Fort Hood Shooting

[EliSnow]

There has been an incident at Fort Hood (http://www.kxxv.com/global/story.asp?s=11451553)with 7 dead and 20 wounded in a shooting spree.

[Dude!]

There has been an incident at Fort Hood (http://www.kxxv.com/global/story.asp?s=11451553)with 7 dead and 20 wounded in a shooting spree.

"Incident at Fort Hood"
great book/movie title

[Aggie]

seriously, dude? not funny.

this is terrible. :glurps:

[King Hippos Bandaid]

any theme to the shooting


postal employee

outcast High School Student

nutbar who is off his pills




srlsy this sucks when anyone is shot to death

[EliSnow]

One attacker has been "neutralized" (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/11/05/texas.fort.hood.shootings/index.html) and another has been "cornered."

[Furtherman]

"Incident at Fort Hood"
great book/movie title

Typical.



More than one shooter? This probably isn't an incident where someone lost their shit - this might be a planned attack.

[TheMojoPin]

More than one shooter? This probably isn't an incident where someone lost their shit - this might be a planned attack.

Which is unfortunately not all that surprising. Large military bases have a lot of issues with violent crime to begin with, but you couple that with active wars being waged and guys seriously suffering from PTS and other such issues and not really getting the treatment they need and it's a recipe for violence. Military bases around the country have been seeing surges in murders and violent crimes over the last few years. It's incredibly tragic.

[Misteriosa]

More than one shooter? This probably isn't an incident where someone lost their shit - this might be a planned attack.

its def very premeditated. those military families are under enough stress as it is.

[Furtherman]

I'm watching a live report now - up to 30 have been wounded.

The two shooters were in military uniforms but it's not been confirmed that they are actually military personnel.

[topless_mike]

hope this story turns around as much as it can.

[ozzie]

CNN is reporting 9 dead and 20 injured.

[ozzie]

CNN now reporting 12 dead, including one of the shooters.

Two other suspected shooters in custody.

[Furtherman]

From a General at Ft. Hood... Three shooters. One dead, one in custody, the other is still at large.

Edit: Started at 1:30 CT, 2:30 EST. Three shooters. 12 dead, including one shooter. The other two are now in custody. 31 wounded. The base is heavily guarded and it's very hard for someone to get in without proper identification.

[Furtherman]

CNN has Maj. General Robert Cone addressing the situation now.

It seems they were actual American soldiers.

[foodcourtdruide]

CNN has Maj. General Robert Cone addressing the situation now.

It seems they were actual American soldiers.

This is so tragic and awful and it being American soldiers just makes it seem even worse.

[JohnCharles]

This is so tragic and awful and it being American soldiers just makes it seem even worse.

The only part of it "being American soldiers" that makes it worse is just what Mojo said.

Hopefully, we take this tragedy and instead of boo-hooing like we always do, we spend some time and money on research and practice to keep our soldiers mentally stable.

[foodcourtdruide]

The only part of it "being American soldiers" that makes it worse is just what Mojo said.


I think that's a huge part of it, the mistreatment of soldiers in this country is sickening to be honest. I think there's more to it though. I admire our soldiers and for something like this to happen is like someone you look up to doing something terrible.

[deliciousV]

According to the AP. the shooter was Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan, don't jump to any politically incorrect conclusions though, you might hurt somebody's feelings.

[keithy_19]

Major Malik Nadal Hasan is apparently the name of the suspect.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/soldiers-killed-fort-hood-shooting/story?id=9007938

EDIT: Got beaten to it.

[GregoryJoseph]

AP & ABC reporting shooting suspect , Maj Malik Hasan was a Army mental health professional who was preparing to deploy.

Amazing.

[keithy_19]

Amazing.

I thought the same thing when I heard it.

[TheMojoPin]

Talk about ironic. That's horrible.

[Furtherman]

According to the AP. the shooter was Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan, don't jump to any politically incorrect conclusions though, you might hurt somebody's feelings.

The media already has. "Has a secret group infiltrated our Army?"

[conman823]

The media already has. "Has a secret group infiltrated our Army?"

The Media is fucking worthless. How about "Is this caused because our troops are treated like dogshit?"

And to their inane question, the answer is YES. The street gangs have been infiltrating our Army for years and using the tactics they learn on the streets. Thats a topic for a different day though.

[TheMojoPin]

And to their inane question, the answer is YES. The street gangs have been infiltrating our Army for years and using the tactics they learn on the streets. Thats a topic for a different day though.

That's an old, old story, unfortunately. Part and parcel that comes with maintaining a military of this scale on a volunteer basis.

[conman823]

That's an old, old story, unfortunately. Part and parcel that comes with maintaining a military of this scale on a volunteer basis.

The point is why not keep that in the Headlines? Why "spin" this into scare tactics?

I feel for all the victims families, even the shooters.

[SatCam]

Going Army is the new Going Postal

[Dude!]

Malik Hasan

best not to discuss that

[TheMojoPin]

Malik Hasan

best not to discuss that

Why not?

Don't be so lilly-livered.

[Dude!]

Why not?

Don't be so lilly-livered.

that's an old, old story

[TheMojoPin]

It's true. Guys from Virginia are known for this sort of thing.

[Dude!]

It's true. Guys from Virginia are known for this sort of thing.

like the dc snipers
moslems too

just a horrible coincidence
at least that's what the
govt. said

same at Ft. Hood
just an unfortunate coincidence

[keithy_19]

like the dc snipers
moslems too

just a horrible coincidence
at least that's what the
govt. said

same at Ft. Hood
just an unfortunate coincidence

He had expressed his disagreement with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. He had apparently tried hard to not get deployed. He had also, reportedly, said that he felt muslims in both countries should fight against US forces. Seems odd he would still be allowed in the service if that was true..

[TheMojoPin]

like the dc snipers
moslems too

just a horrible coincidence
at least that's what the
govt. said

same at Ft. Hood
just an unfortunate coincidence

Only one of the snipers was, and he was actually Nation of Islam.

There's no reason to ignore who this guy was, but this is a singularly bizarre event unless you think it's perfectly common that an American-born man goes through medical school, becomes a psychologist, becomes an officer in the military and then goes on a shooting rampage.

[IamFogHat]

It's true. Guys from Virginia are known for this sort of thing.

For the record I was born in Indiana.

[weekapaugjz]

Only one of the snipers was, and he was actually Nation of Islam.

There's no reason to ignore who this guy was, but this is a singularly bizarre event unless you think it's perfectly common that an American-born man goes through medical school, becomes a psychologist, becomes an officer in the military and then goes on a shooting rampage.

sleeper agents are all around us.

[TheMojoPin]

sleeper agents are all around us.

It's my number one concern.

[Dude!]

It's my number one concern.

your # 1 concern is sleeping

[Penelope]

The shooter is still alive.

[brettmojo]

It's my number one concern.
http://rlv.zcache.com/sleeper_agent_t_shirt-p235267040960784365q6vb_400.jpg

[opie's twisted balls]

Simply tragic.

[midwestjeff]

The shooter is still alive.

Fuckin' right!

http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/shooter-mcgavin-picture.jpg

[deliciousV]

What are the odds that the word "savage" will be used when O&A discuss this tomorrow?

[TheMojoPin]

The shooter is still alive.

What the fuck? How do they screw up THAT information?

A graduate of Virginia Tech, Hasan was a psychiatrist who was licensed in Virginia and was practicing at Darnall Army Medical Center at Fort Hood, according to professional records. Previously, he worked at Walter Reed Army Medical Center.

Poor VA Tech. It hasn't been an auspicious last couple of years for their students. You've got the Vick brothers, the mass shooting, the guy that beheaded his girlfriend on campus, the student who went missing after a Metallica concert and now this.

[Penelope]

It's true. Guys from Virginia are known for this sort of thing.

That's a good point. Fez was fine before he moved to Virginia. Ever since he lived in Virginia, he's been crazy. I've been in Virginia for six months and it feels like a prison sentence. I know I'm getting out after the end of the year though, that's what is keeping me sane. Charles Manson spent part of his childhood in a boy's reformatory in Virginia.

[joeyballsack]

Killeen, right outside of Ft. Hood, has had its own share of problems with this sort of thing.

It was the site of the Luby's massacre back in 1991, where a shooter drove his pickup truck into a restaurant and then started shooting, killing 23 and wounding 20.

Another thing is, has this guy even been deployed before ? I am not seeing it anywhere if he has and if not that kind of cuts down on the whole PTSD discussion.

[opie's twisted balls]

Another thing is, has this guy even been deployed before ? I am not seeing it anywhere if he has and if not that kind of cuts down on the whole PTSD discussion.
There was just a segment on CNN where that was brought up by one of Larry King's guests. The former JAG officer raised the point that Hasan hadn't previously been deployed and as a result to use the PTSD argument for the attack was basically bullshit. He also rather controversially questioned whether Hasan's islamic faith had anything to do with his actions today. Another guest (Shoshana Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshana_Johnson)) pretty much snapped and came back with "oh no you di'int".

[~Katja~]

even if he hasn't been deployed, he worked as a psychiatrist and I am sure he had his fair share of ptsd patients come through

[Furtherman]

like the dc snipers
moslems too

just a horrible coincidence
at least that's what the
govt. said

same at Ft. Hood
just an unfortunate coincidence

Moslems? I knew you were one of the Stooges.

[Judge Smails]

What are the odds that the word "savage" will be used when O&A discuss this tomorrow?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_51a1h8EmGb8/SpRJTxXkcQI/AAAAAAAABa4/k7ziHWDJ79E/s320/magic+8+ball.jpg

[Dude!]

Moslems? I knew you were one of the Stooges.

wow...people are grieving
and you tell stooges jokes

typical

[Tenbatsuzen]

even if he hasn't been deployed, he worked as a psychiatrist and I am sure he had his fair share of ptsd patients come through

Are you seriously suggesting he got PTSD through osmosis or something?

[TheMojoPin]

Another thing is, has this guy even been deployed before ? I am not seeing it anywhere if he has and if not that kind of cuts down on the whole PTSD discussion.

CNN is reporting that he was scheduled to be deployed and apparently that wasn't sitting well with him:

Hasan was scheduled to be deployed to Iraq "and appeared to be upset about that," Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, said.

[opie's twisted balls]

What are the odds that the word "savage" will be used when O&A discuss this tomorrow?
Can you think of a better term to describe that cult (aka islam)?

[TheMojoPin]

Can you think of a better term to describe that cult (aka islam)?

Awwww, how cute.

[Dude!]

Awwww, how cute.

yes, it is an impossibility
that acts of this nature
could in any way be associated
with islam

people should not even
think such things

[TheMojoPin]

yes, it is an impossibility
that acts of this nature
could in any way be associated
with islam

people should not even
think such things

I never said that.

If it turns out this guys was doing this for "religious" reasons, fuck him. Fuck him anyway, but I have nothing but spite for extremist Muslims, just as I feel towards extremists of any type. That said, I have zero reason to feel that way towards all the Muslims that don't believe in this shit and don't act this way. There's no logical reason for me to hate or fear all Muslims because of Islamic terrorists.

[~Katja~]

Are you seriously suggesting he got PTSD through osmosis or something?
that's not what I was suggesting.


Reardless, just heard that he was on the radar for internet postings about suicide bombings about 7 months ago, I am sure there is more to be uncovered about this loon.

[weekapaugjz]

that's not what I was suggesting.


Reardless, just heard that he was on the radar for internet postings about suicide bombings about 7 months ago, I am sure there is more to be uncovered about this loon.

what were you suggesting with that post then?

[~Katja~]

what were you suggesting with that post then?
I am suggesting that at this point none of us have enough real information on the guy and his situation to form a proper opinion or judge him and his motives.

The only thing that is clear is that the situation was tragic and innocent people died and he will have to take full responsibility for it.

[weekapaugjz]

I am suggesting that at this point none of us have enough real information on the guy and his situation to form a proper opinion or judge him and his motives.

The only thing that is clear is that the situation was tragic and innocent people died and he will have to take full responsibility for it.

that post sure seemed to have an opinion behind it.

[Dude!]

that post sure seemed to have an opinion behind it.

it did indeed

there is some back-peddling
going on

[~Katja~]

that post sure seemed to have an opinion behind it.
it didn't

[deliciousV]

Can you think of a better term to describe that cult (aka islam)?

Nope, fucking savages!

[weekapaugjz]

it didn't

could you please explain to me the purpose of that post then. i am really failing to see how it wasn't implying something about him being affected by working with people with PTSD.

[Dude!]

could you please explain to me the purpose of that post then. i am really failing to see how it wasn't implying something about him being affected by working with people with PTSD.

she's gonna pretend she's not
http://www.ronfez.net/forums/images/skins/rf_blue/statusicon/user_online.gif

[TheMojoPin]

Maybe she believes in empaths. Or maybe that he has mutant telepathic powers like Professor X. He IS bald.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Maybe she believes in empaths. Or maybe that he has mutant telepathic powers like Professor X. He IS bald.

If he had Professor X's powers, he wouldn't need to pull the trigger himself. See: Captain Winfield, Star Trek 2.

[joeyballsack]

Hasan was a US-born Army psychiatrist who had never deployed to a war zone but was due to deploy to Iraq soon. Numerous reports suggest that he repeatedly said he did not want to deploy to Iraq and held strident views about US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/11/05/what-is-known-about-nidal-malik-hasan-and-fort-hood-shooting/

So no prior deployments to blame PTSD on.

[keithy_19]

I never said that.

If it turns out this guys was doing this for "religious" reasons, fuck him. Fuck him anyway, but I have nothing but spite for extremist Muslims, just as I feel towards extremists of any type. That said, I have zero reason to feel that way towards all the Muslims that don't believe in this shit and don't act this way. There's no logical reason for me to hate or fear all Muslims because of Islamic terrorists.

Thank you.

I know Muslims who actually pray for me. Let me tell you, they must be praying for me to die because I'm an infidel...

Not at all. Extremists are awful no matter where they come from.

[PapaBear]

Extremists are awful no matter where they come from.
True.

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050405/050405_rudolph_vmed_8p.widec.jpg

[A.J.]

It's true. Guys from Virginia are known for this sort of thing.

Hey, just because I'm quiet and keep to myself doesn't mean anything.

[A.J.]

If he had Professor X's powers, he wouldn't need to pull the trigger himself. See: Captain Winfield, Star Trek 2.

That Ceti eel was gnawing at his brain!

[Dude!]

reports this morning that Hasan
shouted "Allah Akbar" before
he began his terrorist rampage

this just cannot be
he probably said "Lala Clark Bar"
and racist people just jumped to conclusions

[Ponyboy]

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/11/05/what-is-known-about-nidal-malik-hasan-and-fort-hood-shooting/

So no prior deployments to blame PTSD on.

Not by a long shot am I defending this guy, but combat exposure is not the only way to develop PTSD..any extremely traumatic experience can trigger it..childhood, accidents, witnessing a horrifing scene, etc.

[nate1000]

I am disgusted by the amount of wishy-washy douchbaginess in this thread. Every sign has pointed to this attack being connected to this scumbag's religion, but to voice the opinion is somehow taboo.

This fucking savage mowed down thirty of our soldiers on our soil and we are the ones who need to walk on eggshells? Enough with the PC hand-ringing.

I need to go take a shower. Fucking gross, people.

[Ponyboy]

Thanks, Nate, for saying what alot of us were afraid to say..there are certain mods here who will ban you in a minute for being "racist" (their definition...not mine)

[EliSnow]

Thanks, Nate, for saying what alot of us were afraid to say..there are certain mods here who will ban you in a minute for being "racist" (their definition...not mine)

Where in this thread did any mod say that?

And when has any mod done such a banning?

[opie's twisted balls]

I am disgusted by the amount of wishy-washy douchbaginess in this thread. Every sign has pointed to this attack being connected to this scumbag's religion, but to voice the opinion is somehow taboo.

This fucking savage mowed down thirty of our soldiers on our soil and we are the ones who need to walk on eggshells? Enough with the PC hand-ringing.
I don't want to hijack this thread or detract from the pain the family's of the 13 dead must be in today but the cold hard reality is that islam, despite almost a quarter of the planet being followers, is treated with kid gloves. Its acceptable to hack on catholic priests for all being pedophiles, that jews are cheap and that followers of Fred Phelps are raging lunatics (OK, that one happens to be difficult to dispute against) but the second islam is raised in anything other then a completely positive light accusations of racism or xenophobia are quickly thrown out.

While I don't agree with everything Pat Condell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Condell) says in his youtube vlogs IMO he knocks it out of the park with his "the trouble with islam" post......enjoy:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HhN6CG1zCRc&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HhN6CG1zCRc&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[CurseoftheBambi]

I am disgusted by the amount of wishy-washy douchbaginess in this thread. Every sign has pointed to this attack being connected to this scumbag's religion, but to voice the opinion is somehow taboo.

This fucking savage mowed down thirty of our soldiers on our soil and we are the ones who need to walk on eggshells? Enough with the PC hand-ringing.:dry:just wondering what would you have called him had he been joe-average white guy?

call him an asshole call him a lot of things...but to make this thing about him being muslim alone makes you look like the douche not him cause we dont know if there's a connection with him and terroists who are the savages other than religion.

[Dude!]

:dry:just wondering what would you have called him had he been joe-average white guy?

he wasn't
and there is a pattern here
don't be a fool

[nate1000]

:dry:just wondering what would you have called him had he been joe-average white guy?

call him an asshole call him a lot of things...but to make this thing about him being muslim alone makes you look like the douche not him cause we dont know if there's a connection with him and terroists who are the savages other than religion.

????

this is type of response I just cannot get my head around

1. he is not a joe average white guy, so we don't need to speculate on what I would have called him.

2. He is a devout muslim who chanted Allahu Akbar while mowing down american servicemen on an army base. If his actions do not connect him to terrorism, I don't know what would.

[EliSnow]

????

this is type of response I just cannot get my head around

1. he is not a joe average white guy, so we don't need to speculate on what I would have called him.

2. He is a devout muslim who chanted Allahu Akbar while mowing down american servicemen on an army base. If his actions do not connect him to terrorism, I don't know what would.

His point isn't that complex to get your head around.

The question goes to whether the term savage was used because he was a a) killer, b) an extremist Muslim, or c) just a Muslim.

[Dude!]

His point isn't that complex to get your head around.

The question goes to whether the term savage was used because he was a a) killer, b) an extremist Muslim, or c) just a Muslim.


those three terms may be
interchangeable

[opie's twisted balls]

:dry:just wondering what would you have called him had he been joe-average white guy?
Had religion not been a motivator for his actions I would have called him a pile of shit. However, that his religion would appeared to have played a significant roll then it becomes fair game for discussion and criticism:

Soldiers who witnessed the rampage reported that the gunman shouted "Allahu Akbar!" — an Arabic phrase for "God is great!" — before opening fire, said Lt. Gen. Robert Cone, the base commander. He said officials had not yet confirmed that Hasan made the comment before the shooting spree.
(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091106/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting)


but to make this thing about him being muslim alone makes you look like the douche
Really?? He being muslim is the 10,000lb elephant in the room. Everyone thinks it. Why? Because of a demonstrable track record of muslims being responsible for some of the most heinous attacks & killings in modern history.

[EliSnow]

those three terms may be
interchangeable

That doesn't answer the question. The shooter sounds like he fits all three categories, but that wasn't the question. The question is whether he is a savage because of one of those categories.

Unless you believe that all Muslims are extremists and killers.

[EliSnow]

Really?? He being muslim is the 10,000lb elephant in the room. Everyone thinks it. Why? Because of a demonstrable track record of muslims being responsible for some of the most heinous attacks & killings in modern history.

Extremist muslims have been involved in atacks and killings, but we could also point to christians and europeans involved in such killings.

I'd say the most heinous killings in modern history were genocies in Africa, the Holocaust in WWII, pogroms against Jews in Russia, and many other things.

Muslims don't have a monopoly on heinous attacks and killings in the last century.

[Dude!]

Had religion not been a motivator for his actions I would have called him a pile of shit. However, that his religion would appeared to have played a significant roll then it becomes fair game for discussion and criticism:


(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091106/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting)



Really?? He being muslim is the 10,000lb elephant in the room. Everyone thinks it. Why? Because of a demonstrable track record of muslims being responsible for some of the most heinous attacks & killings in modern history.

it is just amazing how
brainwashed some people are
by political correctness

imagine if it was 1943
and a 1st generation
'german american' did this
i am sure people wouldn't
have noticed that fact

FDR and Truman
would not have tolerated
this self-destructive foolishness

[opie's twisted balls]

Because of a demonstrable track record of muslims being responsible for some of the most heinous attacks & killings in modern history.
I guess I should have been more clear, modern as in current as in the past 50 years.


Muslims don't have a monopoly on heinous attacks and killings in the last century.
No they don't but the difference between the what the nazis or hutu's were responsible for is that their atrocities were of a secular nature. That islam has so many intrinsic rules and reasons to fight against non-believers is deeply troubling. The other issue is that unlike other major religions islam is pervasive in all elements of a devout followers life. Everything including clothing, diet, education, entertainment, civil and criminal laws, social practices are all dictated and up for interpretation by assorted imams.

[opie's twisted balls]

imagine if it was 1943
and a 1st generation
'german american' did this
i am sure people wouldn't
have noticed that fact

FDR and Truman
would not have tolerated
this self-destructive foolishness
No this bullshit behavior wouldn't have been tolerated because there was still something called common sense.

[EliSnow]

I guess I should have been more clear, modern as in current as in the past 50 years.

That is part of modern history, but in the history of man, modern history is greater than just the last 50 years.



No they don't but the difference between the what the nazis or hutu's were responsible for is that their atrocities were of a secular nature. That islam has so many intrinsic rules and reasons to fight against non-believers should be troubling. The other issue is that unlike other major religions islam is pervasive in all elements of a devout followers life. Everything including clothing, diet, education, entertainment, civil and criminal laws, social practices are all dictated and up for interpretation by assorted imams.

Christinanity has teachings that have been perverted to justify mass killing as well.

The use of Islam to justify the attacks that have been made have been interpretations of the religion, but many muslims do not subscribe to those interpretations.

And not every Muslim country or muslim have their rules dictated by imams.

[TheMojoPin]

Who said we can't talk about him being Muslim? Who said that it's impossible that his religion contrinbuted to or was THE cause that did this? It's looking pretty obvious that this guy convinced himself that he was doing this for religious reasons.

I pointed out the difference between having no tolerance of extremist Muslims and Muslims as a whole. There's zero reason for me to "hate" or fear Islam itself because of assholes like this. It certainly makes me hate extremist Muslims, but why am I supposed to apply that to all the Muslims who don't do these things and don't live by extremist or fanatical orthodoxies? What, because of things like this I'm supposed to turn on anyone I know who is Islamic? That's nuts. This guy chose to do what he did. Islam didn't "make" him do it. He used Islam to justify his actions to himself and, in his eyes, the world. The people who do that are awful, awful human beings, and unfortunately there are quite a few others of his ilk out there, but there's far more people who are of the various Islamic faiths who have nothing do with this and will never do anything like this and have no desire to do so. Why should I live in fear like a coward of millions of people I have nothing to to worry about over assholes like this?

[TheMojoPin]

No this bullshit behavior wouldn't have been tolerated because there was still something called common sense.

So what would "not tolerating" this with "common sense" entail?

[nate1000]

A man firing rounds into american soldiers while chanting to his god is a savage.

That is the reason I called him a savage.

[foodcourtdruide]

it is just amazing how
brainwashed some people are
by political correctness



It's amazing to me how some people think people who do not agree with them are brainwashed.

[foodcourtdruide]

he wasn't
and there is a pattern here
don't be a fool

What is the pattern?

[TheMojoPin]

A man firing rounds into american soldiers while chanting to his god is a savage.

That is the reason I called him a savage.

Someone who randomly shoots a bunch of people for whatever reason is horrible. You're not going to get an argument there.

[foodcourtdruide]

Maybe it's just a semantics thing? I think there's a huge difference between "muslim" and "muslim extremist" that doesn't seem to get respected.

Would you say James von Brunn and Scott Roeder were "conservatives" or "right-wing extremists"? Wouldn't conservatives on this board take issue with it if we lumped those monsters in with their idiologies?

[Dude!]

What is the pattern?

Date Country City/State Killed Injured Description
4/14/1972 USA New York, NY 1 3 Ten members of a local mosque phone in a false alarm and then ambush responding officers, killing one.
1/19/1973 USA Brooklyn, NY 1 1 Muslim extremists rob a sporting goods store for weapons, gunning down a police officer who responds to the alarm.
7/18/1973 USA Washington, DC 8 2 Nation of Islam members shoot seven members of a family to death in cold blood, including four children. A defendant in the case is later murdered in prison on orders from Elijah Muhammad.
10/19/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 1 Nation of Islam terrorists kidnap a couple and nearly decapitate the man, while raping and leaving the woman for dead.
10/29/1973 USA Berkeley, CA 1 0 A woman is shot repeatedly in the face by Nation of Islam terrorists.
11/25/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A grocer is killed in his store by Nation of Islam terrorists.
12/11/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A man is killed by Nation of Islam terrorists while using a phone booth.
12/13/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A woman is shot to deah on the sidewalk by Nation of Islam terrorists.
12/20/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 Nation of Islam terrorists gun down an 81-year-old janitor.
12/22/1973 USA Oakland, CA 2 0 Nation of Islam terrorist kills two people in separate attacks on the same day.
12/24/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A man is kidnapped, tortured and decapitated by Nation of Islam terrorists.
1/24/1974 USA Oakland, CA 4 1 Five vicious shooting attacks by Nation of Islam terrorists leave three people dead and one paralyzed for life. Three of the victims were women.
4/1/1974 USA Oakland, CA 1 1 A Nation of Islam terrorist shoots at two Salvation Army members, killing a man and injuring a woman.
4/16/1974 USA Ingleside, CA 1 0 A man is killed while helping a friend move by Nation of Islam terrorists.
3/9/1977 USA Washington, DC 1 1 Hanifi Muslims storm three buildings including a B'nai B'rith to hold 134 people hostage. At least two innocents were shot and one died.
7/22/1980 USA Bethesda, MD 1 0 A political dissident is shot and killed in front of his home by an Iranian agent who was an American convert to Islam.
8/31/1980 USA Savou, IL 2 0 An Iranian student guns down his next-door neighbors, a husband and wife.
1/31/1990 USA Tuscon, AZ 1 0 A Sunni cleric is assassinated in front of a Tuscon mosque after declaring that two verses of the Qur'an were invalid.
11/5/1990 USA New York City, NY 1 0 An Israeli rabbi is shot to death by a Muslim attacker at a hotel.
1/25/1993 USA Langley, VA 2 3 A Pakistani with Mujahideen ties guns down two CIA agents outside of the headquarters.
2/26/1993 USA New York, NY 6 1040 Islamic terrorists detonate a massive truck bomb under the World Trade Center, killing six people and injuring over 1,000 in an effort to collapse the towers.
3/1/1994 USA Brooklyn, NY 1 0 A Muslim fires on a vanload of Jewish boys, killing one.
3/23/1997 USA New York, NY 1 6 A Palestinian leaves an anti-Jewish suicide note behind and travels to the top of the Empire State building where he shoot seven people in a Fedayeen attack.
4/3/1997 USA Lompoc, CA 1 0 A prison guard is stabbed to death by a radical Muslim.
10/31/1999 USA Near Nantucket 217 0 An Egyptian airline pilot runs a planeload of 217 passengers into the water after uttering a Qur'anic prayer.
3/17/2000 USA Atlanta, GA 1 1 A local imam and Muslim spiritual leader guns down a deputy sheriff and injures his partner.
9/11/2001 USA Washington, DC 184 53 Nearly 200 people are killed when Islamic hijackers steer a plane full of people into the Pentagon.
9/11/2001 USA Shanksville, PA 40 0 Forty passengers are killed after Islamic radicals hijack the plane in an attempt to steer it into the U.S. Capitol building.
9/11/2001 USA New York, NY 2772 251 Islamic hijackers steer two planes packed with fuel and passengers into the World Trade Center, killing hundreds on impact and eventually killing thousands when the towers collapsed. At least 200 are seriously injured.
3/19/2002 USA Tuscon, AZ 1 0 A 60-year-old man is gunned down by Muslim snipers on a golf course.
5/27/2002 USA Denton, TX 1 0 Muslim snipers kill a man as he works in his yard.
7/4/2002 USA Los Angeles, CA 2 0 Muslim man pulls out a gun at the counter of an Israeli airline and kills two people.
9/5/2002 USA Clinton, MD 1 0 A 55-year-old pizzaria owner is shot six times in the back by Muslims at close range.
9/21/2002 USA Montgomery, AL 1 1 Muslim snipers shoot two women, killing one.
9/23/2002 USA Baton Rouge, LA 1 0 A Korean mother is shot in the back by Muslim snipers.
10/2/2002 USA Wheaton, MD 1 0 Muslim snipers gun down a program analyst in a store parking lot.
10/3/2002 USA Montgomery County, MD 5 0 Muslim snipers kill three men and two women in separate attacks over a 15-hour period.
10/9/2002 USA Manassas, VA 1 1 A man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas two days after a 13-year-old is wounded by the same team.
10/11/2002 USA Fredericksburg, VA 1 0 Another man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas.
10/14/2002 USA Arlington, VA 1 0 A woman is killed by Muslim snipers in a Home Depot parking lot.
10/22/2002 USA Aspen Hill, MD 1 0 A bus driver is killed by Muslim snipers.
8/6/2003 USA Houston, TX 1 0 After undergoing a religious revival, a Saudi college student slashes the throat of a Jewish student with a 4" butterfly knife, nearly decapitating the young man.
12/2/2003 USA Chicago, IL 1 0 A Muslim doctor deliberately allows a Jewish patient to die from an easily treatable condition.
4/13/2004 USA Raleigh, NC 1 4 A Muslim man runs down five strangers with a car.
4/15/2004 USA Scottsville, NY 1 2 In an honor killing, a Muslim father kills his wife and attacks his two daughters with a knife and hammer because he feared that they had been sexually molested.
6/16/2006 USA Baltimore, MD 1 0 A 62-year-old Jewish moviegoer is shot to death by a Muslim gunman in an unprovoked terror attack.
6/25/2006 USA Denver, CO 1 5 Saying that it was 'Allah's choice', a Muslim shoots four of his co-workers and a police officer.
7/28/2006 USA Seattle, WA 1 5 An 'angry' Muslim-American uses a young girl as hostage to enter a local Jewish center, where he shoots six women, one of whom dies.
10/6/2006 USA Louisville, KY 4 1 In an 'honor' attack, a Muslim man rapes and beats his estranged wife, leaving her for dead, then savagely murders their four children.
2/13/2007 USA Salt Lake City, UT 5 4 A Muslim immigrant goes on a shooting rampage at a mall, targeting people buying Valentine's Day cards at a gift shop and killing five.
1/1/2008 USA Irving, TX 2 0 A Muslim immigrant shoots his two daughters to death on concerns about their 'Western' lifestyle.
7/6/2008 USA Jonesboro, GA 1 0 A devout Muslim strangles his 25-year-old daughter in an honor killing.
2/12/2009 USA Buffalo, NY 1 0 The founder of a Muslim TV station beheads his wife in the hallway for seeking a divorce.
6/1/2009 USA Little Rock, AR 1 1 A Muslim with 'religious motives' shoots a local soldier to death inside a recruiting center.
11/2/2009 USA Glendale, AZ 1 1 A woman dies from injuries suffered when her father runs her down with a car for being too 'Westernized.' (10-20-09)
11/5/2009 USA Ft. Hood, TX 13 31 A Muslim psychiatrist guns down thirteen unarmed soldiers while yelling praises to Allah.

any more dumb questions?

[foodcourtdruide]

any more dumb questions?

Hey, thanks for being totally disrespectful. Its always helpful when the people that are not intelligent or grown-up enough to debate senbsitive topics point themselves out.

[angrymissy]

any more dumb questions?

Now give me a list of people killed by Christians
And killed by Jews

and so on

[Ponyboy]

Where in this thread did any mod say that?

And when has any mod done such a banning?

Read the FAQ

[A.J.]

3/9/1977 USA Washington, DC 1 1 Hanifi Muslims storm three buildings including a B'nai B'rith to hold 134 people hostage. At least two innocents were shot and one died.

any more dumb questions?

Thankfully, future Mayor-for-Life Barry was only slightly injured.

[mikeyboy]

any more dumb questions?

You do realize that under 60 incidents over a 37 year period is statistically insignificant, especially when a big chunk of those incidents can be attributed to 3 groups (Oakland, 9/11, DC sniper), right?

[Dude!]

Now give me a list of people killed by Christians
And killed by Jews

and so on

find your own list
i don't work for you

i sure hope you are not a jew
cause jewish women
are number 1 on the islamic hit list

if you happen to be a lesbo too
you will go straight to the top of the list

honestly, what is wrong with you

[Furtherman]

Anyone who feels this guy solely went on a shooting spree because of his religion, please clink on this link over at Fox News:

Ft. Hood: The Largest 'Terror Act' Since 9/11? (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/11/06/walid-phares-ft-hood-murder-terror-attack/)

The main question we should be asking is when did Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan become radicalized and who indoctrinated him? Everything else will fall in place once we have these answers.

[A.J.]

if you happen to be a lesbo too
you will go straight to the top of the list

If you ever met FMJeff and beheld his gloriousness, you'd know that would be impossible.

[EliSnow]

Read the FAQ

I'm familiar with the FAQ.

Now answer the question: when did any "mod" ban someone for such a thing?

The answer is they haven't, which is demonstrated by the fact that no on in this thread has been banned and people have discussed how the shooter was a muslim, etc.

[A.J.]

Anyone who feels this guy solely went on a shooting spree because of his religion, please clink on this link over at Fox News:

Ft. Hood: The Largest 'Terror Act' Since 9/11? (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/11/06/walid-phares-ft-hood-murder-terror-attack/)

No love for the Virginia Tech shootings?

[foodcourtdruide]

You do realize that under 60 incidents over a 37 year period is statistically insignificant, especially when a big chunk of those incidents can be attributed to 3 groups (Oakland, 9/11, DC sniper), right?

What a dumb completey logical and rational question.

[sr71blackbird]

Would a Major serve in a combat position if deployed? If not, why was this guy so against being deployed?

[A.J.]

Would a Major serve in a combat position if deployed? If not, why was this guy so against being deployed?

If Sidney Freeman could go to Korea, this guy could go to Iraq.

[EliSnow]

honestly, what is wrong with you

Knock it off.

She was making a point about the evidence for your "pattern." Stop asserting that something is wrong with someone because they disagree with you.

[angrymissy]

find your own list
i don't work for you

i sure hope you are not a jew
cause jewish women
are number 1 on the islamic hit list

if you happen to be a lesbo too
you will go straight to the top of the list

honestly, what is wrong with you

I have worked and lived with Muslim people in the past and it makes me sick to see them all generalized as terrorists by ignorant people.

That's what's "wrong" with me.

He is nutjob... there are Christian nutjobs too. You posted a list of 60 something incidents in the past 30 years. You could make a similar list with Christian nutjobs and it would be probably a lot larger if you put every person on there that murdered someone and identified themselves as a "Christian".

Are all Christians terrorists because Eric Rudolph is a Christian?

No - they are religious extremists.

[Furtherman]

No love for the Virginia Tech shootings?

That nut wasn't Muslim. He was a Christian! Who even wrote in his suicide note... "Thanks to you I died like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and defenseless people."

Where is the outrage!?

:blink:

[Dude!]

he was asian
that is where the outrage
should be directed

[foodcourtdruide]

Would a Major serve in a combat position if deployed? If not, why was this guy so against being deployed?

There are so many questions like this. Another one, why join the military only to later do something like this? I guess minds that can't comprehend murdering innocent people.

[Furtherman]

You could make a similar list with Christian nutjobs.

And they're would be more Christian murderers. We're a christian nation after all, right?

[A.J.]

We're a christian nation after all, right?

Not enough to some peoples' liking.

[Furtherman]

Not enough to some peoples' liking.

They have a point. If we were all christian, nothing like this would ever happen. Ever. Forever. Infinity.

[TheMojoPin]

Read the FAQ

It's always been in the rules that we ban posters who post explicitly racist content. How is there anything wrong with that? It's something we've rarely exercised.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

That dirtbag had a literal interpretation of the Koran, To be fair look at some of the writings in the old testament especially Leviticus and the punishment for eating certain foods

There are Christian nutjobs who on occasion firebomb abortion clinics , there was one that shot That abortion Dr Tiller and thats reprehensible of course.


While not every Muslim is not a Jihadist a fair assessment is probably 10% are. Thats about 120 million people who have been brainwashed. Not all of them will conduct an act of terrorism but just the numbers alone who sympathize with that behavior is alarming Look at the trend of terrorist attacks over the last 30 years for example While there were a lot of carbombs going off in Northern Ireland, There has been an overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks in the name of Allah

[TheMojoPin]

any more dumb questions?

The Nation of Islam being lumped in there is a pretty big stretch.

[TheMojoPin]

While not every Muslim is not a Jihadist a fair assessment is probably 10% are. Thats about 120 million people who have been brainwashed.

Wait, how is that "fair?" It's a total assumption on your part.

And this seems to display a basic misunderstanding of a "jihadist" on your part. I assume you actually mean a "mujahid," which is someone who is actively engaged in a "holy war." You really think there are 120 million mujahideen actively engaging in or trying to engage in religious violence?

Let me also put it this way: do you think Islam "made" this guy do what he did? Do you think there's no chance he would have snapped if he wasn't a Muslim?

[foodcourtdruide]

The Nation of Islam being lumped in there is a pretty big stretch.

I'm surprised he didn't include Obama's parking tickets.

[Furtherman]

While not every Muslim is not a Jihadist a fair assessment is probably 10% are.

Do you know how many Muslims there are in the world? If 10% wanted to kill people, then we'd really be in trouble.

That is so far from a fair assessment, we're talking light-years far away.

[foodcourtdruide]

Wait, how is that "fair?" It's a total assumption on your part.

I was thinking the same thing, what makes you come to that conclusion WF? And 80's wrestling gimmicks don't count.

[EliSnow]

It's always been in the rules that we ban posters who post explicitly racist content. How is there anything wrong with that? It's something we've rarely exercised.

Exactly. Ponyboy's assertion is that "certain mods" have banned people for engaging in racist behavior that really wasn't such behavior. So he's accusing these mods of using their powers to enforce PC.

But he hasn't shown when that has happened.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Wait, how is that "fair?" It's a total assumption on your part.

There are about 1.2 Billion Muslims in the world, Im using approximate numbers. Im not going to conduct a census . I made an assessment Im not going to go around the world and conduct a census of Muslims

[TheMojoPin]

There are about 1.2 Billion Muslims in the world, Im using approximate numbers. Im not going to conduct a census . I made an assessment Im not going to go around the world and conduct a census of Muslims

That's a pretty ridiculous assumption on your part. 120 million is a gigantic group of people.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I was thinking the same thing, what makes you come to that conclusion WF? And 80's wrestling gimmicks don't count.

If you want to debate thats fine, If it makes you feel better about critiqing screennames then go for it, Read my comments, It wasnt concrete numbers

[foodcourtdruide]

If you want to debate thats fine, If it makes you feel better about critiqing screennames then go for it, Read my comments, It wasnt concrete numbers

Wow, sorry. Was just a joke. I like wrestling too.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

That's a pretty ridiculous assumption on your part. 120 million is a gigantic group of people.

10% of 1.2 billion isnt 120 million? Are you doing different math than I am?

[TheMojoPin]

10% of 1.2 billion isnt 120 million? Are you doing different math than I am?

I'm not taking issue with your math. I'm taking issue with you pulling the 120 million figure out of thin air with absolutely no basis in anything.

[mikeyboy]

I think it's a fair assessment that Mojo rapes puppies.

This is fun!

[Dude!]

I'm surprised he didn't include Obama's parking tickets.

i would have
but there were so many tickets
under the name 'Hussein'
i couldn't tell if they were Barack's
or Saddam's

[TheMojoPin]

Are you gonna put together a list of American workplace shootings after today's events, too?

FDR and Truman wouldn't have taken all of this flimflammery!

[EliSnow]

i would have
but there were so many tickets
under the name 'Hussein'
i couldn't tell if they were Barack's
or Saddam's

Because a common filing system used by police is by middle name.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I'm not taking issue with your math. I'm taking issue with you pulling the 120 million figure out of thin air with absolutely no basis in anything.

OK so maybe It could be more then? I used 10% as an estimate, but this article says even more. Im not a statistician thats Why I used estimate and assessment and not concrete numbers

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/65537

Who knows maybe its 10% maybe 7% Even if its 5% thats still 60 million people

[WRESTLINGFAN]

i would have
but there were so many tickets
under the name 'Hussein'
i couldn't tell if they were Barack's
or Saddam's

Or the late King Hussein of Jordan

[Dude!]

FDR and Truman wouldn't have taken all of this flimflammery!

you got that right
they'd have your sorry ass hauled off to
one of those jap resettlement camps

[TheMojoPin]

you got that right
they'd have your sorry ass hauled off to
one of those jap resettlement camps

But I'm not Japanese.

[angrymissy]

OK so maybe It could be more then? I used 10% as an estimate, but this article says even more. Im not a statistician thats Why I used estimate and assessment and not concrete numbers

Who knows maybe its 10% maybe 7% Even if its 5% thats still 60 million people

What article, exactly, are you reading?

[A.J.]

But I'm not Japanese.

I think I'm turning Japanese. I really think so.

[nate1000]

But I'm not Japanese.

Racist dog fucker

[Dude!]

But I'm not Japanese.

doesn't matter
it would have been necessary
to isolate and guard you

[TheMojoPin]

OK so maybe It could be more then? I used 10% as an estimate, but this article says even more. Im not a statistician thats Why I used estimate and assessment and not concrete numbers

Who knows maybe its 10% maybe 7% Even if its 5% thats still 60 million people

Yeah, "if." You're just throwing out random figures without any clue as to which one is accurate. If you're talking people actually engaged in "holy war" I highly doubt the number is close to even just 1%.

[TheMojoPin]

doesn't matter
it would have been necessary
to isolate and guard you

I'm wild and free, baby.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What article, exactly, are you reading?

My bad forgot to copy and paste I just put the link in my previous post

[mikeyboy]

I'm wild and free, baby.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rRDS9AwDF6g&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rRDS9AwDF6g&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yeah, "if." You're just throwing out random figures without any clue as to which one is accurate. If you're talking people actually engaged in "holy war" I highly doubt the number is close to even just 1%.

I originally pointed out while 10% may not participate in Jihad just the fact that they condone that behavior is alarming

Since this is a conflict with no country per se but more of an idealogy if 1% were willing to fight for Allah thats roughly 1.2 million people. Thats like fighting 1/5th of Chinas Army when it comes down to a numbers sense

[Dude!]

I originally pointed out while 10% may not participate in Jihad just the fact that they condone that behavior is alarming

Since this is a conflict with no country per se but more of an idealogy if 1% were willing to fight for Allah thats roughly 1.2 million people. Thats like fighting 1/5th of Chinas Army when it comes down to a numbers sense

it is actually 44%

you have no need to defend
or revise your numbers

[angrymissy]

The website article claiming those numbers:

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/pics/logo_byline.gif

And it's a BIGGG Stretch... did you read the whole article and how he came to get that %?

[underdog]

I love how people constantly trash Islam and Muslims, and at the same time complain that we can't trash Islam. It's hilarious.

[TheMojoPin]

I originally pointed out while 10% may not participate in Jihad just the fact that they condone that behavior is alarming

Since this is a conflict with no country per se but more of an idealogy if 1% were willing to fight for Allah thats roughly 1.2 million people. Thats like fighting 1/5th of Chinas Army when it comes down to a numbers sense

Yeah, which is why it's so unlikely that it's even just 1%.

[nate1000]

One of the brutal things about this story is the effect this must be having on the soldiers. My wife's sister is stationed at Ft. Hood. She just spent 18 months ducking in Mosul only to have to deal with this when rotating stateside. At least in Mosul, they were carrying their shit around with them. Back on base, they are just about defenseless. It has to be rough to lose your sense of security once you get back home.

[Dude!]

I love how people constantly trash Islam and Muslims, and at the same time complain that we can't trash Islam. It's hilarious.

moslems are the new
fat people

[TheMojoPin]

One of the brutal things about this story is the effect this must be having on the soldiers. My wife's sister is stationed at Ft. Hood. She just spent 18 months ducking in Mosul only to have to deal with this when rotating stateside. At least in Mosul, they were carrying their shit around with them. Back on base, they are just about defenseless. It has to be rough to lose your sense of security once you get back home.

It just piggybacks on what was being discussed when this was first reported: far too little is being done to help our soldiers deal with the stress of combat experiences. Something like this is only going to compound that even more, yet what will change?

[Furtherman]

moslems are the new
fat people


http://assets.gearlive.com/filmcrunch/blogimages/stooges_curly.jpg

Moslems!?

Nynuk Nyunk Nyunk!

[Dude!]

http://assets.gearlive.com/filmcrunch/blogimages/stooges_curly.jpg

Moslems!?

Nynuk Nyunk Nyunk!

you are really pathetic
lots of people died yesterday
and you just joke around

you did the same in the thread
about the drunk woman who
killed her kids in the car accident

tacky hack

[Furtherman]

Dude, you would even insult Jezo's intelligence if you thought for a second you would ever be capable of taking the high road on an actual discussion. You're a terror stooge.

[EliSnow]

you are really pathetic
lots of people died yesterday
and you just joke around

you did the same in the thread
about the drunk woman who
killed her kids in the car accident

tacky hack

He's making fun of you, not the tragic events.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://assets.gearlive.com/filmcrunch/blogimages/stooges_curly.jpg

Moslems!?

Nynuk Nyunk Nyunk!

Curly Fine is a prime target Hes one of those dirty infidels

[Dude!]

Dude, you would even insult Jezo's intelligence if you thought for a second you would ever be capable of taking the high road on an actual discussion. You're a terror stooge.

you feign indignation
and then make fun of
awful situations

lip-service liberal

[A.J.]

Curly Howard is a prime target Hes one of those dirty infidels

Fixed that for you.

[Furtherman]

He's making fun of you, not the tragic events.

Shhhhhh! Don't confuse him!


you feign indignation
and then make fun of
awful situations

I dare you to post an example.

[opie's twisted balls]

So what would "not tolerating" this with "common sense" entail?
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_You_Ride_Alone_You_Ride_With_Bin_Laden:_What_ the_Government_Should_Be_Telling_Us_to_Help_Fight_ the_War_on_Terrorism

Simply put the United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia have become countries where special interest groups hold more sway then the majority and we've lost the ideals of the collective good and self-sacrifice to improve the situation for everyone. That directly relates to the notion we'd even entertain discuss something like the implementation of sharia law.


Someone who randomly shoots a bunch of people for whatever reason is horrible. You're not going to get an argument there.
The events at Ft. Hood yesterday were by no means random.


Now give me a list of people killed by Christians
And killed by Jews

and so on
There's no doubt that all religions have their share of blood on their hands. However, other then islam there's no contemporary situation where in the name of someone's particular god thousands have been systematically murdered or terrorized.


I have worked and lived with Muslim people in the past and it makes me sick to see them all generalized as terrorists by ignorant people.
I've worked with muslims, I have muslim friends so I take offence to be referred to as "ignorant". I have absolutely no issue with different cultures or religions and as a first generation Canadian have a clear understanding of how important immigration can be. However, if you've made the decision to immigrate to another country there is an implicit obligation that when you make that move you're going to actively embrace the existing laws, social norms and respect its citizens.


Are all Christians terrorists because Eric Rudolph is a Christian?
Of course not. The problem isn't with muslims as individuals, the problem is with the pervasive nature of hate within the islamic doctrine.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Statement-on-Muslims.htm


No - they are religious extremists.
ANY extremism, religious or secular, is unhealthy. I was raised catholic and know how out of control some of the hardcore dogans can be. Another group that scares the poop out of me are the fervent trekkies.

[A.J.]

Another group that scares the poop out of me are the fervent trekkies.

Those people are assholes.

[Ponyboy]

Exactly. Ponyboy's assertion is that "certain mods" have banned people for engaging in racist behavior that really wasn't such behavior. So he's accusing these mods of using their powers to enforce PC.

But he hasn't shown when that has happened.

Yup!

[angrymissy]

There's no doubt that all religions have their share of blood on their hands. However, other then islam there's no contemporary situation where in the name of someone's particular god thousands have been systematically murdered or terrorized.

The list he provided were not specifically terrorist acts in the name of Islam, it was just a list of Muslim people who murdered other people. You could make a similar list, just as long for Christians, Jews, Atheists, whatever


I've worked with muslims, I have muslim friends so I take offence to be referred to as "ignorant". I have absolutely no issue with different cultures or religions and as a first generation Canadian have a clear understanding of how important immigration can be. However, if you've made the decision to immigrate to another country there is an implicit obligation that when you make that move you're going to actively embrace the existing laws, social norms and respect its citizens.

Go back and reread what I wrote and then tell me if you fall under the group of people I define as ignorant.

Of course not. The problem isn't with muslims as individuals, the problem is with the pervasive nature of hate within the islamic doctrine.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Statement-on-Muslims.htm


And I can link you to an anti-Christan site that will show you the Bible is just as, or even more hateful.

Hence why I don't agree with religion whatsoever.

ANY extremism, religious or secular, is unhealthy. I was raised catholic and know how out of control some of the hardcore dogans can be. Another group that scares the poop out of me are the fervent trekkies.

I agree. But people on this thread have made assumptions about Muslims as a whole based on the extremists.

[EliSnow]

Yup!

At least you acknowledge it..

[Ponyboy]

At least you acknowledge it..

What?

[EliSnow]

What?

You said "Yup" (an acknowledgement) to my statement you could not not cite a circumstance where a mod banned someone for non-racist discussion under the pretext that such posts were racist.

[Ponyboy]

You said "Yup" (an acknowledgement) to my statement you could not not cite a circumstance where a mod banned someone for non-racist discussion under the pretext that such posts were racist.

When?

[EliSnow]

When?

A couple of posts ago. The post I quoted.Post #169. (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2566432&postcount=169)

[Ponyboy]

A couple of posts ago. The post I quoted.Post #169. (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2566432&postcount=169)

How?

[EliSnow]

How?

I provided the answer to that question in post #173.

[Ponyboy]

I provided the answer to that question in post #173.

Nope!

[EliSnow]

Nope!

That's not what your post said.

[opie's twisted balls]

And I can link you to an anti-Christan site that will show you the Bible is just as, or even more hateful.
No, you can't provide a link to that sort of site since its night and day comparing the bible to the koran

http://www.dianedew.com/islam.htm#6

[Ponyboy]

That's not what your post said.

Why?

[mikeyboy]

This is going well.

[EliSnow]

This is going well.

I've had similar conversations with my daughters.

[angrymissy]

No, you can't provide a link to that sort of site since its night and day comparing the bible to the koran

http://www.dianedew.com/islam.htm#6

See that's a biased site cherry picking to support their point, just like the one I'm going to post below is doing against the bible:

Over a thousand violent cited bible snippets here:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/BibleViolence.htm

There's plenty of other sites where you can read thousands upon thousands of horrible things from the bible.

[angrymissy]

Oh, and here is the site I was initially thinking of when I talking about comparing the Bible and Quran. Interesting reading, and I agree with this statement:

A good argument could be made that either book is the most violent and cruel book ever written. The award would go to one or the other, for neither has any close competitors.

It is frightening to think that more than half of the world's population believes in one or the other.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html

[TheMojoPin]

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_You_Ride_Alone_You_Ride_With_Bin_Laden:_What_ the_Government_Should_Be_Telling_Us_to_Help_Fight_ the_War_on_Terrorism

Simply put the United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia have become countries where special interest groups hold more sway then the majority and we've lost the ideals of the collective good and self-sacrifice to improve the situation for everyone. That directly relates to the notion we'd even entertain discuss something like the implementation of sharia law.

Special interest groups do not hold more "sway" than the majority here. That's a gigantic generalization based out of alarmist rhetoric that holds no basis in reality. Minorities getting scraps of concessions doesn't somehow magically wrest the power from the majority. Nobody was seriously talking about implementing widespread Sharia law: the discussions primarily centered around the idea of allowing aspects of it to be used in Muslim communities in regards to things like minor interpersonal financial and propery disputes with the idea that any "local" rulings or decisions would not actually supersede the actual law. Nobody was ever seirously considering implementing actual old school Sharia law.

The events at Ft. Hood yesterday were by no means random.

How can you say this definitively? If this was the result of a sick person acting of their own accord, how is it all that different than the people that say they did something awful because of something they saw in a movie? Are you saying that you think this occured only because of his Islamic faith and that if he wasn't a Muslim there's no way this would have happened?

There's no doubt that all religions have their share of blood on their hands. However, other then islam there's no contemporary situation where in the name of someone's particular god thousands have been systematically murdered or terrorized.

Which is true, but it's still intellectually dishonest to imply or extrapolate from that statement that we should then in turn fear, hate or distrust all or a majority of Muslims. Despite the laundry list of attacks it's still a very tiny relative few responsible for such actions. Nobody is saying we're not supposed to "hate" the extremists: some of us are just pointing out the difference between that and hating a gigantic group of people for the actions and rhetoric of a relative few. I'm not saying you're preaching such things, but you seem to be at least condoning this train of thought from others.

I've worked with muslims, I have muslim friends so I take offence to be referred to as "ignorant". I have absolutely no issue with different cultures or religions and as a first generation Canadian have a clear understanding of how important immigration can be. However, if you've made the decision to immigrate to another country there is an implicit obligation that when you make that move you're going to actively embrace the existing laws, social norms and respect its citizens.

Of course not. The problem isn't with muslims as individuals, the problem is with the pervasive nature of hate within the islamic doctrine.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Statement-on-Muslims.htm

In some cases, yes. There are many different sects and variations of Islam. Most of the true Islamic hatemongers also have hate for other Muslims who do not share their particular tenets. Besides, for those that that do take the teachings of Islamic manner, what about the vast majoroty who do not and never have and never will engage in such activites or rhetoric? Why should we heap scorn and fear on the majority for the actions of the minority?

ANY extremism, religious or secular, is unhealthy. I was raised catholic and know how out of control some of the hardcore dogans can be. Another group that scares the poop out of me are the fervent trekkies.

They'll kill you for not calling them "Trekkers."

It sounds like ultimately we're not too far off in our opinions. I have no love for people that twist the teachings of Islam to fit their extremist agendas. Nobody feels that here. Some of us are simply arguing against the idea that events like the shooting at Fort Hood means we should fear and hate Muslims in general. As you know from your own experiences, that's simply not a reasonable standpoint to take.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Any religion that bans bacon, booze, and shellfish isnt a group I want to be affiliated with

[nate1000]

as a first generation Canadian have a clear understanding of how important immigration can be.

Hold the phone one god damned minute here. You're canadian?

Go feck yerself, hoser. Don't you have some Blue to bottle? This here's an 'merican board, see? Go have a skate- pond's gotta be frozen by now. No-tipping asshat.




(Just bustin balls, op. Border city- I'm surrounded by yer funny money.)

[CurseoftheBambi]

it is just amazing how
brainwashed some people are
by political correctness

imagine if it was 1943
and a 1st generation
'german american' did this
i am sure people wouldn't
have noticed that fact

FDR and Truman
would not have tolerated
this self-destructive foolishness

you dont know me very well...im far from fucking pc :lol: and i knwo there's a difference from being PC to being respectful which is what pc is supposed to be about not shutting down people. So I try to be very respect of people not pc.

[CurseoftheBambi]

A man firing rounds into american soldiers while chanting to his god is a savage.

That is the reason I called him a savage.

its alleged that he did that not proven...thanks again.:thumbup:

[SatCam]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/11/06/amd_hasan_headshot.jpg


I just hope everyone realizes that this type of behavior is NOT typical of men with receding hair lines. Most men who are balding are perfectly normal, rational human beings and would never ever do such a thing. This is just one isolated indecent and I hope that there is no retaliation against bald guys around america

[~Katja~]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/11/06/amd_hasan_headshot.jpg


I just hope everyone realizes that this type of behavior is NOT typical of men with receding hair lines. Most men who are balding are perfectly normal, rational human beings and would never ever do such a thing. This is just one isolated indecent and I hope that there is no retaliation against bald guys around america

though men with receding hairlines often have too much testosterone and you know what that means

[Ponyboy]

Is this a self-revelation?

[Penelope]

There are crazy people in every religion, in every race. In any group there are is is to be a certain percentage of the population that is unhinged.
Hopefully we will learn more about warning signs and prevention, if scientists continue to study abnormal brain activity.

[Willmore]

Can't we all just agree that organized religion is evil?

Whether Christian organized religions like Catholicism or Protestantism, or any other sects, they have preached for the last 2000 years a message of exclusion and bigotry. They have started wars, violently opposed scientific progress and were involved (directly and indirectly) in some of the worst mass killings in history.


The same can be said of Islam.


I have no problem about other people's spirituality. If you believe in God, the divinity of Jesus, Allah, Ishvara, Yahweh, Zeus, Jupiter, Buddha etc. etc. I don't care. But organized religion has never, in my opinion, done anything positive in this world that has not been crossed over by the its reprehensible actions elsewhere.




As for the shooter, the guy was unstable. Trying to pigeonhole religious fanaticism into this case is a bit much. Statistically, there are X number of crazy people in the world. A certain number of those crazy people live in America. A certain number of those crazy people are Muslim. A certain number of those people are in the army. A certain number of those people are psychiatrists. And at least one of those people went completely bonkers and killed a lot of innocent people.

The same goes for the person who shot 8 in Orlando. The same goes for all the other nun-Muslim crazy killers out there.

Mind you, it's still nowhere near to the number of innocent people killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.

[Penelope]

Can't we all just agree that organized religion is evil?



No, I love going to church. I'm wiccan, and I meet lots of cool women at gatherings. I love my religion.

[Serpico1103]

FDR and Truman
would not have tolerated
this self-destructive foolishness

The good old days of internment camps. Or the original FEMA camps as Glenn Beck wrote on the bathroom wall at Jezo's gym.

You are free to check, but I think most terror attacks worldwide have nothing to do with Islam.
Moreover, I think most terror attacks against US interests have nothing to do with Islam. If not for 9/11, Central and South America would be way out in front.
I think Greece has the most terror incidents, again nothing to do with Islam.
But, the news has told you the enemy is Islam, so you believe it.

Every day I get 15 minutes on how a gulf storm will effect the northeast in a week, and how cold winds blowing in from the west may bring rain, unless a low pressure system moves in..... WHO CARES. How about some journalism and enough with weather maps. Embarrassing.

[Willmore]

No, I love going to church. I'm wiccan, and I meet lots of cool women at gatherings. I love my religion.

I meant organized religion, not organized LARPing. :lol:

[hanso]

Were fighting them over there so we don't---...eeerr how does that go again?

[Serpico1103]

Were fighting them over there so we don't---...eeerr how does that go again?

This belongs in the "Obama-worst president ever" thread. GW wouldn't have let this happen.

[hanso]

A lot of brush would have been chopped by now.

[Serpico1103]

A lot of brush would have been chopped by now.

:wink:
"Brush"- Muslims
"Chopped"- Eliminated

Got ya.

[Dude!]

is that your imam
in your avatar?

[keithy_19]

It seems like the shooters actions were for relgious purposes, but we can't be sure of that yet.

I would just like to say that for all those who are singing the praises of FDR and Truman in regards to locking people away who fit the mold are so grossly wrong.

[opie's twisted balls]

and I agree with this statement
I have no problem with the logic that all religion is flawed and has the ability to be dangerous but you've done nothing to convince me that christianity currently poses anywhere near the threat to western values or safety as does islam.


Special interest groups do not hold more "sway" than the majority here. That's a gigantic generalization based out of alarmist rhetoric that holds no basis in reality. Minorities getting scraps of concessions doesn't somehow magically wrest the power from the majority. Nobody was seriously talking about implementing widespread Sharia law: the discussions primarily centered around the idea of allowing aspects of it to be used in Muslim communities in regards to things like minor interpersonal financial and propery disputes with the idea that any "local" rulings or decisions would not actually supersede the actual law. Nobody was ever seirously considering implementing actual old school Sharia law.
We're not going to see eye to eye on much of this. Special interest groups be it faith, sexuality or environmental based are doing more to drive political and policy direction. To their credit its because they've figured out that by being vocal the lawmakers will listen. I'm not concerned about widespread sharia law, I'm concerned about ANY implementation of sharia law in western society since its fundamentally rooted in religion and IMO has no place in our courts. I know its a hacky comment but I believe its a slippery slope; today you're allowed to use sharia law to settle a contractual dispute and tomorrow its being dictated I have to have a beard the length of my hand.

How can you say this definitively? If this was the result of a sick person acting of their own accord, how is it all that different than the people that say they did something awful because of something they saw in a movie? Are you saying that you think this occured only because of his Islamic faith and that if he wasn't a Muslim there's no way this would have happened?
At this point nothing is definitive but given Hasan's actions prior to the shooting (giving away personal items, paying for someone to clean his apartment, wearing culturally specific clothing...all out of character for his normal behavior) I think its safe to say this wasn't just random. Its not different then any external influence and to use your example of a movie thats why we have MPAA ratings. No I'm not saying that he wouldn't have done this if he wasn't a muslim. What I'm saying is that when given to radical interpretation the islamic faith is fraught with seeding violence.

Which is true, but it's still intellectually dishonest to imply or extrapolate from that statement that we should then in turn fear, hate or distrust all or a majority of Muslims. Despite the laundry list of attacks it's still a very tiny relative few responsible for such actions. Nobody is saying we're not supposed to "hate" the extremists: some of us are just pointing out the difference between that and hating a gigantic group of people for the actions and rhetoric of a relative few. I'm not saying you're preaching such things, but you seem to be at least condoning this train of thought from others.
Read, or re-read, this (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Statement-on-Muslims.htm). When blond haired blue eyed Sweeds start flying planes into buildings or blowing themselves up en masse then I say start profiling them as well. Until then I think its fair the focus remains elsewhere.

There are many different sects and variations of Islam.
Thats a major part of the problem. Too many imams or clerics who are open to perverting a belief system into a dangerous cult.

They'll kill you for not calling them "Trekkers."
Oh no....what are they going to do....set their phasers to "annoy"

It sounds like ultimately we're not too far off in our opinions. I have no love for people that twist the teachings of Islam to fit their extremist agendas. Nobody feels that here. Some of us are simply arguing against the idea that events like the shooting at Fort Hood means we should fear and hate Muslims in general. As you know from your own experiences, that's simply not a reasonable standpoint to take.
Hating entire groups isn't a healthy way to go through life. Distrusting based on a demonstrable trend however is completely justifiable.


Any religion that bans bacon, booze, and shellfish isnt a group I want to be affiliated with
Amen or Allahu Akbar to that brother!


Hold the phone one god damned minute here. You're canadian?
Couldn't you tell by they way I say oooout and aboooout? :rolleyes: And as long as I'm getting rid of Canuck stereotypes....
-blue is marginally better to drink then piss
-XM broadcasts in Canada (although we don't get all the channels and the CRTC (our version of the FCC) forces XM to include some bullshit french channels) so here I am
-we don't all play hockey and I couldn't skate to save my life
-only people from Toronto can't tip

But yes, our money does look kind of foolish.


though men with receding hairlines often have too much testosterone and you know what that means
Big balls?


Can't we all just agree that organized religion is evil?
Zero argument on that one.


I'm wiccan
Pagan freak


But, the news has told you the enemy is Islam, so you believe it.
Can't speak for anyone else but the ease at which islam can be radicalized concerned me long before 9/11 and had nothing to do with the media.

[Serpico1103]

is that your imam
in your avatar?

No, that handsome son of a bitch is not my imam(a pregnant denial, implying that I do have an imam).
So- I am not Islamic, I was raised catholic, and when I reached maturity, instead of looking for another parental figure to comfort me, I became an atheist.

By the way, over 86% of whites are killed by whites.
So, if you are white, guess who you should be afraid of?

White men murder around 10K people every year in the US.
Now I am scared.

[Serpico1103]

Can't speak for anyone else but the ease at which islam can be radicalized concerned me long before 9/11 and had nothing to do with the media.

Information gathered from your own global research into extremist groups and radical religious groups?

I wish you had a job on a cable new show if that was true.

[underdog]

I have no problem with the logic that all religion is flawed and has the ability to be dangerous but you've done nothing to convince me that christianity currently poses anywhere near the threat to western values or safety as does islam.

Christianity is about a thousand times more likely to directly negatively effect my life than Islam will.

[Serpico1103]

Christianity is about a thousand times more likely to directly negatively effect my life than Islam will.

Sorry about that marriage thing, isn't a power of attorney enough for you f-words?

[opie's twisted balls]

I wish you had a job on a cable new show if that was true.
So do I, would make Rush look like a kitten.

[SonOfSmeagol]

In addition to the victims and families, I feel bad for the other Muslims in the armed forces who serve this country so well with distinction and pride. They're probably getting the hairy eyeball as we speak for no good reason. But this asswipe who did this makes me despise extremists the world over even more. And at the moment, based on alleged information on the actions he took, Islamic extremists more so.

[Serpico1103]

So do I, would make Rush look like a kitten.

Implying you believe in his ideology, but not his "soft" sell?

[Penelope]

Rude and rude! He he, you guys are funny. Seriously though, I think some of the bad feelings some people have about Muslims might change if they just hung out with a few. There are cool Muslims, and some are assholes, like anybody else.

[underdog]

Sorry about that marriage thing, isn't a power of attorney enough for you f-words?

I do not ride a Harley!

[Dude!]

I do not ride a Harley!

they don't make them that strong

[Serpico1103]

I do not ride a Harley!

Is Harley your boyfriend? And does he ride you?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I could bet anything that if he was a white guy who did this Keith Olbermann and the rest on MSNBC would blame it on talk radio or Fox news

[epo]

I could bet anything that if he was a white guy who did this Keith Olbermann and the rest on MSNBC would blame it on talk radio or Fox news

Shut up.

[TheMojoPin]

I think Greece has the most terror incidents, again nothing to do with Islam.

Greece? That's unexpected. Can you back that up?

[TheMojoPin]

It seems like the shooters actions were for relgious purposes, but we can't be sure of that yet.

I would just like to say that for all those who are singing the praises of FDR and Truman in regards to locking people away who fit the mold are so grossly wrong.

And not just for the obvious reasons. Dude keeps going on about "German-Americans," yet they weren't locked away like the Japanese were during WW2. The majority of American did not want to go to war with Germany even after Pearl Harbor and only did so because Hitler inexplicably declared war on the U.S. several days after the attack. On top of that, the prison camps here for German POWs were typically as minimum security as you can get, with the soldiers often allowed to freely go into the local towns. Nazi prisoners in America actually had more freedom than American citizens with Japanese ancestry.

[PapaBear]

On top of that, the prison camps here for German POWs were typically as minimum security as you can get, with the soldiers often allowed to freely go into the local towns. Nazi prisoners in America actually had more freedom than American citizens with Japanese ancestry.
This is true. There was a POW camp here in my town with German and Russian prisoners (the Russians were soldiers that had been captured by Germany and forced to fight for them). They were allowed to leave the camp every day to walk to the apple packing plant to work. Many of the Germans stayed after the war, because the area was so much like the part of Germany where they came from. The local women would gather every day to watch them play soccer.

[TheMojoPin]

We're not going to see eye to eye on much of this. Special interest groups be it faith, sexuality or environmental based are doing more to drive political and policy direction. To their credit its because they've figured out that by being vocal the lawmakers will listen. I'm not concerned about widespread sharia law, I'm concerned about ANY implementation of sharia law in western society since its fundamentally rooted in religion and IMO has no place in our courts. I know its a hacky comment but I believe its a slippery slope; today you're allowed to use sharia law to settle a contractual dispute and tomorrow its being dictated I have to have a beard the length of my hand.

Well, that's just paranoia on your part because it would take an impossible shift in the demographics and power structure of this country for it to take place. Again, nobody who mattered was seriously considering adding any aspect of Sharia law to our legal system. The idea was effectively along the lines of neighborhood or block charters. Nothing would have been allowed that actually conflicted with or overruled our legal system.
It's ridiculous to think that Sharia law has any chance of of being implemented here.

At this point nothing is definitive but given Hasan's actions prior to the shooting (giving away personal items, paying for someone to clean his apartment, wearing culturally specific clothing...all out of character for his normal behavior) I think its safe to say this wasn't just random. Its not different then any external influence and to use your example of a movie thats why we have MPAA ratings. No I'm not saying that he wouldn't have done this if he wasn't a muslim. What I'm saying is that when given to radical interpretation the islamic faith is fraught with seeding violence.

The last part is just common sense: that's why they're radicals. I say "random" because there's nothing to indicate that this guy had anything to do with anyone else. "Random" doesn't mean somebody doing something totally spur of the moment: most workplace and school shootings are committed by people who plan ahead somehow, yet they are considered "random" due to the unusual and unexpected nature of their occurance. Despite the actions of radical Islam, an American born and raised man from seemingly a rather unorthodox Muslim family going to medical school and becoming an officer and a psychiatrist in the US Army mass-killing a bunch of his fellow soldiers is about as unusual and unexpected as you can get. This could be the work of a profundly damaged person who broke down and used their faith as an excuse to justify their actions themselves.

Read, or re-read, this (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Statement-on-Muslims.htm). When blond haired blue eyed Sweeds start flying planes into buildings or blowing themselves up en masse then I say start profiling them as well. Until then I think its fair the focus remains elsewhere.

Nobody is saying that those that display aspects of extremist Islam shouldn't be profiled or investigated. It's simply not realistic to profile or suspect all or most Muslims. It's a waste of time that's simply not feasable to carry out.

Thats a major part of the problem. Too many imams or clerics who are open to perverting a belief system into a dangerous cult.

But that's every religion except for Catholicism. The Catholics are the only ones with a singular "leader" in their Pope.

Hating entire groups isn't a healthy way to go through life. Distrusting based on a demonstrable trend however is completely justifiable.

Distrusting a massive group of people is futile. I'm assuming you're not actually wary of every Muslim you meet.

[opie's twisted balls]

Greece? That's unexpected. Can you back that up?
Don't hold your breath.


This is true. There was a POW camp here in my town with German and Russian prisoners (the Russians were soldiers that had been captured by Germany and forced to fight for them). They were allowed to leave the camp every day to walk to the apple packing plant to work. Many of the Germans stayed after the war, because the area was so much like the part of Germany where they came from. The local women would gather every day to watch them play soccer.
Ditto in Canada (another similarity between our countries.....see, we're really not that different despite our silly currency). My grandfather fought for the Germans (he was Austrian) and it wasn't because he agreed with their ideology....it was because he didn't want to get shot. During the war he was taken prisoner by Canadians and was treated wonderfully. Fed well, given medical treatment, given a job to utilize his trade, etc. Once the war was over he made tracks ASAP across the Atlantic to set up shop here. The HUGE difference between post WWII European immigration to the US and Canada and what we're experiencing now is that there was a sense of wanting to be part of your new homeland. Yes you still cooked the same bratwurst and spatzel and likely remained friends with people from your birth country but first and foremost you were a proud new American or Canadian.


It's ridiculous to think that Sharia law has any chance of of being implemented here.

Look beyond your own borders. The implementation of sharia law has gained discernible traction in both Canada and Great Britain:

Why have Shariah law in Canada?
Many Muslims believe that because Canada is a secular country, its secular legal system makes it difficult for them to govern themselves by the personal laws of their own religion. For instance, Canada's marriage and divorce laws differ from Muslim law.

It can be important for a Muslim to be granted a divorce under Muslim law, especially if he or she intends to move to a Muslim country in the future and remarry.

Another concern for some is that if a Muslim dies without a will in Ontario, the estate would be divided according to Ontario law as opposed to Muslim law.

source (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam/shariah-law.html)



Sharia courts operating in Britain
Muslim tribunal courts started passing sharia judgments in August 2007. They have dealt with more than 100 cases that range from Muslim divorce and inheritance to nuisance neighbours.

Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2957428/Sharia-law-courts-operating-in-Britain.html)

While granted Great Britain has more diverse cultural demographic the either the US or Canada its still a predominantly christian society with and obviously the foundation of our collective English Common Law. To suggest that sharia law wouldn't take hold in America, or Canada, is foolishly naive. As for "no one who mattered" supporting sharia, again look to Great Britain and Rowan William (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23436203-sharia-law-row-archbishop-is-in-shock-as-he-faces-demands-to-quit-and-criticism-from-lord-carey.do) (The Archbishop of Canterbury).


Despite the actions of radical Islam, an American born and raised man from seemingly a rather unorthodox Muslim family going to medical school and becoming an officer and a psychiatrist in the US Army mass-killing a bunch of his fellow soldiers is about as unusual and unexpected as you can get.
I don't disagree that he doesn't fit the stereotypical profile of a suicide bomber but then neither did some of the 9/11 hijackers. Until all the facts are in I think its perfectly fair to treat Hasan, and all of his background including his culture, with appropriate suspicion.


Nobody is saying that those that display aspects of extremist Islam shouldn't be profiled or investigated. It's simply not realistic to profile or suspect all or most Muslims. It's a waste of time that's simply not feasable to carry out.
My problem with only limiting to the extremists within the islamic faith is the same as limiting any other criminal investigation. If local, state or federal law enforcement only kept their scope to known and radical criminals we'd still be living in the Wild West. The reality is that for every fruitful criminal investigation there are countless ones that end up with nothing nefarious. Because of political correctness and the fear of offending special interests our police and courts have been restricted to only pursue any religious based criminal once there's no shadow of doubt.


But that's every religion except for Catholicism. The Catholics are the only ones with a singular "leader" in their Pope.
I'd agree with you but you're wrong:
-Archbishop of Canterbury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_of_Canterbury)
-Head of Tibetan Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigdal_Dagchen_Sakya)
-Assorted Orthodox Christian patriarchs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_patriarchs)
-Presiding Mormon Bishop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._David_Burton)
-Chief Raelian Wingnut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Vorilhon)*
-Hare Krishna potentate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanumatpresaka_Swami)


I'm assuming you're not actually wary of every Muslim you meet.
I'm wary of EVERYONE until they prove themselves to not be a threat.



*fake apologies to anyone who believes in that shit

[TheMojoPin]

Look beyond your own borders. The implementation of sharia law has gained discernible traction in both Canada and Great Britain:

While granted Great Britain has more diverse cultural demographic the either the US or Canada its still a predominantly christian society with and obviously the foundation of our collective English Common Law. To suggest that sharia law wouldn't take hold in America, or Canada, is foolishly naive. As for "no one who mattered" supporting sharia, again look to Great Britain and Rowan William (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23436203-sharia-law-row-archbishop-is-in-shock-as-he-faces-demands-to-quit-and-criticism-from-lord-carey.do) (The Archbishop of Canterbury).

I don't see how this counters my assertions about Sharia taking root here in America. You're still requiring huge leaps in logic or just sidestepping that tract of discussion altogether to respond to my points. Any attempts at implementing Sharia law in the U.S. did not amount to anything more than block contracts/covenants over interpersonal financial and property issues (a variaiton of the waqf school of Islamic law) and could not supersede our legal system.

On top of that, you're using "Sharia law" as term to imply that Sharia is only something negative. While it is true that very extreme and barbaric strands of Sharia exist and are practiced, the term itself covers a wide variation of the interpretations of Islamic law. There are many schools of thought that believe the English common law system was actually modeled on versions of classic Islamic law.

Sharia/Islamic law covers a huge scope of philosophies and ideas. I certainly agree that if you're looking at the extremist or self-proclaimed "traditionalist" views of Sharia it's absurd and has no place in modern society, but then you also have the reformers and the secular scholars and practitioners. Sharia is not only the legal boogeyman you seem to think it is. It's a complicated issue.

I don't disagree that he doesn't fit the stereotypical profile of a suicide bomber but then neither did some of the 9/11 hijackers. Until all the facts are in I think its perfectly fair to treat Hasan, and all of his background including his culture, with appropriate suspicion.

My problem with only limiting to the extremists within the islamic faith is the same as limiting any other criminal investigation. If local, state or federal law enforcement only kept their scope to known and radical criminals we'd still be living in the Wild West. The reality is that for every fruitful criminal investigation there are countless ones that end up with nothing nefarious. Because of political correctness and the fear of offending special interests our police and courts have been restricted to only pursue any religious based criminal once there's no shadow of doubt.

What you're talking about simply is not realistic, and it has nothing to do with political correctness. We simply do not have the manpower or the resources or the need to suspect, investigate or profile every Muslim in this country.

I'd agree with you but you're wrong:
-Archbishop of Canterbury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_of_Canterbury)
-Head of Tibetan Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigdal_Dagchen_Sakya)
-Assorted Orthodox Christian patriarchs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_patriarchs)
-Presiding Mormon Bishop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._David_Burton)
-Hare Krishna potentate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanumatpresaka_Swami)

I should have clarified: I meant the "big five" of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaica and Islam. Tibetan Buddhism is only one of many variations of Buddhism, and Jigdal Dagchen Sakya is one of several "leader" figures throughout the religion, none of whom are really comparable to the singular authority that the Pope has over such a huge group of people and his church. That said, it's a fruitless hope to long for some kind of "singular" leader to take hold in Islam. There's too many different sects, and it wouldn't be some kind of "cure-all" to do away with fanatacism. As we've seen with the Pope, if people don't like the boss they just go off and do their own thing.


I'm wary of EVERYONE until they prove themselves to not be a threat.

That's a pretty fearful way to go through life since odds almost everyone you ever encounter is not a threat to you as you seem to be implying.

[Dude!]

On top of that, you're using "Sharia law" as term to imply that Sharia is only something negative. While it is true that very extreme and barbaric strands of Sharia exist and are practiced, the term itself covers a wide variation of the interpretations of Islamic law. There are many schools of thought that believe the English common law system was actually modeled on versions of classic Islamic law.

Sharia/Islamic law covers a huge scope of philosophies and ideas. I certainly agree that if you're looking at the extremist or self-proclaimed "traditionalist" views of Sharia it's absurd and has no place in modern society, but then you also have the reformers and the secular scholars and practitioners. Sharia is not only the legal boogeyman you seem to think it is. It's a complicated issue.

i am amazed at the lengths
you always go to
to appear to be 'understanding'

ask your girlfriend (if you have one)
if she would like to live under
ANY version or interpretation
of sharia law

or ask your boyfriend
if he would like to live under
ANY version or interpretation
of sharia law

we knock ourselves out here
with discussions over things
like abortion and gay marriage

imagine that...we can talk about things
no such discussions under ANY version
of sharia law...bye bye abortion
and bye bye gays

you really need to stop thinking
that just because other 'cultures'
do things, that we must respect them

i do not respect the way islamic cultures
treat women and i do not respect the way
they treat gays

you need to retune your moral compass

[yojimbo7248]

i am amazed at the lengths
you always go to
to appear to be 'understanding'

ask your girlfriend (if you have one)
if she would like to live under
ANY version or interpretation
of sharia law

or ask your boyfriend
if he would like to live under
ANY version or interpretation
of sharia law

we knock ourselves out here
with discussions over things
like abortion and gay marriage

imagine that...we can talk about things
no such discussions under ANY version
of sharia law...bye bye abortion
and bye bye gays

you really need to stop thinking
that just because other 'cultures'
do things, that we must respect them

i do not respect the way islamic cultures
treat women and i do not respect the way
they treat gays

you need to retune your moral compass

We are in far more danger in the US of being forced to live under a fundamentalist Christian legal code than Sharia law. Considering our demographics, politics, hell, just about everything about this country, it just seems silly to be losing sleep over being forced to obey Sharia law. If those concerned are arguing that Obama is a Manchurian candidate and soon he will reveal his plan of forcing this country to be more Islamic than Saudi Arabai then, well, fuck, I don't know what to say...

[Dude!]

We are in far more danger in the US of being forced to live under a fundamentalist Christian legal code than Sharia law. Considering our demographics, politics, hell, just about everything about this country, it just seems silly to be losing sleep over being forced to obey Sharia law. If those concerned are arguing that Obama is a Manchurian candidate and soon he will reveal his plan of forcing this country to be more Islamic than Saudi Arabai then, well, fuck, I don't know what to say...

i do not fear sharia law
being imposed here

i just think trying to defend
and treat with sympathy the most
repressive 'legal system' in the world
is idiotic

unless you are for stoning woman
who fornicate
and for hanging gays
just because they are gay

[TheMojoPin]

i do not fear sharia law
being imposed here

i just think trying to defend
and treat with sympathy the most
repressive 'legal system' in the world
is idiotic

unless you are for stoning woman
who fornicate
and for hanging gays
just because they are gay

I am not defending the extremist interpretations of Sharia law. I'm pointing out that "Sharia law" as a term is used as a scare tactic across the board when it actually means a lot of different things. Yes, some people want to follow the horrible extremist version. Others, however, are referring to the reformist, secular or modernist approaches to Islamic law, most of which are schools of thought that have been massively influential on Western legal systems over the centuries. That said, I don't want and don't think any version will "take over" in the U.S., but I'm not going to flip out if some communities want to adapt versions of the latter schools of thoughts for financial and propety-related community pacts that don't supersede our legal system. The only thing that's idiotic is you continually demonstrating you're unwilling to know anything about Islam except what can let you hate it.

[Dude!]

I am not defending the extremist interpretations of Sharia law. I'm pointing out that "Sharia law" as a term is used as a scare tactic across the board when it actually means a lot of different things. Yes, some people want to follow the horrible extremist version. Others, however, are referring to the reformist, secular or modernist approaches to Islamic law, most of which are schools of thought that have been massively influential on Western legal systems over the centuries. That said, I don't want and don't think any version will "take over" in the U.S., but I'm not going to flip out if some communities want to adapt versions of the latter schools of thoughts for financial and propety-related community pacts that don't supersede our legal system. The only thing that's idiotic is you continually demonstrating you're unwilling to know anything about Islam except what can let you hate it.

i will flip out if that happens
i believe in separation
of church and state

i'm surprised you don't

[TheMojoPin]

i will flip out if that happens
i believe in separation
of church and state

i'm surprised you don't

I don't know how much more simple a statement like "it doesn't supersede our legal system" can be. It would have basically been a block charter. It would not have had power over the legal system. Are you grapsing this at all?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I don't know how much more simple a statement like "it doesn't supersede our legal system" can be. It would have basically been a block charter. It would not have had power over the legal system. Are you grapsing this at all?

As it shouldn't The 1st ammendment forbids a state religion

[TheMojoPin]

As it shouldn't The 1st ammendment forbids a state religion

Who the crap is talking about wanting a state religion here?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Who the crap is talking about wanting a state religion here?

Sharia law and our legal system was brought up Im just backing up your fact that I dont believe Sharia will be enacted here

[KatPw]

Who the crap is talking about wanting a state religion here?

Christian Fundamentalists.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Christian Fundamentalists.

God Hates the Constitution


http://sfist.com/attachments/SFistJames/fred_phelps.jpg

[Dude!]

I don't know how much more simple a statement like "it doesn't supersede our legal system" can be. It would have basically been a block charter. It would not have had power over the legal system. Are you grapsing this at all?

like david koresh?

i understand completely
and reject this horrendouse concept

[TheMojoPin]

It's nothing like David Kroesh. These neighborhoods wouldn't have been exempt from the law, nor were they trying to be as such.

And you live in a horrendouse.

[TheMojoPin]

Thanks, Nate, for saying what alot of us were afraid to say..there are certain mods here who will ban you in a minute for being "racist" (their definition...not mine)

I will, however, happily ban you for being reeshy. Seeyuh.

[Dude!]

It's nothing like David Kroesh. These neighborhoods wouldn't have been exempt from the law, nor were they trying to be as such.

And you live in a horrendouse.

you changed the spelling
in my post!

that is an abuse of mod power!


you cannot have separate
legal systems running in tandem
it is an impossible situation

you have been slipping lately...
you used to make partial-sense

what happened?

[TheMojoPin]

I changed nothing. You're just naturally retarded.

And nobody is talking about seperate legal systems. Do you also think a neighborhood covenant is a seperate legal system?

[Dude!]

I changed nothing. You're just naturally retarded.

And nobody is talking about seperate legal systems. Do you also think a neighborhood covenant is a seperate legal system?

a 'neighborhood covenant'
sounds so nice
but has no meaning

give me some examples
of what they would 'covenant'
to do

[TheMojoPin]

How many times do I have to say "interpersonal property and financial issues" before you figure out what the hell it is?

Think of it this way...it's a bunch of neighbors agreeing to handle loans and propety sales and whatnot amongst each other. If they have a dispute, there's someone in the neighborhood they go to rule on this issue. Any party, however, can still take an issue up with the actual legal system if they so choose. The neighborhood agreements and rulings do not cancel out the actual legal system.

Like you said, it basically has no meaning. It would be little more than symbolic.

[Tenbatsuzen]

I changed nothing. You're just naturally retarded.

And nobody is talking about seperate legal systems. Do you also think a neighborhood covenant is a seperate legal system?

The Ark Covenant seemed to have some pretty harsh punishment for breaking its rules.

[badmonkey]

U.S. intelligence agencies learned an Army psychiatrist tried to contact people linked to al Qaeda and they gave the information to federal authorities before the man allegedly went on shooting spree in Texas last week, U.S. sources said on Monday. (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5A85DK20091109)

Anwar al-Awlaki's online support for Fort Hood gunman Major Hasan
Anwar al-Awlaki was born in New Mexico of Yemeni descent. He lives in Yemen, which is home to at least 300 al-Qaeda militants. According to his website he served as an imam in Denver, San Diego and Falls Church, Virginia

He wrote on his blog yesterday: “Nidal Hassan [sic] is a hero. He is a man of conscience who could not bear the contradiction of being a Muslim and fighting against his own people. No scholar with a grain of Islamic knowledge can deny the clear cut proofs that Muslims today have the right — rather the duty — to fight against American tyranny” (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6910276.ece)
Fort Hood gunman had told US military colleagues that infidels should have their throats cut (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6526030/Fort-Hood-gunman-had-told-US-military-colleagues-that-infidels-should-have-their-throats-cut.html)
Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the gunman who killed 13 at America's Fort Hood military base, once gave a lecture to other doctors in which he said non-believers should be beheaded and have boiling oil poured down their throats.
He also told colleagues at America's top military hospital that non-Muslims were infidels condemned to hell who should be set on fire. The outburst came during an hour-long talk Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, gave on the Koran in front of dozens of other doctors at Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in Washington DC, where he worked for six years before arriving at Fort Hood in July.

I think it's probably safe to say this guy is a Muslim extremist. I don't think anybody believes that every Muslim is an extremist, but it is fair to take a situation where a Muslim goes on a shooting spree murdering unarmed American soldiers because he disagrees with a war against Muslim extremists and wonder if he might have picked the other side.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Janet Napolitano a hack of a former governor , is making idiotic comments like this. Who the fuck is targeting muslims and burning down mosques? Thats the difference btwn us and the nutjob jihadists, we are not going to go apeshit and act like animals. We have evolved. The shooter is going to get a court martial. these fucking politicians are clueless


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8GOiUlCCnhCsRp1Xvs94KDJh8owD9BR9GPG0

[Dude!]

Janet Napolitano a hack of a former governor , is making idiotic comments like this. Who the fuck is targeting muslims and burning down mosques? Thats the difference btwn us and the nutjob jihadists, we are not going to go apeshit and act like animals. We have evolved. The shooter is going to get a court martial. these fucking politicians are clueless


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8GOiUlCCnhCsRp1Xvs94KDJh8owD9BR9GPG0

she's on their side
not America's

the only relevant fact this week
is that in islamic terrorist shot
people in texas

[WRESTLINGFAN]

she's on their side
not America's

the only relevant fact this week
is that in islamic terrorist shot
people in texas

The same lowlife who heads a cabinet dept to be aware of returning veterans too. Turns out that scum never deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan

And these douches in the media with their questions on why did he do this? Hey assholes Olbermann and crew Because he took a direct interpretation of the Koran

[angrymissy]

Janet Napolitano a hack of a former governor , is making idiotic comments like this. Who the fuck is targeting muslims and burning down mosques? Thats the difference btwn us and the nutjob jihadists, we are not going to go apeshit and act like animals. We have evolved. The shooter is going to get a court martial. these fucking politicians are clueless


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8GOiUlCCnhCsRp1Xvs94KDJh8owD9BR9GPG0

Um, I guess you forgot that people and Mosques were targeted after 9/11? Several Mosques were set on fire. That's what they'd like to avoid... and one of the people murdered wasn't even Muslim, he was a Sikh, and one was severely beaten here on LI right afterward for wearing their headdress. My boss at the time was a Sikh and he got a lot of threats from random people simply because he was a "towel head".

[SonOfSmeagol]

If only she'd crossed herself as she said this, up there on that dais with those dudes in Abu Dhabi. How great would that've been.

[Dude!]

If only she'd crossed herself as she said this, up there on that dais with those dudes in Abu Dhabi. How great would that've been.

ha ha!
or crossed her fingers
behind her back