Should GM/Ford be allowed to fail?

[high fly]

Who killed the electric car?

I dunno, but the REA most definitely killed wind power. Not only is it a bald-faced lie to suggest that without Franklin Delano Christ commanding "let there be light," rural America would not have had electricity, but in fact, an unintended consequence of the government's actions (ignored, as they so often are, by statist zealots like yourself) was the utter destruction of small-scale renewable energy production.

Berkeley Daily Gazette - Jul 9, 1935
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=sRkiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S6YFAAAAIBAJ&dq=wind%20electricity&pg=2708%2C787843


Ignored by zealots such as yourself, is the fact that efforts like that in the partial newspaper article linked to were not providing electricity to 90% of rural America. It took a massive federal program to get the job done. That electricity not only improved the lives of individuals, it provided large numbers of jobs and contributed to expansion of industry in areas where the lack of infrastructure was prohibitive till then.
All I can see from the portion of the article was a description of some people who had a neat way to generate power, nothing about how Rural Electrification made them quit.




Oh...and about malaria?

100% attributable to impounding new reservoirs along the Tennessee Valley and giving mosquitoes such ample breeding ground.

Those reservoirs were not impounded when malaria epidemics were wiping people out in the thousands in various places.
Can you explain how impounding a reservoir in Tennessee cause a malaria epidemic 75 or so years previous in another part of the country?

You sure you want to debate the impact of the TVA?
I happen to be from that area and heard firtsthand from those who went through the Great Depression how FDRs policies affected people. It was common when I was growing up to see a portrait of FDR above the mantle of those folks' homes. When asked about it, the response was always a variation on "His policies saved us."

[WRESTLINGFAN]

FDR was a great man.



They dont think so



http://ts3397.k12.sd.us/Event/Japanese%20Internment%20Camp.%20Aftermath.jpg

[StanUpshaw]

Ignored by zealots such as yourself, is the fact that efforts like that in the partial newspaper article linked to were not providing electricity to 90% of rural America. It took a massive federal program to get the job done. That electricity not only improved the lives of individuals, it provided large numbers of jobs and contributed to expansion of industry in areas where the lack of infrastructure was prohibitive till then.
All I can see from the portion of the article was a description of some people who had a neat way to generate power, nothing about how Rural Electrification made them quit.






Those reservoirs were not impounded when malaria epidemics were wiping people out in the thousands in various places.
Can you explain how impounding a reservoir in Tennessee cause a malaria epidemic 75 or so years previous in another part of the country?

You sure you want to debate the impact of the TVA?
I happen to be from that area and heard firtsthand from those who went through the Great Depression how FDRs policies affected people. It was common when I was growing up to see a portrait of FDR above the mantle of those folks' homes. When asked about it, the response was always a variation on "His policies saved us."

Nope. (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=UxosAAAAIBAJ&sjid=IroEAAAAIBAJ&dq=wilson-dam%20malaria&pg=1001%2C3068616) The facts don't lie.

Propagandists do, which probably explains why your kin folk love FDR. Southerners are a worshipful breed. It doesn't surprise me that dogma is so readily swallowed.

[high fly]

Nope. (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=UxosAAAAIBAJ&sjid=IroEAAAAIBAJ&dq=wilson-dam%20malaria&pg=1001%2C3068616) The facts don't lie.

Propagandists do, which probably explains why your kin folk love FDR. Southerners are a worshipful breed. It doesn't surprise me that dogma is so readily swallowed.

Here are some facts that don't lie on the TVA:

In 1939, there was 70,700,000 ton-miles of traffic on the Tennessee River.
In 1945, there was 256,465,000 ton-miles of traffic.
In 1948, there was over 400,000,000 ton-miles of traffic.

The TVA led to the construction of grain terminals, storage facilities, elevators, oil company terminals and other industrial plants. Millions of dollars of flood damage was prevented.

The TVA required prefab housing and 5,000 units were built for Oak Ridge and Pasco Washington.

During World War II, the TVA supplied over 60% of the phosphorous used in bombs, tracer bullets, smoke bombs and other uses.
TVA supplied the Army with anhydrous ammonia, ammonium nitrate liquor and crystal.
TVA manufactured 228,500 tons of calcium carbide used to make synthetic rubber.
TVA supplied over 375,000 tons of phosphate and nitrate fertilizer to increase wartime food production and supplied 114,000 tons of fertilizer for Lend-Lease export.

Electric production from the TVA went from 970,000 kilowatts in June 1940 to over 2,200,000 kilowatts in June 1945.
¾ of the electricity produced by the TVA went into war production including ordnance plants, arsenals, air bases & production of aluminum, copper & heavy chemicals.

TVA provided the electricity to Oak Ridge atomic energy development.
TVA aluminum production made wartime construction of aircraft possible.

At the beginning of World War II, TVA was the 5th largest producer of energy, at the end of the war it was the largest.

In 1941, the TVA was providing electricity to 425,000 customers and brought in $15,125,380 in revenue; in 1948 it served over 900,000 customers and brought in $48,770,000 in revenue.

In 1940, TVA customers paid 2.11 cents per kilowatt-hour when the U.S. average was 3.91 cents.
In 1948, TVA residential customers paid 1.57 cents per kilowatt hour; the U.S. average was 3.03 cents.
Even though TVA customers used 67% more electricity than average customers in the rest of the U.S., their electric bill was 13% less.


Above statistics from “The Public Papers and Addresses of Franklin D. Roosevelt,” compiled by Samuel I. Rosenman (Harper & Brothers, 1950), pages 17-21


If you are done with propagandizing, some facts from you in rebuttal will be welcome, if you have any.

[StanUpshaw]

If you are done with propagandizing, some facts from you in rebuttal will be welcome, if you have any.

Silly goose! If I do that, you'll just ignore it and change the subject again.

Gish Gallop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duane_Gish)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Imagine the further damage FDR would have done if he completed a 4th term

[high fly]

Before World War II, GDP growth averaged over 8% a year.
There were a dozen or so quarters when GDP increased over 11% in that period.
Yeah, real damage there....

[high fly]

Silly goose! If I do that, you'll just ignore it and change the subject again.


Fine.
I win on the TVA.

[StanUpshaw]

Fine.
I win on the TVA.

Yep. In the exact same manner Duane Gish "wins" debates about creationism.

[high fly]

Yep. In the exact same manner Duane Gish "wins" debates about creationism.

My official stats outweigh your propaganda.
I'd say "nice try" only it wasn't.

[hanso]

OnStar Lets You Track Your Spouse for $0.12 a Day

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/03/onstart-lets-you-track-your-spouse-for-0-12-a-day/


Suspicious spouses used to have to shell out hundreds or thousands of dollars on private investigators to keep tabs on their significant other, but a new feature from General Motors’ OnStar division can do it for just over a dime a day.

Track dat cheatin ho

[PapaBear]

Any spouse who plans to cheat deserves to get caught, if they're too stupid not to demand access to their OnStar online account.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The leaders of the North Korean regime should work for GM. With their failed rocket they would fit in good building volts.

[spoon]

blah blah blah blah blah

same old wf

solid point as per the norm

[Furtherman]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/541317_441392532552930_108038612554992_1666300_125 1733354_n.jpg

[Crispy123]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/541317_441392532552930_108038612554992_1666300_125 1733354_n.jpg

Damn those socialists.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

When you have your debts wiped out and your tax liability eliminated of course theres money to hire.

This is not the market at work, Its government manipulation. Even with all the subsidies and other tax credits nobody wants a volt.


We are still out tens of billions of dollars because the stock is trading around $23

[Syd]

yet, there are jobs created and people aren't on unemployment insurance slowly dragging down communities that depend on employment

let me put it to you in a way that conservatives can understand: domino effect

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Taking taxpayer dollars to prop up an industry and to redistribute to their selected special interests is what progressives love.


KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS

[Furtherman]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH SOCAILISM!!!

Fixed.

[sailor]

Fixed.

He's a better speller than that. ;)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

He's a better speller than that. ;)

Better than him



http://dailypicksandflicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/get-a-brain-morans.jpg

[StanUpshaw]

yet, there are jobs created and people aren't on unemployment insurance slowly dragging down communities that depend on employment

let me put it to you in a way that conservatives can understand: domino effect

Pay people to dig holes, then pay more people to fill them up.

ECONOMY SOLVED

[Crispy123]

Pay people to dig holes, then pay more people to fill them up.

ECONOMY SOLVED

I disagree. We need to end our dependence on oil.

Heres an economy solution: pay people to go to school and then pay them more to do the things they learned in school such as engineering, repairing things that have been engineered, transportating people and things, lawyering, banking, internetting, etc.

Of course this schooling and medical coverage until employment would require 2-4 years of federal service in the Armed Forces, Peace Corps, Post Office, EPA or whatever.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Oh I see, So its up to the federal government, not the market to decide what fuels to use. Expand the military, we gotta fight more wars and produce more weapons you know, feed that military industrial complex Lets expand the fed even more by adding more people onto the balance sheet. Keynes would be so proud.

[Crispy123]

Oh I see, So its up to the federal government, not the market to decide what fuels to use.

Since a Socialist European Belgian living in France invented the internal combustion engine, yes.

[StanUpshaw]

I disagree. We need to end our dependence on oil.

Heres an economy solution: pay people to go to school and then pay them more to do the things they learned in school such as engineering, repairing things that have been engineered, transportating people and things, lawyering, banking, internetting, etc.

Of course this schooling and medical coverage until employment would require 2-4 years of federal service in the Armed Forces, Peace Corps, Post Office, EPA or whatever.

I'm won't waste much time responding, since I can't tell if this post is a joke or not.

I'll just ask this: Who is going to pay for all this spending? Why would you want to pay for more college graduates when we already have a surplus of them?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Pay for it? Easy, Lets just print more money and flush trillions more into the system. QE 3 Yeaaaa!!!!!

[Crispy123]

I'm won't waste much time responding, since I can't tell if this post is a joke or not.

I'll just ask this: Who is going to pay for all this spending? Why would you want to pay for more college graduates when we already have a surplus of them?

I didnt say college, tech school works too. And the payment part comes from the fed service, human capitol.

I didn't think skilled labour was what we had a surplus of. What i read is how we don't have enough pilots, atc, nurses, doctors, etc.

[StanUpshaw]

So only some degrees get paid for? Communications students need not apply?

[Crispy123]

So only some degrees get paid for? Communications students need not apply?

Is this the StanUpshaw plan? Why the hate for Communications?

[StanUpshaw]

Done thinking? Just want to deflect now?

[Crispy123]

Done thinking? Just want to deflect now?

Do you really not get the concept I am proposing? Have you ever played the game questions?

[StanUpshaw]

Do you really not get the concept I am proposing? Have you ever played the game questions?

Your concept is to magically educate kids who will then magically get jobs; "pay" for it by magically conscripting them into national service; all while magically reducing our dependence on oil.

Does that about sum it up?

[Crispy123]

Your concept is to magically educate kids who will then magically get jobs; "pay" for it by magically conscripting them into national service; all while magically reducing our dependence on oil.

Does that about sum it up?

All except for the magical part.

It would be more like actually educate kids, actually get them jobs, actually conscript them, and actually reduce our dependence on oil.

[StanUpshaw]

All except for the magical part.

It would be more like actually educate kids, actually get them jobs, actually conscript them, and actually reduce our dependence on oil.

They already have kids for 12 years and can't educate them. Why would another 4 change anything?


Ah yes...magic.

[Crispy123]

They already have kids for 12 years and can't educate them. Why would another 4 change anything?


Ah yes...magic.

I keep forgetting that according to you scientists also do tarot readings.

But I never said it had to be 4 years and I am willing to work on the plan with you Stanny. I agree the k-12 system needs to be reworked and that can be part of the Crispy/StanUpshaw plan.

Also, kids in Florida currently have the opportunity to graduate high school with damn near an AA. I find it highly unlikely that Florida is pioneering anything education related in America.

[StanUpshaw]

I keep forgetting that according to you scientists also do tarot readings.

But I never said it had to be 4 years and I am willing to work on the plan with you Stanny. I agree the k-12 system needs to be reworked and that can be part of the Crispy/StanUpshaw plan.

More deflection! You're so good at that.

[Recyclerz]

Taking taxpayer dollars to prop up an industry and to redistribute to their selected special interests is what progressives love.


KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS

Yahoo Finance: It's Official - Keynes was right. (http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/official-keynes-112244405.html)

If it is on the interwebs it must be true.

Hey Peter Schiff fans ------








FACE!


:wink:

[Crispy123]

More deflection! You're so good at that.

If you can't follow the convo, thats on you buddy.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yahoo Finance: It's Official - Keynes was right. (http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/official-keynes-112244405.html)

If it is on the interwebs it must be true.

Hey Peter Schiff fans ------








FACE!


:wink:

When getting bailed out by the IMF (United States) who needs austerity.

[Recyclerz]

When getting bailed out by the IMF (United States) who needs austerity.

You couldn't have read the linked article that quickly. I call shenanigans!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You couldn't have read the linked article that quickly. I call shenanigans!

Going thru it now.


After 50 years as a huge welfare continent of course short term austerity isnt going to solve anything.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

"Now, I'm not an economist, and I'm not born of a particular economic school that I've bet my life's work on, so I have observed the global economic events of the past five years with a fairly open mind."


It gets better, He mentions Krugman. Folks this is gonna be a fun article

[Syd]

Oh I see, So its up to the federal government, not the market to decide what fuels to use.

The market is only interested in what has the best profit margin for the next quarter. Longevity isn't part of a corporation's mandate, only profitability. Switching to a post-oil business model would kill the company because it would only be set up to operate in a world a decade from now.

I think the main reason I want to live till I am 90 or older is just so I have many, many years of pointing out how ridiculous people are for thinking that oil will just last forever or Han Solo is going to beam down and give us all cold fusion. The looming energy crises is going to suck , but at least I will get to laugh at people about it.

[spoon]

and i guess it's just ok to ignore the factor that those in power gain financially from keeping the status quo

do you really think the differences in auto technology growth and something less controlled like the internet is some coincidence? I know regulation here can be a factor as well, but it's the lesser one to say the least.

it takes investment and capital to make changes and advancements to your product and that draws from stock prices, earnings and of course ceo/corp salaries...why not milk it all it's worth and hand off the trainwreck, and hell move everything to the cheap labor sources for a few decades and sell out your own to act like you have any true business sense on the way.

[spoon]

why create/innovate when you can just reshuffle the deck and keep the status quo?

problem now is there are other OUTSIDE forces fucking your bullshit business model/cycle, so yah, the country has more problems than ever. the US pretty much set up this loss of economic dominance, based on individual greed and laziness. That's what happens when suits run the show, not the actual innovators. Take a look at those companies run by a suit versus someone with passion and innovation at his/her core. Jobs was an interesting mix, but his innovation surely outweighed his scumbag use of cheap labor and giving back...nah, he makes Gates look like a fucking saint and great boss.

[StanUpshaw]

The market is only interested in what has the best profit margin for the next quarter. Longevity isn't part of a corporation's mandate, only profitability. Switching to a post-oil business model would kill the company because it would only be set up to operate in a world a decade from now.

I think the main reason I want to live till I am 90 or older is just so I have many, many years of pointing out how ridiculous people are for thinking that oil will just last forever or Han Solo is going to beam down and give us all cold fusion. The looming energy crises is going to suck , but at least I will get to laugh at people about it.

Hey Sally Strawman...saying "the market is a better judge of technological adoption than the government" is not the same as saying "oil will just last forever"

[StanUpshaw]

and i guess it's just ok to ignore the factor that those in power gain financially from keeping the status quo

do you really think the differences in auto technology growth and something less controlled like the internet is some coincidence? I know regulation here can be a factor as well, but it's the lesser one to say the least.

it takes investment and capital to make changes and advancements to your product and that draws from stock prices, earnings and of course ceo/corp salaries...why not milk it all it's worth and hand off the trainwreck, and hell move everything to the cheap labor sources for a few decades and sell out your own to act like you have any true business sense on the way.

So what exactly are you saying here? Propping up a failed industry is protecting the status quo.

[spoon]

So what exactly are you saying here? Propping up a failed industry is protecting the status quo.

no, saving a needed industry that fell bc of what I spoke about above to protect a huge job sector in the US and hopefully one that adjusts from it's failed policy/direction

letting that fail was more detrimental than helping it out

we help business/subsidize business all the time, this time it was larger sure, but in a lump sum fashion and it's done a lot more good than bad...and it continues to get better

but like wf states, we should never make new tech platform cars like the volt bc the old model of status quo worked so well

[StanUpshaw]

no, saving a needed industry that fell bc of what I spoke about above to protect a huge job sector in the US and hopefully one that adjusts from it's failed policy/direction

letting that fail was more detrimental than helping it out

we help business/subsidize business all the time, this time it was larger sure, but in a lump sum fashion and it's done a lot more good than bad...and it continues to get better

but like wf states, we should never make new tech platform cars like the volt bc the old model of status quo worked so well

What sort of doublethink nonsense is this?

THEY MADE THE VOLT.
NO ONE WANTS IT.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

no, saving a needed industry that fell bc of what I spoke about above to protect a huge job sector in the US and hopefully one that adjusts from it's failed policy/direction

letting that fail was more detrimental than helping it out

we help business/subsidize business all the time, this time it was larger sure, but in a lump sum fashion and it's done a lot more good than bad...and it continues to get better

but like wf states, we should never make new tech platform cars like the volt bc the old model of status quo worked so well

If theres a demand for it then fine. I don't want tens of billions of tax dollars subsidizing it.

The government trying to influence supply/demand and prices always turns out a loser.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So what exactly are you saying here? Propping up a failed industry is protecting the status quo.

Status quo like Bundlers for the administration and their tons of failed green companies

[spoon]

What sort of doublethink nonsense is this?

THEY MADE THE VOLT.
NO ONE WANTS IT.

plenty want it, but you have to perfect the art of this model before it'll take off completely

you're talking a redo in the minds of the public for all their known life

it won't happen overnight, and it too is subsidized so you'd be a fool to not push into that market in a small way, as they actually have when put into perspective.

[spoon]

If theres a demand for it then fine. I don't want tens of billions of tax dollars subsidizing it.

The government trying to influence supply/demand and prices always turns out a loser.

or trying to direct our country towards a better model and away from our dependency on oil/foreign markets. the impacts on our society and country could be huge, financially, environmentally and politically. yet you truly think it's just about money and has no merit whatsoever for the US to attempt being a catalyst in this area? I find that hard to believe, but probably shouldn't.

[StanUpshaw]

or trying to direct our country towards a better model and away from our dependency on oil/foreign markets. the impacts on our society and country could be huge, financially, environmentally and politically. yet you truly think it's just about money and has no merit whatsoever for the US to attempt being a catalyst in this area? I find that hard to believe, but probably shouldn't.

The government doesn't know how to determine better models. They try, and we end up with shit like Solyndra and corn ethanol.

"But no, this time it will be different."

You can't be this fucking stupid.



ps...what do you mean by "attacks and demeaning bs"?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

or trying to direct our country towards a better model and away from our dependency on oil/foreign markets. the impacts on our society and country could be huge, financially, environmentally and politically. yet you truly think it's just about money and has no merit whatsoever for the US to attempt being a catalyst in this area? I find that hard to believe, but probably shouldn't.

In other words, state controlled capitalism. Known as Fascism.

[spoon]

The government doesn't know how to determine better models. They try, and we end up with shit like Solyndra and corn ethanol.

"But no, this time it will be different."

You can't be this fucking stupid.



ps...what do you mean by "attacks and demeaning bs"?

oh, bc I saind "but no, this time it will be different" right? Let's just stop trying all together right? Bc we should invest our money in none commodities like oil that need our fucking help raking in billions upon billions every quarter...good forward thinking there. You can't be that fucking stupid...prices need to stop being artificially low too, in order to help naturally spark some innovation.

yet again we have a discussion littered with disagreement turned into "you can't be this fucking stupid" and your a fascist nonsense. nice chatting with you both as per the norm.

[spoon]

In other words, state controlled capitalism. Known as Fascism.

controlled? sure thing WF, whatever you say....just go with whatever you want to make up

[StanUpshaw]

oh, bc I saind "but no, this time it will be different" right? Let's just stop trying all together right? Bc we should invest our money in none commodities like oil that need our fucking help raking in billions upon billions every quarter...good forward thinking there. You can't be that fucking stupid...prices need to stop being artificially low too, in order to help naturally spark some innovation.

yet again we have a discussion littered with disagreement turned into "you can't be this fucking stupid" and your a fascist nonsense. nice chatting with you both as per the norm.

You won't say it explicitly, because that would require a completeness of thought that you refuse to have. You're not having a discussion -- you're just repeating platitudes from the liberal hivemind, and instead of actually backing up any of your points, you just retreat and pretend it's because I'm being too mean.

[spoon]

You won't say it explicitly, because that would require a completeness of thought that you refuse to have. You're not having a discussion -- you're just repeating platitudes from the liberal hivemind, and instead of actually backing up any of your points, you just retreat and pretend it's because I'm being too mean.

Say what explicitly Stan? What exactly do you want outside of we disagree and you want some holy grail model where either of our takes are proven which is never completely possible.

hivemind...i just got stan/wf buzz word bingo!

speak for yourself too, bc the mean is no problem for me, it's just childish as you make your points in pathetic fashion...I can't help that you have to label everything like a fool too, bc I'm hardly some liberal, even if I agree here and there on things. Yet here's classic Stan, disagree = fool. Completeness of thought? Again, try subscribing to the very newsletter you're pushing buddy.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

controlled? sure thing WF, whatever you say....just go with whatever you want to make up

Yes controlled with price controls and trying to manipulate the basic laws of economics like supply and demand.

[spoon]

Yes controlled with price controls and trying to manipulate the basic laws of economics like supply and demand.

i'm for price controls now?

how quaint

[StanUpshaw]

Let's try this: Pick one point -- your best one -- and just defend it. No changing the subject, no taking your ball and going home.

[Syd]

Hey Sally Strawman...saying "the market is a better judge of technological adoption than the government" is not the same as saying "oil will just last forever"

Name one time the market is a better judge of technological adoption? The market goes to where ever the government R&D funds let them go. The market is only good at deciding where the cheapest possible place to produce goods for the best possible profit margin. Other than that, the market has no interest in anything else. Someone else will take care of it for it because it isn't profitable to progress.

[StanUpshaw]

Name one time the market is a better judge of technological adoption? The market goes to where ever the government R&D funds let them go. The market is only good at deciding where the cheapest possible place to produce goods for the best possible profit margin. Other than that, the market has no interest in anything else. Someone else will take care of it for it because it isn't profitable to progress.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Format_war

Yay! What do I win?

[Syd]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Format_war

Yay! What do I win?

all those things came courtesy of government R&D money. You win a grant! Also things like DC power or WiMAX or AM radio serve a distinct purpose still. The market didn't choose one, it chose both for different but similar purposes.

[IamFogHat]

I never post anything serious here, so let me be the first to say, poop in the mouth tastes like poopy poop.

[StanUpshaw]

all those things came courtesy of government R&D money. You win a grant! Also things like DC power or WiMAX or AM radio serve a distinct purpose still. The market didn't choose one, it chose both for different but similar purposes.

A little handwaving here...a bit of post hoc ergo propter hoc there...finish off with a dash of moving goal posts...and VOILA! A syd post is born!

[Bob Impact]

A little handwaving here...a bit of post hoc ergo propter hoc there...finish off with a dash of moving goal posts...and VOILA! A syd post is born!

Precisely, Syd you made a (admittedly salient) point, Stan answered it well, give credit where it's due.

Also, DC was the first type of transmitted power, but after Tesla was able to demonstrate that AC was significantly better adapted to transmission the market moved towards it's own best interest. In systems where transmission is not an issue (cars, boats, etc) or efficiency stipulated lower voltage to keep component size & heat down (small electronics) DC was used.

Edit: My point is - the market DID choose to move to AC power for transmission, after that choice DC was used where it made sense, but the choice was there none the less.

[spoon]

Precisely, Syd you made a (admittedly salient) point, Stan answered it well, give credit where it's due.

Also, DC was the first type of transmitted power, but after Tesla was able to demonstrate that AC was significantly better adapted to transmission the market moved towards it's own best interest. In systems where transmission is not an issue (cars, boats, etc) or efficiency stipulated lower voltage to keep component size & heat down (small electronics) DC was used.

Edit: My point is - the market DID choose to move to AC power for transmission, after that choice DC was used where it made sense, but the choice was there none the less.

AC was held back for YEARS by Edison and his cohorts in some very disgusting fashion too.

[Syd]

A little handwaving here...a bit of post hoc ergo propter hoc there...finish off with a dash of moving goal posts...and VOILA! A syd post is born!

and all you did was post a link of format wars -- not the market choosing the right format

was mp3 better than ogg? or was mp3 an easier way to make money

the market isn't "rational", the market is all about finding profits.

[Bob Impact]

and all you did was post a link of format wars -- not the market choosing the right format

was mp3 better than ogg? or was mp3 an easier way to make money

the market isn't "rational", the market is all about finding profits.

Profit based on the combination of factors that people desire/get the most utility out of, yes.

Imagine that.

[Syd]

Profit based on the combination of factors that people desire/get the most utility out of, yes.

Imagine that.

People desire the most? Wouldn't people desire safer DC power now that high voltage DC transmission is possible? Or does the market not care for the customers, but, rather, the bottom line.

[StanUpshaw]

People desire the most? Wouldn't people desire safer DC power now that high voltage DC transmission is possible? Or does the market not care for the customers, but, rather, the bottom line.

Massive infrastructure turnover costs money. Those costs get passed on to customers. Both the consumers AND the producers care about their respective bottom lines.

If customers demanded new infrastructure...you know, like fiber optic internet (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/technology/19fios.html?pagewanted=all)...the market would provide it.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Move over GM. The Japanese are Emperors again . Toyota has just become the #1 Automaker

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Why GM stock is being dumped


http://seekingalpha.com/article/587731-why-investors-are-selling-gm-like-crazy?source=yahoo

[Crispy123]

GM CEO defends auto industry bailout: It worked (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57433619/gm-ceo-defends-auto-industry-bailout-it-worked/)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GM CEO sounds like



http://activerain.com/image_store/uploads/4/6/6/8/7/ar123057154278664.jpg

[Crispy123]

WF sounds like:

http://www.mediaite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/fox-news-logo.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Success now means having your debt wiped out and years of tax abatements

[Crispy_Mobile]

Talking points. Hyperbole. Sticking head in sand.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Still waiting on that big dividend check ?

[spoon]

Still waiting on that big dividend check ?

Are you?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Are you?

I have a better shot of banging Sofia Vergara

[spoon]

you should tweet that gem

[spoon]

5 times and then use it in all 30 of your anti-Obama threads

[high fly]

GM CEO defends auto industry bailout: It worked (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57433619/gm-ceo-defends-auto-industry-bailout-it-worked/)


It did indeed.
Kinda wacky how many conservatives would have preferred those employees going on the dole instead of keeping their jobs and continuing to pay taxes.
In addition to the monetary benefits, there is the additional value of saving an industry that is an important part of American culture.
I like when Americans keep their jobs and companies rebound.

[StanUpshaw]

http://i.imgur.com/8lFFL.jpg

'MURICA

[spoon]

as opposed to what stan, fuck it?

[StanUpshaw]

as opposed to what stan, fuck it?

Fuck a company that ran itself into the ground? Yes, fuck them indeed!

If there's truly a future in the auto industry, then why are you worried about preserving a brand name? Let the other companies (that have proven themselves competent) buy out the shit ones. Plants and equipment don't just disappear...they'll be purchased by good companies who can make productive use of them. Failed industries can't be propped up forever. Better to purge the malinvestment early than to trudge further down a dead-end road.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The NY Times is a long standing institution should that be bailed out if it faces bankruptcy. I don't give a fuck about legacy you run a shit business model then you should restructure or die

[spoon]

Fuck a company that ran itself into the ground? Yes, fuck them indeed!

If there's truly a future in the auto industry, then why are you worried about preserving a brand name? Let the other companies (that have proven themselves competent) buy out the shit ones. Plants and equipment don't just disappear...they'll be purchased by good companies who can make productive use of them. Failed industries can't be propped up forever. Better to purge the malinvestment early than to trudge further down a dead-end road.

I get that, and in some, if not most instances it makes perfect sense. In this scenario, in this economy, in this field and based on the impact of failure here it was a good spot to intervene...especially since I don't see this as the same "dead-end road", but a needed restructure and refocus with a kick in the ass. The status quo isn't acceptable any longer, and truly wasn't for years, yet it was utilized with so much of our business models decades too long and outside companies took the lead in a big way while ours focused on profit margins and cheap changes versus true innovation. There is a difference in letting a restaurant chain die and be supplanted versus a worldwide automaker with deep penetration still all over the market regardless of said product woes at the time and even now.

[spoon]

The NY Times is a long standing institution should that be bailed out if it faces bankruptcy. I don't give a fuck about legacy you run a shit business model then you should restructure or die

Newspaper versus auto industry, sorry not the same.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Newspaper versus auto industry, sorry not the same.

So what does that mean? Youre for the federal gov't picking and choosing what lives and dies?

[spoon]

So what does that mean? Youre for the federal gov't picking and choosing what lives and dies?

No, you're picking what is in our best interest to aid based on what's best/needed for our best national interest.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No, you're picking what is in our best interest to aid based on what's best/needed for our best national interest.

At the rest of the country's expense?


In a nutshell GM bailout was socializing risk and privatizing profits and we will never see that money returned.

[Syd]

At the rest of the country's expense?


In a nutshell GM bailout was socializing risk and privatizing profits and we will never see that money returned.

You're still in your libertarian fantasy world that every man is an island -- there are repercussions beyond immediate job loss. Crime is linked to poverty, for example. Then job losses from the loss of people buying things due to lack of a job.

The whole Ayn Rand thing is fine for video games or something like that -- your Sims character loses its job, no big deal. It doesn't cause any Sims nearby to be hurt. In the real world, when people lose their jobs there are ramifications beyond simply the original job lost.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You're still in your libertarian fantasy world that every man is an island -- there are repercussions beyond immediate job loss. Crime is linked to poverty, for example. Then job losses from the loss of people buying things due to lack of a job.

The whole Ayn Rand thing is fine for video games or something like that -- your Sims character loses its job, no big deal. It doesn't cause any Sims nearby to be hurt. In the real world, when people lose their jobs there are ramifications beyond simply the original job lost.

The car companies would have still been able to operate during a bankruptcy, I dont think there would be some sort of post apacolyptic world where there would be gangs of people raping and pillaging

[spoon]

The car companies would have still been able to operate during a bankruptcy, I dont think there would be some sort of post apacolyptic world where there would be gangs of people raping and pillaging

yes, God knows Detroit is much better than that and surely this would have helped the situation

[StanUpshaw]

Can someone compile a comprehensive list of all the companies that are too big to fail? It's hard to keep track which corporations I'm supposed to blindly cheerlead and which ones I'm supposed to blindly revile.

[spoon]

I'll start, GM yes, NY Times no.

Updates as needed.

[StanUpshaw]

Also:

Am I supposed to love the auto industry because of jawrbs, or am I supposed to hate them because they're ruining the planet?

I don't know how you guys do it...the progressive agenda is something akin to schizophrenia.

[StanUpshaw]

Obama and GM Cook the Books (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/300075/obama-and-gm-cook-books-john-lott-jr#)
Would you hire President Obama as your financial adviser? Three years ago his administration invested more than $100 billion in taxpayer money to bail out General Motors. On Tuesday, the entire company, not just what the government owns, was worth less than $34 billion. By anyone’s definition, that investment is a glaring failure. Yet over the last few days the Obama campaign, in a $25 million marketing blitz, has flooded the airwaves with ads in battleground states, claiming the bailout should be counted a rousing success.

Unfortunately, assertions that “all loans have been repaid to the federal government,” that the bailout “saved more than one million American jobs,” that “U.S. automakers are hiring hundreds of thousands of new workers,” that GM is again the “number-one automaker” — all are based on creative accounting.

The money the government spent adds up quickly: $50 billion in TARP bailout funds, a special exemption waiving payment of $45.4 billion in taxes on future profits, an exemption for all product liability on cars sold before the bailout, $360 million in stimulus funds, and the $7,500 tax credit for those who buy the Chevy Volt. GM’s share of other programs is harder to quantify but includes, for example, some of the $15.2 billion that went to Cash for Clunkers. Those costs are in addition to the billions taken from GM’s bondholders by the Obama administration.

A look at the accounting shows the trouble with contentions that much of the TARP money is getting paid back. The Obama administration compares the $50 billion in direct bailout funds with the price it will eventually be able to get for selling the GM stock it owns. But that assumes that the stock price won’t reflect government subsidies, including GM’s exemption from paying $45 billion in taxes. By the Obama administration’s logic, if the stimulus grants to TARP recipients were simply large enough, all the TARP money could be paid.
Claims that GM paid back its TARP loan are true but misleading. President Obama clearly wants to create the impression that all the money given to the auto companies has been paid back. But the $6.7 billion loan to GM was just a tiny fraction of the money given to it. As TARP special inspector general Neil Barofsky explained, GM used “other TARP money” to pay off the loan.

So what about President Obama’s boast in a White House speech in late April that the bailout “saved probably a million jobs” and that “GM is now the number-one automaker again in the world”?

The “million jobs” contention is quite a stretch. Before filing for bankruptcy in July 2009, GM had 91,000 employees in the United States. You can reach a 400,000 total by assuming that all of GM’s jobs, as well as all the jobs of its parts suppliers and car dealers, would have been lost. Last year, employment in the entire automotive industry in the U.S. (counting Ford, Toyota, and other companies and their suppliers, in addition to GM and Chrysler) was only 717,000.

Obama’s economic advisers told him during an April 2009 meeting that job losses in the auto industry would be only a fraction — 10 to 20 percent — of these claimed numbers, even for the much weaker Chrysler. The advisers reported the obvious: Bankruptcy would not kill all jobs at GM and, even with cutbacks, suppliers would pick up other work. But Obama keeps using numbers that his own advisers told him were wrong.

Even saving 20 percent of 400,000 comes at quite a cost — at least $780,000 per job. How many workers would have been willing to quit working for GM for a $400,000 severance payment?

The “number-one automaker” assertion is no more accurate. Obama’s sales totals include 1.2 million mostly cheap commercial vehicles built by China’s Wuling, a company in which GM owns a small stake, and it excludes sales by vehicle makers in which Volkswagen owns a majority share. Fortune magazine lists GM’s revenue as smaller than Toyota’s and Volkswagen’s.

The only real winners from the GM bailout were unions, which were protected from pay cuts, from losing their right to overtime pay after less than 40 hours a week, and from cuts to their extremely generous benefits. They faced only minor tweaks in their inefficient union work rules.

As for “hundreds of thousands of new workers,” the truth is closer to a tenth of that.

Having just $34 billion to show after a $100 billion-plus investment would get a chief executive of any private company fired. Unfortunately, Obama does not seem to understand how this money has been wasted.

What's that you say? The CEO says the company he runs is the bee's knees?

Well that's good enough for me!

[Adolf]

Should GM/Ford be allowed to fail?

of course

[StanUpshaw]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/J1c7Q7eF0Cc#t=21s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Obama and GM Cook the Books (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/300075/obama-and-gm-cook-books-john-lott-jr#)


What's that you say? The CEO says the company he runs is the bee's knees?

Well that's good enough for me!

Why do you hate 'Muuuuuuuuurican workers?

[Syd]

The car companies would have still been able to operate during a bankruptcy, I dont think there would be some sort of post apacolyptic world where there would be gangs of people raping and pillaging

No, they'd have been sold off Romney style to the highest bidder, permanently stopping any profit from those companies from ever coming back to America again. Look at what happened to the British car industry -- India, China and Malaysia.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Before the bailout Chrysler was owned by a private equity group and still went into bankruptcy. Not all takeovers result in successes. Bain had their share of failures too.

[StanUpshaw]

No, they'd have been sold off Romney style to the highest bidder, permanently stopping any profit from those companies from ever coming back to America again. Look at what happened to the British car industry -- India, China and Malaysia.

Fuck those rice niggers, am i rite?

American profits (actually $60 billion in losses) for good old American whites.

[spoon]

Before the bailout Chrysler was owned by a private equity group and still went into bankruptcy. Not all takeovers result in successes. Bain had their share of failures too.

share? they failed A LOT but still made their profits regardless

[Crispy123]

I'll start, GM yes, NY Times no.

Updates as needed.

Its not the black and white issue that the fox newsies want to paint it as and its pointless to get into that debate with them. President Obama did the right thing, at that moment in time, with the circumstances the country was left in. Period.

GM is alive and Osama bin Laden isn't.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No mention of violating bankruptcy laws and private property rights while rewarding his handlers in the UAW and taxpayers not getting money back

Again having an Arab shot in the face still hasn't improved the economy and GM is on life support via a gun to taxpayers

[Crispy123]

we got it foxy fan, Pres Obama is corrupt and can't do anything right.

[StanUpshaw]

we got it foxy fan, Pres Obama is corrupt and can't do anything right.

FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I would not want you as my portfolio manager or investment advisor

[spoon]

It really is funny how WF will twist any fucking thing into being the wrong move bc he immerses himself in Fox, ABC radio, the drudge report and all that biased reporting and it has basically no neutral value in reporting at all. It'd be as if I make all my posts based on MSNB (which I NEVER watch) and Bill Maher (which I DO enjoy). The fact is, I listen to Fox and ABC more than the left currents in the media (in before all media is left) and form my opinions weighing both sides. Those stories and takes from the right are usually dripping with anger, racism and come from a very simplistic level usually MEANT to be divisive. I'm not saying it doesn't happen the other way either, just that it's dominant from the right, not to mention the control or hijacking from their religious sect.

[Crispy123]

O is my schtick getting old and annoying stanny??? :innocent::innocent::innocent:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Wrong Crispy!!!!


I actually go to zerohedge ,seeking alpha , reason and other outlets. Fox and those other outlets are bastions of neocons obsessed with starting the next war

[Crispy123]

Wrong Crispy!!!!


I actually go to zerohedge ,seeking alpha , reason and other outlets. Fox and those other outlets are bastions of neocons obsessed with starting the next war

Sure, maybe you do, but I will not listen to your argument, agree with anything YOUR side of the isle proposes, or change my opinion. Ever.

FoxnewsFan since day1 :bye:

[spoon]

Wrong Crispy!!!!


I actually go to zerohedge ,seeking alpha , reason and other outlets. Fox and those other outlets are bastions of neocons obsessed with starting the next war

Being that those are quite linked in as well, with a give and take with said orgs, it's not so different in the end even IF you were being completely truthful. I have my doubts, as 90% of your "jokes" and headlines match up perfectly. It'd be one thing if you had other angles on it I haven't heard like Stan usually does proving either other sources, research and actual independent thought. You are pretty much in lock step with the very orgs you claim no ties to, which I find very hard to believe.

[StanUpshaw]

Sure, maybe you do, but I will not listen to your argument, agree with anything YOUR side of the isle proposes, or change my opinion. Ever.

FoxnewsFan since day1 :bye:

You guys live on an isle? And it's split down the middle like Peter & Bobby's room?

[spoon]

I highly doubt you line up with much on zerohedge though in the end. I guess it may link to the GSachs flash trading and your disdain for any company linked to Obama in any way. Yet I highly see you as being on that side of the fence in this overall wall street rundown. I may be wrong, but I don't see you lining up here much outside of that one issue linked to the site.

[spoon]

You guys live on an isle? And it's split down the middle like Peter & Bobby's room?

painter's tape works best and can easily be removed when the dispute ends...which it never will

fuck any compromise! am I right WF/Mourdock?!

[Crispy123]

You guys live on an isle? And it's split down the middle like Peter & Bobby's room?

yes. gubbment is bad. immigrants is bad. obamas is bad. taxes is bad. abortions is bad. muslims is bad.

come on over and visit sometime.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How many times must I say. I do not want Iran bombed by US warplanes. Must I say that in Farsi?


The sites I use that I mentioned are independent of Fox et al

I also happen to know economics on a micro and macro level and based on my readings the GM bailout has failed. We are not in the black and will never recoup those losses

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Read deeper and quit going by the headlines about GMs profits and see why they are bogus and a result of accounting schemes and the fact that their debts were erased and they pay no corporate tax thru an abatement

Also I see more foreign cars on the road than GM vehicles. Most of the cop cars are Ford crown vics

[StanUpshaw]

yes. gubbment is violence. immigrants is free. obamas is gubbment. taxes is theft. abortions is bad. muslims is silly.

come on over and visit sometime.

Sounds like paradise!

[spoon]

How many times must I say. I do not want Iran bombed by US warplanes. Must I say that in Farsi?


The sites I use that I mentioned are independent of Fox et al

I also happen to know economics on a micro and macro level and based on my readings the GM bailout has failed. We are not in the black and will never recoup those losses

well one would think you are in that sector based on the alpha and hhog sites, but you're not ACTUALLY on wall street I would assume. I don't say that in a negative way either, merely for reference and that you do seemingly have to keep tabs on said information, but is it for work or hobby? And let's not act like alpha isn't linked to an ideology linked to wall street and very in line with a certain way of thinking. Hedge is different, more rogue influence or even watchdog type site linked to anonymous sources and has already caused change in the way ws works, just not in the way they wanted or expected (GS protected in the end).

[spoon]

How many times must I say. I do not want Iran bombed by US warplanes. Must I say that in Farsi?


The sites I use that I mentioned are independent of Fox et al

I also happen to know economics on a micro and macro level and based on my readings the GM bailout has failed. We are not in the black and will never recoup those losses

nobody said you wanted iran bombed, and neither does Fox outright (outside of a few asshole pundits on shows to do their dirty work I guess)

Independent financially, I guess, but tied into a philosophy on markets, ABSOLUTELY with alpha. Reason, if it's the mag, is a little different, but the right uses them when their ideology lines up with limited/no gov whenever possible/answer for all our woes.

you simplify the gm bailout too much and look past so many other factors, much less sell it's recovery and direction short. there are plenty in finance the disagree with you, and some that do agree...I'll say that it looks good thus far, yet is WAY too early to lock in on one side or the other as things like this need years to play out.

[Crispy123]

Sounds like paradise!

it is.

http://machetera.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/091808_snake_eyes_dice_1_300.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

nobody said you wanted iran bombed, and neither does Fox outright (outside of a few asshole pundits on shows to do their dirty work I guess)

Independent financially, I guess, but tied into a philosophy on markets, ABSOLUTELY with alpha. Reason, if it's the mag, is a little different, but the right uses them when their ideology lines up with limited/no gov whenever possible/answer for all our woes.

you simplify the gm bailout too much and look past so many other factors, much less sell it's recovery and direction short. there are plenty in finance the disagree with you, and some that do agree...I'll say that it looks good thus far, yet is WAY too early to lock in on one side or the other as things like this need years to play out.

Reason is more of a libertarian publication/website.


How is the GM bailout in a recovery when the feds still own 60% of GM and the stock is trading well below its IPO. How much more time do you want to give GM? Its been 3 years since the bailout and they are still running a bad business model, jobs have been outsourced to China and Mexico and GM Europe is in the red.

[StanUpshaw]

Reason is the hip Cato
Cato is the evil Mises
Mises is the sole hope for humanity

[Syd]

fuck what happened to CATO, now all their good work in the past is going to be shit because of how horribly tainted their reputation is

[StanUpshaw]

I don't think anything's really changed...people just know the Koch name now.

[Jujubees2]

Reason is the hip Cato
Cato is the evil Mises
Mises is the sole hope for humanity

I don't think he was all that hip but he sure could be funny sometimes.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTax9XFEFki_N5NNTO-SkGaM-nmMMZtljRyl5v03cj2a4oPeA6s

[Syd]

I don't think anything's really changed...people just know the Koch name now.

They tossed most of the little l libertarians there and replaced them with run of the mill Republicans.

[high fly]

I also happen to know economics on a micro and macro level and based on my readings the GM bailout has failed. We are not in the black and will never recoup those losses


Really?
Give us the numbers of how much we have lost to date compared to the cost of letting those companies go under, paying out unemployment and other entitlements to the unemployed, the impact of that on the local economies where auto industry businesses are located across the country, as well as the losses to the rest of industry that relies on just-in-time stocking of parts that would have been disrupted had those auto companies shut down.
Many other industries rely on goods trucked around the country, and shutting down production of parts for even a brief period would have led to a certain amount of disruption in shipping other goods. Of course, since you know economics on a macro level, you already have worked that impact on other businesses out, right?
let us see how you factor those things, including the profits the companies are making and where those profits are going.

Let us see those numbers and how well you "know" economics, and also see whether there are any other factors you are leaving out and need to be reminded of.
But someone who "knows" micro and macro economics will cover all the bases, .........unless their knowledge is not so complete.


Numbers, please, on all the macro and micro impacts of allowing the auto companies to fail.....

[high fly]

you simplify the gm bailout too much and look past so many other factors, much less sell it's recovery and direction short. there are plenty in finance the disagree with you, and some that do agree...I'll say that it looks good thus far, yet is WAY too early to lock in on one side or the other as things like this need years to play out.


Indeed.
Part of the problem comes from those who labor under the notion that the government has to operate like a business, and have the same results as a business does.
But the government does a lot of things that are not profitable in order to service the needs of our people.
Establishing electrical power grids through rural America is an example. So is the postal service. Highways, tunnels, dams, waterways, bridges and other infrastructure are built and maintained often without being paid for directly by taxes or user fees.
The military operates at a loss and will continue to do so, even if we go back to privateering.
The government does not, and should not only do things that turn a profit, which is where the focus of business is. The government should do things that are right in meeting the needs of our people, even if the expense is more than the return.

Along with this is the false notion that a person who has been successful in business will automatically be successful in politics in terms of economic policy. Being a successful CEO does not necessarily translate into being a good president because they face very different sets of circumstances and the extent of their authority is different, too. A good CEO does not have to spend a lot of time cooperating and compromising with competing companies the way presidents frequently are required to do in working with the other branches of government and foreign countries.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Really?
Give us the numbers of how much we have lost to date compared to the cost of letting those companies go under, paying out unemployment and other entitlements to the unemployed, the impact of that on the local economies where auto industry businesses are located across the country, as well as the losses to the rest of industry that relies on just-in-time stocking of parts that would have been disrupted had those auto companies shut down.
Many other industries rely on goods trucked around the country, and shutting down production of parts for even a brief period would have led to a certain amount of disruption in shipping other goods. Of course, since you know economics on a macro level, you already have worked that impact on other businesses out, right?
let us see how you factor those things, including the profits the companies are making and where those profits are going.

Let us see those numbers and how well you "know" economics, and also see whether there are any other factors you are leaving out and need to be reminded of.
But someone who "knows" micro and macro economics will cover all the bases, .........unless their knowledge is not so complete.


Numbers, please, on all the macro and micro impacts of allowing the auto companies to fail.....


Some estimates have were that there were as much as 80,000 jobs lost due to the bailout, You are using a theory if GM and Chrysler just closed shop and died. Sure there would have been massive losses of jobs but Ive stated that GM and Chrysler could have operated during a proper bankruptcy and reorg. It wouldnt have to go to total liquidation.


The secondary companies like parts and suppliers could still operate. This was not a proper bankruptcy. It was a payoff to the UAW and a big fuck you to the bondholders.


The end result is a company with a continued bad business model, tens of billions still owed to taxpayers and 500 million shares still owned by the feds about 60% of the company


The other companies could have taken over, I dont give a fuck that Chevy wouldnt have been around but if Ford or Honda moved in they could have employed those former GM employees.

Flush the shit companies out and let the successful ones crank out better cars on those assembly lines.

Look at the latest quote from the governments (our) investment.


http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=gm

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://www.independentsentinel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/GM-Shell-Game51.jpg

[high fly]

What estimates?
not seeing any numbers, or solid sources that reflect what the majority of major economists believe, nor am I seeing any of my other questions addressed the way someone who "knows macro and micro economics" would. Somehow I have a feeling you don't have anything to back your contention, not like what one would get from a major figure in the world of economics. They wait till they have all sorts of facts, stats, can show trends, give hard numbers, examples from the past, and have many solid sources upon which their conclusions were drawn.

It is noted that the profanity emerges when solid fact-based arguments are not to be offered.

To imagine those companies would have continued to operate production of parts and keep them supplied across the country just does not comport with reality, or indicate "know" -ing how macro or micro economics work. Even a short-term disruption would have rippled through the economy in a way that anyone who "knows macro and micro economics" would be able to describe and would have factored in and would be able to provide numbers instead of vague statements.

Someone who "knows micro and macro economics" would have also factored in the costs of all those auto workers going on support, as well as the impact on the local economies, and would have some numbers and sources upon which to base an opinion, rather than mere profanity.
Additionally, one who "knows micro and macro economics" would factor in the overall economy at the time, including the trouble the financial industry was in, before acting as if the money would have been on hand for those companies to avoid shutting down.
One who "knows micro and macro economics" would be ready to show outlays and income of those companies at the time and would show what would replace those revenue streams....in doillars and cents, not in vague, general statements.



For some strange reason I am being reminded of claims of what an expert on economics Lyndon LaRouche was purported to be......



EDIT: while writing this post, I notice you posted that chart.
I also notice no reference to where you got it. Plagiarism is to be avoided, as it reflects poorly upon the one stealing another's intellectual property and passing it off as their own.
It is also incomplete, hardly what one would expect from someone who "knows micro and macro economics."

[StanUpshaw]

It's that time of the month...high fly spams all the politics threads.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What are the metrics of jobs saved? How do you create metrics for that, The lines of the auto industry being rescued is at the expense of the taxpayers. Again other companies could have come in and taken over those factories. Why should I be forced via barrel of a gun to be an involuntary investor of a company who had a bad business model which was propped up by violating bankruptcy laws?


There could also be numbers and estimates of a proper bankruptcy and reorganization, but hell we gotta pick winners and losers. Politicians have to pay back their handlers.


Using the military is a false equivilancy. What is the free markets main goal before anything else? Its to make a profit.

[high fly]

What are the metrics of jobs saved? How do you create metrics for that, The lines of the auto industry being rescued is at the expense of the taxpayers.

Someone who "knows micro and macro economics" would have those answers.
Such a one would also know to watch how the money flows, instead of just one segment.
In this case, the money goes from the taxpayers to the auto companies to their employees and others they deal with and continues coursing through the economy, being taxed all along the way.
Someone who "knows micro and macro economics" would be able to show all that because failure to do so tends to cause one to come to conclusions based on partial data.


Again other companies could have come in and taken over those factories.

Lots of things "could" happen. Someone who "knows micro and macro economics" would know to look at the context in terms of availability of financing at a time when major financial institutions were going under and the worst recession since the Great Depression was taking place. The stock market was plunging and liquidity was being eaten up in company after company struggling to weather the storm.
But somehow I don't see the context reflected in your vague, unsubstantiated claim.


Why should I be forced via barrel of a gun to be an involuntary investor of a company who had a bad business model which was propped up by violating bankruptcy laws?


HUH?
They have to point a gun at you in order for you to pay taxes?
The U.S. government frequently spends money on things large numbers of citizens do not want their money going to. Like spending trillions of dollars and thousands of lives to invest in a country like Iraq, give it a constitution based on the Koran and let the Shiites have the place.
We have had to buy weapons systems that will never be used, we had to pay over $125 billion to bail out savings and loans that went under thanks to deregulation. We bailed out Chrysler in the 80s and New York City, too. We have propped up foreign dictators, funds have been spent all kinds of crazy ways you or I don't like.
But to directly answer your question, you have to obey the tax laws.
You can gripe all you want, speak out, organize, run for office, do whatever you want, but in the end you have to pay your taxes.
And when you pay those taxes, there will be many things that money goes to you do not like.
There will be many things that money gores to that other people will like.
I am not happy that my tax dollars have to be spent to pay someone to go to wherever you are and point a gun at you in order for you to pay your taxes.


There could also be numbers and estimates of a proper bankruptcy and reorganization, but hell we gotta pick winners and losers. Politicians have to pay back their handlers.

There "could" be lots of things.
The American people have won in this case.
Our auto industry is coming back and a valuable part of our culture has been preserved. There is a value that can't be measured in such things, but a value nonetheless.

You "could" address the points I made and post some numbers and stats instead of these vague generalities, the way someone who really "knows micro and macro economics" would.
Any time I have read what someone generally accepted to have the sort of credential you claim, whether it is someone like Stiglitz on the left or Mankiw on the right, they have all sorts of numbers and stats to support their opinion.
You don't.



Using the military is a false equivilancy. What is the free markets main goal before anything else? Its to make a profit.


Using the free market to judge what government does is a false equivalency, too.
As I pointed out, above, the government does not do things with a profit motive. The government operates with different goals, different standards, and with different methods than business. It does what citizens need, regardless of whether there is any profit.
Rural electrification is an example.
The national stockpile of medicines to use in case of a nuclear, biological or chemical attack causing massive casualties is another.
That reminds me - after 9/11, the government gave tens of billions to the airline industry and new York City. Was that ever paid back? if not, are you just as angry about it?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You cant get an exact number and this is flawed because taxpayers had no say in this and again federal bankruptcy laws were violated. GM and Detroit can claim whatever they want and tout ithat it was a success even though it wasnt but it was at the expense of 49 other states.



There was cash available as the banks were handed 700 billion dollars, Once again the feds picked winners and losers as Lehman died but the auto companies were handed 60 billion dollars, their debts were erased and they received tax abatements. Is it governments role to pick which companies survive?


Youre not going to get an argument from me about the useless military adventures and occupations but why keep throwing money everywhere and hoping it works. Thats a problem of the feds, throw money at everything to solve a problem. Give money to corporate farms for ethanol. Federal taxes should only be paid for the 18 enumarated powers in article 1 section 8



How did the American person win when GM is trading at $21 a share and at least a 24 billion dollar loss? Have you received your dividend check yet? Toyota is now once again the worlds largest automaker. The only winners are the UAW




The Government wastes money because it can just print more without concern of inflation. With no hard assets to back up the currency you have an out of control federal reserve and now we are monetizing the debt.


The govt also gave tens of billions to states in Big sky country. Again an example of them just throwing money around,

[Bob Impact]

HUH?
They have to point a gun at you in order for you to pay taxes?

The government has the exclusive right to put you in jail if you refuse to pay taxes. "Point of a gun" is a reference to that and nothing more Larry Literal.


Using the free market to judge what government does is a false equivalency, too.
As I pointed out, above, the government does not do things with a profit motive. The government operates with different goals, different standards, and with different methods than business. It does what citizens need, regardless of whether there is any profit.

This is an extraordinarily optimistic viewpoint.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Citizens need a lot of things but does that lie solely to the federal government?

[high fly]

You cant get an exact number and this is flawed because taxpayers had no say in this and again federal bankruptcy laws were violated. GM and Detroit can claim whatever they want and tout ithat it was a success even though it wasnt but it was at the expense of 49 other states.

The auto industry operates in more than one state. Manufacturing, dealers, distributors, retailers of their products can be found in more than one state.
No, really, I'm not kidding. They have facilities of various kinds all over the place.

There was cash available as the banks were handed 700 billion dollars,

Cash available to whom?
No one was stepping forward seeking to purchase the companies, and those banks did not pool those funds. So citing the total given to them without taking note of the circumstances is a boner anyone who "knows macro and micro economics" would avoid. For one, income to an entire industry does not reflect income to a particular institution, and failing to account for outlays at the same time one looks at income is another fundamental flaw taught in "macro and micro economics 101".
Can you name one that had enough left over to lend to a prospective buyer seeking to buy?

Again, despite the claim you "know micro and macro economics", you fail to include the context of the time. The stock market was plunging, lending institutions were on the ropes or going under, companies and potential investors were in dire straights, and a large clot of Republicans were denying we were even in a recession.


Youre not going to get an argument from me about the useless military adventures and occupations

It was used as an example of how money is spent. The point was the government seldom spends large sums on anything that is not opposed by someone, and frequently large numbers of people are against whatever it is the money is going to.

but why keep throwing money everywhere and hoping it works. Thats a problem of the feds, throw money at everything to solve a problem.

Yes, most problems require more than good wishes to solve them. It took spending of large sums to take us from being a mostly illiterate country to one that is mostly literate. It took large sums of money to install and maintain our interstate highway system. It took spending large amounts of money to build Hoover Dam and the TVA.
We got our Constitution because of the need for the federal government to embark on large-scale public spending that was not possible under the Articles of Confederation. George Washington called people to a conference at Mount Vernon to, among other things, get large public works projects like canals and locks to the west built. This got the ball rolling that culminated in our Constitution.
Small, limited government failed and one that could throw money at large public works projects was needed, and that is what they established.


Someone who "knows macro and micro economics" would be aware that those funds went into the pockets of American citizens and that the economy overall benefits when larger amounts of money flows through it.
Large scale federal spending put millions of starving, unemployed Americans to work as we recovered from the Great Depression, to take an example. Those people were put to work in camps scattered all over the place building roads, bridges, sanitation systems, dams, levees, parks, schools and many other things. Those Americans in turn spent the money purchasing food and other goods and services. When FDR took office, GDP growth was a negative 8% and the New Deal did a lot toward turning that around to over 8% growth the rest of the decade. We hear how bad things were then, and they were; not because the economy wasn't growing but because the hole it was put in by the Republicans was so deep that despite growth the half of which has not been seen since, we were not out of the mess by the time World War II arrived, though much progress had been achieved.

[high fly]

Citizens need a lot of things but does that lie solely to the federal government?

No.
Private charities do a great deal of good in this country toward helping the less fortunate and it would be great if they took care of them all. But they don't. Neither do the states. So the federal government has to step in to meet the need.
It would be preferable if the private sector, local or state governments took care of a lot the federal government does, but they do not.
When it comes to the ratio of how much goes into the federal treasury per person and how much federal dollars are spent, per person, red states lead the way at sucking hardest on federal teat.
Texas and Mississippi lead the way.
In general, red states lean on revenue being redistributed from blue states because red states tend to be poorer.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Oh I didnt know that about the Auto industry operating outside f Detroit, Thanks for the geography lesson, Other industries go thru bankruptcy like the airlines do and they rely on outside sources as well.





Cash was available via the TARP bailout. There were banks that didnt even need bailout funds but were forced to take them. GM Could have gone thru the proper chapter 11 bankruptcy and emerged as a leaner company and fully reorganized. However the administration violated these laws and also private property rights, The bailout of 1981 of Chrysler is mentioned, but almost 30 years later it had to be bailed out again at a 1 billion dollar loss to taxpayers, and GM will eventually will go that same route




.


Ah yes, bring up the failed policies of the new deal prolonged the depression, thanks to the NIRA by canning antitrust acts and allow industries to raise prices and reduce competition. These were in industries from farming to steel production, prices and wages were artifically raised by the NIRA. NIRA was made unconstitutional in the mid 30's


In the late 1930s the depression was more prolonged thru tax hikes and again raising wages artificially. FDR's own Treasury secretary advised against more spending and Keynesian philosophies

[Syd]

so what fixed the depression then? WW2? Because there may have been a bit of government spending involved there.

[A.J.]

In the late 1930s the depression was more prolonged thru tax hikes and again raising wages artificially. FDR's own Treasury secretary advised against more spending and Keynesian philosophies

And he was a Jew so who would know better?

[high fly]

Ah yes, bring up the failed policies of the new deal prolonged the depression, thanks to the NIRA by canning antitrust acts and allow industries to raise prices and reduce competition. These were in industries from farming to steel production, prices and wages were artifically raised by the NIRA. NIRA was made unconstitutional in the mid 30's

GDP growth of over 8%, which has not been equalled since hardly consists of failure. When we consider that FDR took office with a negative 8.3% GDP growth, and GDP growth in FDR's first term was 8.72%. The accomplishments of his program become even more apparent. From 1933 to the next-to-last quarter of 1941, there were 13 quarters where GDP increased over 11%; in 9 of those quarters the increase was over 20%.
By contrast, since WWII, there have been no such increases over 20%.
During Truman’s second term there were two such increases over 15% and during Carter’s, one.
Since WWII, there have been 10 such GDP increases between 10 and 15%, two during Truman’s second term, one in each of Eisenhower’s terms, three during Johnson’s term, one during each of Nixon’s terms, and one during Carter’s.
Your inability to point to any other policy producing superior indicates default on the issue.

Millions were put to work, funds expended coursed through the economy, infrastructure was built that made far greater growth possible decades later, agriculture became mechanized to a far greater degree increasing production and land protected by levees made more land available for cultivation. I grew up in the Deep South among those directly affected by New Deal policies and they revered FDR precisely because of the success of so many of those policies in driving up wages, increasing production and making living conditions better. Putting those people to work dramatically decreased the numbers of those who would have otherwise flocked to cities putting even greater pressure on local governments already straining to keep others alive.


In the late 1930s the depression was more prolonged thru tax hikes and again raising wages artificially. FDR's own Treasury secretary advised against more spending and Keynesian philosophies

The Great Depression ended in 1933.
You have been lied to and reduced to theory, rather than concrete examples of where what you espouse has produced the results that, to date, are imaginary.
When Roosevelt acquiesced to pressure from the right and reduced spending and taxes, the recession of 1938 followed.

[StanUpshaw]

What possible criteria could there be for you to deem the GM bailout a failure?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How is the Obama administration going to spin this? I wonder if they will tout the bailout a success at the Convention


http://www.ijreview.com/2012/07/11860-general-motors-share-price-tanks/

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Obama SAVED THE AUTO INDUSTRY!!!!!


http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120813/AUTO01/208130392/1148/rss25

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Chevy Volt production halted. Retooling to sell another car nobody wants



http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2012/08/28/gm-powers-down-the-volt-again.aspx

[Furtherman]

Auto sales jump: Chrysler 14%, Ford 12.6%, GM 10.1% in August (http://www.freep.com/article/20120904/BUSINESS01/120904016/1014/business01)

[A.J.]

I buy Jap cars.

[cougarjake13]

last 2 I bought were hyndauis

[Jujubees2]

Auto sales jump: Chrysler 14%, Ford 12.6%, GM 10.1% in August (http://www.freep.com/article/20120904/BUSINESS01/120904016/1014/business01)

Why Furthdamn, Why? You know that WF will be on here shortly...

[Furtherman]

Why Furthdamn, Why? You know that WF will be on here shortly...

Oh, does he like to post here?

[brettmojo]

Auto sales jump: Chrysler 14%, Ford 12.6%, GM 10.1% in August (http://www.freep.com/article/20120904/BUSINESS01/120904016/1014/business01)

Uh oh... WRESTLINGFAN isn't happy...

http://findyourinnergeek.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/bryan_no.jpg

[Dude!]

Uh oh... WRESTLINGFAN isn't happy...

why not?
Ford didn't take any of
the $80 billion bailout money
and they're up 12.6% anyway

[WRESTLINGFAN]

In regards to sales.


Ford was never in the situation Chrysler and GM was. Chrysler was sold back tot he private sector at a billion dollar loss. Those new sales profits everyone is gushing over is going to an Italian company.


Not so fast on the GM sales. Last time we heard of great sales numbers it was due to a lot of vehicles purchased by the fed gov't. Look at GMs stock price. Still hovering about 21 a share. Also GM is going back to lowering their standards for people in the private sector to buy their cars. Loosening credit requirements allows more cars to be sold.


There were foreign car companies who also had great sales reports.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Nobody ever mentions when GM reports its earnings, those are also inflated. When theres a tax abatement and their debt is wiped out of course those numbers look good on paper.



Ford makes superior products than GM

[razorboy]

why not?
Ford didn't take any of
the $80 billion bailout money
and they're up 12.6% anyway

Instead Ford was the single biggest beneficiary of the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 by a huge margin and received 6 billion in super low rate taxpayer funded loans.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Also in a lot of those sales numbers, People are buying the bigger cars and trucks.


Why is it that you hardly see an Obama Biden sticker on a GM?

[Jujubees2]

Dammit Furtherman, I told you!!!!!!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GM Being sued over the SAAB deal


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500395_162-57487531/gm-sued-for-$3-billion-over-failed-saab-takeover/

[Jujubees2]

Are you happy now Furtherman??????????

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Another smashing success for GM


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/10/us-generalmotors-autos-volt-idUSBRE88904J20120910

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What a success


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-19/gm-buys-back-200mm-shares-us-government-uncle-sam-divest-remaining-stake-50-loss

[spoon]

you legitimately believe this was a US financial investment plan?

or was it to save an iconic industry and thousands of jobs? Making it all back would be icing on the top, but just what did you think the bailout was WF, agree or not?!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

you legitimately believe this was a US financial investment plan?

or was it to save an iconic industry and thousands of jobs? Making it all back would be icing on the top, but just what did you think the bailout was WF, agree or not?!

A plan to lose money


The GM bailout was crony capitalism and a handout to the UAW. GM is hardly making it all the way back.


There are Iconic industries that came back or that went into extinction that didnt take tens of billions of dollars from taxpayers.

[spoon]

great

glad to hear

this one didn't

and Bush started it, so I guess he was helping out those unions that had his back all those years right?

Bush and the UAW, match made in heaven!

[ozzie]

I bought a new GM car in March.

I'm doing my part!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7T9xWTmNPhI/S46rG9_LsPI/AAAAAAAACsE/8CTbi1zOQgI/s320/vlcsnap-158481.png

[WRESTLINGFAN]

great

glad to hear

this one didn't

and Bush started it, so I guess he was helping out those unions that had his back all those years right?

Yea and.


Bush started a lot of bailouts. Obama took the GM one by the horns and ran with it.


Amazing how people like you who say Bush did things and assume that I agree with it.


The PA and TSA was started under Bush too.


WHATS YOUR POINT?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I bought a new GM car in March.

I'm doing my part!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7T9xWTmNPhI/S46rG9_LsPI/AAAAAAAACsE/8CTbi1zOQgI/s320/vlcsnap-158481.png

My lease is up in March.


Getting another Acura built right here in the US in a right to work state. This will piss off Spoon :smile:


Take comfort though. Its made in Ohio. Obama won that state

[spoon]

Yea and.


Bush started a lot of bailouts. Obama took the GM one by the horns and ran with it.


Amazing how people like you who say Bush did things and assume that I agree with it.


The PA and TSA was started under Bush too.


WHATS YOUR POINT?

never said you agreed, but you SURE AS HELL weren't here bitching and moaning about it then, just like all the media outlets and blogs you take your lead from

next, it was to offset your bullshit point on it being a pure handout to his cronies at the UAW...I think it being started in a HUGE way by Bush not only crushes your tripe, it completely destroys it entirely. the bailout is exactly what it is...a bailout of an industry and it's jobs important to the country and it's wounded psyche. sure one can go deeper into the financials, but you should at least get that...however, it's free market or die right!?

[spoon]

My lease is up in March.


Getting another Acura built right here in the US in a right to work state. This will piss off Spoon :smile:


Take comfort though. Its made in Ohio. Obama won that state

I buy what I like, what is reliable and don't give two fucks what you buy. I have owned an Acura and it's a good car. Why would I be pissed? The only thing I see wrong in that sentence is the right to work state call out as if it's a great fucking thing. It is, if you're a "job creator" as your ilk like to say. It does nothing for the middle class but fuck them in their face.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

never said you agreed, but you SURE AS HELL weren't here bitching and moaning about it then, just like all the media outlets and blogs you take your lead from

next, it was to offset your bullshit point on it being a pure handout to his cronies at the UAW...I think it being started in a HUGE way by Bush not only crushes your tripe, it completely destroys it entirely. the bailout is exactly what it is...a bailout of an industry and it's jobs important to the country and it's wounded psyche. sure one can go deeper into the financials, but you should at least get that...however, it's free market or die right!?

Wrong


It was a handout and it violated federal bankruptcy laws. GM and Chrysler could have gone thru a managed bankruptcy and jobs could have been saved. Again Spoonfed I did not agree with everything Bush did. In fact he was a big spender just like Obama is and expanded the federal gov't the most since LBJ. Nevermind that comment though.

What wounded Psyche? That these car companies had bad business models because of horrible management and pension plans that were unsustainable?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I buy what I like, what is reliable and don't give two fucks what you buy. I have owned an Acura and it's a good car. Why would I be pissed? The only thing I see wrong in that sentence is the right to work state call out as if it's a great fucking thing. It is, if you're a "job creator" as your ilk like to say. It does nothing for the middle class but fuck them in their face.

Think the people who made my car are living in cardboard boxes?

[spoon]

not wrong, just something you don't agree with and this managed bankruptcy idea is as hilarious now as it was when brought up by your boy Mitt

sorry idiot, the only one spoonfed is yourself...and again, never once said you agreed with everything Bush said, but keep repeating yourself on yet another false point

[spoon]

Think the people who made my car are living in cardboard boxes?

yep, nailed me!

[spoon]

What wounded Psyche? That these car companies had bad business models because of horrible management and pension plans that were unsustainable?

yes, that's it!

:wallbash:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

not wrong, just something you don't agree with and this managed bankruptcy idea is as hilarious now as it was when brought up by your boy Mitt

sorry idiot, the only one spoonfed is yourself...and again, never once said you agreed with everything Bush said, but keep repeating yourself on yet another false point

My boy Mitt?


Youre hilarious...


Sorry dope I dont subscribe to just throwing money at everything hoping it succeeds

[WRESTLINGFAN]

yes, that's it!

:wallbash:

Yes it is


Why were the same body types needed across the different platforms. Example Cadillac Cimarron and Chevy Cavalier?


Remember the Chevy Vega? That was great.


Chevy Nova. Failed in LatAm. Nova means No go

[spoon]

My boy Mitt?


Youre hilarious...


Sorry dope I dont subscribe to just throwing money at everything hoping it succeeds

Yes sir, your boy Mitt. The guy you rant against but parrot along with most of his GOP takes on almost every issue. And nice call on the Nova...you have 5th grade joking knowledge of the auto industry and surely should be consulted with to lead them into the new era of auto making!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yes sir, your boy Mitt. The guy you rant against but parrot along with most of his GOP takes on almost every issue. And nice call on the Nova...you have 5th grade joking knowledge of the auto industry and surely should be consulted with to lead them into the new era of auto making!

Youre sounding like a board character again.


I have knowledge of the American auto Industry failing to adapt in the 70's and 80's and the Japanese eating their lunch


Was there really a need for the Nova and Buick Skylark? Look at the joke Saturn was. Also there was the Opel brand.

[ozzie]

My lease is up in March.


Getting another Acura built right here in the US in a right to work state. This will piss off Spoon :smile:


Take comfort though. Its made in Ohio. Obama won that state

I looked at just about every 4-door "sedan" on the market, including the Acura's.

My "GM" sales guy turned me on to the "new" Buicks, and was selling me on the fact that the new Regal was billed as the "Acura Killer":

http://www.prlog.org/10568712-buick-is-back.jpg

Fucker rides and handles like a dream, and was completely loaded, including the 2.0 turbo engine.

I couldn't believe they accepted my offer.

Then I found out part of the reason why. This was the very last Regal on the lot. Might have been the last "new" Regal for sale on any lot anywhere for all I know. The 2011's were built in Germany, and there was going to be a transitional period before they started making them in N. America. I think the Regals are actually going to be built in Canada. I'm not even sure if they made any 2012 models?

So much for feeling good about buying "american".

[spoon]

Youre sounding like a board character again.


I have knowledge of the American auto Industry failing to adapt in the 70's and 80's and the Japanese eating their lunch


Was there really a need for the Nova and Buick Skylark? Look at the joke Saturn was. Also there was the Opel brand.

so saturn was a joke, or became one!?

and you are so up on auto failings back from when you were around 10?! or was it your major in college? Oh, you just read some biased articles on it time and time again I suppose making you an expert. Board character!? You were never anything more.

and again, stop listing cars with issues or that don't have a good history with your master hindsight, as there are plenty on the other side of the isle too. i still like japanese cars better for the record, but I'm not one to look at it all in such biased ways to make a fucking false point as you constantly do.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I still see tons more Acuras on the road than Buicks.


Even though I will never buy a GM or Chrysler. The Buicks no longer look like senior citizen cars

[spoon]

I looked at just about every 4-door "sedan" on the market, including the Acura's.

My "GM" sales guy turned me on to the "new" Buicks, and was selling me on the fact that the new Regal was billed as the "Acura Killer":

http://www.prlog.org/10568712-buick-is-back.jpg

Fucker rides and handles like a dream, and was completely loaded, including the 2.0 turbo engine.

I couldn't believe they accepted my offer.

Then I found out part of the reason why. This was the very last Regal on the lot. Might have been the last "new" Regal for sale on any lot anywhere for all I know. The 2011's were built in Germany, and there was going to be a transitional period before they started making them in N. America. I think the Regals are actually going to be built in Canada. I'm not even sure if they made any 2012 models?

So much for feeling good about buying "american".

well that's just it, we ranted on the Japanese for milking our market and giving nothing back and now a TON of their cars are made here as our ceo's can only make money by outsourcing our jobs as was the case for years now. My toyota was made here, but my infinity was not.

[spoon]

I still see tons more Acuras on the road than Buicks.


Even though I will never buy a GM or Chrysler. The Buicks no longer look like senior citizen cars

they still aren't as smooth and have some old feel to them (buicks)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

so saturn was a joke, or became one!?

and you are so up on auto failings back from when you were around 10?! or was it your major in college? Oh, you just read some biased articles on it time and time again I suppose making you an expert. Board character!? You were never anything more.

and again, stop listing cars with issues or that don't have a good history with your master hindsight, as there are plenty on the other side of the isle too. i still like japanese cars better for the record, but I'm not one to look at it all in such biased ways to make a fucking false point as you constantly do.

Yea theres a car criticism class in college. I took it with lesbian poetry.

I had a couple of GM cars back in the day and both had problems. Im on my 4th Acura lease and I never had anything wrong with them. All I had to do was the regular oil change and tire rotations.


Caddy has made a decent comeback with nicer looking cars but youre not seeing the point. That was done with a taxpayer bailout.


Yes I'll admit that a small reason of not getting a GM or Chrysler is due to the bailout but thats the free market. I choose to buy Japanese but if someone wants to buy an American car I'm not going to stop them.

[ozzie]

Why were the same body types needed across the different platforms. Example Cadillac Cimarron and Chevy Cavalier?


Remember the Chevy Vega? That was great.


Chevy Nova. Failed in LatAm. Nova means No go

At one point, there seemed to be a "Pontiac" equivalent of almost every "Chevy" vehicle produced.

Chevy Cavalier = Pontiac Sunfire

Etc

Was there really a need for the Nova and Buick Skylark? Look at the joke Saturn was. Also there was the Opel brand.

The Regal I ultimately bought was originally designed to be an Opel product, which is why it was designed and built in Germany, and designed to compete with European touring sedans. Then some GM exec looked at it and said, "Hey, that would make a great Buick!".

Europe's loss was my gain. None of the Opels were ever intended to be sold over here.

[spoon]

Yea theres a car criticism class in college. I took it with lesbian poetry.

I had a couple of GM cars back in the day and both had problems. Im on my 4th Acura lease and I never had anything wrong with them. All I had to do was the regular oil change and tire rotations.


Caddy has made a decent comeback with nicer looking cars but youre not seeing the point. That was done with a taxpayer bailout.


Yes I'll admit that a small reason of not getting a GM or Chrysler is due to the bailout but thats the free market. I choose to buy Japanese but if someone wants to buy an American car I'm not going to stop them.

yes wf, car criticism and lesbian poetry classes you ass...it's the exact class and better yet major I was referring to!

I
D
I
O
T

and aren't you the big man allowing others to buy what they want! you're ever so kind.

you're not seeing any point outside of the one in front of you with fucking blinders on

[WRESTLINGFAN]

yes wf, car criticism and lesbian poetry classes you ass...it's the exact class and better yet major I was referring to!

I
D
I
O
T

and aren't you the big man allowing others to buy what they want! you're ever so kind.

you're not seeing any point outside of the one in front of you with fucking blinders on


Blinders are thinking that a multi billion dollar loss is successful


You would make a lousy portfolio manager. Hey it was a great quarter your investments only declined 15%

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GM is still losing US market share down to less than 18%

[brettmojo]

GM is still losing US market share down to less than 18%

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIl4hRpx77TqOS9-Hk7jkixYYIrBNITjgWoGGHomIqbAooe4gasZqxkyOe

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIl4hRpx77TqOS9-Hk7jkixYYIrBNITjgWoGGHomIqbAooe4gasZqxkyOe


Don't you mean grasping facts?

[spoon]

Blinders are thinking that a multi billion dollar loss is successful


You would make a lousy portfolio manager. Hey it was a great quarter your investments only declined 15%

you just backed up the point I made earlier...you actually DO view this bailout as some financial portfolio which it clearly isn't, wasn't and never will be. It wasn't done to make fucking money on the stock, why can't you at least grasp that much.

[spoon]

Don't you mean grasping facts?

nah, he nailed it

[WRESTLINGFAN]

you just backed up the point I made earlier...you actually DO view this bailout as some financial portfolio which it clearly isn't, wasn't and never will be. It wasn't done to make fucking money on the stock, why can't you at least grasp that much.

It was on the books of the treasury dept.

The government said it was an investment, I love how they categorize an investment of taking money via taxation and not voluntary like the real world views it.

It lost money. The stock had an IPO in the 30's. Today it closed around 27 and change. Its a loss.

[Syd]

Nice of you to handwave away the costs, fiscal and societal, of a bunch of people going unemployed.

There's a huge difference between micro and macroeconomics and applying micro to macro leads you to dumbshit ideas for the country, e.g. anything Romney suggested

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I didnt advocate liquidation.


Im not shill for Romney,however it was the NYT who put in that extra headline of Let Detroit go Bankrupt. He wanted the taxpayer to guarantee the loans

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Tens of billions handed over to those deadbeats and they can't come up with a better looking C 7 ?



http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-autos-corvette-20130114,0,1702812.story?track=rss

[spoon]

ah, someone no likey the design?!

it could have been two hot bisexual women making out on four wheels and you'd fucking "hate" the design just bc of the company's history of late and tie to gov funds. you really don't have any objectivity at all on anything

[WRESTLINGFAN]

A lot of Vette enthusiasts say it reminds them of an overpriced Camaro especially from the rear
it's not impressive looking

And yes on a personal note. I would never buy a GM car. If I had money to splurge on a high end sports car it would be a European one

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It will probably sell more than that POS Volt

[spoon]

:wallbash:

[Dude!]

Tens of billions handed over to those deadbeats and they can't come up with a better looking C 7 ?



http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-autos-corvette-20130114,0,1702812.story?track=rss

i like the look...
and also that they have
brought back the name Stingray

[brettmojo]

It will probably sell more than that POS Volt

GM could only hope... (http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/03/autos/chevrolet-volt-sales/index.html)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The Volt is still the worst selling car according to the article. Furthermore a lot of those purchases are fleet vehicles for example GE buying a lot of them GE is also in bed witht he fed gov't


Also Police depts like NYC for example have purchased them. Demand in the private sector , (the real economy) is lackluster at best.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Correction


The NYPD purchases were done in 2011. However the GE ones were in 2012

[WRESTLINGFAN]

With all the propaganda, all the sales schemes and all the bumpersticker lines like GM is alive, they have been dethroned.


:clap::clap::clap::clap:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2013/01/28/business-toyota-gm-top-automaker-sales.html

[spoon]

The Volt is still the worst selling car according to the article. Furthermore a lot of those purchases are fleet vehicles for example GE buying a lot of them GE is also in bed witht he fed gov't


Also Police depts like NYC for example have purchased them. Demand in the private sector , (the real economy) is lackluster at best.

always an out

sales are fucking sales

There are literally THOUSANDS of Toyotas and Hondas sold via fleet too, shall we even out this picture or just pick and choose when facts counts...much less sales.

[spoon]

With all the propaganda, all the sales schemes and all the bumpersticker lines like GM is alive, they have been dethroned.


:clap::clap::clap::clap:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2013/01/28/business-toyota-gm-top-automaker-sales.html

Now it's official: Toyota is once again the world's top automaker.

Toyota Motor Corp. released its tally for global vehicle sales for last year Monday at a record 9.748 million vehicles — a bigger number than the estimate it gave last month of about 9.7 million vehicles.

It was already clear Toyota had dethroned General Motors Co. as the Detroit-based automaker fell short, selling 9.29 million vehicles.

GM had been the top-selling automaker for more than seven decades before losing the title to Toyota in 2008.

GM retook the sales crown in 2011, when Toyota's production was hurt by the quake and tsunami in northeastern Japan.

yes, propaganda like you pushing something that has gone back and forth for a while now, but first happened in two thousand and fucking EIGHT! Do some math there and let's see how the next 4 went and it's impact on where they are now (close fight) versus the 8 years leading up to that first fall? Fun.

[spoon]

and your clappy icons are just as trite as they are fucking insulting as a US citizen

you don't want this country to do well simply based on policy and allegiance, bc nobody in their right mind would be happy to see a US company fall from the top spot of any market...but we know where your true allegiances lie.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

60 Billion wasn't pissed away for Toyota . Bankruptcy laws were not violated to bail out the UAW. Those fucking deadbeats in Detroit still owe tens of billions.

Can you comprehend ? A true bankruptcy isn't the same as liquidation

Choosing what car to buy/lease with my own money is being a traitor? You are so laughable

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Also those sales figures for GM are inflated


GM and the govt are not practicing free market principles.


Face it. Japanese cars are superior


The line du jour in Charlotte was GM is alive and Bin Laden is dead


It should be Al Qaeda is alive and GM is on life support

[spoon]

60 Billion wasn't pissed away for Toyota . Bankruptcy laws were not violated to bail out the UAW. Those fucking deadbeats in Detroit still owe tens of billions.

Can you comprehend ? A true bankruptcy isn't the same as liquidation

Choosing what car to buy/lease with my own money is being a traitor? You are so laughable

did I say that asshole!? NOPE

i have a fucking toyota you dipshit

yet you are picking and choosing when fleet cars count and APPLAUDED GM losing ground, yet still selling the 2nd most of any company in the work and close to 10 million fucking vehicles

your argument is SOOOO fucking stupid and bullshit too...I don't even KNOW what car you have and could care less. It has ZERO to do with that, yet rooting for your country's companies to fail and our money to hence NOT be paid back based on where you stood on the bailout and policy is just fucking stupid

[spoon]

Also those sales figures for GM are inflated


GM and the govt are not practicing free market principles.


Face it. Japanese cars are superior


The line du jour in Charlotte was GM is alive and Bin Laden is dead


It should be Al Qaeda is alive and GM is on life support

It's worthless talking to you...you speak of "line du jours" but post the same bullshit rhetoric CONSTANTLY and it's almost the same bullshit from conserv channels, line for line. So you're still an ass, always an ass.

Sadly Japanese cars are better in my mind, but I'm not rooting on the demise of GM or any US based car company, much less those that needed help and got it.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

They had to offer all these kickbacks and sales gimmicks. Money was taken away from the private sector to prop up a failing company. All hail John Maynard Keynes!!!


Do you know GM is losing market share? Specifically in Europe? Of course you won't hear that from The nightly news

[WRESTLINGFAN]

They could have restructured but they were handed tens of billions of dollars. I would have liked GM and Chrysler to have emerged from bankruptcy based on free market principles and not just throwing money at them like this inept govt continues to do

So if the NY Times goes belly up, should they get taxpayer money? After all it's an American legacy since the 19th century

[spoon]

They had to offer all these kickbacks and sales gimmicks. Money was taken away from the private sector to prop up a failing company. All hail John Maynard Keynes!!!


Do you know GM is losing market share? Specifically in Europe? Of course you won't hear that from The nightly news

yah bc the US public is demanding sales figures and marketing updates on the nightly news...even those IN that market/industry dread those meetings/presentations

wonder what the fuck they were thinking?!

WF get the Keynes talking point out!

You gained 15 experience points!

:flush:

[spoon]

They could have restructured but they were handed tens of billions of dollars. I would have liked GM and Chrysler to have emerged from bankruptcy based on free market principles and not just throwing money at them like this inept govt continues to do

So if the NY Times goes belly up, should they get taxpayer money? After all it's an American legacy since the 19th century

that's a STUPID comparison of industries

PLAIN STUPID

and your free market bullshit angle here would have meant the fucking END of GM

END

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Wrong

Again

Concentrate. Bankruptcy and liquidation are 2 different things

[spoon]

Wrong

Again

Concentrate. Bankruptcy and liquidation are 2 different things

concentrate yourself fuckwad

you came up with that rundown on bankruptcy and liquidation all by yourself

congrats..wf a big boy now!

GM would be DONE...no matter how many stupid posts you make

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If free market principles were applied GM would have emerged stronger and those tens of billions could have been pissed away down a rat hole somewhere else

[spoon]

YEAH!

FREE MARKET PRINCIPLES to the rescue!

bullshit

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Long live Keynesian theory

Because its such a model for success

[Bob Impact]

If free market principles were applied GM would have emerged stronger and those tens of billions could have been pissed away down a rat hole somewhere else

http://www.myspace.com/video/thestatedvd/free-market-economy/60150587

[Syd]

Long live Keynesian theory

Because its such a model for success

http://i.imgur.com/ZoKNWeA.gif

[spoon]

http://www.myspace.com/video/thestatedvd/free-market-economy/60150587

love the state

so many young reno 911 peeps too...a show I never could get into that much

i see you free market and raise you "old fashion guy" aka WF / the GOP

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dpiw-ng5wkQ?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Bob Impact]

http://i.imgur.com/ZoKNWeA.gif

http://www.singularity.com/images/charts/CountdowntoSingularityLog.jpg
http://www.singularity.com/images/charts/AverageTrans.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://i.imgur.com/ZoKNWeA.gif

And who has been propping up and carrying most of the weight?

[Bob Impact]

I just realized that the text portion of my post didn't make it. To summarize: I used to think that Keynesian economics were creating unsustainable growth, then I realized that there are many technological areas that show exponential growth, it would follow that economic growth would follow the same general trend as technology.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GM is like the old coot in the nursing home with Alzheimers while his relatives are waiting for him to finally die off.

[spoon]

GM is like the old coot in the nursing home with Alzheimers while his relatives are waiting for him to finally die off.

Yes the old coot selling almost 10 million cars a year around the world, second for only the second time in the history of auto-making only about 450,000 cars behind in a very lucrative market. Finally die off is right. Great analysis buddy. You were right, one can only hope to attain your wizardly ways of insight!

fucking wow

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yes the old coot selling almost 10 million cars a year around the world, second for only the second time in the history of auto-making only about 450,000 cars behind in a very lucrative market. Finally die off is right. Great analysis buddy. You were right, one can only hope to attain your wizardly ways of insight!

fucking wow

Yes, on life support and not practicing free market theories and losing market share especially in Europe.


When those sales are fleet purchases by different levels of government thats hardly anything to brag about.


The majority of new cars (bought/leased by the private sector) are cars made by foreign automakers and the huge majority of Obama/Biden stickers are not on GM's

[spoon]

Yes, on life support and not practicing free market theories and losing market share especially in Europe.


When those sales are fleet purchases by different levels of government thats hardly anything to brag about.


The majority of new cars (bought/leased by the private sector) are cars made by foreign automakers and the huge majority of Obama/Biden stickers are not on GM's

again, fleet uses a complete mix of companies for their cars...in fact, probably more toyota than any other of late

so yes, just GM has that taken out to make your bullshit argument

somehow, your bumper sticker even trumped your fleet argument scientifically

[WRESTLINGFAN]

again, fleet uses a complete mix of companies for their cars...in fact, probably more toyota than any other of late

so yes, just GM has that taken out to make your bullshit argument

somehow, your bumper sticker even trumped your fleet argument scientifically

GE has made a lot of those purchas of fleet vehicles. They got a lot of TARP money for thie GE capital to buy GM cars. Same with municipal state and fed gov't purchases.


If a company in the private sector buys Toyotas for fleet purchases it's not via the taxpayer.


See the difference?

[spoon]

GE has made a lot of those purchas of fleet vehicles. They got a lot of TARP money for thie GE capital to buy GM cars. Same with municipal state and fed gov't purchases.


If a company in the private sector buys Toyotas for fleet purchases it's not via the taxpayer.


See the difference?

I see you twisting around like a mad man to make the world fit your bullshit. That and you rooting for US companies to fail bc of any tie to Obama....that's ALL I see.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Private sector vs Public/Gov't sector


See the difference ?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

PS

The auto bailout began under dubya and I was against it


Obama gave it PED's

[spoon]

PS

The auto bailout began under dubya and I was against it


Obama gave it PED's

i don't recall that for sure...but my guess is you BECAME against it when it was continued under Obama

[WRESTLINGFAN]

i don't recall that for sure...but my guess is you BECAME against it when it was continued under Obama



Wrong

I was against it before 1/20/09