Atheists Sue over WTC Cross

[StanUpshaw]

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site.

No, you see, he has a life. He listens to the Eagles.

[Sue_Bender]

No, you see, he has a life. He listens to the Eagles.

:lol:

[sailor]

He really likes black QBs, too.

he must really be thrilled to have three of them!

[TripleSkeet]

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site.



He really likes black QBs, too.
I consider it violating the law the same way I feel jaywalking does. Or smoking in the park in ny. It's an issue because people are whiners. Get over it. I don't consider a cross in the lobby of a museum to carry the same weight as the Spanish inquisition. I'll always consider the people complaining to be whiny pussies. Oh well. Don't like it? Blow me.

And for the record, no I'm really unhappy with the addition of Vince young. I'm hoping Vick can prove my black qb theory wrong though.

[underdog]

I consider it violating the law the same way I feel jaywalking does. Or smoking in the park in ny. It's an issue because people are whiners. Get over it. I don't consider a cross in the lobby of a museum to carry the same weight as the Spanish inquisition. I'll always consider the people complaining to be whiny pussies. Oh well. Don't like it? Blow me.

Yes, separation of church and state is the exact same thing as jaywalking laws.

[Jujubees2]

Imagine if the beams fell and formed a Star of David.

[Snacks]

Imagine if the beams fell and formed a Star of David.

what if it formed a Muslim symbol like that 1/4 moon or whatever it is? would that be allowed? I would bet with all the bent metal and debris there is something they could say looked like that? People would be outraged!

[keithy_19]

Imagine if the beams fell and formed a Star of David.

I'd allow it in the museum.

[spoon]

I'd allow it in the museum.

Your a mod, not judge buddy. Oh and if alone, you'd be wrong.

[TripleSkeet]

what if it formed a Muslim symbol like that 1/4 moon or whatever it is? would that be allowed? I would bet with all the bent metal and debris there is something they could say looked like that? People would be outraged!


I wouldn't. Same thing if they found one in the shape of a star of David. Shit I'd want that included out of sheer amazement.

[spoon]

I wouldn't. Same thing if they found one in the shape of a star of David. Shit I'd want that included out of sheer amazement.

How about none of the above and we keep religion, the root cause of this tragedy out of the memorial all together, and focus on those we lost and moving forward. This is pretty much all the lawsuit is calling for and it makes sense.

[Misteriosa]

How about none of the above and we keep religion, the root cause of this tragedy out of the memorial all together, and focus on those we lost and moving forward. This is pretty much all the lawsuit is calling for and it makes sense.

*takes off mod hat*

this may be the smartest thing you have ever written. these beams in the shape of a cross seems more like basic building techniques, grids etc, and whats exposed when its torn apart, rather than an act of god/miracle. this incident hurt so many. i think that the pain this caused is making people read more into situations than there really is.

Let's leave religion out of it. we need to make this all inclusive, even for those without any religious beliefs. to include religion would be to exclude them.

*puts on mod hat*

[Zorro]

*takes off mod hat*

this may be the smartest thing you have ever written. these beams in the shape of a cross seems more like basic building techniques, grids etc, and whats exposed when its torn apart, rather than an act of god/miracle. this incident hurt so many. i think that the pain this caused is making people read more into situations than there really is.

Let's leave religion out of it. we need to make this all inclusive, even for those without any religious beliefs. to include religion would be to exclude them.

*puts on mod hat*

Isn't it "Freedom Of, not Freedom From"

[sailor]

Fuck, now keithy is gonna want a mod hat, blabbermouth.

[StanUpshaw]

Isn't it "Freedom Of, not Freedom From"

Isn't what?

[Bob Impact]

Isn't it "Freedom Of, not Freedom From"

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[booster11373]

you really cant have freedom of, without freedom from

[keithy_19]

Fuck, now keithy is gonna want a mod hat, blabbermouth.

Fuck that. I've been held in the dark about the mod hats? You besta give me not only a mod hat, but a mod onesie as well.

[keithy_19]

*takes off mod hat*

this may be the smartest thing you have ever written. these beams in the shape of a cross seems more like basic building techniques, grids etc, and whats exposed when its torn apart, rather than an act of god/miracle. this incident hurt so many. i think that the pain this caused is making people read more into situations than there really is.

Let's leave religion out of it. we need to make this all inclusive, even for those without any religious beliefs. to include religion would be to exclude them.

*puts on mod hat*

*puts on a beat up yankees cap*

I just feel that those beams that (I think most people will agree with) were not an act of God, represented some symbol that people rallied behind. For whatever the reason, they became an image that has been used when discussing the attacks of 9/11. A museum about the trade centers should have them included for this purpose and that purpose alone.

*leaves on beat up yankees cap*

[disneyspy]

Fuck that. I've been held in the dark about the mod hats? You besta give me not only a mod hat, but a mod onesie as well.

you can have mine,i have no idea why i got the one that says I'M A DORK

[keithy_19]

you can have mine,i have no idea why i got the one that says I'M A DORK

That's fine. I'll wear my glasses and carry around a messenger bag as well. It's like h&m for retards.

[StanUpshaw]

This thread has become far too jovial

[underdog]

This thread has become far too jovial

fuck you.

[keithy_19]

This thread has become far too jovial


fuck you.

USA! USA! USA!

[spoon]

*puts on a beat up yankees cap*

I just feel that those beams that (I think most people will agree with) were not an act of God, represented some symbol that people rallied behind. For whatever the reason, they became an image that has been used when discussing the attacks of 9/11. A museum about the trade centers should have them included for this purpose and that purpose alone.

*leaves on beat up yankees cap*

For whatever reason?! Come on Keithy, this is the US, it's not by chance that happened.

[StanUpshaw]

I've been giving this some thought....

I say we allow it as long as the accompanying plaque has a lots of "so-called" and "believers claim" peppered throughout; anything close to gobbledegook be in italics AND scare quotes; and at the end they have a rolleyes smiley.

I believe if those precautions are taken, that would constitute and adequate barrier between church and state.

[keithy_19]

For whatever reason?! Come on Keithy, this is the US, it's not by chance that happened.

This is a fair point. But they could have been in the shape of something else, and if whatever shape that happened to be was included in the museum I would have no problem with it because it became a symbol that people associated with the event.

[spoon]

This is a fair point. But they could have been in the shape of something else, and if whatever shape that happened to be was included in the museum I would have no problem with it because it became a symbol that people associated with the event.

Then nobody else would have an issue either and this isn't a thread/topic of debate. If it took the shape of an X, I demand it go to the center square and Jim J. Bullock.

[keithy_19]

I've been giving this some thought....

I say we allow it as long as the accompanying plaque has a lots of "so-called" and "believers claim" peppered throughout; anything close to gobbledegook be in italics AND scare quotes; and at the end they have a rolleyes smiley.

I believe if those precautions are taken, that would constitute and adequate barrier between church and state.

Can this apply to art that is in tax payer funded museums that show a negative view of christianity?

Or is it only work the other way? Or, would you have those pieces removed from the museum because while they are showing christianity in a way that may offend some christians, they are still bringing up god?

[StanUpshaw]

This is a fair point. But they could have been in the shape of something else, and if whatever shape that happened to be was included in the museum I would have no problem with it because it became a symbol that people associated with the event.

If this was Keithy19's Rib Shack and 9/11 Emporium, whether or not you "have a problem with it" would matter. But it's not.

Evaluate it constitutionally.

[keithy_19]

Evaluate it constitutionally.

I have. I don't really see it as promoting a religion.

But I've made that known, and you've made your view known, and basically we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.

[spoon]

If this was Keithy19's Rib Shack and 9/11 Emporium, whether or not you "have a problem with it" would matter. But it's not.

Evaluate it constitutionally.

That business venture sounds AWFUL. Don't do it Keithy.

[spoon]

I have. I don't really see it as promoting a religion.

But I've made that known, and you've made your view known, and basically we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.

Underdog is going to be PISSED!

[PapaBear]

Underdog is going to be PISSED!
He and Keithy will need to agree to disagree.

[StanUpshaw]

Can this apply to art that is in tax payer funded museums that show a negative view of christianity?

Or is it only work the other way? Or, would you have those pieces removed from the museum because while they are showing christianity in a way that may offend some christians, they are still bringing up god?

If you could demonstrate that they were singling out one religion for esteem or scorn, then yes.

[spoon]

I will be praying for your souls...not in the museum of course.

[keithy_19]

He and Keithy will need to agree to disagree.

:thumbup:

Time for a mod high-five!

[PapaBear]

:thumbup:

Time for a mod high-five!
Shut up and ban the spammer IN YOUR THREAD!

[keithy_19]

If you could demonstrate that they were singling out one religion for esteem or scorn, then yes.

So anything that offends someone, or goes out of its way to potentially offend someone, would not be allowed in a public funded arena?

[spoon]

:thumbup:

Time for a mod high-five!

that's smashing two lego dildos together right? :unsure:

[keithy_19]

Shut up and ban the spammer IN YOUR THREAD!

Yes sir...

Seniority sucks.

[StanUpshaw]

So anything that offends someone, or goes out of its way to potentially offend someone, would not be allowed in a public funded arena?

How is that anywhere close to what I said?

You can't choose one religion and exclude others.

[StanUpshaw]

Christiansingles.com

Jewel of Arabia? I apologize for for my white christian boardmates and their xenophobic ways. They hate you and your pedo god.

[spoon]

now

[keithy_19]

How is that anywhere close to what I said?

You can't choose one religion and exclude others.

So anything that involves religion, regardless of how it's involved, shouldn't be allowed in establishments which are funded by tax payers dollars?

It just seems that this has happened before in art museums where christianity has been featured in a negative light.

[StanUpshaw]

So anything that involves religion, regardless of how it's involved, shouldn't be allowed in establishments which are funded by tax payers dollars?

It just seems that this has happened before in art museums where christianity has been featured in a negative light.

Trolly19 should get his stripes taken away for being such a troll.

[PapaBear]

I'm slowly backing away now. Ok... Quickly.

[StanUpshaw]

I don't understand what's happening.

[PapaBear]

I don't understand what's happening.
Neither do I. My fish is dead. And, not that this has anything to do with this conversation, but he was of the Bahá'í faith.

[keithy_19]

Trolly19 should get his stripes taken away for being such a troll.

So because I have a different view of this situation then you I'm suddenly a troll?

Btw, I hate myself for starting all of these with "so". But you getting in a huff gets me going. This thread has been a dream for me.

[spoon]

I hope that museum has a Bahai star included now too.

[spoon]

So because I have a different view of this situation then you I'm suddenly a troll?

Btw, I hate myself for starting all of these with "so". But you getting in a huff gets me going. This thread has been a dream for me.

does it grind your gears?

[PapaBear]

does it grind your gears?
YOU are a Randy Newman hater!!!

[keithy_19]

It could be the ambien just hitting, but I would just like to say that you're all swell. Even when we disagree. Unless your StanUpShaw.

See, you don't know the people I know. You don't have the connections I have. Or the powers I have. Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Spoon? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for the 9/11 lawsuit, and you curse the cross. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That the 9/11 lawsuit's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

[disneyspy]

does it grind your gears?

you know what grinds my gears?

when i dont push the clutch all the way in and try and shift

[disneyspy]

It could be the ambien just hitting, but I would just like to say that you're all swell. Even when we disagree. Unless your StanUpShaw.

See, you don't know the people I know. You don't have the connections I have. Or the powers I have. Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Spoon? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for the 9/11 lawsuit, and you curse the cross. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That the 9/11 lawsuit's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

i think we all sleep alittle better knowing we have a keithy out there,i know i do

[keithy_19]

i think we all sleep alittle better knowing we have a keithy out there,i know i do

Good.

[underdog]

So because I have a different view of this situation then you I'm suddenly a troll?

Btw, I hate myself for starting all of these with "so". But you getting in a huff gets me going. This thread has been a dream for me.

I think his problem is that you're purposely missing the facts and creating a separate reality in which you argue. You're "wrestlingfan"ing it. It almost seems like you're doing it on purpose at this point, which makes you look like a troll.

[StanUpshaw]

I think his problem is that you're purposely missing the facts and creating a separate reality in which you argue. You're "wrestlingfan"ing it. It almost seems like you're doing it on purpose at this point, which makes you look like a troll.

So what you're saying is that all black people should be imprisoned and sterilized??

[Misteriosa]

So what you're saying is that all messicans should be imprisoned and sterilized??

fixed.. :down:

[keithy_19]

I think his problem is that you're purposely missing the facts and creating a separate reality in which you argue. You're "wrestlingfan"ing it. It almost seems like you're doing it on purpose at this point, which makes you look like a troll.

I just have a different view of this situation than he does.

[underdog]

I just have a different view of this situation than he does.

That's fine, but your answers to his questions and posts make no sense related to what he's saying.

Him : "The reason it's bad is because it's government sponsored."
You : "But what about that private thing that had no government involvement at all!"

[keithy_19]

That's fine, but your answers to his questions and posts make no sense related to what he's saying.

Him : "The reason it's bad is because it's government sponsored."
You : "But what about that private thing that had no government involvement at all!"

I was speaking of government funded museums that have art that could be taken as offensive by christians.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Jon Stewart and the Daily Show nails it right on the head. (http://gawker.com/5827959/)

[spoon]

like a nail in a cross...he's wrong

[Tenbatsuzen]

1) Why do you give a shit

2) Can't you just see it as a piece of the building

3) Congrats on alienating everyone who might be sympathetic to your cause by acting like dicks

[StanUpshaw]

1) Why do you give a shit

2) Can't you just see it as a piece of the building

3) Congrats on alienating everyone who might be sympathetic to your cause by acting like dicks

Are you going to repeat his monologue next?

[spoon]

And I'm a huge fan of JS, but here quite simply he is wrong.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Are you going to repeat his monologue next?

No, but I will use a Nok-Hockey game as a coffee table.

[angrymissy]

I just have a different view of this situation than he does.

no, you just don't seem to understand the basic tenet that it's not things that offend people that can't be put on publicly funded property, it's things that single out one religion over another that can't be but on publicly funded property.

It's a regular section of cross beam that fell. It's religious when it's promoted as a miracle cross that fell that was also blessed by priests. It's very cut and dry.

When people say why give a shit, well if people didn't give a shit ever, than things like this would just keep happening. And seriously, lets be honest here, if it were, indeed, a muslim symbol being placed in taxpayer funded property, there would be a gigantic shitstorm.

You cannot simply be complacent in all matters pertaining to such things, otherwise, it will just happen over and over. Should people never take a stand when their rights have been violated because they're not a member of the status quo?

When it comes down to it, it's two beams that fell much in the way any grid of beams would fall in a building collapse. The fact that it's promoted as a miracle cross is where the problem lies.

[angrymissy]

The American Atheists sum it up well:

"It just so happens that the WTC was made out of T-joints and they found a T-joint,"

"They put it in the church, kept in the church for years, prayed over it, blessed it. You don't get to do that just in the coincidence that your icon looks like a T-joint."

and the Memorial Foundation describes it as:

a "symbol of spiritual comfort for the thousands of recovery workers who toiled at ground zero," as well as an "authentic physical reminder" that "tell[s] the story of 9/11 in a way nothing else can."

So yeah, it's not just a piece of metal. It's a religious symbol. On top of that, they contacted the museum and asked to put up a symbol representing the 500 non-religious Americans killed in the attack, and were told they could not.

[Furtherman]

no, you just don't seem to understand the basic tenet that it's not things that offend people that can't be put on publicly funded property, it's things that single out one religion over another that can't be but on publicly funded property.

It's a regular section of cross beam that fell. It's religious when it's promoted as a miracle cross that fell that was also blessed by priests. It's very cut and dry.

When people say why give a shit, well if people didn't give a shit ever, than things like this would just keep happening. And seriously, lets be honest here, if it were, indeed, a muslim symbol being placed in taxpayer funded property, there would be a gigantic shitstorm.

You cannot simply be complacent in all matters pertaining to such things, otherwise, it will just happen over and over. Should people never take a stand when their rights have been violated because they're not a member of the status quo?

When it comes down to it, it's two beams that fell much in the way any grid of beams would fall in a building collapse. The fact that it's promoted as a miracle cross is where the problem lies.


When this story first came out I really didn't care. I get the symbolism and tradition of the cross and how it's a comfort to some people. I get that those things will always be around. You see enough of them on the side of the road.

But the more I thought about it, the more I've come to think that it shouldn't be there. Mostly because of the reasons angrymissy just stated, because that's the way things go - and her point I bolded above, is absolutely sickeningly true.

[Furtherman]

So yeah, it's not just a piece of metal. It's a religious symbol. On top of that, they contacted the museum and asked to put up a symbol representing the 500 non-religious Americans killed in the attack, and were told they could not.

Wow, that is complete bullshit. Can't people just have a memorial without the religious decorations?

[angrymissy]

All the museum has to do is offer space to other religions and the non-religious, to put up a memorial item representing them, but they declined that request. So, they are totally ok in promoting one religion, but not ok in allowing others to be promoted.

If it's not a big deal, why not just let the atheist group put up a small memorial piece to the atheists that died in the attacks? That the museum declined that request speaks volumes about what is really going on. Christianity represented in the museum = ok. Atheists = not ok. That's why they keep fighting the fight over something people say is "not a big deal".

[CountryBob]

Isn't this why we came to this country some 400 years ago - freedom of religion? Make it official and promote religious peace by allowing symbols of any religion to be a part of the structure. Take the high road I say....

I'd like to buy the world a coke, and keep it company...

[spoon]

All the museum has to do is offer space to other religions and the non-religious, to put up a memorial item representing them, but they declined that request. So, they are totally ok in promoting one religion, but not ok in allowing others to be promoted.

If it's not a big deal, why not just let the atheist group put up a small memorial piece to the atheists that died in the attacks? That the museum declined that request speaks volumes about what is really going on. Christianity represented in the museum = ok. Atheists = not ok. That's why they keep fighting the fight over something people say is "not a big deal".

Still, their main objective is zero religious pieces in the museum, as the other option was given to expose their bias more. There are plenty of crosses in a church so just put it in a church near the museum and you're good to go. For people that don't think allowing shit like this to happen can spiral out of control think again. This country is already held hostage on many issues due to the religious right, I really wish people could worship whatever they do during their own time and not have abortions by choice if that's their will. Having everyone else live according to your religious laws is scary, just ask a Christian how they'd feel about Sharia Law. Here's an idea, keep it out of gov/politics completely.

[spoon]

1) Why do you give a shit

2) Can't you just see it as a piece of the building

3) Congrats on alienating everyone who might be sympathetic to your cause by acting like dicks

no, you just don't seem to understand the basic tenet that it's not things that offend people that can't be put on publicly funded property, it's things that single out one religion over another that can't be but on publicly funded property.

It's a regular section of cross beam that fell. It's religious when it's promoted as a miracle cross that fell that was also blessed by priests. It's very cut and dry.

When people say why give a shit, well if people didn't give a shit ever, than things like this would just keep happening. And seriously, lets be honest here, if it were, indeed, a muslim symbol being placed in taxpayer funded property, there would be a gigantic shitstorm.

You cannot simply be complacent in all matters pertaining to such things, otherwise, it will just happen over and over. Should people never take a stand when their rights have been violated because they're not a member of the status quo?

When it comes down to it, it's two beams that fell much in the way any grid of beams would fall in a building collapse. The fact that it's promoted as a miracle cross is where the problem lies.

1) ARGH! Why do rational people give a shit?!
2) Can't you just fake it and act like this piece of metal hasn't been turned into another powerful religious icon in an already very heated issue that involves religious fundamentalist?
3) You lost people who may be sympathetic which has no bearing on the law and your ultimate direction for this LAWSUIT not public opinion poll for funzies! Oh and they made a caustic point for a reason. However much anger it sparked, it's still a very valid point.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Saw that Bloomberg is not allowing Clergy of any type at Ground zero for the 10th anniv.

While I am not religious why are they not allowed? Its not one religion of people that were killed. Imams, Rabbis Priests ministers etc were there in the past.


There is no promoting of 1 religion exclusively.

[A.J.]

9/11 Memorial Curators Decide Not To Display Swastika Formed By Twisted Girders Found At Ground Zero (http://www.theonion.com/articles/911-memorial-curators-decide-not-to-display-swasti,21290/)