hardliners.

Nobody wants Hamas to "win." Hamas IS a problem, for everyone. The thing is, however, treating the Palestinians like 2nd class citizens or worse is only going to give groups like Hamas a permanent shelf life. All the Israeli government is doing is willfully perpetuating a cycle that gets its citizens killed.

You also toss out the incorrect assertion that "appeasement has never worked historically." That's a remarkably uninformed and compeltely inaccurate statement that likely hinges on the image pereptuated by the British "appeasing" Nazi Germany before the start of WW2. The failure of that policy there is the significant EXCEPTION, not the rule. "Appeasement" actually has a long history of working exceedinly well in ending prolonged conflict or even avoiding it in the first place. The trick is to find a middle ground that works for everyone involved. I believ that such a thing is possible here. What such an idea does NOT entail, however, are halfassed notions like "giving" the Palestinians Gaza. They were given Gaza, but the Israeli government has done everything possible to make life there as hellish as in the settlements. The Palestinian economy is, of course, hinged on the dominat Israeli economy. As such, it is exceedingly difficult for Palestinians to sustain jobs and own businesses and export and import and rise above anything except complete poverty. Significant medical care is all but nonexistent thanks to Israeli border restrictions and policies. Electrical power is often a luxury as opposed to something most people have access to thanks to, once again, the dominant Israeli economy and their control of most of the regions power supplies. And we've already discussed water, which is also precarious thanks to similar situations. These and many other reasons are why many of the Palestinians ultimately feel little choice but to turn to groups like Hamas. These are cycles that CAN ultimately be broken. It has little to do with surrendering or giving up and everything to do with sharing basic resources so everyone has a shot at just surviving above the poverty level.

Your insistence on talking like the Palestinians have had every opportunity to live autonomous of Israel or have any kind of a fighting chace of not being second class citizens simply is not realistic at all. Jumping to the ambigous notion that this is based mainly on the "elimination" of Israel is you deliberately ignoring the reality of the situation there.

[west milly Tom]

Your insistence on talking like the Palestinians have had every opportunity to live autonomous of Israel or have any kind of a fighting chace of not being second class citizens simply is not realistic at all. Jumping to the ambigous notion that this is based mainly on the "elimination" of Israel is you deliberately ignoring the reality of the situation there.

Once again, completly off the mark. You are focused on the symptoms of the greater problem, not the problem itself. Symptoms like jobs, water, electricity are all a result of the Gazans (which is the correct term here) choice to elect a corrupt leadership. It is not an ambigous notion; it is hard fact.

"Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[5] Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and not religious[6] or antisemitic.[7] However, its founding charter, writings, and many of its public statements[8] reflect the influence of antisemitic conspiracy theories.[9]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

So now that we've established your total incorrectness on this point let's move on. The problem has not arisen out af Israel being a dick, its arisen out of the fact that Israel is hated by everyone in the regoin who's not Jewish/Israli. The government in Gaza is an elected government, elected by a large majority:

Reuters
Posted online: Friday, January 28, 2005 at 1710 hours IST
Updated: Saturday, August 27, 2005 at 1739 hours IST

GAZA, January 28: Islamic militant group Hamas swept nearly two-thirds of the seats in the Gaza Strip's first council elections. (Reuters)

Since they were voted in I'd have to say the citizens made their own choice. Israel is willing to work with Gaza, it is Gaza who is not reciprocating. So should the soloution be to take from Israel still, to limit the damage she should be allowed to inflict? I think not.

[TheMojoPin]

Once again, completly off the mark. You are focused on the symptoms of the greater problem, not the problem itself. Symptoms like jobs, water, electricity are all a result of the Gazans (which is the correct term here) choice to elect a corrupt leadership. It is not an ambigous notion; it is hard fact.

"Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[5] Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and not religious[6] or antisemitic.[7] However, its founding charter, writings, and many of its public statements[8] reflect the influence of antisemitic conspiracy theories.[9]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

So now that we've established your total incorrectness on this point let's move on. The problem has not arisen out af Israel being a dick, its arisen out of the fact that Israel is hated by everyone in the regoin who's not Jewish/Israli. The government in Gaza is an elected government, elected by a large majority:

Reuters
Posted online: Friday, January 28, 2005 at 1710 hours IST
Updated: Saturday, August 27, 2005 at 1739 hours IST

GAZA, January 28: Islamic militant group Hamas swept nearly two-thirds of the seats in the Gaza Strip's first council elections. (Reuters)

Since they were voted in I'd have to say the citizens made their own choice. Israel is willing to work with Gaza, it is Gaza who is not reciprocating. So should the soloution be to take from Israel still, to limit the damage she should be allowed to inflict? I think not.

Not really the best debate tactic to site Wikipedia as a source, particuarly one that is challenged on that site for its information and neutrality.

Secondly, you're arguing a strawman. Nobody is attempting to justify the rhetoric and actions and Hamas. Nobody is denying that the Palestinian people votied in Hamas. What I'm pointing to is the larger questions of why they actually did and what other alternative did the Palestinians legitimately have.

The goal should be to steal the thunder from the rheotirc of groups like Hamas. Groups like Hamas will never go away so long as the hardline Israeli government insists on absuing and beating down any and all Palestinians at every opportunity and on all levels. Is this saying that the Plaestinians aren't responsible for helping this cycle of destruction along? Of course not...they're right in the thick of it and hugely culpable. My continued point is that the Israelis, by being the overwhelming dominant power in that areaand holding all the cards has the most ability, by far, to make the most progress in rooting out the deep seated reasons that allow groups like Hamas to continue and gain power. The Palestinians can't take those stops...they have nothing to offer because, well, they have nothing. All they can offer ceasefires, and when those have been enacted, even for extended periods of time, nothing has changed.

I'm saying that if genuine, longterm change is to be had that benefits BOTH sides, the Israelis have the most power to facilitate it. If they wat to keep halfassing it and sabotaging things as they have, that's their own folly, and nothing will change. You back people ino a corner with nowhere else to go and nothing left, how can you expect them to just tolerate that?

[SonOfSmeagol]

I don't know, he might just be willfully difficult....

I might have just been exposed!

If you're gonna dish up "Just to simplify things : Israel Vs. Hamas: Who Ya got?" I'm gonna jump on it and will continue to do so.

I have strong opinions on the subject, no doubt. And I will continue to express that Hamas has no place whatsoever in the civilized world.

And by sharing that I concur exactly and in every way, and always have, with the the views on this subject with the TOP THREE Dems in Congress my intent was to defuse some of that right-wing bushie crap I keep hearing.


"Mojo's most recent post..".

The Pals may not have every opportunity, but for sure the Hamas government in Gaza had a unique opportunity a couple of years ago when they took over. They could've built roads, schools, etc. in Gaza with the taxes and other funds provided to them, some indirectly by the US via the PA. They could have shown that they do care about the people they govern. Instead they bought, and continue to buy, thousands of rockets costing millions and millions of dollars.

They then continuously fired them, and continue to fire them, into Israel, FULLY AWARE of the consequences. It's because that's who they are - single-minded fanatics who choose to fight from behind their children and the skirts of their women.

Also, I believe that the so-called compatriots of the Pals (e.g, Egypt, etc. etc) could be doing a LOT more, a HELL of a lot more, to help the situation, and that Israel is not the ONLY heavy in the situation. Now, as for water why can't some of those BILLIONS of Pals compatriot $ be used for a pipeline via Egypt or a desalination plant on the coast. I don't know the tech details - but why not?

When Israel opens their borders to extremists, they end up with suicide bombers coming across - every time. That to me. and them, is unacceptable period. They do share resources with the PA, and continued to do so in Gaza until Hamas took over. Even after they unoccupied Gaza.

No excuse that the people (and in the people I include the Pal compatriots) had no other option other than turning to the extremists, and to continue to blame Israel for this is short-sighted.

I'm not sure appeasement works at all in the modern world, and I can't think of an example where it has.

Either they stop with the rockets now or Hamas control over Gaza has to end. Or this crisis will get much worse. I find it amazing that one of their demands (Hamas) for a cease fire is that Israel open it's borders.

I still say - don't fuck with the Israelis!

[TheMojoPin]

I might have just been exposed!

If you're gonna dish up "Just to simplify things : Israel Vs. Hamas: Who Ya got?" I'm gonna jump on it and will continue to do so.

I have strong opinions on the subject, no doubt. And I will continue to express that Hamas has no place whatsoever in the civilized world.

You're arguing with a brick wall. Nobody is countering that wih any kind of pro-Hamas argument.

And by sharing that I concur exactly and in every way, and always have, with the the views on this subject with the TOP THREE Dems in Congress my intent was to defuse some of that right-wing bushie crap I keep hearing.

Another strawman that dodges the actual issues brought up and ultimately has zero to do with the larger questions and discussions some of us are trying to bring up here.

The Pals may not have every opportunity, but for sure the Hamas government in Gaza had a unique opportunity a couple of years ago when they took over. They could've built roads, schools, etc. in Gaza with the taxes and other funds provided to them, some indirectly by the US via the PA. They could have shown that they do care about the people they govern. Instead they bought, and continue to buy, thousands of rockets costing millions and millions of dollars.

Taxed what money? Again, the average Palestinian wallows in poverty. They have little to no economic base. Most major trade is facilitated and controlled by Israel. There is next to no larger economic infrastructure for them to build off of. Everything has been structured so that they are economically reliant on Israel. You talk about them just building whatever they need, as if they can do that in the first place and as if they can succeed wih the way things are currently set up.

They then continuously fired them, and continue to fire them, into Israel, FULLY AWARE of the consequences. It's because that's who they are - single-minded fanatics who choose to fight from behind their children and the skirts of their women.

Again, nobody defending this. I'm talking about longterm steps that ideally strips groups like Hamas of their power.

Also, I believe that the so-called compatriots of the Pals (e.g, Egypt, etc. etc) could be doing a LOT more, a HELL of a lot more, to help the situation, and that Israel is not the ONLY heavy in the situation. Now, as for water why can't some of those BILLIONS of Pals compatriot $ be used for a pipeline via Egypt or a desalination plant on the coast. I don't know the tech details - but why not?

Why can't they have access to the water in their own land?

When Israel opens their borders to extremists, they end up with suicide bombers coming across - every time. That to me. and them, is unacceptable period. They do share resources with the PA, and continued to do so in Gaza until Hamas took over. Even after they unoccupied Gaza.

No excuse that the people (and in the people I include the Pal compatriots) had no other option other than turning to the extremists, and to continue to blame Israel for this is short-sighted.

Who do you expect them to turn to?

I'm not sure appeasement works at all in the modern world, and I can't think of an example where it has.

Because it's largely been abandoned due to the stigma of the term in regards to WW2, foolishly.

Either they stop with the rockets now or Hamas control over Gaza has to end. Or this crisis will get much worse. I find it amazing that one of their demands (Hamas) for a cease fire is that Israel open it's borders.

I still say - don't fuck with the Israelis!

So they go in and remove Hamas with amilitary occupation...then what? This cycle just repeats itself again and again. If the Israeli hardliners actually wanted this to end, they'd try something else.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I hate this parsing - I think a message can be conveyed without word for word response. But anyway...

You're arguing with a brick wall. Nobody is countering that wih any kind of pro-Hamas argument.

No, but there's a lot of understanding for their position and how things came to be where they are. I say no excuse for them at all. Ya - not Pro-Hamas - but can you, will you, condemn them outright? And I stand pro-Israeli in this situation.


Another strawman that dodges the actual issues brought up and ultimately has zero to do with the larger questions and discussions some of us are trying to bring up here.

Not really - I have always bounded my discussions, here in this thread, with the actual specific situation at hand. "Just to simplify things : Israel Vs. Hamas: Who Ya got?" I know you don't like that, but that's how I have approached this specific discussion all along. The larger question is valid, but better suited in another discussion thread perhaps.


Taxed what money? Again, the average Palestinian wallows in poverty. They have little to no economic base. Most major trade is facilitated and controlled by Israel. There is next to no larger economic infrastructure for them to build off of. Everything has been structured so that they are economically reliant on Israel. You talk about them just building whatever they need, as if they can do that in the first place and as if they can succeed wih the way things are currently set up.

I still hold to what I said. They had aid money and our tax $ and UN money and they spent it all on rockets and not the people

Again, nobody defending this. I'm talking about longterm steps that ideally strips groups like Hamas of their power.

I really don't know about that man, but the only thing they respect here and now will be force.

Why can't they have access to the water in their own land?

Not be harsh, but they are in their own land according to the UN. I still say why can't the billions in oil money help them out?

Who do you expect them to turn to?

Civilized leaders, moderate leaders. Maybe like Abbas?


Because it's largely been abandoned due to the stigma of the term in regards to WW2, foolishly.

I only said because you said, and I hate to nitpick and parse, but it "actually has a long history of working exceedinly well in ending prolonged conflict or even avoiding it in the first place"


So they go in and remove Hamas with amilitary occupation...then what? This cycle just repeats itself again and again. If the Israeli hardliners actually wanted this to end, they'd try something else.

I dunno, I know with Hezbollah and Lebanon it stopped after a nasty war a couple of years ago. There's a little more balance there in Lebanon now. Still could fire off at any time. but there's a precarious peace for now. A lot of people died there - on both sides. Maybe people in Gaza will be sick of it too and a moderate gov't will be in place. That's about the best I can see.


Wiki's an OK source for factual info - it's always qualified with limitations and governed pretty well by the masses.


BTW, just a total stab but you're a big fan of Jimmy Carter - are you not? I kind of see him as one of your heroes - and that's cool

[scottinnj]

You're arguing with a brick wall. Nobody is countering that wih any kind of pro-Hamas argument.

No kidding. Everyone on this board wants every Hamas terrorist dead.

But here is our argument. Why is there a blockade of fuel, food and medical supplies to Gaza?

Why have 550 Palestinian civilians been killed and 5 Israeli troops been killed? Why the high number of civilian casualties?

[scottinnj]

Ya - not Pro-Hamas - but can you, will you, condemn them outright? And I stand pro-Israeli in this situation.


Yep. Hamas leaders should be shot on sight.

Carter was a douche.


But Israel is still killing too many civilians.

[NewYorkDragons80]

better way to solve it in lieu of re-arranging borders is to have jordan and america exert its considerable influence on both countries to make a fair arrangement of the water supply in the region

Israel still hasn't made good on its current water agreements with Jordan over damming the Jordan River. So one of the most important historical, religious, and ecological rivers on the planet had its bounty usurped by Israel. That's not really endearing them to anybody. So why make new water treaties if Israel isn't honoring existing ones? I don't think it's extreme to say that in the past 3 years, Fatah and Jordan have surpassed Israel as the most honest brokers in the process.

From today's Washington Post: the 3 state solution (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/04/AR2009010401434.html?hpid=opinionsbox1) by John Bolton. I'm very confident in the ability of the current Kingdom of Jordan to govern the West Bank the way they were unable to from 1948-1967. Provided that the Palestinians have total autonomy on domestic issues, the United Arab Kingdom plan should be put back on the table.

[TheMojoPin]

I Not really - I have always bounded my discussions, here in this thread, with the actual specific situation at hand. "Just to simplify things : Israel Vs. Hamas: Who Ya got?" I know you don't like that, but that's how I have approached this specific discussion all along. The larger question is valid, but better suited in another discussion thread perhaps.

That's a cop-out. If you can't debate the issues raised, then stop dancing around them and tossing out strawmen that don't address the topics at hand. The initial question of the thread is answered in the poll...the rest of us have now expanded into further related discussions. If you refuse to go along with that, stop trying to sidetrack those discussions to just reiterate the same basic point over and over again.

I still hold to what I said. They had aid money and our tax $ and UN money and they spent it all on rockets and not the people

I can only assume you have next to know information about the reality of the Palestinian situation. For one, the money is not "only spent on weapons." Secondly, the amount of aid and external revenue is so relatively miniscule that even if every cent was "spent on the people" it would ultimately fix next to nothing in the longterm when it comes to the larger problems I've been bringing up. The biggest shot the Palestinians have to getting out of poverty is for Israel to stop wrapping every single Palestinian community in an economic stranglehold.

I really don't know about that man, but the only thing they respect here and now will be force.

That's a ridiculous idea. That's how this has been dealt with for 60 years now, and what has been accomplished?

Not be harsh, but they are in their own land according to the UN. I still say why can't the billions in oil money help them out?

They're throughout in their own land. The British, the US, the UN and the Zionist movement proceeded to systematically marginalize and move a native population to make room for foreign settlers. And what oil money? Why do you expect foreign nations to do what Israel ad Palestine need to work out between themselves? And what good would pumping foreign money into the settlements do? The infrastructure is still crippled and the local economy is still controlled by Israel.

Civilized leaders, moderate leaders. Maybe like Abbas?

Pie in the sky thinking. The Palestinians really can't be forced any lower than they are. People in that situation aren't going to choose leaders that aren't talking about being able to fight back. You basically want the Palestinians to shut up and do nothing and just continue to suffer everywhere. That doesn't mean Hamas is the right answer, but i makes it clear why Hamas gets its support. Why would they pick anyone who doesn't talk about standing up to their oppressors?

I only said because you said, and I hate to nitpick and parse, but it "actually has a long history of working exceedinly well in ending prolonged conflict or even avoiding it in the first place"

It did. Hitler and the Nazis, as they are in so many regards, are a historical exception where that type of appeasement didn't work. Since then, it has placed a stigma on that type of negotition as being ineffectual and weak when, up until then, it typically was not.

I dunno, I know with Hezbollah and Lebanon it stopped after a nasty war a couple of years ago. There's a little more balance there in Lebanon now. Still could fire off at any time. but there's a precarious peace for now. A lot of people died there - on both sides. Maybe people in Gaza will be sick of it too and a moderate gov't will be in place. That's about the best I can see.

Lebanon isn't in the same situation as the Palestinians. I really wish you would look into the research as to how the Palestinians are living and have been living for decades. There's basically no chance that everything just stops due to military action by the Israelis short of them either killing most of them or pushing everyone out of their own country.

Wiki's an OK source for factual info - it's always qualified with limitations and governed pretty well by the masses.

It's a good starting point, but typically pretty unreliable to use as any kind of definitive source, especially on such volatile topics. The best thing you can say about it is that it provdes a lot of outside sources...if it's cited properly. And that's a big "if."

BTW, just a total stab but you're a big fan of Jimmy Carter - are you not? I kind of see him as one of your heroes - and that's cool

No and no. Keep it up with the strawmen.

[Death Metal Moe]

I love all these Pro-Palestinian Suffering posters.

There, now you're labeled too, dickweeds. Since you don't want to see this in anything but the most basic, dumbed down black and white argument, you are no pro-suffering of the innocent members of the Palestinian population.

But I guess my joke is flawed from the beginning because NO Palestinian is innocent in your eyes, right? They're all fanatics, foaming at the mouth since birth to kill Jews.

Some of you people I must respectfully label as retards.

[yojimbo7248]

Some of you people I must respectfully label as retards.

I think it is more of moral and character rather than retard issue. Some of the comments on this thread have put the Palestinians on the same level as dogs or livestock. Some posters have made absolutely no attempt to understand what it would be like to be a common Palestinian living in Gaza or the West Bank. This is the thinking that leads to My Lais, Holocausts, Soviet gulags, and a long list of shitty things people have done to each other over history. What really annoys me is that many people who say bomb Palestinians into submission and keep out the humanitarian aid are very religious.

[A.J.]

You're jumping all over the place identifying the main aggressors alternately as "Gaza," "Hamas," "the Palestinians" and "the Arabs," which mkes it clear you have no interest in anything except broad condemnations that don't dare turn a critical eye towards the Israeli government and the hardliners.

Nobody wants Hamas to "win." Hamas IS a problem, for everyone. The thing is, however, treating the Palestinians like 2nd class citizens or worse is only going to give groups like Hamas a permanent shelf life. All the Israeli government is doing is willfully perpetuating a cycle that gets its citizens killed.

You also toss out the incorrect assertion that "appeasement has never worked historically." That's a remarkably uninformed and compeltely inaccurate statement that likely hinges on the image pereptuated by the British "appeasing" Nazi Germany before the start of WW2. The failure of that policy there is the significant EXCEPTION, not the rule. "Appeasement" actually has a long history of working exceedinly well in ending prolonged conflict or even avoiding it in the first place. The trick is to find a middle ground that works for everyone involved. I believ that such a thing is possible here. What such an idea does NOT entail, however, are halfassed notions like "giving" the Palestinians Gaza. They were given Gaza, but the Israeli government has done everything possible to make life there as hellish as in the settlements. The Palestinian economy is, of course, hinged on the dominat Israeli economy. As such, it is exceedingly difficult for Palestinians to sustain jobs and own businesses and export and import and rise above anything except complete poverty. Significant medical care is all but nonexistent thanks to Israeli border restrictions and policies. Electrical power is often a luxury as opposed to something most people have access to thanks to, once again, the dominant Israeli economy and their control of most of the regions power supplies. And we've already discussed water, which is also precarious thanks to similar situations. These and many other reasons are why many of the Palestinians ultimately feel little choice but to turn to groups like Hamas. These are cycles that CAN ultimately be broken. It has little to do with surrendering or giving up and everything to do with sharing basic resources so everyone has a shot at just surviving above the poverty level.

Your insistence on talking like the Palestinians have had every opportunity to live autonomous of Israel or have any kind of a fighting chace of not being second class citizens simply is not realistic at all. Jumping to the ambigous notion that this is based mainly on the "elimination" of Israel is you deliberately ignoring the reality of the situation there.

Well said. I would add that Israel's occupation/settlement of lands that were promised to the Palestinians isn't exactly helping the situation. King 'Abdallah of Saudi Arabia proposed a peace plan that guaranteed Arab recognition and peace with Israel if they returned to the 1967 borders. I forget how similar/different this plan is compared to the one Dragons cited above.

[foodcourtdruide]

I think it is more of moral and character rather than retard issue. Some of the comments on this thread have put the Palestinians on the same level as dogs or livestock. Some posters have made absolutely no attempt to understand what it would be like to be a common Palestinian living in Gaza or the West Bank. This is the thinking that leads to My Lais, Holocausts, Soviet gulags, and a long list of shitty things people have done to each other over history. What really annoys me is that many people who say bomb Palestinians into submission and keep out the humanitarian aid are very religious.

I agree with you. They don't think of this from the perspective of the Palestinian family that just wants to live their lives. I've said it before, they paint every Palestinian as a foaming at the mouth Hamas militant. It must make them sleep better at night.

Think about it like this: if Israel dropped a bomb on your apartment complex and killed two of your family members and several of your friends in order to kill a suspected terrorist living 3 floors below you, would you say "You know, this sucks. But hey Israel is just defending itself!"

[Furtherman]

The bird who has eaten cannot fly with the bird that is hungry.

[Death Metal Moe]

I agree with you. They don't think of this from the perspective of the Palestinian family that just wants to live their lives. I've said it before, they paint every Palestinian as a foaming at the mouth Hamas militant. It must make them sleep better at night.

Think about it like this: if Israel dropped a bomb on your apartment complex and killed two of your family members and several of your friends in order to kill a suspected terrorist living 3 floors below you, would you say "You know, this sucks. But hey Israel is just defending itself!"

Israel doesn't care about the people around the suspected terrorists they're trying to kill and Israel doesn't care about helping the overall situation that breeds hate and future terrorists. So to an extent they are reapping what they sow.

[Syd]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7811721.stm

Saw this linked in another thread, pretty good journal.

Though, I wonder, what's the excuse for not allowing press into Gaza if the mission is so righteous and so necessary?

[SonOfSmeagol]

That's a cop-out. If you can't debate the issues raised, then stop dancing around them and tossing out strawmen that don't address the topics at hand. The initial question of the thread is answered in the poll...the rest of us have now expanded into further related discussions. If you refuse to go along with that, stop trying to sidetrack those discussions to just reiterate the same basic point over and over again.

To keep it short I believe you have repeated the same basic anti-Israel and pro-Pal points throughout and really have added nothing new. Your peripheral arguments have made your position pretty clear without you coming out and saying so. Also, the “dancing around” and “rest of us” and “sidetrack” is a nice touch but reeks of your subjective judgment and sounds whiny. And quite frankly, “strawman” seems to an especially effective tool for you to claim when the statement at hand is not in your best interest, but if I understand the term correctly you’ve no shortage of them yourself.


I can only assume you have next to know information about the reality of the Palestinian situation. For one, the money is not "only spent on weapons." Secondly, the amount of aid and external revenue is so relatively miniscule that even if every cent was "spent on the people" it would ultimately fix next to nothing in the longterm when it comes to the larger problems I've been bringing up. The biggest shot the Palestinians have to getting out of poverty is for Israel to stop wrapping every single Palestinian community in an economic stranglehold.

Talk about a cop out. You are effectively saying it is so hopeless so why not buy rockets and screw the long term because the future is totally out of the Pals hands and completely up to Israel.


That's a ridiculous idea. That's how this has been dealt with for 60 years now, and what has been accomplished?

Force is the only thing terrorists like Hamas will understand in this situation. You say ridiculous but offer no alternatives whatsoever – again, in this situation.


They're throughout in their own land. The British, the US, the UN and the Zionist movement proceeded to systematically marginalize and move a native population to make room for foreign settlers. And what oil money? Why do you expect foreign nations to do what Israel ad Palestine need to work out between themselves? And what good would pumping foreign money into the settlements do? The infrastructure is still crippled and the local economy is still controlled by Israel.

Again you argue that the future is totally out of the Pals hands and completely up to Israel. Ignoring the other countries who supposedly support the Pals but not with any substance.


Pie in the sky thinking. The Palestinians really can't be forced any lower than they are. People in that situation aren't going to choose leaders that aren't talking about being able to fight back. You basically want the Palestinians to shut up and do nothing and just continue to suffer everywhere. That doesn't mean Hamas is the right answer, but i makes it clear why Hamas gets its support. Why would they pick anyone who doesn't talk about standing up to their oppressors?

Bullshit. I think you clearly insult, even a person in the lowliest circumstances, with the judgment that good, common people are only capable of supporting extremists.


It did. Hitler and the Nazis, as they are in so many regards, are a historical exception where that type of appeasement didn't work. Since then, it has placed a stigma on that type of negotition as being ineffectual and weak when, up until then, it typically was not.

Since you bring this forth as an approach, what are the examples and how, exactly would appeasement work in this situation.

Lebanon isn't in the same situation as the Palestinians. I really wish you would look into the research as to how the Palestinians are living and have been living for decades. There's basically no chance that everything just stops due to military action by the Israelis short of them either killing most of them or pushing everyone out of their own country.

Not the same but similar – as I said a precarious peace exists at this point because of the blood spilled in 2006. I understand the despair of the Pals but it is not solely on the backs of the Israelis to cure, as you so clearly believe.


…From today's Washington Post: the 3 state solution (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/04/AR2009010401434.html?hpid=opinionsbox1) by John Bolton. ….

This (and the "THIS STORY" sublinks) are actually excellent takes on the situation in my view. Believe me I’m not huge Post fan (yes, yes yes I know they're op-eds). Of course it doesn’t propose returning Israel to the Pals so I’m sure some people will dismiss it out of hand.

[scottinnj]

If you haven't listened yet, check out Fox News Sunday's discussion of this and also the podcast from this Sunday's MTP.

Almost to a man, everyone talking about this is asking the same question-"What is the endgame exit strategy for Israel?" Nobody seems to know, and this is coming from both sides of the issue.

I haven't figured it out either, and now I'm to the point where I believe Israel has to do one of two things:

1. Occupy the Gaza Strip indefinitely.

2. Form a blockade around Gaza until Hamas is starved out of power or some outside force comes in to take over clearing the rockets and weapons caches out of the strip while sealing up the smuggling points of entry.

[TheMojoPin]

To keep it short I believe you have repeated the same basic anti-Israel and pro-Pal points throughout and really have added nothing new. Your peripheral arguments have made your position pretty clear without you coming out and saying so. Also, the “dancing around” and “rest of us” and “sidetrack” is a nice touch but reeks of your subjective judgment and sounds whiny. And quite frankly, “strawman” seems to an especially effective tool for you to claim when the statement at hand is not in your best interest, but if I understand the term correctly you’ve no shortage of them yourself.

You're the on continually dodging the issues brougt up ad only cherry picking the oens you respond to, which you then respond to with spin and responses to arguments nobody is making.

Talk about a cop out. You are effectively saying it is so hopeless so why not buy rockets and screw the long term because the future is totally out of the Pals hands and completely up to Israel.

That's not what I said at all. What I was countering was your apparent assertion that if they didn't "spend it all on rockets," everything could be fixed.

Force is the only thing terrorists like Hamas will understand in this situation. You say ridiculous but offer no alternatives whatsoever – again, in this situation.

Which leads to nothing except more dead people on both sides and nothing changes. I have also expressed my ideas as to how I believe steps can be taken towards longterm resolutions that helps both sides.

Again you argue that the future is totally out of the Pals hands and completely up to Israel. Ignoring the other countries who supposedly support the Pals but not with any substance.

What you're ignoring is the reality of the situation. Palestine and Israel are inherrently woven together. One side almost totally controls the economic structure and goes to great lengths to limit the economic abilities of the other side.

Bullshit. I think you clearly insult, even a person in the lowliest circumstances, with the judgment that good, common people are only capable of supporting extremists.

Again, you're either ignoring or in denial over the reality of the everyday life of the average Palestinian.

Since you bring this forth as an approach, what are the examples and how, exactly would appeasement work in this situation.

If you stopped selectively dancing around the issues raised, you'd see that I and others have talked about specific steps that can be taken.

Not the same but similar – as I said a precarious peace exists at this point because of the blood spilled in 2006. I understand the despair of the Pals but it is not solely on the backs of the Israelis to cure, as you so clearly believe.

I haven't said it only relies on the Israelis. What I have said again and again is they have the most power to get real change going. The Palestinians would ultimately and obviously have to play their part, but Israel has the most ability to go after lasting change.

This (and the "THIS STORY" sublinks) are actually excellent takes on the situation in my view. Believe me I’m not huge Post fan. Of course it doesn’t propose returning Israel to the Pals so I’m sure some people will dismiss it out of hand.

And once again, you turn people's opinions into a non-existent strawman just to take a cheap dig.

I'm really tried of playing this same circular non-debate with you. You're on your own.

[Death Metal Moe]

They fear our freedom Mojo, don't you get it?

[Death Metal Moe]

BLAH BLAH BLAH



Holy shit, I've never seen someone put so many words together and say absolutely nothing.

You sir, deserve a prize.

[high fly]

Not really the best debate tactic to site Wikipedia as a source, particuarly one that is challenged on that site for its information and neutrality.

Secondly, you're arguing a strawman. Nobody is attempting to justify the rhetoric and actions and Hamas. Nobody is denying that the Palestinian people votied in Hamas. What I'm pointing to is the larger questions of why they actually did and what other alternative did the Palestinians legitimately have.

The goal should be to steal the thunder from the rheotirc of groups like Hamas. Groups like Hamas will never go away so long as the hardline Israeli government insists on absuing and beating down any and all Palestinians at every opportunity and on all levels. Is this saying that the Plaestinians aren't responsible for helping this cycle of destruction along? Of course not...they're right in the thick of it and hugely culpable. My continued point is that the Israelis, by being the overwhelming dominant power in that areaand holding all the cards has the most ability, by far, to make the most progress in rooting out the deep seated reasons that allow groups like Hamas to continue and gain power. The Palestinians can't take those stops...they have nothing to offer because, well, they have nothing. All they can offer ceasefires, and when those have been enacted, even for extended periods of time, nothing has changed.

I'm saying that if genuine, longterm change is to be had that benefits BOTH sides, the Israelis have the most power to facilitate it. If they wat to keep halfassing it and sabotaging things as they have, that's their own folly, and nothing will change. You back people ino a corner with nowhere else to go and nothing left, how can you expect them to just tolerate that?


iki, the site that said former Prime Minister Tony Blair's middle name is "Whoop-Dee-Do"?


I think the goal has to be a bigger one.
What has happened is hawks on both sides have pursued policies that have resulted in 60 years of war and slaughter of innocents.
The goal should be to get to a place where everyone lves in peace and mutual respect for the dignity and rights of others, with a commitment to solving disagrements peacefully.
Anything that prevents them from achieving that goal is counterproductive.
This goal has to be focused on and leaders have to be supported who will get both sides to that point.

"Kill-em-all" is not a solution that is attainable and the hawks on both sides have to be marginalized. The current assault on Gaza will not reduce attacks on Israel, but will swell the ranks of the terrorists.
Neither the Israelis nor the Arabs are going away and they have to move in the direction of achieving the goal I described.


Lastly, we need to get out from the middle of this mess by achieving energy independence...

[scottinnj]

Lastly, we need to get out from the middle of this mess by achieving energy independence...

Lovin' the high fly for that one. Q to the F to the Motherfucking T!

[Drunky McBetidont]

http://uk.gizmodo.com/Borat-flag.jpg

[DarkHippie]

Israel has a right to keep its border closed as long as there is a security threat. but why are they blockading sea access? There is no way that Gaza can ever build an infrastructure when they cant trade with anyone

With Trade, Gaza should be able to build themselves up. Build desalinization plants, an air port, etc. Then again, they are about the size of Phildelphia and have no natural resources to trade.

I could see Gaza becoming a trade hub though due to their location. They just need a loan to get the ball rolling. Once they get some money in there, maybe they won't be so willing to kill themselves in a futile war.

To quote the bumper sticker on the back of my car "peace begins when the hungry are fed." But it is not Israel's responsibility to be the ones to trade with them.

[NewYorkDragons80]

With Trade, Gaza should be able to build themselves up. Build desalinization plants, an air port, etc. Then again, they are about the size of Phildelphia and have no natural resources to trade.

I could see Gaza becoming a trade hub though due to their location. They just need a loan to get the ball rolling. Once they get some money in there, maybe they won't be so willing to kill themselves in a futile war.

What's amazing is that they even could be a beach tourist destination. There's no reason Gaza can't be another Aqaba or Sharm el-Sheikh.

[vjr97]

hamas and their followers are idiots who deserve the death they glorify

[high fly]

I really don't know about that man, but the only thing they respect here and now will be force.



What makes you think that?
60 years of "using force" has only magnified the death and destruction, not eliminated it.

What has reduced death and destruction has been negotiation.


If the goal is for everyone to live peacefully together, then war takes them away from, instead of toward that goal.

[Death Metal Moe]

What makes you think that?
60 years of "using force" has only magnified the death and destruction, not eliminated it.

What has reduced death and destruction has been negotiation.


If the goal is for everyone to live peacefully together, then war takes them away from, instead of toward that goal.

Dude, fuck him, seriously. Don't ask him to clarify any of his fucking ignorant points because he never did.

He made a statement that force can and has worked in the past in such situations and when I BEGGED him like 3 times to tell me when that might have been he ignored me each time. Don't even acknowledge that guy. He's a simpleton.

[Death Metal Moe]

hamas and their followers are idiots who deserve the death they glorify

They do, but at what cost to the civilians around them who either don't support them in the least or look to them for some kind of hope to live in a blockaded area of land under seige all the time?

Their elections are just like ours. Not everyone voted for them, but they're in power now.

[high fly]

They do, but at what cost to the civilians around them who either don't support them in the least or look to them for some kind of hope to live in a blockaded area of land under seige all the time?

Their elections are just like ours. Not everyone voted for them, but they're in power now.


And they got in power because Bush pressured Arafat to hold elections early.
Hamas would not be so popular if there was not a vacuum for them to fill in terms of the social services and schooling they have provided.
Same with Hezbollah.

Oh, and Moe, point taken, above.
I don't really think the chap can answer.....

[yojimbo7248]

And they got in power because Bush pressured Arafat to hold elections early.
Hamas would not be so popular if there was not a vacuum for them to fill in terms of the social services and schooling they have provided.


good point. That's is just one more reason why it is so wrong to punish the Palestinians for voting for Hamas.

[TheMojoPin]

To quote the bumper sticker on the back of my car "peace begins when the hungry are fed." But it is not Israel's responsibility to be the ones to trade with them.

Though it should be appealing to seek such a situation since an economically viable Palestine can only be good for Israel if they mnage to have trading relations.

[high fly]

Indeed.
The fact is, there is a history of Arabs and Jews getting along just fine doing business together.
That was true when Lebanon was a major trading center for jewels and also when Arabs were providing labor for Israeli industry, and of course the hashish trade out of the Bekaa Valley in times past are examples of times where they got along just fine...

[Death Metal Moe]

Indeed.
The fact is, there is a history of Arabs and Jews getting along just fine doing business together.
That was true when Lebanon was a major trading center for jewels and also when Arabs were providing labor for Israeli industry, and of course the hashish trade out of the Bekaa Valley in times past are examples of times where they got along just fine...

That is the fact that people who know nothing about the reigon either don't care to know or are too stupid to figure out.

It's much easier to label people "savages" and applaud whatever your political party and your news channel hails as "good."

[high fly]

..................satisfied and sedated in their superficiality..............

[scottinnj]

Thirteen days of fighting between Israel and Hamas have left an estimated 765 Palestinians and 14 Israelis dead.


Confirmation Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7819188.stm)

[SonOfSmeagol]

What makes you think that?
60 years of "using force" has only magnified the death and destruction, not eliminated it.

What has reduced death and destruction has been negotiation.


If the goal is for everyone to live peacefully together, then war takes them away from, instead of toward that goal.

I said that about Hamas specifically, and in the current timeframe. Here’s why. They possess significant power and influence at the current time, thus they deserve attention. The Hamas central objective, in fact the charter that defines their existence, calls foremost for the destruction of Israel. Hamas’ intent is to reclaim all the land currently under Israeli as well as PA control as a fundamentalist Islamic state. Hamas has defined the Israelis/Jews as mortal enemies and have always declined any kind of peace talks that will result in any kind of lasting power/land/resource sharing solution, even with moderate Pals.

I think Hamas’ actions at this time and over the years are/have been true to these stated intentions. Suicide attacks specifically targeting civilians have been the major MO of Hamas. They realize that this gives the most bang for the buck so to speak. Hamas has really never shown any inclination or evidence at all for moderation or peaceful coexistence with Israel or, in fact, moderate Pals or other moderate middle east brethren. They continue, daily, to attack Israel. Is Israel supposed to absorb these attacks indefinitely? Yes, the death toll from rocket attacks on Israel has been relatively low. But is that the point? If I keep firing a loaded gun at you and miss most of the time, can you live with that in peace?

So, given all that, what else other than force will Hamas respond to? They need to be removed from power sooner rather than later. What is the alternative that will make this happen sooner rather than later? The extremists are in fact a very small minority of people in Gaza, yet they hold so much power over so many. Also, the PA and other brethren, not to mention the “international community” have made no progress whatsoever in unseating them from power.


I’m on my own, so I’ll just toss this out:
Let’s assume that, for the sake of argument, that - Israel – as we know it today - granted true equality to all Palestinians. There is no requirement that one be Jewish to be Israeli (there isn’t now – but assume it’s real and not just on paper). Assume that the territorial borders went away, all residents were declared equal under the law, and all the resources were shared across the board according to need, not nationality or religion or historical claims or whatever. Thus, the Israelis as we know them today in this scenario have done everything they can to distribute the power, open the economy, equal the political landscape, and welcome all the residents of the land as equal brothers and sisters. Both parties that reside on the land have put aside ill will in the interest of peace. In fact – they would have to come up with a new name – like Palestireal or Israelistine!

If only Israel would make the first move the logjam would free up and peace would be closer? If that happened, what would that mean with respect to the extremists like Hamas? Would they, others like them, and their state sponsors disavow themselves of their intentions and live in peace?

[The Jays]

If only Ron and Fez broadcast to the Middle East, Israelis and Palestinians would lay down their weapons in awe of the comedic WMDs known as Ron Bennington and Fez Marie Whatley.

[K.C.]

If only Ron and Fez broadcast to the Middle East, Israelis and Palestinians would lay down their weapons in awe of the comedic WMDs known as Ron Bennington and Fez Marie Whatley.


...

who?





(I kid! I kid!)

[conman823]

I blame the British for starting this whole conflict.

If America loves the Jews so much why didn't we cut off a piece of California for them as a "country". The Bible is not a land-owners deed.

"Savages" is a term I'm sure people used about Jews in Eastern Europe in WW2. To use it against Palestine is the same. Children are children, civilians are civilians.

I say stay out of it and let whatever happens, happen. Whatever the outcome, the Israelies knew what they got themselves into. If Iran decideds to play "big brother" to a Hamas government, then the Isrealies can deal with that too.

ISOLATIONISM........FUCK YEA!!

[DarkHippie]

I blame the British for starting this whole conflict.

If America loves the Jews so much why didn't we cut off a piece of California for them as a "country". The Bible is not a land-owners deed.

"Savages" is a term I'm sure people used about Jews in Eastern Europe in WW2. To use it against Palestine is the same. Children are children, civilians are civilians.

I say stay out of it and let whatever happens, happen. Whatever the outcome, the Israelies knew what they got themselves into. If Iran decideds to play "big brother" to a Hamas government, then the Isrealies can deal with that too.

ISOLATIONISM........FUCK YEA!!

We can't stay out of it. If we do, then Israel will turn the Middle east into rubble. We can't take back all the technology we gave them. I'm not sure, but I think they have nukes too.

edit: this link is from wikipedia, but it is ver well referenced http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

[high fly]

I said that about Hamas specifically, and in the current timeframe. Here’s why. They possess significant power and influence at the current time, thus they deserve attention. The Hamas central objective, in fact the charter that defines their existence, calls foremost for the destruction of Israel.


Ever read up on communist ideology?
Their objective was the overthrow of capitalist countries.
The fact is, Israel is not going away and it is impossible for Hamas to get rid of them.
The Arabs are not going away, either.

Just because one side takes a hard line at the beginning ("We will bury you!") does not mean negotiations will be unfruitful.
Infact, if one takes the time to become educated about Arab rhetoric and figures of speech, it becomes easier to understand how they use what we would regard as overblown rhetoric to make a point.




War does not get either side closer to the goal of living in peace.

War is a move in the opposite direction.




Good grief, man,you have 60 years of history that shows you that war doesn't solve the issues in the Middle East between Arabs and Jews.
How much more evidence do you need?




.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I said that about Hamas specifically, and in the current timeframe. Here’s why. They possess significant power and influence at the current time, thus they deserve attention. The Hamas central objective, in fact the charter that defines their existence, calls foremost for the destruction of Israel.
Ever read up on communist ideology?
Their objective was the overthrow of capitalist countries.
The fact is, Israel is not going away and it is impossible for Hamas to get rid of them.
The Arabs are not going away, either.

Just because one side takes a hard line at the beginning ("We will bury you!") does not mean negotiations will be unfruitful.
Infact, if one takes the time to become educated about Arab rhetoric and figures of speech, it becomes easier to understand how they use what we would regard as overblown rhetoric to make a point.

War does not get either side closer to the goal of living in peace.

War is a move in the opposite direction.

Good grief, man,you have 60 years of history that shows you that war doesn't solve the issues in the Middle East between Arabs and Jews.
How much more evidence do you need?.

You asked why I think force is the only thing Hamas would respond to, and I answered your specific question with much more than you chose to quote. You made it look like the quote you provided was my entire answer (such as it was) to your specific question, and that’s really not true. So be it - no rules at all that say you have to be fair – but when quoted like that I’m compelled to point that out.

I think it’s difficult to equate or even compare the communists with Islamic extremists. Also, as I said, negotiations for any type of long term solution haven’t worked and don’t seem to be feasible really. Also, continuous terrorist attacks by Hamas and many others continue, are real and are much more than overblown rhetoric. This current conflict will end when Hamas stops the attacks on Israel. Yes, war is bad, but I don’t think that stating the things you did about war is really any kind of evidence that negotiations with Islamic extremists has ever worked or will work.

[TheMojoPin]

I think it’s difficult to equate or even compare the communists with Islamic extremists. Also, as I said, negotiations for any type of long term solution haven’t worked and don’t seem to be feasible really. Also, continuous terrorist attacks by Hamas and many others continue, are real and are much more than overblown rhetoric. This current conflict will end when Hamas stops the attacks on Israel. Yes, war is bad, but I don’t think that stating the things you did about war is really any kind of evidence that negotiations with Islamic extremists has ever worked or will work.

But that hinges on the idea that only extremists will ever be in power, which is largely result of the self-defeating cycle Israel willfully perpetuates. If they want moderates to deal with, quit feeding extremist rhetoric left and right and don't pressure for immediate elections when the moderate party is in shambles.

[SonOfSmeagol]

But that hinges on the idea that only extremists will ever be in power, which is largely result of the self-defeating cycle Israel willfully perpetuates. If they want moderates to deal with, quit feeding extremist rhetoric left and right and don't pressure for immediate elections when the moderate party is in shambles.

We can hope for and promote the constriction of the extremist power base. Peaceful international isolation to state sponsored lands such as Iran and Syria, removing the proxies from places such as Gaza, would go a long way. But, what other choice does Israel have in the short term when PA is in shambles? How long do they wait for the outside world to get their shit together? Moreover, I have to continue to disagree with the emphasis you put on Israel’s overall role in the solution, and their contribution to the problem. I believe those factors are much more widespread and not easily attributed to only the Israelis.

I think that any approach needs to involve all the major stakeholders (excluding extremists), is interim/incremental (“stepping stone”), inclusive of all the parties with geographical interests (e.g., Egypt, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, territories), “international” in scope, collaborative, and must quickly improve the lives of many people to gain momentum.

And just because of those competing priorities it sadly would probably never work. Also, at its base it is a religious conflict.

[TheMojoPin]

We can hope for and promote the constriction of the extremist power base. Peaceful international isolation to state sponsored lands such as Iran and Syria, removing the proxies from places such as Gaza, would go a long way. But, what other choice does Israel have in the short term when PA is in shambles? How long do they wait for the outside world to get their shit together? Moreover, I have to continue to disagree with the emphasis you put on Israel’s overall role in the solution, and their contribution to the problem. I believe those factors are much more widespread and not easily attributed to only the Israelis.

I think that any approach needs to involve all the major stakeholders (excluding extremists), is interim/incremental (“stepping stone”), inclusive of all the parties with geographical interests (e.g., Egypt, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, territories), “international” in scope, collaborative, and must quickly improve the lives of many people to gain momentum.

And just because of those competing priorities it sadly would probably never work. Also, at its base it is a religious conflict.

Your plan seems to be circling around the idea of ultimately getting the Palestinians out of Israel/Palestine and neighboring states just going along with it...why?

If you don't want to look at it as an internal problem between people sharing the same land, then of course it's easier to not level criticism at them. You seem to be wating to see the Palestinians as intruders that need to be removed. It's their country, too.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Your plan seems to be circling around the idea of ultimately getting the Palestinians out of Israel/Palestine and neighboring states just going along with it...why?

If you don't want to look at it as an internal problem between people sharing the same land, then of course it's easier to not level criticism at them. You seem to be wating to see the Palestinians as intruders that need to be removed. It's their country, too.

Not at all. I don’t know why you say that I said that. Ultimately they should be able share the land. I’m saying as an incremental step, in the short-term, that the situation in the immediate geographical area screams for some sort of resolution. The involvement of Egypt and Jordan and Lebanon is key! The removal of extremists from power in the territories is key! I have always (pretty much) said this. If it weren’t for the extremists, what reason would Israel have to limit resources, constrain the borders, oppress the regular Pal people?

The border states with Israel have pretty much washed their hands of the problem and until they step up, in concert with Israel stepping up, it will never change! That’s just incremental, a stepping stone as I’ve said to a larger, more permanent end state that involves the other middle east states, the “international community”, and a non-religious re-definition of the land (and I say good luck with that!).

[TheMojoPin]

Not at all. I don’t know why you say that I said that. Ultimately they should be able share the land. I’m saying as an incremental step, in the short-term, that the situation in the immediate geographical area screams for some sort of resolution. The involvement of Egypt and Jordan and Lebanon is key! The removal of extremists from power in the territories is key! I have always (pretty much) said this. If it weren’t for the extremists, what reason would Israel have to limit resources, constrain the borders, oppress the regular Pal people?

I really don't see how involving those countries is feasable or even useful. It's just going to clutter up a situation where direct confrontation/negotation between people sharing borders is going to be most effective. The goals of the native populations of the land need to be key.

[SonOfSmeagol]

…The involvement of Egypt and Jordan and Lebanon is key! The removal of extremists from power in the territories is key! …

I really don't see how involving those countries is feasable or even useful. It's just going to clutter up a situation where direct confrontation/negotation between people sharing borders is going to be most effective. The goals of the native populations of the land need to be key.

It's so much about the geography! What major conflicts in recent years haven’t involved countries/gov’ts next to each other? These countries and territories I have have named do share borders – please just look at the map! It's not clutter really, it's land, resources, land, rivers, etc. etc that are co-located and truly shared! How can these players be not part of the solution? Do they not share the same native land - in a geographical sense?


http://www.epif.bgu.ac.il/epifnew/epifPics%5Cmap%5CISRAEL_map.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

It's so much about the geography! What major conflicts in recent years haven’t involved countries/gov’ts next to each other? These countries and territories I have have named do share borders – please just look at the map! It's not clutter really, it's land, resources, land, rivers, etc. etc that are co-located and truly shared! How can these players be not part of the solution? Do they not share the same native land - in a geographical sense?


http://www.epif.bgu.ac.il/epifnew/epifPics%5Cmap%5CISRAEL_map.jpg

Because this is an internal conflict. The countries outside of Israel/Palestine are secondary. They aren't necessary for the Israelis and the Palestinians to work with each other.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Because this is an internal conflict. The countries outside of Israel/Palestine are secondary. They aren't necessary for the Israelis and the Palestinians to work with each other.

Dude! I totally disagree!! I can't fathom how you can say that!

[SonOfSmeagol]

We can't stay out of it. If we do, then Israel will turn the Middle east into rubble. We can't take back all the technology we gave them. I'm not sure, but I think they have nukes too.


I have to add this about nukes.

Yes, by all accounts Israel has nukes – 100’s of them most likely. They are a deterrent force I believe. Absolutely only to be used in retaliation for a nuke attack upon them. They could, in fact, probably wipe out most of their enemies with some small fraction of the weapons they possess. They won’t do this. They have had every opportunity to do so for years and years and they have not and will not do this in an offensive fashion.

But here’s the difference as I see it: If Israel could isolate all their extremist enemies in one spot, separate from the civilians, disarm them, and “nuke” them in one shot, I don’t believe they would do it. I truly don’t.

Contrast that with the Islamic extremists, I believe if they could get a hold of a nuke they would not hesitate to use it against the first Israeli target they could find. I must qualify this - not the leaders – they want to survive. But the “recruits” –the leaders would have no problem finding a martyr “cutout” to execute this. Sad, but I believe this to be true. I really think the extremists would do it. They may irradiate the land they so covet for who knows how many years, but they might just do it. I say this not to inflame, but just as a point of view.

[high fly]

You asked why I think force is the only thing Hamas would respond to, and I answered your specific question with much more than you chose to quote. You made it look like the quote you provided was my entire answer (such as it was) to your specific question, and that’s really not true. So be it - no rules at all that say you have to be fair – but when quoted like that I’m compelled to point that out.

I think it’s difficult to equate or even compare the communists with Islamic extremists. Also, as I said, negotiations for any type of long term solution haven’t worked and don’t seem to be feasible really. Also, continuous terrorist attacks by Hamas and many others continue, are real and are much more than overblown rhetoric. This current conflict will end when Hamas stops the attacks on Israel. Yes, war is bad, but I don’t think that stating the things you did about war is really any kind of evidence that negotiations with Islamic extremists has ever worked or will work.



I just left out the rest for brevity's sake.
I am not trying to equate communists with Islamic extremists, other than to point out that while various sides may begin negotiations with one position, over time they may well change.

The communists changed their position and so did we along the way.
Another case where we changed was from refusing to even consider giving the Panama Canal back, to getting to where we did.
The negotiations with North Korea over the last several years have seen changes by the parties participating.

You are flat out wrong that negotiations have not worked over the long term.
They worked between Israel and Jordan and they worked between Israel and Egypt.



I recall James A. Baker III describing a couple months ago a negotiation he had with Syria that was fruitless for 17 meetings he had with them, but on the 18th he got results.
The same has been true with other negotiations.

Good grief, look at what was demanded of Israel in UN Resolution 242 back in the early 70s. They refused to go along with it but over time have come to agree to nearly the entire thing, giving up Gaza, the West Bank, the Sinai Peninsula, and are negotiating to give up the Golan Heights and Jeruselem has had an Arab mayor for quite a long time now, as I recall, and though they may not give the city back formally, it looks as if they are willing to give the Arabs a greater voice in the municipal government.
At one time, all of that appeared impossible, if you go by what they said at one time.

So the point is, just because Hamas or anyone else begins with a hard line, it dosn't mean they will maintain it, and I have given concrete examples to illustrate that point.

The point is not whether you agree with what position has been taken or the change that took place, but to note the change itself that came from negotiation.

Using static analysis is a mistake.
We have to understand that over time as situations change, so do various parties change in order to adapt to the new situation.
To take Hamas' position that they are dedicated to the destruction of Israel and decide they will never change is to ignore the lessons of history.

[TheMojoPin]

Dude! I totally disagree!! I can't fathom how you can say that!

Why? Because this is an internal conflict between two native populations. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't involve neighbring nations at all in the process, but to act like they need to be involved lockstep with every move, and need to put up the land and resources to house hundreds of thousands of refugess that have nothing to do with them is completely unrealistic and redundant. If you're not talking about them getting involved along those lines, then why do they need to be equal partners in the process? The most ability to change this lies wih the Israelis, then the Palestinians....and then everyone else waaaaaaaaaaay down on the totem pole. Talking like the neighboring countries NEED to be involved for anything to hapen is just another way of deferring from the reality of who has the most power to make things change.

[TheMojoPin]

But here’s the difference as I see it: If Israel could isolate all their extremist enemies in one spot, separate from the civilians, disarm them, and “nuke” them in one shot, I don’t believe they would do it. I truly don’t.

Of course they wouldn't Israel is a tiny country and the Middle East is a relatively small region of the world. Using a nuclear weapon would have devastating effects on basically every country in the region. That's just common sense.

Contrast that with the Islamic extremists, I believe if they could get a hold of a nuke they would not hesitate to use it against the first Israeli target they could find. I must qualify this - not the leaders – they want to survive. But the “recruits” –the leaders would have no problem finding a martyr “cutout” to execute this. Sad, but I believe this to be true. I really think the extremists would do it. They may irradiate the land they so covet for who knows how many years, but they might just do it. I say this not to inflame, but just as a point of view.

They wouldn't, for the same reasons. It's too large scale. Like you said, too many people want to survive, and you can't set off a nuke in the Middle East without raising drastically the chances of themselves dying. The leaders want to have power...setting off a nuke doesn't help that.

[high fly]

The desire for self-preservation would prevent them from using a nuke on Israel.
Those governments want to stay in power more than anything else.

[high fly]

I WANT TO CHANGE MY VOTE!

I voted for “Why don’t they go ahead and fuck…”

I believe ultimately this operation is going to be a resounding defeat for Israel.
It’s going to bite the ass right off of Israel. Not in the next week or two, but in time.
Think about it.
The Israelis have killed about 800 people,mostly civilians, but let’s say 200 Hamas fighters. Make it 500, whatever you want, I don’t care.
Now, with an initial recruiting pool of over 1,300,000,000 Muslims, how many do you think will flock to Hamas’ cause?
Give them a year to recruit and another six months to train and deploy suicide bombers and by this time in 2011 I bet they kill more Israelis than were killed in this operation, and it will hurt Israel more because they can’t take casualties the way the Arabs can.
In other words, this is going to function as a force multiplier not seen since the Sabra and Shatilla massacres of September 16-17, 1982.
Hezbollah is just warming up, getting ready to step into any power vacuum the Israelis create and I think you will see attacks on Israeli facilities and interests around the world.
Whether Hezbollah is able to move into Gaza remains to be seen, but I think they’ll try.

So I'm seeing a short-term tactical victory for Israel, but a longer term strategic defeat for them.


Toppling Hamas is a good idea if you have a better alternative in the wings.
But recall historic precedents where one bad guy was removed and one worse took his place.
The czar was overthrown and Lenin took charge.
Batista was overthrown and Castro moved in.
Fatah was weakened and Hamas took over in Gaza.
We may see the same in Iraq, where a pro-Iranian regime is now in power.

[keithy_19]

Toppling Hamas is a good idea if you have a better alternative in the wings.
But recall historic precedents where one bad guy was removed and one worse took his place.
The czar was overthrown and Lenin took charge.
Batista was overthrown and Castro moved in.
Fatah was weakened and Hamas took over in Gaza.
We may see the same in Iraq, where a pro-Iranian regime is now in power.

Bush left office and Obama came in...


:smoke:

[A.J.]

It’s going to bite the ass right off of Israel. Not in the next week or two, but in time.
Think about it.
The Israelis have killed about 800 people,mostly civilians, but let’s say 200 Hamas fighters. Make it 500, whatever you want, I don’t care.
Now, with an initial recruiting pool of over 1,300,000,000 Muslims, how many do you think will flock to Hamas’ cause?

That's what I tried saying before: this shit is cyclical and the heavy-handed tactics employed by Israel will ultimately fail as they have in the past.

HAMAS political leader Khalid Mishaal was on TV saying pretty much the same thing: this is turning into an extremist recruting bonanza. And the difference for Israel is that they're getting hammered more and more for this latest offensivein around the world than they have in the past. There have been pro-Palestinian rallies and demostrations all around the world: oh,.except in the U.S. where I understand there's going to be a PRO-Israel rally in NYC. Gee, I wonder why we're hated so much in this part of the world.

And it's nice to be back and the see the extremely graphic images of dead and dying Gazans on TV.

Toppling Hamas is a good idea if you have a better alternative in the wings.
But recall historic precedents where one bad guy was removed and one worse took his place.
The czar was overthrown and Lenin took charge.
Batista was overthrown and Castro moved in.
Fatah was weakened and Hamas took over in Gaza.
We may see the same in Iraq, where a pro-Iranian regime is now in power.

Shah Reza Palavi ---> Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

[TheMojoPin]

Shah Reza Palavi ---> Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

Batista was overthrown and Castro moved in.

Aren't those more examples of the chickens coming home to roost after outside governments have propped up a corrupt and unpopular government?

Pretty much all of the examples just reflect on human nature...when people are pushed into corner or worse, they're going to side with people who are going to fight back. When you've reached that level, you don't have the luxury of thinking "moderately"...it's about trying to stand up again. These decisions don't happen in a vacuum. Something drives people to such a point.

[Syd]

Gee, I wonder why we're hated so much in this part of the world.

I thought it was because of our freedom!!!

I wish we had an honest person sit down on TV and explain that "western decadence" is pretty much dead last on the list of grievances and has more to do with things happening in Dubai than things happening here. In the end, are you made that an unmarried gay couple has sex with eating pork or that your house is being shelled endlessly with US supplied munitions?

[SonOfSmeagol]

I just left out the rest for brevity's sake.
I am not trying to equate communists with Islamic extremists, other than to point out that while various sides may begin negotiations with one position, over time they may well change.

The communists changed their position and so did we along the way.
Another case where we changed was from refusing to even consider giving the Panama Canal back, to getting to where we did.
The negotiations with North Korea over the last several years have seen changes by the parties participating.

You are flat out wrong that negotiations have not worked over the long term.
They worked between Israel and Jordan and they worked between Israel and Egypt.

I recall James A. Baker III describing a couple months ago a negotiation he had with Syria that was fruitless for 17 meetings he had with them, but on the 18th he got results.
The same has been true with other negotiations.

Good grief, look at what was demanded of Israel in UN Resolution 242 back in the early 70s. They refused to go along with it but over time have come to agree to nearly the entire thing, giving up Gaza, the West Bank, the Sinai Peninsula, and are negotiating to give up the Golan Heights and Jeruselem has had an Arab mayor for quite a long time now, as I recall, and though they may not give the city back formally, it looks as if they are willing to give the Arabs a greater voice in the municipal government.
At one time, all of that appeared impossible, if you go by what they said at one time.

So the point is, just because Hamas or anyone else begins with a hard line, it dosn't mean they will maintain it, and I have given concrete examples to illustrate that point.

The point is not whether you agree with what position has been taken or the change that took place, but to note the change itself that came from negotiation.

Using static analysis is a mistake.
We have to understand that over time as situations change, so do various parties change in order to adapt to the new situation.
To take Hamas' position that they are dedicated to the destruction of Israel and decide they will never change is to ignore the lessons of history.

I think in the communist situation we basically outspent them in real and perceived defense capabilities and ended up “winning” the cold war. And there, no one really wanted to die for the cause.
The Canal was a unique situation which I didn’t agree with at the time but since, due to our technological innovations, and our expansion into a truly global force, and the fact that many of our warships no longer fit through the canal – make it largely obsolete.
N Korea is another unique situation, they have become more and more irrelevant, and I believe they have had no choice other than to cooperate somewhat or simply implode. But yes negotiations have had an effect there for sure. But again, if there was ever was anyone unwilling to die for the cause it really is those guys.

Egypt and Jordan are excellent examples! Most citizens are Muslim, but the governments (far from democratic by the way) have actively kept the extremists down. That’s not to say all Muslims are potential extremists, just that the disparate people can and do get along. And because they border with Israel and the territories they are central to successful peace in the region in the long term.

I really do not think that the basic position of the extremists will ever change –it defines their very existence. They just need to made irrelevant by the larger, more moderate forces at work on both sides. And again this extends back to state sponsors such as Iran and Syria, especially Iran, and I do believe that a moderate Iran is key to long term peace.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Why? Because this is an internal conflict between two native populations. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't involve neighbring nations at all in the process, but to act like they need to be involved lockstep with every move, and need to put up the land and resources to house hundreds of thousands of refugess that have nothing to do with them is completely unrealistic and redundant. If you're not talking about them getting involved along those lines, then why do they need to be equal partners in the process? The most ability to change this lies wih the Israelis, then the Palestinians....and then everyone else waaaaaaaaaaay down on the totem pole. Talking like the neighboring countries NEED to be involved for anything to hapen is just another way of deferring from the reality of who has the most power to make things change.

Not lockstep but is has to be a regional, then an international solution. You can’t put Israel and the territories in a box and expect them to emerge in peace. I think this applies economically and politically, and militarily. How can there be a viable economy without the border states involvement? Border states Egypt and Jordan have pretty much washed their hands of the problem and if they’re a moderate force that has in fact established peace with Israel how can they not be and optimistic part of the potential solution. Are they not a model at least for some sort of interim peace? In the end the economy needs to be real– with real security – with the border states.

But the larger point really that I continue to make is that the extremists in the territories are surrogates of state sponsored terrorism – Iran mostly, then Syria and many others. Until that changes there is no possibility whatsoever for peace! I previously described a scenario where Israel pretty much did everything it could in its power to arrive at peace. But again, even with all that, the question of the extremists and their state sponsors remained unanswered. If the approach is to make peace in Israel and the territories and the others will follow, I really think that falls short.

[TheMojoPin]

Not lockstep but is has to be a regional, then an international solution. You can’t put Israel and the territories in a box and expect them to emerge in peace. I think this applies economically and politically, and militarily. How can there be a viable economy without the border states involvement? Border states Egypt and Jordan have pretty much washed their hands of the problem and if they’re a moderate force that has in fact established peace with Israel how can they not be and optimistic part of the potential solution. Are they not a model at least for some sort of interim peace? In the end the economy needs to be real– with real security – with the border states.

But the larger point really that I continue to make is that the extremists in the territories are surrogates of state sponsored terrorism – Iran mostly, then Syria and many others. Until that changes there is no possibility whatsoever for peace! I previously described a scenario where Israel pretty much did everything it could in its power to arrive at peace. But again, even with all that, the question of the extremists and their state sponsors remained unanswered. If the approach is to make peace in Israel and the territories and the others will follow, I really think that falls short.

That's still ultimately excusing the shit going on in their own backyard because of the bigger picture. It's a fancy way of saying, "oh, we can't fix this bigger problem, so we might as well not even bother with the one right under our noses."

What can involving the neighboring states accomplish that Israel and Palestine working together directly can't accomplish?

[SonOfSmeagol]

That's still ultimately excusing the shit going on in their own backyard because of the bigger picture. It's a fancy way of saying, "oh, we can't fix this bigger problem, so we might as well not even bother with the one right under our noses."

What can involving the neighboring states accomplish that Israel and Palestine working together directly can't accomplish?

Not an excuse, but the bigger picture is the real picture as I continue to point out! Again, not to pound it but I've previously presented the scenario you describe:

“Let’s assume that, for the sake of argument, that - Israel – as we know it today - granted true equality to all Palestinians. There is no requirement that one be Jewish to be Israeli (there isn’t now – but assume it’s real and not just on paper). Assume that the territorial borders went away, all residents were declared equal under the law, and all the resources were shared across the board according to need, not nationality or religion or historical claims or whatever. Thus, the Israelis as we know them today in this scenario have done everything they can to distribute the power, open the economy, equal the political landscape, and welcome all the residents of the land as equal brothers and sisters. Both parties that reside on the land have put aside ill will in the interest of peace. In fact – they would have to come up with a new name – like Palestireal or Israelistine!”

Again, this is beyond the question of the neighboring states which I’ve stated are somewhat “less important” but still important.

The follow up on the scenario is “If only Israel would make the first move the logjam would free up and peace would be closer? If that happened, what would that mean with respect to the extremists like Hamas? Would they, others like them, and their state sponsors disavow themselves of their intentions and live in peace?”

To say, essentially, “build peace and they shall come” is not realistic. It appeals to the emotions but little else!

[TheMojoPin]

Not an excuse, but the bigger picture is the real picture as I continue to point out! Again, not to pound it but I've previously presented the scenario you describe:

“Let’s assume that, for the sake of argument, that - Israel – as we know it today - granted true equality to all Palestinians. There is no requirement that one be Jewish to be Israeli (there isn’t now – but assume it’s real and not just on paper). Assume that the territorial borders went away, all residents were declared equal under the law, and all the resources were shared across the board according to need, not nationality or religion or historical claims or whatever. Thus, the Israelis as we know them today in this scenario have done everything they can to distribute the power, open the economy, equal the political landscape, and welcome all the residents of the land as equal brothers and sisters. Both parties that reside on the land have put aside ill will in the interest of peace. In fact – they would have to come up with a new name – like Palestireal or Israelistine!”

Again, this is beyond the question of the neighboring states which I’ve stated are somewhat “less important” but still important.

The follow up on the scenario is “If only Israel would make the first move the logjam would free up and peace would be closer? If that happened, what would that mean with respect to the extremists like Hamas? Would they, others like them, and their state sponsors disavow themselves of their intentions and live in peace?”

To say, essentially, “build peace and they shall come” is not realistic. It appeals to the emotions but little else!

I honestly have no clue as to what you're talking about.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I honestly have no clue as to what you're talking about.

Well, I think I objectively tried to describe a "what-if" for the situation you proposed. One where Israel steps up and does pretty much everything they can for peace in the land. And my point was that even if this happened there are so many other questions that remain unaddressed (not necessarily by you...just unaddressed and unanswered). Mainly with the extremists but other factors as well. Questions that point to the fact that it's so much more than up to Israel to solve, or even begin to solve, that it's a regional and international economic, political, and military problem.

[TheMojoPin]

Well, I think I objectively tried to describe a "what-if" for the situation you proposed. One where Israel steps up and does pretty much everything they can for peace in the land. And my point was that even if this happened there are so many other questions that remain unaddressed (not necessarily by you...just unaddressed and unanswered). Mainly with the extremists but other factors as well. Questions that point to the fact that it's so much more than up to Israel to solve, or even begin to solve, that it's a regional and international economic, political, and military problem.

Well, yeah, but it's not like they should or even could deal with everything at once. Might as well start with the problems in their own backyard, which is ultimately an internal issue uber alles. Then try and tackle the other stuff. A strong Israel would be better suited for that.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Well, yeah, but it's not like they should or even could deal with everything at once. Might as well start with the problems in their own backyard, which is ultimately an internal issue uber alles. Then try and tackle the other stuff. A strong Israel would be better suited for that.

But let me ask, for the here and now. Should Israel withdraw now and then absorb the rocket attacks indefinitely from Hamas? Again I use the loaded gun analogy. “If I keep firing a loaded gun at you and miss most of the time, can you live with that in peace?”

Absolutely no doubt of the bloodshed. And again, I know the death toll from rocket attacks on Israel has been relatively low, but where and when does this current situation stop?

[TheMojoPin]

But let me ask, for the here and now. Should Israel withdraw now and then absorb the rocket attacks indefinitely from Hamas? Again I use the loaded gun analogy. “If I keep firing a loaded gun at you and miss most of the time, can you live with that in peace?”

Absolutely no doubt of the bloodshed. And again, I know the death toll from rocket attacks on Israel has been relatively low, but where and when does this current situation stop?

There's no reason for them to just sit back and take the rockets. Why don't the Israelis counter themilitary actions with something elsewhere? It's not like they can ONLY respond with the military, nor do the rockets and attacks happen on a nonstop basis. Counter military action with something else that helps the Palestinian economy or setllement issues. Right now they're acting like their options are do nothing or respond with the military. Occupy Gaza, but make gestures elsewhere.

[high fly]

I think in the communist situation we basically outspent them in real and perceived defense capabilities and ended up “winning” the cold war. And there, no one really wanted to die for the cause.
The Canal was a unique situation which I didn’t agree with at the time but since, due to our technological innovations, and our expansion into a truly global force, and the fact that many of our warships no longer fit through the canal – make it largely obsolete.
N Korea is another unique situation, they have become more and more irrelevant, and I believe they have had no choice other than to cooperate somewhat or simply implode. But yes negotiations have had an effect there for sure. But again, if there was ever was anyone unwilling to die for the cause it really is those guys.

Egypt and Jordan are excellent examples! Most citizens are Muslim, but the governments (far from democratic by the way) have actively kept the extremists down. That’s not to say all Muslims are potential extremists, just that the disparate people can and do get along. And because they border with Israel and the territories they are central to successful peace in the region in the long term.

I really do not think that the basic position of the extremists will ever change –it defines their very existence. They just need to made irrelevant by the larger, more moderate forces at work on both sides. And again this extends back to state sponsors such as Iran and Syria, especially Iran, and I do believe that a moderate Iran is key to long term peace.



You may not want their position to change, but that is just what negotiations are for, and what they do.
We have seen positions change on the part of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, and the PLO, and it looks as if Syria is coming around.
Once extremists get in power, they tend to become less extreme, we saw that with the PLO as well as former terrorists in Irgun and the Stern Gang when they ruled Israel.

You are being given concrete examples from history and the smart person adapts their position to the facts.
Negotiations can and do often work.

[high fly]

Not an excuse, but the bigger picture is the real picture as I continue to point out! Again, not to pound it but I've previously presented the scenario you describe:

“Let’s assume that, for the sake of argument, that - Israel – as we know it today - granted true equality to all Palestinians. There is no requirement that one be Jewish to be Israeli (there isn’t now – but assume it’s real and not just on paper). Assume that the territorial borders went away, all residents were declared equal under the law, and all the resources were shared across the board according to need, not nationality or religion or historical claims or whatever. Thus, the Israelis as we know them today in this scenario have done everything they can to distribute the power, open the economy, equal the political landscape, and welcome all the residents of the land as equal brothers and sisters. Both parties that reside on the land have put aside ill will in the interest of peace. In fact – they would have to come up with a new name – like Palestireal or Israelistine!”

Again, this is beyond the question of the neighboring states which I’ve stated are somewhat “less important” but still important.

The follow up on the scenario is “If only Israel would make the first move the logjam would free up and peace would be closer? If that happened, what would that mean with respect to the extremists like Hamas? Would they, others like them, and their state sponsors disavow themselves of their intentions and live in peace?”

To say, essentially, “build peace and they shall come” is not realistic. It appeals to the emotions but little else!



Of course it is realistic because why would anyone support Hamas otherwise?
These things don't come absolutely unilaterally, they come through negotiation when both sides are tired of the killing and wish a better life for themselves and their children.
Right now, this invasion is giving the Arabs further incentive to continue fighting.
It's not so much one side building the peace and waiting for the other to come.
It's more both sides working together to mutually build the peace so there is no more reason for war.


Focus on the goal - people living together in peace - and the steps to get to that place become more clear, and the things that prevent the goal from being achieved - like this invasion - become evidently prohibitive to achieving the goal.




EDIT: One more point - with the world in a severe recession and it just getting worse, imagine what will happen to Israel once nations begin implementing economic sanctions as a result of this invasion....

[SonOfSmeagol]

There's no reason for them to just sit back and take the rockets. Why don't the Israelis counter themilitary actions with something elsewhere? It's not like they can ONLY respond with the military, nor do the rockets and attacks happen on a nonstop basis. Counter military action with something else that helps the Palestinian economy or setllement issues. Right now they're acting like their options are do nothing or respond with the military. Occupy Gaza, but make gestures elsewhere.

I understand this statement to be that you are saying that it’s ok for if Israel to use force to stop these attacks as long as they moderate their current Gaza actions with simultaneous economy and settlement actions elsewhere. I really see no other interpretation.

[SonOfSmeagol]

You may not want their position to change, but that is just what negotiations are for, and what they do.
We have seen positions change on the part of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, and the PLO, and it looks as if Syria is coming around.
Once extremists get in power, they tend to become less extreme, we saw that with the PLO as well as former terrorists in Irgun and the Stern Gang when they ruled Israel.

You are being given concrete examples from history and the smart person adapts their position to the facts.
Negotiations can and do often work.

I never said that I didn’t want their position to change, only in effect that I think the Islamic extremists really have no position in the civilized world and that they ultimately need to become, should become irrelevant. How to get there is really undetermined at this point - whether by force or diplomacy is completed unknown.

The PLO then the PA has become largely a non factor – in no small part due to non support from the moderate Arab/other brethren. I would venture that some sort of showdown is in the works. If you or I knew for sure then we’re in the wrong business. I’m not sure Syria is coming around, only that they are the weaker brother of Iran and that they may be hedging their bet to some extent. Iran is the ultimate problem at this point and I see a moderate Iran as a big step in the right direction.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Of course it is realistic because why would anyone support Hamas otherwise?
These things don't come absolutely unilaterally, they come through negotiation when both sides are tired of the killing and wish a better life for themselves and their children.
Right now, this invasion is giving the Arabs further incentive to continue fighting.
It's not so much one side building the peace and waiting for the other to come.
It's more both sides working together to mutually build the peace so there is no more reason for war.

Focus on the goal - people living together in peace - and the steps to get to that place become more clear, and the things that prevent the goal from being achieved - like this invasion - become evidently prohibitive to achieving the goal.

EDIT: One more point - with the world in a severe recession and it just getting worse, imagine what will happen to Israel once nations begin implementing economic sanctions as a result of this invasion....

I can’t disagree with that, but I have to add that the continued attacks on Israeli cities are also prohibitive to achieving the goal. Also, real sanctions against Israel are very very unlikely.

[A.J.]

Excellent article in yesterday's paper that articulates some of the points I tried to make before. Unfortunately, this is a pdf file so you'll have to scroll down to Page 2 for the article: "How Israel Became A Rogue State". (http://www.gulf-times.com/mritems/streams/2009/1/11/2_265910_1_255.pdf)

Oh, and the author is obviously a self-hating Jew.

[RogerPodacter]

the one issue that always resonates in my mind is the fact that there are 22 arab/muslim countries that exist in the world. and the jews only have one tiny 50 mile strip of land, and yet the arabs want THAT too? i mean i understand all the history of the region and all, but geez, that particular land is not even the muslim holy site. arabs have mecca, amoung other holy sites.

now imagine the entire state of new jersey was constantly being attacked by the surrounding states and the entire USA in general. what would that feel like if you were a new jersey citizen? that small portion of land of new jersey is about the equivalent size of what we are talking about in israel. for a people to not have a homeland, basically a right to exist, is a pretty crazy thing to experience if you put yourself in their shoes. and when you look on a map of the middle east and see 22 HUGE arab countries all around, and that one tiny spot of land that is israel, it seems pretty selfish on the arabs part that they cant at least try to let israel exist on this planet.

[TheMojoPin]

the one issue that always resonates in my mind is the fact that there are 22 arab/muslim countries that exist in the world. and the jews only have one tiny 50 mile strip of land, and yet the arabs want THAT too? i mean i understand all the history of the region and all, but geez, that particular land is not even the muslim holy site. arabs have mecca, amoung other holy sites.

now imagine the entire state of new jersey was constantly being attacked by the surrounding states and the entire USA in general. what would that feel like if you were a new jersey citizen? that small portion of land of new jersey is about the equivalent size of what we are talking about in israel. for a people to not have a homeland, basically a right to exist, is a pretty crazy thing to experience if you put yourself in their shoes. and when you look on a map of the middle east and see 22 HUGE arab countries all around, and that one tiny spot of land that is israel, it seems pretty selfish on the arabs part that they cant at least try to let israel exist on this planet.

The Arab countires are all different with varying populations. It's the height of arrogance to simply assume that the population of one area can move into aother and everything would be fine or that logistically they could even do that in the first place. The "other Arab countries" aren't where the Palestinians are from. Israel/Palestine is their home. Why should they have to leave? Why don't they get a say in how their country is run? Why should another country be expected to want to or be able to absorb almost 1.5. million refugees from a totally different country? Why do the Israelis have any more claim to the land than the Palestinians?

And your hypothetical fails because it totally subtracts the history and the context of the Israel/Palestine conflict. Why is Jersey being attacked? By whom? How was Jersey created? All of those questions need to be shaped like the Israel/Palestine conflict before you can assume your hypothetical has any legs.

[high fly]

the one issue that always resonates in my mind is the fact that there are 22 arab/muslim countries that exist in the world. and the jews only have one tiny 50 mile strip of land, and yet the arabs want THAT too? i mean i understand all the history of the region and all, but geez, that particular land is not even the muslim holy site. arabs have mecca, amoung other holy sites.


In fact they Arabs do see it as holy to them.
Remember, the Muslims believe themselves likewise to be descendants of Abraham.

Remember, for hundreds of years the Jews and Muslims got along well in the region.
Indeed, through history the far greater enemies of the Jews have been the Christians.

Part of the objection to Israel is not so much the Jews coming back, but the ones who have fair skin and blue or green eyes and who the Arabs see as bringing western culture in. Those Jews are not viewed as legit descendants of the Jews who once lived there because they don't look like them.
On the other hand, the Arab Muslims largely view as legit the black haired, black eyed and olive-skinned Jews whose culture is pretty much the same as that of the Arab Muslims and Arab Christians....

[high fly]

I never said that I didn’t want their position to change, only in effect that I think the Islamic extremists really have no position in the civilized world and that they ultimately need to become, should become irrelevant. How to get there is really undetermined at this point - whether by force or diplomacy is completed unknown.


Look at how other extremist groups became more mainstream for the answer.
You can start with the terrorists of Irgun and the Stern Gang who were just as extreme as Hamas is today.

Then you can examine how the PLO changed over time, especially after they, too, got political power and had to actually administer the territory they got autonomy over. The more responsibility they were given, the more they realized that they can't operate schools and deal with the mundane tasks of running a government on a battlefield.





The PLO then the PA has become largely a non factor – in no small part due to non support from the moderate Arab/other brethren.

In Gaza, yes, because they were not able to deal with administering the area, for reasons including their own ineptitude, lack of expertise as well as other factors such as the way Israel dealt with them and the US.
They are not a non-factor on the West Bank, where they run the place.
They would still be in charge in Gaza had Bush not pushed them to hold elections before they were ready and before they had sufficient security forces to deal with Hamas.


I would venture that some sort of showdown is in the works. If you or I knew for sure then we’re in the wrong business. I’m not sure Syria is coming around, only that they are the weaker brother of Iran and that they may be hedging their bet to some extent. Iran is the ultimate problem at this point and I see a moderate Iran as a big step in the right direction.


Syria works with Iran to an extent, but they have serious differences as well. Remember, Syria is ruled by Sunni Alawites and is Arab whereas Iran is Persians ruled by Shiites.
This is a largely feudal, tribal culture and must be seen through that lens (to give an example impacting a separate issue, few Americans who claimed Saddam sent his WMD to Syria are aware that Saddam's Tikriti clan has a running blood feud with the Alawites of Syria).

For the last year, Syria has been engaged in negotiations with Israel moderated by the Turks and they want very much to conclude a peace treaty with Israel that would include at least a symbolic return of some of the Golan Heights, which Israel may be amenable to if it can be demilitarized and monitored by international peacekeepers.
These negotiations have been largely kept quiet, but they are taking place and both countries have tangible interests in seeing them succeed.
If Israel can get Syria sidelined, Hezbollah would be isolated in Lebanon and a cleanup ofthat mess could then begin.
Assad wants to be a player and Israel is the only game in town. Plus, Lebanon is a headache and a drain on Syria as well as a threat.
Have you been following closely the last few years as three Syrian generals have been killed (one "committed suicide"), as well as the assassination of Imad Mughniya? This wasn't all done by Israel, though they got blamed, of course.

[RogerPodacter]

In fact they Arabs do see it as holy to them.
Remember, the Muslims believe themselves likewise to be descendants of Abraham.

Remember, for hundreds of years the Jews and Muslims got along well in the region.
Indeed, through history the far greater enemies of the Jews have been the Christians.

Part of the objection to Israel is not so much the Jews coming back, but the ones who have fair skin and blue or green eyes and who the Arabs see as bringing western culture in. Those Jews are not viewed as legit descendants of the Jews who once lived there because they don't look like them.
On the other hand, the Arab Muslims largely view as legit the black haired, black eyed and olive-skinned Jews whose culture is pretty much the same as that of the Arab Muslims and Arab Christians....

i understand. but i'm willing to bet that when palestinian muslims pray, they face mecca and not jerusalem.

i totally admit that i waaay over simplified everything. but just trying to put things into perspective. how the jews got there in 1948 and were given that land, maybe it was wrong. but they're there now and would like to try to exist in some form.

i realize that many different arab nations practice different religious forms. but if UN, or UK or USA can come together and rally for israel, why cant all or any of the 22 muslim nations rally for the palestinians with something of substance? i mean the poor people are suffering badly over there...

[high fly]

i understand. but i'm willing to bet that when palestinian muslims pray, they face mecca and not jerusalem.

i totally admit that i waaay over simplified everything. but just trying to put things into perspective. how the jews got there in 1948 and were given that land, maybe it was wrong. but they're there now and would like to try to exist in some form.

i realize that many different arab nations practice different religious forms. but if UN, or UK or USA can come together and rally for israel, why cant all or any of the 22 muslim nations rally for the palestinians with something of substance? i mean the poor people are suffering badly over there...


Sure, they face toward Mecca.
I fail to see the point.

It is worth pointing out that for centuries the Jews and Muslims got along just fine living together. In fact, Mohammed ordered they be protected.
The Arab countries have indeed acted substantively for the Palestinians.
The reason the Red Cross id finding people suffering from malnutrition in Gaza is because of an Israeli blockade - a blockade preventing food and medical supplies from coming in from those other Arab countries.
Sending food and medical supplies is substantive.

In recent years, Israel has pretty much accepted what was rquired of them by UN Resolution 242. Had they accepted it when it was passed, there would be peace there now.


It's not just the various Arab nations that are different, but they must be understood for having an often dramatically different culture than the West, which includes ways of expressing themselves that is often unfathomable to us in the West; as well as the differences between sects and tribes.

[TheMojoPin]

i totally admit that i waaay over simplified everything. but just trying to put things into perspective. how the jews got there in 1948 and were given that land, maybe it was wrong. but they're there now and would like to try to exist in some form.

They're not the only ones there.

[A.J.]

In fact they Arabs do see it as holy to them.
Remember, the Muslims believe themselves likewise to be descendants of Abraham.

Remember, for hundreds of years the Jews and Muslims got along well in the region.
Indeed, through history the far greater enemies of the Jews have been the Christians

Well said, and even though I'm hardly religious, I wonder why nobody has mentioned the fact that maybe why Jerusalem is so important to the Big 3 religions is that perhaps God wanted them all to share it and come together it some fashion. It doesn't belong to one, it belongs to all.

[Philly Franko]

I do not Like Humus,nasty on crackers...prefer the triple Angry Whopper with extra cheese ,no mayo...use ketchup instead and No Pickles...hey they said have it your way. can i have mine with a sweet R n F gurl.....Please....does anyone mix Dr Pepper with coke and sprite...ot just the pure Coke? what no pee in someones assss choice?:drunk: ESD and Special hot sauce show rule...who is the drunk dialer Sam or Dave ?:devil2:

[keithy_19]

I do not Like Humus,nasty on crackers...prefer the triple Angry Whopper with extra cheese ,no mayo...use ketchup instead and No Pickles...hey they said have it your way. can i have mine with a sweet R n F gurl.....Please....does anyone mix Dr Pepper with coke and sprite...ot just the pure Coke? what no pee in someones assss choice?:drunk: ESD and Special hot sauce show rule...who is the drunk dialer Sam or Dave ?:devil2:

This is why there is war everywhere.

[Enabler]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20090113/i/r1645453159.jpg?x=400&y=268&q=85&sig=uPOgEPTsDFnq6BOHdoWTgw--
Hardline demonstrators burn posters of U.S. President-elect Barack Obama, during a demonstration in support of the people of Gaza, in front of the Swiss Embassy in Tehran January 13, 2009.
REUTERS/Stringer (IRAN)



They're already burning Obama in effigy in Tehran. Do they not know that he isn't President yet or are they just letting the USA know that they hate us no matter what? And that everything bad that happens to them is the fault of the United States? I generally try my hardest to stay out of these types of threads but both sides of this conflict are completely batshit insane. It seriously will never end until most of the people in the region are dead from some type of awful warfare.

[Thebazile78]

Well said, and even though I'm hardly religious, I wonder why nobody has mentioned the fact that maybe why Jerusalem is so important to the Big 3 religions is that perhaps God wanted them all to share it and come together it some fashion. It doesn't belong to one, it belongs to all.

My dad has been talking about this for years, a kind of "why can't we all just get along?" hypothetical about sharing the Holy Land.

Of course, his entire hypothetical depends upon people acting like civilized human beings and not animals, which is something that rarely happens when religion is involved because everybody's pissing on everybody else trying to prove someone else wrong.

[TheMojoPin]

They're already burning Obama in effigy in Tehran. Do they not know that he isn't President yet or are they just letting the USA know that they hate us no matter what? And that everything bad that happens to them is the fault of the United States?

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Whatever Obama does as president, he's not rocking the boat in terms of Israel. The US' support of Israel isn't chagning for the forseeable future.

[A.J.]

They're already burning Obama in effigy in Tehran. Do they not know that he isn't President yet or are they just letting the USA know that they hate us no matter what? And that everything bad that happens to them is the fault of the United States? I generally try my hardest to stay out of these types of threads but both sides of this conflict are completely batshit insane. It seriously will never end until most of the people in the region are dead from some type of awful warfare.

They're pissed, as are a lot of other people over here, that he hasn't said anything publically about what's going on in Gaza. Yeah, maybe it's the "one President at a time" mantra, but he DID manage to talk about using the veto already before he's been sworn in.

[A.J.]

My dad has been talking about this for years, a kind of "why can't we all just get along?" hypothetical about sharing the Holy Land.

Of course, his entire hypothetical depends upon people acting like civilized human beings and not animals, which is something that rarely happens when religion is involved because everybody's pissing on everybody else trying to prove someone else wrong.

And everybody's been claiming rightful historic ownership of said Holy Lands.

[A.J.]

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Whatever Obama does as president, he's not rocking the boat in terms of Israel. The US' support of Israel isn't chagning for the forseeable future.

Especially not if he wants a second term.

[keithy_19]

They're pissed, as are a lot of other people over here, that he hasn't said anything publically about what's going on in Gaza. Yeah, maybe it's the "one President at a time" mantra, but he DID manage to talk about using the veto already before he's been sworn in.

It's bullshit. He's picking and choosing what to talk about. If you're going to talk about certain things man up and express it about all.

[TheMojoPin]

It's bullshit. He's picking and choosing what to talk about. If you're going to talk about certain things man up and express it about all.

It's pretty stupid for a president-elect to play his foreign affars cards before he's in office and can do shit about/with them.

[Death Metal Moe]

It's bullshit. He's picking and choosing what to talk about. If you're going to talk about certain things man up and express it about all.

He'll have 4 entire years to "man up" and show us exactly what his policies will be. I think it's actually quite respectful of him NOT to start spouting his policies and plans while Bush is still the sitting president.

[Furtherman]

It's bullshit. He's picking and choosing what to talk about. If you're going to talk about certain things man up and express it about all.

Well then why doesn't he cime in on all the world's problems? This Israel-Gaza bullshit isn't even the biggest one.

So no, it's not bullshit.

[Furtherman]

And everybody's been claiming rightful historic ownership of said Holy Lands.

That's why we should leave them alone.

god promised you this land? Well, we already unceremoniously dropped one of the two sides in there, so good luck and have it out. If god promised the land, then god will help you sort it out.

And then we can go on our merry way.

[dino_electropolis]

I'm for the Palestinians, despite the terrorist group they put in charge.


Enough with Israel already. They were placed in a land that was not theirs. If it truly did belong to them, why/how did they lose it in the first place? Why were there so many jews living in germany and not present day Israel? Besides, from a biblical standpoint (for whatever that is worth) arent they a NOMADIC tribe? Are they supposed to have ANY land, or just wander the planet like their ancestors?


What really gets me is Israel's puppeteering of the US. Classic tail wagging the dog situation. The only reason they have bombs with which to kill INNOCENT civilians is because we not only allow them to, but we encourage them to.

Logical Sequence:
Most of the planet resents Israel. (ever wonder why?)
We support Israel to no end.
Most of the planet resents us (admittedly, for other reasons as well, but this dont help)


Bottom line: lets just stay the fuck out of Israel politics. Sure they got all this clout in the mid east, but thats because they have us to back them up. Guaranteed that if we ignore it, Israel would be decimated at the hands of all those neighboring countries. So ask yourself, why do we refuse to ignore it?

[NewYorkDragons80]

Well said. I would add that Israel's occupation/settlement of lands that were promised to the Palestinians isn't exactly helping the situation. King 'Abdallah of Saudi Arabia proposed a peace plan that guaranteed Arab recognition and peace with Israel if they returned to the 1967 borders. I forget how similar/different this plan is compared to the one Dragons cited above.

The plan I cited would put the West Bank and Gaza under Jordanian and Egyptian stewardship, respectively. I think Jordan is ready for a federal kingdom, and Egypt probably is equipped to govern Gaza, though the latter would probably be less just in its governance. The problem with the Arab Peace Initiative is its institutionalizing a divided Jerusalem. The only solution I can see is a Jerusalem city-state under joint Arab and Jewish control.

[high fly]

They're pissed, as are a lot of other people over here, that he hasn't said anything publically about what's going on in Gaza. Yeah, maybe it's the "one President at a time" mantra, but he DID manage to talk about using the veto already before he's been sworn in.


It's bullshit. He's picking and choosing what to talk about. If you're going to talk about certain things man up and express it about all.


It's not bullshit.
Bush is still the president and the president-elect should not get into something as delicate as this.
It is a different situation than his statement about the veto or what he has said about other issues.
He can only go so far, and to advocate a president-elect - any president-elect - cutting the legs out from under a sitting president just to "man up" is foolish and not in the national interest...

[scottinnj]

now imagine the entire state of new jersey was constantly being attacked by the surrounding states and the entire USA in general. what would that feel like if you were a new jersey citizen?

I'd join the other side and sell all you fuckers out.

[boosterp]

Israel is right for ignoring the international community. It is tough when Hamas is too chicken shit and use the civilians as shields.

[west milly Tom]

I'd join the other side and sell all you fuckers out.



I'm pullin your jersey card sir

[Thebazile78]

Israel is right for ignoring the international community. It is tough when Hamas is too chicken shit and use the civilians as shields.

Does that have anything to do with their bombing of the UN compound in Gaza earlier today (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/16/world/middleeast/16mideast.html?hp)?

[Syd]

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/904/humanshieldgazaje0.th.jpg (http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=humanshieldgazaje0.jpg)

etc

Israeli is responsible for a littany of war crimes. No matter how evil you think Hamas is, the IDF has done every bit the same (or often times, worse)

[high fly]

Israel is right for ignoring the international community. It is tough when Hamas is too chicken shit and use the civilians as shields.

It was pretty "tough" on the over 100 people who were massacred at Qana when Israeli artillery shelled the refugee camp, where no terrorists were hiding behind civilians.

It was likewise "tough" for about 800 civilians massacred at the Shatila and Sabra refugee camps by Israeli proxies, as the Israeli army looked on after allowing those proxies to go in there, an then refusing to do anything to stop it.


There is a widespread misconception that Israel has not attacked civilians in it's history.
They have, from 1948 to the present.
There is also the misconception that pointing this out somehow is being made by those who support terrorism by Hamas, Hezbollah or others.
The fact is, both sides have done it and both sides are wrong in each instance.
Because of their superior firepower, the amount of innocent blood on Israeli hands is greater, I think, if one were to add them all up.


It is "chickenshit" to blame one and seek to justify the other for doing the same thing.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I think the Israelis have a very very low tolerance for being attacked, and again I say you don’t want to fuck with them. You can yap all you want about what they’ve done and what they should do and what they should not have done, but the reality is that it’s happening and they will continue to do what they believe they need to do to survive.

You might say they’re on the defensive and have been for some time. It hasn’t been that long, really, since the Jews were on the receiving end of some serious shit. As in 5.75 million-6 million dead, genocide kind of shit. Only sixty years or so since then, so talk about “since the forties they have or have not done X”, like it was some kind of “reset” after WWII, or “let’s all be friends from now on” is just bullshit and not realistic. Again – from the Israeli Jew point of view I would guess.

You might say that talk of wiping Israel away, etc. kind of rings a bell with the Jews. Their “big picture” might be different from the outsider. To stop attacks and - to put a point on it – say “don’t fuck with us because no way no how is it even going to come close to happening again” - if they have to kill 2 innocents or even many more for every 1 “militant” and the numbers stay, say in the low thousands they’re probably going to continue do it. And I still say that I don’t think they are deliberately targeting non-combatants.

Even the numbers are somewhat indicative - there are about 5 Million Israeli Jews and about 1.2 Billion Muslims and 1.5 Billion Christians right now. Not inflaming - not nearly all are enemies. But Israel has got the motivation and firepower to defend and they’re going to continue to so. The only thing I think they have to prove is long-term survival, and more or less world opinion be damned because I believe from their perspective much more is at stake.

[Yerdaddy]

Her left eye is lazy

[colonel angus]

When our (US) society stops equating the Israeli government with "God's chosen" and true "Jews"; and take the plight of the Palestinians seriously, there will be a chance for peace. Until then, I have to take Israel late in the fourth. After all, they have the nukes....

[TheMojoPin]

Her left eye is lazy

Nicotine and gravy.

[TheMojoPin]

I think the Israelis have a very very low tolerance for being attacked, and again I say you don’t want to fuck with them. You can yap all you want about what they’ve done and what they should do and what they should not have done, but the reality is that it’s happening and they will continue to do what they believe they need to do to survive.

You might say they’re on the defensive and have been for some time. It hasn’t been that long, really, since the Jews were on the receiving end of some serious shit. As in 5.75 million-6 million dead, genocide kind of shit. Only sixty years or so since then, so talk about “since the forties they have or have not done X”, like it was some kind of “reset” after WWII, or “let’s all be friends from now on” is just bullshit and not realistic. Again – from the Israeli Jew point of view I would guess.

And yet again, moving to region where a massive inlux of foriegn Jewush immigrats would be taken as a hostile action probably wasn't the smartest of moves. It's not like they were sneak attacked by the idea that displacing a ton of people and taking over the most "holy" city in the world for 3 major religions was going to cause some problems. Justifications like the one above frame the whole thing like the Israelis are victims in the entire affair and ONLY on the defensive. It's like everyone actually wats to go back to the "good ol' days" when you could just displace or wipe out anative population and that was that. Well, sorry, this isn't 1492...there's accountability. You don't get to play the "we're the victim" card when you're clearly victimizing someone else.

[A.J.]

Good times this weekend as the Amir hosted that last minute summit on Gaza. Doha was in lockdown.

[Syd]

I think the Israelis have a very very low tolerance for being attacked, and again I say you don’t want to fuck with them. You can yap all you want about what they’ve done and what they should do and what they should not have done, but the reality is that it’s happening and they will continue to do what they believe they need to do to survive.

You might say they’re on the defensive and have been for some time. It hasn’t been that long, really, since the Jews were on the receiving end of some serious shit. As in 5.75 million-6 million dead, genocide kind of shit. Only sixty years or so since then, so talk about “since the forties they have or have not done X”, like it was some kind of “reset” after WWII, or “let’s all be friends from now on” is just bullshit and not realistic. Again – from the Israeli Jew point of view I would guess.

You might say that talk of wiping Israel away, etc. kind of rings a bell with the Jews. Their “big picture” might be different from the outsider. To stop attacks and - to put a point on it – say “don’t fuck with us because no way no how is it even going to come close to happening again” - if they have to kill 2 innocents or even many more for every 1 “militant” and the numbers stay, say in the low thousands they’re probably going to continue do it. And I still say that I don’t think they are deliberately targeting non-combatants.

Even the numbers are somewhat indicative - there are about 5 Million Israeli Jews and about 1.2 Billion Muslims and 1.5 Billion Christians right now. Not inflaming - not nearly all are enemies. But Israel has got the motivation and firepower to defend and they’re going to continue to so. The only thing I think they have to prove is long-term survival, and more or less world opinion be damned because I believe from their perspective much more is at stake.

So, long term survival excuses their ongoing genocide of Palestinians? far out

[SonOfSmeagol]

And yet again, moving to region where a massive inlux of foriegn Jewush immigrats would be taken as a hostile action probably wasn't the smartest of moves. It's not like they were sneak attacked by the idea that displacing a ton of people and taking over the most "holy" city in the world for 3 major religions was going to cause some problems. Justifications like the one above frame the whole thing like the Israelis are victims in the entire affair and ONLY on the defensive. It's like everyone actually wats to go back to the "good ol' days" when you could just displace or wipe out anative population and that was that. Well, sorry, this isn't 1492...there's accountability. You don't get to play the "we're the victim" card when you're clearly victimizing someone else.

It’s very easy to revisit history and say what-if, and it really solves nothing. And when treading on the history of the Jews circa WWII- good luck. Not really meant to be a justification, just a perspective. For accountability the best the world could come up with recently as far as a consensus was a call for an immediate ceasefire. As for victimization it’s much much more subtle than that – I don’t think the Israeli Jews “play the card” overtly if at all – it’s much more expressed as a “don’t fuck with us” attitude backed up by force and the will to use it. The fact also remains that if the state of Israel had wanted to “wipe out” anyone they could’ve done it years ago, with conventional means, and many times over.

[SonOfSmeagol]

So, long term survival excuses their ongoing genocide of Palestinians? far out

"genocide of Palestinians" by Israel? Not very fucking likely by any definition.

[TheMojoPin]

It’s very easy to revisit history and say what-if, and it really solves nothing. And when treading on the history of the Jews circa WWII- good luck. Not really meant to be a justification, just a perspective. For accountability the best the world could come up with recently as far as a consensus was a call for an immediate ceasefire. As for victimization it’s much much more subtle than that – I don’t think the Israeli Jews “play the card” overtly if at all – it’s much more expressed as a “don’t fuck with us” attitude backed up by force and the will to use it. The fact also remains that if the state of Israel had wanted to “wipe out” anyone they could’ve done it years ago, with conventional means, and many times over.

They couldn't have done so without serious repercussions that likely would have led to another world war. Let's face fact...Israel wouldn't have just steamrolled any nation they felt like without something going down.

Besides, haing the capability to "wipte everyone out" and choosing not to doesn't justify anything else they do. It's not like choosing to not kill everyone automatically makes them in the right.

[SonOfSmeagol]

They couldn't have done so without serious repercussions that likely would have led to another world war. Let's face fact...Israel wouldn't have just steamrolled any nation they felt like without something going down.

Besides, haing the capability to "wipte everyone out" and choosing not to doesn't justify anything else they do. It's not like choosing to not kill everyone automatically makes them in the right.

Maybe, maybe not, since the Arab-Israeli wars of the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and beyond were the result of attacks and/or threats by surrounding nation-states against Israel. Attacks or threats with the stated intention of destroying Israel. "steamroll" might not be the best choice of terms in these conflicts had Israel chose to advance. And once again it is not a matter of CHOICE of “wiping everyone out”, it is desire and intent. There are in fact significant forces in this world that want Israel and the Jews to disappear from the face of the earth by whatever means necessary.

[TheMojoPin]

There are in fact significant forces in this world that want Israel and the Jews to disappear from the face of the earth by whatever means necessary.

Numerous countries and social groups can claim the same. It's not an excuse to do what they've done to the Palestinians.

[extracheese]

Some of you are working overtime trying to paint Israel as demonic. Among you are
Syd who has no credibility - by tossing out ridiculous statements that would be comical
if this wasn't such a serious topic. And of course Mojo who more eloquently puts forth defense for
the Palestinians, albeit reiterating much of the same stuff we have been getting from the media
around the clock lately.
You cannot blame Mojo and others like him. We have been fed lies from major media players: The
problem is...these players get THEIR information from Palestinians only. See this site for
more information.


http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Holding_Fire_IDF_Withdraws_From_Gaza.asp

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Media_War_Crimes.asp

But don't be surprised the media bought these lies - they have a long history of falling
for Palestinian propaganda.

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/bigLies.asp

This last link is fascinating in its clarity. My "favorite" is how Jenin was reported.

As for Mojos arguments: no matter where this discussion goes, he returns to the old
myth that (well... Israel stole their land and are cruel barbarians etc...)

This refutes that as well:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=85547

http://www.neoconstant.com/429/the-myth-of-stolen-arab-land/

No one can argue that some Civilians have been killed. 10,000 soldiers marched into
towns where terrorist fighters don civilian clothes and hide behind children. It is true
some mistakes were made, and some soldiers fired when they shouldn't have. This is
war and no war is fought flawlessly without mistakes. But there is no policy to hurt civilians.
Israel has always gone above and beyond to avoid these casualties.
The people voted Hamas to power. Now Their leaders (Hamas) are firing rockets from their rooftops,
but they cannot control their own leaders? The innocent people you defend? Who just want peace - why do they
teach hatred and death to ALL Jews from their schools and mosques. This is well established teaching
in many arab lands.

If you read from sources such as AFP and BBC you will pick up propaganda from Pro Arab sources.

If your going to remain in this discussion - view the links i posted.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Numerous countries and social groups can claim the same. It's not an excuse to do what they've done to the Palestinians.

No, but as I've said the Israelis just might be just a bit more sensitive to such stated intentions. And again the plight of the Palestinians is not just the fault of Israel, nor just up to Israel to resolve.
:wallbash:

[IWOWedGregBrady]

Thanks for all the links, extracheese.

If I may add another one (http://www.betar.co.uk/articles/betar1068477052.php), for any Larry Miller fans.

I only know so much about this conflict, but I'm certain if Americans were on the receiving end of the same attacks as the Israelis, we'd be demanding the same retaliation if not worse.

[TheMojoPin]

No, but as I've said the Israelis just might be just a bit more sensitive to such stated intentions. And again the plight of the Palestinians is not just the fault of Israel, nor just up to Israel to resolve.
:wallbash:

I didn't say either.

[TheMojoPin]

Some of you are working overtime trying to paint Israel as demonic. Among you are
Syd who has no credibility - by tossing out ridiculous statements that would be comical
if this wasn't such a serious topic. And of course Mojo who more eloquently puts forth defense for
the Palestinians, albeit reiterating much of the same stuff we have been getting from the media
around the clock lately.
You cannot blame Mojo and others like him. We have been fed lies from major media players: The
problem is...these players get THEIR information from Palestinians only. See this site for
more information.


http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Holding_Fire_IDF_Withdraws_From_Gaza.asp

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Media_War_Crimes.asp

But don't be surprised the media bought these lies - they have a long history of falling
for Palestinian propaganda.

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/bigLies.asp

This last link is fascinating in its clarity. My "favorite" is how Jenin was reported.

As for Mojos arguments: no matter where this discussion goes, he returns to the old
myth that (well... Israel stole their land and are cruel barbarians etc...)

This refutes that as well:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=85547

http://www.neoconstant.com/429/the-myth-of-stolen-arab-land/

No one can argue that some Civilians have been killed. 10,000 soldiers marched into
towns where terrorist fighters don civilian clothes and hide behind children. It is true
some mistakes were made, and some soldiers fired when they shouldn't have. This is
war and no war is fought flawlessly without mistakes. But there is no policy to hurt civilians.
Israel has always gone above and beyond to avoid these casualties.
The people voted Hamas to power. Now Their leaders (Hamas) are firing rockets from their rooftops,
but they cannot control their own leaders? The innocent people you defend? Who just want peace - why do they
teach hatred and death to ALL Jews from their schools and mosques. This is well established teaching
in many arab lands.

If you read from sources such as AFP and BBC you will pick up propaganda from Pro Arab sources.

If your going to remain in this discussion - view the links i posted.

I've always thought the prejudiced cries about the "Jewish-influenced media" sounded hollow and ridiculous.

Claims of a "Palestinian-influenced mdia" sound the same.

HonestReporting is a mess when it comes to being accurate in their "debunking." (http://dishonestreporting.blogspot.com/)

Again, as previously pointed out, nobodey wants to look at the reasons as to WHY Hamas was elected into power. Beyond the situation the Palestinians have been backed into over the past 90 years, the US and Israel pushed for new election at a a point where there was no viable and organized option besides Hamas. That's obviously not justifying the terror tactics of Hamas, but those that expect the Palestinians to have elected anyone else into power given the timing of the elections is just ignoring the obvious...there was no other choice.

And let me make it clear yet again: I am in no way saying that the Palestinians are total victims in all this. My main points have been that Israel has the most power right now to make attempts at actual lasting change between the two populations. That doesn't mean there's nothing the Palestinians can or need to do to help break this cycle, but the Israelis by far have the upper hand and the most power to get things rolling. When you're the top dog, that's how it works...you can't expect the loser to want to or even be able to take the lead. That should be the ultimate goal...defusing this cycle in the long run. The current actions by both sides do nothing to achieve that.

[TheMojoPin]

I only know so much about this conflict, but I'm certain if Americans were on the receiving end of the same attacks as the Israelis, we'd be demanding the same retaliation if not worse.

Again, that's an intellectually faulty hypothetical that's not applicable as you present it.

That's also a link to an inaccurate fluff piece that adds zero to this debate.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I didn't say either.

Yeah, but you were...thinking it...for the most part...! :laugh: