Should Illegal Immigrants get Health Insurance?

[DarkHippie]

Here's why I think they should . . .

Most illegals (at least around here) have SSNs that they paid for on the black market. While they are illegal, it does mean that they pay income taxes. They also pay sales tax on everything they buy, and property tax on property.

I feel that as long as you pay your taxes, you should be entitled to all of the governments programs. That includes drivers licenses, food stamps, public school, and if the law passes, cheap health insurance.

Just pay your taxes, and we're cool

[IMSlacker]

I think they prefer the term "undocumented workers".

[~Katja~]

so basically you are advocating more illegal immigrants to come to this country as long as they pay taxes on fake ss# ?

I don't agree, I am an immigrant and I went through great lengths to be a legal immigrant.

[A.J.]

No.

[DarkHippie]

so basically you are advocating more illegal immigrants to come to this country as long as they pay taxes on fake ss# ?

I don't agree, I am an immigrant and I went through great lengths to be a legal immigrant.

The only difference is that you have a certificate. Otherwise, you work the same, pay taxes the same, and there should be no difference.

[underdog]

Fuck the illegals! They weren't lucky enough to be born within these arbitrarily drawn borders so they should die on the fucking street.

[JimBeam]

They shouldn't be given it because they shouldn't be here for it.

I doubt many people are against giving health insurance to illegals based on the fact that they are foreigners.

I think it's more of a case, at least for me, that they shouldn't be in the country w/o having gone through the proper channels that those that naturalize do.

If you are " illegal " you shouldn't be " legally " given anything.

They pay sales tax on the things they buy because they have no choice.

Don't make it seem like they are dontaing this money for the greater good.

They walk in a store and they pay what the store charges including all taxes just like you and I do.

And what income taxes are they paying ?

I'm sure an extremely high percentage are working off the books so I'm not certain their income is being taxed.

[JimBeam]

Fuck the illegals! They weren't lucky enough to be born within these arbitrarily drawn borders so they should die on the fucking street.

That's a ridiculous argument and only the most exterme person would believe that.

These " arbitrarly drawn borders " as you call them are fianced and supported very well by the legal inhabitants within them.

If the idea was just a place to live and call your own why wouldn't they stay where they were born ?

[~Katja~]

The only difference is that you have a certificate. Otherwise, you work the same, pay taxes the same, and there should be no difference.

no, the difference is that in this country it is much easier than in other countries to become a legal resident or citizen, I abide the laws, they should too. Offering these benefits officially to any illegal immigrant would just open the floodgates of increased illegal migration to the US.

[DarkHippie]

And what income taxes are they paying ?

I'm sure an extremely high percentage are working off the books so I'm not certain their income is being taxed.

that should be the test then. If you are willing to go out and get an SSN so you can pay taxes, I think you have earned the right to get benefits

In my opinion, what makes someone a citizen isnt their birth or naturalization, but their willingness to contribute in some form to society. As long as you do your share, you should be embraced as a brother.

Yes, many illegals work off the books, but just as many don't. They get work permits or as mentioned above, buy a SSN

[JimBeam]

I doubt the breakdown of on the books/off the books workers is 50/50.

[DarkHippie]

I doubt the breakdown of on the books/off the books workers is 50/50.

it depends on where you live. In rockland co, ny, where i live, most of them have to work on the books. only the day laborers work off the books.

[instrument]

working in hr i used to love getting garnishment paperwork for one of the mexican guys....calling them in...explaining it to them....and them swearing they don't have kids/back taxes/etc. then seeing the recognition in their eyes when they realize that its the social they're working under.

[DarkHippie]

working in hr i used to love getting garnishment paperwork for one of the mexican guys....calling them in...explaining it to them....and them swearing they don't have kids/back taxes/etc. then seeing the recognition in their eyes when they realize that its the social they're working under.

I hate that i laughed at that

[JimBeam]

it depends on where you live. In rockland co, ny, where i live, most of them have to work on the books. only the day laborers work off the books.

A distinction probably also needs to be made in the type of illegal.

Many people, and I'm certainily guilty of this, think about people of Latin decent when they hear " illegal ".

Obviously there are plenty of people from other backgrounds that are here illegally.

With that said it is the day laborer types that I see most of the time.

I live in CT and work in Westchester County and you see a lot of the day laborers.

I've also worked in a coporate atmosphere for the last 10 years and have never come across a person that I knew to be here " illegally ".

They usually take jobs where there's not a lot of paperwork to avoid being caught and/or forced to pay things.

This is why many are exploited with regards to their pay/hours.

[OGC]

Here's why I think they should . . .

Most illegals (at least around here) have SSNs that they paid for on the black market. While they are illegal, it does mean that they pay income taxes. They also pay sales tax on everything they buy, and property tax on property.

Who's SSN are they working under ? The number must match up some legal citizen.

Having an illegal SSN, has no correlation to whether they pay taxes. The very first thing they did when they came to America was break a law. What makes you think they would obey any other laws ?

I don't think the majority of illegals are buying houses and paying property taxes.


Here's why I think they should . . .

..... Just pay your taxes, and we're cool

Here's the way I think.....

Just become a citizen the legal way and we're cool.

[~Katja~]

Who's SSN are they working under ? The number must match up some legal citizen.


I don't think the majority of illegals are buying houses and paying property taxes.





HR now has forms they have to file to check on the legitimacy of a SS#, as they use their real or fake names and match them with random SS# of dead people, kids or just stolen identities.

And I agree, there is no way they are buying houses unless they pay cash, so property taxes and such are not being paid by them.

[earthbrown]

I think they prefer the term "undocumented workers".

I could care less what criminals want to be called.

I doubt the breakdown of on the books/off the books workers is 50/50.

Well the men usually work, but the women are at home with 4 kids and are on social services. Now i understand the children of illegals are citizens, but the illegals still benefit from the money.


K

[IMSlacker]

I could care less what criminals want to be called.

"legally challenged"

[~Katja~]

I could care less what criminals want to be called.

Well the men usually work, but the women are at home with 4 kids and are on social services. Now i understand the children of illegals are citizens, but the illegals still benefit from the money.


K

you are very ignorant and predictable in your comments. I have known many illegal immigrants and I know for a fact that most of them work hard, and in shifts. They all live together and save on rent and daycare expenses that way and send all their money home to their families.
I bet you also think that all women receiving child support for their kids live it up and party on their kid's expenses, right?

[west milly Tom]

No brainer.

[earthbrown]

you are very ignorant and predictable in your comments. I have known many illegal immigrants and I know for a fact that most of them work hard, and in shifts. They all live together and save on rent and daycare expenses that way and send all their money home to their families.
I bet you also think that all women receiving child support for their kids live it up and party on their kid's expenses, right?

the illegal men I know, work very hard doing landscaping, farm , and construction, and most of them have wives or girlfriends at home who care for the kids and collect welfare and food stamps.

Many of them also get large portions of their rent and utilities paid.

and I dont think they all abuse the money, a MAJORITY of the hispanics on welfare i see in my supermarket are buying sensible things, 25lb bags of rice, hole chickens, vegetables, etc. Much better than the blacks who like frozen pizzas, frozen breaded chicken, soda, chips, and other premade foods.



K

[~Katja~]

the illegal men I know, work very hard doing landscaping, farm , and construction, and most of them have wives or girlfriends at home who care for the kids and collect welfare and food stamps.

Many of them also get large portions of their rent and utilities paid.

and I dont think they all abuse the money, a MAJORITY of the hispanics on welfare i see in my supermarket are buying sensible things, 25lb bags of rice, hole chickens, vegetables, etc. Much better than the blacks who like frozen pizzas, frozen breaded chicken, soda, chips, and other premade foods.



K

don't you think that has something to do with the way they were raised and foods that are common within their communities?
You can't say that Americans (black or white) are taught about eating right and well even kid's channels advertise candies, junk and sugary cereals...

[earthbrown]

don't you think that has something to do with the way they were raised and foods that are common within their communities?
You can't say that Americans (black or white) are taught about eating right and well even kid's channels advertise candies, junk and sugary cereals...

well force it then, instead of having a card ith the power to buy anything that is food, give vouchers for specific items needed to prepare complete meals.



K

[Whitey]

They should get nothing and like it!

[9mileskid]

they should get more then the rest of us because they do the jobs americans won't do

[foodcourtdruide]

that should be the test then. If you are willing to go out and get an SSN so you can pay taxes, I think you have earned the right to get benefits

In my opinion, what makes someone a citizen isnt their birth or naturalization, but their willingness to contribute in some form to society. As long as you do your share, you should be embraced as a brother.

Yes, many illegals work off the books, but just as many don't. They get work permits or as mentioned above, buy a SSN

I agree with this 100%. Make the path to citizenship easier and remove the ominious thread of deportation. People who think that deporting all illegal aliens is the answer can't see the forest from the trees. Why would you remove a low-wage working class from your society? It's insane to me.

[JimBeam]

I agree with this 100%. Make the path to citizenship easier and remove the ominious thread of deportation. People who think that deporting all illegal aliens is the answer can't see the forest from the trees. Why would you remove a low-wage working class from your society? It's insane to me.

What if that class took more from the community than they put into it ?

The strain on education and medical services could be greater than the job they perform.

they should get more then the rest of us because they do the jobs americans won't do

And if they didn't do them 2 things would happen.

Eiether the need for the job would go away or if it was deemed essential people would learn to do it.

[foodcourtdruide]

What if that class took more from the community than they put into it ?

The strain on education and medical services could be greater than the job they perform.



This is the case when they are centralized in ONE community. Which is another argument for making them legal citizens, having 1,000+ undocumented individuals in an area could really put a strain on its schools/hospitals/etc.

On the same note, if illegal immigrants come here as adults they are NOT taking education services. You are basically getting a FREE low-wage work force, that is reluctant to use government services for fear of deportation.

[JimBeam]

Yes but they are offered the protection of a police and fire departments, amongst others, and do not contribute to supporting them.

[Crispy123]

While I agree the immigration process should be retooled as far as the countries with the most illegal immigration in to this country goes but no, they dont get more than the basic care that they get now. And like the hospital here in Fl did, they should be deported if they go into a hospital to get care once they are done.

[Moe Lester]

They absolutely SHOULD NOT get health insurance.

[ryno1974]

OK, this conversation is fucked.

1) You realize you guys dont have any real subsidized health care right?

2) You also realize that you are ALL immigrants right?

3) Earthbrown, you are either straight up fucked n the head, or you like to shock. I'm not sure.

4) The argument that illegals "take jobs" is also fucked. I will bet a thousand dollars that the guy down the street that is laid off from his GM plant job is NOT going to take the job being done by the illegal, no matter what. It's not going to happen. "born and bred" americans will not do the low paying shitty labour jobs. Therefore, there is no job loss, only services rendered to people too lazy to do their own landscaping.

I'm off to go to the doctor for free now, even though I am fine. Just because I can :)\

[Crispy123]

OK, this conversation is fucked.

1) You realize you guys dont have any real subsidized health care right?

2) You also realize that you are ALL immigrants right?

3) Earthbrown, you are either straight up fucked n the head, or you like to shock. I'm not sure.

4) The argument that illegals "take jobs" is also fucked. I will bet a thousand dollars that the guy down the street that is laid off from his GM plant job is NOT going to take the job being done by the illegal, no matter what. It's not going to happen. "born and bred" americans will not do the low paying shitty labour jobs. Therefore, there is no job loss, only services rendered to people too lazy to do their own landscaping.

I'm off to go to the doctor for free now, even though I am fine. Just because I can :)\

Well sorry we cant suckle at the teet of the Queen of England and none of our neighbors are superpowers that we can mooch off of their Natural Resources or Armed Forces.
And Im a quarter Cherokee stoopid!

[DarkHippie]

well force it then, instead of having a card ith the power to buy anything that is food, give vouchers for specific items needed to prepare complete meals.

K

That would be W.I.C. It is kinda like foodstamps, but specifically designed for families with babies and children. You can only buy food staples like milk,cheese, bread, peanut butter, juice, etc. on it.


Back to what I was saying before, what if an immigrant has a green card and pays taxes that way. The only thing he is lacking to be a full citizen is the test. He is legally in america, and contributing to society. Can he get ins?

[earthbrown]

Well sorry we cant suckle at the teet of the Queen of England and none of our neighbors are superpowers that we can mooch off of their Natural Resources or Armed Forces.
And Im a quarter Cherokee stoopid!

I agree, but I do take issue with your large font. You are not that important.


K

[HBox]

This is a tricky issue. I don't think we should be handing out Medicaid and Medicare to people who are not citizens. But on the other hand we are not a country who will deny care to people in serious need of it. We don't let people die in the streets. So we are paying a lot more money to pay for these serious and expensive uses of health care that could have been prevented had we provided some kind of coverage in the first place. In effect we are paying a lot of money to punish illegal immigrants with having to resort to ER care when something becomes very serious. Which is not to say that we should provide them with health coverage. It's just a difficult issue that is better solved by immigration reform.

[Kevin]

That would be W.I.C. It is kinda like foodstamps, but specifically designed for families with babies and children. You can only buy food staples like milk,cheese, bread, peanut butter, juice, etc. on it.


Back to what I was saying before, what if an immigrant has a green card and pays taxes that way. The only thing he is lacking to be a full citizen is the test. He is legally in america, and contributing to society. Can he get ins?

People act like no one in their family were once and immigrant..

Unless you are an American Indian, THAT IS NOT THE CASE!

Then again, If earthborwn and Jezo's ancestors weren't allowed to come here and build a life, this country would be much better..

So now I am conflicted...

[ryno1974]

Well sorry we cant suckle at the teet of the Queen of England and none of our neighbors are superpowers that we can mooch off of their Natural Resources or Armed Forces.
And Im a quarter Cherokee stoopid!

Ummmm, yeah. Take a little closer look at the whole natural resources thing there pal. You guys ave fucked up so much of yours you hardly have any water left - thats a fact. The natural resources in North America are NOT in the us. They are in Canada. Armed forces? Keep em - you need them to keep on "saving" countries that dont want you there.

And a quarter Cherokee? I have a strong suspicion that the other three quarters is IMMIGRANT!

And if you are so aghast at our system, tell your old people to FUCK OFF and stop coming up here by the bus load to buy cheap heart meds.

God save the queen, lets all get free meds!

[SatCam]

People act like no one in their family were once and immigrant..

Unless you are an American Indian, THAT IS NOT THE CASE!

oh that reminds me.......we better not give those fucking indians any health care either with their duty free cigarettes and legalized gambling bullshit


how bout this..... only healthcare for those who immigrated here between 1492 and 1950

[Crispy123]

Ummmm, yeah. Take a little closer look at the whole natural resources thing there pal. You guys ave fucked up so much of yours you hardly have any water left - thats a fact. The natural resources in North America are NOT in the us. They are in Canada. Armed forces? Keep em - you need them to keep on "saving" countries that dont want you there.

And a quarter Cherokee? I have a strong suspicion that the other three quarters is IMMIGRANT!

And if you are so aghast at our system, tell your old people to FUCK OFF and stop coming up here by the bus load to buy cheap heart meds.

God save the queen, lets all get free meds!

FYI Snow is not a natural resource to go around bragging about. And no country can properly call itself socialist without a huge standing army.

And those people going to Canada for meds are, I suspect, from Minnesota and upstate NY I say you can keep em!

[~Katja~]

That would be W.I.C. It is kinda like foodstamps, but specifically designed for families with babies and children. You can only buy food staples like milk,cheese, bread, peanut butter, juice, etc. on it.


Back to what I was saying before, what if an immigrant has a green card and pays taxes that way. The only thing he is lacking to be a full citizen is the test. He is legally in america, and contributing to society. Can he get ins?
of course he can it's called being a permanent resident. They are legal citizen of this country.

I also have to say that changing immigration laws and letting more people in does not mean that it will be a civilized process on the other end. Many of them don't even get permission to leave their country.

[~Katja~]

Ummmm, yeah. Take a little closer look at the whole natural resources thing there pal. You guys ave fucked up so much of yours you hardly have any water left - thats a fact. The natural resources in North America are NOT in the us. They are in Canada. Armed forces? Keep em - you need them to keep on "saving" countries that dont want you there.

And a quarter Cherokee? I have a strong suspicion that the other three quarters is IMMIGRANT!

And if you are so aghast at our system, tell your old people to FUCK OFF and stop coming up here by the bus load to buy cheap heart meds.

God save the queen, lets all get free meds!

you are missing an important point, this discussion is about illegal immigrants and regardless of that, most people are second and third generation citizen and not immigrants, as soon as you are born here you are a citizen.

[earthbrown]

you are missing an important point, this discussion is about illegal immigrants and regardless of that, most people are second and third generation citizen and not immigrants, as soon as you are born here you are a citizen.

yes, birthright citizenship is also a problem, a woman can cross the border, drop a kid, and before she leaves the hospital can secure BENIFITS, in the name of the child that is a citizen. The mother is usually able to secure a stay in the country hen she drops the kid out too, cause we cant simply deport an american child to mexico. She is entitled to social services, which may include but not limited to; HOUSING, WIC, FOODSTAMPS, and WELFARE.

IF you are able bodied and on welfare, you should be FORCED to work.


K

[epo]

We shouldn't be judged by the manner in which we treat our "elite" citizens, but rather the manner in which we treat our "lowest" citizens.

[Kevin]

We shouldn't be judged by the manner in which we treat our "elite" citizens, but rather the manner in which we treat our "lowest" citizens.

That quote was said by Dexter Mnaley..

Epo forgot to add that..

[DarkHippie]

IF you are able bodied and on welfare, you should be FORCED to work.



Forced is a strong word, but I agree that they should be working. It gets complicated though, because the gov cant force employers to take on these workers, and if they give them government jobs, its a whole new level of awful.

[yojimbo7248]

I got in the most annoying argument with someone today about this issue. She told me that Wilson was right and Obama is lying about providing government health care to illegal immigrants. She kept saying I need to read a CRS report on which she bases her argument that Dems want to give illegal immigrants health care. She went on and on about what a reputable research group this is and it's non-partisan, true, objective, etc. I went and read her report. It only said the government needs to provide care to DETAINED illegal immigrants just like we do prisoners. I went back to her and asked if she is seriously proposing that we let detained illegals die while they are under custody. She said, well, no, but we do need to think about how illegal immigration is changing our country....
:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash: :wallbash:

[TheMojoPin]

It's just a difficult issue that is better solved by immigration reform.

Agreed.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

If health insurance were free, then yes, I'd love to see them get it. But it's not, so no.

[Ritalin]

yes, birthright citizenship is also a problem, a woman can cross the border, drop a kid, and before she leaves the hospital can secure BENIFITS, in the name of the child that is a citizen. The mother is usually able to secure a stay in the country hen she drops the kid out too, cause we cant simply deport an american child to mexico. She is entitled to social services, which may include but not limited to; HOUSING, WIC, FOODSTAMPS, and WELFARE.

IF you are able bodied and on welfare, you should be FORCED to work.


K

It's benefits. Benefits. It's the key word of your paragraph - hell, you capitalized it - yet you spelled it wrong.

You got a BENEFIT. People paid good money in taxes so you could go to school. Clearly it's been wasted. It isn't just that your arguements are weak and predictable, they're also written with the proficiency of a fifth grader.

The thing is that I almost agree with you about immigration. I live in Queens surrounded by immigrants, and when I see women with 3 kids paying for food with a WIC card I get angry sometimes, because my wife and I actually held off on having children until we could afford them. But then I realize that I've had unmatched advantages simply because I'm American and male, and that I wouldn't want to trade places with that woman. I'm not threatened by that woman.

In your case, I can understand why you might be.

It's benefit, with an "e".

[earthbrown]

It's benefits. Benefits. It's the key word of your paragraph - hell, you capitalized it - yet you spelled it wrong.

You got a BENEFIT. People paid good money in taxes so you could go to school. Clearly it's been wasted. It isn't just that your arguements are weak and predictable, they're also written with the proficiency of a fifth grader.

The thing is that I almost agree with you about immigration. I live in Queens surrounded by immigrants, and when I see women with 3 kids paying for food with a WIC card I get angry sometimes, because my wife and I actually held off on having children until we could afford them. But then I realize that I've had unmatched advantages simply because I'm American and male, and that I wouldn't want to trade places with that woman. I'm not threatened by that woman.

In your case, I can understand why you might be.

It's benefit, with an "e".

Sorry on the spelling, driving done the road and typing, plus my spelling is awful, I have had spell check for all my life.


I have less of a problem with WIC, as it has specific items you must purchase.

The most heinous food stamp thing I have seen was a white person, a young girl, maybe 18 with 2 kids. She bought about $70 in TV dinners, soda, and junk food at a convenience store. The convenience store was less than 2 blocks from a supermarket. She got pissed when the clerk said she owed 1.25 for the bottle deposit which is not covered by food stamps.

She then used the debit portion of the ebt card to pay for 3 packs of smokes and the remaining deposit.


And my entire schooling was paid for by my parents, I went to private schools k-12. I know work in a very well paying blue collar job, where I make in excess of 80k per year, I work my ass off to provide everything possible for my family, and am PISSED that about 30k per year goes to my federal, state, and local taxes. On top of those, almost everything else I buy costs me an extra 8% in sales tax.

I pay $1150 a month in health insurance for my family, I am stuck with shitty ins company as there are only 3 different ones available in my area.

Want to make the health insurance cheap, allow the 1000+ companies that provide it to compete for my business, and just like car insurance it would become very affordable. What do you think would happen to car insurance costs if only 3 companies offered insurance in your area? IT WOULD GO THROUGH THE ROOF. Competition is good for the consumer always.

And by the way, life is not fair, you saying you understand their plight is a sort of superiority complex(its also white guilt). In life not everyone gets a trophy, but some people use their brain power to try to abuse the system, and coming here from another country and leaching off the system is abuse.

If someone comes up to you, points a gun at you and steals your money, do you press charges? Or give them a pass, cause they obviously are less advantaged than you? Taking what you earned to give to someone else who is less fortunate is theft, everyone should have to work for what they have. Its not my problem that those people had shitty life circumstances that did not give them a nice house and picket fence.

If you have 3 nice cars, should the government come take one cause someone poor needs it??? NO, obviously NO.


K



ps "arguements" is spelled arguments, this is not spelling class though, I wont call you a moron.

[KC2OSO]

Fuck the illegals! They weren't lucky enough to be born within these arbitrarily drawn borders so they should die on the fucking street.
Right. Nobody ever fought for these borders. C'mon in everybody. Help yourself! It's a free country.

[WampusCrandle]

never. fuck illegal immigrants in their imported assholes.

[KC2OSO]

Sure. Please just explain why.

[boosterp]

that should be the test then. If you are willing to go out and get an SSN so you can pay taxes, I think you have earned the right to get benefits

In my opinion, what makes someone a citizen isnt their birth or naturalization, but their willingness to contribute in some form to society. As long as you do your share, you should be embraced as a brother.

Yes, many illegals work off the books, but just as many don't. They get work permits or as mentioned above, buy a SSN

So you support ID theft? An illegal obtaining fake documentation is the second leading cause of ID theft costing us the taxpayers a lot of money.

[Kublakhan61]

And my entire schooling was paid for by my parents, I went to private schools k-12. I know work in a very well paying blue collar job, where I make in excess of 80k per year, I work my ass off to provide everything possible for my family, and am PISSED that about 30k per year goes to my federal, state, and local taxes. On top of those, almost everything else I buy costs me an extra 8% in sales tax.

You've had an easy life from the sound of it. I can understand you not wanting new rules which take away everything you've been given.

Want to make the health insurance cheap, allow the 1000+ companies that provide it to compete for my business, and just like car insurance it would become very affordable. What do you think would happen to car insurance costs if only 3 companies offered insurance in your area? IT WOULD GO THROUGH THE ROOF. Competition is good for the consumer always.

It is going through the roof anyway. I have cited a refereed article explaining how Health Care is going to increase by 94% by 2020 if we don't begin to regulate the market.

Competition is not good when what we are talking about is access to health care. Only the wealthy are entitled to a good doctor? You can choose to drive a car, and therefore choose to get car insurance. You can choose to rent or own a home, and therefore choose to get renters or home owners insurance. You do not get to choose whether or not you get good genes, or get sick, or get into a car wreck - but as you say 'shitty life circumstances' fuck 'em, right?


Its not my problem that those people had shitty life circumstances that did not give them a nice house and picket fence.


No, it not your problem. But you were lucky enough to be born to well-to-do parents, or at the very least, parents who had the means to give you a whole leg up on the rest of us. Sadly, they didn't teach you about compassion.
It's more then not having a white picket fence, nobody is asking for that. Some of us would just be happy with the ability to see a dr. when we are sick.

[earthbrown]

You've had an easy life from the sound of it. I can understand you not wanting new rules which take away everything you've been given.

I have not had an easy life, with stuff given to me, I have fully supported myself since I was 18. I unlike my brothers, REFUSE, to have my parents hold my hand through life. I have made little steps over the last 10 years, going from 2 jobs where I make 19k a year, to now where I have a job where I make 80+ per year.



It is going through the roof anyway. I have cited a refereed article explaining how Health Care is going to increase by 94% by 2020 if we don't begin to regulate the market.

Competition is not good when what we are talking about is access to health care. Only the wealthy are entitled to a good doctor? You can choose to drive a car, and therefore choose to get car insurance. You can choose to rent or own a home, and therefore choose to get renters or home owners insurance. You do not get to choose whether or not you get good genes, or get sick, or get into a car wreck - but as you say 'shitty life circumstances' fuck 'em, right?

Competition is good, If I can go online and get insurance from one of 1600 insurers in this country, what do you think will happen? The insurance companies will be now competing for your business, unlike now where they get a foothold in an area and you are forced to use them. There are only 3 or 4 companies I can get to insure me in the Buffalo area. I wanted to switch to an HSA, but the motherfuckers dont offer very much in NY because insurance is so highly regulated in NY.

Life is a crap shoot, no one is guaranteed to have good genes or be accident free, and I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY for your shitty situations.

You cannot choose to have or not have a car in this country, in most places of the country, you need to have a car if you want employment, and most states require insurance. Therefore if you have a car you are REQUIRED to insure it, and since the competition has gotten better, the rates and service have improved.





No, it not your problem. But you were lucky enough to be born to well-to-do parents, or at the very least, parents who had the means to give you a whole leg up on the rest of us. Sadly, they didn't teach you about compassion.
It's more then not having a white picket fence, nobody is asking for that. Some of us would just be happy with the ability to see a dr. when we are sick.

Parents were not well-to-do, stop making assumptions. The private schools I went to were around $1000 a year when I was in grade school, and $2000 a year for highschool.

My parents are the hardest working people I know, they both come from lower middle class parents, no college in their families history. Both of my parents worked their way through college and were able to secure good jobs for themselves.

If you want to see a doctor, pay for it, or get insurance through your employer. An office visit is only $100 on a cash basis, usually less, I pay my doctor out of pocket, because he does not take my insurance, and I pay $65 for an office visit. You say that is not affordable? well stop wasting your money on internet/cable and going out to eat, and you will have the money to see the doctor 5 times a year. Most people just choose to spend their money on LUXURIES instead of necessities, which is fine, but dont then expect to have someone else pay for it.

K

[angrymissy]

If you want to see a doctor, pay for it, or get insurance through your employer. An office visit is only $100 on a cash basis, usually less, I pay my doctor out of pocket, because he does not take my insurance, and I pay $65 for an office visit. You say that is not affordable? well stop wasting your money on internet/cable and going out to eat, and you will have the money to see the doctor 5 times a year. Most people just choose to spend their money on LUXURIES instead of necessities, which is fine, but dont then expect to have someone else pay for it.

K

An office visit is $65 if nothing is wrong.

I recently, as a healthy 30 year old, had to have 2 EKGs, a stress test, blood work and 2 heart sonos within a weeks time to rule out some pretty scary shit. If I didn't have insurance, cost would be in the thousands. And even with insurance, I'm going to be on the hook for 20% of all of the diagnostic and lab work, probably about $1,000 out of pocket when all is said and done.

[earthbrown]

An office visit is $65 if nothing is wrong.

I recently, as a healthy 30 year old, had to have 2 EKGs, a stress test, blood work and 2 heart sonos within a weeks time to rule out some pretty scary shit. If I didn't have insurance, cost would be in the thousands. And even with insurance, I'm going to be on the hook for 20% of all of the diagnostic and lab work, probably about $1,000 out of pocket when all is said and done.

yes, that is unfortunate, BUT why should the money come out of my pocket? Why dont you just stick a gun in a tellers face and pay your bill?

Is it stealing if you steal $.10 from 10,000 people? how about $.01 from 100,000 people? How about $1000 from a bank?

Where does it stop? Life is not fair, some have health conditions, and die early because they were not able to afford healthcare? Sucks, but its life.


K

[TheMojoPin]

Why do you arbitrarily expect the government to foot the bill in some areas (police protection, military) but not others (education, emergency services, health care)? Why doesn't your "life is not fair, get over it" mentality apply across the board?

You pay taxes. You don't get to pick and choose what you want those taxes to go towards.

[angrymissy]

yes, that is unfortunate, BUT why should the money come out of my pocket? Why dont you just stick a gun in a tellers face and pay your bill?

Is it stealing if you steal $.10 from 10,000 people? how about $.01 from 100,000 people? How about $1000 from a bank?

Where does it stop? Life is not fair, some have health conditions, and die early because they were not able to afford healthcare? Sucks, but its life.


K

Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your fires?
Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your military?
Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your roads?
Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your police?

etc

etc

[foodcourtdruide]

Why do you arbitrarily expect the government to foot the bill in some areas (police protection, military) but not others (education, emergency services, health care)? Why doesn't your "life is not fair, get over it" mentality apply across the board?

You pay taxes. You don't get to pick and choose what you want those taxes to go towards.

Because he's a libertarian?

[El Mudo]

People act like no one in their family were once and immigrant..

Unless you are an American Indian, THAT IS NOT THE CASE!

Then again, If earthborwn and Jezo's ancestors weren't allowed to come here and build a life, this country would be much better..

So now I am conflicted...


Weren't they immigrants from Asia?

[yojimbo7248]

I remember the good old days when we didn't need fire departments. The town had a big bell in the square. If there was a fire, someone would ring it. We would all grab our pails of water and rush over put the fire out. Same went for helping out someone if he was down on his luck. We would all pitch in and give him a loan just like It's a Wonderful Life.

A visit from Dr. Grady only cost nickels so we didn't need to worry about things like insurance. If there was something serious, the church would pay for the good doctor's services. Since everyone tithed 10% of our income, the church had plenty of money to take care of us.

This country has gone to shit. I wish it was still like it was when we just helped each other out and didn't need big government to get involved.

[KatPw]

I remember the good old days when we didn't need fire departments. The town had a big bell in the square. If there was a fire, someone would ring it. We would all grab our pails of water and rush over put the fire out. Same went for helping out someone if he was down on his luck. We would all pitch in and give him a loan just like It's a Wonderful Life.

This country has gone to shit. I wish it was still like it was when we just helped each other out and didn't need big government to get involved.
And remember when we all got around in horse and carriage? Good times. You got a pet and transportation rolled into one. And horses didn't mow down pedestrians like cars do. Fuck roads and driving. At least you didn't have to carry insurance to ride a horse to work.

[TheMojoPin]

And horses didn't mow down pedestrians like cars do.

But you would have to feed them a child every so often.

[yojimbo7248]

And remember when we all got around in horse and carriage? Good times. You got a pet and transportation rolled into one. And horses didn't mow down pedestrians like cars do. Fuck roads and driving. At least you didn't have to carry insurance to ride a horse to work.

amen, sister.

[lleeder]

And remember when we all got around in horse and carriage? Good times. You got a pet and transportation rolled into one. And horses didn't mow down pedestrians like cars do. Fuck roads and driving. At least you didn't have to carry insurance to ride a horse to work.

Fucking elitist. My people had to walk.

[KatPw]

But you would have to feed them a child every so often.

That's okay. We can make more.

[KatPw]

Fucking elitist. My people had to walk.

Walk to work? What are you, some kind of commie pinko?

[lleeder]

Walk to work? What are you, some kind of commie pinko?
I work in my living room so driving there really isn't practical.

[KatPw]

I work in my living room so driving there really isn't practical.

True. But you can still get one of those miniature ponies to transport you to the kitchen or bathroom.

[ozzie]

Most (not all) Emergency rooms and clinics rarely turn away patients who are in dire need of immediate treatment.

The costs associated with these treatments are passed along in higher costs to those with insurance, or those who can pay their bill.

Those of us with healthcare insurance are already paying (in the form of higher premiums) for those without.

It could be argued (although speculative) that with a little preventative care, the overall cost of taking care of those people could be lessened.

Point is, it's already happening.

[TheMojoPin]

I work in my living room so driving there really isn't practical.

Quitter. Your attitude is everything that's wrong with America today.

[DarkHippie]

yes, that is unfortunate, BUT why should the money come out of my pocket? .
K

It is the whole reason that humans developed societies. We group together not because we like it, but for mutual survival. That is how it has been for thousands of years, and thats how it will stay.

As human beings living in a society, we have a responsibility to protect all members of our society, even if we must sacrifice to do so. that is humanity. Without this basic philosophy, we cease to be a society, and become our own enemies. It is societal cohesiveness that keeps us from collapsing like every great empire before us.

[Jujubees2]

With or without insurance, undocumented people will still sick sick/hurt. When they do, they will still go to the hospital where they can not be denied care.

So either way someone still has to pay for their health care.

[ozzie]

IA visit from Dr. Grady only cost nickels so we didn't need to worry about things like insurance. If there was something serious, the church would pay for the good doctor's services. Since everyone tithed 10% of our income, the church had plenty of money to take care of us.

This country has gone to shit. I wish it was still like it was when we just helped each other out and didn't need big government to get involved.

Everyone paying 10% to a central organization, and having that organization distribute the money to those they decide need it most?

And if there was an emergency, or increase in members who could not tithe as much or at all, would/could that organization plea to the congregation for more money? And possibly ask that tithing increase across the board?

And did they ever ask for donations to fund Father Pat's trip to a third world country to try to bring God, clean water and medicine to the people of another country?

Yeah, that system sounds so much better and different.

[yojimbo7248]

Everyone paying 10% to a central organization, and having that organization distribute the money to those they decide need it most?

And if there was an emergency, or increase in members who could not tithe as much or at all, would/could that organization plea to the congregation for more money? And possibly ask that tithing increase across the board?

And did they ever ask for donations to fund Father Pat's trip to a third world country to try to bring God, clean water and medicine to the people of another country?

Yeah, that system sounds so much better and different.

only problem is the church is based on worshipping a make-believe deity that was created to justify tribal territorial conquest centuries ago.

[yojimbo7248]

Everyone paying 10% to a central organization, and having that organization distribute the money to those they decide need it most?

And if there was an emergency, or increase in members who could not tithe as much or at all, would/could that organization plea to the congregation for more money? And possibly ask that tithing increase across the board?

And did they ever ask for donations to fund Father Pat's trip to a third world country to try to bring God, clean water and medicine to the people of another country?

Yeah, that system sounds so much better and different.

I see the similarities. good point.

[foodcourtdruide]

Care for the poor and needy being the responsibility of churches scares me more than it being the responsibility of rich people. Why can't it just be the responsibility of society?

[yojimbo7248]

Care for the poor and needy being the responsibility of churches scares me more than it being the responsibility of rich people. Why can't it just be the responsibility of society?

I like how you think, my friend

[underdog]

yes, that is unfortunate, BUT why should the money come out of my pocket?

Because you're a human being that is part of a civilized society.

I work in my living room so driving there really isn't practical.

Making prank calls isn't work.

[TjM]

Making prank calls isn't work.

O dear god he actually works on those?

[JimBeam]

You also realize that you are ALL immigrants right?

As I believe somebody already pointed out most of us are legal immigrants.

Don't exclude yourself there either. Unless you're living in Mesopotamia your ancestry migrated from somewhere.

As far as Americans thinking jobs are beneath them that may be true to a point but when push comes to shove we do what we have to do.

There were plenty of jobs performed during the Depression that people surely hadn't planned on doing.

If McDonalds and Burger King have to cut their workforce because a US citizen won't work for $6 an hour then so be it.

The higher cost of labor would be pushed on to the customer anyway and if we think our Big mac's and Whalers are that important we'll continue to pay that.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Illegal aliens should not receive health insurance, they broke the law and its basically rewarding them. Many have committed more crimes, such as forgery, ID Theft, many are renting illegally, working illegally and evading taxes.

In many ways illegal aliens have it better than many Americans, they have a huge support base thru the churches and community groups

as another poster said yes they pay sales taxes, but I am taxed on a federal, state and local level thru property taxes.

How are we all immigrants? Most of us were born in the US, If youre born here, youre not an immigrant.

In a related topic to illegal aliens,I want them deported, however No one ever talks about punishing the employers, and the landlords. They are also at fault.

The Dems want them legalized so that they can become a voting base, The country club Republicans want them here so they can exploit their cheap labor

[DarkHippie]

The Dems want them legalized so that they can become a voting base, The country club Republicans want them here so they can exploit their cheap labor

WINNAR!

although a lot of the mexicans that are coming in are hard core catholics and vote republican on a lot of things.

[yojimbo7248]

WINNAR!

although a lot of the mexicans that are coming in are hard core catholics and vote republican on a lot of things.

You make a good point. Republicans are fucking up so badly by alienating Hispanics. They could have easily gone Republican since vast majority are social conservatives. If I was a Republican strategist, I would carpet bomb Latino communities with propaganda saying that Republicans hate abortion, hate gays just like good Catholics should.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

WINNAR!

although a lot of the mexicans that are coming in are hard core catholics and vote republican on a lot of things.

notice that the Churches on Sundays are filled with People mostly from Central and South America. Also there are a lot of them who are becoming Pentecostal as well

[A.J.]

You make a good point. Republicans are fucking up so badly by alienating Hispanics. They could have easily gone Republican since vast majority are social conservatives. If I was a Republican strategist, I would carpet bomb Latino communities with propaganda saying that Republicans hate abortion, hate gays just like good Catholics should.

They've been trying to do that (it was one of the reasons Bush won the Texas Governors races). But the vehement anti-immigration stance is sending them over to the Dems.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Cesar Chavez is considered an Icon in California, However he was against people coming here illegally.

Back to the healthcare debate, If this bill gets passed, Illegals will get covered. I know the wording in HR 3200, However the courts will step in and rule that they must be covered.

In 1982 the Supreme court ruled that all children regardless of status were entitled to public education

[yojimbo7248]

Cesar Chavez is considered an Icon in California, However he was against people coming here illegally.

Back to the healthcare debate, If this bill gets passed, Illegals will get covered. I know the wording in HR 3200, However the courts will step in and rule that they must be covered.

In 1982 the Supreme court ruled that all children regardless of status were entitled to public education

How do you know courts will step in and rule they must be covered? Are there legal precedents you can point to?

[earthbrown]

Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your fires?
Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your military?
Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your roads?
Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your police?

etc

etc

Fire Departments are a mutual need, without them cities would burn.

Military is a mutual need, without it our country would not stand as a sovereign nation.

Roads are a mutual need, without them no commerce could be done.

Police are a mutual need, because people fail to live in a civilized manner, without police our society would be lawless, with vigilante style justice.


Healthcare is had by people who are productive in society, and want to have it, I pay allot got my healthcare, I dont like it, but its a fact of life. My healthcare costs are already inflated by the fact that many dont pay their bills, so now in a hospital it costs $4 for an asprin, why? Cause for everyone paying $4 there are 10 who never pay.

It does not effect me if you have a heart condition at 30 and die, it does not really effect society in that big of a way, it thins the herd, and that is good. If you give up your cable, flatscreen tv, $500 a month car payment, etc you could better afford healthcare. If you better yourself and get a job offering healthcare you will be better off too. I love when people bitch that healthcare is too expensive, yet they carelessly spend money on things that are not a necessity, eating out, seeing movies, internet access, drinking at the bar, XM radio, $7 packs of cigarettes, etc. Cut the waste and treat things as luxuries instead of necessities. YOu can feed a family of 4 for less than $100 a week, if you try, but people choose to instead waste money on pizza, mcDonalds, and other things that ere 20 years ago treated as luxuries.

Taking money from the middle class will further erode it to the point it does not exist, and I dont trust the government to run healthcare, it is not feasible.

I give enough, 30% of my income in fact, which is more than allot of you slackers make in a year.



K

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How do you know courts will step in and rule they must be covered? Are there legal precedents you can point to?

The ACLU is one entity that will lobby for the illegals, La Raza will also play a role

Referencing public education, the case was Plyler vs. Doe

[angrymissy]

Fire Departments are a mutual need, without them cities would burn.

Military is a mutual need, without it our country would not stand as a sovereign nation.

Roads are a mutual need, without them no commerce could be done.

Police are a mutual need, because people fail to live in a civilized manner, without police our society would be lawless, with vigilante style justice.


Healthcare is had by people who are productive in society, and want to have it, I pay allot got my healthcare, I dont like it, but its a fact of life. My healthcare costs are already inflated by the fact that many dont pay their bills, so now in a hospital it costs $4 for an asprin, why? Cause for everyone paying $4 there are 10 who never pay.

It does not effect me if you have a heart condition at 30 and die, it does not really effect society in that big of a way, it thins the herd, and that is good. If you give up your cable, flatscreen tv, $500 a month car payment, etc you could better afford healthcare. If you better yourself and get a job offering healthcare you will be better off too. I love when people bitch that healthcare is too expensive, yet they carelessly spend money on things that are not a necessity, eating out, seeing movies, internet access, drinking at the bar, XM radio, $7 packs of cigarettes, etc. Cut the waste and treat things as luxuries instead of necessities. YOu can feed a family of 4 for less than $100 a week, if you try, but people choose to instead waste money on pizza, mcDonalds, and other things that ere 20 years ago treated as luxuries.

Taking money from the middle class will further erode it to the point it does not exist, and I dont trust the government to run healthcare, it is not feasible.

I give enough, 30% of my income in fact, which is more than allot of you slackers make in a year.



K

I can afford my healthcare, I have compassion for those who can't.

Slackers? 30% of your income? Big whoop. I make $10k less than you being a secretary. You should see the fucking check we wrote to the IRS this year.

It's funny how you assume that someone who supports health care for all must be lazy, broke, and not pay taxes.

It's "a lot", btw.

[JimBeam]

Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your fires?
Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your military?
Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your roads?
Why should the money come out of my pocket to pay for your police?

etc

etc

I missed this part.

So who's going to come to your aid when " your " house is broken into ?

Who's gonna come to " your " aid when your house is on fire ?

How are you getting back and forth from anywhere ? So how are my roads not your roads ?

[TheMojoPin]

Fire Departments are a mutual need, without them cities would burn.

Military is a mutual need, without it our country would not stand as a sovereign nation.

Roads are a mutual need, without them no commerce could be done.

Police are a mutual need, because people fail to live in a civilized manner, without police our society would be lawless, with vigilante style justice.


Healthcare is had by people who are productive in society, and want to have it, I pay allot got my healthcare, I dont like it, but its a fact of life. My healthcare costs are already inflated by the fact that many dont pay their bills, so now in a hospital it costs $4 for an asprin, why? Cause for everyone paying $4 there are 10 who never pay.

It does not effect me if you have a heart condition at 30 and die, it does not really effect society in that big of a way, it thins the herd, and that is good. If you give up your cable, flatscreen tv, $500 a month car payment, etc you could better afford healthcare. If you better yourself and get a job offering healthcare you will be better off too. I love when people bitch that healthcare is too expensive, yet they carelessly spend money on things that are not a necessity, eating out, seeing movies, internet access, drinking at the bar, XM radio, $7 packs of cigarettes, etc. Cut the waste and treat things as luxuries instead of necessities. YOu can feed a family of 4 for less than $100 a week, if you try, but people choose to instead waste money on pizza, mcDonalds, and other things that ere 20 years ago treated as luxuries.

Taking money from the middle class will further erode it to the point it does not exist, and I dont trust the government to run healthcare, it is not feasible.

I give enough, 30% of my income in fact, which is more than allot of you slackers make in a year.



K

To try and claim that health care is not some kind of "mutual need" is the epitome of willful ignorance.

Your "thin the herd" garbage can be applied to all of your justified expenditures.

At least be consistent with your social Darwinism horseshit.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

People like Soros, Oprah, Gates and Buffett should start a not for profit organization for people who can not afford healthcare, They have given billions to people overseas, but they should look into taking care of the people here. Like the saying goes, Charity begins at home. They can also raise capital to get this going

[TheMojoPin]

People like Soros, Oprah, Gates and Buffett should start a not for profit organization for people who can not afford healthcare, They have given billions to people overseas, but they should look into taking care of the people here. Like the saying goes, Charity begins at home. They can also raise capital to get this going

Just admit that you have absolutely zero clue as to how much all those people contribute to charitable organizations and causes in the United States.

[angrymissy]

I missed this part.

So who's going to come to your aid when " your " house is broken into ?

Who's gonna come to " your " aid when your house is on fire ?

How are you getting back and forth from anywhere ? So how are my roads not your roads ?

The police
The fire department
The roads

Taxes pay for all that, and people don't have a problem with it, but taxes to pay for health care are a big problem?

[angrymissy]

Oh, and I doubt that if you fall on hard times and can't pay for insurance or health care for your children, you'll just let them die and call it "thinning the herd".

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Just admit that you have absolutely zero clue as to how much all those people contribute to charitable organizations and causes in the United States.

Sure they give to charity here, but this if ever run by them would be better than the government can ever run

Theres nothing wrong with charity so don't think im some selfish person

[Furtherman]

Oh, and I doubt that if you fall on hard times and can't pay for insurance or health care for your children, you'll just let them die and call it "thinning the herd".

But they're EARNING the right for insurance.

They're getting up every day and working for the RIGHT of health care.

And hard times cannot fall on people like that! They are right and nothing can stop them!

The rest of us are slackers!

Can't you see!??!!??!!?

[silera]

Sure they give to charity here, but this if ever run by them would be better than the government can ever run

Theres nothing wrong with charity so don't think im some selfish person

Charities that are able to allot 50% of donations to the intended cause are considered performing well.

[angrymissy]

Charities that are able to allot 50% of donations to the intended cause are considered performing well.

See EarthBrown PROPER USE OF ALLOT.

What timing!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Charities that are able to allot 50% of donations to the intended cause are considered performing well.

Yes, there is fraud and waste in some private charities, but the government has that market cornered

[earthbrown]

The police
The fire department
The roads

Taxes pay for all that, and people don't have a problem with it, but taxes to pay for health care are a big problem?

yes, because the government will fuck it up.

I can afford my healthcare, I have compassion for those who can't.

Slackers? 30% of your income? Big whoop. I make $10k less than you being a secretary. You should see the fucking check we wrote to the IRS this year.

It's funny how you assume that someone who supports health care for all must be lazy, broke, and not pay taxes.

It's "a lot", btw.

its because people want something for nothing, they want something that costs $1000, for $50, and they want people who have more to subsidize the other $950.

Well i want a goddamn Porsche, and I want to pay $5000 for it and have Bill Gates subsidize the other $85000.

Oh, and I doubt that if you fall on hard times and can't pay for insurance or health care for your children, you'll just let them die and call it "thinning the herd".

I have good genetics, I come from pure white blood, didn't you know, whites do not get sick, and when they do little white fairies come and cure them. Also being white I can simply walk into any business and get a $80k a year job with full benefits.

I will do anything possible to provide for my kids, minus groveling to the government for assistance, I will make my own way through life. I dont depend on others to pay my way.


K

[TheMojoPin]

Sure they give to charity here, but this if ever run by them would be better than the government can ever run

This is mind-boggling.

And bottling.

[TheMojoPin]

I have good genetics, I come from pure white blood, didn't you know, whites do not get sick, and when they do little white fairies come and cure them. Also being white I can simply walk into any business and get a $80k a year job with full benefits.

I will do anything possible to provide for my kids, minus groveling to the government for assistance, I will make my own way through life. I dont depend on others to pay my way.

I really wish you had the balls to be the armed to the teeth mountain survivalist you like to pretend to be so you'd cut yourself off from the rest of us and we'd never have to hear your tripe ever again. Your continued dismissal of wanting a fair health care system as simply people "wanting something for nothing" and being lazy and only relying on others is disgusting.

[underdog]

I missed this part.

So who's going to come to your aid when " your " house is broken into ?

Who's gonna come to " your " aid when your house is on fire ?

How are you getting back and forth from anywhere ? So how are my roads not your roads ?

Exactly.

yes, because the government will fuck it up.

Just like its fucked up the police and fire departments?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This is mind-boggling.

And bottling.


Cash for clunkers was a great success? Amtrak is a poster child for profitability?

Having the government control 16% of the economy is mind boggling

Im not saying that the Insurance companies should keep on with their practices. Government run healthcare, socialized medicine, whatever you want to call it might be successful in Denmark or Sweden, but we have 305 million people in this country. Where will all these doctors come if 47 million are added to a public option?

No one should be left to die in the streets, However theres got to be a better alternative than having the government step in. Since Insurance is regulated by the states, have the states reform it and if they don't then they dont receive federal funds

[Furtherman]

I have good genetics, I come from pure white blood, didn't you know, whites do not get sick, and when they do little white fairies come and cure them. Also being white I can simply walk into any business and get a $80k a year job with full benefits.

I will do anything possible to provide for my kids, minus groveling to the government for assistance, I will make my own way through life. I dont depend on others to pay my way.


I just wish he had the brains to post a proper satirical response. He's a man without a gym at this point.

But he probably really does think this way.

[angrymissy]

yes, because the government will fuck it up.

its because people want something for nothing, they want something that costs $1000, for $50, and they want people who have more to subsidize the other $950.

Well i want a goddamn Porsche, and I want to pay $5000 for it and have Bill Gates subsidize the other $85000.

I have good genetics, I come from pure white blood, didn't you know, whites do not get sick, and when they do little white fairies come and cure them. Also being white I can simply walk into any business and get a $80k a year job with full benefits.

I will do anything possible to provide for my kids, minus groveling to the government for assistance, I will make my own way through life. I dont depend on others to pay my way.


K

I ask you again, what happens if you don't have the money to pay for a major medical problem that your child could develop?

Thinning of the herd?

You can't seriously be equating wanting a Porsche with wanting basic medical care.

[DiabloSammich]

With or without insurance, undocumented people will still sick sick/hurt. When they do, they will still go to the hospital where they can not be denied care.

So either way someone still has to pay for their health care.




What he said.

[TheMojoPin]

Cash for clunkers was a great success?

Yes.

Amtrak is a poster child for profitability?

It works, same as the postal service. Is it perfect or ideal? Of course not. We're talking about creating the best health insurance system here: we're talking about something functionable that would allow basic coverage to the people that can't afford it. It just has to be serviceable and functional.

Having the government control 16% of the economy is mind boggling

Im not saying that the Insurance companies should keep on with their practices. Government run healthcare, socialized medicine, whatever you want to call it might be successful in Denmark or Sweden, but we have 305 million people in this country. Where will all these doctors come if 47 million are added to a public option?

Nobody is talking about the government controlling all of the health care industry or the health insurance industry.

The psuh reform now, as it was in the 90's, centers on creating a public option, not a socialized single care/pay system. The intention was not and is not to replace everything with government-run health care. The closest working example right now would be what Germany has, not Sweden or Canada.

[earthbrown]

Exactly.



Just like its fucked up the police and fire departments?


Yes, police departments all over the country are enforcing arbitrary traffic laws all to raise revenue to the government. I agree we need to have traffic enforcement, but it should not be used simply to raise revenue.

If you are sick or hurt, you can walk into any hospital in the US and get top notch care, and I pay for it anyway, by paying my insurance and paying my bills.

Healthcare is not a right, it is a privileged and it should be treated as such.

K

[TheMojoPin]

Are you really refusing to understand how reforming the system would ideally drive down the costs you're so proud to pay?

And your idea of what's a "right" seems incredibly subjective. Why are all the things you're defending as being worth your taxes rights?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yes.



It works, same as the postal service. Is it perfect or ideal? Of course not. We're talking about creating the best health insurance system here: we're talking about something functionable that would allow basic coverage to the people that can't afford it. It just has to be serviceable and functional.



Nobody is talking about the government controlling all of the health care industry or the health insurance industry.

The psuh reform now, as it was in the 90's, centers on creating a public option, not a socialized single care/pay system. The intention was not and is not to replace everything with government-run health care. The closest working example right now would be what Germany has, not Sweden or Canada.


I think that this might eventually lead to single payer. The progressives are upset that single payer isnt on the table. Barney Frank for example says that this is a stepping stone for a single payer system

[TheMojoPin]

I think that this might eventually lead to single payer. The progressives are upset that single payer isnt on the table. Barney Frank for example says that this is a stepping stone for a single payer system

That would be highly unlikely and would be exceedingly difficult to put into effect. Look the difficulty getting this to pass, and this just barely resembles anything along the lines of a single payer system.

[underdog]

Healthcare is not a right, it is a privileged and it should be treated as such.

I never get this argument.

So, protecting people from dying by other countries invading is a right.

Protecting people from dying by curable diseases is a privilege?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What he said.

The cost is being passed down to everyone else. Each time an illegal alien has another Baby thats about 5000-8000 that the Hospital will never get. Many illegals keep having children and do not pay a dime.

In Port Chester NY, Close to where I used to live United Hospital had to close because the illegals were running up huge medical bills, it wasnt just for child birth illegals were going there because they got hurt on the job, their boss dropped them off and sped off. Also they were using the ER when they had a common cold

Is thatreally fair that someone can come into this country illegally and get gold plated medical care without contributing, meanwhile many Americans have to choose either paying for insurance or the mortgage?

[TheMojoPin]

The cost is being passed down to everyone else. Each time an illegal alien has another Baby thats about 5000-8000 that the Hospital will never get. Many illegals keep having children and do not pay a dime.

In Port Chester NY, Close to where I used to live United Hospital had to close because the illegals were running up huge medical bills, it wasnt just for child birth illegals were going there because they got hurt on the job, their boss dropped them off and sped off. Also they were using the ER when they had a common cold

Is thatreally fair that someone can come into this country illegally and get gold plated medical care without contributing, meanwhile many Americans have to choose either paying for insurance or the mortgage?

As HBox said, that's a matter of immigration reform. Approaching it from the health care reform angle is approaching the issue completely backwards.

[silera]

a. Please cite sources instead of fallacies
b. Part of healthcare reform would address the fact that having a baby should not cost 5-8k for most deliveries.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

a. Please cite sources instead of fallacies
b. Part of healthcare reform would address the fact that having a baby should not cost 5-8k for most deliveries.

Border states like TX, NM, AZ and CA are the most affected by illegal aliens not paying for medical care

Do you really think someone making $9.00 an hour off the books mowing lawns can afford medical care? They dont pay a dime

As for reform cut the supply (employers off) penalize them by using the IRS for example they would love nothing more than to find tax cheats like Landscaping company owners paying illegals with cash. Also landlords renting a house to 30 of them should be severely punished. If theres no work,and no place to live they will self deport

[silera]

Show me the sources. It is clear that the uninsured- legal or illegal, cost all of us money. However, the idea that spics (yes ill say the word because it's quite obvious what the intent was) reproducing (god forbid, they're taking over you know!!!) are the primary contributor to the increased costs is ridiculous at best. More likely, the increased costs of keeping our older citizens alive, excesive testing, prescription costs, and emergency treatment as opposed to preventive care are all contributing factors.

As a nation, many of us are descendents or legal immigrants that are legal only because the laws weren't put in place at the time. To call someone a criminal because you had the fortune to have been able to enter the US before the restrictions is silly. Because of all the politics, and sadly racisim and nativism that surrounds the immigration argument just muddles the immigration issue. Sadly, we won't achieve all the cost savings if they are not included because we'll still be stuck with 10-12 million uninsured that will still be utilizing the system.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Show me the sources. It is clear that the uninsured- legal or illegal, cost all of us money. However, the idea that spics (yes ill say the word because it's quite obvious what the intent was) reproducing (god forbid, they're taking over you know!!!) are the primary contributor to the increased costs is ridiculous at best. More likely, the increased costs of keeping our older citizens alive, excesive testing, prescription costs, and emergency treatment as opposed to preventive care are all contributing factors.

As a nation, many of us are descendents or legal immigrants that are legal only because the laws weren't put in place at the time. To call someone a criminal because you had the fortune to have been able to enter the US before the restrictions is silly. Because of all the politics, and sadly racisim and nativism that surrounds the immigration argument just muddles the immigration issue. Sadly, we won't achieve all the cost savings if they are not included because we'll still be stuck with 10-12 million uninsured that will still be utilizing the system.


Here are some sources, please take a look. Their own countries should be taking care of them,

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090821/Illegal-immigrant-dialysis-in-Las-Vegas-costly-to-hospitals-system.aspx


http://www.miamiherald.com/news/southflorida/story/1160221.html?storylink=mirelated


Illegal aliens broke the law by coming here illegally. They are the problem but I will say it again, greedy business owners concerned about their bottom line are at fault. People who should be even more offended by people cutting the line are the ones who came here legally, went thru the process, and did it the right way

Maybe the Southern border should become the new ellis Island, this way people can be screened for diseases, criminal records etc. It may not be perfect, there were some who snuck thru ellis island but no process is 100% effective

I agree that preventative measures must be used. Why should I pay for someone who ate fast food every day and refused to exercise

[TheMojoPin]

I agree that preventative measures must be used. Why should I pay for someone who ate fast food every day and refused to exercise

Why should anyone pay for your care if you get cancer?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Why should anyone pay for your care if you get cancer?

I was talking about preventive care. Generally speaking if someone eats fast food and doesnt exercise, they will risk having a heart attack, diabetes or other diseases from their behavior

[TheMojoPin]

I was talking about preventive care. Generally speaking if someone eats fast food and doesnt exercise, they will risk having a heart attack, diabetes or other diseases from their behavior

What are you, a death panel?

[silera]

- The first article was regarding the cost to Vegas hospitals for dialysis for illegal immigrants. Vegas is far from the border and dialysis isn't childbirth. Either way, this wasn't your original assertion regarding Mexicans swimming over to pop out brown babies at a cost of 8k a pop.

- Second article was regarding an illegal immigrant that suffered a brain injury and was loaded on a plane back to Guatemala. Again, not a birthing Mexican. Really sad. I guess Terry Schiavo is worth keeping alive on Medicaid at the tax payers expense but the dirty spic wasn't. I don't know enough about the case but I will say, if the conservative right is going to lose their shit regarding death panels and abortion, they really reveal their inherent racisim when they celebrate shit like this and rave about mexicans having kids.

http://www.icc-centex.org/files/u1/Austin_ERs_got_2_678_visits_from_9_people.pdf

Austin ER's got 2,678 visits from 9 people over 6 years
Task force seeking ways to divert non-emergencies away from emergency rooms.

In the past six years, eight people from Austin and one from Luling racked up 2,678 emergency room visits in Central Texas, costing hospitals, taxpayers and others $3 million, according to a report from a nonprofit made up of hospitals and other providers that care for the uninsured and low-income Central Texans.
...

The report that mentioned the nine high-frequency patients didn't include reasons for all of those ER visits and didn't identify the patients because of privacy laws. But Kitchen, a former state legislator from Austin, gave a sketch: All nine speak English; three are homeless; five are women whose average age is 40, and four are men whose average age is 50. Seven have a mental health diagnosis and eight have a drug abuse diagnosis. Kitchen said she did not know their citizenship status.


There are tons of specific cases that make it clear that as a nation, we would all benefit from addressing how to provide healthcare for everyone because we all bear the burden whether we like it or not.

[Crispy123]

Why should anyone pay for your care if you get cancer?

I was talking about preventive care. Generally speaking if someone eats fast food and doesnt exercise, they will risk having a heart attack, diabetes or other diseases from their behavior

so of course you dont use a cell phone or a microwave or eat red meat right? And obviously you dont drink anything with asparteme or smoke or use deodorant or drive a car right?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

- The first article was regarding the cost to Vegas hospitals for dialysis for illegal immigrants. Vegas is far from the border and dialysis isn't childbirth. Either way, this wasn't your original assertion regarding Mexicans swimming over to pop out brown babies at a cost of 8k a pop.

- Second article was regarding an illegal immigrant that suffered a brain injury and was loaded on a plane back to Guatemala. Again, not a birthing Mexican. Really sad. I guess Terry Schiavo is worth keeping alive on Medicaid at the tax payers expense but the dirty spic wasn't. I don't know enough about the case but I will say, if the conservative right is going to lose their shit regarding death panels and abortion, they really reveal their inherent racisim when they celebrate shit like this and rave about mexicans having kids.

http://www.icc-centex.org/files/u1/Austin_ERs_got_2_678_visits_from_9_people.pdf



There are tons of specific cases that make it clear that as a nation, we would all benefit from addressing how to provide healthcare for everyone because we all bear the burden whether we like it or not.



There you go, cry racism when people want the laws enforced. You have declared yourself ineffective on this arguement. Cant defend illegal behavior you throw out the racism schtick, the line is old. Schiavo was an American citizen. Illegal aliens broke the law

Heres your source on illegals coming to America having children. This was a $4700 procedure and she did not pay a dime. Free medical care!!!!! Americans pay for this

I find it appalling that Americans are being denied insurance, but these illegals come here to get perks they dont deserve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_ZnX9JRo5M

[TheMojoPin]

I find it appalling that Americans are being denied insurance, but these illegals come here to get perks they dont deserve

A broke American gets the same faux-"perks" as a broke immigrant in terms of health care.

[silera]

I'm not crying racism. It speaks for itself. Either lives matter or they don't. They don't matter based solely on origin of birth or economic class.

Those against reform want to make sure that the public plan not cover abortion AND concurrently ensure that sick and dying LIVING individuals are also not covered. I've seen calls to put in place measures that encourage hospitals to report undocumented patients. What is that other than incentive to keep them away from care? Even if you don't give a shit about them, for self preservation alone it is necessary to make sure the sick are cared for to prevent disease.

It's a mind boggling circle jerk. The only way to explain it is racism. The face of the illegal in the hypotheticals I always hear isn't the irish or the canadian. It is the pregnant mexican. When asked to provide proof of these illegals that come here to birth "anchor" babies, you find two articles that have nothing to do with your initial statement.

Personally, I think we do ourselves a disservice economically by not addressing the issue. Morally, the disregard for human life is repugnant.

[A.J.]

Why should anyone pay for your care if you get cancer?

Big Tobacco lied to us!

[earthbrown]

I'm not crying racism. It speaks for itself. Either lives matter or they don't. They don't matter based solely on origin of birth or economic class.

Those against reform want to make sure that the public plan not cover abortion AND concurrently ensure that sick and dying LIVING individuals are also not covered. I've seen calls to put in place measures that encourage hospitals to report undocumented patients. What is that other than incentive to keep them away from care? Even if you don't give a shit about them, for self preservation alone it is necessary to make sure the sick are cared for to prevent disease.

It's a mind boggling circle jerk. The only way to explain it is racism. The face of the illegal in the hypotheticals I always hear isn't the irish or the canadian. It is the pregnant mexican. When asked to provide proof of these illegals that come here to birth "anchor" babies, you find two articles that have nothing to do with your initial statement.

Personally, I think we do ourselves a disservice economically by not addressing the issue. Morally, the disregard for human life is repugnant.

here you go...

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/668471/texas_facing_immigrant_birth_dilemma/index.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/07/eveningnews/main4000401.shtml

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters460 8

http://www.examiner.com/x-3515-Denver-Immigration-Reform-Examiner~y2009m7d15-Anchor-babies-born-in-the-USAenormous-taxpayer-costsPart-II

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/healthcare/la-na-health-immigrants12-2009sep12,0,3465175.story

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/28/us/28deport.html

http://www.uslaw.com/bulletin/hospital-studies-costs-of-treating-illegal-immigrants.php?p=816

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

http://antonovich.co.la.ca.us/Pages/Press%20Releases/09/August/Welfare%20costs%20081109.html

http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back1302.html

[silera]

What are those articles proving? The uninsured, legal or illegal cost money. Unless the illegals are rounded up and carted off, they'll still be here. While they are here, as much as some may dislike it, they're going to need medical attention for stuff. Not including or including them in health reform isn't going to make them disappear. I can even be argued btw- that the presence of illegal immigrants contributes tremendously to the economies of every area that they are present in- by increasing profit margins for all the businesses that are supported by their labor, and reducing out of pocket expenses for all citizens on everything from produce, home improvement, construction, child care etc.

Either way, my disgust still stands because no one can explain to me why people that proclaim they "value life" have nothing but disdain for the lives of immigrants. You can wrap it up in any cause you'd like, but it's still born of fear and hate.

[hanso]

Bush wanted to make them legal. Going back to the time of 9-11

[vjr97]

AWWWWW HELL TO THE FUCKING NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats an insult to immigrants that are here and going through do process. your here illegaly-FUCK U!! u want to work of the books somehwere no problem.but dont start crying because u cant handle the consequences of your illegal actions

[vjr97]

What are those articles proving? The uninsured, legal or illegal cost money. Unless the illegals are rounded up and carted off, they'll still be here. While they are here, as much as some may dislike it, they're going to need medical attention for stuff. Not including or including them in health reform isn't going to make them disappear. I can even be argued btw- that the presence of illegal immigrants contributes tremendously to the economies of every area that they are present in- by increasing profit margins for all the businesses that are supported by their labor, and reducing out of pocket expenses for all citizens on everything from produce, home improvement, construction, child care etc.

Either way, my disgust still stands because no one can explain to me why people that proclaim they "value life" have nothing but disdain for the lives of immigrants. You can wrap it up in any cause you'd like, but it's still born of fear and hate.

make sure u include the word illegal in front of immigrant.thats who we have a problem w/.not those that are here going through do process.u cant say anyting slighty critical of a black person w/o losing your job-the same exact people do not hate immigrants

[foodcourtdruide]

AWWWWW HELL TO THE FUCKING NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats an insult to immigrants that are here and going through do process. your here illegaly-FUCK U!! u want to work of the books somehwere no problem.but dont start crying because u cant handle the consequences of your illegal actions

I agree. Anyone who is caught speeding should have their health insurance removed.

[foodcourtdruide]

What are those articles proving? The uninsured, legal or illegal cost money. Unless the illegals are rounded up and carted off, they'll still be here. While they are here, as much as some may dislike it, they're going to need medical attention for stuff. Not including or including them in health reform isn't going to make them disappear. I can even be argued btw- that the presence of illegal immigrants contributes tremendously to the economies of every area that they are present in- by increasing profit margins for all the businesses that are supported by their labor, and reducing out of pocket expenses for all citizens on everything from produce, home improvement, construction, child care etc.

Either way, my disgust still stands because no one can explain to me why people that proclaim they "value life" have nothing but disdain for the lives of immigrants. You can wrap it up in any cause you'd like, but it's still born of fear and hate.

Your last point is exactly why we need government to oversee health care for the middle class and poor. If there was a private system, private individuals and organizations would have an insane amount of power.

[underdog]

Either way, my disgust still stands because no one can explain to me why people that proclaim they "value life" have nothing but disdain for the lives of immigrants. You can wrap it up in any cause you'd like, but it's still born of fear and hate.

Because they weren't lucky enough to be born on this part of the Earth, silly. So fuck them. That makes them different and subhuman.

[epo]

Because they weren't lucky enough to be born on this part of the Earth, silly. So fuck them. That makes them different and subhuman.

Ask a legal resident how their descendants got here and they have no clue how much illegal shit happened in their families past...

[Kublakhan61]

Heres your source on illegals coming to America having children. This was a $4700 procedure and she did not pay a dime. Free medical care!!!!! Americans pay for this

I find it appalling that Americans are being denied insurance, but these illegals come here to get perks they dont deserve


I realize people are saying this very same thing but maybe if we say it slower it will sink in:

Americans are paying for the care of illegal immigrants as of right now, this would not change if health care were reformed, we'd still be paying for them. This is not a valid argument.

Americans, while they may find themselves being denied health care (insurance), they are not being denied medical care. If a poor white woman goes to the ER because she fears she has suffered a stroke, or she is pregnant, or she has broken her arm, the situation will be resolved and she will be billed. When she defaults on this bill, because she is poor, the American people will pay for it. So, nothing changes here, either, illegals are also being denied health care.

Here's four positive results that we'd see if the reform were to occur:

-It would afford small businesses and their employees cheaper plans, that offer better coverage then they are currently getting
-It would boost the economy of the middle and lower classes, who are currently paying too great of an out of pocket cost
-It would cover the cost of the implementation of a Health IT System, a system proven to increase the quality of care received by the patient
-It would reform the payment system so that DRs are paid better money based on the quality of care given, not the number of office visits they tally in a given quarter.

[underdog]

Ask a legal resident how their descendants got here and they have no clue how much illegal shit happened in their families past...

Hey, my family came here legally. They were on the Mayflower.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Well, they are here illegally after all. Thus they are entitled to nothing really other than a ticket home. THEY chose to come here and remain here against the established laws of this country. If you don’t like that then work to change the laws. Talk to ANYONE who DOES come here through the process and they will be the most angry and annoyed with those who don’t, and rightly so.

When illegals start paying their share of taxes (which by definition they do not, other than pittance sales taxes when they buy their goods here) then maybe they can participate in their share of benefits. Then there’s the argument that they’re here anyway, and they do jobs cheaply that others don’t want to do, so they contribute to the economy, and so forth… Well, if they were not here the system of supply and demand would have a tendency to correct that. The work would get done, get done at a higher price/wage, and those doing it would actually be contributing something back to the system through taxes.

That said I would be all for some sort of amnesty program for those already here - to allow them to take the steps necessary to establish themselves legally - if they are not of the criminal element and are willing to “become legitimate”. If that happens though, to make that approach effective we will have to step up and rigorously enforce our immigration laws and borders and stop the flow of illegals. Otherwise, such as program would be worthless. Then, these people could become contributing members of this country and be eligible for benefits available to those who chose to follow the law in the first place.

[west milly Tom]

What are those articles proving? The uninsured, legal or illegal cost money. Unless the illegals are rounded up and carted off, they'll still be here. While they are here, as much as some may dislike it, they're going to need medical attention for stuff. Not including or including them in health reform isn't going to make them disappear. I can even be argued btw- that the presence of illegal immigrants contributes tremendously to the economies of every area that they are present in- by increasing profit margins for all the businesses that are supported by their labor, and reducing out of pocket expenses for all citizens on everything from produce, home improvement, construction, child care etc.

Either way, my disgust still stands because no one can explain to me why people that proclaim they "value life" have nothing but disdain for the lives of immigrants. You can wrap it up in any cause you'd like, but it's still born of fear and hate.


http://comps.fotosearch.com/comp/BDX/BDX186/cuckoo-clock_~bxp34725.jpg

They're not citizens. If we are talking about our latin illegals, they have government run health care where they're from.

[SP1!]

Why are people even arguing that illegals should be given care? How soft has this nation become? We are also one of the few nations that lifted all restrictions on immigration, thanks to mushy dead head kennedy.

If you are illegal then you dont get free care, we fix anything life threatening then hold you until the bus arrives to ship you back home, if you give birth your child is a citizen by default but the mother is not so the child can stay but the mother cant unless she applies for citizenship.

And yes I know full well how my family got here, it wasnt pretty but it was legal, lets just say indentured servitude is a bitch, my great great great grandmothers writings are interesting and contracts somehow kept getting lost or rewritten. Aside from getting better quarters or being beat as hard it wasnt much better than being a slave.

[silera]

That said I would be all for some sort of amnesty program for those already here - to allow them to take the steps necessary to establish themselves legally - if they are not of the criminal element and are willing to “become legitimate”. If that happens though, to make that approach effective we will have to step up and rigorously enforce our immigration laws and borders and stop the flow of illegals. Otherwise, such as program would be worthless. Then, these people could become contributing members of this country and be eligible for benefits available to those who chose to follow the law in the first place.



Agreed.

As far as health care, morally most people are not on board to deny people emergency care. I hope we can all agree it is wrong. If you enforce immigration laws at hospitals, you encourage illegals to go underground with health problems and in turn cause deaths and spread of disease. Again, it would be morally repugnant to do that and counterproductive to the overall goal of a healthier nation.

As far as the moniker of "criminal" for illegal aliens. Our prison population receives medical care. They are all convicted criminals. If in the effort of saving money, prisons decided to deny care to convicts, it would be unconstitutional.

We have to deal with realities. Reality is illegal immigrants are here. Theyre here for various reasons and the illegality could be dealth with but hasn't. If corporations and lobbyists stopped reaping the benefits of undocumented labor, I'd bet the borders would be secured and the immigration issue dealth with swiftly. In the interim, I wouldn't feal American or Christian if our policy was to let people die.

[silera]

Kublakhan61- perfectly said.

[foodcourtdruide]

In the end, is the point to punish illegal immigrants or do what's best for this country and what is humane?

[yojimbo7248]

I realize people are saying this very same thing but maybe if we say it slower it will sink in:

Americans are paying for the care of illegal immigrants as of right now, this would not change if health care were reformed, we'd still be paying for them. This is not a valid argument.

Americans, while they may find themselves being denied health care (insurance), they are not being denied medical care. If a poor white woman goes to the ER because she fears she has suffered a stroke, or she is pregnant, or she has broken her arm, the situation will be resolved and she will be billed. When she defaults on this bill, because she is poor, the American people will pay for it. So, nothing changes here, either, illegals are also being denied health care.

Here's four positive results that we'd see if the reform were to occur:

-It would afford small businesses and their employees cheaper plans, that offer better coverage then they are currently getting
-It would boost the economy of the middle and lower classes, who are currently paying too great of an out of pocket cost
-It would cover the cost of the implementation of a Health IT System, a system proven to increase the quality of care received by the patient
-It would reform the payment system so that DRs are paid better money based on the quality of care given, not the number of office visits they tally in a given quarter.

you said it perfectly.

[TheMojoPin]

Why are people even arguing that illegals should be given care?

Because it's the humane thing to do. Anyone who needs urgent medical care here should get it.

What are the odds that the people spouting off about "death panels" are also the first to support the idea of denying illegals health CARE (and you specified care, not coverage).

[earthbrown]

I agree. Anyone who is caught speeding should have their health insurance removed.

Speeding??? The act of coming here illegally and trying to take the system for all they will give is more like taking someones car, and then expecting that person to fill the tank for you.

Seems the illegals get a pass cause they are attempting to have a better life, well my robbing banks and getting away with it would be a better life, so I should get a pass to.

It is simply stealing anyway you cut it, social services are intended for those here legally, if you are here illegally and take the social services you are also committing fraud in order to steal.



Ask a legal resident how their descendants got here and they have no clue how much illegal shit happened in their families past...

Mine all came through Ellis Island.

Hey, my family came here legally. They were on the Mayflower.

Did they??? I doubt it, if all your family came here on the Mayflower I would have to say you would be pretty inbred after 500 years.


K

[TheMojoPin]

So earthbrown, given your repeated analogies, you think all or most illegals are here just to take and have zero intention of actually just wanting to live in and be a productive part of America?

[Kublakhan61]

Kublakhan61- perfectly said.

you said it perfectly.

This is the most accomplished that I've felt all week.

[hanso]

Why are people even arguing that illegals should be given care? How soft has this nation become? We are also one of the few nations that lifted all restrictions on immigration, thanks to mushy dead head kennedy.

If you are illegal then you dont get free care, we fix anything life threatening then hold you until the bus arrives to ship you back home, if you give birth your child is a citizen by default but the mother is not so the child can stay but the mother cant unless she applies for citizenship.

And yes I know full well how my family got here, it wasnt pretty but it was legal, lets just say indentured servitude is a bitch, my great great great grandmothers writings are interesting and contracts somehow kept getting lost or rewritten. Aside from getting better quarters or being beat as hard it wasnt much better than being a slave.
Kennedy wanted blanket health coverage for all citizens.
Bush wanted to lift the illegal status of all immigrants.
And this is still in place and on going.

[earthbrown]

Kennedy wanted blanket health coverage for all citizens.
Bush wanted to lift the illegal status of all immigrants.
And this is still in place and on going.

Yes, and OVERWHELMINGLY the voters are not in favor of either plans.

We need to allow the people to vote on particular issues, time after time, laws are passed that are in DIRECT conflict with what the citizens want.


So earthbrown, given your repeated analogies, you think all or most illegals are here just to take and have zero intention of actually just wanting to live in and be a productive part of America?

I believe they come here cause its EASY. Its easy to come here and make a living, and if you cant make a living, the govt will take care of you.


K

[SP1!]

Because it's the humane thing to do. Anyone who needs urgent medical care here should get it.

What are the odds that the people spouting off about "death panels" are also the first to support the idea of denying illegals health CARE (and you specified care, not coverage).

Well I am against any plan that decides who should die and who shouldnt, besides I never said deny urgent medical care, what I did say was that treat them but ship them back.

As it stands now, the US is the only country that releases illegals after they are found out, mainly because people are too chicken shit to do anything about it, let them find out you are illegal in canada or got there illegally and they will ship you right back, well as long as you arent facing the death penalty for a crime.

We lifted all restrictions on immigration and thats bullshit, we should more extensive background checks before people are let in the country.

[SP1!]

Yes, and OVERWHELMINGLY the voters are not in favor of either plans.

We need to allow the people to vote on particular issues, time after time, laws are passed that are in DIRECT conflict with what the citizens want.

I believe they come here cause its EASY. Its easy to come here and make a living, and if you cant make a living, the govt will take care of you.

K
There are people here that come here and live 15 to a house just to make as much money as they can and ship it back to mexico or another central american country, if you dont realize that is happening they you have you head in the sand.

Now there are people that are here because their country offers them nothing and plan on staying in this country, there is no way around this now so we have to offer amnesty one time just to get everything straight. It would be like hitting the reset button on immigration.

Then tighten down the borders and give companies huge fines for employing illegals which we all know they do because its cheaper.

[The Jays]

Yeah? If you ship them back, we pay for the transport, and they will just end up back here anyway, which is throwing money down the drain. Figure out a better system then "treat em and ship em".

[TheMojoPin]

I believe they come here cause its EASY. Its easy to come here and make a living, and if you cant make a living, the govt will take care of you.

This displays a profound misunderstanding of how the welfare and unemployment system and its limitations. It's not something someone can be indefinitely.

The majority of immigrants come here to work because ultimately even if the jobs are shitty they'll make more than if they attempt to simply collect government checks (if they can even get them in the first place) for the limited time they can do so. It's corny, but the "land of opprtunity" line still holds true, as you seem to realize: people come here because they have more of a chance to survive even working shit jobs than they do stuck in the same relative economic and social level in their home countries. The majoroty of immigrants, illegal or legal, aren't looking for government handouts nor would the government be willing to pay the majority of immigrants something for nothing. They're very aware of what immigrants put back into the system through labor, spending and, yes, taxes vs. the costs. It's this difference that is the reason why neither Democrats or Republicans will push for truly expansive and effective immigration reform.

[TheMojoPin]

As it stands now, the US is the only country that releases illegals after they are found out, mainly because people are too chicken shit to do anything about it, let them find out you are illegal in canada or got there illegally and they will ship you right back, well as long as you arent facing the death penalty for a crime.

The US does indeed expell large numbers of illegal immigrants ever year.

[earthbrown]

There are people here that come here and live 15 to a house just to make as much money as they can and ship it back to mexico or another central american country, if you dont realize that is happening they you have you head in the sand.

Now there are people that are here because their country offers them nothing and plan on staying in this country, there is no way around this now so we have to offer amnesty one time just to get everything straight. It would be like hitting the reset button on immigration.

Then tighten down the borders and give companies huge fines for employing illegals which we all know they do because its cheaper.


yep, and when they send the money back, it takes it out of our economy, further taking it away from us.

SO they work at a farm, make $10 an hour, dont properly pay taxes, then send the money to mexico, where it is taken away from our economy.

Border should be secure, fence should be erected, and we can use the national guard to patrol it during there 2 weeks a year. Along with a permanent force of Border patrol, DEA, ATF, and military persons. You cannot have a country when the borders are overrun.



K

[underdog]

In the end, is the point to punish illegal immigrants or do what's best for this country and what is humane?

Punish illegals.

Did they??? I doubt it, if all your family came here on the Mayflower I would have to say you would be pretty inbred after 500 years.

You get jokes.

[The Jays]

yep, and when they send the money back, it takes it out of our economy, further taking it away from us.

SO they work at a farm, make $10 an hour, dont properly pay taxes, then send the money to mexico, where it is taken away from our economy.

Border should be secure, fence should be erected, and we can use the national guard to patrol it during there 2 weeks a year. Along with a permanent force of Border patrol, DEA, ATF, and military persons. You cannot have a country when the borders are overrun.



K

So, you're saying we should have a closed economy, where no money can be removed from it, nor can money be added to it from countries paying US firms.


And, it's ok for large income earners to squirrel away a million times more money in off shore bank accounts than these people do, but we shouldn't focus on them because avoiding taxes is the American way, at least when it comes to high income earners. Surely we don't need their vast sums of taxable income. But those illegals, we gotta kick them out because they are working jobs and, gasp, doing what they want to do with the wages.

[Death Metal Moe]

And earthbrown continues to be the poor man's LordJezo.

[Death Metal Moe]

I love the attitude some people have towards other humans. Like they're fucking cockroaches multiplying in your walls. Your contempt isn't ignored, believe me. And you are judged for it, by me and others.

Yea, send ALL the fucking immigrants "back to where they came from" and see how our economy suffers. People love to play this game that "They should go home" but don't understand they do a lot of the jobs we're not willing to do anymore. You think today's kids want to work in a field? Do you anti-immigration people want to raise kids that work in a field?

Well then who's gonna do it? If you paid someone a full salary with benefits your head of lettuce would be several dollars. Your cantaloupe would also cost several dollars. Your meat would go up several dollars a pound. Here and there your fucking shopping bill would probably go up to double what it is now.

The illegal immigrant argument is the stupidest one in our country right now. They're not going anywhere because your large companies need them here.

[Death Metal Moe]

Lastly, a couple Mexican guys work in the kitchen at Joey's Pizza in Milford, PA. It is, without a doubt, the BEST pizza I've ever had.

So Mexicans can't be evil, they helped make me the best pizza on the planet.

[booster11373]

.

[booster11373]

I love the attitude some people have towards other humans. Like they're fucking cockroaches multiplying in your walls. Your contempt isn't ignored, believe me. And you are judged for it, by me and others.

Yea, send ALL the fucking immigrants "back to where they came from" and see how our economy suffers. People love to play this game that "They should go home" but don't understand they do a lot of the jobs we're not willing to do anymore. You think today's kids want to work in a field? Do you anti-immigration people want to raise kids that work in a field?

Well then who's gonna do it? If you paid someone a full salary with benefits your head of lettuce would be several dollars. Your cantaloupe would also cost several dollars. Your meat would go up several dollars a pound. Here and there your fucking shopping bill would probably go up to double what it is now.

The illegal immigrant argument is the stupidest one in our country right now. They're not going anywhere because your large companies need them here.

:clap:

This my favorite contradiction of the Conservative anti-immigration crowd

The rank and file scream "Immagant go home" and "get your ass back to Eurasia" and yet the big business wing is completely opposite yet same party

[badmonkey]

:clap:

This my favorite contradiction of the Conservative anti-immigration crowd

The rank and file scream "Immagant go home" and "get your ass back to Eurasia" and yet the big business wing is completely opposite yet same party

They are anti-illegal immigrant, not anti-immigrant. There is a difference.

There was a guy murdered in my neighborhood a few weeks ago because he's an illegal immigrant living in a house full of illegal immigrants and doesn't use banks. Apparently some kids in the area figured that out and followed him and his son home and robbed them. The 2nd time they tried to rob him a few weeks later, he fought back and ended up getting stabbed to death. He wasn't picking lettuce tho. He was being paid under the table at a local restaurant. If we prevented illegal entry into this country, this guy might have come in legally and been able to use a bank and not have been murdered for his life's savings.

There's plenty of reasons to block random people from gaining unlawful access to the country. One of the main reasons is that everybody that enters this country illegally isn't coming to the jobs that we don't want to do. Some of them are here to murder our friends and neighbors. If we secure the borders, we can allow temporary work permits and allow those workers some sort of identification that would allow them to pay taxes on their wages, use banks to store their money, rent adequate housing and both they and American citizens can be a little bit safer. That's probably heartless and racist tho. I mean, that would jack the price of lettuce and we can't have that now can we?

[foodcourtdruide]

They are anti-illegal immigrant, not anti-immigrant. There is a difference.

There was a guy murdered in my neighborhood a few weeks ago because he's an illegal immigrant living in a house full of illegal immigrants and doesn't use banks. Apparently some kids in the area figured that out and followed him and his son home and robbed them. The 2nd time they tried to rob him a few weeks later, he fought back and ended up getting stabbed to death. He wasn't picking lettuce tho. He was being paid under the table at a local restaurant. If we prevented illegal entry into this country, this guy might have come in legally and been able to use a bank and not have been murdered for his life's savings.

There's plenty of reasons to block random people from gaining unlawful access to the country. One of the main reasons is that everybody that enters this country illegally isn't coming to the jobs that we don't want to do. Some of them are here to murder our friends and neighbors. If we secure the borders, we can allow temporary work permits and allow those workers some sort of identification that would allow them to pay taxes on their wages, use banks to store their money, rent adequate housing and both they and American citizens can be a little bit safer. That's probably heartless and racist tho. I mean, that would jack the price of lettuce and we can't have that now can we?

Wouldn't the solution be to give illegal immigrants an easier (but not free) path to citizenship? We can increase security along our border, however when someone slips by, why not let them become part of our system rather than encourage them to remain outside of it?

I may be wrong bm, earthbrown, sp1!, WRESTLINGFAN, but I always feel like a lot of conservatives are anti-illegal immigrants more for cultural reasons than anything else. Financially, it's never been proven to me that we lose significantly more than we gain by having them here and deportation costs a fortune and ultimately breaks up families.

I think that's why some people here have bought up racism. Why is the solution removing illegal immigrants from our society? I mentioned speeding before for a reason. What do you think kills more Americans a year? Illegal Immigrants or speeding? Which is more wreckless? Which is more of a danger for us? However, we are all comfortable with monetary penalties for speeding, but the price of illegal immigrants is DEPORTATION. I find that absurd, and again, who does that help? What is the point of deporting non-criminals?

[The Jays]

Lastly, a couple Mexican guys work in the kitchen at Joey's Pizza in Milford, PA. It is, without a doubt, the BEST pizza I've ever had.

So Mexicans can't be evil, they helped make me the best pizza on the planet.

That cannot be true. The best pizza on the planet is made by illegal immigrants at Denino's, Joe and Pat's and Nunzio's on Staten Island.

[TheMojoPin]

One of the main reasons is that everybody that enters this country illegally isn't coming to the jobs that we don't want to do. Some of them are here to murder our friends and neighbors. If we secure the borders, we can allow temporary work permits and allow those workers some sort of identification that would allow them to pay taxes on their wages, use banks to store their money, rent adequate housing and both they and American citizens can be a little bit safer. That's probably heartless and racist tho. I mean, that would jack the price of lettuce and we can't have that now can we?

Criminals coming to this country to continue being criminals are not going to be stopped by a "secure" Mexican border so long as we continue to have the gigantic porous border with Canada and the open borders along the oceans. The costs to actually secure ALL of our borders vastly outweighs the costs of illegal immigration.

I certainly agree with the idea that we need a drastic overhaul and reform of our immigration system, but the continued insistence that "securing" the Mexican/US border would have a significant impact on criminals entering and leaving our country is a false hope. The truly dangerous criminals and criminal organizations have will simply use the other almost wide open borders.

[badmonkey]

Criminals coming to this country to continue being criminals are not going to be stopped by a "secure" Mexican border so long as we continue to have the gigantic porous border with Canada and the open borders along the oceans. The costs to actually secure ALL of our borders vastly outweighs the costs of illegal immigration.

I certainly agree with the idea that we need a drastic overhaul and reform of our immigration system, but the continued insistence that "securing" the Mexican/US border would have a significant impact on criminals entering and leaving our country is a false hope. The truly dangerous criminals and criminal organizations have will simply use the other almost wide open borders.

Yes. We need to secure all of our borders, not just the one with Mexico. Canada will assist us with securing our shared border as it benefits them also. Mexico has said many times that they will not assist in securing our shared border. Instead, they distribute flyers and DVDs that tell their people how to sneak in over here and send the money back.

I'm not worried about the guy that wants to come over here and pick lettuce so his family can have a better life. I'm more worried about the drug wars in Mexico that are currently spilling over onto our side of the border. We can make it easier for the guy that wants to come here and work, while making it harder for the thugs, thieves, and murderers. Coming here legally, even as a temporary worker, beats the shit out of possibly dying trying to sneak in illegally. There's a pretty high human cost with that as well.

[angrymissy]

I think I agree (sort of) with badmonkey on immigration.

Secure borders, but make it easier for people to come here who actually want to work legally.

I cannot morally support denying anyone healthcare, however.

[TheMojoPin]

Yes. We need to secure all of our borders, not just the one with Mexico. Canada will assist us with securing our shared border as it benefits them also. Mexico has said many times that they will not assist in securing our shared border. Instead, they distribute flyers and DVDs that tell their people how to sneak in over here and send the money back.

What would be the cost of actually effectively securing all of our borders? Are you comfortable with the continuous active military deployment within all of borders (this would have to include the coasts)?

I'm not worried about the guy that wants to come over here and pick lettuce so his family can have a better life.

A broad generalization, but utlimately it is one that applies to the majority of illegals here.

I'm more worried about the drug wars in Mexico that are currently spilling over onto our side of the border. We can make it easier for the guy that wants to come here and work, while making it harder for the thugs, thieves, and murderers. Coming here legally, even as a temporary worker, beats the shit out of possibly dying trying to sneak in illegally. There's a pretty high human cost with that as well.

Hey, I'm all for immigration reform. You'll never see me disagreeing with the idea that our current system needs a drastic overhaul to do just what you're talking about. I've also made it clear numerous times on this board that I am very concerned with the violence and crime caused by the drug wars in Mexico. As I pointed out in those discussions, serious move towards decriminalization and legalization of marijuana (by far the primary narcotic motivator in these conflicts) would go much further in defusing these wars as well the motivation of many of these criminals to enter the country than any beuracratic reform as well as any physical border security short of fullscale and fulltime military deployment engaging in active combat in the US and ultimately in Mexico. So long as a thriving market for their product exists here in this country due to our drug laws, the cartels will do whatever it takes to get their product and their people into this country.

[earthbrown]

So, you're saying we should have a closed economy, where no money can be removed from it, nor can money be added to it from countries paying US firms.


And, it's ok for large income earners to squirrel away a million times more money in off shore bank accounts than these people do, but we shouldn't focus on them because avoiding taxes is the American way, at least when it comes to high income earners. Surely we don't need their vast sums of taxable income. But those illegals, we gotta kick them out because they are working jobs and, gasp, doing what they want to do with the wages.

I am contradicting someones statement that they help the economy, and then is the same breath talking about the hard working people sending money back to families.


Neither is ok, the rich should be prosecuted for evading taxes, but the problem is the rich rule the country, so that aint gonna happen. Ted Kennedy skirted millions in taxes doing this before his death, he wanted so much to get his hands into my pocket, but when it comes to his pocket he zipped it shut.

Criminals coming to this country to continue being criminals are not going to be stopped by a "secure" Mexican border so long as we continue to have the gigantic porous border with Canada and the open borders along the oceans. The costs to actually secure ALL of our borders vastly outweighs the costs of illegal immigration.

I certainly agree with the idea that we need a drastic overhaul and reform of our immigration system, but the continued insistence that "securing" the Mexican/US border would have a significant impact on criminals entering and leaving our country is a false hope. The truly dangerous criminals and criminal organizations have will simply use the other almost wide open borders.

Northern border is not the problem, I dont see millions flooding south to come to america. Protect the southern LAND border, as well as stepping up the seaway patrols, I know criminals are resourceful, but it will at least keep many from simply WALKING ACROSS into the usa.



K

[badmonkey]

What would be the cost of actually effectively securing all of our borders? Are you comfortable with the continuous active military deployment within all of borders (this would have to include the coasts)?

http://www.uscg.mil/


A broad generalization, but utlimately it is one that applies to the majority of illegals here.



Hey, I'm all for immigration reform. You'll never see me disagreeing with the idea that our current system needs a drastic overhaul to do just what you're talking about. I've also made it clear numerous times on this board that I am very concerned with the violence and crime caused by the drug wars in Mexico. As I pointed out in those discussions, serious move towards decriminalization and legalization of marijuana (by far the primary narcotic motivator in these conflicts) would go much further in defusing these wars as well the motivation of many of these criminals to enter the country than any beuracratic reform as well as any physical border security short of fullscale and fulltime military deployment engaging in active combat in the US and ultimately in Mexico. So long as a thriving market for their product exists here in this country due to our drug laws, the cartels will do whatever it takes to get their product and their people into this country.

I also agree that legalizing marijuana would be a huge step towards resolving a lot of issues in this country. One of those issues will be making it more difficult for children to get their hands on and if they do manage to get it, it won't likely be laced with rat poison to give them a better high.

[TheMojoPin]

INorthern border is not the problem, I dont see millions flooding south to come to america. Protect the southern LAND border, as well as stepping up the seaway patrols, I know criminals are resourceful, but it will at least keep many from simply WALKING ACROSS into the usa.

If you don't understand how the northern border would become a problem if the southern border was all but shut down then you're REALLY not thinking this through. If you think it's easy to walk across the southern border right now, well, don't look north.

[TheMojoPin]

http://www.uscg.mil/

The Coast Guard is not deployed in anything resmbling the necessary security it would take to truly "secure" all of our borders from illegal immigration (especially on the part of criminals).

[earthbrown]

If you don't understand how the northern border would become a problem if the southern boarder was all but shut down then you're REALLY not thinking this through. If you think it's easy to walk across the southern border right now, well, don't look north.

so what will happen? Poor mexicans will fly to canada and then enter the usa through canada?

We will at least have the cooperation of the Canadian government, who will help quell the flow.

We need to first secure the south, then we can think about the "WHAT-IFS".


K

[Kublakhan61]

so what will happen? Poor mexicans will fly to canada and then enter the usa through canada?

We will at least have the cooperation of the Canadian government, who will help quell the flow.

We need to first secure the south, then we can think about the "WHAT-IFS".


K

In what way do these illegal immigrants impact your life? I don't fully understand your issue. Is it on principle that you'd don't want them here?

[badmonkey]

In what way do these illegal immigrants impact your life? I don't fully understand your issue. Is it on principle that you'd don't want them here?

They die sneaking in. Thousands of them every year die. That doesn't bother you?

[TheMojoPin]

so what will happen? Poor mexicans will fly to canada and then enter the usa through canada?

If we're talking active criminals seeking to come here for criminal reasons, yes, that's one of many ways that they will find and use to enter the country. And yes, there would be significant runoff of people simply looking for a better life willing to do what it takes to enter by the coasts or the northern border if the southern one is cut off. Any plan of closing off or locking down the southern border has to consider the repercussions on all of other borders. You'd just be spreading the current issues elsewhere. This cannot be apparoched as something that only needs to be "fixed" down south as you're suggesting.

[silera]

Is it the poor mexican or the terrorist or the drug dealer that's the problem?

Every 9-11 terrorist that entered the US entered with legal authority to do so and 5 of the 19 committed immigrations violations that rendered them illegal such as not changing status or overstaying the visa. None entered through canada or mexico. I quite frankly am more concerned about home grown terrorists of the McVey and congressional shooter variety.

Drug dealers can just as easily enter the US from the northern borders, or through our bountiful supply of unmanned ports. They have the resources and money to rework the supply chain once any area gets too difficult to outmanuever.

We're mixing up all the issues here and it's still coming down to keeping that fucking mexican out of the us. Regardless of how any illegal immigrant is in the US, be it the border, a student, a tourist that fell in love, once they are here- excluding provisions for their medical care does not a one a one of us an economic or moral service.

[foodcourtdruide]

They die sneaking in. Thousands of them every year die. That doesn't bother you?

I think we're closer to you than you are to earthbrown on this issue. I agree with you regarding border security, however I'd like to lessen the need for people to "sneak in" all together.

Why on Earth would we deny a cheap labor force? It makes no sense to me.

[TheMojoPin]

I think we're closer to you than you are to earthbrown on this issue. I agree with you regarding border security, however I'd like to lessen the need for people to "sneak in" all together.

Why on Earth would we deny a cheap labor force? It makes no sense to me.

Yeah, badmonkey and earthbrown are pretty fucking fart apart on this one. It sounds like most of us opposed to, well, anything earthbrown says agree with badmonkey on a number of issues in regards to immigration reform.

[foodcourtdruide]

Yeah, badmonkey and earthbrown are pretty fucking fart apart on this one. It sounds like most of us opposed to, well, anything earthbrown says agree with badmonkey on a number of issues in regards to immigration reform.

badmonkey is such a liberal :D

[TheMojoPin]

badmonkey is such a liberal :D

It was the thoughtful gift I got him for Xmas!

http://www.rall.com/wakeup.gif

[HBox]

badmonkey is such a liberal :D

I've had enough him trying to cram socialism down our throats.

[Willmore]

Wake up and smell the roses.

Communism has entered America.

Obamacare. Or as I like to call it: Dirty French Communist Care is nothing but an attempt by the government to control us. Now, I'm prepared and you should be too. Go to your local NRA accredited gun store and say the password "Don't tread on me." to the clerk at the counter and you will be given the full survival kit for the low price of 2999.99$. You will be given a flak jacket, 2 assault rifles (including M-16 rifles while supplies last) as well as other assorted supplies. You will also get a booklet of instructions.

We are taking back America, and if you're not with us, you'll be dealt with accordingly.

Give us Liberty or give us death!

Obama will feel our wrath and his knees shall quake in his soiled and blood-soaked underwear.


PS: I don't care if the dirty apes get health insurance, we'll kill 'em all soon enough and dead people don't use health insurance.

Glenn Beck for President!!! :clap::clap::clap::clap:

[Death Metal Moe]

Wake up and smell the roses.

Communism has entered America.

Obamacare. Or as I like to call it: Dirty French Communist Care is nothing but an attempt by the government to control us. Now, I'm prepared and you should be too. Go to your local NRA accredited gun store and say the password "Don't tread on me." to the clerk at the counter and you will be given the full survival kit for the low price of 2999.99$. You will be given a flak jacket, 2 assault rifles (including M-16 rifles while supplies last) as well as other assorted supplies. You will also get a booklet of instructions.

We are taking back America, and if you're not with us, you'll be dealt with accordingly.

Give us Liberty or give us death!

Obama will feel our wrath and his knees shall quake in his soiled and blood-soaked underwear.


PS: I don't care if the dirty apes get health insurance, we'll kill 'em all soon enough and dead people don't use health insurance.

Glenn Beck for President!!! :clap::clap::clap::clap:

Well, that's a very well informed, fair assessment of the situation. You'll fit right in on Ronfez.net these days.

[BlackSpider]

Well, that's a very well informed, fair assessment of the situation. You'll fit right in on Ronfez.net these days.



Oh, that didn't sound at all like a very well informed, fair assessment of the situation to me...

[Death Metal Moe]

Oh, that didn't sound at all like a very well informed, fair assessment of the situation to me...

OH literal BlackSpider!

[Willmore]

Well, that's a very well informed, fair assessment of the situation. You'll fit right in on Ronfez.net these days.

Thank you. That's all I'm saying. The dirty apes must be exterminated. If you don't want to go that far, I'm not above concentration labor camps. They come here to work, make them work. Now, we need to build a wall between us an Mexico. We don't want to pay much for it - use those mexicans. Round them up, put them into these correctional labor camps and make them work, that's all they are good for. Stalin and Hitler didn't have it all wrong.

[Death Metal Moe]

http://web.mit.edu/people/robot/zp/boards/bits.jpg

[Willmore]

http://web.mit.edu/people/robot/zp/boards/bits.jpg

Not really a fan of SAW, but I'm not above it. You do whatever you need to do to satisfy those urges, and we get right back to the mexicans. They're not good for anything else, might as well use them as masochistic fodder.

[Death Metal Moe]

Not really a fan of SAW, but I'm not above it. You do whatever you need to do to satisfy those urges, and we get right back to the mexicans. They're not good for anything else, might as well use them as masochistic fodder.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/njdmmoe/1241833964872.png

[Death Metal Moe]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/njdmmoe/sciencekitty.jpg

[Death Metal Moe]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/njdmmoe/ESD-dog.jpg

[Death Metal Moe]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/njdmmoe/ESDBomb.jpg

[Willmore]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/njdmmoe/1241833964872.png

Cute doggie. Shame it's gay. Gonna have to put it down when we take over. Glenn Beck says that gays want to corrupt our children, can't have any of that now.

Nothing against them personally, live and let live and all that, but our children are more important. So, concentration camps ... in fact, give them a state. I was never fond of New Hampshire, those liberal asshole might as well deal with it. All the gays to new hampshire and we take all the children out of there. They can't adopt (thank god for that), so eventually they will just die out, right?

[Death Metal Moe]

Glenn Beck is a know nothing shitdick.

[Death Metal Moe]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/njdmmoe/DMgondola.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

I really didn't think anyone would take Willmore seriously.

[zildjian361]

If they can pay the high price I pay every paycheck I pay.:wallbash:

[yojimbo7248]

I really didn't think anyone would take Willmore seriously.

is he your board character?

[underdog]

I really didn't think anyone would take Willmore seriously.

WMT did.

[Willmore]

I really didn't think anyone would take Willmore seriously.


Neither did I.

I thought I was laying the sarcasm way too thick there, apparently not :lol:

[Death Metal Moe]

Pic dumping is my way of playing back.

[yojimbo7248]

Neither did I.

I thought I was laying the sarcasm way too thick there, apparently not :lol:

It's tough because a lot of people believe everything you wrote.

[earthbrown]

Thank you. That's all I'm saying. The dirty apes must be exterminated. If you don't want to go that far, I'm not above concentration labor camps. They come here to work, make them work. Now, we need to build a wall between us an Mexico. We don't want to pay much for it - use those mexicans. Round them up, put them into these correctional labor camps and make them work, that's all they are good for. Stalin and Hitler didn't have it all wrong.


hear, hear!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/Nokari/Amen-Brother.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

Ahahahahahahahaaaah!

Right on cue. It's like someone switched on the racist scumbag-signal.

[underdog]

Ahahahahahahahaaaah!

Right on cue. It's like someone switched on the racist scumbag-signal.

Sorry, I'll shut that off.

[earthbrown]

Ahahahahahahahaaaah!

Right on cue. It's like someone switched on the racist scumbag-signal.

I believe you are prejudiced against people you feel are racist.

K

[epo]

I believe you are prejudiced against people you feel are racist.

K

Actually I'm certain that the persona you present to us here is a major racist.

[earthbrown]

Actually I'm certain that the persona you present to us here is a major racist.



Is it racist to think that people who entered this country illegally are not entitled to healthcare that I as a taxpayer pay for?

Is it racist to think that the burden of these illegals outweighs their benefit?


K

[booster11373]

Is it racist to think that people who entered this country illegally are not entitled to healthcare that I as a taxpayer pay for?

Is it racist to think that the burden of these illegals outweighs their benefit?


K

On a economic scale you as a taxpayer benefit much more from illegals then it costs you

[TheMojoPin]

Is it racist to think that people who entered this country illegally are not entitled to healthcare that I as a taxpayer pay for?

Is it racist to think that the burden of these illegals outweighs their benefit?


K

What's racist is how you've repeatedly clear how you view people of races other than yours as inferior and have supported or made statements calling for their general harm or even murder. It's not a matter of anyone having to read into your intentions because you've seemingly been more than happy to make them crystal clear since you first showed up.

[TheMojoPin]

I believe you are prejudiced against people you feel are racist.

K

Like that's a bad thing. You've not been subtle about what you think along these lines.

[epo]

Is it racist to think that people who entered this country illegally are not entitled to healthcare that I as a taxpayer pay for?

Is it racist to think that the burden of these illegals outweighs their benefit?


K

Let's ignore the fact that you are an obvious racist son-of-a-bitch.

Every credible study shows us that the Federal Government has positive net tax revenue vs. expenditures from illegal immigrants. With that fact in your pocket, how do you feel now big spender?

How does it feel to have your taxes LOWERED by illegal immigration? Still wanna stop them from coming?

[badmonkey]

I think we're closer to you than you are to earthbrown on this issue. I agree with you regarding border security, however I'd like to lessen the need for people to "sneak in" all together.

Why on Earth would we deny a cheap labor force? It makes no sense to me.

Yeah, badmonkey and earthbrown are pretty fucking fart apart on this one. It sounds like most of us opposed to, well, anything earthbrown says agree with badmonkey on a number of issues in regards to immigration reform.

Most conservatives are closer to you than they are to earthbrown on most issues. If you see us as even remotely similar...you are wrong, I am offended, and no fucking wonder I get treated the way I get treated here sometimes. I wish he would stop arguing my positions because it makes me look bad. It doesn't do any good for my position to have him twist it into some racist rant. It makes me wonder if earthbrown isn't just here to argue extremist positions to make conservatives look bad.

I was extremely liberal before Al Gore started his whining bullshit about the 2000 elections, 9/11 happened, and I spent about a year actually listening with an open mind to the what the other side was saying. I'm still pretty liberal on a lot of issues, but that side is pretty well represented here so I don't spend much time in those conversations.

I'm still trying to be open minded to both sides. Sometimes it doesn't work as well, but I do try.

[hanso]

Lettuce already is 1$ a head btw.

[earthbrown]

Let's ignore the fact that you are an obvious racist son-of-a-bitch.

Every credible study shows us that the Federal Government has positive net tax revenue vs. expenditures from illegal immigrants. With that fact in your pocket, how do you feel now big spender?

How does it feel to have your taxes LOWERED by illegal immigration? Still wanna stop them from coming?


Studies that do not take these major issues into account.

1. Cost of incarcerating illegals, not from immigration crimes, but from other serious criminal activities.

2. Cost of social services for anchor babies, this means any child of an illegal. How much is this costing us?

3. Cost of educating illegals.

4. Monetary cost of crime committed by illegals, DWI's involving death, robberies, rape, murder, etc.

5. Human cost of illegal immigration, how many people are killed in this country due to the actions of illegals, both criminal and deaths caused in accidents.

None of the above are factored into any cost analysis I have seen, most analysis by conservatives are incomplete at best, as the information is not readily available.

I do understand that in some areas illegals are a net positive on the economy, but I believe that is the minority.

Either way, bottom line is, someone immigrating here by improper channels, is illegal. It is against the rules of our government, and it spits in the face of people who immigrate properly. Being illegal, I want the laws enforced and the law breakers dealt with accordingly.

K

[foodcourtdruide]

I didn't want to repost all of earthbrowns above post.

There is SO much wrong with your post, but the most glaringly wrong is simple logic:

If illegals come here as adults, we do not have to pay their education. Do you understand the benefit of having a low-income workforce that we didn't have to send to school?

Also, "anchor-babies" are not illegal immigrants, so why factor them into cost?

[foodcourtdruide]

ALSO, if you want laws forced accordingly please dismiss any cost saving argument you have. The price of finding and deporting every illegal immigrant would be astronomical.

[earthbrown]

I didn't want to repost all of earthbrowns above post.

There is SO much wrong with your post, but the most glaringly wrong is simple logic:

If illegals come here as adults, we do not have to pay their education. Do you understand the benefit of having a low-income workforce that we didn't have to send to school?

Also, "anchor-babies" are not illegal immigrants, so why factor them into cost?

Anchor babies are a direct result of illegal activity, they are part of the cost of illegal immigration, thinking this is not true is insanity.

many children come here, who are not citizens, and we educate, or attempt to educate them. At great cost to us, as most need to be taught in spanish. This is not the childs fault, it is a result of their parents criminal activity.

Our society fucked up having low-income workforce, by telling everyone that they needed to go to college. Now you have no residents here to work in these jobs. But now there are a few million unemployed, too bad most of these unemployed would rather milk off unemployment than go make $8-10/hr mowing lawns or picking fruit.

[earthbrown]

ALSO, if you want laws forced accordingly please dismiss any cost saving argument you have. The price of finding and deporting every illegal immigrant would be astronomical.

deportation is not an option, but we need to stop the flow, and then let the dust settle. Once the dust settles, all criminal aliens need to go.

[Willmore]

1. Cost of incarcerating illegals, not from immigration crimes, but from other serious criminal activities.

As opposed to all the non-illegal immigrant criminal activity? People commit crimes, they go to jail. Their passport has nothing to do with it. American tax payers pay for the criminal system to keep us safe from everybody. Whether John Smith or Alejandro Gonzalez to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.


2. Cost of social services for anchor babies, this means any child of an illegal. How much is this costing us?

You mean U.S. citizens, don't you?



3. Cost of educating illegals.


Because what America needs in the 21st century is an UNeducated workforce.


4. Monetary cost of crime committed by illegals, DWI's involving death, robberies, rape, murder, etc.

5. Human cost of illegal immigration, how many people are killed in this country due to the actions of illegals, both criminal and deaths caused in accidents.

See 1.

[earthbrown]

As opposed to all the non-illegal immigrant criminal activity? People commit crimes, they go to jail. Their passport has nothing to do with it. American tax payers pay for the criminal system to keep us safe from everybody. Whether John Smith or Alejandro Gonzalez to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.



You mean U.S. citizens, don't you?



Because what America needs in the 21st century is an UNeducated workforce.


See 1.


1. If they did not illegally come here in the first place we would not be incarcerating thousands of them.

2. Yes the anchor baby is a us citizen caused by an illegal alien having a child in the USA. Again, had the underlying illegal activity not happened, the cost would not be there.

3. We do need ditch diggers, black, white, brown, and yellow ditch diggers.

4. If they were not here in the first place, everyone killed by their actions would be alive.

K

[foodcourtdruide]

deportation is not an option, but we need to stop the flow, and then let the dust settle. Once the dust settles, all criminal aliens need to go.

How is this plan not deporting all illegal immigrants? It sounds like you want to completely close the borders (north and south?), then deport all illegal aliens that are left over. This would cost exponentially more than it costs us right now.

[Kublakhan61]

At this point we need to just stop feeding the troll.

[epo]

How is this plan not deporting all illegal immigrants? It sounds like you want to completely close the borders (north and south?), then deport all illegal aliens that are left over. This would cost exponentially more than it costs us right now.

And yet he bitches about his current rate of taxation.

[Death Metal Moe]

At this point we need to just stop feeding the troll.

Bingo.

[foodcourtdruide]

Anchor babies are a direct result of illegal activity, they are part of the cost of illegal immigration, thinking this is not true is insanity.

many children come here, who are not citizens, and we educate, or attempt to educate them. At great cost to us, as most need to be taught in spanish. This is not the childs fault, it is a result of their parents criminal activity.

Our society fucked up having low-income workforce, by telling everyone that they needed to go to college. Now you have no residents here to work in these jobs. But now there are a few million unemployed, too bad most of these unemployed would rather milk off unemployment than go make $8-10/hr mowing lawns or picking fruit.

You are thinking about this in such a linear way. Children of illegal immigrants are NOT illegal immigrants. They are American citizens. Arguing that they are here unfairly is pointless. You are not for finding a plausible solution to immigration problems in this country, you are simply anti-illegal immigrant.

[foodcourtdruide]

At this point we need to just stop feeding the troll.

I'd agree with you if a significant amount of people in this country didn't think like him.

[earthbrown]

How is this plan not deporting all illegal immigrants? It sounds like you want to completely close the borders (north and south?), then deport all illegal aliens that are left over. This would cost exponentially more than it costs us right now.

not all, the criminals who also happen to be illegal.

persons of an illegal immigration status, who have also committed a crime, robbery, assault, murder, rape, DWI, etc.

Also throw in persons not supporting themselves, illegals receiving social services.

The ones who are here being productive citizens let um stay.


K

[Ritalin]

Anchor babies are a direct result of illegal activity, they are part of the cost of illegal immigration, thinking this is not true is insanity.

many children come here, who are not citizens, and we educate, or attempt to educate them. At great cost to us, as most need to be taught in spanish. This is not the childs fault, it is a result of their parents criminal activity.

Our society fucked up having low-income workforce, by telling everyone that they needed to go to college. Now you have no residents here to work in these jobs. But now there are a few million unemployed, too bad most of these unemployed would rather milk off unemployment than go make $8-10/hr mowing lawns or picking fruit.

Here's another word for anchor baby: citizen.

You, on the other hand, are an anchor citizen: it's people like you that's keeping my country from being as good as it can be.

Your words, your thoughts, are anchors dragging the rest of us down.

[earthbrown]

You are thinking about this in such a linear way. Children of illegal immigrants are NOT illegal immigrants. They are American citizens. Arguing that they are here unfairly is pointless. You are not for finding a plausible solution to immigration problems in this country, you are simply anti-illegal immigrant.

they are a part of the cost of illegal immigration. They are a part of illegal immigration, like water damage is to a house that as on fire. The fire did not cause the water damage, yet had it not been for the fire, the firefighters would not have been spraying water in there.

K

[Furtherman]

they are a part of the cost of illegal immigration. They are a part of illegal immigration, like water damage is to a house that as on fire. The fire did not cause the water damage, yet had it not been for the fire, the firefighters would not have been spraying water in there.

K

Oh. Ok.


:blink:

[TheMojoPin]

Oh. Ok.


:blink:

American citizens = water damage. Gotcha.

[earthbrown]

American citizens = water damage. Gotcha.

yep, simply dismiss a valid point.


That's all you are good at.



K

[TheMojoPin]

yep, simply dismiss a valid point.


That's all you are good at.



K

Its not a valid point. You want to dehumanize and marginalize people who are legally American citizens. Someone born here is not "water damage." You don't get to pick and choose who gets to be an American citizen based on whether their parents are legal or illegal immigrants.

[TheMojoPin]

Feh.

[foodcourtdruide]

yep, simply dismiss a valid point.


That's all you are good at.



K

It wasn't a valid point. You took something incredibly complex and compared it to something simple.

[Furtherman]

yep, simply dismiss a valid point.

That's all you are good at.



K

That's rich.

[Death Metal Moe]

Basically he's just screaming "They shouldn't be here in the 1st place so we shouldn't have to deal with them at all."

That's not realistic.

They are here now so we have been forced to deal with them. You can try to ignore them but the illegals aren't going anywhere. You can try to demonize them and hate them but that still won't make them go anywhere.

We have to decide what to do with them, legally, and we also have to decide what our immigration policy is going to be. Arguing that "They shouldn't have been here in the 1st place" is a child's mentality. We have to deal with the now, not the 20 years ago.