Should GM/Ford be allowed to fail?

[Zorro]

Bankruptcy or Bailout....

[JPMNICK]

Bankruptcy or Bailout....

might as well bail them out at this point, they did it for the banks

[Syd]

Bail them out, quite a few people have healthcare through GM/Ford/Mopar and whatever cities are left with those companies present have a lot of jobs associated with those workers. It'd be like what happened in Michigan for other states.

[dino_electropolis]

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6706

http://www.mentalfloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/435_1958%20Edsel%20Convert%20Green.JPG
They already have....plenty of times.....Ford's Edsel: biggest marketing failure in auto industry

[TheMojoPin]

Bail them out. We need to the auto industry when we start shifting to making more "green" cars here in America to create jobs.

[Zorro]

Bail them out. We need to the auto industry when we start shifting to making more "green" cars here in <s>America</s> China to create jobs.

Fixed

[Freitag]

Bail, but have them re-focus their business on models that are actually going to sell.

Chrysler screwed up majorly, I'm STILL wondering why they decided to discontinue the PT Cruiser vs. their other cars.

There is no need for Ford to have the Edge, Flex, Escape, and Explorer. Likewise, the Lincoln marque needs to be focused. Too much crossover just for a luxury marque when they are the same cars.

With GM, I'd get rid of the Hummer brand.

[Tallman388]

Bail them out, but make them rework the stupid union contracts.

[Dougie Brootal]

Bail them out. We need to the auto industry when we start shifting to making more "green" cars here in America to create jobs.

its frightening how much im starting to think like you.

[topless_mike]

bail them out. they did it for the airlines and banking industry.

put a stipulation on them. we own majority stake in the company. you need to go green NOW or else.

seriously. there is no reason that we still
<list>
have so many gas cars while the rest of the world runs diesel
have so many fuel-inefficient vehicles.
</list>

i agree. kill off the hummers, exploders, escalades, etc.

new govt mandate- min of 40mpg per car, 30 mpg per truck, all needs govt approval before production begins.


or, you can rally up the public, and boycott to take down one company at a time until some get the fire under their ass. the old ford motto "build it and they will buy it" has long been dead; take it off the motivation wall.


he who pays, says, right?

[El Mudo]

I say nope

I mean, IMO, its just base capitalism. Everyone in this thread has been pointing out exactly WHY GM/Ford is in the position it is...shitty business practices along with shitty products. Its no wonder why they've taken a dump for the last decade or two. In that sense, I can't really see as to why the Gov't would bail out a company that really doesn't deserve to be bailed out (and its not like they employ that many people any more anyway). IMO, it only ENCOURAGES them even more to keep building the same awful stuff with the same awful business plan, and I don't think its the Goverment's place to step in and bail out companies WITH stipulations. How does it enforce them? Do they just not bail out them next time when they need more money because they've run themselves back into the ground?

I understand people are nostalgic/enamoured with the names, but unfortunately, if they can't survive in the marketplace, theyve got to be put out of their misery...the cute baby bunny doesn't always survive.

[Zorro]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122608860916209213.html

America's Two Auto Industries

Government Aid to GM, Ford, Chrysler Could Preserve Old Way of Building and Selling Cars

America has two auto industries. The one represented by GM, Ford and Chrysler is Midwestern, unionized, burdened with massive obligations to retirees, and shackled to marketing and product strategies that have roots reaching back to the early 1900s.
The other American auto industry is largely Southern and non-union, owes relatively little to the few retirees it has, and enjoys a variety of advantages because its Japanese, European and Korean owners launched operations in this country relatively recently. Their factories are newer, their brand images and marketing strategies are more coherent -- Toyota uses three brands in the U.S. to GM's eight -- and they have cars designed for the competitive global market that exists today.
Honda Motor Co. sells one basic Civic world-wide. Ford sells two different versions of its rival Focus compact car. Ford is engineering one Focus to take advantage of global economies of scale, but the new car won't hit the U.S. market until 2010.

[TheMojoPin]

I say nope

I mean, IMO, its just base capitalism. Everyone in this thread has been pointing out exactly WHY GM/Ford is in the position it is...shitty business practices along with shitty products. Its no wonder why they've taken a dump for the last decade or two. In that sense, I can't really see as to why the Gov't would bail out a company that really doesn't deserve to be bailed out (and its not like they employ that many people any more anyway). IMO, it only ENCOURAGES them even more to keep building the same awful stuff with the same awful business plan, and I don't think its the Goverment's place to step in and bail out companies WITH stipulations. How does it enforce them? Do they just not bail out them next time when they need more money because they've run themselves back into the ground?

I understand people are nostalgic/enamoured with the names, but unfortunately, if they can't survive in the marketplace, theyve got to be put out of their misery...the cute baby bunny doesn't always survive.

We need the infrastucture these companies have/had to create jobs.

[DarkHippie]

What if the government invested in gm/ford instead of jsut giving them money. if they buy stock, they would have a say in what happens and hopefully keep them from messing up again?

Or is this just crazy. i dont know if i agree with it yet. i jsut want to hear positives and negatives outside my realm of thought

[CofyCrakCocaine]

I say nope

I mean, IMO, its just base capitalism. Everyone in this thread has been pointing out exactly WHY GM/Ford is in the position it is...shitty business practices along with shitty products. Its no wonder why they've taken a dump for the last decade or two. In that sense, I can't really see as to why the Gov't would bail out a company that really doesn't deserve to be bailed out (and its not like they employ that many people any more anyway). IMO, it only ENCOURAGES them even more to keep building the same awful stuff with the same awful business plan, and I don't think its the Goverment's place to step in and bail out companies WITH stipulations. How does it enforce them? Do they just not bail out them next time when they need more money because they've run themselves back into the ground?

I understand people are nostalgic/enamoured with the names, but unfortunately, if they can't survive in the marketplace, theyve got to be put out of their misery...the cute baby bunny doesn't always survive.

All of which is true, but I think the general fear (har har) is that this is going to serve as a catalyst/precedent for more businesses to tank/downsize/not be bailed out. Markets are run by people, so are companies, and when one person starts screaming bloody murder that there's a fire, groups can panic. 1929 is the obvious highlight of that mass of panic... so bailing out a company as big as GM would be designed to prevent that kind of freakout, amongst a billion other things.

I'm not saying all that would definitely result from GM going out, but it probably wouldn't help the mood out for everyone else to say the least.

[west milly Tom]

No bailout. I didn't agree with the banking bailout either. This country is built as much on Capitalism as Democracy. Big brother bailing out
failed business only delays and magnafies the real economic impact later. Lassie Fair bitches!

[El Mudo]

We need the infrastucture these companies have/had to create jobs.


But how? Even if they get Gov't money, are they going to spend it on jobs per se? We heard NOTHING but talk during the election about how places like Flint and Detroit are dying for lack of jobs. Are they going to get people to move BACK there to work in their plants? And is there really enough credible demand for "green" cars? I can't see any unless they make them uber cheap, which wouldn't be good for the bottom line of the companies anyway because I can't see anyone from the Red States buying them, and theres more people using public transportation anyway these days in my experience because there's more and more people moving back to the Cities and away from the suburbs

[El Mudo]

What if the government invested in gm/ford instead of jsut giving them money. if they buy stock, they would have a say in what happens and hopefully keep them from messing up again?

Or is this just crazy. i dont know if i agree with it yet. i jsut want to hear positives and negatives outside my realm of thought


Because thats socialism. There Government is there to regulate business, not be its partner. How can companies like Toyota and Nissan compete with a GM or Ford with the Federal Government as one of its stockholders?

[MadBiker]

I say nope

I mean, IMO, its just base capitalism. Everyone in this thread has been pointing out exactly WHY GM/Ford is in the position it is...shitty business practices along with shitty products. Its no wonder why they've taken a dump for the last decade or two. In that sense, I can't really see as to why the Gov't would bail out a company that really doesn't deserve to be bailed out (and its not like they employ that many people any more anyway). IMO, it only ENCOURAGES them even more to keep building the same awful stuff with the same awful business plan, and I don't think its the Goverment's place to step in and bail out companies WITH stipulations. How does it enforce them? Do they just not bail out them next time when they need more money because they've run themselves back into the ground?

I understand people are nostalgic/enamoured with the names, but unfortunately, if they can't survive in the marketplace, theyve got to be put out of their misery...the cute baby bunny doesn't always survive.

Agreed. Let them fail (which we know the gubmit will not let happen). Ford does not make most of its cars in America any longer, anyway. Their largest production factories for US and foreign sold models is in Mexico. Brands for sale in America, notably GM brands like Saturn, as well as models from Honda, Toyota, and Subaru are manufactured in the United States, keeping more American workers employed. The overwrought nostalgia for Ford et. al. is blinding people to the fact that we have propped up dying companies for far too long for no benefit to consumers or tax payers.

However, since the US Taxpayer is going to have money taken from him/her in order to bailout various failing industries, the government should absolutely stipulate how the business is going to be conducted in the future. This, however, is what we call socialism.

Government proves its inability to effectively oversee and manage anything, over and over again. Its like an enabling parent with a drug addicted child. It wants to help, but its unwilling to take the painful actions necessary to stop the self-destructive cycle.

[El Mudo]

All of which is true, but I think the general fear (har har) is that this is going to serve as a catalyst/precedent for more businesses to tank/downsize/not be bailed out. Markets are run by people, so are companies, and when one person starts screaming bloody murder that there's a fire, groups can panic. 1929 is the obvious highlight of that mass of panic... so bailing out a company as big as GM would be designed to prevent that kind of freakout, amongst a billion other things.

I'm not saying all that would definitely result from GM going out, but it probably wouldn't help the mood out for everyone else to say the least.

There was just an entire almost two year election cycle where the talk was of pretty much nothing but how bad the economy was...I don't think this will cause too many Good-Time Slim, Uncle Doobie, and the Great Frisco level Freakouts from the people

[Zorro]

We need the infrastucture these companies have/had to create jobs.

If GM, Chrysler or Ford has to declare bankruptcy their "infrastructure" will still be there for someone else to buy. Or they could operate under bankruptcy protection.

[DarkHippie]

Because thats socialism. There Government is there to regulate business, not be its partner. How can companies like Toyota and Nissan compete with a GM or Ford with the Federal Government as one of its stockholders?

Doesn't Japan do this already?

Also, the brits do this with the BBC, and France does it with all of their utilities.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

No bailout. I didn't agree with the banking bailout either. This country is built as much on Capitalism as Democracy. Big brother bailing out
failed business only delays and magnafies the real economic impact later. Lassie Fair bitches!

I don't think you know much about the kind of capitalism we exercise today versus the history of the nation. The kind of thing you're referring to has been around since the 50's, and the country is alot older than the 1950's. Just because there's private businesses making money does not mean that everyone in the nation were necessarily capitalistic. There were little things like "trust busters" at the turn of the 20th century, anti-monopoly laws, etc. all of which imply the country's market was built under some modicum of regulation, if rarely enforced.

We've been running buck-wild since the end of WWII and been applying literally the ideals of Adam Smith whose ideas were penned down some 2 and a half centuries ago in England, something markedly different from what this country was built on originally. For example, the country originally was dependent upon farmers (and in the South, on slaves)- where was the neoliberal free market at the time? It was controlled by fellows who half the time were born into wealth and status to begin with- hardly concurrent with the idea of Andrew Carnegie some hundred years later. Capitalism in today's sense of the word is anything but pro-farmer.

So while it's better than applied communism, I wouldn't go so far as to say that this country was 'built' on capitalism originally- that's about as meritous as saying capitalism is merely an extent of Protestantism simply because of the individuality each ideology espouses.

[MadBiker]

If GM, Chrysler or Ford has to declare bankruptcy their "infrastructure" will still be there for someone else to buy. Or they could operate under bankruptcy protection.

More jobs would likely be created by adding more infrastructure and/or retrofitting older facilities for new industries.

What are the implications for pensioners receiving benefits if either company operating under Chapter 11? In that case, then the US taxpayer will be paying de facto welfare to former employees of Ford, GM, and Chrysler because those private companies cannot honor the promises they made to workers they probably thought would be dead by now.

Not trying to be cold-hearted, but I am not sure a lot of companies with structured pension plans foresaw that workers would be collecting pensions at the full rate for over 30 years after retirement, nor that said pensioners would also be using the medical benefits that grew increasingly more expensive and complex as the years (and the health problems) set in.

[HBox]

Because thats socialism. There Government is there to regulate business, not be its partner. How can companies like Toyota and Nissan compete with a GM or Ford with the Federal Government as one of its stockholders?

The government has plenty of socialist policies and programs. This is not an argument. We do what works. We are not capitalist ideologues who will follow our ideology blindly off the cliff.

Also, why WOULDN'T GM or Ford be able to compete with the government as a shareholder?

[MadBiker]

The government has plenty of socialist policies and programs. This is not an argument. We do what works. We are not capitalist ideologues who will follow our ideology blindly off the cliff.

Also, why WOULDN'T GM or Ford be able to compete with the government as a shareholder?

Because the government can selectively regulate the industry, forcing Honda and Toyota to comply with certain policies that make them less competitive than Ford, or at least level the playing field so its investment can be protected?

Just because we have other socialist policies and programs does not mean they necessarily belong in place. No, we should not follow ideology blindly, but not allowing the market to correct itself perpetuates a cycle of inflation and artificial profit that will eventually collapse. The government can only print so much empty money before people realize its value as wallpaper is more than its value to purchase a loaf of bread.

[Zorro]

The government has plenty of socialist policies and programs. This is not an argument. We do what works. We are not capitalist ideologues who will follow our ideology blindly off the cliff.

Also, why WOULDN'T GM or Ford be able to compete with the government as a shareholder?

Mudo actually raises a good point. Why are Toyota and Honda able to compete? By bailing out GM/Ford aren't you rewarding failure?

As to why the government should not be a shareholder... becuase the goals of each are at odds with the other. A corporation's duty is to maximize profit to the shareholders. The government's duty is to be fair and equitable.

[HBox]

You can't have a whole industry disappear overnight and not have its ripple effects affect everyone. All this talk of fairness and everything else is secondary to that. Not only will you have a ton of people jobless, you will have tons of seniors losing income and health care (and who do you think will pay for that?).

Everyone advocating no bailouts should take a second to think what that would mean today. We'd have a devastated and functionally crippled banking industry and the entire American car industry on its way out the door. Stopping this, or at least slowing down and softening the blow of the eventual demise should avoiding it be impossible, is very much the job of the government. The government can't just sit aside and allow another Great Depression to come upon us. And I will just never understand why some people are actually advocating this.

In the end I think Honda and Toyota want GM and Ford bailed out. The economic effects of their collapse will not end at our borders.

[mendyweiss]

Even With Bailout, Customers Are Still Going To Have To Go To Indiana ANd Buy Cars From Jughead !!

[Zorro]

You can't have a whole industry disappear overnight and not have its ripple effects affect everyone. All this talk of fairness and everything else is secondary to that. Not only will you have a ton of people jobless, you will have tons of seniors losing income and health care (and who do you think will pay for that?).

Everyone advocating no bailouts should take a second to think what that would mean today. We'd have a devastated and functionally crippled banking industry and the entire American car industry on its way out the door. Stopping this, or at least slowing down and softening the blow of the eventual demise should avoiding it be impossible, is very much the job of the government. The government can't just sit aside and allow another Great Depression to come upon us. And I will just never understand why some people are actually advocating this.

In the end I think Honda and Toyota want GM and Ford bailed out. The economic effects of their collapse will not end at our borders.

The bailout of banking is a very separate issue. It was the governments lack of regulation and oversight of the banking industry that caused the collapse. Since they bear responsibility they had an obligation to help fix it.

With the "american" auto industry the problems occured because of inept management. By bailing them out you are choosing one group of companies over another and removing demand as the primary motivator and replacing it with command. Like the old Soviet Union you'll be producing products nobody wants but are still produced in effect by the government

[SatCam]

Let them fail. These companies should have gone out of business in the '70s

[HBox]

The bailout of banking is a very separate issue. It was the governments lack of regulation and oversight of the banking industry that caused the collapse. Since they bear responsibility they had an obligation to help fix it.

With the "american" auto industry the problems occured because of inept management. By bailing them out you are choosing one group of companies over another and removing demand as the primary motivator and replacing it with command. Like the old Soviet Union you'll be producing products nobody wants but are still produced in effect by the government

But by that logic I could just as easily say that the government's very loose fuel mileage standards contributed to GM and Ford's problems.

[scottinnj]

Bail them out. We need to the auto industry when we start shifting to making more "green" cars here in America to create jobs.

Disagree. They're like the airline industry. Keep 'em on the government tit, they'll never change. We've done it once already, and their business models have not changed a bit. If a collapse means the end of GM and Chrylser, then the market will replace them with what consumers want: fuel-efficient, alternative energy burining autos.

And I'm a Chevy man, and have been all my life. But if they don't change their ways, I'll go Toyota in a heartbeat when GM goes down in flames.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Business bad? Fuck you, pay me. Oh, you had a fire? Fuck you, pay me. Place got hit by lightning? Fuck you, pay me

Hm.

[scottinnj]

Let them fail. These companies should have gone out of business in the '70s

The irony was that Lee Iaccoca did a marvelous thing with Chrysler, by actually apologizing to Americans for building shitty cars for years and years, and keeping his promise to build good, fuel-efficient cars.

The K-car was phenomenal for its day. A compact 4-door with a 4 cylinder fuel injected motor with a computer to control the ignition. And it was AFFORDABLE!

Then he built the Caravan, the industry's first "mini-van" which was the death of the station wagon. Again, a fuel efficient 4 cylinder, or an optional 6 cylinder, and removable seats for added cargo area, Dodge could not make enough of them.

And he paid the loan off Congress authorized to give Chrysler. Not only did he pay it off, he paid it off early, and took Chrysler from the edge of bankruptcy to zero debt before he left the company.

Nowadays, these dummies couldn't run a local dollar store, much less a billion-dollar company. The only way I would feel comfortable with a fed bailout is if the Big Three throw their CEOs out of a window and hire someone who knows what a car is supposed to do, and more importantly, knows what the public wants and how to deliver the product quickly and affordably.

[SouthSideJohnny]

Can someone please explain how our government is paying for these bailouts? The gov't doesn't have its own money - it either taxes more, prints more money, or increases the deficit. Discretionary spending only makes up about 18% of our annual budget, so even significant spending cuts aren’t going to make a real difference in the government’s ability to bailout industries.

Taxing people to pay for these bailouts (as well as paying current operating expenses) is only going to go so far. The more taxes are increased, the less likely those taxpayers will be to replace their cars with new ones. That's the worse thing that can happen for the auto industry.

Printing more money is surely not the answer. Inflating the money supply makes our dollars worth less which results in goods and services becoming more expensive. This is essentially a hidden tax which harms the lower and middle class most.

Running up the deficit is just going to make our national economic problems even worse. We’re already at the point where other countries aren’t investing in our debt for fear of default, so running up the deficit is just going to make it worse. That, in turn, contracts the credit markets even more which is going to make our economic situation a lot worse!

I recognize that ending the war on Iraq (assuming that will actually happen) is going to significantly cut our spending, but the reality is that we’re paying for the war with the country’s credit card. I agree that the money being spent in the US makes more sense, but the only way we’re going to bailout companies here is by using the same credit card.

[scottinnj]

And I will just never understand why some people are actually advocating this.

In the end I think Honda and Toyota want GM and Ford bailed out. The economic effects of their collapse will not end at our borders.

I'm advocating this because it's not just our economy being hurt this time. It's worldwide. The Depression hurt us almost exclusively because we were too nationalistic with the economy.

The hoopla being made over GM and Ford in the news is hiding some more important news:

Nissan and Toyota are getting their asses kicked too. It's not just because GM and Ford are making "shitty cars" as some people think. In fact, they aren't. They are making as good or even better models and are on par with the imports. It's just that nobody is buying anything right now, and the proof is that even though GM is suffering, it still outsold Nissan in the US, and Nissan sales are off 33 % from this time last year.

But GM's business model stinks on ice. It delivers vehicles to the market with a "Me Too" attitude-Toyota makes the Matrix, begins to dominate the compact car market, and two years later Chevy comes out with the Aveo, and says here's our answer to the Matrix. "Toyota makes a dependable, cool looking fuel-efficient vehicle, 'Me Too'"

They replace the Cavalier with the Cobalt with little fanfare, instead, concentrate advertising on the new Siveradoes, all the while gas prices are at the beginning of the spiral upwards we just got through. So it's no shit the consumer sees a Siverado ad for a pickup that gets 14 MPG that costs 40,000 dollars to get the cool stuff vs. a Matrix ad for a fuel-efficient car that has all the cool stuff for 2/3 the price of the pickup that's gonna cost them 100 dollars every 5 days to fillup.

But this recession isn't just hurting GM, Ford and Chrysler. It may be affeting them more then the Jap brands, but that's because of the stupidity they have exercised throughout the years regarding labor costs, both with the union workers and with an over-bloated management staff. They have to come up with a way to run these companies and get the product built at a better cost to us before I agree to give them another dime of my tax money.

And if we bail out the "American" brands, how is that fair to the Americans who sell, repair and work in the industry that provides parts for the "foreign" brands? There are plenty of factories here in America that build Toyotas, Subarus, Nissans and Hondas, and the parts are mostly made here too. Not to mention all the dealerships, the service centers and companies that make repair parts for them.

Simply bailing out one section of an industry will not save the industry. It only artificially props up the few that suck at building/selling cars while the rest of the industry continues to suffer, when it all is a result of people not buying any of the cars.

[scottinnj]

increases the deficit.


Bingo! And the disgusting part about it, there is a law that forces Congress to vote to raise the budget deficit allowance, even before they vote to put us deeper into debt. So these dummies know what they are getting us into, because they vote on how much debt we're getting ourselves in twice.

Fuckos.

[scottinnj]

With GM, I'd get rid of the Hummer brand.


Why that useless piece of shit still gets a green light from GM is a mystery to me, and an insult to the intelligence of every American who knows what an SUV should be used for.

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[furie]

The big 3 are only worth saving if they move away from building cars overseas. if they take the money, then there should be a stipulation that the vehicles are actually produced in the US.

[Freakshow]

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2008-01/shipment-of-fail.jpg

so obvious, but so fun

[scottinnj]

The big 3 are only worth saving if they move away from building cars overseas. if they take the money, then there should be a stipulation that the vehicles are actually produced in the US.

Yeah, that's the irony of this.

My Chevy S-10 was made in Mexico.

My Monte Carlo was made in Canada.

My boss's fleet of Subarus and Hondas were made in Indiana and Ohio.

Go figure.

[scottinnj]

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2008-01/shipment-of-fail.jpg

so obvious, but so fun

Blow Me (http://www.soundsnap.com/audio/mp3/81363/Horn%20cruise%20ship_BLASTWAVEFX_17715.mp3) :clap:

[rick9669]

i say no bail out the oil comp. screwed american car comp. when the spiked the oil prices.. and detroit was still building giant suvs after taking a beating from japan,, detroit suddenly begain to sell cars that get 30mpg.....the auto comp. have the tech. to build HHO vehicles or bio-deisel vehicles that run on veg. oil. even electric cars the country will return to detroit and pay more for alternate fuel vehicles detroit must change there way of doing business:surrender:

[Zorro]

But by that logic I could just as easily say that the government's very loose fuel mileage standards contributed to GM and Ford's problems.

You could if they're weren't companies that given exactly the same set of rules are extremely successful.

[outlawfrank]

I am really having a hard time with this topic. I own my own restaurants in the detroit area. And as a die hard capitalist I don't want to see the government bail them out. But the D is really a one trick pony. If the Big Three fail so do the rest of us. It is not just the car companies that will crumble but also the secondary companies which are reliant on them. Many of these companies are very well run, this could do a lot of damage. I also blame the current trouble on the state of michigan. As many states are adopting a technical/white-collar friendly workforce, Michigan continues to believe that manufacturing is the way to grow.

Let this happen and let natural order have its way, it will crumble Michigan economy. I will survive, I am third generation in my families company. We have been in business for forty years and I feel if I don't begin to expand out of state, ten years from now I will be forced to. Detroit's worst days are in front of them.

[celery]

I hope so. I've had my eye on a 2009 Faildozer GT.

[HBox]

But the D is really a one trick pony.

Is it COOOOOWWWWDD IN DA D?

[HBox]

You could if they're weren't companies that given exactly the same set of rules are extremely successful.

Good point.

But I still don't think we can let them die. Not now anyway. Not because of whether they deserve it or not, but because how it will affect the rest of us. Ideally we need to force them to downsize, which I think they are looking to do anyway. That would still mean short term hurt, but its better than short term disaster. If they still eventually fail, they eventually fail. But if they do we've made their eventual collapse smoother, spacing out the damage over a longer period of time.

And long term, and this is the most important thing, we need to stop allowing these companies to become too big too fail. This applies to the banking industry too. And it could apply everywhere. We need to stop letting these huge companies merge. If a company gets big enough they become ingrained into the economy so much that they would take out so much if they fail. This needs to stop.

[Fez4PrezN2008]

Let 'em burn. I belive in the economic theory of creative destruction. Out with the old and in the the new and efficient.

[SP1!]

They already bailed out chrysler in the 80s why not again?

[scottinnj]

They already bailed out chrysler in the 80s why not again?

The market has changed since then. The imports back then were true imports, made in Japan. Letting Chrysler go under then would have been a lot worse for the US economy then now, because back then the auto industry was much more nationalized then it is now.

But I guessing the bailout will happen, and with a lot less demands then we put on Chrysler back then. Iaccoca was on his hands and knees for the loan the US gave Chrysler, but politicians nowadays will bailout anything if it means votes for them come election day.

It's a stupid cycle. On one hand, they talk about the "new economy" where labor is shipped overseas and promise "service sector" jobs to replace them. But when something like this is presented to them, they fall away from their rhetoric and give the CEOs whatever they want, using our money to pay for it.
Has anyone even heard about any demands the politicians are putting on these companies in exchange for the money? A change in leadership? A new quality standard? Price controls or tougher MPG standards? I'd be curious to see what comes of this, but I can almost guarantee the auto industry is going to get what it wants-I just hope it gets a leader like Iaccoca again to really shake up how Detroit makes cars.

[Zorro]

Good point.

But I still don't think we can let them die. Not now anyway. Not because of whether they deserve it or not, but because how it will affect the rest of us. Ideally we need to force them to downsize, which I think they are looking to do anyway. That would still mean short term hurt, but its better than short term disaster. If they still eventually fail, they eventually fail. But if they do we've made their eventual collapse smoother, spacing out the damage over a longer period of time.

And long term, and this is the most important thing, we need to stop allowing these companies to become too big too fail. This applies to the banking industry too. And it could apply everywhere. We need to stop letting these huge companies merge. If a company gets big enough they become ingrained into the economy so much that they would take out so much if they fail. This needs to stop.

I think you might be confusing bankruptcy with "going out of business". Like other large companies they would reorganize under bankruptcy and it would allow them to change contracts, labor agreements etc...they would in effect be doing what they need to do to survive instead of trying to continue a failed system while suckling the governments tit.

If you're going to spend the money let's spend it on the people that would be hurt by the fallout of a bankruptcy. To simply delay the inevitible or use the peoples money to let these schmucks fuck things up more is silly.

My feeling after reading about this stuff day after day is that the banking system is likened to a utility. Credit is the electricity needed to run the system and so everyone has a stake in making sure it keeps flowing. The Big Three on the other hand are arrogant industries that failed to plan and spent decades getting into this situation. What's next do we bail out newspapers because their business model no longer works, but they are important to local economies or do we say hey Starbucks you fucked up too so here's a few billion to get straightened. This is corporate welfare at its worst and i am sorely disappointed at my party and new president for going along.

Lastly the notion that this is a crisis and has to be dealt with today is the oldest sales gimmick in the world.

[topless_mike]

well, if they are, they better act fast.

linky link the linkerton (http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/11/news/companies/GM/index.htm?postversion=2008111112)


Jeff Embersits, chief investment officer at Shareholder Value Management and an owner of GM stock, said there's only one thing that can save the company: "The consumer needs to come out of the toilet and somebody needs to start buying cars."

yeah, that'll win friends and influence people.
jackass.

[Recyclerz]

This WSJ opinion piece probably has it about right.

Shoot mgmt. first, then bail them out. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122628230122212449.html)

The political problem that the Democrats have with this issue is that the UAW has, over the past half century, had the pimp hand with Detroit's management and out-negotiated them to the point where the Unions have legal rights to benefits that the economics of the American-based car companies can no longer fufill. I think the union leadership knows this but doesn't want to go to the membership and say we have to give back benefits and get nothing in return, but the inertia of the status quo is choking out the industry.

I think this problem is another argument in favor of removing health care coverage from the current employer provided norm and making it available through some universally available forum. All the other industrialized countries have it and the current system is a roadblock to creating new jobs in the US.

[albo60s]

Bankruptcy or Bailout....

No bailout, let them go bankrupt.
Then all the expensive union contracts are voided.
Start over with streamlined, modern auto companies.
Putting a bumper on a car should pay $15 an hour max.
I read that average compensation for GM employees is $81 per hour!!!
Toyota around $45.
The government can't save everyone. Maybe we should just stop with the bailouts & let things play out, take our medicine for a few years.

[K.C.]

This WSJ opinion piece probably has it about right.

Shoot mgmt. first, then bail them out. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122628230122212449.html)

The political problem that the Democrats have with this issue is that the UAW has, over the past half century, had the pimp hand with Detroit's management and out-negotiated them to the point where the Unions have legal rights to benefits that the economics of the American-based car companies can no longer fufill. I think the union leadership knows this but doesn't want to go to the membership and say we have to give back benefits and get nothing in return, but the inertia of the status quo is choking out the industry.

I think this problem is another argument in favor of removing health care coverage from the current employer provided norm and making it available through some universally available forum. All the other industrialized countries have it and the current system is a roadblock to creating new jobs in the US.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about it.

They need to do something about the complete ineptitude of the management in these companies, whether it's a partial government take over, with the bailout, or something else.

These companies can't fail, though, because it will kill to many people who depend on them.

And I've always maintained that universal health care would be an employer's best friend.

[K.C.]

Then all the expensive union contracts are voided.
Start over with streamlined, modern auto companies.
Putting a bumper on a car should pay $15 an hour max.
I read that average compensation for GM employees is $81 per hour!!!
Toyota around $45.
The government can't save everyone. Maybe we should just stop with the bailouts & let things play out, take our medicine for a few years.

First off it's $75 per hour. Second, that's not salary...it's a number that attempts to value the combined total of salary, benefits, and pensions.

Toyota pays that same as GM in salary...just less in benefits.

A universal health care package would curtail a lot of benefit spending by businesses, although I'm sure some would offer perks on top of the government universal health care.

The problem with 'taking our medicine' on this one is that the fall of GM and Ford is something that a large number of people, and certain regions of the country, will NEVER recover from.

People joined the UAW because the auto industry was one of the few manual labor jobs left that allowed someone to comfortably raise a family without a college education.

Those people will never find jobs close to that again.

And when you take as large a number of people as are employed by the U.S. auto industry and tell them that they're going to go from middle class to just barely over the poverty line overnight, that will create chaos like we have not seen yet, and it will trickle down through the entire market.

In the long run, it's better to bailout in some capacity. But something has to be done to fix the management of these companies. The U.S. government can't issue a bailout only to allow the management of GM and Ford to continue to fuck up.

There needs to be some form of government oversight in these companies. At least short term.

Once these companies get back on their feet, the government can sell their stake back to the private sector.

[HBox]

I think you might be confusing bankruptcy with "going out of business". Like other large companies they would reorganize under bankruptcy and it would allow them to change contracts, labor agreements etc...they would in effect be doing what they need to do to survive instead of trying to continue a failed system while suckling the governments tit.

If you're going to spend the money let's spend it on the people that would be hurt by the fallout of a bankruptcy. To simply delay the inevitible or use the peoples money to let these schmucks fuck things up more is silly.

My feeling after reading about this stuff day after day is that the banking system is likened to a utility. Credit is the electricity needed to run the system and so everyone has a stake in making sure it keeps flowing. The Big Three on the other hand are arrogant industries that failed to plan and spent decades getting into this situation. What's next do we bail out newspapers because their business model no longer works, but they are important to local economies or do we say hey Starbucks you fucked up too so here's a few billion to get straightened. This is corporate welfare at its worst and i am sorely disappointed at my party and new president for going along.

Lastly the notion that this is a crisis and has to be dealt with today is the oldest sales gimmick in the world.

It's highly doubtful that GM, Ford or Chrysler would survive bankruptcy. (http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=a4893b49-36df-4784-9859-2dfa3a3211bf)

One reason for the casual support for letting GM fail is the assumption that bankruptcy would be no big deal: As USA Today editorialized recently, "Bankruptcy need not mean that the company disappears." But, while it's worked out that way for the airlines, among others, it's unlikely a GM business failure would play out in the same fashion. In order to seek so-called Chapter 11 status, a distressed company must find some way to operate while the bankruptcy court keeps creditors at bay. But GM can't build cars without parts, and it can't get parts without credit. Chapter 11 companies typically get that sort of credit from something called Debtor-in-Possession (DIP) loans. But the same Wall Street meltdown that has dragged down the economy and GM sales has also dried up the DIP money GM would need to operate.

That's why many analysts and scholars believe GM would likely end up in Chapter 7 bankruptcy, which would entail total liquidation. The company would close its doors, immediately throwing more than 100,000 people out of work. And, according to experts, the damage would spread quickly. Automobile parts suppliers in the United States rely disproportionately on GM's business to stay afloat. If GM shut down, many if not all of the suppliers would soon follow. Without parts, Chrysler, Ford, and eventually foreign-owned factories in the United States would have to cease operations. From Toledo to Tuscaloosa, the nation's?assembly lines could go silent, sending a chill through their local economies as the idled workers stopped spending money.

[KingKill]

They should not be supported by tax payer money.

[scottinnj]

They should not be supported by tax payer money.

On this, we agree. At least with the current management. It needs to leave the company with lead parachutes.

[Syd]

Lastly the notion that this is a crisis and has to be dealt with today is the oldest sales gimmick in the world.

Not really -- if they were to fail, a string of collapsing businesses would follow. If your state can't see water, is New Jersey or can see the Great Lakes expect one hell of a budget crisis as well as having even worse home values. It's not that the big 3 are important, its that a huge swath of the nation still has jobs tied to making cars. Even foreign marques will by hit by the continuing economic downturn. There's no winner if they fail.

[K.C.]

Not really -- if they were to fail, a string of collapsing businesses would follow. If your state can't see water, is New Jersey or can see the Great Lakes expect one hell of a budget crisis as well as having even worse home values. It's not that the big 3 are important, its that a huge swath of the nation still has jobs tied to making cars. Even foreign marques will by hit by the continuing economic downturn. There's no winner if they fail.

Very true.

You'd lose half a million jobs between the three companies, and a good portion of those people would be permanently economically realigned from middle class to lower class, because of their backgrounds.

The effects of that would be felt everywhere in the market.

The Big 3 failing would create a full blown Great Depression.


There's two options I see.

#1 - Government temporarily buys a sizable portion of the auto industry, and thus gains decision making authority on the future course of the business. If and when the American auto industry becomes viable again, they re-sell to the private sector.

#2 - In lieu of a buyout, the Government creates an equivalent number of jobs in public works projects, rebuilding America's infrastructure. In that circumstance, the market could better stomach the failure of the Big 3, because it wouldn't create an unemployment crisis.


But anyone who suggests we do nothing here, I don't think understands the severity of the situation and how closely the auto industry is tied to the rest of America's industries.

It would be nothing short of catastrophic to everything.



...of course, there's some positives. Detroit will probably burn up in a fiery, riot-induced, cauldron of death. So that's a plus...

[scottinnj]

Why can't we just let GM declare bankruptcy, re-organize and become separate companies, killing off what is dragging them down, (Buick, Pontiac, GMC Trucks and Hummer) and work on making the parts that sell (Chevy, Saturn and Cadillac) better, separate independant companies? GM itself can and should go away and those makes that survive the bankruptcy will be better companies as a result, able to react to the market needs faster then they are now with the enormous beauracracy GMC has become.

[scottinnj]

...of course, there's some positives. Detroit will probably burn up in a fiery, riot-induced, cauldron of death. So that's a plus...

That's why I like you so much K.C., always the optimist. Every cloud has a silver lining, that's what I say!

[HBox]

Why can't we just let GM declare bankruptcy, re-organize and become separate companies, killing off what is dragging them down, (Buick, Pontiac, GMC Trucks and Hummer) and work on making the parts that sell (Chevy, Saturn and Cadillac) better, separate independant companies? GM itself can and should go away and those makes that survive the bankruptcy will be better companies as a result, able to react to the market needs faster then they are now with the enormous beauracracy GMC has become.

It's highly doubtful that GM, Ford or Chrysler would survive bankruptcy.

That's why many analysts and scholars believe GM would likely end up in Chapter 7 bankruptcy, which would entail total liquidation. The company would close its doors, immediately throwing more than 100,000 people out of work. And, according to experts, the damage would spread quickly. Automobile parts suppliers in the United States rely disproportionately on GM's business to stay afloat. If GM shut down, many if not all of the suppliers would soon follow. Without parts, Chrysler, Ford, and eventually foreign-owned factories in the United States would have to cease operations. From Toledo to Tuscaloosa, the nation's?assembly lines could go silent, sending a chill through their local economies as the idled workers stopped spending money. (http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=a4893b49-36df-4784-9859-2dfa3a3211bf)

They aren't going to be able to find enough credit to sustain themselves through Chapter 11. One proposal I've heard today and one that I have been thinking about since I read this article is that GM enter bankruptcy and the government provides the credit to sustain GM through it.

Unfortunately at this point there doesn't seem to be a scenario where we spend nothing and Detroit survives.

[scottinnj]

BTW, if we do bail them out, all things being equal, how does it help? What makes the bailout automatically cause Americans to go out and buy cars?

The reason why Detroit is in trouble is because nobody is buying the product, along with every other make in the world. It's not just GM and Ford in trouble, they are just the ones who are closest to the bottom.

Do we bailout Toyota, Subaru, Honda and Nissan as well? Nissan sales are down 33%from last year, which means they are doing worse then GM. But American jobs depend on Nissan and all the other makes I've mentioned-they all have manufacturing done here. So where is the concern over these companies?

And how long will GM last after a bailout if the situation of nobody buying their cars continues? Do we bail them out again? Or do we let them fail?

[midwestjeff]

The big three killed my baby.

Turn-about is fairplay.

[Jughead]

Because our futures are linked, I want you to know that General Motors is doing everything possible to deal with the impact the financial crisis is having on the domestic auto industry. Yet despite our successful efforts to restructure, reduce costs and enhance liquidity, we are facing an uphill battle with the current administration and Congress in securing a bridge loan.

That's why we need your help now. Simply put, we need you to join us to let Congress know that a bridge loan to help U.S. automakers also helps strengthen the U.S. economy and preserve millions of American jobs.

Despite what you may be hearing, we are not asking Congress for a bailout but rather a loan that will be repaid.

The consequences of the domestic auto industry collapsing would far exceed the $25 billion loan needed to bridge the current crisis. According to a recent study by the Center for Automotive Research:

• One in 10 American jobs depends on U.S. automakers
• Nearly 3 million jobs are at immediate risk
• U.S. personal income could be reduced by $150 billion
• The tax revenue lost over 3 years would be more than $156 billion

Discussions are now underway in Washington, D.C., concerning loans to support U.S. carmakers. I am asking you to support this vital effort by contacting your representatives.

Please take a few minutes to call your representatives by dialing 1-866-471-5332. Just state your name and address, and your message will reach your legislators. You can review a script that will help you state your support at gmfactsandfiction.com. Under the "Mobilize Now" section, click on "I'm a Supplier." If you would rather e-mail your representatives, use the link "I'm a Concerned American."

Please share this information with friends and family using the link on the site.

Thank you for helping keep our economy viable.

Sincerely,

I deleted name..JUG

[Zorro]

Because our futures are linked, I want you to know that General Motors is doing everything possible to deal with the impact the financial crisis is having on the domestic auto industry. Yet despite our successful efforts to restructure, reduce costs and enhance liquidity, we are facing an uphill battle with the current administration and Congress in securing a bridge loan.

That's why we need your help now. Simply put, we need you to join us to let Congress know that a bridge loan to help U.S. automakers also helps strengthen the U.S. economy and preserve millions of American jobs.

Despite what you may be hearing, we are not asking Congress for a bailout but rather a loan that will be repaid.

The consequences of the domestic auto industry collapsing would far exceed the $25 billion loan needed to bridge the current crisis. According to a recent study by the Center for Automotive Research:

• One in 10 American jobs depends on U.S. automakers
• Nearly 3 million jobs are at immediate risk
• U.S. personal income could be reduced by $150 billion
• The tax revenue lost over 3 years would be more than $156 billion

Discussions are now underway in Washington, D.C., concerning loans to support U.S. carmakers. I am asking you to support this vital effort by contacting your representatives.

Please take a few minutes to call your representatives by dialing 1-866-471-5332. Just state your name and address, and your message will reach your legislators. You can review a script that will help you state your support at gmfactsandfiction.com. Under the "Mobilize Now" section, click on "I'm a Supplier." If you would rather e-mail your representatives, use the link "I'm a Concerned American."

Please share this information with friends and family using the link on the site.

Thank you for helping keep our economy viable.

Sincerely,

I deleted name..JUG

FIGURES NEVER LIE, BUT LIARS FIGURE
-Mark Twain

I'm sure we've all heard that quote a million times and speaking of a million the "3 miilion" jobs lost includes car was attendants. The numbers are bloated and we're not talking about just 25 billion. When asked not one of the CEO's would say wouldn't be ask for more.

I'd rather drop the 25 billion on the UAW and say here take care of your members.

[Zorro]

Not too bright

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n67/Chas4604/111908_FLYINGINLUXURY.jpg

[scottinnj]

I got one of those emails from Hendrick Motor Sports, with a "personal" plea from all of the boys

Rick, the boss

Jefferey, the Vineyard owning crybaby

Jimmie Johnson, who just got a championship check for 7.5 million

And my favorite (not kidding) driver, Dale Earnhardt Jr. who earned 4.6 million this season while managing to finish dead fucking last in the Chase standings.



I love Chevrolet, but don't scare me with "we're in danger of losing our sponsors" when it costs each team about 15 million a season to race a car.

[Jughead]

Not too bright

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n67/Chas4604/111908_FLYINGINLUXURY.jpg

Exactly what my Business manager said!!!when He read this..Bunch of dummys:wallbash:

[PerryWinkle]

I'm not sure if anyone asked this already, but my question is, if the government bails out the Big 3, how does it help because it doesn't insure that we'll buy new cars. If they don't up sales, their rigtht back in the same position.

[HBox]

This is an alternative to bailing out the auto companies I suppose: Chinese carmakers SAIC and Dong Feng planning to buy GM and Chrysler. (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/breaking-news-chinese-may-buy-gm-and-chrysler/)

Opinions on this development?

[scottinnj]

This is an alternative to bailing out the auto companies I suppose: Chinese carmakers SAIC and Dong Feng planning to buy GM and Chrysler. (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/breaking-news-chinese-may-buy-gm-and-chrysler/)

Opinions on this development?

I may sound like a jerk, but Budweiser got bought out by ImBev, and it still tastes the same to me. And I wasn't a big fan of the takeover (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showthread.php?t=70345&highlight=You+Can%27t+Buy+The+King%21) as many of you know.

Hyundai (Korea) should be a model to Detroit as to how to get market niche with a dependable, inexpensive, fuel-efficient car and build on that to create a consumer demand that always comes back to the company to replace what they have or upgrade to a better model.

[scottinnj]

The Chinese could easily export Made-in-China VWs, Toyotas, Buicks. If their joint venture partner would let them. The solution: Buy the joint venture partner.

I'm sorry, but that really made me laugh. We used to be good at that sort of thing here in the US, and then we fucked up and let Sony buy our transistors for their rice-cookers in the early 50s. It was a matter of time since then.

[Don Stugots]

after seeing their smug faces on the news, i say yes.

[Zorro]

I'm sorry, but that really made me laugh. We used to be good at that sort of thing here in the US, and then we fucked up and let Sony buy our transistors for their rice-cookers in the early 50s. It was a matter of time since then.

Actually we gave them the technology for the VCR because we couldn't figure out a use for it

[epo]

According to the Detroit Free Press:

Congress considers stricter demands for auto bailout (http://www.freep.com/article/20081118/BUSINESS01/811180314?imw=Y)

Congress should instead accelerate the existing $25 billion already appropriated for the auto industry by amending the Energy Department's loan program -- but only for those firms that make the difficult choices and do the restructuring necessary to become viable without additional taxpayer subsidies," Perino said in a statement.

Rep. Barney Frank, the Massachusetts Democrat who oversaw the House version, said House Democrats rejected the idea of modifying the $25 billion in retooling loans "because simply spending more money on existing practices cannot be justified."

Levin said that he was open to changes in his bill, using whatever money could be agreed to, but that Democrats in both chambers favored using the financial bailout money and leaving the retooling loans intact to speed the development of more fuel-efficient vehicles.

It's an interesting read for those so inclined. I'm surprised the Wall Street bailout didn't have such stipulations/regulations attached to it...as let's face it, if we as taxpayers are going to bail them out then we the taxpayers should get something in the deal.

[scottinnj]

Here's a little blurb in that article that caught my eye:

But the version backed by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi released late Monday makes far stricter demands on the industry, giving the government veto power over major business decisions.

Uh, that doesn't make me feel so good about this bailout. I'm still a capitalist after all.

[Zorro]

According to the Detroit Free Press:

Congress considers stricter demands for auto bailout (http://www.freep.com/article/20081118/BUSINESS01/811180314?imw=Y)



It's an interesting read for those so inclined. I'm surprised the Wall Street bailout didn't have such stipulations/regulations attached to it...as let's face it, if we as taxpayers are going to bail them out then we the taxpayers should get something in the deal.

It's a good article, but doesn't break any new ground. There's never been any question that if the Big 3 got the money there wouldn't be thick strings attached. The question is will a bailout be a bridge to restoring the industry or a bridge to nowhere?

I don't know that anyone has a real answer. Tonight on CNBC Barney Frank's only argument was we bailed out the financial sector so a bailout of automakers is eminently fair and this is about jobs. The counter was that the entire financial sector was in trouble, but here you have successful companies not asking for money and you want to fund the unsuccessful ones.

I'm not smart enough to know the right answer, but if I were to go with my gut I'd save the 25 billion and use it for the workers that are hurt if the companies actually fail. I would much rather being paying some guys health insurance bill than propping up Rick Wagoner and his 8.5 mil annual salary

[SKANE]

It's a tough one. On one side they have a huge overhead with retiree obligations that makes you wonder how soon they will be back asking for more money. How much are we into AIG already? 100 B? The 25 B is going to hold them over for how long? Do they have the product coming out in the near future that everyone who is paranoid to spend any money on is going to want to buy?
On the other hand if we let them go into bankruptcy the consumer confidence is going straight into the toilet. Never mind what will happen to their suppliers who are dependent on them. Look what happened after Lehman, which in my opinion was a huge mistake. Credit markets froze and the market nose dived below 8000. I understand that Lehman wasn't the only reason for this but I think the fear that it caused is part of it. GM is a $2 stock, F is a $1 stock, Citi is a $6 stock and GS is down from a $235 year high to $55. There are so many good companies whose stock has plummeted yet I sit on the sidelines waiting to buy for fear they are the next ones to go under.
Bail them out with caveats. New management. If they are stupid enough to fly to DC in a private plane with their hats in hand looking for money they don't deserve to be in those positions. Let the government take over retiree obligations. We are giving them money anyway. New union contracts. Sorry. If you want the jobs to still be here this is what they are now going to pay. Let the government or some other outside party mediate this.
Then again, what do I know. I just would hate to see us throw money at a problem again and again and again.

[scottinnj]

....but if I were to go with my gut I'd save the 25 billion and use it for the workers that are hurt if the companies actually fail............

Rick and his stupid salary and his faggot corporate jet aside, I'm with you on this. I've said I'm a capitalist, but I'm not Anthony and refuse to live in a country where victims of corporate stupidity suffer by losing their home and have to get a second mortgage to pay for healthcare costs.

The counter argument is "hey, they were in the UAW and helped create this mess"
Well, if I were a worker for GM or Ford, and saw the boss flying into Detroit on a jet my work pays for, I'd be right in there asking for my share of the pie too. And I just can't see workers being laid off and losing what they worked for while GM retools its assembly plants-all the time the CEO and Board of Directors never worry a second about their co-pays, mortgage payments and college costs for their kids.

[Zorro]

The counter argument is "hey, they were in the UAW and helped create this mess"


I love how they're trying to blame this mess on guys who just tried to make a decent living.

[torker]

No. Let them merge like Hot Wheels and Corgi did.

[epo]

Remember that $70/per hour compensation for Big Three front-line employees. That's a lie:

The New Republic: Assembly Line (http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=1026e955-541c-4aa6-bcf2-56dfc3323682)

If you've been following the auto industry's crisis, then you've probably read or heard a lot about overpaid American autoworkers--in particular, the fact that the average hourly employee of the Big Three makes $70 per hour.

Well, here's one reason: The figure is wildly misleading.

Let's start with the fact that it's not $70 per hour in wages. According to Kristin Dziczek of the Center for Automative Research--who was my primary source for the figures you are about to read--average wages for workers at Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors were just $28 per hour as of 2007. That works out to a little less than $60,000 a year in gross income--hardly outrageous, particularly when you consider the physical demands of automobile assembly work and the skills most workers must acquire over the course of their careers.

Essentially the article figures out that the Big Three pay their employees $28/per hour, Toyota (the shining example in the right wing screamers argument) pays $25/per hour. So that's not the problem....but how do they get to the $70/per hour figure:

The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees--in other words, the cost of benefits for other people.

But doesn't Toyota have retirees too?

As of a year ago, Toyota's entire U.S. operation had less than 1,000 retirees. Compare that to a company like General Motors, which has been around for more than a century and which supports literally hundreds of thousands of former workers and spouses.

Its an interesting read from the financial perspective as Toyota will eventually have the same "problem" as the Big Three automakers when their staff starts to retire. Maybe if the automakers would build quality, innovative vehicles that meet the needs of the population, then maybe.....just maybe we might be more willing to buy something from Detroit.

And honestly, we can all stop whining about the union, they aren't the problem.

[Jughead]

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/28/american-automakers-top-jd-power-s-website-rankings/

[epo]

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/28/american-automakers-top-jd-power-s-website-rankings/

Here is a question for ya Jug. According to that article Hummer is the top-ranked division:

GM's HUMMER division retained its place at the top, just two points ahead of Lincoln.

Is GM really going to remain viable by spending energy making Hummers rather than something to beat the Prius?

[Jughead]

Here is a question for ya Jug. According to that article Hummer is the top-ranked division:



Is GM really going to remain viable by spending energy making Hummers rather than something to beat the Prius?

Select a model to research Chevrolet cars with 30-39 miles per gallon. 2009 Chevrolet Cobalt 2008 Chevrolet Aveo5 2009 Chevrolet Aveo 2008 Chevrolet Malibu 2009 Chevrolet Aveo5 2008 Chevrolet Cobalt 2009 Chevrolet Malibu 2008 Chevrolet HHR 2008 Chevrolet Aveo

[Jughead]

[URL="Corporate Average Fuel Economy Corporate Average Fuel Economy.................................... Considering this and we have Suburban Tahoe and Full size trucks I think they do a good Job with MPG..Hi Epo..Im no good at debating ....Well not with a keyboard....They do make fuel efficient cars...Have you heard about the VOLT???....2010 If we make it that far....

[epo]

Considering this and we have Suburban Tahoe and Full size trucks I think they do a good Job with MPG..Hi Epo..Im no good at debating ....Well not with a keyboard....They do make fuel efficient cars...Have you heard about the VOLT???....2010 If we make it that far....

My point was never to debate against the Big Three. And I definitely don't think the myth of the "union" is their problem. I've thought that the lack of innovation and the leadership of the automakers has created the issue.

Heck I'd rather get a Detroit product than a Camry, but they don't seem to have anything as attractive or efficient in this style. That's my problem with them...even if they do have something, they aren't pushing it.

And the VOLT looks great...and I'm happy that they are finally headed in that direction.

[Gvac]

Heck I'd rather get a Detroit product than a Camry, but they don't seem to have anything as attractive or efficient in this style. That's my problem with them...even if they do have something, they aren't pushing it.

That's a big part of the problem, epo. The Malibu has gotten rave reviews all around, and they even offer a hybrid version, but people are so turned off by American cars that winning their trust back might take years.

[albo60s]

Im all for letting the big 3 declare bankruptcy.
Void all union contracts.
A guy bolting a fender on a car deserves no more than $15 an hour.
Void out the pension funds too.
The government screwed millions of retirees by allowing interest rates to fall to 1%. whats a few million more destroyed lives?
I have little sympathy these days since my retirement account lost nearly 50%.
The car buying public pays for the carworkers excessive compensation through high prices on vehicles. Perhaps if a new Cobalt costs only $10,000 they will sell a few.
I'm not a guy who doesn't support domestic car companies either. I have purchased 5 Chevy Cavaliers in the past. The quality of these cars is just fine, no issues there.
The big 3 need lower costs, more productivity, a more flexible & motivated work force & cheaper prices to recapture the car market!

[epo]

Void out the pension funds too.


So you want that depression?

[albo60s]

So you want that depression?


No I don't want a depression.
I can't see spending money on a failed business model though.
If we're going to save companies lets do it the right way.
A company declaring bankruptcy doesn't mean it stops functioning.
Harnesfiger/Joy Global here in Milwaukee is a good example.
I would expect, when all is said & done, a new big 3 with production costs well below the imports.

[JimBeam]

One of he things I heard, that caught my attention and made me think, was that we are asking tax payers that may have lost much of their retirement and 401K to now help in a bailout to protect the auto industry's retirement packages ?

Doesn't seem to make sense if you view it at that simplistic level.

[KnoxHarrington]

I commend to you this article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081123/ap_on_go_co/auto_bailout_shades_of_chrysler;_ylt=AobJgSFsFsPyX ELvlqoUBZuyFz4D) comparing and contrasting how Iacocca sold the Chrysler bailout in 1979 to how the CEO's of the auto industry are selling it now.

To summarize: Iacocca committed to a whole series of reforms for Chrysler. He worked with the union to get concessions and work things out. He didn't show up in his private jet and say "I dunno what happened, it's not my fault, gimme $25 billion."

[scottinnj]

Another interesting thing about Lee from the article:

Iacocca agreed to work for a $1 a year until Chrysler turned a profit. He traveled between Detroit and Washington on commercial airlines.

[Gvac]

If I was one of the guys begging for a bailout I would've driven to Washington in one of my vehicles, most likely a hybrid.

Just sayin'.

[scottinnj]

Is GM really going to remain viable by spending energy making Hummers rather than something to beat the Prius?

I've seen that too. Hummer may be their money maker, but that is only because the Hummer line is very, very expensive and GM can make more from difference between cost of production vs. profit.

But the reality is that America hates the Hummer. It is the model used most often to ridicule the SUV market. I feel (and this is just my opinion) GM won't be taken seriously by the American market as being serious about fuel efficiency standards until it drops the Hummer.

And really, you call it a Hummer?

I wish someone made a shirt that says:

"I bought a Hummer and all it sucks is gas"

[scottinnj]

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[GreatAmericanZero]

i had this thought and i want someone more politically wise than me to tell me how im wrong

so the US bails out the auto industry

how about giving all US citizens who drive an American built car a discount (or waive) the court fees when we get a traffic ticket?

we pay for the auto bailout...we pay for the courts...c'mon! help us out!

[Puggle_kicker]

Last time I failed I had to move back into my parents house and work at a fucking gas station for a year. Nobody bailed me out. Let them fail.

[scottinnj]

I have heard a lot about how many jobs would be affected if Detroit fails. I have concluded that there are many types of industry within the American economy that, if allowed to fail, would cost a lot of jobs.

Healthcare Industry

Airline Industry

Energy Industry

and so on, and so forth.

So again, I ask, if we bailout Detroit, how will that cause Americans to buy their cars? And if another industry goes down, do we, and how much if we do, bail them out?

[MacVittie]

The American auto makers have been making the wrong kind of cars for the past 30 years. The only automobiles that we make well are pickup trucks, and they're terrible on gas mileage. While Toyota and Honda have been on the cutting edge of hybrid technology, we haven't done dick. I think we do need a bailout, because the ripple effect of the auto industry failing would be massive. The auto manufacturers need new leadership: new CEOs and new Boards. There needs to be some of of plan where the industry get he bailout and the people running the industry get fired. I'm not sure how that would work logically, but these people have been running their businesses horribly. The American worker deserves to have these companies saved; the people running the companies do not.

[Foster]

The American auto makers have been making the wrong kind of cars for the past 30 years. The only automobiles that we make well are pickup trucks, and they're terrible on gas mileage. While Toyota and Honda have been on the cutting edge of hybrid technology, we haven't done dick. I think we do need a bailout, because the ripple effect of the auto industry failing would be massive. The auto manufacturers need new leadership: new CEOs and new Boards. There needs to be some of of plan where the industry get he bailout and the people running the industry get fired. I'm not sure how that would work logically, but these people have been running their businesses horribly. The American worker deserves to have these companies saved; the people running the companies do not.

They've been making those types of vehicles because thats what Americans were buying.
It wasn't until the gas prices went nuts that the smaller cars became popular.

[Zorro]

i had this thought and i want someone more politically wise than me to tell me how im wrong

so the US bails out the auto industry

how about giving all US citizens who drive an American built car a discount (or waive) the court fees when we get a traffic ticket?

we pay for the auto bailout...we pay for the courts...c'mon! help us out!

Barbara Mikulski of Maryland has proprosed a signifigant tax rebate/credit/discount for people that buy American cars. But a huge part of the problem
"Just what is an American car?" Bama Hyundais, Indy Hondas, Mexican Fords...???

[scottinnj]

Well, if we do bailout Detroit, then I want all new leadership. I don't care if your last name is Ford, if you suck, let someone else run Ford. That's why I'm not for a bailout. I'm afraid it will be more of the same.

Take Chevy. They have done some terrible marketing over the last 5-8 years, and seem to be resting all their hopes on the 2010 Volt, which will be way overpriced to be as successful as the Prius.

I'm guessing that the CEOs who flew to D.C. are merely banking on loan guarantees to stay afloat until we come out of the current crisis, then hope Americans come back and keep buying the same old product.

[scottinnj]

Barbara Mikulski of Maryland has proprosed a signifigant tax rebate/credit/discount for people that buy American cars. But a huge part of the problem
"Just what is an American car?" Bama Hyundais, Indy Hondas, Mexican Fords...???

Welcome to the global economy. We've been getting that shoved down our throats for years and years when corporations move jobs/manufacturing overseas. Now they want us to bail them out, even though a lot of the manufacturing is in Canada and Mexico. How's that NAFTA working out?

[Puggle_kicker]

Failure to prepare is preparing to fail.

Corny, yes. Applicable, definitely. These bastards refused technology. The refused to change. They refused to innovate for the future. They prepared themselves to fall. How can we reward them to fall? If jobs go, jobs go. Too bad, so sad. Thats not as bad as setting up a begging line for all these big corporations.

Instead of riding out the tough times, now we are setting the precedent that the American consumer, their customer, can bail them out anytime things get rough. And what do we, the consumer, get for the hassle? Do our prices go down? Do we get anything for it? We get nothing. The poor get poorer while making sure that the rich stay rich.

Fuck this shit. Im about reading to get out my Musket shooter and march on Washington.

[GreatAmericanZero]

Well, if we do bailout Detroit, then I want all new leadership. I don't care if your last name is Ford, if you suck, let someone else run Ford. That's why I'm not for a bailout. I'm afraid it will be more of the same.

.

thats the big problem, the corporate legacy. All these people with Old Money that get generations to run their companies...we need FRESH MINDS for a 2008 market. We need to "Trading Places" all these motherfucker, kick Dan Akroyd out..lets get Eddie Murphy in.

[Tenbatsuzen]

thats the big problem, the corporate legacy. All these people with Old Money that get generations to run their companies...we need FRESH MINDS for a 2008 market. We need to "Trading Places" all these motherfucker, kick Dan Akroyd out..lets get Eddie Murphy in.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r23/Eyby20/merrynuyear1.jpg

[MacVittie]

They've been making those types of vehicles because thats what Americans were buying.
It wasn't until the gas prices went nuts that the smaller cars became popular.

Smaller cars became popular back in the late 1970's and 80's when there was rationing and gas lines. The big 3 auto makers learned nothing from this, and continued to build bigger cars. Yes, they were supplying the market with cars that the consumers demanded, yet they had no foresight as to what could alter that demand and what to do in that scenario.

[cougarjake13]

let em fail

[epo]

So here is a question:

GM asked for a loan of $18 billion dollars. The total value of the common stock is approximately $3 billion dollars in our current market. Why not buy GM, restructure it as a government entity and then sell it off in a couple of years once its cleaned up all at a profit for the American public/government?

Its been done before in American history...why not do it again?

[Fez4PrezN2008]

So here is a question:

GM asked for a loan of $18 billion dollars. The total value of the common stock is approximately $3 billion dollars in our current market. Why not buy GM, restructure it as a government entity and then sell it off in a couple of years once its cleaned up all at a profit for the American public/government?

Its been done before in American history...why not do it again?
What's to stop China from buying all 3 up and bunch of other companies too?

No tickie, no laundry

[conman823]

So here is a question:

GM asked for a loan of $18 billion dollars. The total value of the common stock is approximately $3 billion dollars in our current market. Why not buy GM, restructure it as a government entity and then sell it off in a couple of years once its cleaned up all at a profit for the American public/government?

Its been done before in American history...why not do it again?

What do you do then with the Unions for those years?

The media has downplayed the Unions role in this whole situation because to speak bad of Unions means your Anti-American or some shit.

Heres a goods article that talks about the real issues: Unions and Executive Perks.
http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20081203145625.aspx

Myers explained that two years ago 15,000 workers from Chrysler, Ford and General Motors were being paid although they were not working. Even now, she added, “GM has agreed to spend as much as $2.2 billion on this over four years.”


Yeah like my tax dollars aren't abused enough without paying for these hard working souls to SIT HOME.

Also: Tax Payer $$---->Auto Industry Big Wigs---> UAW Workers---> UAW Union Dues= Unions benefit 100%, from our money.

[epo]

What do you do then with the Unions for those years?

The media has downplayed the Unions role in this whole situation because to speak bad of Unions means your Anti-American or some shit.

Heres a goods article that talks about the real issues: Unions and Executive Perks.
http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20081203145625.aspx



Yeah like my tax dollars aren't abused enough without paying for these hard working souls to SIT HOME.

Also: Tax Payer $$---->Auto Industry Big Wigs---> UAW Workers---> UAW Union Dues= Unions benefit 100%, from our money.

Please refer to this post in this very thread for my thoughts (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1969114&postcount=87) on "union-blame" in this situation.

To summarize, they aren't the root problem.

[Syd]

The domestics all failed because they were caught up in the SUV craze. Driven by quarterly profits, they had no reason to innovate -- the people in charge during the 90s could have bailed easily before the company was set to fail. Since the companies were all meeting their earnings, investors had no reason to ask for them to think towards the future.

For all the people screaming innovation this, good cars that -- apart from the disastrous early 80s, most of the domestics had good products coming off the line in the late 80s. Most notably the Taurus, which redefined a car segment. However, just a few years later SUVs become popular and they had incredibly high profit margins. Much of the advancement Detroit had made in the bread and butter compact and midsize car segments was lost to body-on-frame, low tech trucks.

Nowadays, all companies except Chrysler have sterling products out that are far superior to their import equivalents. Toyota's vaunted quality is waning as they struggle to produce cars, Honda has made major design mistakes in an effort to simplify production and other companies are cutting corners in order to cannibalize car sales in the vacuum caused by Detroit failing. The problem here is that Detroit has had to spend loads of money to get back to equal footing -- now that GM has burned through cash to create the Malibu, it has no money left to re-design the Cobalt. Ford has no money to bring the Mondeo to America nor the European Focus to America. Meanwhile, the near carbon-copy of the euro Focus -- the Mazda 3 -- is selling extremely strong despite a limited sales network. Chrysler is still lagging, but the only reason Cerberus bought them was because of Jeep.

[Zorro]

The domestics all failed because they were caught up in the SUV craze. Driven by quarterly profits, they had no reason to innovate -- the people in charge during the 90s could have bailed easily before the company was set to fail. Since the companies were all meeting their earnings, investors had no reason to ask for them to think towards the future.

For all the people screaming innovation this, good cars that -- apart from the disastrous early 80s, most of the domestics had good products coming off the line in the late 80s. Most notably the Taurus, which redefined a car segment. However, just a few years later SUVs become popular and they had incredibly high profit margins. Much of the advancement Detroit had made in the bread and butter compact and midsize car segments was lost to body-on-frame, low tech trucks.

Nowadays, all companies except Chrysler have sterling products out that are far superior to their import equivalents. Toyota's vaunted quality is waning as they struggle to produce cars, Honda has made major design mistakes in an effort to simplify production and other companies are cutting corners in order to cannibalize car sales in the vacuum caused by Detroit failing. The problem here is that Detroit has had to spend loads of money to get back to equal footing -- now that GM has burned through cash to create the Malibu, it has no money left to re-design the Cobalt. Ford has no money to bring the Mondeo to America nor the European Focus to America. Meanwhile, the near carbon-copy of the euro Focus -- the Mazda 3 -- is selling extremely strong despite a limited sales network. Chrysler is still lagging, but the only reason Cerberus bought them was because of Jeep.

No they failed because real or perceived there cars SUCK !!!

Just look at the resale value of a used CR-V versus a Ford Escape.

[Drew85]

No Their 1991 ford Taurus sucked, had plenty of issues.


The domestics all failed because they were caught up in the SUV craze. Driven by quarterly profits, they had no reason to innovate -- the people in charge during the 90s could have bailed easily before the company was set to fail. Since the companies were all meeting their earnings, investors had no reason to ask for them to think towards the future.

For all the people screaming innovation this, good cars that -- apart from the disastrous early 80s, most of the domestics had good products coming off the line in the late 80s. Most notably the Taurus, which redefined a car segment. However, just a few years later SUVs become popular and they had incredibly high profit margins. Much of the advancement Detroit had made in the bread and butter compact and midsize car segments was lost to body-on-frame, low tech trucks.

Nowadays, all companies except Chrysler have sterling products out that are far superior to their import equivalents. Toyota's vaunted quality is waning as they struggle to produce cars, Honda has made major design mistakes in an effort to simplify production and other companies are cutting corners in order to cannibalize car sales in the vacuum caused by Detroit failing. The problem here is that Detroit has had to spend loads of money to get back to equal footing -- now that GM has burned through cash to create the Malibu, it has no money left to re-design the Cobalt. Ford has no money to bring the Mondeo to America nor the European Focus to America. Meanwhile, the near carbon-copy of the euro Focus -- the Mazda 3 -- is selling extremely strong despite a limited sales network. Chrysler is still lagging, but the only reason Cerberus bought them was because of Jeep.

[Syd]

No they failed because real or perceived there cars SUCK !!!

Just look at the resale value of a used CR-V versus a Ford Escape.

one of these cars is used for fleets and has a high supply compared to demand

hmm, no, its for some really subjective reason

[Syd]

No Their 1991 ford Taurus sucked, had plenty of issues.

You mean the 96? The first gen (85-91) outsold every other car, was revolutionary in every way and still is a study in most automative design courses. It was pretty dated by around 1993-94 when Ford was funneling profit and factory lines towards Explorers though.

[Drew85]

No it was the 1991 Ford Taurus wagon and others we know had plenty of issues, besides Transmission problems, just not a good reliable car. Sure it might of sold a lot, but after it got older (3yrs) just a piece of shit.

For gm, they are going to make a New car to replace the cobalt, called the cruze in 2010.

You mean the 96? The first gen (85-91) outsold every other car, was revolutionary in every way and still is a study in most automative design courses. It was pretty dated by around 1993-94 when Ford was funneling profit and factory lines towards Explorers though.

[Syd]

No it was the 1991 Ford Taurus wagon and others we know had plenty of issues, besides Transmission problems, just not a good reliable car. Sure it might of sold a lot, but after it got older (3yrs) just a piece of shit.

For gm, they are going to make a New car to replace the cobalt, called the cruze in 2010.

Single issue. The whole entirety of the first gen Taurus were reliable -- yours was the exception, not the rule.

Also, the Cruze is replacing the Cobalt but not until 2012 since GM isn't going to have the money to really build Delta IIs in America/import them in reasonable numbers in America until then. Furthermore, the Cobalt was due for a real replacement in 2006. It was outclassed the second it hit the ground.

[Drew85]

edit.

[Syd]

Again, it's the exception. Recalls on a car that has been in production for nearly a decade are due to a batch of out-of-tolerance components.

I guess all Hondas are terrible because their 5 speed FWD automatics had a failure rate of like 1 in 5 after 50k miles from fluid starvation? Honda cleaned it up, extended warranties for unrepaired autos and it's not really an issue now.

Same thing goes for Toyota and it's under-oiled engines that would sludge up from too long maintenance intervals. Or the headgaskets on the mid 90s V6s.

Or VW, with its coilpacks.

Or BMW, with its rear subframe issues.

Or Mitsubishi, with its crankwalk issues (cheap shot)

Name a manufacturer and there's a huge glaring fucked up issue associated with it. Everyone has their reliability issues.

[Drew85]

Fair enough

[Zorro]

Again, it's the exception. Recalls on a car that has been in production for nearly a decade are due to a batch of out-of-tolerance components.

I guess all Hondas are terrible because their 5 speed FWD automatics had a failure rate of like 1 in 5 after 50k miles from fluid starvation? Honda cleaned it up, extended warranties for unrepaired autos and it's not really an issue now.

Same thing goes for Toyota and it's under-oiled engines that would sludge up from too long maintenance intervals. Or the headgaskets on the mid 90s V6s.

Or VW, with its coilpacks.

Or BMW, with its rear subframe issues.

Or Mitsubishi, with its crankwalk issues (cheap shot)

Name a manufacturer and there's a huge glaring fucked up issue associated with it. Everyone has their reliability issues.


The problem with your analysis is that perception is reality. The reality is that most people perceive that Detroit makes shitty cars.

[scottinnj]

No Their 1991 ford Taurus sucked, had plenty of issues.

QFT


I had a 1993 Taurus.

Head Gasket

Transmission

Fuel Pump


My mechanic told me those three things were known problems with Ford. I got hit with all three failures, all before 100,000 miles.

The transmission cost me 3500 dollars to rebuild.
The fuel pump cost me a weekend of freetime-I did the replacement myself, and it was a PAIN IN THE ASS!
The head gasket cost me a grand on the trade-in. I had a price of 3000 dollars trade-in value for the Taurus from my dealer, and on the way to bring it in when I picked up my Monte Carlo, the head gasket failed. The dealer took off 1000 dollars from our handshake deal when he saw it roll in leaking engine juice. At that point I didn't care anymore and just took the deal he wrote up for me. Way to go, Ford!

And you can't blame that on the "lazy" UAW workers. That was all pre-engineered. The
V6 Ford put in their sedans wasn't able to cool properly in such a small space, and resulted in overheating of the engine, and that took out a lot of transmissions too.

A similar problem GM had was with the Fiero back in the 80s. The engine was in the rear, but the radiator was up front. It couldn't cool the engine properly and a lot of Fieros broke down. Pontiac fixed the problem after the Fiero was on the market for 2 years, but the word had spread that it was a bad design and unreliable, and between that and the insurance rates for it, spelled the death of the Fiero.

But lately Ford, Chrysler and GM have been on the ball with drivetrains and car design. I hope whatever happens, they survive and keep giving us good cars.

I'm just not comfortable with the loan packages while the Big Three seem to want to keep the same leadership that brought them to this point. I'd be much more comfortable if they could produce another business leader vis a vie Lee Iaccoca.

[conman823]

Please refer to this post in this very thread for my thoughts (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1969114&postcount=87) on "union-blame" in this situation.

To summarize, they aren't the root problem.

They may not be the root problem, but it is still a major financial issue. I also highlighted the money being spent on Executive Perks. As with most complex situations there are many underlying issues that create the root cause.

I agree that quality can be improved. Also its apparent that if US makers had put more time and effort into fuel effective cars, lets say 10 years ago, they might be able to tread water during this current "crisis".

Either way they should be left to fail, and from the ashes hopefully some companies with new management and fresh modern outlooks rise. The workers shouldn't suffer though, but such is life. Government Bailouts cannot be the answer to everything if this economy is ever to recover.

[conman823]

But lately Ford, Chrysler and GM have been on the ball with drivetrains and car design. I hope whatever happens, they survive and keep giving us good cars.

My last 2 cars were a 04 Trailblazer and currently an 08 Mailbu.

Trailblazer was awsome and had no problems worth remembering. I got rid of it because I decided I didn't want to fill up 2x a week to the tune of $70, but I loved that truck.

The 08 Mailbu is great, I didn't want to like it at first because I had to trade in my SUV which I loved, but I have really come to love this car in some ways more. If GM was putting out this quality 15-20 years ago I believe things would have been different.

[Gvac]

I agree that the U.S. manufacturers have increased their quality greatly over the past few years, particularly Ford, but they've got an uphill battle when it comes to convincing the public of this.

And although the UAW might not be the cause of the current crisis in Detroit, they've got to be a bit more reasonable when it comes to their renegotiation. The refusal to pay anything toward their health benefits and pensions while insisting on extremely high salaries is what led the Big 3 to start building vehicles in Mexico and Canada in the first place.

[epo]

They may not be the root problem, but it is still a major financial issue. I also highlighted the money being spent on Executive Perks. As with most complex situations there are many underlying issues that create the root cause.


Lets face a couple of facts:

The Union. The difference in pay between Detroit unionized workers and Toyota/America workers is $3/hour average in compensation. This isn't a real issue.

The Lifespan of the Organization. A major issue is this: Detroit has been alive longer than the other organizations. Because the Big 3 have been alive this long they have accrued a large number of living pension retirees. Toyota/America only has 1000 retirees. This is only because of lifespan of the organization. If the other organizations had been in the market the same amount of time, they would have the same damn problem.

Executive Pay. Let's face it...executives do make to much. It isn't what makes or breaks the organizations, but it definitely sets a horrible example and the wrong message.

Business Model. This is the one thing that the Big 3 realistically can fix. They have obviously been in bed with the oil companies and behind the times with the public. As the public has been moving towards fuel efficiency, they continued to worry about SUVs. Instead of lobbying Washington to require environmental standards from foreign vehicles that match America, they lobbied to lower fuel standards on models that the government purchased.

Until they change the root cause, their business culture they are royally fucked.

[conman823]

Until they change the root cause, their business culture they are royally fucked.

Agreed

[scottinnj]

I agree that the U.S. manufacturers have increased their quality greatly over the past few years, particularly Ford, but they've got an uphill battle when it comes to convincing the public of this.

Especially in the media. Most auto magazines are dead set against giving a fair review to Detroit models verses their "import" competition. It's more then annoying to see the elitist views in Car and Driver and Motor Trend as they can't wait to tell you about how great the new Camry is, but that the Malibu is decent enough for those of us who still cling to American makes, but sell ourselves short because we have missed out on all the auto eutopia Japan and Europe have been sending to America. If we'd just give up on Detroit, the ham 'n' eggers who have been buying Dodge, Chevy and Ford would rejoice in the magic that is the Toyota, Honda and Volkswagon.

The only magazine I trust for fair comparisons is Consumer Digest. At least there you'll see pricing for typical repairs and cost of ownership between the models, and if you wind up buying an import over a domestic based solely on those kinds of numbers, at least you did your homework and made up your mind for yourself, instead of reading the latest editorial from Autoweek on how Detriot "still has a long way to go to catch up with Japan on quality" and just blow off more then 50% percent of the possible choices they might be able to consider.

[hunnerbun]

Found this on another board i frequent...

http://www.kevrimney.com/pictures/ay6ra1.jpg

[foodcourtdruide]

Listening to the conservatives in my office talk about this is incredibly frustrating. They pin it 100% on the unions because that is the party line. It's funny how I didn't hear them talk about worker income when the government bailed out AIG, but it is an issue when we're bailing out the auto industry.... hmm... I wonder why that is?

[Zorro]

Listening to the conservatives in my office talk about this is incredibly frustrating. They pin it 100% on the unions because that is the party line. It's funny how I didn't hear them talk about worker income when the government bailed out AIG, but it is an issue when we're bailing out the auto industry.... hmm... I wonder why that is?

Did you completely miss the complaints about executive compensation, the Spa in California etc...geez that shit went on day after day.

Not that your conservative friends are right, but compensation has been a big issue for everyone through this bailout bull.

[scottinnj]

Bailout/Bridge loan or whatever you want to call it is now DOA. At least with this congress.

Story Here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218/)

[HBox]

The more this goes on the less I want a bailout. Both management and the union now have shown such an unwillingness to change that it will probably do more damage to prop them up longer. I just hope when they go under its less catastrophic than I believe it will be.

[Doogie]

Wow, what a bunch of assholes. The union proved most people's fears about unions correct. In their defense I understand what they are trying to protect. But goddamn, cmon. You need to compromise a little bit in order to get what they needed. Now we have to see what the hell is going to happen now. Shame.

[foodcourtdruide]

Sorry, I just can't do politics anymore.

[Syd]

Wow, what a bunch of assholes. The union proved most people's fears about unions correct. In their defense I understand what they are trying to protect. But goddamn, cmon. You need to compromise a little bit in order to get what they needed. Now we have to see what the hell is going to happen now. Shame.

The problem is Republicans in the Senate just want to see unions or workers in general to go down in flames. The hourly wage difference is just bs, it's negligible between new workers and still comparable (~$5/hr difference between experienced workers)

Fortunately Bush is going to ride to the rescue and give them money out of the bailout fund. Homeskillet does one good thing at least before he begins his pardons :thumbup:

Also, why fear unions? They keep companies from lording over its workers like some sort of modern serfdom.

[epo]

The problem is Republicans in the Senate just want to see unions or workers in general to go down in flames. The hourly wage difference is just bs, it's negligible between new workers and still comparable (~$5/hr difference between experienced workers)

Fortunately Bush is going to ride to the rescue and give them money out of the bailout fund. Homeskillet does one good thing at least before he begins his pardons :thumbup:

Also, why fear unions? They keep companies from lording over its workers like some sort of modern serfdom.

Blaming the unions is an easy wedge for the Republicans in the Senate. Quite frankly its lazy and disgusting. The wage differential between Big Three laborers and Toyota/America laborers has been documented at $3 per hour. This is NOT the problem and they know it.

[MisterSmith]

What I don't understand is why the Auto Bailout is so much worse than bailing out the Financial institutions. We are dealing with mismanagement and abuse in both industries, but the banks get a $700 billion bailout without having to meet the same kind of stringent criteria that the auto makers have to face. And it was essentially "free money," not the loans that Detroit is asking for.

I whole-heartedly believe that the Big 3 have to fix major issues and retool, but it is also asinine to bend them over and damage the economy further when it can be avoided. If the economy were in a different state I would probably say F-'em, but I think letting them fail right now is going to compound the current economic trouble.

[foodcourtdruide]

What I don't understand is why the Auto Bailout is so much worse than bailing out the Financial institutions. We are dealing with mismanagement and abuse in both industries, but the banks get a $700 billion bailout without having to meet the same kind of stringent criteria that the auto makers have to face. And it was essentially "free money," not the loans that Detroit is asking for.

I whole-heartedly believe that the Big 3 have to fix major issues and retool, but it is also asinine to bend them over and damage the economy further when it can be avoided. If the economy were in a different state I would probably say F-'em, but I think letting them fail right now is going to compound the current economic trouble.

Ok, this is not a political statement, but simply a theory.

I think it's because the idea is that the collapse of the financial institutions would destroy this country's economy and the collapse of the big 3 auto companies will hurt, but we'd ultimately get over it.

[MisterSmith]

Ok, this is not a political statement, but simply a theory.

I think it's because the idea is that the collapse of the financial institutions would destroy this country's economy and the collapse of the big 3 auto companies will hurt, but we'd ultimately get over it.

For the most part I agree. However I see this as more of an issue of political posturing.

The auto companies were willing to make changes, comply with government oversight and restructuring mandates, and dramatically cut the amount of money they were asking for. And from the get-go they were asking for loans rather than grants. The Senate Republicans wanted to flex their muscles, blamed the Unions, and took the ball and went home like a bunch of spoiled kids.

[Syd]

The most amusing thing is this is pure political gamesmanship on the part of senators in TN, MS, LA and a handful of other states that have Nissan/Toyota/Honda factories. They've been out of their good graces for awhile and think that this will somehow help them. It's quite to the contrary -- GM/Ford/Mopar failing hurts the entire auto industry. Everyone is incestuously linked at the supplier level, be it in actual components or down to raw materials. It destroys everyone and causes less cars to be sold.

Meanwhile, Renault, Toyota and Honda are all begging for UHC to cut future legacy costs for American factories and they're completely ignored and jobs are just moving up to Canada or down to Mexico instead. McConnell and other economic luddites think they can still woo them with low tax rates.

At the least, this bailout turns into a really, really, really cheap form of unemployment for a lot of people. Something to think about.

[Zorro]

Blaming the unions is an easy wedge for the Republicans in the Senate. Quite frankly its lazy and disgusting. The wage differential between Big Three laborers and Toyota/America laborers has been documented at $3 per hour. This is NOT the problem and they know it.

Not a real number as it doesn't include a ton of leagcy and benefit costs.

[Syd]

Not a real number as it doesn't include a ton of leagcy and benefit costs.

Most of the benefit costs are imaginary. They're equivalent to you assuming your salary is increased by payments to people on social security. The $70/hr thing more or less comes from total costs for workers, retired and active, divided by number of active workers. It's just bs propaganda spewed forth by the meth belt Republicans.

[epo]

Not a real number as it doesn't include a ton of leagcy and benefit costs.

We've been over this before. That number with the legacy costs that every conservative seems to quote is only valid because Toyota America only has approximately 1,000 retirees. If they were alive as an entity as long as the Big Three, they would have the EXACT same retiree issue.

This is not a realistic issue.

[foodcourtdruide]

We've been over this before. That number with the legacy costs that every conservative seems to quote is only valid because Toyota America only has approximately 1,000 retirees. If they were alive as an entity as long as the Big Three, they would have the EXACT same retiree issue.

This is not a realistic issue.

This is why I can't do this anymore epo. I can't do political conversations. No one gives a shit about the truth.

EDIT: To expound. I read something about Clinton running his Presidency like it was the perpetual campaign. Bush seemed to run his Presidency in the same way and the media eats this shit up. Reality is not important. It's all about what makes your specific political group look better. I'm so fucking tired of it.

[CountryBob]

I have not been keeping a tuned ear to all of this Bailout controversy but last night a study stated that if the Big 3 fail then that will put over 3,000,000 people out of jobs. Related directly and indirectly with the auto industry (parts, maintainence, haulage etc...) That is an interesting concept. 3,000,000 people that rely on the american auto industry for their livelyhood. WoW

Alot of people have been screaming at the Unions and also in the Unions defense:

Unions are a thing in the past. I come from a coal mining background and the union was a good thing many years ago. But, over the years - the government regulations and requirements have made the union obsolete now.
For example - the company i used to work for had 450 hourly employees at 1 mine which was non-union. The UMWA is pushing hard to get a vote from the employees to represent the workers. The monthly dues are over $70 per month. $31,500 per month and 378,000 per year from just that mine. You know what the employee really gets if they vote union?
An immediate $4 per hour reduction in wages, no 10% company match on their 401k, no bonuses (which are huge), no christmas parties etc. last year, that would cost each employee over 17,500 in wage related compensation - per year. that alone should have squashed the idea of a union but it didnt.they get the warm and fuzzy feeling that a bigger presence has their back and they have a voice against the company. What it breeds is sorry work ethics and big reduction in production. The amount of sick days an employees misses work actually increases 8X when represented. <-- based on the other represented mines the company has. And, the represented employee has the luxury of worring about strikes that keep them from earning a living (just because 1 worker wanted off for deer season) <-- true story many times.

Being in HR, I know of 1 worker from a represented mine that was caught smoking underground (The coal bed methane is what blows these thing up everynow and then). Which is the end all major "no-no" that puts the lives of all workers in that idiots hands. That employee ended up not loosing his job due to some small technicallity that his union steward found. Afterwords,This employee was heard saying " see boys, we can smoke any damn place we want - there aint shit they can do about it!" Imagine the feeling of some workers thinking that being underground with that ass would be there last time on earth if he lit up while around methane. The Union was there to protect this maniac!

Anyway, I cant believe i wrote this much - sorry for that if you read it all.

[epo]

Here is an interesting list I ran across as there are 18 Senators who voted for the $700B for the financial bailout, yet voted against the auto bridge loan of $14 billion.

Bob Bennett - Utah
Richard Burr - North Carolina
Saxy Chambliss - Georgia
Tom Coburn - Oklahoma
Norm Coleman - Minnesota
Bob Corker - Tennesse
John Ensign - Nevada
Chuck Grassley - Virginia
Judd Gregg - New Hampshire
Orrin Hatch - Utah
Kay Bailey Hutchinson - Texas
Johnny Isakson - Georgia
John Kyl - Arizona
Mel Martinez - Florida
John McCain - Arizona
Mitch McConnell - Kentucky
Lisa Murkowski - Arkansas
John Thune - South Dakota

Hypocrits each and every one of them.

[SP1!]

We've been over this before. That number with the legacy costs that every conservative seems to quote is only valid because Toyota America only has approximately 1,000 retirees. If they were alive as an entity as long as the Big Three, they would have the EXACT same retiree issue.

This is not a realistic issue.

Here is an interesting list I ran across as there are 18 Senators who voted for the $700B for the financial bailout, yet voted against the auto bridge loan of $14 billion.

Bob Bennett - Utah
Richard Burr - North Carolina
Saxy Chambliss - Georgia
Tom Coburn - Oklahoma
Norm Coleman - Minnesota
Bob Corker - Tennesse
John Ensign - Nevada
Chuck Grassley - Virginia
Judd Gregg - New Hampshire
Orrin Hatch - Utah
Kay Bailey Hutchinson - Texas
Johnny Isakson - Georgia
John Kyl - Arizona
Mel Martinez - Florida
John McCain - Arizona
Mitch McConnell - Kentucky
Lisa Murkowski - Arkansas
John Thune - South Dakota

Hypocrits each and every one of them.

Yet you dont feel like you are for backing the unions when none of them actually deserve what they are getting paid, they make far more than the $3/hour you spouted out of your ass. They blackmailed the automakers into their deals by systematically striking against each one in turn so the UAW had leverage.

They are useless and you cant honestly sit here and tell me that you think they deserve that pay for doing the mundane work they do all day with no real skills. Fuck I remember people always telling me to get my ass in school if I wanted to make good money, hell all I needed was a dirty union to force a company to pay me more than warranted wages and I would be set for life.

Bitch all you want but unions are some of the most racist people around, I was recruited to be in an electrical union when I was in high school by a family friend and his big pitch line was "It would be nice to have a few white young men to work with instead of useless dark ones".

Fuck unions, let them die.

Also that UAW fuck saying that if GM is allowed to go under all the other car makers will die is complete bullshit, if they die all it will effect is their cushy jobs and Ford has already stated that they will be fine till 2010 or 11.

[SatCam]

Yet you dont feel like you are for backing the unions when none of them actually deserve what they are getting paid, they make far more than the $3/hour you spouted out of your ass.

you probably should have stayed in school. reading comprehension is important

[Syd]

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/493062.html

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/11/18/the-return-of-the-70-per-hour-meme

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=1026e955-541c-4aa6-bcf2-56dfc3323682

etc
the wage thing is propaganda, nothing more

[HBox]

you probably should have stayed in school. reading comprehension is important

He has consistently proven he is a very ignorant person. No one should even bother.

[Gvac]

The frustrating thing is that the very real possibility of the UAW cutting off its nose to spite its face exists. I know from a negotiating point of view they can't make concessions right off the bat, but if they don't budge from their demands all of their jobs will be gone, as well as their pensions and benefits.

This is going to have to be mediated fairly to keep both GM and the UAW alive.

[scottinnj]

I'm very sad tonight. Whether or not I wanted this loan to go through, to me the bigger issue about the domestic carmakers is how politicized both sides got, compared to the cushy treatment the Wall Street douches received when they hit D.C.

The CEOs of GM, Ford and Chrysler were questioned about their jet planes standing before Congress-did the CEOs of AIG, Bank of America and Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac get asked questions like that?

The UAW got clobbered for their stubbornness and excessive pay scale-I have yet to see any member of Congress justify his/her salary for being a law and policy maker who helped craft the environment which was the catalyst for the housing market collapse, and also sitting in D.C. doing nothing while fuel prices skyrocketed this past two years.

Like I said, I'm still not sure whether or not I would go for this loan or not. But I certainly wanted some sort of solution that would guide our auto industry out of this mess, whether tax money was used or not.

After a month of listening to both sides scream at each other and at us, and then nothing getting done after all that wasted energy, I really am worried about workers in America. Because it seems to me the political leaders, the business leaders and the union leaders all want their piece of the action, and when they've all had their fill, the rank and file workers and managers will be the ones that suffer.

[Jughead]

I am 53 years old....The 95%(Maybe 96%) here that are younger ?????....You are about to witness an effect you did not see coming.....Ask your Father in 3 months if he has????Or for some your grandfather.....:help:

[scottinnj]

I am 53 years old....The 95%(Maybe 96%) here that are younger ?????....You are about to witness an effect you did not see coming.....Ask your Father in 3 months if he has????Or for some your grandfather.....:help:

I don't know, but I will say that we are stepping into the great unknown now. I don't remember a time in American history where an entire industry was allowed to fail on its own.

[Jughead]

But we loan money to a business that is suppose to be smart with money????????Banks!!!..I don't remember them having to come up with 15 billion in standards set by the government by 2009....

[Jughead]

I don't know, but I will say that we are stepping into the great unknown now. I don't remember a time in American history where an entire industry was allowed to fail on its own.

Its goes back to 1930 old used car lots.....You still here it today we are a bunch of crooks..There fathers told them so on and so on......... You even get the dumb fuck that says if I pay cash can i get it cheaper????It will not get me down I will still take great care of my friends and I say friends not customers because that is what they are to me... And a great deal will always be a state of mind and belly to belly selling....And from the heart service...

[scottinnj]

Qft

[SP1!]

you probably should have stayed in school. reading comprehension is important

He has consistently proven he is a very ignorant person. No one should even bother.

No, what is amazing is that the average worker at a UAW plant makes more than most IT workers or people with a fucking brain that went to school, these fucks did nothing to deserve that money and if it wasnt for the fucking unions would be working at mcdonalds for minimum wage. But since they are union and white they get great benefits and better than average wages, you are not fighting for the middle class at all these fucks are upper middle class at worst. Go ahead and believe this bullshit, its obvious that neither one of you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/493062.html

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/11/18/the-return-of-the-70-per-hour-meme

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=1026e955-541c-4aa6-bcf2-56dfc3323682

etc
the wage thing is propaganda, nothing more

Yeah imagine that, areas affected by the automakers dying to write articles defending the unions, who would have thunk?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/RpWmqj-cdnI/AAAAAAAAB2Q/9CNk1ukhWoo/s1600/wages.bmp
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/07/uaw-pricing-themselves-out-of-market.html

But hey the autoworkers only are about lower class, huh? Even if some of these guys arent included in that $100K+ figure they are not lower class, they are upper middle class at worst but most people are too stupid to realize that little fact.

Once again, fuck the unions

Sorry if I have an ounce of common sense, thats more than most people have in this thread.

[Jughead]

One more thing..Just remember you will here in the next 5 months.....Shit I did not know that was tied to the automobile industry...OR dang that car thing was real for Elma golly I thought she worked for a oil seal plant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!D epending on your AMERICAN demographic....Not your lineage......... :smile:

[SP1!]

One more thing..Just remember you will here in the next 5 months.....Shit I did not know that was tied to the automobile industry...OR dang that car thing was real for Elma golly I thought she worked for a oil seal plant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!D epending on your AMERICAN demographic....Not your lineage......... :smile:

No I wont say that at all

[conman823]

Blaming the unions is an easy wedge for the Republicans in the Senate. Quite frankly its lazy and disgusting. The wage differential between Big Three laborers and Toyota/America laborers has been documented at $3 per hour. This is NOT the problem and they know it.

[On Thursday, they demanded the United Auto Workers union agree to accept a lower pay and benefits package that would be in line with compensation earned by workers at U.S. factories producing cars for Japanese companies such as Honda, Toyota and Nissan. In an unprecedented series of negotiations, lawmakers met with representatives of industry and labor on the first floor of the Capitol in hopes of striking a deal — the effort that ultimately collapsed when the UAW balked at the terms demanded.



So instead of just being happy that the workers would still have a JOB, the Unions walked away without making ONE concession. Well played by the Union since liberals will now just had the employers money from TARP and they can still fill their pocket with "Dues" from the taxpayers money.

Again, to finance the "Dying 3" you finance the Unions. Follow the money.

At a news conference on Friday, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger accused GOP senators who blocked emergency loans of trying to “pierce the heart” of organized labor.

Thats right because anytime a union is asked to make a few changes to their practices its a tear jerking claim like "pierce the heart". Give me a break.

[conman823]

Here is an interesting list I ran across as there are 18 Senators who voted for the $700B for the financial bailout, yet voted against the auto bridge loan of $14 billion.


Hypocrits each and every one of them.

Why? Where does it stop? How much fucking money can you just give away? The government isn't here to save every poorly managed industry. Lets not forget that this is all TAX money. My money, your money, all our OUR MONEY.

If you were sitting in a booth with $100, and one guy comes up to you and says "Hey let me get $25 so I can get my kids dinner." You say "Her you go."

How many guys come to the window with a story until YOU SAY NO. Thats all these senators are doing.

Hypocrites hardly, they are finally showing some responsibility to the tax payer, not big business.

[SP1!]

Why? Where does it stop? How much fucking money can you just give away? The government isn't here to save every poorly managed industry. Lets not forget that this is all TAX money. My money, your money, all our OUR MONEY.

If you were sitting in a booth with $100, and one guy comes up to you and says "Hey let me get $25 so I can get my kids dinner." You say "Her you go."

How many guys come to the window with a story until YOU SAY NO. Thats all these senators are doing.

Hypocrites hardly, they are finally showing some responsibility to the tax payer, not big business.

They have no fucking clue as to how business works, if the automakers lose, then a few thousand people lose that have played a craps game with people who screwed the automakers, if that finance bill doesnt pass then more than just a few thousand people will lose their job or just wont get paid since companies run off credit now. You will be amazed at how stupid people are today, they actually think that their company has money in the bank to pay them, never realizing they are getting paid with credit.

The people are stupid, its been explained here quite well by the posts defending the unions as being for the common man, fucking idiots.

[scottinnj]

Its goes back to 1930 old used car lots.....You still here it today we are a bunch of crooks..There fathers told them so on and so on......... You even get the dumb fuck that says if I pay cash can i get it cheaper????It will not get me down I will still take great care of my friends and I say friends not customers because that is what they are to me... And a great deal will always be a state of mind and belly to belly selling....And from the heart service...

You are a car dealer? My car dealer is named Tim, and he works at Bennett Chevrolet (http://www.bennettchevy.com/), and he is the MAN!

I love my dealership, they are all great people who want to work with me, not scam me. We've bought 3 cars from them, and will continue to support them with our auto buying dollars as long as we live here in Northfield.

[HBox]

No, what is amazing is that the average worker at a UAW plant makes more than most IT workers or people with a fucking brain that went to school, these fucks did nothing to deserve that money and if it wasnt for the fucking unions would be working at mcdonalds for minimum wage. But since they are union and white they get great benefits and better than average wages, you are not fighting for the middle class at all these fucks are upper middle class at worst. Go ahead and believe this bullshit, its obvious that neither one of you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.



Yeah imagine that, areas affected by the automakers dying to write articles defending the unions, who would have thunk?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/RpWmqj-cdnI/AAAAAAAAB2Q/9CNk1ukhWoo/s1600/wages.bmp
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/07/uaw-pricing-themselves-out-of-market.html

But hey the autoworkers only are about lower class, huh? Even if some of these guys arent included in that $100K+ figure they are not lower class, they are upper middle class at worst but most people are too stupid to realize that little fact.

Once again, fuck the unions

Sorry if I have an ounce of common sense, thats more than most people have in this thread.

You are so stupid I find it astounding that you have figured out how to use a mouse and keyboard. Put please, keep on pulling things out of your ass. I am curious as to what will come out next. It amuses me.

[SP1!]

You are so stupid I find it astounding that you have figured out how to use a mouse and keyboard. Put please, keep on pulling things out of your ass. I am curious as to what will come out next. It amuses me.

Funny I have provided facts and even a colorful graph to back up my bullshit yet all you seem to do is try to insult people, its sad when you realize that everything you believed in is just bullshit isnt it?

[jonyrotn]

The American auto industry has acted as a government sanctioned crime family for the last 40 years..

Wether it be the "clear coating" and "undercarridge rust inhibitor" scam they ran or the current scam of manufacturing hugely expensive parts that have a designed life expectency of 7 years built right in (hence the standard 7 year factory warranty)...
These companies will jump at every single chance they can to extort and rob the American people..

From being in bed with the oil industry to pioneering the auto companies start-up of there own financing departments so they could inflate their prices by 30% to families who they KNOW can't afford their vehichles..
These companys have been blood thirsty, money hungry succubuses that have produced an inferior product for years..Not to mention the technology they've burried so they could make an extra buck or two..

When the people finally wised up and started buying imports in huge numbers these assholes sat in their golden palaces smelling each other's yam bags so self assured they could continue to shit in our mouths..
Well they gambled on us being stupid and lost..They need to cash the fuck out..

I think these companies should be allowed to fail..
Someone else will definitely step in and take their places, probably as a turn key bussiness..This bussiness model is no longer worth a shit anyway..It needs an ENTIRE overhaul..Let's just hope the new guys don't fuck the working class Americans as hard as their predisesors did..

[sailor]

who closes polls?

[jonyrotn]

Bitch all you want but unions are some of the most racist people around, I was recruited to be in an electrical union when I was in high school by a family friend and his big pitch line was "It would be nice to have a few white young men to work with instead of useless dark ones".

Fuck unions, let them die.Dude!!:unsure:
This statement says WAY more about your family and their racist friends then it does about unions..

[PapaBear]

who closes polls?
It's an option when the thread starter creates the poll.

[HBox]

Funny I have provided facts and even a colorful graph to back up my bullshit yet all you seem to do is try to insult people, its sad when you realize that everything you believed in is just bullshit isnt it?

No, I insult you because you never know what you are talking about. That you have such a dismissive attitude towards auto workers, like they are a bunch brainless automatons making way too much money doing a job anyone could do, is beyond me. Coming from anyone that's tough to swallow but coming from a massive moron such as yourself that's extremely rich.

The idea that one must go to college to make a decent life for oneself is stupid.

The idea that they don't deserve what they have because they didn't go to college is stupid.

The idea that they are stupid because they didn't go to college is stupid.

The idea that anyone could step into their positions and do their work is stupid.

The idea that they've done nothing to deserve their money is stupid.

You are stupid.

I don't know why you are so offended that a group of people have made a good living. This used to the American Dream, but somehow to entitled little assholes such as yourself it has become an insult. To steal a phrase from Norton it is sociopathic that you harbor such hatred for auto workers. It's the only way I can describe it. You obviously feel superior to them for some reason I can't comprehend. That someone who wrote the following:

They have no fucking clue as to how business works, if the automakers lose, then a few thousand people lose that have played a craps game with people who screwed the automakers, if that finance bill doesnt pass then more than just a few thousand people will lose their job or just wont get paid since companies run off credit now.

feels superior to ANYONE is unbelievable. Not only is there no coherent thought there, it's a grammar apocalypse. I'm sure someone working an assembly line can put together a complete sentence.

I'm sorry the fact that some lowly non-college graduates managed to go out into the workforce and still have a decent career offends you somehow. I'm sorry we don't have some permanent underclass working cheap under splendid and "educated" individuals such as yourself.

A college degree doesn't mean that you will or should make tons of money, nor does a lack of it mean you are destined for minimum wage. This idea is asinine. If you have a college degree it's example enough of how little it can mean.

Just go away. You are a hateful, ignorant little runt who adds nothing.

[johnniewalker]

I don't think it's hypocritical to vote for the financial sector bailout and not for this one. The obvious argument against the first bailout was where does it end. The answer we got was the financial sector because without it they would freeze credit. For congress to now vote for the automotive bailout is completely hypocritical because now the rationale for the original is significantly weakened. I guess we haven't seen original explanations be twisted for different purposes before.

[SP1!]

Dude!!:unsure:
This statement says WAY more about your family and their racist friends then it does about unions..
It was on the outskirts of acquaintances who only talked to me cause he heard I took electrial in vocational class to fill up electives, when I went to talk to people down there almost all of them uttered the same sentiments so I wouldnt isolate it to the one person I happened to know.

No, I insult you because you never know what you are talking about. That you have such a dismissive attitude towards auto workers, like they are a bunch brainless automatons making way too much money doing a job anyone could do, is beyond me. Coming from anyone that's tough to swallow but coming from a massive moron such as yourself that's extremely rich.
The reason why I and most people feel that way is because we have had extensive schooling and dont come near their benefits or pay, yet somehow they want us to feel this is an attack on the fucking middle class?

The idea that one must go to college to make a decent life for oneself is stupid.

The idea that they don't deserve what they have because they didn't go to college is stupid.Are you fucking serious? You really think that you shouldnt have to get a college, even a 2-year degree is stupid if you want to make a decent life? So you are saying that their wages should just keep going up so they can live in middle class homes when they are essentially pricing their goods out of most peoples price range?

The idea that they are stupid because they didn't go to college is stupid.

The idea that anyone could step into their positions and do their work is stupid.
I never said they were stupid cause they didnt go to college, but to expect a $100k salary without that degree is stupid, yet the unions say they deserve it for no fucking reason. And yes after one day a fucking monkey could be trained to do their job, have you ever been inside a plant churning out cars? Its fucking easy work, mundane and boring but easy.

The idea that they've done nothing to deserve their money is stupid.

You are stupid.Of course I would be stupid in your eyes you cant see the obvious bullshit that these people are feeding you, of course their wages arent killing the automakers but when you add in all the benefits for retirees that they still have to pay then its easy to see how they are killing them. Name one other company that continues to pay for its fucking retirees? When you are done you should be out the door with the company absolved of any financial responsibility but for some reason the unions blackmailed them into paying for people that no longer work for them.

I don't know why you are so offended that a group of people have made a good living. This used to the American Dream, but somehow to entitled little assholes such as yourself it has become an insult. To steal a phrase from Norton it is sociopathic that you harbor such hatred for auto workers. It's the only way I can describe it. You obviously feel superior to them for some reason I can't comprehend. That someone who wrote the following:[/size]



[QUOTE]feels superior to ANYONE is unbelievable. Not only is there no coherent thought there, it's a grammar apocalypse. I'm sure someone working an assembly line can put together a complete sentence.

I'm sorry the fact that some lowly non-college graduates managed to go out into the workforce and still have a decent career offends you somehow. I'm sorry we don't have some permanent underclass working cheap under splendid and "educated" individuals such as yourself.

A college degree doesn't mean that you will or should make tons of money, nor does a lack of it mean you are destined for minimum wage. This idea is asinine. If you have a college degree it's example enough of how little it can mean.

Just go away. You are a hateful, ignorant little runt who adds nothing.That was drunk typing but yeah poor sentence structure, congrats you busted me on that.

I never said underclass but what the fuck makes you think that these people deserve the money they get? Hell if you used to want extra money you could work over time for it, now they expect it from normal 40 hour weeks. And I know plenty of non college graduates making money by starting their own businesses the fact that people feel the middle class way of american life is somehow guaranteed to them is simply fucking ridiculous. A college degree doesnt solidify you a place in the upper class as well but its a nice start, keep attacking so-called elites and defending what you consider the little man when reality shows that most of those little men make more than college graduates. Fucking people and their entitlement bullshit, its fucking amazing that people think a factory worker deserves this much in pay. There is only so much a business can pay and remain profitable, if you dont like those wages fucking leave.

Now I would love to get in name calling match with you but for some reason if I call a poster an idiot, I get banned. I guess its ok to throw little jabs at the people who arent part of the clique though.

I don't think it's hypocritical to vote for the financial sector bailout and not for this one. The obvious argument against the first bailout was where does it end. The answer we got was the financial sector because without it they would freeze credit. For congress to now vote for the automotive bailout is completely hypocritical because now the rationale for the original is significantly weakened. I guess we haven't seen original explanations be twisted for different purposes before.
Well the biggest problem is the union contracts and the huge over head they are on the automakers, they refused to take a small pay cut, temporarily, and told them to go fuck themselves. They feel they can blackmail congress like they did the automakers but completely forget that since there are very few plants in US states that they feel no pressure from their home states to vote for it.

Dont get me wrong I didnt agree with the first bailout at all, but at least they learned from it and put restrictions and wage concessions in this one with all executives taking a hit but the unions feel they are above trying to save their companies. Amazing cause the unions first line in the old days was that they were going to make them partners with their companies, I guess that partnership ends when asked for help at saving the industry.

[Gvac]

Before we put all the blame in one place and start attacking one another, let's remember that GM CEO Rick Wagoner earned 6 million dollars more in 2007 than he did in 2006, even though GM reported a net loss of 39 billion that year. I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only white collar employee to receive a raise.

Arguing about past practices is futile, however. Something has to be done soon if we're going to have GM stay in the US. Canada has stepped up and given them a few billion because GM has many plants in Ontario.

[Jughead]

Im sorry if I got a little carried away last night...Was not really that popped..Just had gotten back from our Christmas party....The owner of the dealership who is a GREAT person and owner had given a great speech... I really felt bad for everyone there..It was very depressing..JUG..

[Antioch]

Here's the problem with bailing them out--and despite what they said at the hearings, and even though I probably agreed with Ford's CEO, they have to simply go the route of every other company and declare Chapter 11 and reorganize and pay of their debts, restructure. Yes, this would mean people would lose their jobs, but they're going to anyway, it's simply delaying the inevitable to float them some of OUR cash. I was annoyed enough with the 700 billion dollar bailout, as not one of us could afford to write a cheque out to cover that this year. What was it? 2300 a citizen? The Big 2 (and Chrysler hasn't been American in a while), have been what's stopped this magnificant country from really leading the way with the cars of the future. They put out slightly different models next year, and they take up all of the market and don't allow new companies to spring up as the market is already saturated with imports and domestics. Every now and then you see one of these smaller car companies like Tesla pop up and you think, "Wow, that looks great." The fact is they'll never succeed with the current binopoloy that exists. Ford and GM will just have to become small car companies and learn how to be great again.

[scottinnj]

Im sorry if I got a little carried away last night...Was not really that popped..Just had gotten back from our Christmas party....The owner of the dealership who is a GREAT person and owner had given a great speech... I really felt bad for everyone there..It was very depressing..JUG..

Please don't give up hope Jughead.

I'm a Chevy dude, a NASCAR dude and loyal to my local Chevy dealer. There are millions more just like me all over the country, and when we all get back on our feet, we'll be needing new cars again. No matter what the economy brings, my wife and I will be probably replacing our vehicles sometime in the next two years.

Just keep up the good work you guys do in getting us consumers the right car with the fairest price, with the right bank backing both us and you with the financing-and both of us will pull through this.

[johnniewalker]

Before we put all the blame in one place and start attacking one another, let's remember that GM CEO Rick Wagoner earned 6 million dollars more in 2007 than he did in 2006, even though GM reported a net loss of 39 billion that year. I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only white collar employee to receive a raise.

Arguing about past practices is futile, however. Something has to be done soon if we're going to have GM stay in the US. Canada has stepped up and given them a few billion because GM has many plants in Ontario.

What's crazy to me is what you could do with that 6 million dollars. Compensating engineers at about 60k would mean you could hire 100 engineers. In such a research heavy industry, this is mind boggling to me how you can justify that. It's not just him if anyone is making that much more is just horrible business. Kinda stating the obvious, but aren't there businesses out there that see this?

[sailor]

It's an option when the thread starter creates the poll.

yeah, i was saying who actually uses that option. the only reason i came here was to vote and now no one will ever know. and it's killin' everyone for sure.

[epo]

Its interesting to watch the fight between President Bush and the Senate republicans on this issue. Bush wants something passed and the Senate republicans clearly want to break the UAW.

President Bush has gone as far as to suggest that he will tap into the TARP (Troubled Asset Relief Program) Funds, which is fund that was created $700 Billion for troubled financial institutions to get the funds.

Let's face it, the auto industry is so interwoven into the American job market that we simply can't let it fail. An estimated 3 million jobs depend upon the industry. Vendors that sell them parts, dealerships, direct employees...its a huge factor of the economy in the midwest.

Just think about this: An estimated 600 vendors sell parts to an auto market for each vehicle that rolls off the lot. Most of these vendors currently have outstanding debt from the Big 3 automakers. Imagine the devastation in the market if the Big Three filed bankruptcy and crushed those companies?

This thing is bigger than people think and it needs to be fixed. Did their business model and thinking suck from a management prospective? Absolutely. But I don't give a bloody shit whether we take the money from the TARP funds or create a new bill...but this needs to get fixed right now.

[johnniewalker]

Doing something doesn't guarantee jobs. Look at Bank of America. If you are merely prolonging the life of upper management, who will be the last to lose their jobs, at the cost of others I'd say you failed just as badly. Where was everyone when Delphi went bankrupt three years ago? It affected numerous sectors too. I was reading an article from three years ago, outlining exactly the same things an article written yesterday would have said. It's time to smarten up.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9644882/page/2/

"No one suggests that bankruptcy filings by General Motors and Ford are imminent or even likely. Both companies have stockpiled billions of dollars in cash to weather another downturn that has become an inevitable part of the industry’s life cycle. But that cycle now appears to be broken.

Though the U.S. economy remains relatively healthy, GM posted a $1.2 billion loss in the second quarter — on top of a $1.1 billion first quarter loss, the worst in more than a decade. And the company’s market share has fallen to all-time lows, as buyers have switched to Toyota, Nissan and other rival Asian automakers.

Even before rising gasoline prices began to erode sales of highly profitable SUVs and light trucks, the American automotive industry faced an uphill battle to profitability.

Much the way newer, low-cost carriers have upended the economics of the airline industry, Detroit’s overseas rivals are forcing their older, higher-cost competitors to slash costs to stay competitive. U.S. automakers spend less money on steel, for example, than they do on health care benefits — a cost its Japanese and European rivals do not face because of national health care programs.

GM’s response has included plans to close plants and cut 25,000 American jobs by 2008. Those cuts will certainly reduce overall costs, but as the automaker shrinks, the cost of pension payments and retiree health benefits is spread over fewer cars, increasing the labor cost of each car, and making it even tougher to offer competitive prices against lower-cost Asian manufacturers."

[SP1!]

Its interesting to watch the fight between President Bush and the Senate republicans on this issue. Bush wants something passed and the Senate republicans clearly want to break the UAW.

President Bush has gone as far as to suggest that he will tap into the TARP (Troubled Asset Relief Program) Funds, which is fund that was created $700 Billion for troubled financial institutions to get the funds.

Let's face it, the auto industry is so interwoven into the American job market that we simply can't let it fail. An estimated 3 million jobs depend upon the industry. Vendors that sell them parts, dealerships, direct employees...its a huge factor of the economy in the midwest.

Just think about this: An estimated 600 vendors sell parts to an auto market for each vehicle that rolls off the lot. Most of these vendors currently have outstanding debt from the Big 3 automakers. Imagine the devastation in the market if the Big Three filed bankruptcy and crushed those companies?

This thing is bigger than people think and it needs to be fixed. Did their business model and thinking suck from a management prospective? Absolutely. But I don't give a bloody shit whether we take the money from the TARP funds or create a new bill...but this needs to get fixed right now.

Of course they want to break the unions, they are a drain on GMs financial future. The average UAW worker makes $65k/year, the national average is $46k/year, they make $20k more than most of the nation on average for doing nothing more than repetitive work day after day. There are quite a few workers that make over 3 figures just because they have been there so long, Im sorry but if you have no education there is no way you deserve that much money a year unless you went out and started your own business or work multiple jobs like my parents did and I have done in the past. Its all bullshit getting rewarded just for staying in a job so long.

American is supposed to be where you bust your ass you can eventually succeed but for some reason people like to think of these UAW workers as middle class when they are upper middle class at the least. The guys I all know that work for unions repair cars on the side for extra money and clear a ton, also most of them have 3 or 4 cars, boats, motor homes or fishing cabins. These guys should never be called middle class like michael moore likes to do, its a fucking play on people sympathies when in reality a lot of people would love to be in these guys shoes.

Even if they declare bankruptcy their pensions will be covered so dont act like the are out on the street if this doesnt pass and they file chapter 11, at worst they will all get hired back at a slight pay decrease. Which is what needs to happen to guarantee long term success, their old business model isnt working which includes their deals with the unions. People refuse to acknowledge that fact.

[scottinnj]

Even if they declare bankruptcy their pensions will be covered

Yes, by us the taxpayers.

[epo]

When the fuck did it become a sin in this nation for an average worker to make a decent wage?

[HBox]

The reason why I and most people feel that way is because we have had extensive schooling and dont come near their benefits or pay, yet somehow they want us to feel this is an attack on the fucking middle class?

You speak for no one but yourself.

Are you fucking serious? You really think that you shouldnt have to get a college, even a 2-year degree is stupid if you want to make a decent life? So you are saying that their wages should just keep going up so they can live in middle class homes when they are essentially pricing their goods out of most peoples price range?

I'll be sure to tell Bill Gates that he owes the rest of us college graduates a shit load of money. He obviously doesn't deserve his, he never graduated college.

I never said they were stupid cause they didnt go to college, but to expect a $100k salary without that degree is stupid, yet the unions say they deserve it for no fucking reason. And yes after one day a fucking monkey could be trained to do their job, have you ever been inside a plant churning out cars? Its fucking easy work, mundane and boring but easy.

Why didn't you go work there if it's such an easy way to make a ton of money you don't deserve.

Of course I would be stupid in your eyes you cant see the obvious bullshit that these people are feeding you, of course their wages arent killing the automakers but when you add in all the benefits for retirees that they still have to pay then its easy to see how they are killing them. Name one other company that continues to pay for its fucking retirees? When you are done you should be out the door with the company absolved of any financial responsibility but for some reason the unions blackmailed them into paying for people that no longer work for them.

Are you fucking serious? Every time I think you can't say something more ignorant and uninformed you go ahead and do it. It's absolutely amazing.

I googled "retiree benefits" and this article came up, naming no less than 4 companies that are paying benefits to retirees. (http://www.fiercetelecom.com/story/windstream-looks-cut-retiree-benefits/2008-12-03)

That was drunk typing but yeah poor sentence structure, congrats you busted me on that.

I will bust you on every stupid thing you post. It's almost a full time job.

I never said underclass but what the fuck makes you think that these people deserve the money they get? Hell if you used to want extra money you could work over time for it, now they expect it from normal 40 hour weeks. And I know plenty of non college graduates making money by starting their own businesses the fact that people feel the middle class way of american life is somehow guaranteed to them is simply fucking ridiculous. A college degree doesnt solidify you a place in the upper class as well but its a nice start, keep attacking so-called elites and defending what you consider the little man when reality shows that most of those little men make more than college graduates. Fucking people and their entitlement bullshit, its fucking amazing that people think a factory worker deserves this much in pay. There is only so much a business can pay and remain profitable, if you dont like those wages fucking leave.

Wait, what?

reality shows that most of those little men make more than college graduates.

Do you just make shit up to support your argument? Nobody could possibly be this ignorant if they paid the slightest attention to what actually goes on in this world.

Now I would love to get in name calling match with you but for some reason if I call a poster an idiot, I get banned. I guess its ok to throw little jabs at the people who arent part of the clique though.

It's not libel if it's true.

[johnniewalker]

Of course they want to break the unions, they are a drain on GMs financial future. The average UAW worker makes $65k/year, the national average is $46k/year, they make $20k more than most of the nation on average for doing nothing more than repetitive work day after day. There are quite a few workers that make over 3 figures just because they have been there so long, Im sorry but if you have no education there is no way you deserve that much money a year unless you went out and started your own business or work multiple jobs like my parents did and I have done in the past. Its all bullshit getting rewarded just for staying in a job so long.


I'm indifferent to unions and workers compensation. Any time millions of people analyze how much you should be compensated, it's bound not to end well. It's not our place as taxpayers and voters to set reasonable salaries. If they pay more then theoretically they are getting the best workers. I don't know what they do, but perhaps they do the job better than others. Cost of living has to be factored in too. All those factors go into the contract. To me we shouldn't be so intermingled in nonsense like this.

[SP1!]

You speak for no one but yourself.

I'll be sure to tell Bill Gates that he owes the rest of us college graduates a shit load of money. He obviously doesn't deserve his, he never graduated college.

Why didn't you go work there if it's such an easy way to make a ton of money you don't deserve.

Are you fucking serious? Every time I think you can't say something more ignorant and uninformed you go ahead and do it. It's absolutely amazing.

I googled "retiree benefits" and this article came up, naming no less than 4 companies that are paying benefits to retirees. (http://www.fiercetelecom.com/story/windstream-looks-cut-retiree-benefits/2008-12-03)

I will bust you on every stupid thing you post. It's almost a full time job.

Wait, what?

Do you just make shit up to support your argument? Nobody could possibly be this ignorant if they paid the slightest attention to what actually goes on in this world.

It's not libel if it's true.
You always have this way of acting like you are trying to talk down to people who wont fit you narrow view of your perception, its glaringly obvious.

1) A majority of people outside of union based states disagree with bailing out the unions
2)Once again you just keep spouting shit, I have stated numerous times that either you get a degree to move you along or you start your own company. Owning your own business is the best way to make money, as long as you know what you are doing.
3)You have to know someone to get into UAW plants, I was asked to join one union but didnt like the rules I would have to adhere to, there were too many restrictions against me earning my own money.
4)You googled and found 4 companies that had plans the employees paid in to for benefits, with company matching benefits. The UAW blackmailed the automakers into paying for all of their retirement benefits but when they are on the verge of collapse they wont even think of even adjusting the plan a tiny little bit. Nice, let them die.
5)Starting out they will make more money than most college graduates, its a fact. Add in the point that a majority of people will end up having to pay off student loans and it is a huge difference.
6)It has nothing to do with libel, they said it was abuse and reported it as such. It was bullshit then just like its bullshit that you think you are right, you have just been spouting union bullshit lines, dont act like you have original thoughts.

Fact, union workers make on average $65K/year, the rest of the nation makes $46K/year, they start out with about the same $19k/year difference.

Argue all you want but refusing to acknowledge they add huge costs to the bottom line just proves the point that you have no clue what you are talking about.

As long as they are not willing to budge on wage concessions/benefits then they are just as scummy as the execs they are trying to vilify.

[SP1!]

I'm indifferent to unions and workers compensation. Any time millions of people analyze how much you should be compensated, it's bound not to end well. It's not our place as taxpayers and voters to set reasonable salaries. If they pay more then theoretically they are getting the best workers. I don't know what they do, but perhaps they do the job better than others. Cost of living has to be factored in too. All those factors go into the contract. To me we shouldn't be so intermingled in nonsense like this.

That would all be fine but in reality they are a step above a warehouse worker and to get into the union jobs you have to find a "friend" to get you that first step in the interview.

[robot artist]

I say yes, bail them out, but - then merge all three into ONE COMPANY.

Then oversee new stripped down management, drastically reduce the number of different models produced, and force a shift to production of more hybrid and alternate power source vehicles. Have management and the unions accept a reduction of pay and benefits across the board. They can then compete on a more level playing field with the foreign manufacturers.

If it was just the auto factories that would fail, you might let them go the way of the dinosaurs. But there are just too many other businesses and jobs connected to the auto industry, that allowing them all to collapse would cripple the nation's economy. I mean even more horribily fucked than it currently is. Like great-depression-dust-bowl era fucked.

To use a car analogy, right now we're sputtering along in the emergency lane of the highway running on the fumes of an almost empty tank. Bankruptcy would be the red hot engine seizing up with no oil at 170 miles per hour, and we all go flying through the windshield face first.

But then again, what the fuck do I know. As my name indicates, I'm not even human.

[HBox]

You always have this way of acting like you are trying to talk down to people who wont fit you narrow view of your perception, its glaringly obvious.

I argue with people all the time. When anyone else is presented with something disproving something they posted they react as a normal person would and reassess. They don't go on believing the shit they made up and continue. This isn't the first time you've made up shit and it won't be the last I'm sure.

1) A majority of people outside of union based states disagree with bailing out the unions

First of all it's an auto bailout and yes, the entire country opposes this bailout. There's been consistent opposition to all the bailouts. This isn't any different from the bailouts where unions weren't involved.

What they don't share is your hatred and condescension towards blue collar workers.

2)Once again you just keep spouting shit, I have stated numerous times that either you get a degree to move you along or you start your own company. Owning your own business is the best way to make money, as long as you know what you are doing.

So these are the only SP1 approved methods to becoming rich if one is a lowly non-college graduate?

3)You have to know someone to get into UAW plants, I was asked to join one union but didnt like the rules I would have to adhere to, there were too many restrictions against me earning my own money.

I'm so sure this story is true.

4)You googled and found 4 companies that had plans the employees paid in to for benefits, with company matching benefits. The UAW blackmailed the automakers into paying for all of their retirement benefits but when they are on the verge of collapse they wont even think of even adjusting the plan a tiny little bit. Nice, let them die.

You really need to learn to express yourself better then if that's what you meant. Because this:

Name one other company that continues to pay for its fucking retirees?

Does not mean what you intended.

5)Starting out they will make more money than most college graduates, its a fact. Add in the point that a majority of people will end up having to pay off student loans and it is a huge difference.

You do realize that recent GM hires are making substantially less, both in money and benefits, than older workers are, right? These average numbers are jacked up by older workers who started at higher salaries and have worked up from there.

6)It has nothing to do with libel, they said it was abuse and reported it as such. It was bullshit then just like its bullshit that you think you are right, you have just been spouting union bullshit lines, dont act like you have original thoughts.

Congratulations! You don't get metaphors!

But if it makes you feel better I'll discipline myself. I've been a very naughty boy and I will no longer hurt certain people's feelings by calling names.

Fact, union workers make on average $65K/year, the rest of the nation makes $46K/year, they start out with about the same $19k/year difference.

What you said is not a fact and is not anywhere near logical. Yes, the average salaries are correct. However, the rest of the nation does not include all college graduates. They include many other non-college graduates. Furthermore, average salaries have nothing to do with where people "start." A college graduate has much more upward potential no matter where they start.

Argue all you want but refusing to acknowledge they add huge costs to the bottom line just proves the point that you have no clue what you are talking about.

I never said they didn't. Because that would be bullshit. Of course employee costs are huge to GM. It's a huge factor. In fact, I said earlier in the thread I no longer support this bailout because management doesn't want to change and the union doesn't want to make cuts.

To finish this off: We live in a largely free market country. As such any discussion of what people's work is "worth" is completely academic and meaningless. People are "worth" as much as they can get employers to agree to pay them. If we paid people what we think their work is worth from a utilitarian perspective then doctors, teachers and soldiers would be paid the most in this country. As it is only doctors get paid anything approaching what they are "worth." But implementing anything like that would be decidedly NOT free market or capitalistic.

So if the unions are and continue to make too much for the company to bear the company and union will be over. Anything less than that and good for them. I'm not going to begrudge anyone else for getting paid well.

[Syd]

I never said they didn't. Because that would be bullshit. Of course employee costs are huge to GM. It's a huge factor. In fact, I said earlier in the thread I no longer support this bailout because management doesn't want to change and the union doesn't want to make cuts.

Union already made huge cuts in 2007. Had the market delayed itself on tanking, GM was primed to be in the black in North America by 2010-2012 because of the deal they made with the UAW. So why should the UAW make cuts again, lowering their wages to below that of other workers? So a bunch of midwest know-nothings can look towards McConnell and say "GAW DARN IT JESUS IS PROUD OF YOU FOR VOTING AWAY PEOPLES COMPENSATION" There's no reason at all to cut UAW benefits again except for spite, jealousy and ignorance.

[scottinnj]

http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2006/09/08/435099/chevroletbowtielogo1.jpg

RULES!

I'd like to see the daily driver of any senator that voted against the loan for Detroit, and if it's an import, take 'em out back and beat them with a shock absorber.

And again, I'm not 100% for the loan, but the way these guys acted towards Detroit, was absolutely traitorous-

http://www.ussslater.org/decks/platfrm2/16-278a/gm16out.jpg

That is a picture of a diesel engine GM built for destroyer escorts during World War II. These Senators in the South should Thank God everyday we won that war instead of pointing to Toyota as the standard for American manufacturing.

I have told my kids one thing about our family: You may have friends, you may not like your siblings, but if I ever hear one of them speak ill of each other to their freinds, I'll beat them into pulp. You NEVER cross your family. Same here.

I don't give a shit if Chevy made cars out of cardboard and silly string-don't pit one section of AMERICAN workers against another section of AMERICAN workers because you had to suck on some Jap cock to get their factory in your district.

FUCKOS FUCKOS FUCKOS FUCKOS FUCKOS FUCKOS FUCKOS FUCKOS FUCKOS FUCKOS FUCKOS one and all.

My next car is going to be a Chevy. And I'm buying it at Bennett Chevrolet (http://www.bennettchevy.com). And I hope Senator Shelby can look at himself tonight and feel good about himself for implying American workers get paid too much money for what they do.

[HBox]

Interesting Op-Ed from Business Week about the auto bailout. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28239206/)

All of those states mentioned for paying foreign car makers to build plants in their states, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, Mississippi, Texas and South Carolina, as of the latest numbers available paid less in federal taxes than they received, except for Texas. They've all been receiving state welfare and using it to build up their own factories. And now these blatant fucking hypocrites are all of a sudden mortified about a giveaway to Michigan, who pays more in federal taxes than it receives? The same people who fight to maintain their states own sweet deals?

I wish someone would slam these particular state's senators with their hypocrisy.

[scottinnj]

Interesting Op-Ed from Business Week about the auto bailout. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28239206/)[/color][/size]


Here's another quote from that article:

Of course, when Alabama gave Mercedes-Benz $253 million to build a factory there, or about $168,000 per job created, that was considered a good thing. When Honda considered building a new factory there, that was worth $158 million, and Hyundai's Southern site choice forced the state to cough up $234 million more. Again, these were considered wise investments because the promise was that they would create more jobs for the chronically underpaid Alabama workforce. However, in the summer of 2003, Mercedes brought in Polish workers on questionable B-1 work visas to expand the factory because they could be paid far less than the local workforce.

FUCK YOU SHELBY. Not only do you say "American Workers" get paid too much, you let in the Nazis and allow them to push out AMERICAN WORKERS in their own country for foreigners.

But then again, Shelby has his state all worked up over Mexicans crossing the border they don't even realize he's letting their jobs be taken from them by the companies he's in bed with.

Bait and switch. Fuck you again Shelby.

Edit: Letter written and sent to Dickhole Shelby. I HOPE HE GETS RUN OVER BY A TUNDRA.

[SP1!]

I argue with people all the time. When anyone else is presented with something disproving something they posted they react as a normal person would and reassess. They don't go on believing the shit they made up and continue. This isn't the first time you've made up shit and it won't be the last I'm sure.

First of all it's an auto bailout and yes, the entire country opposes this bailout. There's been consistent opposition to all the bailouts. This isn't any different from the bailouts where unions weren't involved.

What they don't share is your hatred and condescension towards blue collar workers.

So these are the only SP1 approved methods to becoming rich if one is a lowly non-college graduate?

I'm so sure this story is true.

You really need to learn to express yourself better then if that's what you meant. Because this:

Does not mean what you intended.

You do realize that recent GM hires are making substantially less, both in money and benefits, than older workers are, right? These average numbers are jacked up by older workers who started at higher salaries and have worked up from there.

Congratulations! You don't get metaphors!

But if it makes you feel better I'll discipline myself. I've been a very naughty boy and I will no longer hurt certain people's feelings by calling names.

What you said is not a fact and is not anywhere near logical. Yes, the average salaries are correct. However, the rest of the nation does not include all college graduates. They include many other non-college graduates. Furthermore, average salaries have nothing to do with where people "start." A college graduate has much more upward potential no matter where they start.

I never said they didn't. Because that would be bullshit. Of course employee costs are huge to GM. It's a huge factor. In fact, I said earlier in the thread I no longer support this bailout because management doesn't want to change and the union doesn't want to make cuts.

To finish this off: We live in a largely free market country. As such any discussion of what people's work is "worth" is completely academic and meaningless. People are "worth" as much as they can get employers to agree to pay them. If we paid people what we think their work is worth from a utilitarian perspective then doctors, teachers and soldiers would be paid the most in this country. As it is only doctors get paid anything approaching what they are "worth." But implementing anything like that would be decidedly NOT free market or capitalistic.

So if the unions are and continue to make too much for the company to bear the company and union will be over. Anything less than that and good for them. I'm not going to begrudge anyone else for getting paid well.

1)I havent made up shit, you chose to think that as a way to dismiss scatter shot facts.
2)No they are not wanting to bail out an industry that has consistently had problems but has done very little to correct the problems, and I dont have a hatred for blue collar workers, hell I started as one, my father was one. I do have a hatred for people asking for a handout and my father started his own business and is making more than the average UAW worker but we both had to bust our ass for that.
3)Thats not sp's guide, thats common sense, sorry that seems to escape you
4)The story is true, I was to join the IBEW but didnt like the fact I couldnt work over time when ever I wanted or could even work side jobs for extra cash, its my life I should be able to do what I want with my free time.
5)Yes cause the plans you cited were really fucking close to the UAW retiree plans, which of course is what we were arguing but you chose to argue a completely different point.
6)Yes and those new GM employees arent full fledged union members, it was part of the previous concession by the UAW which was too little, they still make too much starting out. Their wages are still higher than every other blue collar worker who starts out closer to $10-$13/hour where UAW workers make $28/hour (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-09-25-uaw-wed_N.htm) according to their last "huge concession", hardly blue collar IMO. Hell when I was supervising crews building switches throughout the nation I didnt make that much.
7)I wasnt whining just pointing out double standards, bitch away it doesnt really faze me since I know I refuse to fall in line with their opinions then I must always be wrong.
8)I know quite a few college graduates who would like to make $50k a year starting out, those jobs are hard to find now, especially in this economy.
9)It would be nice to be a free market economy where price dictates retribution, it seems the unions only want a free market when it comes to getting their goods imported but when it comes to labor GM must still adhere to clauses in their contract even if the market dries up. Its all bullshit.

[HBox]

1)I havent made up shit, you chose to think that as a way to dismiss scatter shot facts.

North Korea never tested a nuke, right? All the government's just got together and lied about it. That's what you said right?

2)No they are not wanting to bail out an industry that has consistently had problems but has done very little to correct the problems, and I dont have a hatred for blue collar workers, hell I started as one, my father was one. I do have a hatred for people asking for a handout and my father started his own business and is making more than the average UAW worker but we both had to bust our ass for that.

Just like they didn't want to support the bailouts of AIG or the banks. And I don't see anything that back up the initial union bailout comment.

3)Thats not sp's guide, thats common sense, sorry that seems to escape you

Well I was the first one in my family to graduate college so obviously the nice house my parents bought that I grew up in and all my aunt's and uncles houses must be a lie. So was my uncle's job in finance or my aunt's job running a company (she doesn't own it) or my Dad's job low level executive job all making more than the UAW average must all be lies. None of them graduated college or own a company so they are all dirty rotten liars.

5)Yes cause the plans you cited were really fucking close to the UAW retiree plans, which of course is what we were arguing but you chose to argue a completely different point.

Stop acting as if what you backtracked to is what you originally said.

6)Yes and those new GM employees arent full fledged union members, it was part of the previous concession by the UAW which was too little, they still make too much starting out. Their wages are still higher than every other blue collar worker who starts out closer to $10-$13/hour where UAW workers make $28/hour (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-09-25-uaw-wed_N.htm) according to their last "huge concession", hardly blue collar IMO. Hell when I was supervising crews building switches throughout the nation I didnt make that much.

You still need to learn why you shouldn't conflate an average salary with what someone starts out making.

7)I wasnt whining just pointing out double standards, bitch away it doesnt really faze me since I know I refuse to fall in line with their opinions then I must always be wrong.

No, you have a problem falling in line with facts.

8)I know quite a few college graduates who would like to make $50k a year starting out, those jobs are hard to find now, especially in this economy.

Depending on what your major is you could easily make that much. It all depends on what someone is willing to pay you. and that's all that matters. If someone wants more money they have to do something else.

9)It would be nice to be a free market economy where price dictates retribution, it seems the unions only want a free market when it comes to getting their goods imported but when it comes to labor GM must still adhere to clauses in their contract even if the market dries up. Its all bullshit.

It's no wonder you had no idea what socialism actually is because you have no idea what capitalism actually is. The determining factor of what a product costs is how much people are willing to pay for it, no matter much more or less that might be than the cost of making said product. What you described is more akin to planned economies. As for GM having to honor contracts it signed? Boo fucking hoo.

And I'm assuming you meant getting their products exported.

[foodcourtdruide]

When the fuck did it become a sin in this nation for an average worker to make a decent wage?

This, in a nutshell, sums things up for me. Why do republicans hate when the working class benefits? It's the oddest thing in the world to me. They seem to HATE the concept of unions, even when they work.

[Syd]

This, in a nutshell, sums things up for me. Why do republicans hate when the working class benefits? It's the oddest thing in the world to me. They seem to HATE the concept of unions, even when they work.

Living wages represent a threat to capitalism. If there aren't substantially more people under you, you won't be making as much money relative to the goods you purchase.

[foodcourtdruide]

Living wages represent a threat to capitalism. If there aren't substantially more people under you, you won't be making as much money relative to the goods you purchase.

Is it that simple? Is it a maintaining of power thing? Do the anti-Unionites just think, "I want them to have less, because I can potentially have more"?

[Zorro]

Here is an interesting list I ran across as there are 18 Senators who voted for the $700B for the financial bailout, yet voted against the auto bridge loan of $14 billion.

Bob Bennett - Utah
Richard Burr - North Carolina
Saxy Chambliss - Georgia
Tom Coburn - Oklahoma
Norm Coleman - Minnesota
Bob Corker - Tennesse
John Ensign - Nevada
Chuck Grassley - Virginia
Judd Gregg - New Hampshire
Orrin Hatch - Utah
Kay Bailey Hutchinson - Texas
Johnny Isakson - Georgia
John Kyl - Arizona
Mel Martinez - Florida
John McCain - Arizona
Mitch McConnell - Kentucky
Lisa Murkowski - Arkansas
John Thune - South Dakota

Hypocrits each and every one of them.


My brother in law came to me once borrowing money he could not survive without. I lent ...he pissed it away and I never got it back. Later I was asked to lend money again. Remembering how I'd been ripped off the first time I said "No". Does that make me a hypocrite or just someone who's wised up? The TARP was a scam and realizing so maybe their just not willing to get lied to again.

[Recyclerz]

Living wages represent a threat to capitalism. If there aren't substantially more people under you, you won't be making as much money relative to the goods you purchase.

This is an interesting, perhaps unique, world view. I suspect that a flaming commie like, say, Henry Ford, might disagree with you.

You might be Trumpism School of Economic Theory Card Holder Number 2.

[HBox]

Is it that simple? Is it a maintaining of power thing? Do the anti-Unionites just think, "I want them to have less, because I can potentially have more"?

No. I'ts just an obsessive fixation on the second part. It's "I want to make more no matter what." It starts out with this "I'm a responsible part of the community." A business owner employs people and at first feels good about contributing to the community. Then, like any business they run into adversity. They feel threatened and feel like someone who is doing something good for their community is under assault. Then they conflate their own personal success with that. Then all of a sudden they conflate their own personal prosperity with that.

The insane debate about small businesses under Obama's tax plan was a great example. The greedy, disingenuous assholes who called into O&A and were egged on by Anthony were an example. People who barely made more than $250,000 and took advantage of other people's ignorance saying "I'm gonna have to lay off so many people" even though the tax increases for business income anywhere close to $250,000 would be so marginal that it would only impact their own pockets. It wouldn't even come close to one employee's full yearly salary. And if these people really ran their own businesses they would know that. So if they didn't fire someone it would only be to make sure they themselves maintained their own lifestyle to the T. And when you are doing that any defense that they are helping their community and the economy is flushed down the toilet. Actually doing something good requires sacrifice. You can't just be throwing money around when times are good and it's easy to do so and then when times get rough for everyone make take a fit because it's not as easy to do all those good things you were doing and because its not so easy you just aren't going to do them. That's when you are just another rich, asshole boss who will fire people at the first slightest sign of trouble.

That was quite a tangent. Sorry about that.

[conman823]

Is it that simple? Is it a maintaining of power thing? Do the anti-Unionites just think, "I want them to have less, because I can potentially have more"?

As an "anti-Unionite" I think: Unions are a cancer on American Companies and workers; Unions are outdated and unnessary due to much improved workers rights laws; Unions Enable people to NOT attempt to advance themselves because they can be incompitent lazy and slacker-ish with Union backing to fight for them.

I don't want the workers to have less, I want the UNIONS to have less......and die off. I want fair pay for a fair days work. I want to be evaluated and given a raise based on MY work ethic and not a uniform rate. Example: I only called out 3 times in a year, worked OT to help out my family and stayed late to help the company. Bobby over there, used over 10 sick days, committed an unsafe act at work and beat suspension because of Union Reps, and never stays a minute more then he has to even if it would help all the workers. Why do we both get the same rate of pay?

[Zorro]

As an "anti-Unionite" I think: Unions are a cancer on American Companies and workers; Unions are outdated and unnessary due to much improved workers rights laws; Unions Enable people to NOT attempt to advance themselves because they can be incompitent lazy and slacker-ish with Union backing to fight for them.

I don't want the workers to have less, I want the UNIONS to have less......and die off. I want fair pay for a fair days work. I want to be evaluated and given a raise based on MY work ethic and not a uniform rate. Example: I only called out 3 times in a year, worked OT to help out my family and stayed late to help the company. Bobby over there, used over 10 sick days, committed an unsafe act at work and beat suspension because of Union Reps, and never stays a minute more then he has to even if it would help all the workers. Why do we both get the same rate of pay?


Seems like one of those Rush Limbaugh type arguments that have little to do with reality.

[Zorro]

No. I'ts just an obsessive fixation on the second part. It's "I want to make more no matter what." It starts out with this "I'm a responsible part of the community." A business owner employs people and at first feels good about contributing to the community. Then, like any business they run into adversity. They feel threatened and feel like someone who is doing something good for their community is under assault. Then they conflate their own personal success with that. Then all of a sudden they conflate their own personal prosperity with that.

The insane debate about small businesses under Obama's tax plan was a great example. The greedy, disingenuous assholes who called into O&A and were egged on by Anthony were an example. People who barely made more than $250,000 and took advantage of other people's ignorance saying "I'm gonna have to lay off so many people" even though the tax increases for business income anywhere close to $250,000 would be so marginal that it would only impact their own pockets. It wouldn't even come close to one employee's full yearly salary. And if these people really ran their own businesses they would know that. So if they didn't fire someone it would only be to make sure they themselves maintained their own lifestyle to the T. And when you are doing that any defense that they are helping their community and the economy is flushed down the toilet. Actually doing something good requires sacrifice. You can't just be throwing money around when times are good and it's easy to do so and then when times get rough for everyone make take a fit because it's not as easy to do all those good things you were doing and because its not so easy you just aren't going to do them. That's when you are just another rich, asshole boss who will fire people at the first slightest sign of trouble.

That was quite a tangent. Sorry about that.

Sweeping generalization...and not at all accurate.You have no idea what it is to be an "asshole" boss. Keeping jobs open for sick employees, making their payrol and delaying your own, having everyone of their life crisis affect you... It's not easy and I've worked a lot of 14-15 hour days to get here. So, don't judge me if i let somebody go. I'm not doing it for fun or enjoyment. I'm doing it because I want to preserve everyone else's job.

[conman823]

Seems like one of those Rush Limbaugh type arguments that have little to do with reality.

Really? I work for a railroad in the NYC Metro area. It has a TWU local in it. I am a management employee, but started as a union craft employee. It is MY reality.


Sweeping generalization...and not at all accurate.You have no idea what it is to be an "asshole" boss. Keeping jobs open for sick employees, making their payrol and delaying your own, having everyone of their life crisis affect you... It's not easy and I've worked a lot of 14-15 hour days to get here. So, don't judge me if i let somebody go. I'm not doing it for fun or enjoyment. I'm doing it because I want to preserve everyone else's job.

He might not know, but I sure as hell do. Your second post seems to sympathize with my "Unions should die" post.

It just always seems that if your anti-union in this country your labeled a "Rush Limaugh type". Which is completely false in my case, I was just raised to work hard and get ahead. I thought that was the american way, but now I'm confused. :unsure:

[HBox]

Sweeping generalization...and not at all accurate.You have no idea what it is to be an "asshole" boss. Keeping jobs open for sick employees, making their payrol and delaying your own, having everyone of their life crisis affect you... It's not easy and I've worked a lot of 14-15 hour days to get here. So, don't judge me if i let somebody go. I'm not doing it for fun or enjoyment. I'm doing it because I want to preserve everyone else's job.

Really? I work for a railroad in the NYC Metro area. It has a TWU local in it. I am a management employee, but started as a union craft employee. It is MY reality.




He might not know, but I sure as hell do. Your second post seems to sympathize with my "Unions should die" post.

It just always seems that if your anti-union in this country your labeled a "Rush Limaugh type". Which is completely false in my case, I was just raised to work hard and get ahead. I thought that was the american way, but now I'm confused. :unsure:

I wasn't clear when I went off on that tangent. My point wasn't that every business owner who fires someone is an asshole. I only meant to refer to it in regards to the example I gave at the beginning of that paragraph as far as firing someone to because of a modest tax increase. My intended point: Being the good guy takes more than just being generous in good times. It sounds like you are. Bravo for that.

[Gvac]

Chrysler has announced that effective this Friday, December 19, it will cease production on all its vehicles for at least 30 days. They claim that while they have many potential customers, they're unable to obtain the credit to buy their vehicles.

Imagine - all Chrysler, Jeep, and Dodge manufacturing plants will be closed down for a month. It's almost incomprehensible.

[johnniewalker]

Chrysler has announced that effective this Friday, December 19, it will cease production on all its vehicles for at least 30 days. They claim that while they have many potential customers, they're unable to obtain the credit to buy their vehicles.

Imagine - all Chrysler, Jeep, and Dodge manufacturing plants will be closed down for a month. It's almost incomprehensible.

Near my house in between schaumberg and Rockford is a Dodge plant that always put of the sleigh of dodge neons. It's going to be creepy to see that huge plant empty when I drive past it. Lennox a big air conditioning manufacturer is shutting down in Iowa too putting my uncle out of work. When I worked at Culligan in Northbrook, the same thing the whole manufacturing section was shipped off. It's such a mind blowing thing to see that many people completely displaced.

[scottinnj]

Is it that simple? Is it a maintaining of power thing? Do the anti-Unionites just think, "I want them to have less, because I can potentially have more"?

More now then earlier in history. But when the Labor Movement first came to be in the USA, corporate greed and working conditions were so out of control it seemed we were destined to become like India with a caste system of citizenry. Then after the second world war, demand for American goods was so high because we were one of a very few nations that were able to retool from war to peacetime as quickly as we did. Profits were very good for most CEOs who also remembered what a disaster The Depression was, and were very generous to their workforce, because happy workers bought stuff, and it was a good time for all.

But lately it's been the "I'm gonna get mine" mentality that has permeated everyone here. And since those with the money make the rules, "I'm gonna get mine" meant a display of greed and uncaring on unprecedented levels until finally, the money train was broken and now everyone is suffering.
Take for instance Big Oil. You thought the cities of Rome and the pyramids of Egypt were impressive, look at the cities and palaces being built in the Middle East with the trillions of dollars we have sent there in the past 10 years. Also the quarterly profits of Mobil and Shell were higher then most companies made in their lifetime. In the history of mankind!
And while all of this was going on, I'm asking myself, "how much is enough for these people?" And they literally drained the public dry, because the wave of higher costs due from an artificially inflated price for energy made transportation, food and utilities go up, so instead of being able to buy things, Americans were spending money on the things we needed to live with, so everything else went downhill, people lost jobs, and now we're in a vicious circle of a working population that won't spend their money, so more and more people lose their jobs because no money is being spent.

[conman823]

Chrysler has announced that effective this Friday, December 19, it will cease production on all its vehicles for at least 30 days. They claim that while they have many potential customers, they're unable to obtain the credit to buy their vehicles.

Imagine - all Chrysler, Jeep, and Dodge manufacturing plants will be closed down for a month. It's almost incomprehensible.

I saw on the news last night that the "Big 3" usually close the plants for 2 weeks around this time of year. Apparently the extra two weeks in due to the lack of credit for people to buy new cars, and to allow the production costs to drop a little.

Employees will suppliment there income with unemployment benefits for the month, so they will at least have some check. It really affects the parts vendors more then anyone else, the supply more then one automaker. If they all do a month shutdown vendors will be hurt most.

Mostly I think its so the media will say "Oh my god!! Give them the money!!"

[Syd]

Is it that simple? Is it a maintaining of power thing? Do the anti-Unionites just think, "I want them to have less, because I can potentially have more"?

It really is. Check out the correlation between states and whether they're union friendly and poverty level:

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/eco_per_bel_pov_lev-economy-percent-below-poverty-level

DC is kind of an outlier since no manufacturing will really ever exist there. Still, you have to appreciate the sort of PR campaign (and I hate to use this term) big business is doing. They know that about 40% of the nation will believe anything you tell them, so long as you tell it to them first and in a way that they can understand and more importantly repeat. Once you convince your 40%, those people will invariably badger other people into thinking that. When you have people who are slaves to drugs/money like Limbaugh in your pocket you wield a lot of power over the impressionable.

Don't take me as an anarchist or anything -- capitalism is fine. I have no problem with capitalism. It's more the unabated capitalism that leads us into problems.

[epo]

President Bush obviously doesn't think GM/Chrysler should fail: (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aVReRlDm9okA&refer=home)

General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC will get $13.4 billion in initial government loans to keep operating in exchange for a restructuring under a rescue plan announced by President George W. Bush.

A bankruptcy is unlikely to work for the automakers at this time and can’t be allowed, Bush said at the White House.

“These are not ordinary circumstances,” Bush said. “In the midst of a financial crisis and a recession, allowing the U.S. auto industry to collapse is not a responsible course of action.”

The money will be drawn from the Troubled Asset Relief Program and the automakers will get an additional $4 billion from the fund in February for a total of $17.4 billion in assistance, according to a statement from the Bush administration. The funds would allow GM and Chrysler to keep operating until March.

The one thing I'll say is that I support the bailout but I am glad the money is coming from the TARP Fund and not a separate funding.

[furie]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a423KVNUfxXY&refer=worldwide

[scottinnj]

4 billion in Canadian Dollars? And 13 Billion American?

Okay, let's see what they do with it. At least like epo said, it came from the TAARP fund and not some new borrowing.

Fingers crossed for success!

[jonyrotn]

When the fuck did it become a sin in this nation for an average worker to make a decent wage?
1776..

[scottinnj]

Story Here (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/business/worldbusiness/23toyota.html?hp)

Hey Senator Shelby-

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/13/18603048_6a73aaa269.jpg?v=0

Where's Your UAW Scapegoat, NOOOOOWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doesn't Toyota build cars in a tax subsidized factory IN YOUR STATE FUCKO!!!

[Syd]

4 billion in Canadian Dollars? And 13 Billion American?

Okay, let's see what they do with it. At least like epo said, it came from the TAARP fund and not some new borrowing.

Fingers crossed for success!

GM should do quite well. When the UAW renegotiated from their all-star contract they picked up when GM was at its most profitable, everyone expected GM to rebound in a big way. I don't know exactly when they'll be out of the red in North America, but it'll be sooner rather than later. They'll be fine, thankfully.

Mopar is still up in the air. Cerberus bought them for Jeep and I guess they're just biding their time till someone like Hyundai or whoever throws money at them for the name.

Ford is a mystery to me, but since they have some of the best cars on the market in Europe I assume once they get their asses in gear and bring them here they'll be just fine too.

[Syd]

wanna bail out that sexual video

[SP1!]

When the fuck did it become a sin in this nation for an average worker to make a decent wage?

Its amazing people feel $28/hour is decent for turning a wrench 8 hours a day, if they want to make that much money get certified as a mechanic and make $40/hour, then its justified. Making almost $30/hour for what is almost warehouse work is fucking ridiculous, I never made close to that even when I got promoted up to managing a warehouse so nobody ever should bring up me hating blue collar workers, I was fucking one for a long time till I got a better skill set but I never felt I was under paid, it was idiot work that I could train a monkey to do.

Oh and heres something for all the UAW defenders. (http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/uaw-losing-millions-keeping-golf-course-open-21574)

[foodcourtdruide]

Its amazing people feel $28/hour is decent for turning a wrench 8 hours a day, if they want to make that much money get certified as a mechanic and make $40/hour, then its justified. Making almost $30/hour for what is almost warehouse work is fucking ridiculous, I never made close to that even when I got promoted up to managing a warehouse so nobody ever should bring up me hating blue collar workers, I was fucking one for a long time till I got a better skill set but I never felt I was under paid, it was idiot work that I could train a monkey to do.

Oh and heres something for all the UAW defenders. (http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/uaw-losing-millions-keeping-golf-course-open-21574)

lol, wow. and they call liberals elitists?

[scottinnj]

Oh and heres something for all the UAW defenders. (http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/uaw-losing-millions-keeping-golf-course-open-21574)


What's that got to do with the worker's level of performance at the factory vs. non-UAW workers in the South?

Why are ALL car companies losing money, but somehow it's the fault of overpaid UAW workers?

So if the UAW has invested in a golf course with money from union dues, which is NOT TAXPAYER MONEY WHICH MEANS IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS IN THE FIRST PLACE, explain to me how that is making GM go bankrupt. It just means the UAW bosses are fucktards too. Has no bearing at all on the economic troubles of the auto industry.

People aren't buying cars. That is why GM, Ford and Chrysler, Toyota, Mitsubishi Hyundai and every other car manufacturer on the globe are losing money. It's got nothing to do with how the UAW chooses to spend its membership revenue.

[mrjackfrenko]

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[scottinnj]

Its amazing people feel $28/hour is decent for turning a wrench 8 hours a day, if they want to make that much money get certified as a mechanic and make $40/hour, then its justified.

It's amazing that people who want businesses to be left alone have complaints on how management and labor negotiate contracts.

The UAW workers are worth as much as Chrysler, Ford and GM are willing to pay them. Therefore, if the work wasn't worth paying 28 bucks an hour + benefits and a pension, management should never have signed the contract they negotiated with the UAW.

Am I the only true conservative on this board anymore?

[Recyclerz]

It's amazing that people who want businesses to be left alone have complaints on how management and labor negotiate contracts.

The UAW workers are worth as much as Chrysler, Ford and GM are willing to pay them. Therefore, if the work wasn't worth paying 28 bucks an hour + benefits and a pension, management should never have signed the contract they negotiated with the UAW.

Am I the only true conservative on this board anymore?

To your last point first, you are the only one we still like. :wink:

The biggest problem with the economics of the traditional American-based car industry is that their management over the last four decades or so has been almost criminally short-sighted in running their businesses. Even while the rest of the world started catching up to the US industrial base (starting in the 1960's) they acted as if their post-WW2 monopoly position was forever. Even worse was the practice of buying labor peace with very generous retirement promises (rather than increased wages up front) that would be somebody else's problem to deal with. Well, we're the historical somebody else. Of course the Big 3's management aren't the only ones guity of this - politicians at all levels are equally as guilty. (The next decade's civil wars will be property tax payers hating on the municipal employee unions for the unsustainable retirement benefits they've negotiated.)

My feeling is that the only way to save these companies, and a LOT of others, is to push health care costs onto a new platform that splits the responsibility for paying onto the government/taxpayers and the insured individuals. I hope Obama's people are as smart as advertised cause we need some good new thinking in this area pronto.

[foodcourtdruide]

It's amazing that people who want businesses to be left alone have complaints on how management and labor negotiate contracts.

The UAW workers are worth as much as Chrysler, Ford and GM are willing to pay them. Therefore, if the work wasn't worth paying 28 bucks an hour + benefits and a pension, management should never have signed the contract they negotiated with the UAW.

Am I the only true conservative on this board anymore?

I agree with you Scott and I always ask myself this question. It makes me think some (from personal experience, it seems ilke most) conservatives are simply sheeps for big corporations. The rules of free market should ONLY apply when a big corporation is profiting.

[SP1!]

What's that got to do with the worker's level of performance at the factory vs. non-UAW workers in the South?

Why are ALL car companies losing money, but somehow it's the fault of overpaid UAW workers?

So if the UAW has invested in a golf course with money from union dues, which is NOT TAXPAYER MONEY WHICH MEANS IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS IN THE FIRST PLACE, explain to me how that is making GM go bankrupt. It just means the UAW bosses are fucktards too. Has no bearing at all on the economic troubles of the auto industry.

People aren't buying cars. That is why GM, Ford and Chrysler, Toyota, Mitsubishi Hyundai and every other car manufacturer on the globe are losing money. It's got nothing to do with how the UAW chooses to spend its membership revenue.
Ummmm even the plants in the south are UAW plants

[high fly]

When the fuck did it become a sin in this nation for an average worker to make a decent wage?



Something I figured out long ago addresses this:



Conservatives are for giving the most to those who need the least

Liberals are for giving the most to those who need the most




.

[high fly]

It's amazing that people who want businesses to be left alone have complaints on how management and labor negotiate contracts.

The UAW workers are worth as much as Chrysler, Ford and GM are willing to pay them. Therefore, if the work wasn't worth paying 28 bucks an hour + benefits and a pension, management should never have signed the contract they negotiated with the UAW.

Am I the only true conservative on this board anymore?


Well said, Scott.
Additionally, it was not the assembly line workers who took the executive decisions that led to these companies being in such trouble.

[scottinnj]

Ummmm even the plants in the south are UAW plants

The Toyota Corolla and the Toyota Tacoma

The Mitsubishi Eclipse, Galant, Raider and Endeavor.

The Isuzu I-Series Pickup (essentially the same as the Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon) and the Ascender.

That does not include
The above mentioned makes who manufacture models here without UAW workers (E. G. the Toyota Camry)
Hondas, Subarus, BMWs, Volvos and Mercedes Benz, who make a lot of models in the US without UAW workers

Source Here (http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2008/index.cfm)

[epo]

The Toyota Corolla and the Toyota Tacoma

The Mitsubishi Eclipse, Galant, Raider and Endeavor.

The Isuzu I-Series Pickup (essentially the same as the Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon) and the Ascender.

That does not include
The above mentioned makes who manufacture models here without UAW workers (E. G. the Toyota Camry)
Hondas, Subarus, BMWs, Volvos and Mercedes Benz, who make a lot of models in the US without UAW workers

Source Here (http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2008/index.cfm)

I'm so proud. It's like I'm watching my own children grow up before my eyes.......

[scottinnj]

Well said, Scott.
Additionally, it was not the assembly line workers who took the executive decisions that led to these companies being in such trouble.


One of my favorite examples of executive fuckups was the Cadillac Cimarron.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac-models/cimarron2.jpg

A little dated for the current discussion, but memorable.

It was a Chevy Cavalier with leather seats back in 1982. It even had the same 4 cylinder engine, something that Cadillac hadn't had in its lineup of engine packages since 1914.

If you're looking for something more recent, I give you the Pontiac Aztec:

http://www.lakelandgear.com/images/GM-truck-tents-napier/Aztec-truck-tent-na.jpg

You could get it with a tent, in case your boss made you pull an all-nighter at work. Prepare that powerpoint presentation and eat smores all at the same time! Or if you drank too much at the tailgate party, just sleep it off!

[scottinnj]

I'm so proud. It's like I'm watching my own children grow up before my eyes.......

We deal with facts here on this board, something you taught me very very well. I have never been lied to by you, HBox, Mojo or anyone else on the opposite side of the argument, and I have found from this board that the truth shall set you free.

[HeyGehry]

Admins!

[HeyGehry]

Admins!


My post makes no sense now. Sorry. There was a monster spam post preceeding mine. Please feel free to delete both of my posts here.

[scottinnj]

My post makes no sense now. Sorry. There was a monster spam post preceeding mine. Please feel free to delete both of my posts here.

You're only up to 54 at this posting. I'd hate to see you knocked down while so young.

[Gvac]

My post makes no sense now. Sorry. There was a monster spam post preceeding mine. Please feel free to delete both of my posts here.

When you see one of them, hit the "report" button on the lower left.

That's what I did, and a mod got rid of it.

[Recyclerz]

When you see one of them, hit the "report" button on the lower left.

That's what I did, and a mod got rid of it.

http://darmano.typepad.com/logic_emotion/images/2007/08/08/hero_2.jpg

Short of finding and returning a cell phone, there can be no more heroic act than GVAC has graced us with here. :clap::thumbup::king:

[chokes up] I'm sorry, I can't continue this post...
[weeps quietly]

[Gvac]

http://darmano.typepad.com/logic_emotion/images/2007/08/08/hero_2.jpg

Short of finding and returning a cell phone, there can be no more heroic act than GVAC has graced us with here. :clap::thumbup::king:

[chokes up] I'm sorry, I can't continue this post...
[weeps quietly]

With those smileys you should visit the "ZZZZZ" thread more often! :bye: :clap: :thumbup: :tongue: :laugh: :wink: :smoke:

[Twimmignonemy]

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