The Immigration Issue [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

WRESTLINGFAN

03-25-2006, 03:12 PM

This has become a very heated debate. There was legislation passed in the house to make it a felony for companies to hire illegals, but the democrats in the senate are threatening to filibuster. The president is pushing a guest worker program, but republicans on the hill are against it. There really isnt a simple solution to this, there are estimates that between 10-20 million people here are illegally, theres no way the feds can boot all of them out. Some say build a wall but i really dont think that will solve it either, this thing has been dragging on and both sides really dont have a plan that works

Bulldogcakes

03-25-2006, 03:15 PM

<a href="http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IMMIGRATION_RALLIES?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-03-25-02-15-35" target="_self" title="Thousands March in L.A. Over Immigration">Thousands March in L.A. Over Immigration</a><img border="0" src="http://hosted.ap.org/photos/C/CAAJ10803252345-small.jpg" />  LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Tens of thousands of immigrant
rights advocates from across Southern California marched Saturday in
protest of federal legislation that would build more walls along the
U.S.-Mexico border and make helping illegal immigrants a crime.  <a href="http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IMMIGRATION_RALLIES?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-03-25-02-15-35" target="_self" title="Thousands March in L.A. Over Immigration"></a>

Patches

03-25-2006, 03:17 PM

I just love that the banner ad on this thread is about becoming a US citizen... ironic.  i think.  not sure what that means..EDIT- dammit... it was before...

This message was edited by Patches on 3-25-06 @ 7:18 PM

Bulldogcakes

03-25-2006, 03:21 PM

I'm 100% with immigrants on this. If you know any of these people, they work very hard (much harder than most Americans) doing sometimes dangerous work for crap pay. And they do it for a chance that their children will have a better life. To attack them is attacking the poor, the unrepresented politically, the people who can least fight back. Its a pussy move by the bullies in Congress, who are just reacting to the looney far right wing of the Republican party. Shame on them.

sr71blackbird

03-25-2006, 03:36 PM

When this country was founded, we didnt have a rich neighbor to mooch off of, and we had to make it work on our own and look how it turned out for us.  These immigrants out to have some pride in trying to turn their own countries into proserous nations by the sweat of their own labor and pride.  Far far too many of these people flood into here and exhaust our economic resources by dropping babys because it grants automatic citizen status, and they dont even have the decency to adjust to our language or contribute as tax payers, yet they get all the benefits. 

keithy_19

03-25-2006, 03:39 PM

How hard is it to apply for citizenship? That's an honest question, since I don't know.

Bulldogcakes

03-25-2006, 03:43 PM

Sorry SR, but EVERY non-english speaking immigrant group has spoke their native tongue when they got here. Look at early 1900's pictures of Little Italy. Not a single sign in english. <img width="300" height="219" border="0" src="http://www.italiamerica.org/08d2cdb0.jpg" />BTW- Many if not most of the Italians and Irish and Jews who came here in the 1900's did so illegally. Look it up. Italians even had a nickname "WOP", meaning With Out Papers. Since so many came here illegally. 

 

This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 3-25-06 @ 7:48 PM

Sheeplovr

03-25-2006, 03:48 PM

I like the phrase "do the jobs that americans don't want to do"

Bulldogcakes

03-25-2006, 03:50 PM

Try to get a sandwich in NYC without illegal immigrants. You'll pay double for it and wait twice as long to get it.

sr71blackbird

03-25-2006, 03:54 PM

But no one made it easy for the Italians (my ancestors came over from Italy), and all my ancestors learned English and kept spotless homes and made their neighborhoods the envy of the city.  They were proud to become US citizens!  These immigrants your talking about do not try and do anything to improve where they live, and most just send back all the money they earn here to their country instead of investing in improving their neighborhood.  I see them as leeches.  There is a town 4 miles from me where they line up as day laborers on the curb and they run out to any truck that stops nearby, begging for work. 

This message was edited by sr71blackbird on 3-25-06 @ 7:56 PM

Bulldogcakes

03-25-2006, 04:29 PM

Spotless homes and neighborhoods?<img width="300" height="219" border="0" src="http://www.italiamerica.org/08f2cdb0.jpg" /> Everybody romanticizes their past, but lets be real. Every immigrant group brings with it problems associated with poverty. Such as crime, poor living conditions, etc. The Italians who settled in Little lived in cramped tenements and threw their garbage out the windows at night. And they gave us the gift of organized crime, lets not forget. Which still plagues this country 100 years after they arrived. BTW- If you want to see shitty substandard housing, drive through the Orthdox Jewish part of Williamsburgh Brooklyn. Crap in front of the poorly maintained buildings, peeling paint on the houses, stores so dingy you'd never want to buy anything there. And many are not only American citizens, but Israeli citizens as well. And they send every dime they can to Israel. They also squeeze everything they can get out of the City's services. Should we have a problem with them as well? If not, why?   

This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 3-25-06 @ 8:31 PM

HBox

03-25-2006, 04:34 PM

I'm the son of an immigrant. And she tells me that she came here legally, but can I really trust a dirty foreigner?

phillybri76

03-25-2006, 05:00 PM

SR71,So these "leeches" should stay in their own nation where there's almost 0% chance of their kids succeeding, rather than come here and giving them even a modest chance at a good life?I'm beginning to wish your family had thought that way...

sr71blackbird

03-25-2006, 05:10 PM

They leech off a society that wants them to integrate themselves, and your suggesting that we make it as easy as possible for them to NOT INTEGRATE?  What planet did YOUR ancestors come from?  If you come here, have the decency to support the nation that supports you, or get the fuck out!  If your from some south american nation and you love that nation so much, but you come here to to reap cash and send it back to that nation, what your doing is being a leech to this nations wealth and this shoulnt be tolerated. 

FezPaul

03-25-2006, 05:18 PM

I'm with blackbird on this. Mexico is rich in natural resources, and could be a great nation. Unfortunately many of the go-getters who could make difference, take the easy way out and head north. If that that avenue were blocked, then the people would agitate for change in Mexico and the corrupt Gov. would be forced to reform.

HBox

03-25-2006, 05:24 PM

sr71blackbird wrote: They leech off a society that wants them to integrate themselves, and your suggesting that we make it as easy as possible for them to NOT INTEGRATE? What planet did YOUR ancestors come from? If you come here, have the decency to support the nation that supports you, or get the fuck out! If your from some south american nation and you love that nation so much, but you come here to to reap cash and send it back to that nation, what your doing is being a leech to this nations wealth and this shoulnt be tolerated.   Do you know how much illegal immigrants are paying into Social Security under fake numbers that they will never collect on? Do you know how much of Social Security taxes are currently diverted to the general federal budget?

bobrobot

03-25-2006, 05:25 PM

Instead of building a wall around the U.S., all non citizens of the United States should be required to wear those invisible fence dog collars that choke the wearer when they cross the border.<img height="216" src="http://www.petsmart.com/media/ps/images/products/detail/standard/July04/7429_39d81.jpg" width="216" border="0" />

suggums

03-25-2006, 05:31 PM

after all the bullying and backwards deals and overthrown governments this country has imposed on south/central america for their natural resources and produce over the past 50-100 years, i have no problem with them coming here and wanting a fair shot. they just want to play by our rules, since our rules probably helped ruin their country economically. 

This message was edited by suggums on 3-25-06 @ 9:36 PM

sr71blackbird

03-25-2006, 05:32 PM

HBox wrote:  sr71blackbird wrote: They leech off a society that wants them to integrate themselves, and your suggesting that we make it as easy as possible for them to NOT INTEGRATE? What planet did YOUR ancestors come from? If you come here, have the decency to support the nation that supports you, or get the fuck out! If your from some south american nation and you love that nation so much, but you come here to to reap cash and send it back to that nation, what your doing is being a leech to this nations wealth and this shoulnt be tolerated.   Do you know how much illegal immigrants are paying into Social Security under fake numbers that they will never collect on? Do you know how much of Social Security taxes are currently diverted to the general federal budget? So allowing the borders to be opened completely will solve this?  Im understanding you that people are "faking it" SS wise, but is the answer to just foreget about trying to control who can enter the US? Could any of us waltz into Russia and try and get a job without documents?  Why must own own standard be nill?

This message was edited by sr71blackbird on 3-25-06 @ 9:32 PM

newport king

03-25-2006, 05:44 PM

When this country was founded, we didnt have a rich neighbor to mooch off of, and we had to make it work on our own and look how it turned out for us.  These immigrants out to have some pride in trying to turn their own countries into proserous nations by the sweat of their own labor and pride.  Far far too many of these people flood into here and exhaust our economic resources by dropping babys because it grants automatic citizen status, and they dont even have the decency to adjust to our language or contribute as tax payers, yet they get all the benefits.  <img src="http://picmovie.free.fr/Affiche_cine/american-x.jpg" border="0" />"That touched me right here."

HBox

03-25-2006, 05:54 PM

So allowing the borders to be opened completely
will solve this? Im understanding you that people are "faking it" SS
wise, but is the answer to just foreget about trying to control who can
enter the US? Could any of us waltz into Russia and try and get a job
without documents? Why must own own standard be nill? I'm just trying to combat the image you are trying to portray of them. The vast majority of them come here to work for a better life. If they crowd the emergency rooms, it because they are poor and our health care system is a disaster and that's just how it works for any poor people. If they have more kids, its because poor people generally have more kids. If their homes don't look impressive, it's because they're poor and they work their asses off and don't have much time or money for home decor. They aren't a burden on the whole. I'd like to relax our immigration standards a bit, to make it easier for them to be here legally. Not turn a blind eye as they cross the border, but we're a better country overall when we welcome immigrants. 

This message was edited by HBox on 3-25-06 @ 9:55 PM

sr71blackbird

03-25-2006, 06:13 PM

Between the rampant exportation of jobs overseas to places like India (see DELL) and the unrestricted import of products that prevent American workers from doing any kind of actual physical work, as fas as factory work is concerned (see General Motors, IBM, etc.) along with a flow of workers here illegally, it is only a matter of time until no American will have a job for longer than a year before having to look for new work and a lower wage.  I understand the motivation of whoever is in politics to "even out the playing field", but you know what?  People have a mortgage to pay and a lifestyle and many people put their lives at risk to assure us of this, and as long as this continues uncontested, it was all for nothing, and thats a crying shame.

newport king

03-25-2006, 06:22 PM

seriously your last name wouldnt be vineyard would it?

sr71blackbird

03-25-2006, 06:27 PM

Negative, cat abondoner <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/wink.gif" border="0" />

HBox

03-25-2006, 06:27 PM

sr71blackbird wrote: Between the rampant exportation of jobs overseas to places like India (see DELL) and the unrestricted import of products that prevent American workers from doing any kind of actual physical work, as fas as factory work is concerned (see General Motors, IBM, etc.) along with a flow of workers here illegally, it is only a matter of time until no American will have a job for longer than a year before having to look for new work and a lower wage. I understand the motivation of whoever is in politics to "even out the playing field", but you know what? People have a mortgage to pay and a lifestyle and many people put their lives at risk to assure us of this, and as long as this continues uncontested, it was all for nothing, and thats a crying shame.   The offshoring thing was always overblown and is already slowing down. The major handicap companies such as General Motors is that they are solely responsible for thei employees health care in a country with a massively innefficient, and therefore highly costly, health system. None of their foreign competitors have to deal with that with all their workers. And GM, etc. put crap on the market for a long time. Neither issue has much at all to do with illegal immigrants. If all illegal immigrants disappeared, or the flow of illegal immigrants stopped, yeah wages would go up, but so would prices, only moreso. There's a major balancing act that needs to be performed here. This is always a red herring issue, and there's only one reason why it all of a sudden came to the forefront: the Republicans are unpopular in just about every other single issue. They are going back to old tricks in desperation. There are much bigger problems facing this country.

sr71blackbird

03-25-2006, 06:34 PM

HBox wrote:  sr71blackbird wrote: Between the rampant exportation of jobs overseas to places like India (see DELL) and the unrestricted import of products that prevent American workers from doing any kind of actual physical work, as fas as factory work is concerned (see General Motors, IBM, etc.) along with a flow of workers here illegally, it is only a matter of time until no American will have a job for longer than a year before having to look for new work and a lower wage. I understand the motivation of whoever is in politics to "even out the playing field", but you know what? People have a mortgage to pay and a lifestyle and many people put their lives at risk to assure us of this, and as long as this continues uncontested, it was all for nothing, and thats a crying shame.   The offshoring thing was always overblown and is already slowing down. The major handicap companies such as General Motors is that they are solely responsible for thei employees health care in a country with a massively innefficient, and therefore highly costly, health system. None of their foreign competitors have to deal with that with all their workers. And GM, etc. put crap on the market for a long time. Neither issue has much at all to do with illegal immigrants. If all illegal immigrants disappeared, or the flow of illegal immigrants stopped, yeah wages would go up, but so would prices, only moreso. There's a major balancing act that needs to be performed here. This is always a red herring issue, and there's only one reason why it all of a sudden came to the forefront: the Republicans are unpopular in just about every other single issue. They are going back to old tricks in desperation. There are much bigger problems facing this country.The offshoring thing was always overblown and is already slowing down. Oh <a href="http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-6045594.html" target="_blank">really?</a>  I had been a supporter of this guys party, but now I see that either party is in bed with whoever is behind the concept of selling off American jobs by way of making it sooooooo easy for big corporations to do it.

HBox

03-25-2006, 06:41 PM

I'm not going to be able to find it, but I remember reading articles about a bunch of companies, Dell included I believe, that were already pulling back on offshoring services because they weren't receiving the quality/value they were expecting.As far as that article goes, it would be nice if he would actually come through on the promise of more education to combat this, but like most of what he says its complete shit.

TheRealEddie

03-25-2006, 08:01 PM

Sheeplovr wrote: I like the phrase "do the jobs that americans don't want to do" 
  Nothing pisses me off more than hearing that line of bullshit. Bush is especially fond of it recently. What it should really say is:"do the jobs that americans don't want to do BECAUSE WE ARE UNDERPAYING"The immigrant workers are being taken advantage of, surprise surprise its all about money.

Bulldogcakes

03-26-2006, 02:33 AM

sr71blackbird wrote: Between the rampant exportation of jobs overseas to places like India (see DELL) and the unrestricted import of products that prevent American workers from doing any kind of actual physical work, as fas as factory work is concerned (see General Motors, IBM, etc.) along with a flow of workers here illegally, it is only a matter of time until no American will have a job for longer than a year before having to look for new work and a lower wage. I understand the motivation of whoever is in politics to "even out the playing field", but you know what? People have a mortgage to pay and a lifestyle and many people put their lives at risk to assure us of this, and as long as this continues uncontested, it was all for nothing, and thats a crying shame.  First of all, the notion that they are a net minus to the economy is simply wrong. They come here and have to house, feed, and clothe themselves. All of which they purchase at US businesses. The little thats leftover that some send home is chump change in comparison. And if there was this huge drain of jobs by immigrants and overseas, then why do we have less than 5% unemployment? (which economists will tell you is full employment)And your "lifestyle" would suffer if these folks weren't doing the work they do. See what it costs to have some home improvement done by a unionized company, then ask a local handyman what he could do it for. About half. Same goes for landscaping, construction, restaurants. If it starts costing you $60 a head at your local restaurant instead of the $35 it does now, you wont be able to afford to eat out as much. There goes your lifestyle.  And they wouldn't come here if there weren't jobs for them. When the NYC economy tanked after 9/11, illegal immigration came to a halt. No jobs. So problem is self correcting.  <blockquote />

JimBeam

03-26-2006, 09:29 AM

It may not sound pretty but face it they are jobs that " Americans wont do " .Mostly because we want to be over-paid for our jobs but thats because living costs so much because people want to be paid more.Its cyclical.There's no way that anybody illegal should get a college education or anything other than basic medical.I dont care if they walkd 1000 miles and left a country that was overthrown by the US so we could put up cell towers.My parents worked full time jobs to send me to college and they paid the loans. Should they be able to default on those loans because their ancestors had to eat potatos for 100 years in the " old country " ?From what I hear it sucked pretty bad here in the 13 original colonies but s bunch of peole got together to do something.Why cant these immigrants do the same things in their country ?You know why ?Having cable TV in America is more fun.

UnknownPD

04-08-2006, 08:21 AM

The offshoring thing was always overblown and is already slowing down  You're kidding right? 10,000 more jobs at Dell..in India <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=1745410">Dell</a> will expand its 10,000 strong workforce in India by another 10,000 over the next 3 years. Could also mean they don't need to be overpaying so many employees in the USA in the near future. When: 3/21/2006jobs at Dell..in India <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=1745410">Dell</a> will expand its 10,000 strong workforce in India by another 10,000 over the next 3 years. Could also mean they don't need to be overpaying so many employees in the USA in the near future. When: 3/21/2006 

This message was edited by UnknownPD on 4-8-06 @ 1:12 PM

WRESTLINGFAN

04-09-2006, 09:01 AM

Watch Lou Dobbs at 6:30pm on CNN. He is directly on point with this issue, Hes not one of these neo cons or liberals, he calls it as it is and is not afraid to criticize Congress or the President on this matter

Dirtybird12

04-09-2006, 10:12 AM

ive never seen so many spics in one place. im locking the door.

A.J.

04-10-2006, 02:47 AM

Mexico is rich in natural resources, and could be a great nationSee also "Africa". (Yes, I know Africa is a continent not a nation.)

nevnut

04-10-2006, 05:03 AM

I can't stay quiet on this issure anymore.I've scanned thru about half the post, I couldn't read them all because this issue gets my blood boiling.My Mother is from Norway.  She came here 100% legally.  She was a legal migrant (green card holder) for over 40 years then became a naturalized citizen about 4 years ago.  If she could do it, why can't the rest of them.I SAY IF YOU'RE HERE ILLEGALLY, GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY COUNTRY AND DO IT LEGALLY.

silera

04-10-2006, 04:07 PM

There's a quota system in place.  No one country can account for more than 7% of the total legal immigration allowed by the US each year.  This figure does not take into account the larger populations of such countries like Mexico or China.  Each year the US allows 480,000 family based and 140,000 employment based resident alien entry to the US.Mexico with a population of over 107 million is therefore capped out at 43,400 legal entries.Ireland with a population of just over 4 million is also capped out at 43,400 legal entries.The difference between the Mexicans and the Irish is that the Mexicans just happen to be within walking distance.

Tall_James

04-10-2006, 04:18 PM

Ireland with a population of just over 4 million is also capped out at 43,400 legal entries.43,399 less Alkey.

Bulldogcakes

04-10-2006, 04:25 PM

No one complains about the illegal immigrants from Ireland, Silera. Or Poland, I work in Greenpoint and half the place is illegal and doesn't speak English. But no one minds them, because they're white. For those who think the McCain-Kennedy bill is amnesty, read this a drive within
both parties to overhaul U.S. immigration laws in a way that
would both tighten border security and provide a way that would
give most of the estimated 11.5 million to 12 million people in
the United States illegally a chance for citizenship.
 
In exchange, they must hold jobs, pay back taxes and meet
other requirements, such as showing a knowledge of English.

Critics, including labor unions opposed to a guest-worker
program and conservatives fearful of lax border security,
denounce the measure as amnesty that would lead to even more
illegal immigration. But backers, including many employers, say
immigrants, legal and illegal, are vital to the economy.   I think a dirty little secret of this bill is many undocumented aliens WONT SIGN UP for these requirements. Thats alot to have to do. Only the ones who truly want to be Americans would be willing to go through all that. So this bill will only legalize the ones who'll tend to make good citizens, anyway. Another thing about the term "illegal". Very loaded and misunderstood term. Lots of things are illegal. Parking your car on the wrong side of the street is illegal, spitting on the sidewalk is illegal. That doesn't mean you have to deport all of them based solely on that. If they get in trouble with the law, send them home. If they're working hard and trying to make a better life for themselves and their family, leave them be.    

This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 4-10-06 @ 8:26 PM

mendyweiss

04-10-2006, 04:59 PM

I hear those Salvadoran gals will give you "full service" for 30 bucks. Is this bad?

Death Metal Moe

04-10-2006, 05:00 PM

mendyweiss wrote: I hear those Salvadoran gals will give you "full service" for 30 bucks. Is this bad? Yea, they can't explain it to you in English.

CruelCircus

04-10-2006, 10:05 PM

silera wrote: There's a quota system in place.  No one country can account for more than 7% of the total legal immigration allowed by the US each year.  This figure does not take into account the larger populations of such countries like Mexico or China.  Each year the US allows 480,000 family based and 140,000 employment based resident alien entry to the US.Mexico with a population of over 107 million is therefore capped out at 43,400 legal entries.Ireland with a population of just over 4 million is also capped out at 43,400 legal entries.The difference between the Mexicans and the Irish is that the Mexicans just happen to be within walking distance.Silera,That's a reason to push for changing the laws to take into account those disparities, not a reason to simply throw up our hands and say "Everybody in!"

Ndugu

04-10-2006, 10:17 PM

a migrant was on a ladder one day and almost dropped a hammer on my head, he said something but i didn't realize what happened until i saw the hammer hit the ground

PapaBear

04-11-2006, 12:26 AM

Let's re-examine the whole "language barrier" with this...About a week ago, a kid I work with referred to immigrants as "imports". When we challenged him on his phrasing, he didn't understand the difference. Though it's frustrating to deal with people who don't speak English, it's even more frustrating to deal with Americans who don't speak English.

Ndugu

04-11-2006, 02:34 AM

ya but even he can alert you to falling tools

trackstand

04-11-2006, 04:23 AM

"a migrant was on a ladder one day and almost dropped a hammer on my head, he said something but i didn't realize what happened until i saw the hammer hit the ground"I must say my beef witht this issue concerns the language problem.How is it the 200+ Vietnamese kids who got shoved into my high school back in the 70s managed to get a grip with English. Granted, it weren't that good, but I gave them an A+ for effort. Their parents too.I've got friends from Ghana, Zimbabwe, Cameroon, etc. who didn't speak a fricking lick of English, but within a year were  working as security guards and could at least get by.I would be insulted if I were from Mexico, El Salvador,etc. and the U.S. just placated me like this.English God Damnit!By the way, try getting a work visa in New Zealand or Holland or Singapore. This country is being rather hard on itself. Probably has to do with making up for the retard redneck types I saw burning the Mexican flag yesterday.

silera

04-11-2006, 10:14 AM

I was born here of immigrant parents.  I spoke spanish at home until I went to school.  My parents both learned enough english to work and make a living, and my mom eventually got her GED and attended college here.My children speak english at home and can understand spanish, and I'll venture to say that my grandkids probably won't speak spanish at all.Basically, it's about the amount of time invested in this country.  Recent immigrants still hold onto the dream of returning to their native countries, and hispanic immigrants in particular are different from previous waves because their homelands have always been a mere plane ride away.When the italians and irish came, they basically had no idea of returning.  Even considering that difference, how many Italian grandmothers could form an english sentence?  Immigrants have always tended to congregate in large cities in segregated neighborhoods upon their arrival.  Only after the first and second generation do they tend to disperse and start to assimilate into the American culture.It's just too simple to say learn English and assimilate.  Leave and come back legally.  Changing the quota system and enforcement against employers are the first ways to deal with it.  Honestly and fairly dealing with the amount of immigration that the United States can handle is also necessary.  We're a country of over 300,000,000 and most of the United States is empty.  If we get rid of 12 million illegals, we're also getting rid of 12 million consumers that pay sales tax, buy groceries, pay rent, and contribute to the economy.

blakjeezis

04-11-2006, 10:31 AM

I am an immigrant, a legal one, and when we moved here when I was 9 my parents demanded that we speak English at all times, both inside and outside of the home.

A.J.

04-11-2006, 10:34 AM

When the italians and irish came, they basically had no idea of returning.  Even considering that difference, how many Italian grandmothers could form an english sentence?  That's true with my family.  Both my grandmother's and grandfather's parents came from Italy.  They learned enough English to make a good life here but refused to have their children speak Italian because they believed "We're American now".  I guess this is more common with the first wave of Italian immigrants in the early 1900s (like my family) as opposed to later groups who came in the 1950s and 60s (most of the kids I grew up with).While I respect their desire to assimilate, I'm kind of disappointed to have lost that cultural connection because of my great-grandparents' refusal to have their kids be bilingual.  As a result, my grandparents and their siblings speak hardly any Italian.  I'M the only one in the family who speaks Italian with any fluency - and THAT'S now pretty much gone since I've fallen out of practice.

Recyclerz

04-11-2006, 11:18 AM

blakjeezis wrote: I am an immigrant, a legal one, and when we moved here when I was 9 my parents demanded that we speak English at all times, both inside and outside of the home. Since I remember you for ripping me a new a**hole for an innocent, albeit (apparently) politically incorrect use of a vitamin C-laden citrus foodstuff as an adjective in a political thread awhile ago, I see that what you did there was make a little joke.However, I refuse to be amused on  principle. Oh yeah & speak AMERICAN while you're here, ya fuzzy foreigner!  <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/wink.gif" border="0" />

Recyclerz

04-11-2006, 12:01 PM

And back on Topic, I agree with Silera's and BulldogCakes' views in this matter.  It seems to me that the opposition to immigration, especially from Spanish-speaking countries, in this country stems from cultural concerns more than economic ones and seems to be primarily centered around a fear that American culture cannot survive if English isn't the sole language that we talk to (or yell at) each other with.  I think this is wrong, as in incorrect, not (necessarily) as in morally flawed.  In all other countries that are interwoven in the global economy the people usually speak two or three languages fairly well.  The US is the exception, and frankly, we're pretty damn lucky that English is the lingua franca.  Yes, i think that everyone who lives here should be able to speak English (eventually) and should  buy into the idea of America. But I don't think that new immigrants should have to throw away their heritages just because we 3rd generation types have already done so.  (AS AJ points out we lose something important when we do.) And yes, I do think immigration does need to be controlled but the limits have to be set with the recognition that most of our (the US's) population growth for the forseeable future is going to come from Latin America and that this is not an inherently bad thing.

HBox

04-11-2006, 12:25 PM

My grandparents came here legally along with my mother and my uncle from Italy. My Mom at 12 years old being the oldest kid, was the one who had to learn English. My grandparents never learned to speak English. They never dropped hammers on anyone's head.

Bulldogcakes

04-11-2006, 04:29 PM

A.J. wrote:That's true with my family. Both my grandmother's and grandfather's parents came from Italy. They learned enough English to make a good life here but refused to have their children speak Italian because they believed "We're American now". I guess this is more common with the first wave of Italian immigrants in the early 1900s (like my family) as opposed to later groups who came in the 1950s and 60s (most of the kids I grew up with).While I respect their desire to assimilate, I'm kind of disappointed to have lost that cultural connection because of my great-grandparents' refusal to have their kids be bilingual. As a result, my grandparents and their siblings speak hardly any Italian. I'M the only one in the family who speaks Italian with any fluency - and THAT'S now pretty much gone since I've fallen out of practice. I think the speaking English/native language thing is less cultural as more generational. The people who arrive here generally want their children to speak english (like Silera), even if they cant themselves. Then their grandchildren (like me and AJ) look to rediscover their roots at some point. Understand its very tough to learn a new language when you're older, especially if your working your ass off just to get by, which many are. But most of their children are at least bi-lingual, so this notion that people come here, form communities and have no desire to learn English simply isn't true.   If you've ever seen the immigrant stories on TV or recounted in an interview, you'll notice something. They always sound the same. No matter where they came from. They face the same obstacles, the same criticisms both now and 100 years ago. No matter which group your talking about, the similarities vastly outweigh any differences.   <blockquote />  BTW-AJ, I always knew when my Nana was cursing someone out. She would be having a conversation in English then suddenly switch to Italian. If for no other reason, that made me want to learn Italian.

Bulldogcakes

04-11-2006, 04:40 PM

Recyclerz wrote: Yes, i think that everyone who lives here should be able to speak English (eventually) and should buy into the idea of America.  Very important point, and why it doesn't matter where anyone comes from, they can be just as American as you or me.Ronald Reagan I received
a letter from a man that called something to my attention recently. He said, you can go to live in
France, but you cannot become a Frenchman; you can go to live in Germany, you cannot become a
German— or a Turk, or a Greek, or whatever. But he said anyone, from any corner of the
world, can come to live in America and become an American. I love when Recyclerz agree with Reagan. Makes me all warm and fuzzy.   <blockquote />

FUNKMAN

04-11-2006, 07:17 PM

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/11/immigration/index.html" target="_self">Immigration bills to lose felony proviso</a>Republican leaders of the House and Senate have agreed to drop efforts to make entering the United States illegally a felony, hoping to jump-start legislation to overhaul the U.S. immigration system.

silera

04-12-2006, 05:19 AM

My grandparents never learned to speak English. They never dropped hammers on anyone's head.I just need you to know that I did indeed laugh vociferously at this statement.

Recyclerz

04-12-2006, 08:18 PM

I love when Recyclerz agree with Reagan. Makes me all warm and fuzzy.  Can ya feel the love?  Hey, I've never said that Republicans are always wrong.  I just said that when I find myself agreeing with them I go back and doublecheck my math. <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/wink.gif" border="0" />W, specifically,  on the other hand, IS almost always wrong and often spectactularly so.  Even when he sort of puts together a policy proposal that is not completely idiotic, like for instance his ideas on immigration, (ironically enough), he lacks the managerial talent to actually put it into effect.  But since his not awful ideas are a very rare occurence  I'll keep sending the e-mails & such to try to keep him in check for the next 2.67 years to see if the Republic can actually survive.

WRESTLINGFAN

04-13-2006, 04:29 PM

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DHMxeXOgR8&search=illegal%20immigration">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DHMxeXOgR8&search=illegal%20immigration</a>

HBox

04-13-2006, 04:52 PM

If I were King, posting shit links like that would be illegal. Just thank your lucky stars I can't send out death squads, because if I could, I'd send one straight for you for wasting precious seconds of my life.

WRESTLINGFAN

04-13-2006, 05:00 PM

Marc with a c

04-13-2006, 05:08 PM

HBox wrote: If I were King, posting shit links like that would be illegal. Just thank your lucky stars I can't send out death squads, because if I could, I'd send one straight for you for wasting precious seconds of my life. if i were king i wouldnt waste my time doing any of this, i would be getting feed grapes and taking money baths.  make esd my jester, bx jon my bodyguard, earl my <strike>slave</strike> juke box picker guy.  i would make moe by bed bath and beyond boy, mikeyboy my secretary of state.  then i would have lots of hot girl sex. and never think about this board again, except for grey sweat shirt man, he really ruffles my feathers.

Yerdaddy

04-15-2006, 12:22 PM

I'd love to weigh on the whole language thing but I've been in the Middle East for a year and a half and my Arabic stinks! Languages are hard as fuck and I can't imagine being from a broke-ass country and having to work my ass in the States AND study English like a motherfucker! Anyone who does that should get free cable for life. <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060415/ap_on_bi_ge/mexico_waiting_jobs_2;_ylt=Ai59qclZIMeo1o5lXwQEg29 Quk0A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060415/ap_on_bi_ge/mexico_waiting_jobs_2;_ylt=Ai59qclZIMeo1o5lXwQEg29 Quk0A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl</a><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401686_pf.html">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401686_pf.html</a><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/15/us/15lobby.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin">http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/15/us/15lobby.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin</a>

suggums

05-01-2006, 06:32 AM

May 1st - A Day Without Immigrantsor so the media has hyped.  i haven't been out yet, but has anyone seen any firsthand effects of this?

Yerdaddy

05-01-2006, 07:04 AM

A day without immigrants is like a day without lottery tickets and beef jerky.

badorties

05-01-2006, 07:12 AM

suggums wrote: May 1st - A Day Without Immigrantsor so the media has hyped.  i haven't been out yet, but has anyone seen any firsthand effects of this?the local landscaper only had one guy woth him, there seemed to be less guys waitng along 69th street, the 7 train was a little emptier and some of the grease carts were missing from their usual corners ...

Don Stugots

05-01-2006, 08:07 AM

suggums wrote: May 1st - A Day Without Immigrantsor so the media has hyped.  i haven't been out yet, but has anyone seen any firsthand effects of this?I work at a construction company/wood working shop half the shop staff is out.  they are all illegal, and will never become legal unless it is done for them.  even then, they eill not pay taxes.  they want to be legal so that they can travel back and forth from where "home" is without a problem.  They also want to be able to apply for public assistance and social security.  this is what they tell me, I have no idea really and if you are not going to put a wall up or stop international travel, there will always be this problem.  thats my .02

HBox

05-01-2006, 08:25 AM

STUGOTS1 wrote: suggums wrote: May 1st - A Day Without Immigrantsor so the media has hyped. i haven't been out yet, but has anyone seen any firsthand effects of this?I work at a construction company/wood working shop half the shop staff is out. they are all illegal, and will never become legal unless it is done for them. even then, they eill not pay taxes. they want to be legal so that they can travel back and forth from where "home" is without a problem. They also want to be able to apply for public assistance and social security. this is what they tell me, I have no idea really and if you are not going to put a wall up or stop international travel, there will always be this problem. thats my .02  So, you have illegal immigrants running around your shop talking about how they want to become legal immigrants but won't lift a finger themselves to become one, that they won't pay taxes, and all they want to do is travel and collect social security and welfare? What is your shop called, "Convenient Stereotypes Woodworking"?

Bill From Yorktown

05-01-2006, 08:32 AM

eh, but 'em to work building a wall across the mexican border (ding ding)

Yosammity

05-01-2006, 09:02 AM

I think that Robert Plant really summed up the immigration issue in his lyric from Immigrant Song:"Ahhhhhhhhhh Ah"

FUNKMAN

05-01-2006, 09:52 AM

No need to worry, Bush has a handle on the situation... "It Is Clear Our Nation Is Reliant Upon Big Foreign Labor. More And More Of Our Illegal Aliens Are Coming From Outside The Country."<img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />you gotta have a little fun with this shit....

Bulldogcakes

05-01-2006, 03:10 PM

suggums wrote: May 1st - A Day Without Immigrantsor so the media has hyped. i haven't been out yet, but has anyone seen any firsthand effects of this? It depends where you are. I drive through some immigrant neighborhoods on my way home, depending on traffic. Went through today and literally 3/4 of the stores were closed.  <blockquote />

Yerdaddy

05-02-2006, 04:25 AM

I'M SURROUNDED BY FOREIGNERS!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!1

furie

05-02-2006, 12:42 PM

suggums wrote: May 1st - A Day Without Immigrantsor so the media has hyped. i haven't been out yet, but has anyone seen any firsthand effects of this?

i didn't notice any change in my routine. i guess they just didn't have the impact they were looking for.

SatCam

05-02-2006, 02:34 PM

I'M SURROUNDED BY FOREIGNERS!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!1

You're as cold as ice!!

http://www.connollyco.com/discography/foreigner/foreigner.jpg

Bulldogcakes

05-21-2006, 02:29 PM

I came across this on a google search.  I Like Ike in Italian <img src="http://ronwade.freeservers.com/Ike111-1x1_small.jpg" width="100" height="107" border="0" />I like Ike in French  <img src="http://ronwade.freeservers.com/Ikefrench_small.JPG" width="100" height="100" border="0" /> I
find it amusing that anti immigrant types bitch about how the country's
going downhill, politicians speak in spanish to audiences, and they say
it wasn't this way in the 50's when they grew up. Yes it was.

A.J.

07-08-2011, 05:57 AM

Poor WrestingFan: Gov. Malloy signs bill to give illegal immigrants in-state tuition rates (http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2011/07/08/news/doc4e16574dbdd01057797045.txt)

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 06:01 AM

Poor WrestingFan: Gov. Malloy signs bill to give illegal immigrants in-state tuition rates (http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2011/07/08/news/doc4e16574dbdd01057797045.txt)

Best comment from the article

" What part of the phrase "illegal immigrants" doesn't Malloy understand? An American kid who lives just over the border in Longmeadow Mass. would have to pay out of state tuition. Peru is ok, though. "

foodcourtdruide

07-08-2011, 06:15 AM

foodcourtdruide

07-08-2011, 06:22 AM

Best comment from the article

" What part of the phrase "illegal immigrants" doesn't Malloy understand? An American kid who lives just over the border in Longmeadow Mass. would have to pay out of state tuition. Peru is ok, though. "

Also, I'm really not surprised you thought this was the best quote in the article, as it is factually incorrect. The kid wouldn't be living in Peru. They would have had to go to high school in connecticut for 4 years to qualify.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 06:23 AM

Also, I'm really not surprised you thought this was the best quote in the article, as it is factually incorrect. The kid wouldn't be living in Peru. They would have had to go to high school in connecticut for 4 years to qualify.

Illegal aliens dont come to this country before HS age?

Jujubees2

07-08-2011, 06:24 AM

Also, I'm really not surprised you thought this was the best quote in the article, as it is factually incorrect. The kid wouldn't be living in Peru. They would have had to go to high school in connecticut for 4 years to qualify.

Don't let the facts stand in the way of a good WF post!

foodcourtdruide

07-08-2011, 06:27 AM

Illegal aliens dont come to this country before HS age?

Lol. Please stop grasping at straws and just admit the comment was factually incorrect. It was a stupid meaningless slogan.

If I move to California today, in 4 years would you say that I live in NY? Seriously, WF.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 06:36 AM

Lol. Please stop grasping at straws and just admit the comment was factually incorrect. It was a stupid meaningless slogan.

If I move to California today, in 4 years would you say that I live in NY? Seriously, WF.

If an American kid living in Westchester county ie Port Chester which is on the border of CT has to pay out of state tuition but an illegal alien brought into this country by his parents gets a break? Hows that not a valid arguement?

Jujubees2

07-08-2011, 06:39 AM

If an American kid living in Westchester county ie Port Chester which is on the border of CT has to pay out of state tuition but an illegal alien brought into this country by his parents gets a break? Hows that not a valid arguement?

Because Port Chester is in the state of New York. That kid can get in state tuition at any New York state school.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 06:41 AM

Because Port Chester is in the state of New York. That kid can get in state tuition at any New York state school.

And someone from Latin America here illegally is being rewarded. Maybe the American wants to go to UConn

A.J.

07-08-2011, 06:48 AM

And someone from Latin America here illegally is being rewarded. Maybe the American wants to go to UConn

Or Israelis.

http://www.uconnhooplegends.com/images_menslegends/images_menslegdpgs/HenefeldNadav_dribble.jpg

Jujubees2

07-08-2011, 06:51 AM

And someone from Latin America here illegally is being rewarded. Maybe the American wants to go to UConn

There's nothing stopping him from going to UConn.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 07:07 AM

There's nothing stopping him from going to UConn.

But he is paying out of state

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 08:42 AM

sailor

07-08-2011, 09:15 AM

But he is paying out of state

Yes, he lives out-of-state; the alien does not.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 09:25 AM

It should have been left up to the electorate at the very least.

foodcourtdruide

07-08-2011, 09:31 AM

Yes, he lives out-of-state; the alien does not.

I think WF thinks the illegal immigrant lives in Peru. I don't know how or why he thinks this, but that's his point.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 10:00 AM

I think WF thinks the illegal immigrant lives in Peru. I don't know how or why he thinks this, but that's his point.

Not at all. It rewarding the illegal alien from Peru living in the state....... illegally. Youre giving preferential treatment of an illegal foreigner over someone who lives 3 miles from the state border. Im not saying that someone from NY should pay in state tuition for going to UCONN, my point is that the illegal alien shouldnt be getting incentives the same as an American from Greenwich

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 10:15 AM

What are these illegal aliens going to do with college degrees? They will be worthless. Amnesty will not happen again, so you will basically have a bunch of unemployed illegals. The best choice is the DREAM act

In the other immigration thread I stated that I would accept a much more watered down version of the DREAM act, that would only legalize the people eligible and not the parents or allow chain migration and no in state tuition.

foodcourtdruide

07-08-2011, 10:58 AM

Not at all. It rewarding the illegal alien from Peru living in the state....... illegally. Youre giving preferential treatment of an illegal foreigner over someone who lives 3 miles from the state border. Im not saying that someone from NY should pay in state tuition for going to UCONN, my point is that the illegal alien shouldnt be getting incentives the same as an American from Greenwich

I know you're not going to agree with this, so I don't know why I am bothering to type it, but I want to explain to you why this issue is far more complex than your "what part of
'illegal immigrant' don't you understand?" quote.

In the end, our goal as a society shouldn't be "let's enforce the law at all costs." None of us truly believe this, if you believed it you'd be as vocal about all other laws that remain unenforced daily.

What is the purpose of sending children to school?

Does society benefit more when a child goes to college and eventually gets a degree vs. when the child does not?

Why should a child have to pay for their parents illegal activity?

You speak about "entitlements", but why is someone who was born in this country "entitled" more than someone who was not, if the person who was not is more qualified?

We may think about these issues and come to different conclusions, not because I'm smarter than you or you're smarter than me, but because we have a different set of core beliefs. However, don't minimize these complex issues in our society, that has a great affect on the future of millions of people with idiotic slogans.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 11:12 AM

I know you're not going to agree with this, so I don't know why I am bothering to type it, but I want to explain to you why this issue is far more complex than your "what part of
'illegal immigrant' don't you understand?" quote.

In the end, our goal as a society shouldn't be "let's enforce the law at all costs." None of us truly believe this, if you believed it you'd be as vocal about all other laws that remain unenforced daily.

Drive 100MPH after downing a 5th of Jack on queens blvd and see what happens, Why should an illegal alien who gets arrested not be deported? There are many times when illegals with multiple DUIs get to stay, that isnt a problem?

What is the purpose of sending children to school?

To educate them, but shouldnt Citizens have a priority?

Does society benefit more when a child goes to college and eventually gets a degree vs. when the child does not?
Does everyone have to go to college? Theres nothing wrong with trade/vocational/tech schools, I think this country puts too much emphasis on college and it has become another big business

Why should a child have to pay for their parents illegal activity?
Again DREAM act. Make the child earn their citizenship and dont reward the parents

You speak about "entitlements", but why is someone who was born in this country "entitled" more than someone who was not, if the person who was not is more qualified?

Hopping a fence should get someone rewards of the taxpayers? Our entitlement system is already in shambles

We may think about these issues and come to different conclusions, not because I'm smarter than you or you're smarter than me, but because we have a different set of core beliefs. However, don't minimize these complex issues in our society, that has a great affect on the future of millions of people with idiotic slogans.

Who is minimilazing anything? Im for making some concessions like a guest worker program and a limited DREAM act

Im trying to have a sensible approach, I am not saying lets hunt down all brown people, thats impossible , take away the incentives and the problem would eventually solve itself.

From all the previous amnesty bills that were passed it has made our illegal immigration problem worse. Streamline the process for legal immigration and maybe have limits and quotas for a few years. There is no population shortage here. 310 MM people here is more than enough people

Snacks

07-08-2011, 11:14 AM

I know you're not going to agree with this, so I don't know why I am bothering to type it, but I want to explain to you why this issue is far more complex than your "what part of
'illegal immigrant' don't you understand?" quote.

In the end, our goal as a society shouldn't be "let's enforce the law at all costs." None of us truly believe this, if you believed it you'd be as vocal about all other laws that remain unenforced daily.

What is the purpose of sending children to school?

Does society benefit more when a child goes to college and eventually gets a degree vs. when the child does not?

Why should a child have to pay for their parents illegal activity?

You speak about "entitlements", but why is someone who was born in this country "entitled" more than someone who was not, if the person who was not is more qualified?

We may think about these issues and come to different conclusions, not because I'm smarter than you or you're smarter than me, but because we have a different set of core beliefs. However, don't minimize these complex issues in our society, that has a great affect on the future of millions of people with idiotic slogans.

I agree with everything you say here but not this.

Being an american citizen should mean that you are 1st on the list to get help from your own country. If all things are equal and even if they are not. There is a benefit for countries and their citizens first. I dont have a problem with someone getting an education I do have a problem if someone who is here illegally takes away the chance of someone who is here legally or most of all an American citizen. Why should the American citizen suffer because of the mistakes of someone else but that person who made the mistakes own child doesnt?

The best way to solve this problem is make education more affordable for all and stop fighting over who deserves to be educated and join in the fight that everyone deserves the opportunity to get the education and skills needed to make them better!

foodcourtdruide

07-08-2011, 11:34 AM

Drive 100MPH after downing a 5th of Jack on queens blvd and see what happens, Why should an illegal alien who gets arrested not be deported? There are many times when illegals with multiple DUIs get to stay, that isnt a problem?

If the issue was just people who drive 100MPH after downing a 5th of jack on Queens Blvd getting deported, then there really wouldn't be much of a debate. I don't know why you used this as an example, it's really far off from the people we're discussing.

To educate them, but shouldnt Citizens have a priority?

Maybe, but that's not what your quote was about. Your quote was about a CITIZEN IN ANOTHER STATE that hadn't met the requirements for in-state tuition. Whether you like it or not, the illegal immigrant would have.

Hopping a fence should get someone rewards of the taxpayers? Our entitlement system is already in shambles

Again, why say "hopping a fence"? You always use derogatory language for illegal immigrants. It really shows your true colors and invalidates anything you say, because it's clear that any opinion you have is clouded with small-minded anger.

Who is minimilazing anything? Im for making some concessions like a guest worker program and a limited DREAM act

Im trying to have a sensible approach, I am not saying lets hunt down all brown people, thats impossible , take away the incentives and the problem would eventually solve itself.

From all the previous amnesty bills that were passed it has made our illegal immigration problem worse. Streamline the process for legal immigration and maybe have limits and quotas for a few years. There is no population shortage here. 310 MM people here is more than enough people

So in your mind, because you are not saying, "let's hunt down all brown people" (which you only don't say because it's "impossible"), you are taking a sensible approach?

Your notion of taking away all incentives is simply not possible, and also really wouldn't necessarily help our society. They would just satisfy your need to enforce a law.

foodcourtdruide

07-08-2011, 11:39 AM

I dont have a problem with someone getting an education I do have a problem if someone who is here illegally takes away the chance of someone who is here legally or most of all an American citizen. Why should the American citizen suffer because of the mistakes of someone else but that person who made the mistakes own child doesnt?

This is an interesting point. I go back and forth on it to be honest. Ultimately, wouldn't you want the person to get the best opportunity based on their quality as an individual, not something arbitrary like citizenship (especially at such a young age, where they really have no control over it)?

Is it fair that wealthy students have a much easier time getting into Ivy League colleges through legacy admissions? Is this much different?

sailor

07-08-2011, 11:39 AM

I am not saying lets hunt down all brown people, thats impossible

Wow. Impossible is where your problem with that plan is?

foodcourtdruide

07-08-2011, 11:41 AM

Wow. Impossible is where your problem with that plan is?

lol, I said something similar in my post above. He ignores things like families being broken up and communities being destroyed like they don't even exist.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 12:00 PM

If the issue was just people who drive 100MPH after downing a 5th of jack on Queens Blvd getting deported, then there really wouldn't be much of a debate. I don't know why you used this as an example, it's really far off from the people we're discussing.

I know it sounds harsh but an illegal alien knows the risks of being here, they run a risk of being deported

Maybe, but that's not what your quote was about. Your quote was about a CITIZEN IN ANOTHER STATE that hadn't met the requirements for in-state tuition. Whether you like it or not, the illegal immigrant would have.

Ill reiterate, At least let there be a vote for in state tuition

Again, why say "hopping a fence"? You always use derogatory language for illegal immigrants. It really shows your true colors and invalidates anything you say, because it's clear that any opinion you have is clouded with small-minded anger.

Illegals dont hop fences or swim across or sneak into tractor trailers ? Not all do, some overstay their visa, but how is that denegrating them?

So in your mind, because you are not saying, "let's hunt down all brown people" (which you only don't say because it's "impossible"), you are taking a sensible approach?

Yes because it would cost hundreds of billions of dollars to do As much as I am opposed to illegals being here, Im not taking the approach like what went on in Staten island last year

Your notion of taking away all incentives is simply not possible, and also really wouldn't necessarily help our society. They would just satisfy your need to enforce a law.

Why wouldnt it be possible? The laws in AZ,AL and GA are working, Illegals are fleeing

Almost every country did away from birthright citizenship, Take away that one incentive look how quick illegal immigration would slow down.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 12:02 PM

lol, I said something similar in my post above. He ignores things like families being broken up and communities being destroyed like they don't even exist.

Families get broken up every day when people are sent to jail.

Who said a deported illegal can't take their family back with them?

For the millionth time again. The illegal knew the risk of coming here, no one forced them to come here.

Poll after poll from all sides of the aisle, its not just the teabaggers, the huge majority of Americans believe its a problem and that Amnesty is not the way to go and want crackdowns on illegals and their employers

foodcourtdruide

07-08-2011, 01:33 PM

Why wouldnt it be possible? The laws in AZ,AL and GA are working, Illegals are fleeing

Almost every country did away from birthright citizenship, Take away that one incentive look how quick illegal immigration would slow down.

Fleeing to other states and fleeing back to their original country are two different things.

Why would what almost every country did matter to you? What's your opinion on the death penalty? Guess what almost every country has done away with and we haven't?

foodcourtdruide

07-08-2011, 01:35 PM

Families get broken up every day when people are sent to jail.

Who said a deported illegal can't take their family back with them?

For the millionth time again. The illegal knew the risk of coming here, no one forced them to come here.

Poll after poll from all sides of the aisle, its not just the teabaggers, the huge majority of Americans believe its a problem and that Amnesty is not the way to go and want crackdowns on illegals and their employers

Yeah, what you just said is exactly what I said. You really don't care about families or communities being broken up. You can try to rationalize and humanize your belief all you want, but my statement is true.

No one is denying that it's a problem. If someone came to me and took a poll and asked if illegal immigration was a problem in this country I would say yes.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 02:38 PM

Yeah, what you just said is exactly what I said. You really don't care about families or communities being broken up. You can try to rationalize and humanize your belief all you want, but my statement is true.

No one is denying that it's a problem. If someone came to me and took a poll and asked if illegal immigration was a problem in this country I would say yes.

What makes you think that? Did I say an illegal with multile DUI's who gets deported CAN'T bring his family back to his home country with him? Im for family unity How many times must I say it? They rolled the dice by coming here illegally, no one put a gun to their head and forced them here. I stand by my statement.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 02:41 PM

Fleeing to other states and fleeing back to their original country are two different things.

Why would what almost every country did matter to you? What's your opinion on the death penalty? Guess what almost every country has done away with and we haven't?

Bad argument. Every state in the country isnt required to have capital punishment

If you took away the taxpayer funded goodies and jobs and the birthright citizenship they will flee and that would be an incentive for people to stay in their countries.

Why are their kids called anchor babies? They are the anchor that secures their illegal parents to stay here in most cases

spoon

07-08-2011, 07:54 PM

If the issue was just people who drive 100MPH after downing a 5th of jack on Queens Blvd getting deported, then there really wouldn't be much of a debate. I don't know why you used this as an example, it's really far off from the people we're discussing.

Maybe, but that's not what your quote was about. Your quote was about a CITIZEN IN ANOTHER STATE that hadn't met the requirements for in-state tuition. Whether you like it or not, the illegal immigrant would have.

Again, why say "hopping a fence"? You always use derogatory language for illegal immigrants. It really shows your true colors and invalidates anything you say, because it's clear that any opinion you have is clouded with small-minded anger.

So in your mind, because you are not saying, "let's hunt down all brown people" (which you only don't say because it's "impossible"), you are taking a sensible approach?

Your notion of taking away all incentives is simply not possible, and also really wouldn't necessarily help our society. They would just satisfy your need to enforce a law.

Great post foody. +1

spoon

07-08-2011, 08:03 PM

This might be better than the HR derby
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/chi-toughest-sheriff-to-deploy-chain-gang-at-allstar-game-20110707,0,2528491.story

Chain gangs to clean up roads with suspected illegals from holding centers? As someone in the comments below correctly stated, it smacks of racism. This sheriff is a clown and loves himself to say the least. Drunk drivers ok, other offenses sure, but SUSPECTED people in holding cells? Oh and suspected of trying to come here and make a better life for themselves. Yah, bad idea cowboy.

What state is a bigger joke of late, Texas or Arizona? Hell this might have tipped the scale in their favor in the most ignorant douchey state contest. Who won that, God driven Mississippi? Take the wheel lord, we know not how to drive or take care of ourselves.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-08-2011, 08:35 PM

Chain gangs to clean up roads with suspected illegals from holding centers? As someone in the comments below correctly stated, it smacks of racism. This sheriff is a clown and loves himself to say the least. Drunk drivers ok, other offenses sure, but SUSPECTED people in holding cells? Oh and suspected of trying to come here and make a better life for themselves. Yah, bad idea cowboy.

What state is a bigger joke of late, Texas or Arizona? Hell this might have tipped the scale in their favor in the most ignorant douchey state contest. Who won that, God driven Mississippi? Take the wheel lord, we know not how to drive or take care of ourselves.

What racism? The illegals will be joining Americans in the chain gang so theres no discrimination. Plus in this article below it states the illegals were convicted of driving drunk

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2011/07/07/20110707mlb-all-star-fanfest-arpaio-chain-gang.html

A group of inmates from the sheriff's holding area for undocumented immigrants, all of whom were convicted of DUI, will join American male and female chains of DUI offenders to send a message about the perils of drunken driving when they pick up trash outside Chase Field next week, Arpaio said.

spoon

07-08-2011, 08:57 PM

What racism? The illegals will be joining Americans in the chain gang so theres no discrimination. Plus in this article below it states the illegals were convicted of driving drunk

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2011/07/07/20110707mlb-all-star-fanfest-arpaio-chain-gang.html

A group of inmates from the sheriff's holding area for undocumented immigrants, all of whom were convicted of DUI, will join American male and female chains of DUI offenders to send a message about the perils of drunken driving when they pick up trash outside Chase Field next week, Arpaio said.

THAT'S A MAJOR change in detail from the first story you posted. A HUGE detail and either swapped out by the second paper and backed by the sheriff, or a intentional and bs misleading story by the first. Which one is it?

The Arizona Republic reports a group of inmates from the Maricopa County sheriff's holding area for suspected illegal immigrants will be on the chain gang with drunken driving offenders. All will be chained together and decked out in their striped jail uniforms.

I've been looking into it and it's claimed the story was changed at the Az republic, but i haven't seen any screen caps. The first situation reported shows racial undertones, the second I could care less if it's true. Even if it's some huge grandstanding technique by an asshole sheriff.

Syd

07-08-2011, 10:45 PM

Why are their kids called anchor babies? They are the anchor that secures their illegal parents to stay here in most cases

Anchor babies are mostly just talking points bullshit to get yokels riled up. The reality of it is much different:

http://swampland.time.com/2010/08/11/dispelling-anchor-baby-myths/

WRESTLINGFAN

07-09-2011, 05:49 AM

WRESTLINGFAN

07-09-2011, 05:59 AM

I dont believe many illegals want to become citizens. They have more pride towards their home countries and could give a fuck about becoming an American.

If the illegals were given citizenship, lets say 70% are from Mexico. If the US declared war on Mexico, a huge majority would not fight for the US. During WW2 Thousands of Italian, German and Japanese fought against their former respective countries. I highly doubt the newly granted Amnestied citizens would fight against Mexico

I saw on the news last week where in the Rose Bowl during a soccer match of US vs Mexico, the crowd largely Hispanic probably a lot of illegal aliens was booing the US team.

sailor

07-09-2011, 07:49 AM

Who let them out of the internment camps to fight?

Seriously, do you understand how racist this sounds? We can trust these other immigrant peoples but not Hispanics? And I know a ton of Italians, Germans, English, etc-Americans who root for their former nation over the USA. Myself, I'll root for germany or Ireland, EXCEPT vs the USA. I think a lot of it has to do with the USA not being a soccer power for the most part, but also some of it probably comes from there being no American race, so there's no identifier on the same level (I don't know). Heck, I worked with a puerto rican girl who thrilled at puerto Rico upsetting the USA in basketball in like 2005 or so. Wanted to punch her in the face. It has very little to do with coming here illegally or not.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-09-2011, 08:56 AM

Always remember it was a Democratic President and the hero of the progressives who interned them.

Its not racist to point out that the largest group of immigrants, mainly illegal are hispanics and they are receiving billions in entitlements, foodstamps, healthcare, medicaid etc. I dont believe it should be illegal to cheer for a team thats outside of the US, However these immigrants many illegal should be grateful that they have a very comfortable life here. Before living here they were most likely living in a tin roof shack with no water or electricity or on the edge of some slum outside a major city. Here they have all the comforts and luxuries but they insist on wanting us to adapt to their needs. if their country is so great then they should have stayed.

Mexico is not a poor country. It is a corrupt country infested with narco terror, paid off politicians and police. They need to rise up and fix their own problems, They are exporting their poor into this country which in turn they send remittances back to the tune of 30 billion annually which is Mexicos 2nd biggest source of revenue

Im not trying to turn this into a we hate Mexicans comment, however California is paying out billions to illegal aliens and their extended families. I believe that is a cause of CA's many fiscal problems.

I do believe strongly that illegals are here to game the system, if not then why are they having so many anchor babies. In the disasterous 1965 Kennedy bill it made it easier for anchor babies to sponsor their parents when they become 21.

high fly

07-11-2011, 06:12 PM

This is an issue where we can look to the Founding Fathers for wisdom.
It's right there in the Declaration of Independence in the list of grievances against King George III, right near the top:

"... He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, ..."

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

Of course back then conservatives, known as "Tories" sided with the king and we can see when it comes to upholding American values, not much has changed...

Syd

07-11-2011, 08:47 PM

Almost every country did away from birthright citizenship, Take away that one incentive look how quick illegal immigration would slow down.

Yet every country has some form of national healthcare, strong unions and the metric system :clap:

WRESTLINGFAN

07-15-2011, 09:11 AM

Yet every country has some form of national healthcare, strong unions and the metric system :clap:

Should we be like Western Europe ?, they are in great fiscal shape

WRESTLINGFAN

07-15-2011, 09:23 AM

Just doing the jobs Americans wont do. Like working in Nuke plants

http://www.kvoa.com/news/illegal-immigrant-working-inside-nuke-plant-arrested/

Syd

07-15-2011, 10:18 AM

Just doing the jobs Americans wont do. Like working in Nuke plants

http://www.kvoa.com/news/illegal-immigrant-working-inside-nuke-plant-arrested/

Sounds like he was a janitor, which is something fat white suburbanites aren't into being.

spoon

07-15-2011, 11:03 AM

it's really a simple fix to me, this whole thing

bigger fines for hiring under the table, and huge fines for hiring illegals unless they are in the process of being naturalized and the whole thing is documented

it won't happen, bc we'll blame those being attracted to a better life, not those too cheap to pay workers in house a better rate and taxes (win win for cheap "job creators")

I know I'm being somewhat simplistic here, but is there really that much to think about. I have no problem with people wanting to be here, coming here and working here. Let's just make the process work so they can be protected as well as our jobs and tax dollars. Again, our tax revenues are the lowest since the 1950s. Add to it two wars and a recession and yes, let's blame the teachers and unions. Logic escapes everyone in politics with this conversation bc of vested interests and ties to one polarizing view or another.

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 12:13 PM

bigger fines for hiring under the table, and huge fines for hiring illegals unless they are in the process of being naturalized and the whole thing is documented

.

I don't think this would be simple. Think about the potential burden this could have on small business if its enforced with draconian measures. Also, would the cost of enforcement outweigh the potential negative costs to society?

Let's just make the process work so they can be protected as well as our jobs and tax dollars. Again, our tax revenues are the lowest since the 1950s. Add to it two wars and a recession and yes, let's blame the teachers and unions. Logic escapes everyone in politics with this conversation bc of vested interests and ties to one polarizing view or another.

I agree with all of this.

Snacks

07-15-2011, 12:17 PM

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 12:21 PM

whats the negative cost to society?

The potential negative costs of illegal immigration to society.

The whole "cut off your nose to spite your face" thing.

Snacks

07-15-2011, 12:26 PM

The potential negative costs of illegal immigration to society.

The whole "cut off your nose to spite your face" thing.

But if the business world didnt hire illegals maybe they would be forced to pay a fair wage. Having illegals here because they will work for less they the job should pay isnt a good reason to allow businesses to get away with paying these shitty wages while also illegally hiring people without proper documentation. In this case we are just allowing the entire system to be illegal from the company to the people working and coming here illegally.

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 12:34 PM

But if the business world didnt hire illegals maybe they would be forced to pay a fair wage. Having illegals here because they will work for less they the job should pay isnt a good reason to allow businesses to get away with paying these shitty wages while also illegally hiring people without proper documentation. In this case we are just allowing the entire system to be illegal from the company to the people working and coming here illegally.

Why do you think they would start paying a higher wage? What if those businesses just fold or continue to pay the same wages?

I don't think it's about the word "illegal", it's more about what's hurting or benefitting society.

spoon

07-15-2011, 12:36 PM

I don't think this would be simple. Think about the potential burden this could have on small business if its enforced with draconian measures. Also, would the cost of enforcement outweigh the potential negative costs to society?

I agree with all of this.

simple in that the rules are already pretty much there, we just never enforce them and they lack any bite. companies don't fear it, as they look to hire less expensive people, don't pay taxes and surely then don't pay min wage. not only do these people then come here and get treated worse than our rules say they should setting the country back overall, but they also don't have insurance. so i ask you, where do they go and how do they get care? oh yah, double dipping negative tax drain now.

I think it's simple in that the fear of prosecution and fines will scare most away from it, and truth be told enforcing what is already written shouldn't be labeled draconian at all. In fact, it would be smart. I think the positive impacts financially and to this country's wounded psyche easily outweigh the negative. It would hold business, small and large accountable, tax rev would get a big bump and worker's rights would start heading in the right direction at the bottom levels where most employees have little ability to protect themselves in fear of simply losing said job and the little money they earn. Truth be told, I can't understand how it was allowed to get to this point? Oh wait I do, money, greed and complete loss of our humanity overall for the sake of a few more bucks in our bottom lines as owners and to drive our stock up a few more pts.

Snacks

07-15-2011, 12:39 PM

Why do you think they would start paying a higher wage? What if those businesses just fold or continue to pay the same wages?

I don't think it's about the word "illegal", it's more about what's hurting or benefitting society.

If a company would rather fold and go out of business rather then do business the legal and proper way then they shouldnt be in business. If you own a construction company and hire illegals because they will take half of what the avg construction worker will take then I have no sympathy for either. The illegal is taking a job that should go to someone who is legal and lowering the wages for all because they will take less. The company isnt charging any less for their construction they are just profiting more. Both arent paying any taxes and both are hurting more then they are helping. In fact the only people they are helping is themselves.

spoon

07-15-2011, 12:40 PM

Why do you think they would start paying a higher wage? What if those businesses just fold or continue to pay the same wages?

I don't think it's about the word "illegal", it's more about what's hurting or benefitting society.

come on, most of the jobs left CAN'T just move on

the jobs they fill right now are usually low level and service industry positions

enough of this whole companies will just leave, bc if workers rights, a fair wage and legal workers is an issue, i want them to leave

society as a whole is being manipulated by business at every turn at this false perception it benefits US the common schlub and middle class. if you truly believe it does and business has anything but making money as it's interest, especially today, you're mistaken

Snacks

07-15-2011, 12:41 PM

simple in that the rules are already pretty much there, we just never enforce them and they lack any bite. companies don't fear it, as they look to hire less expensive people, don't pay taxes and surely then don't pay min wage. not only do these people then come here and get treated worse than our rules say they should setting the country back overall, but they also don't have insurance. so i ask you, where do they go and how do they get care? oh yah, double dipping negative tax drain now.

I think it's simple in that the fear of prosecution and fines will scare most away from it, and truth be told enforcing what is already written shouldn't be labeled draconian at all. In fact, it would be smart. I think the positive impacts financially and to this country's wounded psyche easily outweigh the negative. It would hold business, small and large accountable, tax rev would get a big bump and worker's rights would start heading in the right direction at the bottom levels where most employees have little ability to protect themselves in fear of simply losing said job and the little money they earn. Truth be told, I can't understand how it was allowed to get to this point? Oh wait I do, money, greed and complete loss of our humanity overall for the sake of a few more bucks in our bottom lines as owners and to drive our stock up a few more pts.

You make my point but sound better doing so!

spoon

07-15-2011, 12:50 PM

the whole goal of companies hiring illegals, repubs crushing the unions and blaming everyone but the job creators for our issues in this country is to crush our current way of life bringing it down to lower, more ceo profit friendly levels. they don't like a strong middle class getting a good share of profits at all, the top is greedy and the numbers show a very bad trend. our country is at it's strongest when it has a very strong core, middle class with less poverty. right now it's being destroyed with more gaining the poverty line and the rich continue to make more.

look at people like the woman who "saved" HP and they touted as someone who could help our economy here. it's so off it's comical, bc we can't send the remaining jobs in the US to China and Mexico and save it like she did to capitalize on a cheap/abused workforce.

start a new good trend here and begin to protect our market more and more before it's destroyed to levels beyond repair. also institute a world worker rights timeline for countries we trade with and will continue to trade with. they can't be the same everywhere, but we are talking world based economy here, so claiming it's not possible isn't true as profits dictate value. instead of companies running to cheaper work forces and ours continually taking hits, help protect them as well from these same companies. of course not easy, but campaign finance reform will go a long way in helping get big business out of our politicians pockets for a little while

WRESTLINGFAN

07-15-2011, 12:52 PM

we are not talking about farm workers and toilet scrubbers, dish washers anymore. They have crept into every part of our work force and most of it can be blamed on the employer. Cheap bidding for contracts kicks the legal worker out and relies on the illegal at cheap wages. Then the wages stick for future jobs even for the legal worker. Money talks and the big contributers from the businesses keep the politicians in line

spoon

07-15-2011, 12:55 PM

WRESTLINGFAN

07-15-2011, 12:57 PM

bt this and the Jeter thread I have never agreed with you more

i feel dirty
:unsure:

There is no way we can have Jeter deported. He was born in NJ

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 01:00 PM

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 01:01 PM

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 01:02 PM

the whole goal of companies hiring illegals, repubs crushing the unions and blaming everyone but the job creators for our issues in this country is to crush our current way of life bringing it down to lower, more ceo profit friendly levels.

I agree with you for the most part. However, mass deportation and heavy fines aren't the way to go. If someone can prove that they are willing to work, why not take the "illegal immigrant" stigma off them? Why give businesses the opportunity to endure heavy fines?

spoon

07-15-2011, 01:14 PM

There is no way we can have Jeter deported. He was born in NJ

he was almost deported to KC! That would have been better than Down and Out with the boring pussy Jeter is.

spoon

07-15-2011, 01:16 PM

Don't you think a potential reason we don't enforce it, is because we don't know if it's beneficial to our economy? The people who lose jobs to illegal immigrants are generally high school drop outs. Do you think if illegal immigration went away dishwashers would suddenly make $40 an hour?

No, I think they'd get paid a little better and often not be under the table so taxes are collected. Also, there would be much more clout for the LEGAL worker to have rights here and get a little better hours, working conditions and possibly get health care. who knows, it's just right, not hiring illegals to pay less and take advantage of them.

spoon

07-15-2011, 01:23 PM

I agree with you for the most part. However, mass deportation and heavy fines aren't the way to go. If someone can prove that they are willing to work, why not take the "illegal immigrant" stigma off them? Why give businesses the opportunity to endure heavy fines?

I have not once said I support mass deportation, bc I do not. why give businesses the opp to endure heavy fines? I don't understand this question. If you break laws in business you should be fined. Corporations are just to used to doing almost anything they want right now and it seems odd to you I guess to hold them accountable? Wall Street got to break the rules, that too had/has terrible ramifications, but it did benefit those that fleeced it. Same story here.

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 01:29 PM

No, I think they'd get paid a little better and often not be under the table so taxes are collected. Also, there would be much more clout for the LEGAL worker to have rights here and get a little better hours, working conditions and possibly get health care. who knows, it's just right, not hiring illegals to pay less and take advantage of them.

In the fast food industry, they don't have an issue with illegal immigrants taking jobs. The pay is terrible and they have few benefits, if any. Getting rid of illegal immigration isn't going to make corporations care about their non-skilled labor.

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 01:31 PM

I have not once said I support mass deportation, bc I do not. why give businesses the opp to endure heavy fines? I don't understand this question. If you break laws in business you should be fined. Corporations are just to used to doing almost anything they want right now and it seems odd to you I guess to hold them accountable? Wall Street got to break the rules, that too had/has terrible ramifications, but it did benefit those that fleeced it. Same story here.

I think we believe the same thing. My point is why force regulation at the point of issuing fines, why not correct this issue at a much earlier stage.

Snacks

07-15-2011, 01:35 PM

In the fast food industry, they don't have an issue with illegal immigrants taking jobs. The pay is terrible and they have few benefits, if any. Getting rid of illegal immigration isn't going to make corporations care about their non-skilled labor.

Depends. If you are talking about Mcdonalds and burger king? I know that many suburban franchises seem to have mainly high school teens working there. I doubt they are illegals but I guess they could be. If you are talking about urban areas, well maybe if they paid a little more and refused to hire illegals they would get more workers. Why help companies continue their bad practices by allowing them to get away with it. If the illegals werent here illegally they would demand more too. So fine the business for these practices to make it not worth it to hire illegals. While doing this and making it harder for illegals to work we might actually fix that problem too! No one is right in these situations, companies are making money off the poor while not paying a good wage. The illegals are lowering wages because they are willing to work for less because they are illegal.

Snacks

07-15-2011, 01:36 PM

I think we believe the same thing. My point is why force regulation at the point of issuing fines, why not correct this issue at a much earlier stage.

and how do you correct the issue when you seem to be in favor of illegals working? do you want to reward everyone who is illegal with citizenship?

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 01:40 PM

and how do you correct the issue when you seem to be in favor of illegals working? do you want to reward everyone who is illegal with citizenship?

I want people who come here and will prove they are willing to work to be able to do so and like, you and spoon, I want people who would exploit such individuals to be bought to justice.

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 01:42 PM

Depends. If you are talking about Mcdonalds and burger king? I know that many suburban franchises seem to have mainly high school teens working there. I doubt they are illegals but I guess they could be. If you are talking about urban areas, well maybe if they paid a little more and refused to hire illegals they would get more workers. Why help companies continue their bad practices by allowing them to get away with it. If the illegals werent here illegally they would demand more too. So fine the business for these practices to make it not worth it to hire illegals. While doing this and making it harder for illegals to work we might actually fix that problem too! No one is right in these situations, companies are making money off the poor while not paying a good wage. The illegals are lowering wages because they are willing to work for less because they are illegal.

I don't understand. How does any of this explain companies like McDonalds, Walmart who do hire legal American citizens offering a non-living wage? There is no competition from illegal immigrants in those places. I'm sorry, I don't see any evidence that if illegal immigration went away today, non-skilled labor would receive a significant salary increase. It's really a hypothetical situation, but I think it's just as likely that those types of jobs would simply go away.

spoon

07-15-2011, 01:52 PM

spoon

07-15-2011, 01:54 PM

and how do you correct the issue when you seem to be in favor of illegals working? do you want to reward everyone who is illegal with citizenship?

we just can't do this and surely can't continue to look away...unless we want our country to continue to be sucked dry

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 02:05 PM

we can't simply take on any illegal willing to work, then we aren't protecting our market in any way (our workers, our workers rights, our pay scale and so much more).

by holding business accountable, you curtail this influx of illegals coming (at this rate especially) bc the jobs dry up

those that still come will be more apt to make a better life at home and help improve Mexico as well, versus it losing so many willing workers looking for something better

the bottom line is we continue to lose jobs and gain workers and yes they influence things from the bottom up and we can't sustain it and the other factors like the missing tax rev and drain/impact on our already failing health care system

I agree with what you're saying here, but:

1. Legal citizens don't even have to necessarily get paid a living wage in this country. I agree that companies that exploit illegal immigrants and pay them less than minimum wage should be bought up on CRIMINAL charges (not fined).
2. I don't think you should just allow anyone into this country and let them start working BUT people will come into this country illegally and work. What do we do with them once they're here? I agree with some level of enforcement, particularly at our borders.
3. If you believe that illegal immigrants are costing society, since they don't pay taxes then wouldn't have more of these people working legally HELP things like our health care system?

Again, I think a lot of our ideas are similar. I don't want a big sign at the border welcoming people in, but it's going to happen, and we need to think about what gets done with people who are here. We can look under every rock and try to find and deport them, we can incessantly fine companies that will undoubtedly abuse the system or we can integrate them into society so WE as a whole benefit.

foodcourtdruide

07-15-2011, 02:06 PM

we just can't do this and surely can't continue to look away...unless we want our country to continue to be sucked dry

I agree that we shouldn't look away, but I don't agree that our country is getting sucked dry at the moment. It's extremely debatable if illegal immigrants have a positive or negative impact on our economy.

spoon

07-15-2011, 02:23 PM

I agree that we shouldn't look away, but I don't agree that our country is getting sucked dry at the moment. It's extremely debatable if illegal immigrants have a positive or negative impact on our economy.

I know plenty of people hoping to get work here legally in any job from other countries not as close as Mexico, they easily and legally would fill most if not all your positions and have a MUCH bigger positive impact on our economy and country as a whole. We'd have better diversity and people coming here the right way for the right reasons. If the illegal jobs dried up and we didn't allow them to exploit all our systems the influx would at least slow if not stop.

Snacks

07-15-2011, 05:36 PM

I don't understand. How does any of this explain companies like McDonalds, Walmart who do hire legal American citizens offering a non-living wage? There is no competition from illegal immigrants in those places. I'm sorry, I don't see any evidence that if illegal immigration went away today, non-skilled labor would receive a significant salary increase. It's really a hypothetical situation, but I think it's just as likely that those types of jobs would simply go away.

because they would have to hire people for these jobs and if they paid a little more and offered health insurance that avg high school drop out would do these jobs. The fact that the employers know they dont have to offer health insurance or even min wages they dont bother hiring people who would take these jobs. When a company needs to fill positions they add to their offers like higher salaries etc. If there werent any illegals taking these jobs then these companies would have to offer higher wages in order to fill the positions.

Its like anything, supply and demand. If they have a huge undocumented workforce that will take pennies on the dollar then why bother offering more. But if you have a limited workforce and want to have them work for you rather then the competitor you pay more. I still remember about 10/15 years ago when the economy was great I would see signs and ads in the sunday star ledger for Wendys and White castle couldnt hire enough people. They started to offer $10 and hour health insurance, flexible schedules and growth op. They were doing everything to fill positions. If the illegals didnt take these types of positions then these companies would have to do that too.

Snacks

07-15-2011, 05:42 PM

I know plenty of people hoping to get work here legally in any job from other countries not as close as Mexico, they easily and legally would fill most if not all your positions and have a MUCH bigger positive impact on our economy and country as a whole. We'd have better diversity and people coming here the right way for the right reasons. If the illegal jobs dried up and we didn't allow them to exploit all our systems the influx would at least slow if not stop.

Agreed. I also know we cant do mass deportation or a round up. But what I dont understand is how anyone is against sending back the ones they do find? If you get pulled over and dont have legal documentation or if you get arrested, 1st thing to look up is if you are legal or illegal. If you are illegal no matter how small the crime, no matter why you were stopped you should be sent back to your country and never allowed to come here legally.

There is a right way to come here, could we make it easier? Maybe but then again maybe not. We are becoming an overpopulated country. This isnt the early 20th century when we were trying to build our country and entice citizens to come here. We are now full, time to start limiting immigration to those who go through the proper channels.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-15-2011, 06:54 PM

Agreed. I also know we cant do mass deportation or a round up. But what I dont understand is how anyone is against sending back the ones they do find? If you get pulled over and dont have legal documentation or if you get arrested, 1st thing to look up is if you are legal or illegal. If you are illegal no matter how small the crime, no matter why you were stopped you should be sent back to your country and never allowed to come here legally.

There is a right way to come here, could we make it easier? Maybe but then again maybe not. We are becoming an overpopulated country. This isnt the early 20th century when we were trying to build our country and entice citizens to come here. We are now full, time to start limiting immigration to those who go through the proper channels.

Thats what Arizona and Georgia wants to do. If people are suspected of being illegal aliens they can be turned over to ICE. However Obama, Holder and the pro open border crowd spun it that cops would just stop hispanics on the street and ask for papers for no reason. There needs to be an underlying cause. An example is that a van full of people crammed all over the place, no one speaks english, the driver is going over the speed limit he doesnt speak english and has no license or registration.

Citizens need to carry ID when driving in case they are pulled over. Want to buy cigarettes and beer? As much of a pain in the ass as it is, the stores can ask for ID. Same thing for getting into a bar.

In the end, the illegal aliens knew the risks . Its on them if they decided to have children. Ill say it again. Im for family unity, if someone is deported they can take their family back with them.

Snacks

07-15-2011, 06:58 PM

Thats what Arizona and Georgia wants to do. If people are suspected of being illegal aliens they can be turned over to ICE. However Obama, Holder and the pro open border crowd spun it that cops would just stop hispanics on the street and ask for papers for no reason. There needs to be an underlying cause. An example is that a van full of people crammed all over the place, no one speaks english, the driver is going over the speed limit he doesnt speak english and has no license or registration.

In the end, the illegal aliens knew the risks . Its on them if they decided to have children. Ill say it again. Im for family unity, if someone is deported they can take their family back with them.

I dont think we should walk up to random people and check their status. If you happen to be speeding or get arrested or whatever then ok but we shouldnt make it that the police walk up to random dark skinned people and ask for papers.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-15-2011, 07:01 PM

I dont think we should walk up to random people and check their status. If you happen to be speeding or get arrested or whatever then ok but we shouldnt make it that the police walk up to random dark skinned people and ask for papers.

Agreed. I dont want a police state just asking certain people for papers without probable cause. The AZ law prohibits that.

spoon

07-15-2011, 08:58 PM

Agreed. I dont want a police state just asking certain people for papers without probable cause. The AZ law prohibits that.

prohibits, but lets see you enforce and prove THAT ONE

WRESTLINGFAN

07-19-2011, 12:40 PM

Once again Schumer wants to bring up Amnesty. How many times do we need to say No before the helmet heads get it?

"The witnesses includes NASDAQ chief Robert Greifield, Cornell University President David Skorton, Microsoft General Counsel Brad Smith, and Amgen medical director Puneet Arora, who is testifying in his role as a leader of Immigration Voice, which favors boosting legal immigration of high-skilled workers. The second panel will include testimony from the mayors of Utica, N.Y., Lewiston, Maine, and Uvalda, Ga.
'

we will have unskilled illiterate people short selling tech stocks and issuing call and put options? Fuck let them trade derivatives like CDO's

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/59311.html#ixzz1SaOeKKwS

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/59311.html

WRESTLINGFAN

07-19-2011, 12:41 PM

prohibits, but lets see you enforce and prove THAT ONE

Is a cop going to risk getting sued by just asking someone for ID with no underlying reason?

foodcourtdruide

07-19-2011, 12:53 PM

Is a cop going to risk getting sued by just asking someone for ID with no underlying reason?

Yes, anytime a police officer has ever done anything outside the bounds of the rules they are always, 100% of the time sued.

Judge Smails

07-19-2011, 01:17 PM

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/mon_montrose/i1/trailcampics1.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/mon_montrose/i1/trailcampics2.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/mon_montrose/i1/trailcampics3.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/mon_montrose/i1/trailcampics4.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/mon_montrose/i1/trailcampics5.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/mon_montrose/i1/trailcampics6.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/mon_montrose/i1/trailcampics7.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/mon_montrose/i1/trailcampics8.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/mon_montrose/i1/trailcampics9.jpg

WRESTLINGFAN

07-19-2011, 02:47 PM

Yes, anytime a police officer has ever done anything outside the bounds of the rules they are always, 100% of the time sued.

In some cases. Yes

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/07/newark_police_settlement_to_co.html

foodcourtdruide

07-19-2011, 03:05 PM

In some cases. Yes

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/07/newark_police_settlement_to_co.html

lol WF, are you serious? You really don't see the difference between this and what we've been talking about?

You don't think, maybe this small piece of the article makes it unique:

Lima also claimed DeMaio ordered officers at the scene to seize Carlos’ camera and later handcuff him at a police precinct to stop him from publishing photos of the body in the newspaper.

and this:

DeMaio, who declined comment yesterday, was reprimanded by then Attorney General Anne Millgram for the "green card" remark because it violated a directive prohibiting police from asking crime witnesses about their immigration status.

Syd

07-19-2011, 03:07 PM

In some cases. Yes

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/07/newark_police_settlement_to_co.html

In the vast, vast majority cases. No.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

foodcourtdruide

07-19-2011, 03:10 PM

In the vast, vast majority cases. No.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

But Syd, there was one lawsuit in Jersey where someone was basically accused of being an illegal immigrant and detained in order to likely limit free speech, so WF has a valid point.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-20-2011, 07:12 AM

SoCal isnt the only place overrun by them. No surprise since SF welcomes them with open arms.

http://www.mercurynews.com/census/ci_18509257

WRESTLINGFAN

07-20-2011, 09:36 AM

Doing the job the federal gov't wont do. I just donated

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/59452.html

spoon

07-20-2011, 02:01 PM

of course you did

cougarjake13

07-20-2011, 05:39 PM

Doing the job the federal gov't wont do. I just donated

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/59452.html

i did as well

i took a shit in a box and marked it guaranteed

Syd

07-20-2011, 07:26 PM

$50 million for a wall? what's it going to be like 500' long and 4' high? I don't think they get construction costs in the middle of the fucking desert

spoon

07-20-2011, 08:42 PM

$50 million for a wall? what's it going to be like 500' long and 4' high? I don't think they get construction costs in the middle of the fucking desert

It's an Iwall and has the new anti-immigration app you silly gringo.

A.J.

07-21-2011, 03:38 AM

Doing the job the federal gov't wont do. I just donated

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/59452.html

Two words: Maginot Line.

disneyspy

07-21-2011, 04:12 AM

Two words: Maginot Line.

maybe they could use a map of walking places in DC

WRESTLINGFAN

07-21-2011, 11:17 AM

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/GM110721CLR-ClosedBo20110721035907.jpg

WRESTLINGFAN

07-21-2011, 02:25 PM

i did as well

i took a shit in a box and marked it guaranteed

I hope it was addressed to Felipe Calderon

spoon

07-21-2011, 11:47 PM

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/GM110721CLR-ClosedBo20110721035907.jpg

I love when WF posts articles that aren't even close to factual and he takes them at face value. He only trumps himself when he posts ridiculous pics like the one above, much less the content being off as well.

The last time Borders made a profit was 2006. Its yearly income has dropped by $1 billion in the four years since then.[13]
In March 2008, Borders Group announced the intention to sell the chain because of financial difficulties. There were rumors that Borders Books approached Barnes and Noble in hopes of a buyout. The chain was in debt, having increased its financial instability by borrowing $42.5 million USD in March from Pershing Square Capital Management, the company's major stockholder, to keep the company running through the remainder of the fiscal year. The loan was said to have a very high interest rate of 12.5%, which meant that the chain would have to post a significant profit to stay afloat in the future.

Clearly Obama's policies killed Borders since they were in bad trouble since 2006 and so bad by March 08 they had to take a crazy loan with false hopes of bailing out. I guess it was those first few weeks of his presidency (01/20/08 all the way until 03/01/08) that just SANK this company right? Just like this economy issues is all his fault as well. Fucking blinders on doesn't even begin to describe most of your political posts.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-22-2011, 03:55 AM

I love when WF posts articles that aren't even close to factual and he takes them at face value. He only trumps himself when he posts ridiculous pics like the one above, much less the content being off as well.

Clearly Obama's policies killed Borders since they were in bad trouble since 2006 and so bad by March 08 they had to take a crazy loan with false hopes of bailing out. I guess it was those first few weeks of his presidency (01/20/08 all the way until 03/01/08) that just SANK this company right? Just like this economy issues is all his fault as well. Fucking blinders on doesn't even begin to describe most of your political posts.

Obamas stimulus package was supposed to rescue the economy , add jobs and lower unemployment. Obama took a shitstorm and made it worse, but you will do anything to defend his failed policies. 787 Billion dollars that were NOT on the balance sheet borrowed from china has gotten us to where we are today. 9.2 percent unemployment a dollar that is tanking and no sign of recovery.

Want to talk about blinders? He starts another war and doesnt go thru congress. Who the fuck are we assisting in Libya anyway? Did Libya attack us was Khadafy a threat?

This fucking President blew it big time. It was his chance to fix all the fuckups of the Bush admin. Instead we just got another incompetent politician from Chicago

TripleSkeet

07-22-2011, 04:29 AM

Obamas stimulus package was supposed to rescue the economy , add jobs and lower unemployment. Obama took a shitstorm and made it worse, but you will do anything to defend his failed policies. 787 Billion dollars that were NOT on the balance sheet borrowed from china has gotten us to where we are today. 9.2 percent unemployment a dollar that is tanking and no sign of recovery.

Want to talk about blinders? He starts another war and doesnt go thru congress. Who the fuck are we assisting in Libya anyway? Did Libya attack us was Khadafy a threat?

This fucking President blew it big time. It was his chance to fix all the fuckups of the Bush admin. Instead we just got another incompetent politician from Chicago

Are you really blaming Obama because Borders went out of business?

WRESTLINGFAN

07-22-2011, 05:21 AM

Are you really blaming Obama because Borders went out of business?

Look at the cartoon its mocking him saying that the southern border is closed

Also him and Big sis claim the actual border with Mexico is as safe as ever and the fence is complete. Both lies.

sailor

07-22-2011, 05:33 AM

I don't think political cartoons are ever meant to be exactly literal.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-22-2011, 08:47 AM

Drive drunk and get tossed out

http://news.yahoo.com/drunken-driving-traffic-crime-deportations-way-072604914.html

StanUpshaw

07-22-2011, 09:55 AM

$20 for the best Wrestlingfan political cartoon.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-22-2011, 09:56 AM

$20 for the best Wrestlingfan political cartoon.

In this thread shouldn't it be pesos? :lol:

spoon

07-22-2011, 10:05 AM

I don't think political cartoons are ever meant to be exactly literal.

Thanks mr literal, but wf uses them to make actual literal points and the average reader of those papers eat it up as pure fact in cartoon form.

U think wf posts those awful caricatures without believing them in every way? Even the most ludicrous tie ins for a laugh? Just read his response to ANYONE who ever points out how wrong or off any of his posts/links/pics are.

spoon

07-22-2011, 10:10 AM

In this thread shouldn't it be pesos? :lol:

Ohhhh man is that funny. You have to have writers. Or should I say escritors?! Ho hooooo!

WRESTLINGFAN

07-22-2011, 10:12 AM

Thanks mr literal, but wf uses them to make actual literal points and the average reader of those papers eat it up as pure fact in cartoon form.

U think wf posts those awful caricatures without believing them in every way? Even the most ludicrous tie ins for a laugh? Just read his response to ANYONE who ever points out how wrong or off any of his posts/links/pics are.

Drive drunk and get tossed out

http://news.yahoo.com/drunken-driving-traffic-crime-deportations-way-072604914.html

Whats so wrong about this? Should drunken illegals behind the wheel be allowed to stay?

foodcourtdruide

07-22-2011, 10:17 AM

Whats so wrong about this? Should drunken illegals behind the wheel be allowed to stay?

How does spoons post and your article on illegal immigrants being deported more for drunk driving under Obama have any tie in?

spoon

07-22-2011, 10:18 AM

Didn't read that one yet, but the way u are pigeon holing this one as an overall point screams to ur shitty debating tactics. I'll go read and see if it's that rare jeter moment where the issue isn't so political and perhaps just based so much in common sense even u are on that side of the fence. However, those dripped in public policy or the mere mention of Obama and u can rest assured that post will be a mess of twisted facts and veiled hate.

spoon

07-22-2011, 10:21 AM

How does spoons post and your article on illegal immigrants being deported more for drunk driving under Obama have any tie in?

Exactly. Dudman points this wf type of debating style out the best but just isn't here enough to be the political bs meter mod. We need one just for wf alone. Then dude! , his posts are completely devoid of facts, even those twisted ones wf uses. Just outright disdain and hate...sambo, am I right!?

WRESTLINGFAN

07-22-2011, 10:22 AM

WRESTLINGFAN

07-22-2011, 10:23 AM

Exactly. Dudman points this type the best but just isn't here enough to be the political bs meter mod. We need one just for wf alone. Then dude! , his posts are completely devoid of facts, even those twisted ones wf uses. Just outright disdain and hate...sambo, am I right!?

Who is using hate speech?

foodcourtdruide

07-22-2011, 10:28 AM

Twisted facts that the majority of Americans are against illegal immigration?

Not agreeing to most of Obama policies is considered hate?

The article you posted is actually saying Obama's actions are siding with harsher enforcement on illegal immigrants than Bush.

Also, you posted that article, and when no one was outraged or disagreeing with it, you pretended spoon was disagreeing with it. It was very odd. It may have just been a mistake on your part, but it goes further your "I'm going to argue with the invisible uber-liberal" debate tactic.

spoon

07-22-2011, 10:31 AM

For fs sake wf, that's what I said?

By your logic I can go out and run one of my cars into a school and when someone says I drove my car into a school just get beside my other car and say I crashed THIS car into a school?

Run on iffy example alert and I refuse to fix it bc im on my phone and its hhhhooootttt! Yet u get my point I hope.

spoon

07-22-2011, 10:34 AM

The article you posted is actually saying Obama's actions are siding with harsher enforcement on illegal immigrants than Bush.

Also, you posted that article, and when no one was outraged or disagreeing with it, you pretended spoon was disagreeing with it. It was very odd. It may have just been a mistake on your part, but it goes further your "I'm going to argue with the invisible uber-liberal" debate tactic.

Not to mention he just jumps all over the place as normal.

StanUpshaw

07-22-2011, 10:46 AM

http://i.imgur.com/Ciors.jpg

StanUpshaw

07-22-2011, 10:53 AM

Not to mention he just jumps all over the place as normal.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

foodcourtdruide

07-22-2011, 11:09 AM

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

That's pretty awesome.

spoon

07-22-2011, 11:16 AM

Can we rename that?

WRESTLINGFAN

07-22-2011, 11:55 AM

sailor

07-23-2011, 01:38 AM

Thanks mr literal, but wf uses them to make actual literal points and the average reader of those papers eat it up as pure fact in cartoon form.

U think wf posts those awful caricatures without believing them in every way? Even the most ludicrous tie ins for a laugh? Just read his response to ANYONE who ever points out how wrong or off any of his posts/links/pics are.

pointing out the error of someone else being a mr literal makes me mr literal? :boggles:

spoon

07-23-2011, 08:56 AM

I'm sensing a theme here. Yes passive-aggresive on-liner marching order Sailor, u nailed it again. It had nothing at all to do with ur interpretation of MY post at all. Can u make correlations bt other directions of thought at all, or is it completely linear? Next time I hope u can chime in on a conversation and make discussion halting generalities like replublicans are conservatives or drugs are bad. Until next time mr mackey, which I'm sure by ur pigeon-holing won't be much time at all. It's cute.

sailor

07-23-2011, 09:54 AM

spoon

07-23-2011, 11:31 AM

abso-lutely

WRESTLINGFAN

07-25-2011, 07:43 AM

Whats the problem?

Theyre here illegally

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/immigration/7664218.html

spoon

07-25-2011, 09:03 AM

So what are your thoughts on Rick Perry WF?

Jujubees2

07-25-2011, 09:11 AM

Whats the problem?

Theyre here illegally

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/immigration/7664218.html

Maybe I'm missing something but where in the article does it say that these are illegal immigrants?

WRESTLINGFAN

07-25-2011, 09:13 AM

So what are your thoughts on Rick Perry WF?

How did the last gov from Texas pan out?

Perry is way too religious

WRESTLINGFAN

07-25-2011, 09:16 AM

Maybe I'm missing something but where in the article does it say that these are illegal immigrants?

Day laborers +Latinos+Texas=Illegal Aliens

Jujubees2

07-25-2011, 09:28 AM

Day laborers +Latinos+Texas=Illegal Aliens

Wow, love the advanced math!

WRESTLINGFAN

07-25-2011, 09:54 AM

Wow, love the advanced math!

Do you really believe those day laborers are here legally?

spoon

07-25-2011, 11:32 AM

Do you really believe those day laborers are here legally?

Perhaps he just doesn't have your math down and actually likes to see things confirmed before speculating for your own needs. I mean you are actually finding articles and just assuming they are illegals by that calculation to make shitty points?

What site are you using to parrot all this shit too? Honestly, you HAVE to be getting spoon fed all these comics and pseudo (most of them) articles and blogs you link constantly. It's not like you are having one long conversation in here or other threads, you just constantly throw crazy shit at the wall.

Stan's post on debating fits you sooooo well it's comical, but what is your point? Are you just spouting this crazy shit to piss people off or do you even care about trying to prove your points in an effort to sway people to your way of reasoning? It just seems you have no purpose in the end. When I argue politics, sports or radio I'm trying to get others to see my point and change their opinion or at least modify it. Don't get me wrong I like to argue and get a kick out of it, but what point is just posting the same thing over and over again?

spoon

07-25-2011, 11:35 AM

Wow, love the advanced math!

"in this thread it's" calculo

WRESTLINGFAN

07-25-2011, 11:59 AM

Perhaps he just doesn't have your math down and actually likes to see things confirmed before speculating for your own needs. I mean you are actually finding articles and just assuming they are illegals by that calculation to make shitty points?

What site are you using to parrot all this shit too? Honestly, you HAVE to be getting spoon fed all these comics and pseudo (most of them) articles and blogs you link constantly. It's not like you are having one long conversation in here or other threads, you just constantly throw crazy shit at the wall.

Stan's post on debating fits you sooooo well it's comical, but what is your point? Are you just spouting this crazy shit to piss people off or do you even care about trying to prove your points in an effort to sway people to your way of reasoning? It just seems you have no purpose in the end. When I argue politics, sports or radio I'm trying to get others to see my point and change their opinion or at least modify it. Don't get me wrong I like to argue and get a kick out of it, but what point is just posting the same thing over and over again?

Tell me where and when the majority of day laborers are NOT illegal. Whats crazy about that? I dont know which part of the country you live in but in every area of the US groups of men at a home depot or along the side of the road are hispanic and almost all are illegal aliens.

Who wants to piss people off? Illegal immigration is a serious issue and a huge majority of the country wants this problem to be dealt with. Most do not want legalization a path to citizenship or Amnesty, whichever term you want.

These day laborers (most likely illegal) suing for discrimination when they arent supposed to be here. You dont find a problem with that?

foodcourtdruide

07-25-2011, 12:23 PM

Whats the problem?

Theyre here illegally

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/immigration/7664218.html

Do you consider yourself a libertarian? If so, I'd really reconsider that.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-25-2011, 12:29 PM

Do you consider yourself a libertarian? If so, I'd really reconsider that.

Do you agree with 100% of the issues of your party/political affiliation whichever it is ?

A lot of libertarians want open borders, thats their philosophy, however they want people to come here and pull their own weight and to make it without entitlements paid for by the taxpayer.

Ill post this again. As I agree with this

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kinsella/kinsella18.html

foodcourtdruide

07-25-2011, 12:37 PM

Do you agree with 100% of the issues of your party/political affiliation whichever it is ?

Democrat, and no. However, less government is a basic tenet of libertarianism. Giving the government the ability to basically harass people, whether they are legal or not, seems like it would go against everything libertarians believe in.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-25-2011, 12:39 PM

Democrat, and no. However, less government is a basic tenet of libertarianism. Giving the government the ability to basically harass people, whether they are legal or not, seems like it would go against everything libertarians believe in.

big government is a massive welfare state thats everything a libertarian is against.

foodcourtdruide

07-25-2011, 12:45 PM

big government is a massive welfare state thats everything a libertarian is against.

But you wouldn't mind living in a police state, as long as it makes life tougher for illegal immigrants?

WRESTLINGFAN

07-25-2011, 12:48 PM

But you wouldn't mind living in a police state, as long as it makes life tougher for illegal immigrants?

A police state would be just stopping brown people for no reason. I dont want that.

Denying services for people who can not prove legal status isnt a police state.

foodcourtdruide

07-25-2011, 12:53 PM

A police state would be just stopping brown people for no reason. I dont want that.

This doesn't sound like a police state:

Charging day laborers with criminal trespass, police drove them away from a small convenience store where they solicited work with the permission of the owner, according to the lawsuit.

They were charged with criminal trespass for being someplace the owner allowed them to be? You're right WF, that makes this town sound like a beacon of freedom. They should transcribe this story on the statue of liberty as an example of freedom.

foodcourtdruide

07-25-2011, 12:54 PM

Denying services for people who can not prove legal status isnt a police state.

Services? What? Not harrassing someone is considered a "service"?

WRESTLINGFAN

07-25-2011, 12:59 PM

Services? What? Not harrassing someone is considered a "service"?

They could have been drinking or urinating in public, blocking traffic. Youre looking at this with blinders.

foodcourtdruide

07-25-2011, 01:00 PM

They could have been drinking or urinating in public, blocking traffic. Youre looking at this with blinders.

LOL. What!?

WRESTLINGFAN

07-25-2011, 03:06 PM

LOL. What!?

There could have been underlying conditions like what I just mentioned.

Jujubees2

07-26-2011, 04:47 AM

They could have been drinking or urinating in public, blocking traffic. Youre looking at this with blinders.

Yeah and they could of had WMDs too!

WRESTLINGFAN

07-26-2011, 05:18 AM

Yeah and they could of had WMDs too!

A friend of mine lives in Mt Kisco NY about 45 min from the city one of many Westchester suburbs overrun by illegals. Since the recession started and the housing bubble burst the illegals arent working as much. A few years ago when the economy was better by 8:00am all the day laborers would be picked up for the day.

Now since work is scarce, they are all loitering by the train station and the downtown area, harassing people drinking heavily fighting etc.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-26-2011, 11:47 AM

Barnaby Jones

07-26-2011, 12:22 PM

Because this way is right and your way is wrong. It's amazing you still don't get that after all this time.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-26-2011, 12:30 PM

Amazing when it comes to rewarding lawbreakers, people become tenthers

StanUpshaw

07-26-2011, 12:40 PM

Oh look.

He's back.

Dude!

07-26-2011, 01:03 PM

Oh look.

He's back.

probably out
on work release

cougarjake13

07-26-2011, 06:04 PM

A friend of mine lives in Mt Kisco NY about 45 min from the city one of many Westchester suburbs overrun by illegals. Since the recession started and the housing bubble burst the illegals arent working as much. A few years ago when the economy was better by 8:00am all the day laborers would be picked up for the day.

Now since work is scarce, they are all loitering by the train station and the downtown area, harassing people drinking heavily fighting etc.

start an illegals drunk fight club

spoon

07-26-2011, 10:30 PM

PapaBear

07-26-2011, 10:49 PM

Where is Marcus Welby MD, when you need him?

spoon

07-26-2011, 10:53 PM

Gov Moonbeam allows illegals in state tuition.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/07/25/california.immigration.law/

Ok fair enough why when illegals are rewarded its a state matter, but when states like Arizona mirror federal law the get sued?

While many states have chosen to legislate hate and division by approving anti-immigrant laws, California's governor sends a strong message that investing in today's student population, regardless of their immigration status, is smart, practical, and the right thing to do," Salas said in a written statement.
The law requires undocumented immigrant students to have attended a California high school for three or more years, to have attained a diploma or a GED, to have filed an affidavit with the college stating they have applied for a lawful immigration status or will apply as soon as they are eligible to do so, Quinonez said.

Moonbeam huh? Yah you don't parrot anything at all. And do you see ANYTHING in what I listed from the article above versus purely attacking all of those here illegally? Or do we just treat them all the same, like Arizona or worse, even those that have been successful in school and want to go further? I'm not saying I'm 100% behind this, but I see the above as having much merit and surely more in line with what this country is SUPPOSED to be about.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-27-2011, 04:00 AM

That's your WF Immigration Hate News break for the day!

What you call hate others call reality.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-27-2011, 04:04 AM

Moonbeam huh? Yah you don't parrot anything at all. And do you see ANYTHING in what I listed from the article above versus purely attacking all of those here illegally? Or do we just treat them all the same, like Arizona or worse, even those that have been successful in school and want to go further? I'm not saying I'm 100% behind this, but I see the above as having much merit and surely more in line with what this country is SUPPOSED to be about.

We should put the needs of citizens and legal immigrants ahead of anyone here illegally. I stated many times I would not have a problem with a limited DREAM act.

If the person meets all criteria then put him only on a path to legalization. Not his extended family and no chain migration.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-27-2011, 09:30 AM

Strayed into Texas ?

http://news.yahoo.com/u-returns-33-mexican-troops-strayed-texas-030751017.html

spoon

07-27-2011, 11:48 AM

What you call hate others call reality.

Listen WF, it's not just your view on this, it's your tact. I actually agree with some of ur points, as small as they are, it's just you seem to have this anger with the situation. My take on this is we all came here at one time, and many different races at one time were viewed in this country unfortunately like the Mexican immigrants are today. Outside of your one off awful stories you can do for any population, as a whole these people are looking for a new, better life in this country that was founded as being just that for so many in the past. We shouldn't just close that out today bc it's not the classic white immigrant of the past. If someone gets arrested and is here illegal, ship them out I get that. If they are here, for YEARS an do nothing but work hard and their kids have gone through our schools, speak English and overall are looking/qualified to go to college here to expand their intelligence and worth, I say that's a good thing. If they are here adding little value, why can't you see the advantage of improving their value and having this opportunity at the end of it all as something that endears them even more to the value of our country and our system.

I see the issues with it, but they were giving it to illegals anyway if you read the article. Now it's just in the open and will probably make it a bigger plus for kids to focus and better their lives and help their families, cities, states and our country. My guess is they'll get better jobs, pay taxes quicker and add to communities further then in the past.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-27-2011, 12:09 PM

Listen WF, it's not just your view on this, it's your tact. I actually agree with some of ur points, as small as they are, it's just you seem to have this anger with the situation. My take on this is we all came here at one time, and many different races at one time were viewed in this country unfortunately like the Mexican immigrants are today. Outside of your one off awful stories you can do for any population, as a whole these people are looking for a new, better life in this country that was founded as being just that for so many in the past. We shouldn't just close that out today bc it's not the classic white immigrant of the past. If someone gets arrested and is here illegal, ship them out I get that. If they are here, for YEARS an do nothing but work hard and their kids have gone through our schools, speak English and overall are looking/qualified to go to college here to expand their intelligence and worth, I say that's a good thing. If they are here adding little value, why can't you see the advantage of improving their value and having this opportunity at the end of it all as something that endears them even more to the value of our country and our system.

I see the issues with it, but they were giving it to illegals anyway if you read the article. Now it's just in the open and will probably make it a bigger plus for kids to focus and better their lives and help their families, cities, states and our country. My guess is they'll get better jobs, pay taxes quicker and add to communities further then in the past.

When the quality of life goes down that is a major factor. People want to live in the suburbs because they feel its safer and a better environment for their families than cities

Its more concern than anything else. Just because someone wants a better life they should come here illegally? I am all for reforming the red tape for legal entry, but at the same time we let in more than 1 million people anually legally.

This isnt some sort of Norweigen nutjob diatribe that I want a pure race. My last gf was from Peru and I am now dating a woman from the Philippines both came here legally.

We barely have enough resources to provide for citizens and legal residents and at the same time billions are being doled out for illegals. Amnesty is not the answer and rounding up 20 million people is costly and almost impossible and a police state. Attrition thru enforcement is the best way and taking away the incentives would go far. Also deporting people for DWI's and other crimes is also a good step. To Obamas credit his admin is deporting more than Dubya's ever did. I know families are going to be broken up but again they can bring their children back to their country.

I'll comprimise for a limited DREAM act as I posted many times before, but a full blanket amnesty is something that not just me, but most of the country will not go for.

WRESTLINGFAN

07-28-2011, 01:58 PM

Ive thought about this and Im willing to go this route

Limited dream act as I posted before
Seasonal/Guest worker program
Streamline the process for legal entry

Have ICE announce that people here illegally have 90 days to register. Anyone here illegally who hasnt commited a crime, grant them a 5 year visa and if they do not commit a crime they can become permanent residents but no citizenship at all. If they do commit a crime like rape, robbery etc they serve their time and deported and barred from reentry. In return enhanced border security and no chain migration its only for the people here illegally. The newly legal residents can not bring in their cousins, aunts uncles etc.

After 90 days if they fail to register and doing something like having a broken tail light or DWI Youre outta here

Does that sound reasonable?

Dudeman

08-02-2011, 08:34 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/health/views/02cases.html?src=tp

Space Frog

08-02-2011, 09:49 PM

Should the statue of liberty say, go back home because we have standards and property values to protect.

keithy_19

08-02-2011, 11:33 PM

Should the statue of liberty say, go back home because we have standards and property values to protect.

Wouldn't do much. Not quite as many coming over those waters to get here.

WRESTLINGFAN

08-03-2011, 04:55 AM

Should the statue of liberty say, go back home because we have standards and property values to protect.

Does the statue of liberty trump the constitution?

Pittsburgh

08-03-2011, 05:19 AM