Should GM/Ford be allowed to fail?

[hanso]

yea only the GOP are whores to the military industrial complex. Democrats arent. How naive is that?


Look who's one of the biggest profiteers around.


http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/10/11/dianne-feinstein-war-profiteer/

They are the ones adding to the budget bill giving money to it while taking from the poor. It's an ongoing gag they pull on almost every monetary bill.

As far as this thread you are OK with millions put out of work just like a true republican.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

They are the ones adding to the budget bill giving money to it while taking from the poor. It's an ongoing gag they pull on almost every monetary bill.

As far as this thread you are OK with millions put out of work just like a true republican.

Have you ever met a bailout you didnt approve of?

GM Could have operated during bankruptcy. Obama just was concerned for his UAW handlers and said fuck you to the Bondholders I was against the Bank bailouts Fannie and Freddie and GM.


GM produced shitty cars that nobody wanted as a result with little demand.


What part arent you getting. GM is a losing bet but as usual you have faith that the federal government can just come in and rescue. Well we are at a loss of 24 billion and counting


Get off the Youre a Republican bandwagon please!!!! Do you forget how many times I have criticized them too? They want bigger gov't to suit their needs.


And its not just the GOP adding to the budget bill The Dems are adding to it just as much with their pet projects too.

[Syd]

http://www.remappingdebate.org/article/tale-two-systems?page=0,0

5.5 million cars built by workers that average $67.14/hour in wages and benefits versus 2.7 million cars built by workers that average $33.77/hour in wages and benefits.

Which numbers correlate to America, and which to Germany?

Proof that the greedy cunts in right-to-work states are only interested in lining their pockets, not creating a healthy economic future. So long as they have enough money to pump out ads causing lobsters to pull other lobsters back down into the boiling water I guess things won't change.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The cost of living in right to work states are lower for the most part. Lower local and property taxes and in some no state income tax

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Obamas albatross


http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/12/gm-general-motors-president-barack-obama-stock-loss-taxpayers/1

[spoon]

snore

any investment takes time and this play has multiple reasons behind it beyond simple financials

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This Obama fuckup which some call an investment is already in its 3rd year. How much money do you want to pour down the rathole?

We already have lost more than expected, its in the red 24 billion and still GM is producing shit cars. Another round of recalls in Chevys where brake pads are missing


Tell the GM Bondholders how good this "investment" was

[spoon]

everyone hurry, tap out on those 401k's now! 3 year max! especially in troubled economic times!

[Dude!]

everyone hurry, tap out on those 401k's now! 3 year max! especially in troubled economic times!

from march 2009
until 12/31/2011
the market is up 87%
(djia)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

everyone hurry, tap out on those 401k's now! 3 year max! especially in troubled economic times!

Are you still hoping that those JDS Uniphase shares and other tech bubble era stocks are going to climb back up ?

[Syd]

This Obama fuckup which some call an investment is already in its 3rd year. How much money do you want to pour down the rathole?

We already have lost more than expected, its in the red 24 billion and still GM is producing shit cars. Another round of recalls in Chevys where brake pads are missing


Tell the GM Bondholders how good this "investment" was

not to mess up your version of reality or anything, but generally speaking the consensus is that Bush re-directed funds from TARP to GM in December of 2008 rather than Obama re-directing funds from TARP to GM in December of 2008, which was something around one month before Obama was sworn in which most historians have come to agree upon being impossible since Obama wasn't president, and Bush was.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

not to mess up your version of reality or anything, but generally speaking the consensus is that Bush re-directed funds from TARP to GM in December of 2008 rather than Obama re-directing funds from TARP to GM in December of 2008, which was something around one month before Obama was sworn in which most historians have come to agree upon being impossible since Obama wasn't president, and Bush was.

Obama continued the bailout via TARP when taking over on 1/20/09 and Really hate to disappoint you, but Just because Bush started the bailouts doesnt make it right.. Obama just stepped on the accelerator in regards to the Auto bailout handing 60 billion more over

[Crispy123]

not to mess up your version of reality or anything, but generally speaking the consensus is that Bush re-directed funds from TARP to GM in December of 2008 rather than Obama re-directing funds from TARP to GM in December of 2008, which was something around one month before Obama was sworn in which most historians have come to agree upon being impossible since Obama wasn't president, and Bush was.
.

[Bob Impact]

not to mess up your version of reality or anything, but generally speaking the consensus is that Bush re-directed funds from TARP to GM in December of 2008 rather than Obama re-directing funds from TARP to GM in December of 2008, which was something around one month before Obama was sworn in which most historians have come to agree upon being impossible since Obama wasn't president, and Bush was.

There doesn't need to be some vague idea of a general consensus on this, here are the numbers: http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/entities/233-general-motors

[Bob Impact]

In fact, i'll make it easy for you.

GM got 13.4 billion from Bush in 2008.
GM declared bankruptcy on June 1, 2009.
GM got 30 billion from Obama in June, 2009.

[Crispy123]

Returned $22,827,582,658

That is easy.

[Bob Impact]

That is easy.

And yet not the post I was answering.

Seriously, you look for some partisan point in everything I post, I posted the facts behind what had been lent without a single bit of commentary on who gave them what.

[Bob Impact]

Also, I wouldn't be proclaiming any kind of success with $27 billion still out there.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Obamas own words


an “investment” that, in the long run, would cost taxpayers “not a dime.”



He's right. It only cost us a cool 24 billion and counting

[Crispy123]

Also, I wouldn't be proclaiming any kind of success with $27 billion still out there.

Thanks for giving us your opinion, instead of telling me what Im thinking.

WF I would love to see the transcripts of the speech where he said that.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Is Politico good enough ?



http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0709/Obama_streches_on_auto_bailout_repayment.html



Chrysler was also a loss. Those imported from Detroit commercials cant excuse the loss on that "investment"


Would anyone want this president managing their portfolio?

[Crispy123]

Is Politico good enough ?



http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0709/Obama_streches_on_auto_bailout_repayment.html



Chrysler was also a loss. Those imported from Detroit commercials cant excuse the loss on that "investment"


Would anyone want this president managing their portfolio?

No, your links to opinion pieces have been proven to be shit time and again. He never said that. I would love to see the transcripts where he did.

[Crispy123]

Here is a transcript of a speech President Obama DID give in Feb 2009:

As for our auto industry, everyone recognizes that years of bad decision-making and a global recession have pushed our automakers to the brink. We should not, and will not, protect them from their own bad practices. But we are committed to the goal of a re-tooled, re-imagined auto industry that can compete and win. Millions of jobs depend on it. Scores of communities depend on it. And I believe the nation that invented the automobile cannot walk away from it.

None of this will come without cost, nor will it be easy. But this is America. We don't do what's easy. We do what is necessary to move this country forward.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/obama_address_022409.html

The Politico blog got it wrong. Here is the townhall speech (http://www.wral.com/news/local/page/5681052/) from Jun 29, 09 that I guess he was referencing:

But in the midst of a recession, their collapse would have wreaked havoc across our economy. So I said, if GM and Chrysler were willing to do what was necessary to make themselves competitive; and if taxpayers were repaid every dime they put on the line – it was a process worth supporting. We saved hundreds of thousands of jobs as a result – and expect to get our money back.

They expect to get the money back. Political rhetoric to be sure, but a far cry from your quote of, "it won't cost taxpayers a dime."

[WRESTLINGFAN]

And these weren't Obama's words either ?

The link also has whitehouse.gov's words too.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/06/taxpayers-lost-644-billion-chrysler-bailout?utm_source=feedburner+BeltwayConfidential&utm_medium=feed+Beltway+Confidential&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BeltwayConfidential+%28Beltwa y+Confidential%29

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Here is a transcript of a speech President Obama DID give in Feb 2009:



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/obama_address_022409.html

The Politico blog got it wrong here is the townhall speech (http://www.wral.com/news/local/page/5681052/) from Jun 29, 09 that I guess he was referencing:



They expect to get the money back. Political rhetoric to be sure, but a far cry from your quote of, "it won't cost taxpayers a dime."



Let me know when you get your dividend check from the Chrysler bailout

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How is GM a success when its trading at around $20 a share? The price would have to be $53 a share to break even.


Anyone gullible to think a stock is going to have more than a 100% gain by November?

[Crispy123]

And these weren't Obama's words either ?

The link also has whitehouse.gov's words too.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/06/taxpayers-lost-644-billion-chrysler-bailout?utm_source=feedburner+BeltwayConfidential&utm_medium=feed+Beltway+Confidential&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BeltwayConfidential+%28Beltwa y+Confidential%29

Political rhetoric yes, but you Obama haters just love to throw the Bush TARP at Obama.

Notice the president — sounding very much like a used-car salesman — used the phrases "during my watch" and "under my watch" when describing the TARP loans as being "completely repaid." That's because Chrysler received $4 billion on Jan. 2, 2009, (18 days before Obama took office) and $8.5 billion on April 30 (when Obama was president), according to this Government Accountability Office report (page 9) on TARP.

The Obama administration claims that its investment in Chrysler has been "completely repaid" because the $10.6 billion repaid is larger than the $8.5 billion loan the company received while Obama was in office.

http://www.factcheck.org/2011/06/chrysler-paid-in-full/

[Crispy123]

Let me know when you get your dividend check from the Chrysler bailout

How is GM a success when its trading at around $20 a share? The price would have to be $53 a share to break even.


Anyone gullible to think a stock is going to have more than a 100% gain by November?

Hey when you get called on your bullshit time and again, just make shit up and argue that! Bravo!!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Hey when you get called on your bullshit time and again, just make shit up and argue that! Bravo!!!

Ok The Politico article, had different words, I'll give you that. However,

Way to dodge the fact that 2 companies are net losses to taxpayers. But you Obama supporters will defend pouring more money down a rathole.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Political rhetoric yes, but you Obama haters just love to throw the Bush TARP at Obama.



http://www.factcheck.org/2011/06/chrysler-paid-in-full/

Show me where I defended any of the Bush bailouts.

[Crispy123]

Ok The Politico article, had different words, I'll give you that. However,

Way to dodge the fact that 2 companies are net losses to taxpayers. But you Obama supporters will defend pouring more money down a rathole.

How about the fact you "quoted" Obama's own words???

You Obama haters love to put words in other peoples mouths and make shit up to argue when you can't defend your point.

[Crispy123]

Show me where I defended any of the Bush bailouts.

I'll show you where you tried to link the Bush bailouts to a hit on Obama.

And these weren't Obama's words either ?

The link also has whitehouse.gov's words too.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/06/taxpayers-lost-644-billion-chrysler-bailout?utm_source=feedburner+BeltwayConfidential&utm_medium=feed+Beltway+Confidential&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BeltwayConfidential+%28Beltwa y+Confidential%29

Are you ready to admit you don't read the links that you post?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Paying back loans. Im sure Chrysler used this trick just like GM



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SOaS2SymjQ4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Crispy123]

Paying back loans. Im sure Chrysler used this trick just like GM

You Obama haters love to put words in other peoples mouths and make shit up to argue when you can't defend your point.

...

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I'll show you where you tried to link the Bush bailouts to a hit on Obama.



Are you ready to admit you don't read the links that you post?


May 2009: Chrysler receives a $1.9 billion debtor in possession loan from the Treasury Department
June 2009: Chrysler receives a $6.6 billion loan from the Treasury Department

May and June. Bush is no longer president



Obama touted successes in 2 Companies when both are losers

[Crispy123]

May 2009: Chrysler receives a $1.9 billion debtor in possession loan from the Treasury Department
June 2009: Chrysler receives a $6.6 billion loan from the Treasury Department

May and June. Bush is no longer president



Obama touted successes in 2 Companies when both are losers

What he said was, the loans given by HIS administration were repaid. He was being a weasel politician, but he was also RIGHT.

http://www.factcheck.org/2011/06/chrysler-paid-in-full/

You Obama haters love to put words in other peoples mouths and make shit up to argue when you can't defend your point.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

In a nutshell the claim of paying back loans is fuzzy math and phony accounting. Those loans were used from unused TARP money, in other words a giant escrow account.

[Crispy123]

In a nutshell, the right wing lunatics can't stand a black man in office and blatantly make shit up, attribute it to the President, and when called on the bullshit, try to change the subject to more bullshit lies.

The guy is not great. But the last 3 years have been better than the 8 before.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

His white half is as just as incompetent

[Crispy123]

His white half is as just as incompetent

Not nearly as incompetent as the white guy he replaced or any of the whitey's trying to get the Republitard nomination.

[Bob Impact]

You're an oddly angry person.

[Crispy123]

Personally, I think it must be something they put in the water up there in Connecticut.

[Bob Impact]

I meant you.

But yes, as a resident of Connecticut, I can attest to the fact that the water supply up here makes people insane.


Either that or the unrelenting sense of entitlement.

[Crispy_Mobile]

So exactly what's odd?

[spoon]

As for our auto industry, everyone recognizes that years of bad decision-making and a global recession have pushed our automakers to the brink. We should not, and will not, protect them from their own bad practices. But we are committed to the goal of a re-tooled, re-imagined auto industry that can compete and win. Millions of jobs depend on it. Scores of communities depend on it. And I believe the nation that invented the automobile cannot walk away from it.

None of this will come without cost, nor will it be easy. But this is America. We don't do what's easy. We do what is necessary to move this country forward.

Just imagine how much was saved in unemployment benefits, lost taxes on those employees that then kept their jobs and so many other tangential lines not even expressed boldly here in any way. This industry surely has it's faults becoming archaic in its design and approach, but this bailout sat better with me than that of the very financial industry the helped cause the majority of our overall problems in that area. Still, I get WHY it was done and agree the recession would have been MUCH worse if it wasn't, perhaps even a full on depression.

The hole that was dug here is still very deep and takes time to fill/fix. Saying the investment/bailout, as large as it was, should be repaid this quick is pretty aggressive and people are surely using it for agendas...that much is clear. The stock if is and will be hampered for growth not only by the bailout issue, payback, lack of dividends, but also the industry as a whole.

[spoon]

So exactly what's odd?

Where to start?

ok, here goes...

Kevin's grammar, Dude's posting style, Disney's everything and of course epo's skin tone.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Personally, I think it must be something they put in the water up there in Connecticut.

Youre partly right. They elected Dick Blumenthal the war hero

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The auto companies could have operated under bankruptcy protection while restructuring its debt and obligations. This was simply the government picking winners and losers as they did with the financial industry. Sure there would have still been job losses but this opened up a slippery slope. If another industry say for example journalism went under they would ask for a bailout too. This auto bailout was simply throwing good money after bad.


We will never recoup our losses, bond holders were fucked over and it was a winner for the UAW. GM continues to produce cars that nobody wants.

[Crispy123]

Where to start?

ok, here goes...

Kevin's grammar, Dude's posting style, Disney's everything and of course epo's skin tone.

Good point! (I think that may be the first time that's been said in this thread.)

[Bob Impact]

Good point! (I think that may be the first time that's been said in this thread.)
That's probably true. That said...
Just imagine how much was saved in unemployment benefits, lost taxes on those employees that then kept their jobs and so many other tangential lines not even expressed boldly here in any way. This industry surely has it's faults becoming archaic in its design and approach, but this bailout sat better with me than that of the very financial industry the helped cause the majority of our overall problems in that area. Still, I get WHY it was done and agree the recession would have been MUCH worse if it wasn't, perhaps even a full on depression.

The hole that was dug here is still very deep and takes time to fill/fix. Saying the investment/bailout, as large as it was, should be repaid this quick is pretty aggressive and people are surely using it for agendas...that much is clear. The stock if is and will be hampered for growth not only by the bailout issue, payback, lack of dividends, but also the industry as a whole.

Most of this falls under "good point" to me. With the added note of "it's also really ironic that the government selling it's stock in GM is one of the many factors keeping the price depressed as once the gov. sells it will dilute the stock."

[spoon]

Yah, forgot to put that thanks. The gov honestly should hold on but probably won't as the Obama admin has this double edge sword to deal with. One one end the GOP is going to come at him like WF is here for the bailout and where it is currently (payback/owed/in the red). On the other, if he feels the pressure and does sell it off completely you'll see those "theoretical losses" as they are right now, instantly realized and I think it's the wrong move the GOP wants to force. Either way Obama will hear it from the GOP on this, stand your ground and do the right thing by the country in the face of some heat. It's going to be there in one form or another regardless.

[spoon]

Good point machine over here!

[Bob Impact]

Like a fuckin' double barreled pencil sharpener.

[spoon]

:laugh:

[JPMNICK]

That's probably true. That said...


Most of this falls under "good point" to me. With the added note of "it's also really ironic that the government selling it's stock in GM is one of the many factors keeping the price depressed as once the gov. sells it will dilute the stock."

Do they hold common shares of the stock? Is there somewhere that lists how many shares of the stock are out there?

Do they have options and timelines of when they can sell?

[Syd]

That's probably true. That said...


Most of this falls under "good point" to me. With the added note of "it's also really ironic that the government selling it's stock in GM is one of the many factors keeping the price depressed as once the gov. sells it will dilute the stock."

Hard to say how much of an impact it will make; GM's sales are up across the board and especially in China. Until China's domestic auto industry really gains a footing, they represent one of the most lucrative brands in one of the fastest growing auto industries in the world. There's still people itching to get on board with that, at least.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Bad year for the volt


http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-57352046-54/chevy-volt-misses-first-year-sales-target/

[spoon]

Bad year for the volt


http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-57352046-54/chevy-volt-misses-first-year-sales-target/

Companies often set stretch goals, especially with new products in newer segments of markets such as these. However, December was it's best month with the car only just getting into its second year on the market. Most smart car buyers give new models a year or two before buying into it, based on ironing out the bugs and being convinced they'll stick with it as a brand. Factor in this is a newer tech/design in terms of how they run and you have a perfect storm of reasons for a slow start. I think it's been a pretty successful launch they can and should build off, but it's clear you just hate anything tied to green energy, especially investment into it and when it's tied to the bailouts and Obama.

Oh and this...Although the Volt attracts a lot of media attention, its muted sales volume is less significant to GM's overall financial picture since it represents a tiny portion of overall volume. The National Highway Safety is still investigating the cause of a Volt catching fire three weeks after a side-impact crash test.
GM said that other cars designed for better efficiency attracted buyers last year. The company highlighted a 42 percent increase in the December sales of the Chevrolet Sonic subcompact and 54 percent increase in sales of the Cruze. Overall sales were up 14 percent in calendar year 2011.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Even with the $7500 tax credit and a motor trend car of the year award it still fell short.

[spoon]

Even with the $7500 tax credit and a motor trend car of the year award it still fell short.

so basically you're calling people stupid and you think the car and it's benefits are awesome?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

By a slim margin people would rather buy Nissan Leafs.

http://www.green.autoblog.com/2011/10/03/nissan-leaf-still-beats-chevy-volt-in-september-2011-u-s-sales/

[spoon]

Even with the $7500 tax credit and a motor trend car of the year award it still fell short.

and yes, one can always set unrealistic goals and not hit them no matter how good a product is. Take the ipad for example, what's the line there? Apple just lowered it's ipad 2 sales forecast, is it now a piece of shit not worth backing/future investment?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

so basically you're calling people stupid and you think the car and it's benefits are awesome?

No!!!!!


Thats money taken from taxpayers to prop up sales. Isnt the gov't involved too much in GM to begin with?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

and yes, one can always set unrealistic goals and not hit them no matter how good a product is. Take the ipad for example, what's the line there? Apple just lowered it's ipad 2 sales forecast, is it now a piece of shit not worth backing/future investment?

Did Steve Jobs take tens of billions from the federal government?


Look at AAPL stock compared to GM.

[StanUpshaw]

Spoon, why do you love fascism?

[spoon]

No!!!!!


Thats money taken from taxpayers to prop up sales. Isnt the gov't involved too much in GM to begin with?

isn't it partially their company, so you think they shouldn't be actively involved at all?

[spoon]

Spoon, why do you love fascism?

do I stan?

do I really?

[Bob Impact]

Do they hold common shares of the stock? Is there somewhere that lists how many shares of the stock are out there?

Do they have options and timelines of when they can sell?
There's a 500 million shares number that gets tossed around but I wasn't able to verify that with a cursory Google search, you would think it would be public knowledge considering it's our money, in either case it's a 31% stake in the company so do the math cause i'm too lazy. I would imagine that's a mix of mostly common and some preferred stock. The number being tossed around is upper $30s - low $40s for the gov. to break even, but yes they could theoretically sell everything tomorrow, slowly release portions into the market or hold and sell much later, all with obnoxious political ramifications that have little to nothing to do with the actual economics of it all.

Hard to say how much of an impact it will make; GM's sales are up across the board and especially in China. Until China's domestic auto industry really gains a footing, they represent one of the most lucrative brands in one of the fastest growing auto industries in the world. There's still people itching to get on board with that, at least.

Very true, although much like the Russians there's a ton of cheap domestic knock offs available. That said, we're not talking pure logic or economics here, we're talking about the irrational idiots in stock exchanges around the world, the perception of weakness is more than enough for them to keep the price down.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

isn't it partially their company, so you think they shouldn't be actively involved at all?

So to hell with the others like me who was forced into this ?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The crown jewel of GM is being recalled

http://www.freep.com/article/20120105/BUSINESS0101/120105006/1205/business01/GM-strengthen-Chevrolet-Volt-battery-packs-dealerships-assembly-line-wake-fires

[Syd]

I love how a worst case scenario and Luddite blow-back has sent it to a recall. This is why we can't have nice things like flywheel energy storage in common road-going cars because people like WF flip out when they read about what happens to potential energy in an accident.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Worst product award goes to.....



http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj145/edberryjr/2011_chevrolet_volt_obama_drive_main.jpg







http://nlpc.org/stories/2011/12/29/chevy-volt-gets-another-award-gm-supporters-attack


And....... They might be made in China eventually

[Syd]

UAW Local 22 President, George McGregor, responded to Romney's suggestion that the Volt was not quite ready for prime time. MLive.com quotes McGregor as saying, "It's not an idea that is ahead of its time, it's behind its time. It should have been here (years ago) so we wouldn't be dependent on foreign oil." Democratic Michigan Congressman, Hansen Clarke, chimed in, "We want to promote innovation like the Chevy Volt," he added, "We want to promote manufacturing and innovation. We don't want to look at ways to criticize it and stifle it." I wonder if Rep. Clarke knows about GM's plans to move Volt technology to China. Another telling quote on the philosophy of those like Clarke who feel our government (i.e., the taxpayer) needs to be heavily involved in the private sector came when he stated, "Throughout history, the government has been behind the innovation of great products and technology. Government support is key."

There's the key. As even the IEA noted, we're past the point of peak oil production. We're running out....which leads into this:

t seems the promise of job creation for taxpayer funded green initiatives, such as the Chevy Volt development, is partially being kept. The only problem is that many of those jobs are going to China. General Motors confirmed last week that it would develop an electric vehicle platform in China. USA Today reports that GM Vice Chairman, Steve Girsky, stated that GM and Chinese auto company, SAIC, will develop a new electric vehicle that would draw upon the Chevy Volt's technology. Girsky also hinted that future Chevy Volts will be built in China in order to qualify for Chinese subsidies of about $19,000 per car. Girsky claims that neither China nor SAIC are demanding that GM share Volt technology. Whether they are demanding it or not, it is obvious that they will get it.

It'll be built in China to take advantage of subsidies; welcome to capitalism. It will still be built domestically but GM isn't going to simply not sell it in China because a bunch of people who want to live in caves and afraid of technology don't want a country that is aggressively pursuing green technology to have access to high efficiency cars. Also, since it didn't make much of a wave on Drudge, GM just nixed a deal involving Saab specifically because it would have involved letting go of some GM technology. I doubt all of a sudden they'll give up something they've spent even more R&D money on to the Chinese, no matter how much Rush says so.

Anyway, after getting involved now with the solar industry it's pretty plain to see that America is steadily on the decline while China is quickly surpassing us in energy generation capacity. In an energy-expensive yet energy-intensive future, the bickering over renewable energy caused by cavemen and slaves to the coal industry is the real Nero fiddling while Rome burns.

But, hey, at least the Chevy Volt earned the worst product award by a second hand rag so that the cavemen can all beat their clubs on the ground about it. Well, that might represent technology, so just beat their hamhock fists against the ground about it instead.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

There's the key. As even the IEA noted, we're past the point of peak oil production. We're running out....which leads into this:



It'll be built in China to take advantage of subsidies; welcome to CRONY capitalism. It will still be built domestically but GM isn't going to simply not sell it in China because a bunch of people who want to live in caves and afraid of technology don't want a country that is aggressively pursuing green technology to have access to high efficiency cars. Also, since it didn't make much of a wave on Drudge, GM just nixed a deal involving Saab specifically because it would have involved letting go of some GM technology. I doubt all of a sudden they'll give up something they've spent even more R&D money on to the Chinese, no matter how much Rush says so.

Anyway, after getting involved now with the solar industry it's pretty plain to see that America is steadily on the decline while China is quickly surpassing us in energy generation capacity. In an energy-expensive yet energy-intensive future, the bickering over renewable energy caused by cavemen and slaves to the coal industry is the real Nero fiddling while Rome burns.

But, hey, at least the Chevy Volt earned the worst product award by a second hand rag so that the cavemen can all beat their clubs on the ground about it. Well, that might represent technology, so just beat their hamhock fists against the ground about it instead.



Chevy Volt won the award because nobody wants it. And it took a 7500 tax credit to peddle it and with all the subsidies and taxpayer money thrown into it. Its a failure.


This administration boasts that its a technological breakthru at 40 grand but being subsidized at 250g's


All that money subsidized to prop up a product and awful results in sales.

[Syd]

Chevy Volt won the award because nobody wants it. And it took a 7500 tax credit to peddle it and with all the subsidies and taxpayer money thrown into it. Its a failure.


This administration boasts that its a technological breakthru at 40 grand but being subsidized at 250g's


All that money subsidized to prop up a product and awful results in sales.

Sales were pretty good; there were a lot of limitations in supply. It won the award because Yahoo finance is looking to drive ad revenue and it gets easy hits. Same goes for Jalopnik's recent EV hit piece. It's easy to get right wing luddites to get all in a tizzy because they're essentially lazy people who don't want to work for anything; they just expect a solution to be dropped into their laps. That's the difference between America and China right now -- the former is fine being corpulent and the latter wants to work for it. When the inevitable shift toward a Chinese hegemony happens, people will look back at China embracing the future and America being shit scared of it because of bogus $250k numbers because, again, it drives ad revenue by simple minded people looking for simple answers to the bigger issues this country faces.

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/250k-chevy-volt-subsidy-claim-bogus-says-thestreetcom

Read that article and understand how people are just trying to scam you, make money off of you. The same way they claim Obama is, they're doing the same.

The guy that started the hit piece (I'd love to hear who paid him to write it) can't even do simple fucking math either:

An article on TheStreet.com, after quibbling a bit over the $3 billion total, says it simply doesn't matter what the total grants and loans package is. The quibble is that $3 billion divided by 6000 is $500,000 per car, not the $250,000 per car they cite, making us wonder about Hohman's abilities with basic math.

Exxon got their moneys worth, sure, but it's just such a ridiculously false statement that can't even pass a fact check by a calculator.

But, hey, that's why Obama will have another 4 years. Everyone is so desperate to be "not Obama" that they're forgetting about "not Bush" in '08.

[spoon]

Worst product award goes to.....



http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj145/edberryjr/2011_chevrolet_volt_obama_drive_main.jpg

what a completely unbiased sight from the start







http://nlpc.org/stories/2011/12/29/chevy-volt-gets-another-award-gm-supporters-attack


And....... They might be made in China eventually

what a completely unbiased sight from the start, then one just looks further into (http://nlpc.org/)

Charles B. Stockdale too? Ok, you're kidding now right?

[Jujubees2]

GM reclaims global sales crown (http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/19/10192000-gm-reclaims-global-sales-crown)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So will they start repaying the tens of billions they still owe?


Stock is up to about $24 but its still a net loss to taxpayers

[disneyspy]

So will they start repaying the tens of billions they still owe?


Stock is up to about $24 but its still a net loss to taxpayers

wrong again,most of that loan was converted to stock,the 8 billion was repaid(5 years ahead of schedule) and with the stock price rising the taxpayers will actually make a profit when the govt sells the stock,do you even read?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

wrong again,most of that loan was converted to stock,the 8 billion was repaid(5 years ahead of schedule) and with the stock price rising the taxpayers will actually make a profit when the govt sells the stock,do you even read?

Wrong


Those so called repayments were from an escrow account from TARP.


I'll post again


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SOaS2SymjQ4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

GM is learning very well from the gov't on fuzzy math and trick accounting.


The stock needs to reach $53 before taxpayers break even. Its still a loss.

[disneyspy]

its been at a loss,posting a bloggers lame explanation doesnt make your argument better,loan repaid,stock price rising FROM A LOW OF 1 DOLLAR,most cars sold in the world than any other car maker,escrow money was NOT used,i dont care what your lame ass foxnews sites say,i know theyve rehired alot of people and they're making money and their stock prices are showing that,chicken little

[Dude!]

its been at a loss,posting a bloggers lame explanation doesnt make your argument better,loan repaid,stock price rising FROM A LOW OF 1 DOLLAR,most cars sold in the world than any other car maker,escrow money was NOT used,i dont care what your lame ass foxnews sites say,i know theyve rehired alot of people and they're making money and their stock prices are showing that,chicken little

you should apply for a job
at GM

or anywhere

[disneyspy]

you should apply for a job
at GM

or anywhere

why? it's not like we're dating and i need to buy you nice things

[Crispy123]

why? it's not like we're dating and i need to buy you nice things

Dipshit! meant you should get a blowjob from his grandmother.

[hanso]

GM reclaims global sales crown (http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/19/10192000-gm-reclaims-global-sales-crown)

It's like posting to a brick wall on this thread. ( WF )

[spoon]

Dipshit! meant you should get a blowjob from his grandmother.

:lol:

[Dude!]

DS...no need to settle for
a blowjob from my toothless
grandma when there are
younger women ready to do
you and a friend of your choice

...cheating on me with 2 dudes

[Syd]

its been at a loss,posting a bloggers lame explanation doesnt make your argument better,loan repaid,stock price rising FROM A LOW OF 1 DOLLAR,most cars sold in the world than any other car maker,escrow money was NOT used,i dont care what your lame ass foxnews sites say,i know theyve rehired alot of people and they're making money and their stock prices are showing that,chicken little

WF doesn't want any durable goods made in America, thus ensuring our standard of livings continually decrease to the point that Mexicans no longer immigrate here.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GM is still a loser for taxpayers. Their stock price didn't recover. That $34 was an IPO and they are trading at $25.


I want manufacturing but not subsidized to the tune of a $60 billion bailout.

Our economy sucks so much even the Mexicans aren't coming as much as they used to

[Syd]

do you understand the importance of building durable goods and keeping the money within America, rather than shipping it off to a foreign nation?

We can't really have an economy based on selling pizzas to each other -- even Dukakis had that figured out.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

do you understand that I do not want to bail companies out with shitty business models?

[Syd]

Shitty how? Because they offshore every single job in America or otherwise participate in a race to the bottom that ultimately guts the middle class of America? Look at how fucking terrible the rust belt, meth belt, bible belt and the rest of the South is. It's destitute poverty intermixed with meth labs and WalMarts. That isn't a tenable business model either because eventually those states will be too poor to afford to be anything other than mud farmers. Not even then, because they're all too fat and lazy to work in the field (see Georgia or whatever backwater state clamped down on illegal immigration and now no one is there to farm, other than migrant workers which are still illegal immigrants with a phony "legal" veneer)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yes a shitty business model in the 70s and 80s building products nobody wanted. Add in legacy costs per vehicle etc and you got to the point where GM went bankrupt.

Obama violated bankruptcy laws by caving into his handlers in the UAW union and fucking over bondholders

Poverty isnt just limited to the south as states with inner cities, thru the great society has produced generational poverty, dependence on taxpayers and more money pissed into social programs.

The states cracking down on illegal aliens have had people replacing them, for example a chicken processing plant in Alabama has had American workers replacing illegal aliens.

[Gvac]

Toyotas are built in Kentucky.

Hondas are built in Ohio.

Kias are built in Georgia.

Hyundais are built in Alabama.

Nissans and VWs are built in Tennessee.

Just sayin'.

[Gvac]

And once you get outside of the major cities and farms, there are poverty stricken people living in shacks in every state, including New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, etc.

It's not just a Southern problem.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Toyotas are built in Kentucky.

Hondas are built in Ohio.

Kias are built in Georgia.

Hyundais are built in Alabama.

Nissans and VWs are built in Tennessee.

Just sayin'.

Different Industry but Boeings could have been built in SC but the NLRB Blocked that

[Crispy123]

Different Industry but Boeings could have been built in SC but the NLRB Blocked that

seriously, when are we going to learn to deregulate and just blindly trust defense contractors in this country? The Socialists need to realize that the only way jobs are going to come back to this country is if we let them do whatever they want.

[Syd]

Different Industry but Boeings could have been built in SC but the NLRB Blocked that

You know that was because Boeing was trying to break the law, right? NLRB stepped up to a corporation and pointed out that they were trying to reneg on a contract. Odd that someone who is all about freedom and the rule of law is totally fine with quashing freedom that doesn't adhere to your political beliefs. Then again, cognitive dissonance certainly does go hand-in-hand with conservative "beliefs"

Yes a shitty business model in the 70s and 80s building products nobody wanted. Add in legacy costs per vehicle etc and you got to the point where GM went bankrupt.

Obama violated bankruptcy laws by caving into his handlers in the UAW union and fucking over bondholders

Poverty isnt just limited to the south as states with inner cities, thru the great society has produced generational poverty, dependence on taxpayers and more money pissed into social programs.

The states cracking down on illegal aliens have had people replacing them, for example a chicken processing plant in Alabama has had American workers replacing illegal aliens.

Shitty business model building products nobody wanted? They were building exactly what the consumer wanted: behemoth SUVs to park in their mcmansion driveways. Katrina hit and everyone realized a 14mpg Suburban in the suburbs for their 80 mile daily commute wasn't as cute as it sounded.

Poverty isn't just limited in the south, but it's concentrated in the rust belt/meth belt/dirty south because in the post-Civil War era, the north never bothered to rebuild the south which caused electrification, roads and railroads to be heavily delayed and no jobs other than subsistence farming and sharecropping to be available till WPA came in and finally brought most of America into the 20th century. But, hey, we'd have to admit that the New Deal along with the chicken tariff (i.e., government intervention) was the main reason why some people in the South were able to crawl out of poverty :flush:

http://dougwallace.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/U_S_PovertyMap-e1285854167442.jpg

Toyotas are built in Kentucky.

Hondas are built in Ohio.

Kias are built in Georgia.

Hyundais are built in Alabama.

Nissans and VWs are built in Tennessee.

Just sayin'.

Just sayin' what? That they were given extensive tax breaks to assemble cars here because US labor is more expensive than in Canada or other first world nations due to healthcare costs? Or are you saying that the "chicken tariff" was effective at forcing companies to employ US workers to build light trucks? Or are you saying that due to the nature of depressed wages in those states it's cheaper to build them there than in a state with a more robust economy? Lack of corporate controls and effective unionization created a race to the bottom for American industry which guts the middle class because the only way for social mobility to exist is for workers to create durable goods and earn high wages by doing so unless you count winning the lotto or getting lucky in a casino to be a form of effective social mobility.

Toyota's plant in KY produces light cars -- not necessarily tariff related but they did receive nearly $400mn in tax breaks.

Honda's US plants almost exclusively produce light trucks to circumvent the chicken tariff, but they did receive tax breaks and also produce North America only models, such as SUVs and crossovers.

Ditto for Kia's West Point factory.

Nissan's factory is in MS, received major tax breaks and builds NA only models.

VW in Chattanooga received nearly $500mn in tax breaks, in addition to using a 3rd world model of assembly with the bulk of the cars being put together by unskilled labor.

So basically, when people advocate shit like that they advocate welfare handouts to corporations, a race to the bottom which destroys the middle class and advocates government intervention in ~*the free market*~

[WRESTLINGFAN]

seriously, when are we going to learn to deregulate and just blindly trust defense contractors in this country? The Socialists need to realize that the only way jobs are going to come back to this country is if we let them do whatever they want.

They were going to build the 787 passanger planes in SC

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The union contract never required the 787 to be built in Washington State. The Union overreached when they wanted a seat on Boeings board and a guarantee that all planes would be built in WA. The talks broke down btwn the union and Boeing.


SC has more friendly labor laws than WA

Speaking of the NLRB Obama makes appointments when the Senate isn't in recess.

[Crispy123]

Like I said, blind trust in multinational defense contractors is what this country needs (2nd only to blind trust in oil companies and their pipelines). Im very upset that they signed a labor contract with the union to settle the dispute.

Thank God we at least have Congress looking out for us with pro-forma, that darky likes to play trix on America.

[Bob Impact]

So basically, when people advocate shit like that they advocate welfare handouts to corporations, a race to the bottom which destroys the middle class and advocates government intervention in ~*the free market*~

Just to be clear, because you seem to not understand how this works:
1) A tax break is not a hand out, it's the government NOT taking money. If I decide you owe me $1,000 but decide that I'll accept $500 instead I didn't GIVE you $500.

2) Not advocating a bailout for GM does not imply any of the things you seem to think it implies.

[Crispy123]

Just to be clear, because you seem to not understand how this works:
1) A tax break is not a hand out, it's the government NOT taking money. If I decide you owe me $1,000 but decide that I'll accept $500 instead I didn't GIVE you $500.

A. Tax schedules are not arbitrary numbers and most corporations get multiple breaks from all levels of government (Fed, state, county, etc.).

B. If something costs $1000 and you only pay $500.00 you have to report $500.00 in income.

C. It is very much a handout or "corporate welfare."

[hanso]

And you can bet cuts were made to allow it. Education has been at the top of the chopping block.

[hanso]

do you understand that I do not want to bail companies out with shitty business models?

They were restructuring at the time business and product model.

[Syd]

Just to be clear, because you seem to not understand how this works:
1) A tax break is not a hand out, it's the government NOT taking money. If I decide you owe me $1,000 but decide that I'll accept $500 instead I didn't GIVE you $500.

2) Not advocating a bailout for GM does not imply any of the things you seem to think it implies.

It's advocating corporate welfare and government intervention. A tax break is a hand out because it's not offered to everyone. All those state governments valued those companies over existing ones; instead of offering the tax break to all companies within its borders that had already established themselves as viable, it rewarded specific ones based solely upon them just saying they'll be viable. When Kansas sought to create a corporate tax haven for Sprint, they willfully ignored other local businesses and bent over backwards to please Sprint -- that money was lost, only offered to be re-paid in the future through taxes. Yet, when it came to pay the piper, Sprint skipped town so to speak and didn't return anywhere near the promise they had made when the deal was cut. You're right that if you owed me $1000, and I tell you that I'll take $500, but I still want $1000 from WF, that's a handout to you specifically neglecting any notion of "free markets" and willfully condoning planned economy. Hell, I'm pretty left of the center and I don't even have anywhere near the Deng Xiaoping based beliefs as you. You're way, way, way the fuck out there.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

They were restructuring at the time business and product model.

At the tune of tens of billions of tax dollars.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Tax breaks arent permanent, they usually have a specific amount of years applied.

Why not take advantage of them? If a state offers a more business friendly environment then they would be crazy if they didnt relocate.


someone who is paying 15k in property taxes in NY. If a town in TX has property taxes of 3K a year thats the advantage to the homeowner who relocates.

[Syd]

Tax breaks arent permanent, they usually have a specific amount of years applied.

Why not take advantage of them? If a state offers a more business friendly environment then they would be crazy if they didnt relocate.


someone who is paying 15k in property taxes in NY. If a town in TX has property taxes of 3K a year thats the advantage to the homeowner who relocates.

Why not offer the tax breaks to all companies, rather than entering in a bidding war with other states? I'm not blaming the corporations since they're only motive is to produce higher profits every quarter. I'm blaming the politicians for fucking over states by slashing budgets and removing social safety nets so that they can hold onto a corporation up until the tax breaks are over and then they pull up their tent stakes and move to another state.

Politicians are more interested in generating temporary wealth and fame for themselves than they are for creating viable businesses. For all the tears over Obama bailing out GM, there are a myriad of GOP officials who are equally complicit in propping up failed companies.

Also your analogy is wrong; corporations aren't people and aren't analogous unless people can create bonds, stocks and form s-corps to dodge taxes. Also, people generally have to have jobs and moving from NY to TX isn't easy.

[hanso]

Tax breaks in states are not the end all be all for companies setting up shop. Other factors like quality of life factor in. There should be some kinda cap that states can offer. After all the cuts made to allow for it take away from the quality of life for said states.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If a state offers tax breaks and decides to raise the budget for some social program 5% instead of 10% how is the quality of life going down?

Or something like this...


http://www.kansas.com/2012/01/22/2186227/illegal-immigrants-kids-cut-from.html


Sorry senor illegal, you broke the law you find a way to feed your own kids.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Wasnt there a no strike clause as part of the bailout?


http://www.freep.com/article/20120127/BUSINESS01/120127020/UAW-workers-GM-strike-Kansas?odyssey=nav%7Chead

[furie]

Yes.

http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2011/09/reports_gm_chrysler_poised_to.html

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Fuck em then. Padlock the place and fire them. GM is still majority owned by taxpayers.

[Syd]

Fuck em then. Padlock the place and fire them. GM is still majority owned by taxpayers.

I love how someone who loves freedom is so ready to trample anyone elses' freedom they don't agree with. I also applaud you keeping Pinochet's awful political opinions alive.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I love how someone who loves freedom is so ready to trample anyone elses' freedom they don't agree with. I also applaud you keeping Pinochet's awful political opinions alive.

The UAW, waived its freedoms when it agreed not to strike. That means union bosses and rank and file members approved the contract.

That plant should be padlocked since we the taxpayers are on the hook for 500mm shares and a net loss of 24 billion

Since you want to talk freedom, What about mine when I was made an investor in a commpany against my will.


Guess contracts mean nothing. Which 3rd world banana republic do you want to emulate? Viva La Revolucion

[Syd]

you can't waive freedoms, they're an inalienable right in America

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Freedoms cant be taken away, but they can be waived if a party agrees to a contract


Ok youre free not to pay your mortgage so what are the implications then? You agreed to a contract. The bank is free to foreclose


Same for the UAW. They agreed not to strike, As management, we the taxpayers are free to fire them

[spoon]

you can't waive freedoms, they're an inalienable right in America

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[WRESTLINGFAN]

Fuck contracts, This is America maaaaaaaannnnnnnn

[Syd]

Freedoms cant be taken away, but they can be waived if a party agrees to a contract

You can't sign a contract to waive your right to free speech, no matter how hard I wish you'd try. It's an natural right, an "inalienable" right, not a legal right. You're free to sign away legal rights (i.e. power of attorney) but under no circumstance would any contract be remotely valid if you tried to give up your free speech.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You can't sign a contract to waive your right to free speech, no matter how hard I wish you'd try. It's an natural right, an "inalienable" right, not a legal right. You're free to sign away legal rights (i.e. power of attorney) but under no circumstance would any contract be remotely valid if you tried to give up your free speech.

You are voluntarily giving up a right as compared to having your rights taken from you by force. The right to pursue happiness exists but not at another persons expense. The declaration is just a founding document, but the constitution is law.

When 2 parties agree to a contract that is binding , now that contract can be amended if there is an agreement or voided if someone breaks that contract

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Not a good month for the volt or electric vehicles, but the volts suck more


http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57370232-76/chevy-volt-sales-take-a-hit/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

[spoon]

General Motors said yesterday it sold 603 Volts in January of this year, more than the 321 it sold in January last year.

So they didn't hit all-time highs in back to back months...after the holidays no less so I'm sure your hyperbole isn't intentional right?

In the scheme of overall sales volume, the Leaf and Volt represent a small fraction. For every Leaf Nissan sells, it sells more than 14 Rogue crossover SUVs, for example. But battery electric vehicles and hybrids help automakers meet fuel economy mandates and are considered strategic technology for the future.

Why would you understand this? I guess you'd like US automakers to fall behind more with newer tech packages here and abroad.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So they didn't hit all-time highs in back to back months...after the holidays no less so I'm sure your hyperbole isn't intentional right?



Why would you understand this? I guess you'd like US automakers to fall behind more with newer tech packages here and abroad.

Ever hear of something called demand?


I dont want automakers getting bailed out to the tune of tens of billions of dollars and being lied to that they paid back their loans.

[spoon]

Ever hear of something called demand?


I dont want automakers getting bailed out to the tune of tens of billions of dollars and being lied to that they paid back their loans.

small fraction...what part of that don't you get? and like I said, GM surely weren't expecting increased sales over their volume from last month's record sales. jan2011 to jan2012 is a better indicator of market growth or decline, not two different months clearly impacted by the holiday season, not to mention a fix for the car itself. you know, obvious factors you just seem to leave out.

also, lied to? this again? just bc you parrot this bs all day doesn't make it right as the stock continues to climb mind you.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

small fraction...what part of that don't you get?

also, lied to? this again? just bc you parrot this bs all day doesn't make it right as the stock continues to climb mind you.

Yes lied to. Ive posted the explanation how they so called paid their loans.


We are still in the red. And according to the Treas dept we will never recoup our losses

[spoon]

Yes lied to. Ive posted the explanation how they so called paid their loans.


We are still in the red. And according to the Treas dept we will never recoup our losses

and all that was burned to the ground all fifty times you posted it, the youtube bs and or links from CLASSIC WF sources. it's not over, we own a growing stock and the company is just now getting its feet under it. the automotive industry seemingly is now saved, along with a whole lot of jobs and manufacturing in there as well. Thousands have been kept off extended unemployment and so many other additive factors that would have cost the country. it's not perfect, but it's working and we have a lot of value back in the stocks alone. the us gov needs to stand pat for a while and recoup all the value by not tapping out too fast on the stock at a loss since the pubs are trying to put them in a no win situation for simple political gain at the expense of our country's solvency

[WRESTLINGFAN]

and all that was burned to the ground all fifty times you posted it, the youtube bs and or links from CLASSIC WF sources. it's not over, we own a growing stock and the company is just now getting its feet under it. the automotive industry seemingly is now saved, along with a whole lot of jobs and manufacturing in there as well. Thousands have been kept off extended unemployment and so many other additive factors that would have cost the country. it's not perfect, but it's working and we have a lot of value back in the stocks alone. the us gov needs to stand pat for a while and recoup all the value by not tapping out too fast on the stock at a loss since the pubs are trying to put them in a no win situation for simple political gain at the expense of our country's solvency



My sources that you constantly berate provide the real stories behind the loan repayments. The auto industry wasnt saved, the UAW was saved. When Bankruptcy laws are violated and paybacks are given to handlers in the UAW and bumper sticker lines like Obama saved it are laughable.


The stock is still a loser. The IPO was in the 30's its trading at $26 a share. As I said a million times before the stock needs to ge tto $55 to break even. The companies should have gone thru a proper bankruptcy, They still would have been able to operate. American Airlines is going thru one and Planes are still taking off and landing.



Our country is far from being solvent. Useless wars, a giant welfare and police state and 47% not chipping in and we are in the shitstorm going on today.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Our taxes paid for this piece of shit commercial?




<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TDKTdYKjt3s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Syd]

Our country is far from being solvent. Useless wars, a giant welfare and police state and 47% not chipping in and we are in the shitstorm going on today.

stop parroting that goddamn 47% talking point, Rush and the rest of the GOP invented it back before everyone realized how shit the tax code was and even Newt is pointing out how fubar the taxes are

http://www.politicususa.com/en/half-americans-taxes

Let me explain—repeat actually—what this means: About half of taxpayers paid no federal income tax last year. It does not mean they paid no tax at all. Many shelled out Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes. In fact, only 14 percent of Americans didn’t pay either income or payroll taxes. Some paid property taxes and, it is fair to say, just about all of them paid sales taxes of one kind or another. So to say they pay no taxes is flat wrong.

However, this class warfare-like rhetoric plays to a perception that the income tax is a chump tax: Only hard-working folks like us pay it. The welfare queens don’t. The super-rich don’t. It is a powerful emotional argument. It is also flat wrong.

But first, let's get back to how many people aren't paying. In 2008, according to the preliminary numbers, 142 million Federal income tax returns were filed, 51 million of which had no income tax liability on them. That's about 36%. Lotsa deadbeats, huh?

But of the 91 million returns filed that did have tax liability, 63 million or so were married filing jointly. So those 91 million tax returns actually represent 174 million people, and doesn't include the children of those people, for the most part. That's about 53% of the population, which is where the infamous 47% number came from.

So, who are these 150 million or so people who pay no income tax? Well, at least 60 million of them are children under 15. Goddamm deadbeat children! They should be paying their fair share! Close to another 40 million are over 65. While many people over 65 have enough income to have income tax liability, they are a minority. At least 25 million of these people are living on Social Security and not much else. Hence, no tax liability.

So, that leaves about 65 million working age adults who are paying no income tax. About 20% of the overall population. Lucky them. Most aren't making enough money to have to pay, period. Some are disabled, some are students...there are many reasons why. but most are just poor and poorly paid.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/jmadison/28292/the-47-myth-just-who-pays-income-tax-anyway

The fraction of tax units paying no income tax varies widely by filing status and type of unit. About 47 percent of single filers will owe no tax, compared with 38 percent of joint filers and 72 percent of heads of household. More than half of elderly tax units and tax units with children will pay no income tax this year.

The 47% statistic is not all Americans pay no taxes, but single filers who will pay no federal income taxes. According to the Center On Budget and Policy Priorities the real reason why 47%-51% of Americans paid no federal income taxes in 2009 is,

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/the-myth-that-47-of-americans-pay-no-taxes/question-1986041/

It's not even right, it's just something to get people riled up. Completely fucking Orwellian and you're smarter than that to fall for it.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The 47% are not paying for the wars, the goodies and the police state. So what If they pay Medicare FICA?


They should have to pay something. How many times must I say that they are being protected by the same military as I am.

Besides arent all men created equal?


http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2009/09/30/pf/taxes/who_pays_taxes/chart_households_no_income_tax.03.gif

[spoon]

The 47% are not paying for the wars, the goodies and the police state. So what If they pay Medicare FICA?


They should have to pay something. How many times must I say that they are being protected by the same military as I am.

Besides arent all men created equal?


http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2009/09/30/pf/taxes/who_pays_taxes/chart_households_no_income_tax.03.gif

They fight the wars as pawns, especially those on the front lines vs the officers?

Say it all you want, but you want to collect money from people collecting from the government who have nothing or close to it? Yah, sounds like a solid plan. How about we just help them get ABOVE the poverty line and leave that 47% that is ridiculously too high for a "westernized nation".

[WRESTLINGFAN]

They fight the wars as pawns, especially those on the front lines vs the officers?

Say it all you want, but you want to collect money from people collecting from the government who have nothing or close to it? Yah, sounds like a solid plan. How about we just help them get ABOVE the poverty line and leave that 47% that is ridiculously too high for a "westernized nation".

IT AINT ME IT AINT ME I AINT NO SENATORS SON


The military is made of mostly middle class people. The median income for enlisted personnel is slightly higher than the national median.


Programs like the great society and other lavish entitlements have made that number go up. Generational poverty and experiments like Detrot and St Louis,

[spoon]

ccr or not, your argument proves little as most "middle class" are closer to or at the poverty line now more than ever

many get funding and many don't pay much if at all

you say middle class and I agree...the working class (otherwise known as the recipient class to you)

[Syd]

The 47% are not paying for the wars, the goodies and the police state. So what If they pay Medicare FICA?]

Wars only benefit people that a shareholders for defense contractors, or contractor companies like Xe or Halliburton.

The goodies? Such as?

The police state, well, the majority of police action comes from the state level. FBI budget is generally around $8bn for 30k workers + costs to keep things running for them. The FBI mainly acts in the interest of capital, as do local police.

Also, in case you missed this:

But first, let's get back to how many people aren't paying. In 2008, according to the preliminary numbers, 142 million Federal income tax returns were filed, 51 million of which had no income tax liability on them. That's about 36%. Lotsa deadbeats, huh?

But of the 91 million returns filed that did have tax liability, 63 million or so were married filing jointly. So those 91 million tax returns actually represent 174 million people, and doesn't include the children of those people, for the most part. That's about 53% of the population, which is where the infamous 47% number came from.

So, who are these 150 million or so people who pay no income tax? Well, at least 60 million of them are children under 15. Goddamm deadbeat children! They should be paying their fair share! Close to another 40 million are over 65. While many people over 65 have enough income to have income tax liability, they are a minority. At least 25 million of these people are living on Social Security and not much else. Hence, no tax liability.

So, that leaves about 65 million working age adults who are paying no income tax. About 20% of the overall population. Lucky them. Most aren't making enough money to have to pay, period. Some are disabled, some are students...there are many reasons why. but most are just poor and poorly paid.

However, those 20% are still paying state taxes and are probably mired in poverty anyway which more or less prevents them from voting since their time is too important for them to waste time voting. The Democrats and Republicans hate the very poor alike. Programs like SNAP (that 60 million Americans are forced to use) are just handouts to prevent people from rebelling against authority.

In short, the 47% number is divorced from reality like so many other opinions parroted by the GOP.

[spoon]

well done syd

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Politicians in both parties benefit from the wars too.


Add in the DHS with its huge budget, thats part of the police state.

Goodies.? The lavish entitlements
That 47% ARE


HOUSEHOLDS


This argument can cease if the 16th Amendment was repealed

[SonOfSmeagol]

In short, the 47% number is divorced from reality like so many other opinions parroted by the GOP.

not really. i think the numbers in the press were based on this

Who Pays No Income Tax? 47% of tax units will owe no income tax in 2009. About 47% of single filers will owe no tax, compared with 38% of joint filers and 72% of heads of household. More than half of elderly tax units and tax units with children will pay no income tax this year. (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/1001289_who_pays.pdf)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

As with every govt program the income tax was supposed to be for the richest 1% at a top marginal rate of 7%


Almost 100 years later, a tax code with about 70,000 pages and growing. A bureaucracy full of paper pushers at the IRS and a complex tax code that gets more complex every year


Gov't gets bigger, the spending gets bigger, so the federal leviathan needs to hire more agents and bureaucrats.

[Syd]

not really. i think the numbers in the press were based on this

Who Pays No Income Tax? 47% of tax units will owe no income tax in 2009. About 47% of single filers will owe no tax, compared with 38% of joint filers and 72% of heads of household. More than half of elderly tax units and tax units with children will pay no income tax this year. (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/1001289_who_pays.pdf)

But they're being purposely misleading -- 47% of tax units owe no federal taxes, but that's only 20% of the population who are making somewhere below poverty level (national average is somewhere around $15-18k for a single person)

basically it's about making shit up to sound bad so they can justify taxing the fuck out of people on the low end of the scale while the hyper-rich can sit more and more of their money in offshore accounts and keep on sucking the life out of the nation

It's like someone saying you should bet on anything but 6 and 8 on a craps table because there's 67% odds of winning on anything else, because 6 and 8 have a 33% chance of coming up and 100% - 33% is 67% so therefore it is a good bet because I just did some math and came up with some numbers that help my cause of getting people to go play craps when in casinos.

[Syd]

Politicians in both parties benefit from the wars too.


Add in the DHS with its huge budget,

the DHS budget is $55bn, which is about 1.5% of the budget, less than that is spent on maintaining the highway system

Goodies.? The lavish entitlements
That 47% ARE HOUSEHOLDS

Possibly they are households, but you know that in order to make the numbers a better talking point they freely substitute individuals for joint filers, right? The reality of it is, 60 million or 20%, had all of their federal taxes refunded. It's an outlier though because of the tax credits Obama extended in addition to record levels of unemployment and highly depressed wages. In 2013, they'll have to figure out a new way to fudge numbers and purposely mislead people in order to get them to entrench themselves in class warfare against themselves.

142 million Federal income tax returns were filed, 51 million of which had no income tax liability on them. That's about 36%

very specifically, you have to understand that people can jointly file which makes an income tax return completely unlinked from population because not all returns can be attribute to one single person. The 47% is faulty math designed by a think tank that figured out how to trigger the response they wanted to see in the stereotypical conservative voter. Since you keep trumpeting it despite all evidence to the contrary shows how effective it is. I wonder if it was Luntz that did it though, I mean the guy has shit politics and supports awful people but the guy is completely brilliant at tricking people into agreeing with something that they disagree with normally just by switching around some words and re-phrasing things. It's all literally Newspeak

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Chevy runs deep...


Into taxpayers pockets

[spoon]

someone heard something worth repeating

[Jujubees2]

In remarkable turnaround, GM may post record profit (http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/06/10330662-in-remarkable-turnaround-gm-may-post-record-profit\)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Taxpayers still wont be made whole. They still owe us billions.

[Crispy123]

and fox news will still be on the air.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

and fox news will still be on the air.

:wallbash::wallbash:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How about. The Deadbeats of America... Thats today's Chevrolet

Chrysler.. Imported from Detroit.... along with thousands of its former citizens.


All those fucking commercials and not even a thank you ad to taxpayers from the UAW for all the money pissed away.

[Crispy123]

hint hint: UAW are the taxpayers.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

99% of other taxpayers were forced against their will to bail them out.

Bondholders were fucked over. This wasnt bankruptcy it was a gift.

[Crispy123]

99% of other taxpayers were forced against their will to bail them out.

Bondholders were fucked over. This wasnt bankruptcy it was a gift.

Im sure the UAW were so happy that the executives who ran the company into the ground were still able to draw a salary and bonuses.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Im sure the UAW were so happy that the executives who ran the company into the ground were still able to draw a salary and bonuses.

Like the UAW werent a guilty party as well. There were a lot of chefs fucking up that stew

[Crispy123]

Like the UAW werent a guilty party as well. There were a lot of chefs fucking up that stew

sure, if you watch fox news they will tell you.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

:sure, if you watch fox news they will tell you.

:lol:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Chevys suriving the Mayan apocolypse? They cant even survive a pot hole. GM Has a lot of Chutzpah ragging on Ford.

[Syd]

and what's the deal with that VW commercial being on at the cantina? That commercial wasn't even made yet, Star Wars happened a long time ago. Plus what was Darth Vader doing there?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Clint Eastwoods suck up to Obama commercial was filmed in LA and New Orleans not in Motown


It aint halftime its almost game over for the president

[Syd]

Why did it have to be shot in Detroit in order for it to count as a WF approved commercial?

Also hate to break it to you but Obama will be re-elected, so it is about halftime for him.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Why did it have to be shot in Detroit in order for it to count as a WF approved commercial?

Also hate to break it to you but Obama will be re-elected, so it is about halftime for him.

Well Detroit is the home of the American auto industry. Would have been cheaper too. But hey we are paying for the commercial so who gives a fuck? Its only money


its 3rd quarter for the President. Third and very long

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The Transportation did all it could to damage Toyota, look at their performance


http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=TM+Interactive#chart1:symbol=tm;range=3m ;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlc values=0;logscale=on;source=undefined

[Snacks]

Well Detroit is the home of the American auto industry. Would have been cheaper too. But hey we are paying for the commercial so who gives a fuck? Its only money


its 3rd quarter for the President. Third and very long

you do realize that Clint Eastwood is a republican he just happens to be 1 with a brain that doesn't support the party line when it comes to equality for all and personal life choices? When I watched that it seemed not to be political but more a way to tell America that GM turned things around and that the American spirit is alive and well and we dont give up as a nation. What was wrong with that?

The mistake was made by the repubs for trying to make it political and bitching about the ad for no reason. Its showing how out of touch they are.

On a side note you cant blame the unions for GM's failures. GMs failures are on decisions and their business model that is done in the corp office and are made by Executives and Executives cant be or at least arent in a Union.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

you do realize that Clint Eastwood is a republican he just happens to be 1 with a brain that doesn't support the party line when it comes to equality for all and personal life choices? When I watched that it seemed not to be political but more a way to tell America that GM turned things around and that the American spirit is alive and well and we dont give up as a nation. What was wrong with that?

The mistake was made by the repubs for trying to make it political and bitching about the ad for no reason. Its showing how out of touch they are.

On a side note you cant blame the unions for GM's failures. GMs failures are on decisions and their business model that is done in the corp office and are made by Executives and Executives cant be or at least arent in a Union.

If GM was allowed to go thru a proper bankruptcy it still would have been able to operate. Detroit would have not shut down. We as taxpayers were forced to become investors and for all the hoo rah pomp and circumstance, GM has been a net loss to taxpayers and they still owe tens of billions of dollars. It was made political the second it was given 60 billion dollars.


GM didnt turn things around, It was propped up at our expense. I never put all the blame on the unions, I agree there was a shitty business model and they made tons of cars that were impractable. The UAW bears some blame as well with the outrageous legacy costs and other demands they made.


Also post bailout the UAW in KC is threatening to strike. They agreed to a no strike clause as part of the deal.

[Syd]

If GM was allowed to go thru a proper bankruptcy it still would have been able to operate. Detroit would have not shut down.

It would have -- look at all the other brands that died during the recession. Every single one ended up going to India or China who are now going to reap all the rewards.

GM didnt turn things around, It was propped up at our expense. I never put all the blame on the unions, I agree there was a shitty business model and they made tons of cars that were impractable. The UAW bears some blame as well with the outrageous legacy costs and other demands they made.

It's not outrageous legacy costs and demands -- look at Germany or Scandinavia. They're heavily unionized and have no issue competing in the world marketplace. America's race to the bottom made it unprofitable to pay people living wages. Instead companies swoop in and force the US government to pay for things like healthcare, all the while killing wages and benefits. There's no reason other than jealousy that people should be upset at workers earning what is a fair wage on the comparable world stage.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It would have -- look at all the other brands that died during the recession. Every single one ended up going to India or China who are now going to reap all the rewards.



It's not outrageous legacy costs and demands -- look at Germany or Scandinavia. They're heavily unionized and have no issue competing in the world marketplace. America's race to the bottom made it unprofitable to pay people living wages. Instead companies swoop in and force the US government to pay for things like healthcare, all the while killing wages and benefits. There's no reason other than jealousy that people should be upset at workers earning what is a fair wage on the comparable world stage.

Companies are still able to operate during bankruptcy. Speaking of outsourcing, GM is heavily involved with that post bailout especially in China and Mexico. There was also the Jobs bank for laid off workers in which they were being paid close to their salary for sitting home and doing nothing

Germany and Sweden have different economies and are much different than the US. GM workers were earning a fair wage, but legacy costs as much as $2500 per vehicle were not sustainable

[Syd]

Companies are still able to operate during bankruptcy.

Yes, Jaguar was able to operate and be sold to an Indian company. Same with Volvo automobiles being able to be sold to a Chinese company. Now the local governments are forced to send profits abroad while still having to dedicate care to local workers. Thank god people only have issues with welfare queens, instead of welfare companies.

Germany and Sweden have different economies and are much different than the US. GM workers were earning a fair wage, but legacy costs as much as $2500 per vehicle were not sustainable

Yeah, thanks to progressive policies such as strong union protection, excellent university offerings that are subsidized and nationalized healthcare those economies aren't burdened by paleo-conservative ideals of "fuck workers as hard as possible and make them all hate each other so they can't escape a life of wage slavery"

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yes, Jaguar was able to operate and be sold to an Indian company. Same with Volvo automobiles being able to be sold to a Chinese company. Now the local governments are forced to send profits abroad while still having to dedicate care to local workers. Thank god people only have issues with welfare queens, instead of welfare companies.



Yeah, thanks to progressive policies such as strong union protection, excellent university offerings that are subsidized and nationalized healthcare those economies aren't burdened by paleo-conservative ideals of "fuck workers as hard as possible and make them all hate each other so they can't escape a life of wage slavery"

Lets go all in. Repeal Obamacare and go to single payer. College for everyone medicare for all. Enough of this quasi social democracy stuff.


Who wants the corporate welfare? Companies like ADM so it can further feed off ethanol subsidies and Presidential hopeful can go to Iowa and suck up to the corn farmers.

[Crispy123]

Lets go all in. Repeal Obamacare and go to single payer. College for everyone medicare for all. Enough of this quasi social democracy stuff.


Who wants the corporate welfare? Companies like ADM so it can further feed off ethanol subsidies and Presidential hopeful can go to Iowa and suck up to the corn farmers.

now I get it. You are pissed that Obama tried to compromise.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

now I get it. You are pissed that Obama tried to compromise.

Obama greased the palms of Ben Nelson and others in the Senate to get it thru.

[Syd]

Lets go all in. Repeal Obamacare and go to single payer. College for everyone medicare for all. Enough of this quasi social democracy stuff.

There's no reason not to -- we're doing it halfway with how the government interacts with corporations. Scandinavia basically lets companies run free with the understanding that comes with the responsibility of being invested in their respective countries.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

There's no reason not to -- we're doing it halfway with how the government interacts with corporations. Scandinavia basically lets companies run free with the understanding that comes with the responsibility of being invested in their respective countries.

Those countries are social democracies with national governments. Our constitution doesnt mandate that, but politicians dont seem to care.


We are a constitutional republic with a republican small r form of gov't or at least we were

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The feel good story fails to mention that this happened at the expense of 49 Other states. So if your state doesn’t have the resources for education, If your city doesn’t have the resources for Police and fire services, you can thank the federal government for this. This is all out of Henry Hazletts Economics in 1 Lesson.


I demand Michigan repay its so called surplus to the other 49 states who had no say in this auto bailout.


http://news.yahoo.com/bail-politics-even-michigans-economy-improving-100047912--abc-news.html

[Syd]

I'm glad every single thing, from the iron that wrought the steel to the oil used in the plastic grommets comes from Michigan. That state is truly a marvel at self-sufficiency -- how many other industrial bases don't rely on a long supplier chain to create goods? Not many. Kudos to Detroit and their ability to build cars only on resources in Michigan.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How many other states had the luxury of receiving tens of billions of dollars from the other 49 states? How many other states had the luxury of getting huge writedowns and being to access funds for operating capital from an existing TARP funds.


Auto Industry has not recovered. If that was the case then there wouldnt be so many new BMWs, Nissans and Toyotas on the roads.

[disneyspy]

you're retarded

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Clearly you read some headline and cant analyze how they came to that so called surplus

[disneyspy]

na,just saw you were demanding retarded shit and wanted you to know

[Gutter]

How many other states had the luxury of receiving tens of billions of dollars from the other 49 states? How many other states had the luxury of getting huge writedowns and being to access funds for operating capital from an existing TARP funds.


Auto Industry has not recovered. If that was the case then there wouldnt be so many new BMWs, Nissans and Toyotas on the roads.

There was actually a report on CBS Sunday Morning a few weeks ago about how well The Big Three did in the past fiscal year. All three posted some pretty sizeable profits with GM leading the pack. I wouldn't say it's recovered, but it is recovering.

[Furtherman]

There was actually a report on CBS Sunday Morning a few weeks ago about how well The Big Three did in the past fiscal year. All three posted some pretty sizeable profits with GM leading the pack. I wouldn't say it's recovered, but it is recovering.

Yea, but he wants instant results. Damn liberal hippy!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

na,just saw you were demanding retarded shit and wanted you to know

When other states had their money taken away, they just want back whats owed to them

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yea, but he wants instant results. Damn liberal hippy!!

Its been 3 years.

[Gutter]

Yea, but he wants instant results. Damn liberal hippy!!

my bad. Does it make a difference that......

"As a result of its performance, G.M. said 45,000 union workers would receive profit-sharing checks averaging $4,300, the most ever" ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/business/25auto.html

[Furtherman]

my bad. Does it make a difference that......

"As a result of its performance, G.M. said 45,000 union workers would receive profit-sharing checks averaging $4,300, the most ever" ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/business/25auto.html

NO! OBAMA BAD. NO CAN DO ANYTHING. SOCIALIST MARXIST!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What about the taxpayers? Fuck us. Dont wait for any dividend check.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

NO! OBAMA BAD. NO CAN DO ANYTHING. CRONY CAPITALIST CORPORATIST WHORE !

Fixed.

[Gutter]

What about the taxpayers? Fuck us. Dont wait for any dividend check.

what about them? I didn't notice my taxes increased. I didn't get a letter that said, 10% of what you paid in taxes is going to help the auto industry. My check has been the same amount for some time now. And I still get a pretty sizable tax return every year to boot.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

what about them? I didn't notice my taxes increased. I didn't get a letter that said, 10% of what you paid in taxes is going to help the auto industry. My check has been the same amount for some time now. And I still get a pretty sizable tax return every year to boot.


Has nothing to do what you earn.
You were forced to become an investor. Your state could have used that money for its own budget.

As an investor dont you have the right to cash in ?

The auto industry should have figured out how to restructure on its own without begging everyone else to save them.


That Chevy volt is doing wonders to the coal industry

Who do we bail out next? Answer is Greece.

[StanUpshaw]

what about them? I didn't notice my taxes increased. I didn't get a letter that said, 10% of what you paid in taxes is going to help the auto industry. My check has been the same amount for some time now. And I still get a pretty sizable tax return every year to boot.

That's really the insidious thing about deficit spending and inflation of the money supply. Ignorant fools like yourself have no idea they're getting sucked dry.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

what about them? I didn't notice my taxes increased. I didn't get a letter that said, 10% of what you paid in taxes is going to help the auto industry. My check has been the same amount for some time now. And I still get a pretty sizable tax return every year to boot.

Hows your purchasing power ?

[Gutter]

Has nothing to do what you earn.
You were forced to become an investor. Your state could have used that money for its own budget.

As an investor dont you have the right to cash in ?

The auto industry should have figured out how to restructure on its own without begging everyone else to save them.


Who do we bail out next? Answer is Greece.

So we let basically the entirety of the US automotive industry fail? We allow Detroit to be swallowed whole and just grin and bear it when the effects ripple throughout the glass, rubber, plastic, upholstery, and steel industries? Not to mention the massive job loss as GM employs god knows how many people?

The bailout of the auto industry has forced them to upgrade working conditions, revisit quality checks by empowering employees to take ownership of the product the help build, lower factory output and environmental damage, and develop greener vehicles.

From a CNN report as old as last summer: But you know what? The bailout, by the numbers, clearly did work. Not only did it forestall a worldwide financial meltdown, but a Fortune analysis shows that U.S. taxpayers are coming out ahead on it -- by at least $40 billion, and possibly by as much as $100 billion eventually. This is our count for the entire bailout, not just the 3% represented by the massively unpopular Troubled Asset Relief Program. Yes, that's right -- TARP is only about 3% of the bailout, even though it gets about 97% of the attention.

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/07/08/surprise-the-big-bad-bailout-is-paying-off/

Also....Pie Chart and his friend Bar Graph.

http://fortunewallstreet.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/bailout_exposure_vs_profit.jpg

[Gutter]

That's really the insidious thing about deficit spending and inflation of the money supply. Ignorant fools like yourself have no idea they're getting sucked dry.

I don't know why but I'm still amazed that it's fucking impossible for you to make a point without calling someone names like a six year old.

[StanUpshaw]

I don't know why but I'm still amazed that it's fucking impossible for you to make a point without calling someone names like a six year old.

Tattooed retard is as tattooed retard does.

[Gutter]

Tattooed retard is as tattooed retard does.

God you're useless.

I suppose this will mean a few weeks of you stalking me around .net and making shitty comments under a new screen name every time I make a post in any thread like some psycho ex girlfriend. Again. I'll be looking forward to it. It's ok precious, I know how butt hurt you get, so just let it all out.

[StanUpshaw]

God you're useless.

I suppose this will mean a few weeks of you stalking me around .net and making shitty comments under a new screen name every time I make a post in any thread like some psycho ex girlfriend. Again. I'll be looking forward to it. It's ok precious, I know how butt hurt you get, so just let it all out.

It's funny cuz you take your feelings and project them on me.

[Furtherman]

Well Stan, since Gutter just made his point and you... can't, I guess name calling is all that's left.

[StanUpshaw]

Well Stan, since Gutter just made his point and you... can't, I guess name calling is all that's left.

Don't mind if I do, shitpipe.

[HBox]

Don't mind if I do, shitpipe.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So we let basically the entirety of the US automotive industry fail? We allow Detroit to be swallowed whole and just grin and bear it when the effects ripple throughout the glass, rubber, plastic, upholstery, and steel industries? Not to mention the massive job loss as GM employs god knows how many people?

The bailout of the auto industry has forced them to upgrade working conditions, revisit quality checks by empowering employees to take ownership of the product the help build, lower factory output and environmental damage, and develop greener vehicles.

From a CNN report as old as last summer: But you know what? The bailout, by the numbers, clearly did work. Not only did it forestall a worldwide financial meltdown, but a Fortune analysis shows that U.S. taxpayers are coming out ahead on it -- by at least $40 billion, and possibly by as much as $100 billion eventually. This is our count for the entire bailout, not just the 3% represented by the massively unpopular Troubled Asset Relief Program. Yes, that's right -- TARP is only about 3% of the bailout, even though it gets about 97% of the attention.

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/07/08/surprise-the-big-bad-bailout-is-paying-off/

Also....Pie Chart and his friend Bar Graph.

http://fortunewallstreet.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/bailout_exposure_vs_profit.jpg



Coming from the US treasury. Taxpayers will never get money back and losses will be huge

http://reason.com/blog/2011/11/17/treasury-admits-what-everybody-already-k


http://reason.com/archives/2011/05/24/general-motors-will-never-repa

[Furtherman]

Don't mind if I do, shitpipe.

No further questions your honor.

[Syd]

So we let basically the entirety of the US automotive industry fail? We allow Detroit to be swallowed whole and just grin and bear it when the effects ripple throughout the glass, rubber, plastic, upholstery, and steel industries? Not to mention the massive job loss as GM employs god knows how many people?

Most conservatives are the "fuck you, got mine" type that don't really have the ability to empathize or understand they're not in a vacuum. If you look at anything WF says with your glasses tinted "what can this do to benefit me, and me only" you understand his positions.

As awful as TARP was, it was still necessary -- it directly rewarded those that caused problems. It was either let the "free market" work itself out by having a bunch of money that was formerly infinitely leveraged (derivatives market) become real, causing a monetary crisis and a complete shuttering of the credit industry. Capitalism is built on credit -- how would that have turned out?

Society is a communal effort. No one is capable of doing anything alone nowadays yet everyone thinks they can "go Galt" but that shit just ain't happening. The Founding Fathers tried it up until they found out they needed a shitload of slaves because not a single one of them was capable of wiping their ass without 3/5ths of a hand there to help them. Also in the case of Jefferson, he literally raped them and ran his plantation so poorly that his estate had to sell off his own bastard children in order to pay debts. The Founding Fathers were awful pieces of shit. I don't know where that diatribe came from, but, fuck them.

[StanUpshaw]

"Fuck you, don't steal from me at gunpoint."

[Dude!]

Society is a communal effort. No one is capable of doing anything alone nowadays yet everyone thinks they can "go Galt" but that shit just ain't happening. The Founding Fathers tried it up until they found out they needed a shitload of slaves because not a single one of them was capable of wiping their ass without 3/5ths of a hand there to help them. Also in the case of Jefferson, he literally raped them and ran his plantation so poorly that his estate had to sell off his own bastard children in order to pay debts. The Founding Fathers were awful pieces of shit. I don't know where that diatribe came from, but, fuck them.

get some facts first, please...
they've done massive DNA
studies and the little mulatto
pickanninies are NOT descendants
of Thomas Jefferson

and, oh yeah, 3/5 is about 2/5 more
than they were actually worth

[Syd]

"Fuck you, don't steal from me at gunpoint."

"Fuck you, I don't realize that things like welfare and food stamps are there to placate the underclass so that not as many resort to crime, also fuck you I pretend I got to where I was without the help of the extensive, however underfunded, support system set up by the government"

also I don't see you running to Somalia or Guatemala or some other country with little federal authority. Too scared to go Galt and deal with Italian ships dumping radioactive waste off your shores or roving bands of drug cartel funded paramilitary groups kidnapping people?

That's right, you love the nanny state as much as the rest of the people because you're too weak willed to live up to your principles. You just want to talk the talk to sound like you're not another lemming sucking on the teat of big government. At least your bluster goes over well at the Thanksgiving table, though :thumbup:

[Gutter]

Coming from the US treasury. Taxpayers will never get money back and losses will be huge

http://reason.com/blog/2011/11/17/treasury-admits-what-everybody-already-k


http://reason.com/archives/2011/05/24/general-motors-will-never-repa

But for how long? Is it not better to deal with losses than it is to loose the industry completely to overseas manufacturers?

[Gutter]

Well Stan, since Gutter just made his point and you... can't, I guess name calling is all that's left.

It's all he does.

[StanUpshaw]

"Fuck you, I don't realize that things like welfare and food stamps are there to placate the underclass so that not as many resort to crime, also fuck you I pretend I got to where I was without the help of the extensive, however underfunded, support system set up by the government"

also I don't see you running to Somalia or Guatemala or some other country with little federal authority. Too scared to go Galt and deal with Italian ships dumping radioactive waste off your shores or roving bands of drug cartel funded paramilitary groups kidnapping people?

That's right, you love the nanny state as much as the rest of the people because you're too weak willed to live up to your principles. You just want to talk the talk to sound like you're not another lemming sucking on the teat of big government. At least your bluster goes over well at the Thanksgiving table, though :thumbup:

This post is extremely telling about your mindset. You and your ilk believe you're part of the omniscient ruling class that is able survey the peons and move them around like so many pieces on a chessboard. Not only can you see forest and the trees, you see the bees pollinating the buds. And you're fit to rule it all. Ethics be damned. Syd knows what to do. And he's willing to point guns at you if you disobey.

[StanUpshaw]

It's all he does.

You sure do spend a whole lot of time worrying about what I do.

[Gutter]

You sure do spend a whole lot of time worrying about what I do.

I don't worry about it at all. I just don't understand why you're even here.

[Syd]

This post is extremely telling about your mindset. You and your ilk believe you're part of the omniscient ruling class that is able survey the peons and move them around like so many pieces on a chessboard. Not only can you see forest and the trees, you see the bees pollinating the buds. And you're fit to rule it all. Ethics be damned. Syd knows what to do. And he's willing to point guns at you if you disobey.

No, my point is that unlike you I depend on my fellow man. I understand that tomatoes just don't flitter into existence at my grocer nor does the gas in my car magically put itself into the tank. I find people who think they "live on an island" so to speak detestable. You just attribute that I think society is a cooperative effort as some sort of ruling elite because the only thing you know about communal efforts is what the GOP tells you: Lenin, Pol Pot, Mao and Castro.

[StanUpshaw]

No, my point is that unlike you I depend on my fellow man. I understand that tomatoes just don't flitter into existence at my grocer nor does the gas in my car magically put itself into the tank. I find people who think they "live on an island" so to speak detestable. You just attribute that I think society is a cooperative effort as some sort of ruling elite because the only thing you know about communal efforts is what the GOP tells you: Lenin, Pol Pot, Mao and Castro.

Yeah, we sort of worked out that conundrum 250 years ago:

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity, but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages."

[Syd]

Yeah, we sort of worked out that conundrum 250 years ago:

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity, but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages."

Yet each of those are interdependent upon the other. I'm not arguing for altruism but rather we're all linked together working toward a common goal for a better society. Conservatives basically want to pretend they're not part of it, that the farmer didn't supply the corn to the grazier which supplied the butcher. I know it's tough to understand something that exists beyond yourself and your lust for goods and wealth but try to step outside your shoes for a second and open up your eyes.

[StanUpshaw]

Yet each of those are interdependent upon the other. I'm not arguing for altruism but rather we're all linked together working toward a common goal for a better society. Conservatives basically want to pretend they're not part of it, that the farmer didn't supply the corn to the grazier which supplied the butcher. I know it's tough to understand something that exists beyond yourself and your lust for goods and wealth but try to step outside your shoes for a second and open up your eyes.

I understand that interdependency, as does anyone who has addressed capitalism as philosophy. I have no doubt that there are proponents of capitalism who believe themselves to be self-sufficient entities (although I see far more examples of this in the "sustainability" crowd, who install $30,000 of solar panels and then somehow imagine they are "self sufficient"), but their mistaken logic does not change the facts.

Yes, we are interconnected. But the glue that holds us together is not the "common goal for a better society." It is self interest. Society arises as the product of the hundreds of choices made every day by seven billion individuals. Not whatever central plan you have the audacity to imagine.

A "better society" is fine to talk about in the abstract. Hell, if you want to gather together a group of volunteers willing to subject themselves to communal authority, that's wonderful and I wish you luck.

But to imagine that you, or your democratic majority, or some benevolent philosopher king has the authority to rule over me by force, you don't have a motherfucking leg to stand on. How dare you preach to me about ethics or virtue.

[StanUpshaw]

Faggot.

[Crispy123]

"Fuck you, don't steal from me at gunpoint."

"Fuck you, I don't realize that things like welfare and food stamps are there to placate the underclass so that not as many resort to crime, also fuck you I pretend I got to where I was without the help of the extensive, however underfunded, support system set up by the government"

also I don't see you running to Somalia or Guatemala or some other country with little federal authority. Too scared to go Galt and deal with Italian ships dumping radioactive waste off your shores or roving bands of drug cartel funded paramilitary groups kidnapping people?

That's right, you love the nanny state as much as the rest of the people because you're too weak willed to live up to your principles. You just want to talk the talk to sound like you're not another lemming sucking on the teat of big government. At least your bluster goes over well at the Thanksgiving table, though :thumbup:



http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/4/25/yougotserved128536048147277003.jpg

[Syd]

But to imagine that you, or your democratic majority, or some benevolent philosopher king has the authority to rule over me by force, you don't have a motherfucking leg to stand on. How dare you preach to me about ethics or virtue.

You're already ruled over by force, and will always be ruled over by force. If you didn't spend so much time preaching how you'd like to see yourself and spent more time acting on your principles, you'd be a serf in Somalia or gunned down in Guatemala. Instead you live off of the very system you hate because you're incapable of living on your own.

Nice to see you call me a faggot, as if I'm insulted that you think I'm attracted to men. Very telling of your upbringing that you're leashed to another authority figure -- your parents. But, hey, ooga booga, gay people; Log Cabin Republicans.

[StanUpshaw]

"If a woman is getting raped, she may as well try to enjoy it."

[Crispy123]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HLEb-iCQqec" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Most conservatives are the "fuck you, got mine" type that don't really have the ability to empathize or understand they're not in a vacuum. If you look at anything WF says with your glasses tinted "what can this do to benefit me, and me only" you understand his positions.

As awful as TARP was, it was still necessary -- it directly rewarded those that caused problems. It was either let the "free market" work itself out by having a bunch of money that was formerly infinitely leveraged (derivatives market) become real, causing a monetary crisis and a complete shuttering of the credit industry. Capitalism is built on credit -- how would that have turned out?

Society is a communal effort. No one is capable of doing anything alone nowadays yet everyone thinks they can "go Galt" but that shit just ain't happening. The Founding Fathers tried it up until they found out they needed a shitload of slaves because not a single one of them was capable of wiping their ass without 3/5ths of a hand there to help them. Also in the case of Jefferson, he literally raped them and ran his plantation so poorly that his estate had to sell off his own bastard children in order to pay debts. The Founding Fathers were awful pieces of shit. I don't know where that diatribe came from, but, fuck them.

The fuck you got mine are the UAW who were rescued. So in your little utopia we just choose favorites and rescue the people who deserve to be rescued via tax dollars. What happened with GM is not capitalism. Capitalism would have allowed a proper bankruptcy and would have not violated the constitution

As far as your founding fathers comments. Do something about it then. If you want a national democracy start petitioning for an article V convention.


We are well on our way there, as we no longer have a republican form of gov't anymore.

[Syd]

The fuck you got mine are the UAW who were rescued. So in your little utopia we just choose favorites and rescue the people who deserve to be rescued via tax dollars. What happened with GM is not capitalism. Capitalism would have allowed a proper bankruptcy and would have not violated the constitution

What is capitalism? The capitalism we practice now is barely capitalist according to the guy that wrote the book on capitalism. (http://www.chomsky.info/books/warfare02.htm)

Furthermore, how are they fuck you got mine? Should living people not make living wages? UAW is where the middle class is -- people that took the responsibility for themselves through their community.

[Crispy123]

The fuck you got mine are the UAW who were rescued. So in your little utopia we just choose favorites and rescue the people who deserve to be rescued via tax dollars. What happened with GM is not capitalism. Capitalism would have allowed a proper bankruptcy and would have not violated the constitution

As far as your founding fathers comments. Do something about it then. If you want a national democracy start petitioning for an article V convention.


We are well on our way there, as we no longer have a republican form of gov't anymore.

Just out of curiosity, what article of the constitution is capitalism in?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What is capitalism? The capitalism we practice now is barely capitalist according to the guy that wrote the book on capitalism. (http://www.chomsky.info/books/warfare02.htm)

Furthermore, how are they fuck you got mine? Should living people not make living wages? UAW is where the middle class is -- people that took the responsibility for themselves through their community.

We havent been practicing capitalism for decades

They were fuck you got mine when they were handed taxdollars on the backs of other people.without a say from them.

[Syd]

We havent been practicing capitalism for decades

They were fuck you got mine when they were handed taxdollars on the backs of other people.without a say from them.

They were handed what they were owed in their pensions, and then GM was handed some money too. I know you hate people so much that you want to see their futures burned in some righteous pyre to Adam Smith but the UAW earned their pension because they were smart enough to band together for a common cause instead of individually sitting around wondering how they can hate their common man.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

They were handed what they were owed in their pensions, and then GM was handed some money too. I know you hate people so much that you want to see their futures burned in some righteous pyre to Adam Smith but the UAW earned their pension because they were smart enough to band together for a common cause instead of individually sitting around wondering how they can hate their common man.

So why arent we bailing out American Airlines? Guess the unions didnt grease the palms of the gov't enough

The UAW got too greedy Management had a bad business model and as a result we will never recoup our money


Just a matter of years when these deadbeats get bailed out again


So all those banksters at BofA and JPMorgan and Goldman, do you care about those fellow human beings too?

[Furtherman]

The bailout saved our Auto industry. It's still here. How tragic.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Tragic that we are in the red.

[Syd]

So why arent we bailing out American Airlines? Guess the unions didnt grease the palms of the gov't enough

American Airlines isn't going to be sold off to foreign companies to secure patent rights and research. American Airlines isn't a durable goods manufacturer. American Airlines completely closing down has a minimal effect on the economy compared to even a mild GM bankruptcy.

On the anti-union note: This is how vehement people are about hating workers --

http://gawker.com/5885630/politico-mistakes-state-flag-for-union-flag-idiocy-ensues

That is how silly it is and how effective the propaganda from the top down has become that people will see a number and assume it's a union chapter. Everyone wants to pull the lobster climbing out of the pot back down to boil because of their own delusional "self interest"

Last but not least,
http://www.herald-mail.com/news/bs-bz-gm-plant-visit-20120215,0,4474795.story

Here comes jobs from Mexico back to America. Coincidentally in a state that is highly liberal, well educated and highly organized in the private sector.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

American Airlines isn't going to be sold off to foreign companies to secure patent rights and research. American Airlines isn't a durable goods manufacturer. American Airlines completely closing down has a minimal effect on the economy compared to even a mild GM bankruptcy.

On the anti-union note: This is how vehement people are about hating workers --

http://gawker.com/5885630/politico-mistakes-state-flag-for-union-flag-idiocy-ensues

That is how silly it is and how effective the propaganda from the top down has become that people will see a number and assume it's a union chapter. Everyone wants to pull the lobster climbing out of the pot back down to boil because of their own delusional "self interest"

Last but not least,
http://www.herald-mail.com/news/bs-bz-gm-plant-visit-20120215,0,4474795.story

Here comes jobs from Mexico back to America. Coincidentally in a state that is highly liberal, well educated and highly organized in the private sector.

In the end its still gov't picing winners and losers and goes against the markets. Markets allow success and failures. When the government picks winners and losers this interferes with the natural laws.


BofA Goldman and others derivatives desks dont produce anything but their connections to the Govt like paulson, Rubin and others allowed them to receive cash infusions with borrowed money. Lehman didnt have that pull so they went under.

In regards to those jobs coming back, when they dont have to invest in bringing those back, they can tap into their escrow funds for human and operating capital

[Syd]

Seeing as corporations are constructs of government, I don't see why the government shouldn't be involved with them. Also, what natural laws? There are no corporations in nature. They're invented.

[Dude!]

There are no corporations in nature. They're invented.

so is government
so is society
so is clothing
so is cooking

so what

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Seeing as corporations are constructs of government, I don't see why the government shouldn't be involved with them. Also, what natural laws? There are no corporations in nature. They're invented.

Govt trying to influence demand for the volt. Its too costly, It didnt look like the sleek coupe like in the artist renderings, and with a $7500 Credit nobody wants it. More people chose the nissan leaf.

[Bob Impact]

I laughed hysterically at an interview with Noam Chomsky being used to explain Capitalism.

[Syd]

I laughed hysterically at an interview with Noam Chomsky being used to explain Capitalism.

Who should we look at? Adam Smith? His view of capitalism isn't at all compatible with the current brand of capitalism employed the world over. It's almost like capitalism is a nebulous excuse to fuck over workers as mathematically as possible.

[Furtherman]

Economist Devastates Romney on the Auto Bailout (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/02/16/economist_devastates_romney_on_the_auto_bailout.ht ml?fb_ref=sm_fb_like_blogpost&fb_source=home_oneline)

As with much of Mr Romney's excessive rhetoric, there is some truth to this statement. Following the bail-outs, the president eventually forced Chrysler and GM into bankruptcy, a step Mr Romney thought should occur naturally. And the government oversaw painful restructurings at both companies, which were largely in line with Mr Romney's broad suggestions. But the course Mr Romney recommended in 2008 began with the government stepping back, and it is unlikely things would've turned out so well had this happened.
Free-marketeers that we are, The Economist agreed with Mr Romney at the time. But we later apologised for that position. "Had the government not stepped in, GM might have restructured under normal bankruptcy procedures, without putting public money at risk", we said. But "given the panic that gripped private purse-strings...it is more likely that GM would have been liquidated, sending a cascade of destruction through the supply chain on which its rivals, too, depended." Even Ford, which avoided bankruptcy, feared the industry would collapse if GM went down. At the time that seemed like a real possibility. The credit markets were bone-dry, making the privately financed bankruptcy that Mr Romney favoured improbable. He conveniently ignores this bit of history in claiming to have been right all along.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Woo hooo record profits.


When your debts are erased and tax burdens as part of the deal no wonder UAW employees are getting $7000 checks. On our fucking dime


So in other words, the tax payers got screwed x2 by bailing out GM and then allowing GM to avoid paying taxes on its earnings.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The auto bailout and rule of law.



http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-auto-bailout-and-the-rule-of-law

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GM Halts production of Volt temporarily


http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/gm-laying-1300-due-low-volt-sales/406771


I like how GM tries to blame the media. However they still cant realize that theres no demand for them.

[Kublakhan61]

I like how GM tries to blame the media. However they still cant realize that theres no demand for them.

I think you mean there is little demand for them, not there is no demand.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I've seen only 1 volt on the road.


Kinda Ironic how Obama touts the volt last week at the uaw convention and a couple of days later they stop production temporary

[Crispy123]

thats not irony, its a coincidence

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This is worse than a George Costanza scheme


http://news.yahoo.com/american-auto-bailout-france-100824412--abc-news.html

[Syd]

if a George Costanza scheme is to get economy of scale, diesel engines that have already had all the necessary R&D money dumped into them and a foothold in a developing market that GM has had problems with (India) then yeah it's a pretty bad scheme

this is exactly why the auto bailout was good -- it kept economies that depended on auto sales afloat and bypassed the need for expensive unemployment/social safety nets and now with things like this, the ability to take money from other countries and pool it here in America

but hey Obama did it, must be bad

oh and access to excellent supermini chassis like the underpinnings of the 207

[StanUpshaw]

They're betting with the house's money. The moral hazard brought about by the bailouts means they can take whatever risks they feel like because they know their fascist cronies have their back.

But Obama did it, so it must be great.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

When this investment is another loser, It will be another Obama noble failure


Privatize gains socialize losses

[hanso]

Chevy Volt: Why is production being halted?
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0305/Chevy-Volt-Why-is-production-being-halted

Damn lib's and their tree huggin cars! Doesn't even come with a fetus compartment.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

People might get free contraception with a purchase of a volt.

Speaking of Fisker.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2012/03/09/more-bad-karma-for-fisker-100k-electric-car-breaks-down-in-consumer-reports-test/

[high fly]

Woo hooo record profits.


When your debts are erased and tax burdens as part of the deal no wonder UAW employees are getting $7000 checks. On our fucking dime


Then the ungrateful bastards have the nerve to go and spend that money at the local grocery store or other places that need the business and pump all that dough back into the economy where it gets taxed over and over again instead of stashing it in the Cayman Islands....

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Then the ungrateful bastards have the nerve to go and spend that money at the local grocery store or other places that need the business and pump all that dough back into the economy where it gets taxed over and over again instead of stashing it in the Cayman Islands....

John Maynard Keynes would be cumming in his pants reading that.

[high fly]

In the end its still gov't picing winners and losers and goes against the markets. Markets allow success and failures. When the government picks winners and losers this interferes with the natural laws.



Examples of that abound.
That pesky intrusive government should have continued to allow the market to function instead of embarking on that soshulist "Rural Electrification" program. Before the government got involved, 90% of rural America was without electricity because it was too expensive.

I think we'd all agree the government should have let market forces take care of yellow fever and malaria epidemics, too. Sooner or later people would've plunked down the dough to take care of that stuff. Same with polio and small pox. Except for the poor ones and no way would we catch anything fromthem.

That stoopid government went and warped the markets by insisting on smokestack scrubbers when we all know the market would have eliminated smog.
We gotta do something about the government interfering with the "natural laws" of the marketplace when it comes to water contamination and ingredients in food products. Why not let-em put mercury in our hamburger and not tell us? It's our own damned fault if we don't test it before we buy, anyway!
We don't need the government holding our hands, and after thousands die the market will eventually self-correct.
Eventually.

Child labor and workplace safety laws are others, along with building codes that force contractors to install expensive fire retardant walls between townhouses or make sure wiring in apartment buildings is up to those awful government-imposed standards that make things more expensive for everyone. We can trust industry to install safe wiring without forcing them!

[StanUpshaw]

Who killed the electric car?

I dunno, but the REA most definitely killed wind power. Not only is it a bald-faced lie to suggest that without Franklin Delano Christ commanding "let there be light," rural America would not have had electricity, but in fact, an unintended consequence of the government's actions (ignored, as they so often are, by statist zealots like yourself) was the utter destruction of small-scale renewable energy production.

Berkeley Daily Gazette - Jul 9, 1935
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=sRkiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S6YFAAAAIBAJ&dq=wind%20electricity&pg=2708%2C787843




Oh...and about malaria?

100% attributable to impounding new reservoirs along the Tennessee Valley and giving mosquitoes such ample breeding ground.

[Syd]

fascist cronies have their back.

I don't think fascism is what you think it is -- fascism is the exact opposite of that, where the government cracks down on the population and the corporations.

But Obama did it, so it must be great.

if Obama did it, why did most of the exploratory for Peugeot start back in 2006? After the Fiat failure and GM sold off in 05, they went back to looking for diesels and small car chassis and eyed Peugeot/Citroen after that since Ford and VWAG have been dominating Europe and started to eye China, which is a huge cashcow for GM.