Should GM/Ford be allowed to fail?

[scottinnj]

GM's CEO Rick Wagoner is out, replacement to be named soon.

Wagoner is set to resign as a precondition by the White House for continued assistance while it restructures.

Story Here (http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/industrials/gm-ceo-wagoner-step-obama-unveil-auto-plan/)

[jessicaduh]

Hot.

[Syd]

brutal throat fucking is torture and the US should stop using it to interrogate prisoners

[DiabloSammich]

brutal throat fucking is torture and the US should stop using it to interrogate prisoners



Liberal.

[LordJezo]

http://www.businessinsider.com/new-allegations-of-white-house-threats-over-chysler-2009-5

The fear Obama is putting in everyone is growing each day. It's not GM but another car company so related to this thread.

Go against Obama and you'll be destroyed.

[epo]

http://www.businessinsider.com/new-allegations-of-white-house-threats-over-chysler-2009-5

The fear Obama is putting in everyone is growing each day. It's not GM but another car company so related to this thread.

Go against Obama and you'll be destroyed.

So you listened to Mark Levin today? (http://www.marklevinshow.com/)

The person who should be destroyed is John Carney for writing an article completely based on anonymous sources. Seriously...did he make that shit up like he does his stock picks?

[Serpico1103]

http://www.businessinsider.com/new-allegations-of-white-house-threats-over-chysler-2009-5

The fear Obama is putting in everyone is growing each day. It's not GM but another car company so related to this thread.

Go against Obama and you'll be destroyed.

"Although the focus has so been on allegations that the White House threatened Perella Weinberg, sources familiar with the matter say that other firms felt they were threatened as well."

"Another characterized Obama was "the most dangerous smooth talker on the planet- and I knew Kissinger.""

The article should have been written anonymously because of its mistakes and brutal grammar. How can you trust anything in the article when he can't grasp basic writing skills.
Also, someone explain to him that he can use a dictionary. He states that Obama played hardball by cajoling them. Hmmmm, cajoling means using gentle persuasion. Which one was it?
But, if Lord Jezo was serious about having an opinion he would read and analyze, instead of just searching out inflammatory pieces.

[Recyclerz]

"Although the focus has so been on allegations that the White House threatened Perella Weinberg, sources familiar with the matter say that other firms felt they were threatened as well."

"Another characterized Obama was "the most dangerous smooth talker on the planet- and I knew Kissinger.""

The article should have been written anonymously because of its mistakes and brutal grammar. How can you trust anything in the article when he can't grasp basic writing skills(?)
Also, someone explain to him that he can use a dictionary. He states that Obama played hardball by cajoling them. Hmmmm, cajoling means using gentle persuasion. Which one was it?
But, if Lord Jezo was serious about having an opinion he would read and analyze, instead of just searching out inflammatory pieces.

Elitist.

A basic familiarity with the rules of grammar or logic have nothing to do with alleging, and thereby proving, that the current US President is a socialist, fascist, Somali pirate.

[Syd]

WSJ has as much credibility as Hannity or Beck. They're a few bad quarters of subscription losses away from posting about FEMA death camps.

[LordJezo]

Ah well, it's all coming true.

Tax dollars used to save GM so they can fire American workers and start funneling cash to China.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-to-import-china-made-vehicles-by-2011.html

Eh, everything we have been saying for years is now real. No one would listen but now it's all happening.

[TheMojoPin]

What have you been saying for years?

[LordJezo]

What have you been saying for years?

Tax money is being used to pave the way for world government.

[TheMojoPin]

I've never heard you say that.

[epo]

I've never heard you say that.

You weren't listening to the voices in his head.

[HBox]

You weren't listening to the voices in his head.

Only the NSA is listening to those.

[epo]

Only the NSA is listening to those.

Luckily they record them and the files are hilarious! I should send you a copy.

[Jughead]

The way they are phucking up the launch of this new Camaro They should.....All the hype people coming in by the hundreds and no cars....Not the first time.. full page ad in USA today at the launch of the new Malibu last year No inventory...Dummys

[HBox]

The way they are phucking up the launch of this new Camaro They should.....All the hype people coming in by the hundreds and no cars....Not the first time.. full page ad in USA today at the launch of the new Malibu last year No inventory...Dummys

No wonder they are going bankrupt. They are paying everybody but they forgot to make the cars!

[LordJezo]

So where's the outrage over this China thing? You libs wanted nothing more than to stop GM from failing because it is an American institution or some other garbage, save the company to save American jobs, and now they are just going to China.

Go Obama! Nothing like using taxpayer money to fund outsourcing.

[IMSlacker]

Did you read the the article you posted?

However, GM’s China import plans could change in the coming months, pending forthcoming negotiations with the UAW. However, even at 2014’s increased sales levels China-made cars would only account for 1.6 percent of GM’s overall sales, so the UAW isn’t expected to throw up a huge road block.

If the UAW isn't outraged why would the rest of us "libs" be?

[LordJezo]

Did you read the the article you posted?



If the UAW isn't outraged why would the rest of us "libs" be?

Because the UAW got 50% of Chrysler stock and the brass there has nothing to worry about. Why would the suits care if some regular Joe's lost their jobs? Trusting that union would just be silly.

[LordJezo]

GM is now running ads on TV highlighting the fact that their 100,000 mile / 5 year warranty is "backed by the government".

That seems so strange to hear.

[cougarjake13]

GM is now running ads on TV highlighting the fact that their 100,000 mile / 5 year warranty is "backed by the government".

That seems so strange to hear.



indeed


but they had to say something otherwise who would buy a gm vehicle

[Drunky McBetidont]

welcome to the board, budday!

check out the hot chick pic thread.

you might feel more comfortable posting in the cypher films thread.

[epo]

Gas in the Tank: GM Repays $8.1B in Gov't Loans (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10431659)
GM repays $8.1B in gov't loans 5 years ahead of schedule, sets expansion plans at 2 plants

Fallen giant General Motors Co. accelerated toward recovery Wednesday, announcing the repayment of $8.1 billion in U.S. and Canadian government loans five years ahead of schedule.

The bailout saved GM and the taxpayers got paid back with interest 5 years early. I'd call that a success.

[Syd]

Gas in the Tank: GM Repays $8.1B in Gov't Loans (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10431659)
GM repays $8.1B in gov't loans 5 years ahead of schedule, sets expansion plans at 2 plants



The bailout saved GM and the taxpayers got paid back with interest 5 years early. I'd call that a success.

Unemployment is good because something something WHY ARE THE PRICES ON MY HOME FALLING rabble rabble rabble obamacare

[TripleSkeet]

Gas in the Tank: GM Repays $8.1B in Gov't Loans (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10431659)
GM repays $8.1B in gov't loans 5 years ahead of schedule, sets expansion plans at 2 plants



The bailout saved GM and the taxpayers got paid back with interest 5 years early. I'd call that a success.

Im man enough to admit I was wrong. Thats nice to see.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GM to become the T Mobile of the auto industry

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100722-719126.html

41K for this piece of garbage?Thanks I'll pass

Thats the same amt I paid for my 305HP 2010 Acura TL. Built in Ohio with non union labor. SCREW THE UAW!!!!!


http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1483/gm-to-sell-volt-for-41k-lease-for-350-a-month/

[Syd]

GM to become the T Mobile of the auto industry

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100722-719126.html

41K for this piece of garbage?Thanks I'll pass

Thats the same amt I paid for my 305HP 2010 Acura TL. Built in Ohio with non union labor. SCREW THE UAW!!!!!


http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1483/gm-to-sell-volt-for-41k-lease-for-350-a-month/

a) it is assembled by non-union labor, built by unions in Japan

b) It isn't a parallel hybrid car, it is a full on series hybrid car that has an engine drive a motor rather than the engine drive the wheels themselves. Its price per mile driven is far lower than the TL, especially within a 20-25 mile range when the Volt can run exclusively on electrical power

[Syd]

Rush doesn't understand the Volt either:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/29/report-rush-limbaugh-tears-into-chevy-volt-fails-to-understand/

[epo]

GM to become the T Mobile of the auto industry

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100722-719126.html

41K for this piece of garbage?Thanks I'll pass

Thats the same amt I paid for my 305HP 2010 Acura TL. Built in Ohio with non union labor. SCREW THE UAW!!!!!


http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1483/gm-to-sell-volt-for-41k-lease-for-350-a-month/

Its great to hear non-union guys bitch about union workers getting paid a fair wage. Do you realize the correlation between union wages & the strength of the middle class in this country? Do you realize that union workers create market conditions that strengthen the working conditions/compensation for all workers despite their union affiliation?

Of course you don't.....it wouldn't fit with your ridiculous rhetoric.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Its great to hear non-union guys bitch about union workers getting paid a fair wage. Do you realize the correlation between union wages & the strength of the middle class in this country? Do you realize that union workers create market conditions that strengthen the working conditions/compensation for all workers despite their union affiliation?

Of course you don't.....it wouldn't fit with your ridiculous rhetoric.

It wasn't the UAW that didnt have a hand in running GM and Chrysler into the ground? Yes their cars were awful and continue to be which will keep GM and Chrysler a laughing stock

BMW and Mercedes are opening up plants in the south while GM and Chrysler continue to be the jokes that they are. Detroit is finished!!!


Amazing how the union man bitches about management but these clods are too stupid to realize that the union bosses are corrupt scum robbing them blind and cozying up to politicians

So when will you be buying a GM or Chrysler if you have so much faith in them ?

[epo]

It wasn't the UAW that didnt have a hand in running GM and Chrysler into the ground? Yes their cars were awful and continue to be which will keep GM and Chrysler a laughing stock

BMW and Mercedes are opening up plants in the south while GM and Chrysler continue to be the jokes that they are. Detroit is finished!!!

Amazing how the union man bitches about management but is too stupid to realize that the union bosses are corrupt scum robbing them blind
So when will you be buying a GM or Chrysler if you have so much faith in them ?

A. I've only owned American cars my entire life. In fact I won't by a new car that doesn't appear on this list (http://www.uaw.org/cars).

B. The union worker had nothing to do with the problems of Detroit. It was their business model not reflecting the zeitgeist of the marketplace that led to their problems. Any fault of the "union" were not in current worker costs, but legacy costs...which are a reflection of the longevity of the companies (and management's lack of planning).

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Not good for Guhbmint Motors. Even the progressive NYT is saying the volt is a sham


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/opinion/30neidermeyer.html?_r=3&ref=opinion

[Syd]

Dumb, dumb article

For starters, G.M.’s vision turned into a car that costs $41,000 before relevant tax breaks ... but after billions of dollars of government loans and grants for the Volt’s development and production. And instead of the sleek coupe of 2007, it looks suspiciously similar to a Toyota Prius.

Concept cars are always outlandish and not realistic, there was zero chance of it looking like the concept coupe. It looks similar to a Prius because Kammbacks are the most fuel efficient design for passenger cars.

It also requires premium gasoline

This is a puzzler but I am assuming the gas engine is very high compression to eek out a bit more thermal efficiency from the engine. If that is the case, it is natural for it to use 91+PON.

, seats only four people (the battery runs down the center of the car, preventing a rear bench) and has less head and leg room than the $17,000 Chevrolet Cruze, which is more or less the non-electric version of the Volt.

My midsize sedan only seats four since there's a driveshaft going down the middle. Big deal, a lot of non-FWD cars have this and somehow it isn't an issue.

Whole thing is stupid. The Volt represents genuine future technology instead of "hey lets get better gas mileage out of an internal combustion engine" that the Prius goes by. Parallel hybrids are a dead end, series hybrids are the future.

[Dude!]

B. The union worker had nothing to do with the problems of Detroit. It was their business model not reflecting the zeitgeist of the marketplace that led to their problems. Any fault of the "union" were not in current worker costs, but legacy costs...which are a reflection of the longevity of the companies (and management's lack of planning).

bullshit...
'meet our demands
or we strike and close
you down'

unions are legalized blackmail
they are a huge reason
for Detroit's demise

[K.C.]

Gas in the Tank: GM Repays $8.1B in Gov't Loans (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10431659)
GM repays $8.1B in gov't loans 5 years ahead of schedule, sets expansion plans at 2 plants



The bailout saved GM and the taxpayers got paid back with interest 5 years early. I'd call that a success.

Actually, for the most part, the government has done a REALLY good job recouping the bailout loans.

They're going to make a killing for the taxpayers on Citi as they dump the common stock, and they're going to recoup a lot of the autoloans.

AIG is still the big one, but they're already saying this thing is costing less than the Savings & Loan scandal of the 80s, and that was before the good Citi and auto industry news.

[K.C.]

bullshit...
'meet our demands
or we strike and close
you down'

unions are legalized blackmail
they are a huge reason
for Detroit's demise

Because the non-unionized service industry is the model of greatness in American society...nothing says a great society like having millions work 40, 50, 60 hours a week at minimum wage and barely be able to pay rent, because they get paid shit vs. the cost of living.

That's the answer...right....

[WRESTLINGFAN]

bullshit...
'meet our demands
or we strike and close
you down'

unions are legalized blackmail
they are a huge reason
for Detroit's demise

Dont forget the bondholders got fucked big time while the UAW was treated royally


In any case fuck you UAW this is what a real car looks like


http://www.thetorquereport.com/2009_acura_tl_sh_awd.jpg


If I was to get a starter car It would be a honda civic. GM and Chrysler cars are the biggest pieces of shit out there on the road. If youre going to buy "American" at least buy a Ford. They took zero bailout cash

[NewYorkDragons80]

Its great to hear non-union guys bitch about union workers getting paid a fair wage. Do you realize the correlation between union wages & the strength of the middle class in this country? Do you realize that union workers create market conditions that strengthen the working conditions/compensation for all workers despite their union affiliation?


epo, what do you think of company unions? I would attribute much of the strength and quality of Japanese and German auto manufacturing to the pride and job satisfaction that comes from working with your employer on getting benefits and job security rather than the adversarial relationship that international unions create.

[epo]

epo, what do you think of company unions? I would attribute much of the strength and quality of Japanese and German auto manufacturing to the pride and job satisfaction that comes from working with your employer on getting benefits and job security rather than the adversarial relationship that international unions create.

Obviously they haven't been legal in this nation for generations, but it really depends upon the working conditions and the culture. My initial thought would be to maintain the no in the US due to the globalization of corporations, which would render the benefits of "pride" and the management relationship pretty much useless.

Mind you, I'm not a "one-size fits all" union guy, I just find the union bashing by some in this country (especially working class) to be very ignorant of history.

[Syd]

bullshit...
'meet our demands
or we strike and close
you down'

unions are legalized blackmail
they are a huge reason
for Detroit's demise

No, doubling down on the SUV craze is the reason for Detroit's demise. They were making more money and showing better profit with body on frame shitboxes that people bought for status. When it came time to build cars, GM never invested in car platforms or R&D. They were using ancient engines on ancient chassis and expected people to buy the Cavalier or the Lumina. They were garbage then are even worse now -- UAW had nothing to do with it, the massive profit margins on SUVs and trucks had to do with it.

Look at GM Europe or Ford Europe and see their cars: SUVs and pickups don't really exist there and they have to compete directly against those that make great cars.

[Syd]

Because the non-unionized service industry is the model of greatness in American society...nothing says a great society like having millions work 40, 50, 60 hours a week at minimum wage and barely be able to pay rent, because they get paid shit vs. the cost of living.

That's the answer...right....

Don't try to talk unions to people who have never worked an honest day.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Don't try to talk unions to people who have never worked an honest day.

Thats right non union people are all drug dealers and welfare queens

[epo]

Thats right non union people are all drug dealers and welfare queens

Seriously, shut the fuck up. Your rhetoric is so hackneyed that I'm shocked that you aren't a board character.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Seriously, shut the fuck up. Your rhetoric is so hackneyed that I'm shocked that you aren't a board character.



What's your fucking point? You're saying some parasite in the state fish and wildlife dept handing out fishing license part of some public sector union , and the thousands of other redundant paper pushers are productive?

[epo]

What's your fucking point? You're saying some parasite in the state fish and wildlife dept handing out fishing license part of some public sector union , and the thousands of other redundant paper pushers are productive?

My point is very simple: Your posts add nothing to the discourse of this board. When you post, its cheap, lowbrow rhetoric that has no value. We are all dumber for having read your drivel.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

My posts bother you because I don't agree with your opinions. You want to disagree with me? Fine we can have debate but don't hide behind some wall having a shit fit because we have different views. Do you even like the idea that there's talk about bailing out the public sector unions?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Seriously, shut the fuck up. Your rhetoric is so hackneyed that I'm shocked that you aren't a board character.

Seriously!!! You really think non union members never worked an honest day?

[epo]

My posts bother you because I don't agree with your opinions. You want to disagree with me? Fine we can have debate but don't hide behind some wall having a shit fit because we have different views. Do you even like the idea that there's talk about bailing out the public sector unions?

A difference of opinion is more than fine with me. I have a problem with you because you add nothing to the discourse of this board.

[Syd]

epo didn't say it, I did.

I don't believe people who haven't worked an honest day can comment on unions. An honest days work is actual manual labor doing a job that presents genuine danger beyond tipping your office chair over when you fall asleep in it.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

epo didn't say it, I did.

I don't believe people who haven't worked an honest day can comment on unions. An honest days work is actual manual labor doing a job that presents genuine danger beyond tipping your office chair over when you fall asleep in it.


Yea those city hall workers and employees in the dept of education have to deal with those dangerous papercuts

[Syd]

not my fault conservatives demonized workers for taking a stake in their future instead of depending on whatever handouts they were so graciously given

[WRESTLINGFAN]

not my fault conservatives demonized workers for taking a stake in their future instead of depending on whatever handouts they were so graciously given

Yes, leeching from the taxpayer and now during the recession when everyone else is cutting back like fucking parasites that they are, the public sector unions want more.

FUCK EM. PARTYS OVER

[Syd]

oh yes massa i'll work on the weekends, oh yes massa i'll work 70 hours a week, oh yes massa I have no idea what overtime is

oh yes massa I don't care if my 10 year old child works in the factory

thank god some people had the strength to seek something better for themselves and stand up and take pride of themselves instead of depending on whatever was handed out to them

[WRESTLINGFAN]

oh yes massa i'll work on the weekends, oh yes massa i'll work 70 hours a week, oh yes massa I have no idea what overtime is

oh yes massa I don't care if my 10 year old child works in the factory

thank god some people had the strength to seek something better for themselves and stand up and take pride of themselves instead of depending on whatever was handed out to them

PSST its not 1890

[Syd]

PSST its not 1890

is it?

It's an odd phenomenon. Before Memorial Day in May, the Senate Republican leadership plans to have a go at repealing or minimizing the estate tax - the "death tax," as they like to call it. Yet economist after economist note that the only families likely to benefit are billionaires and multimillionaires, and that both income and wealth in the United States are increasingly being concentrated at the top.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0306/p16s01-coop.html

Only twice before over the last century has 5 percent of the national income gone to families in the upper one-one-hundredth of a percent of the income distribution -- currently, the almost 15,000 families with incomes of $9.5 million or more a year, according to an analysis of tax returns by the economists Emmanuel Saez at the University of California, Berkeley and Thomas Piketty at the Paris School of Economics.

Such concentration at the very top occurred in 1915 and 1916, as the Gilded Age was ending, and again briefly in the late 1920s, before the stock market crash. Now it is back, and Mr. Weill is prominent among the new titans. His net worth exceeds $1 billion, not counting the $500 million he says he has already given away, in the open-handed style of Andrew Carnegie and the other great philanthropists of the earlier age.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06E2D71F3EF936A25754C0A9619C8B 63


Keep with the slave mentality, it's cute. Refuse to stand up for yourself and make sure you're glued to the seat. Well, maybe not glued since you might need to get on your knees to kiss some feet.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

is it?



http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0306/p16s01-coop.html


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06E2D71F3EF936A25754C0A9619C8B 63


Keep with the slave mentality, it's cute. Refuse to stand up for yourself and make sure you're glued to the seat. Well, maybe not glued since you might need to get on your knees to kiss some feet.


which negro spiritual is your favorite? Lead us in Sweet Chariot

[A.J.]

which negro spiritual is your favorite? Lead us in Sweet Chariot

http://www.morethings.com/fan/blazing_saddles/blazing-saddles-140.jpg

[NewYorkDragons80]

Obviously they haven't been legal in this nation for generations, but it really depends upon the working conditions and the culture. My initial thought would be to maintain the no in the US due to the globalization of corporations, which would render the benefits of "pride" and the management relationship pretty much useless.

Mind you, I'm not a "one-size fits all" union guy, I just find the union bashing by some in this country (especially working class) to be very ignorant of history.

I wouldn't consider myself a union-basher (nor am I accusing you of directing that label at me), and I am certainly supportive of unions for independent contractors like carpenters, plumbers, etc. But the culture of entitlement has suffocated GM and threatens companies like American Airlines if the unions aren't willing to make some concessions in the coming years.

[StanUpshaw]

epo didn't say it, I did.


Holy shit, I just realized you're two different posters.



It's like Bill Paxton/Bill Pullman all over again.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The average joe union guy doesn't realize his Union thug boss is fucking him over. Why would labor unions want amnesty for illegals? That would drive their wages down because theres more of a supply of workers When his dues are going to politicians who are looking to kill their industry they don't see that.

They are fanned by the bosses about bitching about management but the boss lives like a king. I mentioned this before. Does the head of the UAW know the basics of an assembly line?

[epo]

I wouldn't consider myself a union-basher (nor am I accusing you of directing that label at me), and I am certainly supportive of unions for independent contractors like carpenters, plumbers, etc. But the culture of entitlement has suffocated GM and threatens companies like American Airlines if the unions aren't willing to make some concessions in the coming years.

Those companies have had to/or will need to make significant changes in their business models/product offering...fair enough.

But I ask you: Why is it that the people who actually "do the work" seemingly take the shit-end of the stick in these deals, and nobody from management is asked to make such concessions? I would love to see a CEO justify this graph:

http://www.epi.org/images/snap20060621.jpg

[epo]

The average joe union guy doesn't realize his Union thug boss is fucking him over. Why would labor unions want amnesty for illegals? That would drive their wages down because theres more of a supply of workers When his dues are going to politicians who are looking to kill their industry they don't see that.

They are fanned by the bosses about bitching about management but the boss lives like a king. I mentioned this before. Does the head of the UAW know the basics of an assembly line?

So the question is: Does Bob King know anything about an "Honest Day's Work"?

Bob King, the current head of UAW, joined UAW Local 600 in 1970 when he was hired at Ford’s Detroit Parts Depot and began his electrical apprenticeship in 1972.

You consistently add nothing of substance to this board.

[torker]

Hyundai should be allowed to succeed

[Drunky McBetidont]

i just went swimming. it was totally refreshing.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So the question is: Does Bob King know anything about an "Honest Day's Work"?



You consistently add nothing of substance to this board.

Ok I'll man up and admit I was wrong about the head of the UAW not knowing about an assembly line my bad on that but Im sure he's an advocate for a single payer system, as an example

Unions were once needed, but they have run their course



http://www.unionfacts.com/

[epo]

Ok I'll man up and admit I was wrong about the head of the UAW not knowing about an assembly line my bad on that but Im sure he's an advocate for a single payer system, as an example

This is the official and long-standing UAW stance on health care: (http://www.uaw.org/node/291)

America’s health care crisis is a national problem that requires a national solution. It cannot be resolved with any one industry or employer through labor negotiations.

The United States is the only major industrialized nation in which the responsibility for providing health care rests primarily with employers. Other developed nations have universal health care systems – funded by general and employer tax revenues – that provide high-quality care at lower costs to all their citizens. In the United States, however, more than 46 million Americans are without any health care coverage at all, and millions more are underinsured.

The UAW has long advocated for a universal, single-payer insurance program to cover every man, woman and child in the United States. Such a program would not only ensure adequate medical care for all Americans while controlling costs, it would place U.S. companies on a more level playing field with overseas competitors that do not provide health care benefits.

That type of logic must hurt your brain.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This is the official and long-standing UAW stance on health care: (http://www.uaw.org/node/291)



That type of logic must hurt your brain.

HAAAAA!!!

The same talking points. Like trained fucking seals

The same old line with 46 million people and Its been dismissed. They don't realize that 20 million people are here illegally.

OUCH DAMN THAT LOGIC!!!!!

[epo]

The same old line with 46 million people and Its been dismissed. They don't realize that 20 million people are here illegally.

OUCH DAMN THAT LOGIC!!!!!

Everything really is about immigration with you....

[WRESTLINGFAN]

A lot of issues are about illegal immigration with you....


Fixed

[Syd]

I wouldn't consider myself a union-basher (nor am I accusing you of directing that label at me), and I am certainly supportive of unions for independent contractors like carpenters, plumbers, etc. But the culture of entitlement has suffocated GM and threatens companies like American Airlines if the unions aren't willing to make some concessions in the coming years.

American Airlines isn't doing well because they run unprofitable routes. Southwest Airlines is nearly completely unionized yet highly profitable. However, they run profitable routes. The problem lies within some cities not being entirely important and unworthy of air travel.

edit:
Labor relations
AMR Logo

Approximately 75 percent of American Airlines employees in the U.S. are represented by one of three unions—the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the Association of Professional Flight Attendants (APFA) and the Transport Workers Union (TWU).

At American Eagle approximately 66 percent of U.S. employees are represented by one of three unions—the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), the Association of Flight Attendants (AFA), and the Transport Workers Union (TWU).

Network carriers have railed for decades about the power of their employee unions. But guess who's the most unionized carrier in the nation? Southwest, of course. The airline says that 87 percent of its employees belong to a union. Southwest has never had a strike, and now that the network carriers have whacked away at salaries and benefits, Southwest staffers are generally the highest paid in the industry.

Maybe AAs problem is not being unionized enough? ;)


Also, what suffocated GM was the rush toward short term profit. Their downfall came as SUVs were no longer selling as well and more companies had competitive SUVs.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No profit for the Volt.

Straight from GM's own website. No one wants a chevette with a fancy battery


http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/25/at-40000-the-volt-would-result-in-no-profit-for-gm/#comments

[epo]

No profit for the Volt.

Straight from GM's own website. No one wants a chevette with a fancy battery


http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/25/at-40000-the-volt-would-result-in-no-profit-for-gm/#comments

Wanna find a more up to date article than March 25, 2008!?!

Once again...you add nothing of substance to this board.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Wanna find a more up to date article than March 25, 2008!?!

Once again...you add nothing of substance to this board.

Oh really?


Did you miss the link I posted from the NY Times? Let me guess theyre a bunch of racist Obama/GM bashing neocons now

I get it, you have a crush on GM but saying outlandish comments that I add nothing because we have different opinions is getting old

[epo]

Oh really?


Did you miss the link I posted from the NY Times? Let me guess theyre a bunch of racist neocons now

No profit for the Volt.

Straight from GM's own website. No one wants a chevette with a fancy battery


http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/25/at-40000-the-volt-would-result-in-no-profit-for-gm/#comments

Read your post again dipshit. In terms of an argument, your grounds are an article from March of 2008, addressing a current economic status of a brand. You consistently provide nothing of fucking value.

[Dudeman]

Oh really?


Did you miss the link I posted from the NY Times? Let me guess theyre a bunch of racist Obama/GM bashing neocons now


not all of them, just this former columnist:

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/kristol_incompetent.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Read your post again dipshit. In terms of an argument, your grounds are an article from March of 2008, addressing a current economic status of a brand. You consistently provide nothing of fucking value.

Ok its 2010 and the government has to whore out the volt with a tax credit, Sure demand will be high but, with no job creation and high unemployment. sales will be weak even with the credit

[epo]

Ok its 2010 and the government has to whore out the volt with a tax credit, Sure demand will be high but, with no job creation and high unemployment. sales will be weak even with the credit

Like when Bush pushed SUVs and Hummers with tax credits?

[Syd]

Ok its 2010 and the government has to whore out the volt with a tax credit, Sure demand will be high but, with no job creation and high unemployment. sales will be weak even with the credit

It's the absolute cutting edge of technology. It's a step away from burning fossil fuels for transportation. You think any of it will be cheap? Oil won't last forever and at some point Americans need to either give up the suburbs and move to the cities and use mass transportation or they need to start spending $35+ on electric cars.

[Syd]

Like when Bush pushed SUVs and Hummers with tax credits?

or when Bush pushed the Prius with tax credits

but don't worry WF isn't a huge Bush apologist, he just conveniently forgot to bring up other examples

[WRESTLINGFAN]

or when Bush pushed the Prius with tax credits

but don't worry WF isn't a huge Bush apologist, he just conveniently forgot to bring up other examples

Id like to thak you and EPO for validating my points that its a 3rd Bush term

[Dudeman]

Id like to thak you and EPO for validating my points that its a 3rd Bush term

Except we don't have frightening men like Alito being put on the court. (And yes, I know, WF hates fat lesbians on the court.)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Except we don't have frightening men like Alito being put on the court. (And yes, I know, WF hates fat lesbians on the court.)

Dont worry, the SCOTUS softball team will have its newest member very soon

[Bob Impact]

Like when Bush pushed SUVs and Hummers with tax credits?

By pushed I'll assume you mean the fact that vehicles over 6,000 pounds were eligible for a tax credit if used for business more than 50% of the time, which was intended to help farmers buy farm equipment. Not that it makes it better because it doesn't, but a loophole that allows people to get an unintended tax break is not pushing SUVs.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Waiting for progressives to go apeshit about bonuses paid out to a company who got a bailout in 3.....2.....1.....



http://www.detnews.com/article/20110209/BIZ/102090329/1001/GM-bonus-checks-may-top-$3-000

[foodcourtdruide]

Waiting for progressives to go apeshit about bonuses paid out to a company who got a bailout in 3.....2.....1.....



http://www.detnews.com/article/20110209/BIZ/102090329/1001/GM-bonus-checks-may-top-$3-000

You seriously don't understand the difference between $160 million being distributed amongst 53,000 people and 15 people?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You seriously don't understand the difference between $160 million being distributed amongst 53,000 people and 15 people?

Thats not the point. No bonuses should be paid for Bank of America Citgroup or GM.


All these companies are like a woman who fucks her boss for a raise, then expects her husband to be happy for the increased income.

[foodcourtdruide]

Thats not the point. No bonuses should be paid for Bank of America Citgroup or GM.


All these companies are like a woman who fucks her boss for a raise, then expects her husband to be happy for the increased income.

I think the issue was more with giving massive (MASSIVE, not $3,000.. seriously WF, this is weak sauce) to executives that directly contributed to the decisions that made those companies have to be bailed out to begin with.

Your metaphor is trying to simplify something incredibly complicated. Punishing the hundreds of thousands of people that work for those companies by not giving them bonuses makes no sense. People don't have an issue with $3,000, it was the bonuses that were in the 10's of millions of dollars that people found offensive.

I don't get it. Why do you hate American workers so much?

[Philly Franko]

The USA now has the Highest Corporate Income Tax in the WORLD..China was the Highest...Buy an American Car made in the USA or move to the country where your car was made...as a Retired GM worker, I lost big money in my 401K and i was pretty much forced to Retrire. I am Thankful I got my 30 years in...God Bless American Auto Workers...The Company and the Union should take the blame...

[underdog]

You seriously don't understand the difference between $160 million being distributed amongst 53,000 people and 15 people?

Typical progressive response.

I got my 30 years in...God Bless American Auto Workers...The Company and the Union should take the blame...

You realize that the "american auto workers" comprise the "union", right?

[spoon]

I think the issue was more with giving massive (MASSIVE, not $3,000.. seriously WF, this is weak sauce) to executives that directly contributed to the decisions that made those companies have to be bailed out to begin with.

Your metaphor is trying to simplify something incredibly complicated. Punishing the hundreds of thousands of people that work for those companies by not giving them bonuses makes no sense. People don't have an issue with $3,000, it was the bonuses that were in the 10's of millions of dollars that people found offensive.

I don't get it. Why do you hate American workers so much?

This, just make it bold. Wait, I can do that.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Excellent!!!!

http://www.nlpc.org/stories/2011/02/14/gms-uaw-bonus-payout-outrage

"Apologists for General Motors and the UAW justify the bonuses by claiming that the UAW sacrificed much in the GM bankruptcy. I have not seen where the UAW has made much in the lines of sacrifice. Of the $20 billion that the UAW forgave in benefit obligations, the UAW received 17.5% equity in New GM now worth approximately $10 billion, $2.5 billion in cash and $6.5 billion in preferred preferred shares for a total of $19 billion. Add to that the recently contributed $6 billion of cash and equity by GM in to a UAW benefits' fund. Compare this to the $28 billion the GM bondholders sacrificed. Bondholders have yet to receive their payout, but current bond pricing puts the value of outstanding bonds at about $9 billion. Even though contract law puts bondholders on equal standing to other creditors, the disproportionate returns demonstrate President Obama's crony capitalism whereby politically connected groups like the UAW benefit at the expense of less favored groups. Taxpayers, as well, are nowhere near having their money paid back in full."

[SKANE]

Thats not the point. No bonuses should be paid for Bank of America Citgroup or GM.

So for how long does C get punished? Just curious.


NEW YORK (AP) -- Citigroup Inc. is giving its CEO a big raise.

The New York-based bank is lifting Vikram Pandit's base salary to $1.75 million from just $1 a year effective immediately, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission on Friday. The announcement comes after Citi reported its first full year of profits since Pandit took over the top job in 2007. The bank also repaid the last of its bailout money last year.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So for how long does C get punished? Just curious.


NEW YORK (AP) -- Citigroup Inc. is giving its CEO a big raise.

The New York-based bank is lifting Vikram Pandit's base salary to $1.75 million from just $1 a year effective immediately, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission on Friday. The announcement comes after Citi reported its first full year of profits since Pandit took over the top job in 2007. The bank also repaid the last of its bailout money last year.

Did you read the last paragraph?


General Motors should be free to pay its workers and management whatever they want to, AFTER the taxpayers no longer have a stake in GM. Until that time our representatives should show some of the indignation they displayed during the auto bailout hearings when GM decides to be overly generous with taxpayer money. The public should expect this from its representatives along with unbiased reporting by the media.

Same applies for all companies who got a bailout

[Philly Franko]

I have a chance to go work in the same Factory where I put in 30 years working for GM...Only now Fisker Auto is going to build electric cars there starting in 2012 or so.I heard that 2 or 3 of our top Local Union People have been moved from the Local 435 Union Hall to the Plant.I hear that they will be Part of Management...I wonder what the pay will be and can I get my old job back....I was in Path Teach, a highly skilled job where you work with skilled trades and DuPont Labs to teach the Robots how to spray cars..Primer Basecoat and clearcoat....Had my own shop and million dollar robots to practice on...Loved that job, testing new paint colors etc and much more...we won best paint jobs 3 years in a row on the Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice Roadsters...Check out Fisker.com or whatever there site is....great Cars...Great company

[SKANE]

Did you read the last paragraph?


General Motors should be free to pay its workers and management whatever they want to, AFTER the taxpayers no longer have a stake in GM. Until that time our representatives should show some of the indignation they displayed during the auto bailout hearings when GM decides to be overly generous with taxpayer money. The public should expect this from its representatives along with unbiased reporting by the media.

Same applies for all companies who got a bailout

Did you read the question? You said Citibank shouldn't give out bonuses. I asked how long should they be punished sine they had already paid back the TARP money.
And why only BAC and C on your list? What about Goldman, JP Morgan, Wells Fargo etc. They all took the dirty TARP money.

BTW, AIG and GM shouldn't give out bonuses until they pay back the money.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Did you read the question? You said Citibank shouldn't give out bonuses. I asked how long should they be punished sine they had already paid back the TARP money.
And why only BAC and C on your list? What about Goldman, JP Morgan, Wells Fargo etc. They all took the dirty TARP money.

BTW, AIG and GM shouldn't give out bonuses until they pay back the money.


Once every dime is paid back then they can compensate as approved by their boards

Do you recall TARP was forced on some banks even though they were solvent?

http://www.businessinsider.com/uncovered-tarp-docs-reveal-how-paulson-forced-banks-to-take-the-cash-2009-5

[SKANE]

Once every dime is paid back then they can compensate as approved by their boards

Do you recall TARP was forced on some banks even though they were solvent?

http://www.businessinsider.com/uncovered-tarp-docs-reveal-how-paulson-forced-banks-to-take-the-cash-2009-5

Excellent. Then we both agree you were wrong in saying Citibank shouldn't be allowed to pay bonuses. Good talk.

[spoon]

Excellent. Then we both agree you were wrong in saying Citibank shouldn't be allowed to pay bonuses. Good talk.

classic

[WRESTLINGFAN]

In other words. The volt is a heaping pile of shit


http://www.businessinsider.com/consumer-reports-volt-2011-3



How many Volts sold?


http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/blog/2011/03/atlas-shrugged-and-the-chevy-volt.html

[Syd]

Volt's critics miss point, but fans don't
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2011/032011/03052011/611121

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Dont expect a dividend check anytime soon.


http://www.businessinsider.com/gm-ipo-taxpayers-break-even-2010-9

GM CLOSE OF BUSINESS 3/4/11

Last Trade: 32.39
Trade Time: Mar 4
Change: 0.64 (1.94%)
Prev Close: 33.03
Open: 33.07
Bid: 32.03 x 100
Ask: 32.41 x 300
1y Target Est: 43.70

[hanso]

You are useing GM as an example? As always the right gets it wrong. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid WF.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Keep waiting for that dividend check in the mail like a kid on Christmas eve Hanso. The numbers don't lie!!! I would love to know how many Guhbmint Motors worshippers bought shares of GM or bought one of their very high quality UAW made cars

I'll never buy a GM. The Japanese make great works of Automotive machinery. 4 Acuras since 1999 and never a problem. Honda knows how to make 'em

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Chevy Volt. An expensive Yugo with an I pod dock

[Syd]

You know the Chevy Volt was being designed way before Obama was elected, right? There's no reason for all the vitriol.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GM has had a bad business model before Obama. They have been making shit products before the bailout.


The volt is not like the IPhone. When that 1st came out there were major problems and it was something like $600 but millions of people bought it. In the coming years the volt might come down in price but it will not be a major success like the Prius is.


Over the last 12 years the profits from the cars I leased went to Tokyo. Its because they made far superior products than anything that came out of Detroit

[hanso]

General Motors Co. reported $4.7 billion of net income for 2010. And sales haven't slowed any.

You could pick better examples for your rants.

[sailor]

GM has had a bad business model before Obama. They have been making shit products before the bailout.


The volt is not like the IPhone. When that 1st came out there were major problems and it was something like $600 but millions of people bought it. In the coming years the volt might come down in price but it will not be a major success like the Prius is.


Over the last 12 years the profits from the cars I leased went to Tokyo. Its because they made far superior products than anything that came out of Detroit

who cares? you act like gm raped your dog or something.

[underdog]

who cares? you act like gm raped your dog or something.

He acts like everything raped his dog.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

General Motors Co. reported $4.7 billion of net income for 2010. And sales haven't slowed any.

You could pick better examples for your rants.

That is not a profit. Until every dime is paid back with interest Theres no profit. Thats just GM
Guhbmint Math.



Again GM must be priced @$134 a share then taxpayers will be made whole. Taxpayers lost 9 billion on the IPO


GM owes about 40 billion and GMAC owes about 14 billion as of Nov 2010.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

He acts like everything raped his dog.



RAPISTS


http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/UAW-Logo.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://www.cagle.com/working/090604/stantis.jpg


http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/fladj11/Obamacare/ObamaHealthWarranty.gif


http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachments/shifting-gears/180156d1251199129-new-gm-government-motors-releases-2010-concept-car-obama-gm-cartoon.jpg

[underdog]

http://www.about.ch/culture/food/sauerkraut.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GM Vehicles


http://files.aminglingoftastes.com/uploaded_images/Bowl-of-Lemons-765902.JPG

[WRESTLINGFAN]

quality GM vehicles
http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-shanghai-gm-recalls-233000-sedans-over-fire-risk.html


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_gm_recall


So when will sec of transportation Ray The Hood open his trap about these?

[underdog]

http://sxsnews.com/images/ArcticCat-Prowler-1.jpg

[spoon]

Guhbmint Math

Government Motors

So fucking hack it hurts my head. Seriously, we give more away in oil and corn subsidies almost yearly. I'm not saying it's completely right, but I see the reasoning behind the approach and the positive effect it had overall with the banks, the economy (it would have been worse) and of course GM. Yes, GM. Not your stupid catch phrase echo chamber garbage.

[spoon]

And I don't disagree overall on American cars, especially in the recent past. However, that not to say they can't come out of the funk and get their shit together. Perhaps if the US government didn't tuck tail and run every time they need to step up and demand progress as in MPG as they tried under Carter they would have continued to evolve. US car companies lobbied hard to have it nixed and of course the repubs where there to take it under the name of Reagan and bam the advancement in technologies being set in motion were completely nixed. Instead the US companies kept fighting to have little change bc they felt they owned/dominated the market and couldn't lose. Why invest in true advances when you can spend less/make more by doing the same with minimal changes? So guess what, they were run down in the industry and passed up by a fucking mile.

Still, Toyota is in the midst of many issues. Honda is stagnant now in my mind in terms of interesting models or advances. To me, the time is right to get back in this. Too bad all the metal used to make the cars now comes from fucking China. And wait until they get their automobile industry going (meaning their own brands, not making others), as of right now their product is still shitty but moving forward at a faster pace. Chana, Beijing, Dong Feng and so many more like BYD (electric car company Warren Buffet has endorsed/bought into). Let's also not rule out India (Tata Motors) getting their hands into the pot as well outside of their own country/region. They already have financial links/ties to Western automobile companies Land Rover and Jaguar. While of all the Chinese companies out there, the best financial link I could was with Geely (China) having acquired the Swedish original Volvo from Ford in 2010. So I guess in some ways it's already begun, but just wait until we start seeing Geely, Fotons, BYDs and Chanas on the roads of the US.

[sailor]

So fucking hack it hurts my head. Seriously, we give more away in oil and corn subsidies almost yearly. I'm not saying it's completely right, but I see the reasoning behind the approach and the positive effect it had overall with the banks, the economy (it would have been worse) and of course GM. Yes, GM. Not your stupid catch phrase echo chamber garbage.

it's better than when everyone used to write "micro$oft" or "bu$h"

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So fucking hack it hurts my head. Seriously, we give more away in oil and corn subsidies almost yearly. I'm not saying it's completely right, but I see the reasoning behind the approach and the positive effect it had overall with the banks, the economy (it would have been worse) and of course GM. Yes, GM. Not your stupid catch phrase echo chamber garbage.

Where is the return on investment? 9 Billion dollars were lost on the IPO!!!!!!! We are not on pace to break even anytime soon. It is govt motors. bondholders were fucked over and Obama rewarded his handlers at the UAW.

As far as subsidies. I agree kill these programs.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Heres another one that has to be laughed at

<object width="518" height="419"><param name="movie" value="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=hdaGuzVrpr" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=hdaGuzVrpr" allowfullscreen="true" width="518" height="419" /></object>


Remember Ed Whitaker GMs CEO saying it paid back its loan in full & ahead of schedule? That was a lie.


It was repaid from an escrow account in which it was used to tap into for working capital


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/apr/27/ed-whitacre/ceo-says-gm-has-repaid-government-loans-full/

[sailor]

Figures apparently show GM to overtake Toyota as top car company his year. Just saw headline on news, so don't know details.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Bigger isn't always better. NO HOMO


Taxpayers are going to take a loss on the bailout.

http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2011/04/19/u-s-plans-to-sell-gm-stake-soon-tax-loss-carry-forward/

GM should have died and stayed buried. Now we are tens of billions in the hole and a company that produces shit cars like the volt and the cruze

[Syd]

The Cruze is a really, really nice car. I won't bother defending the Volt to you but don't you dare besmirch the name of the lone fucking small car GM has made that wasn't shit.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Keep em at 10 and 2 and in this case hold firmly


http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2011/04/10/chevy-recalls-cruze-after-a-steering-wheel-falls-off/

[Drew85]

It was only one cruze that had that issue and they made a recall, and I test drove a cruze it's a very nice car. They finally uped the interior quality.

[hanso]

They are building small cars for China now. I bet there nice, and good on gas.

[Syd]

Keep em at 10 and 2 and in this case hold firmly


http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2011/04/10/chevy-recalls-cruze-after-a-steering-wheel-falls-off/

Don't you drive a TSX? or a TL?

Keep your fire extinguisher handy in this case!
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/100503-Recall-Alert-Acura-TSX/

If it's the TL, I hope you don't have an automatic transmission because some years of those models had near 100% premature transmission failure rate.

Recalls happen. I know it's difficult to grasp, but literally every car has had a recall. The ones with the least recalls are the more shitty ones because they're long in the tooth and riding on terrible chassis.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Don't you drive a TSX? or a TL?

Keep your fire extinguisher handy in this case!
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/100503-Recall-Alert-Acura-TSX/

If it's the TL, I hope you don't have an automatic transmission because some years of those models had near 100% premature transmission failure rate.

Recalls happen. I know it's difficult to grasp, but literally every car has had a recall. The ones with the least recalls are the more shitty ones because they're long in the tooth and riding on terrible chassis.

I have the '10 TL AWD Model. This is my 4th Acura since 1999. I lease them and I never had a problem with any of them. Just the normal tire rotations and oil change maintenance

American car companies have a damaged reputation with the awful quality and the UAW legacy, If I were to buy one it would be a Ford, for the time being im still loyal to the Japanese

[foodcourtdruide]

I have the '10 TL AWD Model. This is my 4th Acura since 1999. I lease them and I never had a problem with any of them. Just the normal tire rotations and oil change maintenance

American car companies have a damaged reputation with the awful quality and the UAW legacy, If I were to buy one it would be a Ford, for the time being im still loyal to the Japanese

I rented a Ford Focus to drive down to SC recently and really liked it. My wife insists on Japanese car (never a Korean car), or I think my next purchase would be a Hyundai.

I really dislike bigger cars.

[foodcourtdruide]

Don't you drive a TSX? or a TL?

Keep your fire extinguisher handy in this case!
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/100503-Recall-Alert-Acura-TSX/

If it's the TL, I hope you don't have an automatic transmission because some years of those models had near 100% premature transmission failure rate.

Recalls happen. I know it's difficult to grasp, but literally every car has had a recall. The ones with the least recalls are the more shitty ones because they're long in the tooth and riding on terrible chassis.

No. Every car that's ever been in production has been perfect. This recall is a clear example of the failure of big government.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I rented a Ford Focus to drive down to SC recently and really liked it. My wife insists on Japanese car (never a Korean car), or I think my next purchase would be a Hyundai.

I really dislike bigger cars.

Hyundais have come a long way since the excel. The new sonata is a catch. No spam :innocent:


http://www.hyundaiusa.com/sonata/

[foodcourtdruide]

Hyundais have come a long way since the excel. The new sonata is a catch. No spam :innocent:


http://www.hyundaiusa.com/sonata/

Yeah, it's really nice. We're driving an 02 sentra now that's headed towards its last legs. My LAST payment though is this June. So, we're going to just drive it until it breaks down.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Speaking of big gov't. They did major damage to Toyotas reputation because of sensationalism by Ray LaHood and s frantic media. I didnt hear of an apology from Lahood or Congress for their part. Akio Toyoda was raked thru the coals by the political whores in DC looking for facetime


http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2011/02/us_government_no_electronic_fl.html


"We enlisted the best and brightest engineers to study Toyota's electronics systems and the verdict is in. There is no electronic-based cause for unintended acceleration in Toyotas," Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said in a statement

[sailor]

Wait, so now you're believing the government official? You're so confusing.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

In this case yes, If anything you would think that the Gov't would look to bury Toyota since the US gov't is a direct competitor of toyota being that they hold a majority stake in GM

[hanso]

A whopping 32%.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I should clarify at the time of the Toyota recall it was 61% The 32% figure is post IPO

Currently its about 26%

The gov't plans to sell the remaining stake of GM this year, it will be at a loss of about 11 billion dollars. Obama is doing this sale in 2011 because 2012 is an election year and he does not want this lemon to be around in '12 so hes making a calculation that people will forget the failure of the GM Bailout

[hanso]

It wasn't that long ago it was 32% If it went to 26% this fast it might be at zero by then.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

A tax credit scheme with the Volt? I am shocked.


http://nlpc.org/stories/2011/04/25/taxpayer-rip-dealerships-taking-chevy-volt-tax-credit





Damn those basic rules of microeconomics


http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2011-05-24-most-americans-refuse-electric-cars_n.htm

[Syd]

"Nearly six of 10 Americans — 57% — say they won't buy an all-electric car no matter the price of gas, according to a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll."

So, they're not buying a Tesla or a Nissan Leaf. Gotcha. Nissan is a French/Japanese backed company and Tesla is a private entity with a fair amount of Japanese backing. Neither are GM.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

And what does DNC chairman Wassmerman-Schultz drive???


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/05/debbie-wasserman-schultz-nissan-.html

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Another one of Obamas investments ends up a loser


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303745304576359530678869402.html?r u=yahoo&mod=yahoo_hs

[foodcourtdruide]

Another one of Obamas investments ends up a loser


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303745304576359530678869402.html?r u=yahoo&mod=yahoo_hs

Did you read the article? Do you know how much the tax payer could have possibly lost had the bailout never occurred? The bailout was $80 billion, the taxpayer will end up footing the bill for $14 billion AND the destruction of the U.S. auto industry was avoided. I think that's actually a win, not a loss. I can't even begin to imagine how much it would have cost us if those companies folded. Remember, it's not just those workers/shareholders affected, it would be all the dealers, etc.

Our economy is fragile, the $14 billion spent is a drop in the bucket compared to the domino effect situations like this could cause. If I blame Obama, it's for not being aggressive enough to make our economy more stable in the future and not protecting this country from the corporations that run it.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Did you read the article? Do you know how much the tax payer could have possibly lost had the bailout never occurred? The bailout was $80 billion, the taxpayer will end up footing the bill for $14 billion AND the destruction of the U.S. auto industry was avoided. I think that's actually a win, not a loss. I can't even begin to imagine how much it would have cost us if those companies folded. Remember, it's not just those workers/shareholders affected, it would be all the dealers, etc.

Our economy is fragile, the $14 billion spent is a drop in the bucket compared to the domino effect situations like this could cause. If I blame Obama, it's for not being aggressive enough to make our economy more stable in the future and not protecting this country from the corporations that run it.

In other words, the stimulus could have been bigger

GM should have been allowed to go thru a proper bankruptcy because of its atrocious business model. A model that is currently going on today. Nobody wants their products. The big loser was ford because they could have went into those factories and retrofitted them to make their products. Same thing with the suppliers, they could have honored those contracts. Ford has a better business model and makes superior products compared to GM

Businesses go bankrupt all the time. This was nothing but a payoff to Obamas supporters in the UAW

[Syd]

WF, you know every automaker in the world gets massive government subsidies right? The need to create durable goods is paramount to any sort of romanticized notion of bankrupt businesses coming out stronger. They don't, the names just get bought by foreign companies and the country that used to produce instead consumes.

[foodcourtdruide]

In other words, the stimulus could have been bigger

GM should have been allowed to go thru a proper bankruptcy because of its atrocious business model. A model that is currently going on today. Nobody wants their products. The big loser was ford because they could have went into those factories and retrofitted them to make their products. Same thing with the suppliers, they could have honored those contracts. Ford has a better business model and makes superior products compared to GM

Businesses go bankrupt all the time. This was nothing but a payoff to Obamas supporters in the UAW

Ok, WF. No one benefitted off the stimulus but the UAW. If that's going to be your argument then I'm not wasting my time.

[foodcourtdruide]

WF, you know every automaker in the world gets massive government subsidies right? The need to create durable goods is paramount to any sort of romanticized notion of bankrupt businesses coming out stronger. They don't, the names just get bought by foreign companies and the country that used to produce instead consumes.

They must all have supports in the UAW. That's the only reason WF thinks something like this can happen. Totally absurd.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Ok, WF. No one benefitted off the stimulus but the UAW. If that's going to be your argument then I'm not wasting my time.

Theres also congressmen and senators on both sides who benefited from all the pork. Gov't bureaucracies benefited . Also the recipient class has enjoyed the continued flow of transfer payments

All this spending has only made the gov't more bloated. Wheres all the infrasctucture improvements? Bike paths dont count

[Dudeman]

Theres also congressmen and senators on both sides who benefited from all the pork. Gov't bureaucracies benefited . Also the recipient class has enjoyed the continued flow of transfer payments

All this spending has only made the gov't more bloated. Wheres all the infrasctucture improvements? Bike paths dont count

http://stimuluswatch.org/2.0/performance_places/state/CT

Why don't bike paths count? Who made that rule?

(And I know in my city they rebuilt one of the 2 main runways used for international flights, which apparently had a lot of cracks and hadn't been fixed in a long time.)

[foodcourtdruide]

Theres also congressmen and senators on both sides who benefited from all the pork. Gov't bureaucracies benefited . Also the recipient class has enjoyed the continued flow of transfer payments

All this spending has only made the gov't more bloated. Wheres all the infrasctucture improvements? Bike paths dont count

Again.

The $80 billion stimulus prevented the destruction of GM. Do you agree?

It will likely end up costing the tax payer $14 billion.

It seems like common sense that the cost of GM going bankrupt would have ultimately cost the tax payer more than $14 billion. How much would the unemployment costs been alone?

I don't know what else to say. I know you don't like the government or the working class, but this seems like a successful risk.

[Jujubees2]

http://stimuluswatch.org/2.0/performance_places/state/CT

Why don't bike paths count? Who made that rule?

(And I know in my city they rebuilt one of the 2 main runways used for international flights, which apparently had a lot of cracks and hadn't been fixed in a long time.)

I'm going to be a Hydrographic Surveyor! They got almost $4 million!

[Dudeman]

All this spending has only made the gov't more bloated. Wheres all the infrasctucture improvements? Bike paths dont count

Here are just a few I found happening in CT- bridges, runways, cops, and sewage treatment plants (Rand Paul's massive shits that he can't flush have to go somewhere.)


Project Description: TRUMBULL; RT 15; FROM MOREHOUSE HWY TO RT 8; RESURFACING, BRIDGE, AND SAFETY IMPROVEMENTS. (NO ADDED CAPACITY) (CN)
Infrastructure Description: 4R Restoration and Rehabilitation. Invest in transportation.
Jobs Summary: This project has not been let. (Total jobs reported: 27)
----------
Project Description: The project will consist of the milling, paving, grooving and striping of Runway 15-33 at Bradley. Also included is the installation of 2 new electrical duct bank crossings. The Runway is sceduled to reopen on October 2nd. All major work is completed this quarter except for punch list items and electrical work on in-pavement lighting.
Infrastructure Description: To preserve and creat jobs and promote economic recovery. To invest in Transportation infrastructure that will provide long-term economic benefits and enhance the National Aviation System
Jobs Summary: Jobs that were retained for this project include, Engineering design, Construction and Construction Inspection (Total jobs reported: 41)
----
Project Description: FAIRFIELD; RT 15; REPLACEMENT OF BRIDGE# 00743 OVER MILL RIVER. (NO ADDED CAPACITY) (CN)
Infrastructure Description: Bridge Replacement, No Added Capacity. Invest in transportation.
----
Project Description: Construction of improvements to Putnam Water Pollution Control Facility consisting of improvements to the treatment process and the quality of treated effluent discharged into the Quinebaug River, and including the headworks, disinfections system upgrades, new maintenance and administration buidling, construction of a third secondary settling tank, upgrade of existing sludge pumping system, repair of existing buildings, update of plant's electric service, modificiation to aeration tanks, and addition of chemical phosphorus removal system. Contract has been signed with consulting design engineering firm

--------
Award Description: The COPS Hiring Recovery Program (CHRP) provides funding directly to law enforcement agencies to hire and/or rehire career law enforcement officers in an effort to create and preserve jobs, and to increase their community policing capacity and crime prevention efforts.

Project Description: All positions have been filled but are currently in the academy

Jobs Summary: 22 new hires, all positions have been filled

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Again.

The $80 billion stimulus prevented the destruction of GM. Do you agree?

It will likely end up costing the tax payer $14 billion.

It seems like common sense that the cost of GM going bankrupt would have ultimately cost the tax payer more than $14 billion. How much would the unemployment costs been alone?

I don't know what else to say. I know you don't like the government or the working class, but this seems like a successful risk.

GM should have died or gone thru a proper bankruptcy and shouldn't have been propped up to repay his handlers at the UAW. Other companies could have stepped in and taken over those facilities.

What is the working class anyway? Just because someone is white collar or owns a small business doesnt mean they arent working class. Thats like people in the midwest calling themselves the only real Americans.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Here are just a few I found happening in CT- bridges, runways, cops, and sewage treatment plants (Rand Paul's massive shits that he can't flush have to go somewhere.)


Project Description: TRUMBULL; RT 15; FROM MOREHOUSE HWY TO RT 8; RESURFACING, BRIDGE, AND SAFETY IMPROVEMENTS. (NO ADDED CAPACITY) (CN)
Infrastructure Description: 4R Restoration and Rehabilitation. Invest in transportation.
Jobs Summary: This project has not been let. (Total jobs reported: 27)
----------
Project Description: The project will consist of the milling, paving, grooving and striping of Runway 15-33 at Bradley. Also included is the installation of 2 new electrical duct bank crossings. The Runway is sceduled to reopen on October 2nd. All major work is completed this quarter except for punch list items and electrical work on in-pavement lighting.
Infrastructure Description: To preserve and creat jobs and promote economic recovery. To invest in Transportation infrastructure that will provide long-term economic benefits and enhance the National Aviation System
Jobs Summary: Jobs that were retained for this project include, Engineering design, Construction and Construction Inspection (Total jobs reported: 41)
----
Project Description: FAIRFIELD; RT 15; REPLACEMENT OF BRIDGE# 00743 OVER MILL RIVER. (NO ADDED CAPACITY) (CN)
Infrastructure Description: Bridge Replacement, No Added Capacity. Invest in transportation.
----
Project Description: Construction of improvements to Putnam Water Pollution Control Facility consisting of improvements to the treatment process and the quality of treated effluent discharged into the Quinebaug River, and including the headworks, disinfections system upgrades, new maintenance and administration buidling, construction of a third secondary settling tank, upgrade of existing sludge pumping system, repair of existing buildings, update of plant's electric service, modificiation to aeration tanks, and addition of chemical phosphorus removal system. Contract has been signed with consulting design engineering firm

--------
Award Description: The COPS Hiring Recovery Program (CHRP) provides funding directly to law enforcement agencies to hire and/or rehire career law enforcement officers in an effort to create and preserve jobs, and to increase their community policing capacity and crime prevention efforts.

Project Description: All positions have been filled but are currently in the academy

Jobs Summary: 22 new hires, all positions have been filled

At what cost to so called create those jobs. Estimates are over 100k to create a job that pays far less than that.

Obama wants another 50 billion in infrastructure spending. What happened to the hundreds of billions that were supposed to repave roads and fix bridges. It was almost 800 billion of one of the biggest wastes of money along with the Iraq AfPak wars.


If something fails just spend more money by borrrowing from the ChiComs

[Dudeman]

At what cost to so called create those jobs. Estimates are over 100k to create a job that pays far less than that.

Obama wants another 50 billion in infrastructure spending. What happened to the hundreds of billions that were supposed to repave roads and fix bridges. It was almost 800 billion of one of the biggest wastes of money along with the Iraq AfPak wars.


If something fails just spend more money by borrrowing from the ChiComs

First you said, "where's the infrastructure, and I don't want to count bike paths" blah blah blah. You were proved wrong. Now you change your argument to cost efficiency or something... yeah there are jobs and projects, but they should be cheap to create and building stuff shouldn't cost money. Pick an argument and back it up. Don't just say shit, get proven wrong, and then try to come up with something different. It isn't like 100K goes to just the salary, it goes to everything associated with the project. Build a new hospital for example. Obviously it costs more than just the salaries... materials, equipment (for building and actual function (like MRI machines), etc.

What a weird and desperate attempt on your part to deflect the fact that there are tons of examples that prove your whinning about no new infrastructure, other than bike paths, wrong.

Just say, "hey, that website totally proves my whinning about no new infrastructure other than bike paths totally wrong", and go back to your job.

[sailor]

GM should have died or gone thru a proper bankruptcy and shouldn't have been propped up to repay his handlers at the UAW. Other companies could have stepped in and taken over those facilities.

Sure worked for flint.

[disneyspy]

Sure worked for flint.

ooooh i dont know if you've been there but that town has gone to shit!
no company wants to go there,not even illegal aliens will go there!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

First you said, "where's the infrastructure, and I don't want to count bike paths" blah blah blah. You were proved wrong. Now you change your argument to cost efficiency or something... yeah there are jobs and projects, but they should be cheap to create and building stuff shouldn't cost money. Pick an argument and back it up. Don't just say shit, get proven wrong, and then try to come up with something different. It isn't like 100K goes to just the salary, it goes to everything associated with the project. Build a new hospital for example. Obviously it costs more than just the salaries... materials, equipment (for building and actual function (like MRI machines), etc.

What a weird and desperate attempt on your part to deflect the fact that there are tons of examples that prove your whinning about no new infrastructure, other than bike paths, wrong.

Because the government never overpays for anything right? How naive of you

I drive to and from work going to suburban NYC and I dont see hundreds of men working on various projects. Pointing out a couple of projects in a small state isn't convncing. There are still potholes, bridges that are in bad shape for example. All these so called projects isnt bringing the unemployment number down.


How am I proven wrong when there is a net job LOSS since the stimulus was passed. Thats like saying you go to vegas with 100k you lose 90K but win back 10k. Guess what you have no winnings.

The stimulus was supposed to save the entire economy not just some pet projects.

[Dudeman]

Sure worked for flint.

as WF implied, the free market will fix everything

[WRESTLINGFAN]

ooooh i dont know if you've been there but that town has gone to shit!
no company wants to go there,not even illegal aliens will go there!

Bloomberg wants them all in Detroit

[WRESTLINGFAN]

as WF implied, the free market will fix everything

let the federal government manage it. Their track recors is outstanding

[Dudeman]

Because the government never overpays for anything right? How naive of you

I drive to and from work going to suburban NYC and I dont see hundreds of men working on various projects. Pointing out a couple of projects in a small state isn't convncing. There are still potholes, bridges that are in bad shape for example.

All these so called projects isnt bringing the unemployment number down.




1. The world isn't just based on your drive to and from work on suburban roads. That's a big issue you need to learn.

2. The job trend looks a lot better than how it was when W. Bush and the rest of the Ron Paul Republican party was in the executive branch.

Solved? No way. Better? Yes way.


http://5thstate.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/bush-obama-joblossgrowth-ded2007-apr2010.png

[WRESTLINGFAN]

1. The world isn't just based on your drive to and from work on suburban roads. That's a big issue you need to learn.

2. The job trend looks a lot better than how it was when W. Bush and the rest of the Ron Paul Republican party was in the executive branch

http://hominidviews.com/myContent/Jobloss12-2009.png

Why are you comparing Ron Paul to Dubya


There are still net job losses


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/01/usa-campaign-obama-idUSN0115187020110601


"Economists say the U.S. economy must grow by at least 3 percent every quarter to lower the jobless rate, but gross domestic product slowed to only 1.8 percent in the first three months of the year"


Obamas handlers said the rate wouldnt go past 8%. Add that list to the gaffes of government like when Rummy said the Iraq war might 60 6 weeks or 6 months or when Cheney said the Iraq insurgency are in its last throes

[Dudeman]

Why are you comparing Ron Paul to Dubya


There are still net job losses


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/01/usa-campaign-obama-idUSN0115187020110601


"Economists say the U.S. economy must grow by at least 3 percent every quarter to lower the jobless rate, but gross domestic product slowed to only 1.8 percent in the first three months of the year"


Obamas handlers said the rate wouldnt go past 8%. Add that list to the gaffes of government like when Rummy said the Iraq war might 60 6 weeks or 6 months or when Cheney said the Iraq insurgency are in its last throes

like I said, "solved? no. better? yes"

[Dude!]

Obamas handlers said the rate wouldnt go past 8%. Add that list to the gaffes of government like when Rummy said the Iraq war might 60 6 weeks or 6 months or when Cheney said the Iraq insurgency are in its last throes

or when obama said
the Libyan "action"
would last days not weeks
(we are now into months)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

or when obama said
the Libyan "action"
would last days not weeks
(we are now into months)

All while violating the War powers act.

Still waiting for Gitmo to be closed.

[Dudeman]

Solved? No way. Better? Yes way.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Jan 2009 unemployment 7.6 %


Apr 2011 unemployment 9%


Better?

[sailor]

ooooh i dont know if you've been there but that town has gone to shit!
no company wants to go there,not even illegal aliens will go there!

Oh, literal DS!

[Dudeman]

Jan 2009 unemployment 7.6 %
Apr 2011 unemployment 9%
Better?

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

You know (but ignore) the important trend (losing less jobs a month to even gaining jobs... yes that's much better):

http://5thstate.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/bush-obama-joblossgrowth-ded2007-apr2010.png

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Better?


http://www.cnbc.com/id/43239586

[Syd]

GM should have died or gone thru a proper bankruptcy and shouldn't have been propped up to repay his handlers at the UAW. Other companies could have stepped in and taken over those facilities.

What is the working class anyway? Just because someone is white collar or owns a small business doesnt mean they arent working class. Thats like people in the midwest calling themselves the only real Americans.

Proper bankruptcy -- move the jobs overseas and allow profits of durable goods to be funneled out of the country so that non-workers like you can be re-assured the debt is under control (meanwhile FUCK the trade deficit or the creation of wealth)

Or, moved to states that have low social mobility rates to make sure the workers don't get anywhere out of the poverty. Permanent slave wages, the dream of Capital. Which means people like you will be upset because the current "best" worker would be a latino (likely illegal) woman who will get paid a pittance.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Proper bankruptcy -- move the jobs overseas and allow profits of durable goods to be funneled out of the country so that non-workers like you can be re-assured the debt is under control (meanwhile FUCK the trade deficit or the creation of wealth)

Or, moved to states that have low social mobility rates to make sure the workers don't get anywhere out of the poverty. Permanent slave wages, the dream of Capital. Which means people like you will be upset because the current "best" worker would be a latino (likely illegal) woman who will get paid a pittance.

Airlines went thru bankruptcy, why shouldnt GM

A line factory worker does just fine in a right to work state. Are people in the south making slave wages at the Kia or BMW plants?

Speaking of latinos. GM sure does love them

as they are expanding south of the border

[Syd]

Airlines went through bankruptcy and are still teeter on the edge of bankruptcy and routinely exploit customers.

So, apparently the free market didn't work there.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

In a true "free market" these companies should have gone down in flames. For 35 years GM and Chrysler sold cars that people simply did not want. Having the government intervene and try to manipulate peoples buying habits have failed.

No one wants these cars pre and post bailout

[Dude!]

Airlines went through bankruptcy and are still teeter on the edge of bankruptcy and routinely exploit customers.

So, apparently the free market didn't work there.

exploit? how so?

i hate what the airlines
have become but i don't
feel exploited by them

if i choose to fly, i fly
if i don't, i don't

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Airlines went through bankruptcy and are still teeter on the edge of bankruptcy and routinely exploit customers.

So, apparently the free market didn't work there.



Exploit meaning feeling up nuns and toddlers? You can thank big sis's DHS for that. The Bush admin doesn't get off so easy since the DHS under him started the shoes off and no liquids policy

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Chrysler paid back all their loans...

Sure they did

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/05/truth-behind-chrysler-s-fake-auto-bailout-pay-back

[Syd]

In a true "free market" these companies should have gone down in flames. For 35 years GM and Chrysler sold cars that people simply did not want. Having the government intervene and try to manipulate peoples buying habits have failed.

No one wants these cars pre and post bailout

People wanted the cars -- the problem is through the 90s they rode the SUV craze and never really embraced new technology. 2005ish and on consumers weren't interested, for sure, but 35 years? You're out of your mind.

They folded the profits back to the investors instead of having a long term outlook -- they factionalized their different national entities as well. Toyota, for the most part, uses the same chassis for each size car throughout the world.

GM, Ford, Chrysler? Different chassis for different cars for different regions. Economy of scale isn't working in their favor.

Plus, up until recently most were still depending on outdated, inefficient engines that were just cheap to make but had shit for gas mileage. Whereas that was fine and dandy, by the time Katrina happened people realized that the shit-ass engines they were throwing in car weren't cutting the mustard.

As far as exploiting customers goes, try flying one time and see how much shit gets tickytacked onto your bill or find out how they needed to have a fucking airline passenger bill of rights because the airlines were in such dire straits to show short term profit.

[cougarjake13]

exploit? how so?

i hate what the airlines
have become but i don't
feel exploited by them

if i choose to fly, i fly
if i don't, i don't



well at the time the last gas prices were near 4$ they added the charge per bag fees among other fees and never took them away


thats kinda exploiting the situation

[WRESTLINGFAN]

People wanted the cars -- the problem is through the 90s they rode the SUV craze and never really embraced new technology. 2005ish and on consumers weren't interested, for sure, but 35 years? You're out of your mind.

They folded the profits back to the investors instead of having a long term outlook -- they factionalized their different national entities as well. Toyota, for the most part, uses the same chassis for each size car throughout the world.

GM, Ford, Chrysler? Different chassis for different cars for different regions. Economy of scale isn't working in their favor.

Plus, up until recently most were still depending on outdated, inefficient engines that were just cheap to make but had shit for gas mileage. Whereas that was fine and dandy, by the time Katrina happened people realized that the shit-ass engines they were throwing in car weren't cutting the mustard.

As far as exploiting customers goes, try flying one time and see how much shit gets tickytacked onto your bill or find out how they needed to have a fucking airline passenger bill of rights because the airlines were in such dire straits to show short term profit.

In the 90's people wanted the SUV's but were they buying those gems from what they were cranking out during the 70's and 80's?

As far as today I would never buy a GM. But if I were forced to Id probably get one of the Caddy's

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Pay up bytchezzzz. GM hasnt taKen enough


http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/574951/201106091846/Government-Motors-Pushes-Gas-Tax-Bailout.htm

[JimBeam]

Wouldn't the oil companies fight this move ?

At this point I think they have more muscle than GM.

[Jujubees2]

Auto industry, seeing new life, on hiring spree (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43657765/ns/business-autos/)

[high fly]

Chrysler paid back all their loans...

Sure they did

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/05/truth-behind-chrysler-s-fake-auto-bailout-pay-back


I liked this line in the opinion piece you posted as if it were "news":

"... So, to recap, the Obama Energy Department is loaning a foreign car company $3.5 billion so that it can pay the Treasury Department $7.6 billion ..."

Looks as if a way out of the debt crisis has been found.......

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Old habits die hard


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-05/gm-s-widening-truck-inventories-risk-return-to-bad-habits-of-2008-cars.html

[Syd]

Old habits die hard


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-05/gm-s-widening-truck-inventories-risk-return-to-bad-habits-of-2008-cars.html

Actually it's a good habit -- those trucks will be sold and right now wages are depressed and inflation is non-existent.

[Bob Impact]

Actually it's a good habit -- those trucks will be sold and right now wages are depressed and inflation is non-existent.

http://www.forecasts.org/images/leading-indicator/inflation.gif

[hanso]

http://i.imgur.com/xs9f8.jpg
Das good ya

[Syd]

http://www.forecasts.org/images/leading-indicator/inflation.gif

counterpoint:

10-year Treasury yield hangs below 3%

http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/12/markets/bondcenter/treasuries/

Based on the latest quarterly reports from S&P 500 companies, the 256 companies increased cash and short-term investments by a combined 78 percent from a year earlier while reducing spending by $30.5 billion to $41.2 billion. For all current S&P 500 members, cash rose about 14 percent to $2.18 trillion, the most on record in nine years of Bloomberg data.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a6kXsL1Q5FYc

money talks, bullshit walks. Don't sit around listening to whatever bullshit Fox News is saying about inflation because the truth is bonds and cash reserves say THE EXACT OPPOSITE. So either Fox News is fucking brilliant and they know something the rest of the world doesn't or they're forcing their agenda that there is inflation and we must stop it.

Coincidentally, oddly enough even, some inflation is fantastic for consumers since it makes loans and debts cheaper to repay. Funny how Fox News would push corporate propaganda on consumers, eh? Oh, wait, it isn't at all.

[Syd]

So you think, maybe they're holding onto cash because of big bad government regulation forcing banks to hold onto larger than normal cash reserves. Reasonable enough, oh, oops, here are the companies that aren't banks hoarding cash:

The Federal Reserve reported Thursday that nonfinancial companies had socked away $1.84 trillion in cash and other liquid assets as of the end of March, up 26% from a year earlier and the largest-ever increase in records going back to 1952.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704312104575298652567988246.html

If inflation was a concern, why would companies be sitting on massive reserves of cash that is losing value? More proof that taxes need to be raised to force companies to spend money and increase aggregate demand. Lower taxes are doing nothing more than inflating bank accounts of people so rich they make in a month (or less) what most Americans make in a year.

[foodcourtdruide]

So you think, maybe they're holding onto cash because of big bad government regulation forcing banks to hold onto larger than normal cash reserves. Reasonable enough, oh, oops, here are the companies that aren't banks hoarding cash:



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704312104575298652567988246.html

If inflation was a concern, why would companies be sitting on massive reserves of cash that is losing value? More proof that taxes need to be raised to force companies to spend money and increase aggregate demand. Lower taxes are doing nothing more than inflating bank accounts of people so rich they make in a month (or less) what most Americans make in a year.

But the less money corporations are taxed, the more money they will be able to spend on things like jobs! This is ALWAYS 100% the case!!!!!

[Earlshog]

But the less money corporations are taxed, the more money they will be able to spend on things like jobs! This is ALWAYS 100% the case!!!!!


Exactly... Let the job creators create jobs!!!

Remember how the Bush cuts stimulated the economy. :unsure:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Savin and creatin, a creatin and a savin
:lol::lol::lol::lol:


The stimulus package was supposed to stimulate the economy not wreck it even more :furious:

[Dudeman]

Savin and creatin, a creatin and a savin
:lol::lol::lol::lol:


The stimulus package was supposed to stimulate the economy not wreck it even more :furious:

system that isn't gaining jobs fast enough versus system that was hemorrhaging jobs

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_7Sia0Gazdj0/TNdUYgTMXHI/AAAAAAAAAxk/5AF5Bq-0MLk/bush-obama-job-growth.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://www.gop.com/images/research/021710gap.jpg


the stimulus wasnt big enough right ?

[Syd]

http://www.gop.com/images/research/021710gap.jpg


the stimulus wasnt big enough right ?

Considering how companies are stockpiling money instead of creating jobs, yeah, it wasn't big enough. There's not enough demand to create more jobs. The best solution to spur demand is to either increase taxes to encourage companies to spend money and use the purchases as write-offs or, better yet, increase government spending.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No wonder American cars are built like shit.

http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?id=642190

[TripleSkeet]

No wonder American cars are built like shit.

http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?id=642190

They should get some illegals in that plant. Not only would cars be built faster and more efficient, but their labor cost would be nothing.

[Bob Impact]

Considering how companies are stockpiling money instead of creating jobs, yeah, it wasn't big enough. There's not enough demand to create more jobs. The best solution to spur demand is to either increase taxes to encourage companies to spend money and use the purchases as write-offs or, better yet, increase government spending.

That last sentence is the greatest example of shifting into maximum overtroll I've ever seen, well done.

[Syd]

That last sentence is the greatest example of shifting into maximum overtroll I've ever seen, well done.

How so? Demand is low. How do you fix it? Ask our corporate benefactors "oh pretty please hire people to jobs to supply for a non-existent product demand"

or, increase taxes to encourage spending or increase government spending?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Another loss on an "investment"

http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/21/autos/chrysler_government_exit/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=hp_t2

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GM To owners pre bankruptcy DROP DEAD


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/19/gm-impala-lawsuit-idUSN1E77I0Z820110819

Like it ever had any :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44178222/ns/business-autos/

[cougarjake13]

GM To owners pre bankruptcy DROP DEAD


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/19/gm-impala-lawsuit-idUSN1E77I0Z820110819

Like it ever had any :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44178222/ns/business-autos/




whats the cliff notes version ?

[SKANE]

Real nice of them...

General Motors Co (GM.N) is seeking to dismiss a lawsuit over a suspension problem on more than 400,000 Chevrolet Impalas from the 2007 and 2008 model years, saying it should not be responsible for repairs because the flaw predated its bankruptcy

[Bob Impact]

Real nice of them...

General Motors Co (GM.N) is seeking to dismiss a lawsuit over a suspension problem on more than 400,000 Chevrolet Impalas from the 2007 and 2008 model years, saying it should not be responsible for repairs because the flaw predated its bankruptcy

You stay classy GM.

[cougarjake13]

Real nice of them...

General Motors Co (GM.N) is seeking to dismiss a lawsuit over a suspension problem on more than 400,000 Chevrolet Impalas from the 2007 and 2008 model years, saying it should not be responsible for repairs because the flaw predated its bankruptcy



what the fuck does that have to do with it

cars fucked

you made the car

you gotta own it

[WRESTLINGFAN]

whats the cliff notes version ?


What Skane said


Also the Chevy volt is a dud

[SKANE]

What Skane said


Also the Chevy volt is a dud

But then why would they do this?


General Motors Co confirmed on Wednesday it will build a luxury electric car based on the technology used in its Volt plug-in hybrid for Cadillac as the automaker also studies plans for an all-electric small car for its mainstream Chevrolet brand.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/17/us-gm-electric-idUSTRE77G5H220110817

[disneyspy]

Pretty rediculous that CNW was the "research" marketing firm as the source,this is the same company that said a hummer was more fuel efficient than a prius,also since most of their sponsors are oil companies i wouldn't put too much stock in their analysis. Just the news that GM and Toyota were going to increase their production of electric vehicles was enough to lower the price of a barrel of oil,its like ronny b says,if the consumer tells a company they will pay for a product that is good for the environment that company will make that product. And i dont know if any of you know someone that tried to order a Volt but i do and there is a waiting list of like 10,000
Now about bankrupt proceedings,what do you people think happens when a company files?

[SKANE]

Do you have a link that shows Toyota and GM's announcement to build electric cars caused the price of oil to drop? I'd really like to read up on that.
And yes, technically GM is a different company. But don't you think that a company that took 52 billion from the US government and is looking to rebuild their reputation as well as their balance sheet would be better served honoring past products? Why would anyone buy a car from this GM?

[underdog]

Why would anyone buy a car from this GM?

Because Americans and Canadians are retarded.

[SKANE]

From the NY Times March 2009:


In a nutshell: The Obama warranty commitment program sets up special warranty accounts that will be used only if the automaker runs out of money. If that happens, the government will “appoint a program administrator who, together with the U.S. Government, will identify an auto service provider to supply warranty services.” Those accounts will be funded with 125 percent of the expected warranty cost. The automaker will contribute 15 percent and the government 110 percent. The federal funds will come from the Troubled Asset Relief Program.

That could be a lot of money (except, perhaps, by the government’s current standards). For example, G.M. paid $4.5 billion worldwide in 2007 on warranties and $3.9 billion during the first nine months of last year, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

A Treasury spokesman said the warranties would cover all vehicles, even those sold overseas. And although the program does not cover safety recalls, he said even an automaker in Chapter 11 bankruptcy would be required to pay for them.

In the case of a defect, an automaker is typically on the hook for a safety recall for a decade. A major recall could easily cost an automaker $50 million or more, said Clarence Ditlow, the executive director of the Center for Auto Safety.

General Motors has promised it will stand behind its warranty, although it is not clear how that would happen should it simply lack the funds. Chrysler’s statement –- issued last month and not revised — simply says: “We are committed to serving our customers.”

Wait, what happened?

[disneyspy]

Do you have a link that shows Toyota and GM's announcement to build electric cars caused the price of oil to drop? I'd really like to read up on that.
And yes, technically GM is a different company. But don't you think that a company that took 52 billion from the US government and is looking to rebuild their reputation as well as their balance sheet would be better served honoring past products? Why would anyone buy a car from this GM?

i don't have a specific link,did a quick search and couldn't find anything directly relating to it,i just based my comment on something i heard while flipping thru the channels and heard some financial analyst saying how speculators futures were down on oil with the announcements

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The other question is, who would be crazy enough to invest in GM? The shares have tanked big time since the IPO

[Syd]

The other question is, who would be crazy enough to invest in GM? The shares have tanked big time since the IPO

The entire economy has been tanking for the past few years and it's going to be shit for the next decade or so. Why invest in anything?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://rightbias.com/Images/Cartoons/wf40.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Obamas gotta pay back his union handlers


http://www.npr.org/2011/09/17/140563153/uaw-gets-5k-signing-bonus-in-gm-pact

[Syd]

Workers could get profit-sharing checks that are larger than the roughly $4,000 they received based on the company's earnings last year. But the formula was changed so it is tied only to GM's North American financial results, said the people.

Sounds like you just want to steal money from rich people. Class warfare! Go back to Liberia, communist.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GM To buy back Volts... With your tax dollars


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_VOLT_BATTERY_FIRE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-12-01-14-56-43

[Jujubees2]

GM To buy back Volts... With your tax dollars


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_VOLT_BATTERY_FIRE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-12-01-14-56-43

Chevy Volt highest rated by owners, Alpina B6 Biturbo Coupe, and Saab’s pretty screwed (http://jalopnik.com/5863686/chevy-volt-highest-rated-by-owners-alpina-b6-biturbo-coupe-and-saabs-pretty-screwed)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Chevy Volt highest rated by owners, Alpina B6 Biturbo Coupe, and Saab’s pretty screwed (http://jalopnik.com/5863686/chevy-volt-highest-rated-by-owners-alpina-b6-biturbo-coupe-and-saabs-pretty-screwed)

No wonder they are happy, they got a huge tax credit

[Syd]

I'm happy with my new union built Focus, WF! It's actually pretty damn impressive. More features than my old Subaru Legacy and really good fuel efficiency for a non-hybrid.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I'm happy with my new union built Focus, WF! It's actually pretty damn impressive. More features than my old Subaru Legacy and really good fuel efficiency for a non-hybrid.

To each his own. Ive always advocated for people to buy anything that fits their needs and likes.

[spoon]

To each his own. Ive always advocated for people to buy anything that fits their needs and likes.

USA USA!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

USA USA!

Damn straight. My Acura TL was built in Ohio

[Bob Impact]

I'm happy with my new union built Focus, WF! It's actually pretty damn impressive. More features than my old Subaru Legacy and really good fuel efficiency for a non-hybrid.

Really? My brother in law HATES his. I've only been in it once so this is certainly not a well qualified opinion but it was shaking quite a bit, didn't really seem like a quality motor.

[spoon]

Damn straight. My Acura TL was built in Ohio

Yet let's be honest WF, that screams world economy as well. Perhaps you should live the dream and buy american by americans!

Commie!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yet let's be honest WF, that screams world economy as well. Perhaps you should live the dream and buy american by americans!

Commie!

Americans built my car.


Just be honest that my car was built by non UAW workers, thats why youre outraged


What the fuck is an American car when the tranny is made in Mexico or China and its assembled in Detroit

[spoon]

Americans built my car.


Just be honest that my car was built by non UAW workers, thats why youre outraged


What the fuck is an American car when the tranny is made in Mexico or China and its assembled in Detroit

It's the reverse of your car, I fail to see this glaring difference? Both aren't fully US in any fucking way. As for the UAW comment, once again WF tries to change the subject bc my post had NOTHING to do with it. In fact, I didn't even think of it...not to mention I'm not outraged. I expect hypocrisy on top of lunacy from you on the hour. Add in a million links tied to an ideology that has blinded your ability to think objectively at all and walla! WF.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It's the reverse of your car, I fail to see this glaring difference? Both aren't fully US in any fucking way. As for the UAW comment, once again WF tries to change the subject bc my post had NOTHING to do with it. In fact, I didn't even think of it...not to mention I'm not outraged. I expect hypocrisy on top of lunacy from you on the hour. Add in a million links tied to an ideology that has blinded your ability to think objectively at all and walla! WF.

Hypocrisy? You said commie. A commie would want someone to buy what the government mandates.


I say buy the car that you want and fits your needs

In my opinion the Japanese car companies produce superior products compared to the big 3. Ive leased 4 Acuras since 1999 and have never had a problem with them, just the normal maintenance.

[spoon]

Hypocrisy? You said commie. A commie would want someone to buy what the government mandates.


I say buy the car that you want and fits your needs

In my opinion the Japanese car companies produce superior products compared to the big 3. Ive leased 4 Acuras since 1999 and have never had a problem with them, just the normal maintenance.

I agree on the quality of said cars, but you not only missed my point, but what I stated in the edit line!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

We are paying for this


http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16192

[Bob Impact]

I hate headline like that, most of the claims in that article are specious as best. Is funding energy efficiency research really where you want to draw your line in the sand on spending?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Buy a volt so it can be charged via dirty coal fired plants

They should rename it the Electric Edsel


Anyway you look at it, money was taken from taxes to prop up this product. BTW Heres GM's closing price 12/21/11


GM:US 20.3200


What a great investment!!!!!!

[Syd]

It's still more thermally efficient than other cars, meaning a net reduction in pollution.

[cougarjake13]

But how much
Enough to make a diff?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Nobody wants a volt

[cougarjake13]

I wouldn't drink one and now I'm not Gonna drive one

[Crispy123]

I wouldn't drink one and now I'm not Gonna drive one

drive a gas guzzler instead, they are only subsidized by the blood of American soldiers.

[Syd]

But how much
Enough to make a diff?

It's enough to drastically reduce gasoline usage, but, in a typical car is about 15-20% efficient (meaning 80%+ of the energy is wasted as heat) and a typical coal fired plant is 35-40% efficient so you have a net reduction in smog by virtue of how much energy is simply shat out as heat

It's all about reducing oil usage though. It won't be cheap, and the sooner we work toward concentrating on renewable resources and domestic energy supplies the better. If the world economy ever gets going again, you can fully expect oil to rocket toward $200/bbl even right now with the dollar having the highest value its had in decades. Once people start seeing $4.50, $5/gallon at gas stations they'll turn around on how important it is for America to roll up its sleeves and work toward efficient cars.

I do find that article funny, though. If only the GOP wasn't so in bed with military contractors we'd see the true cost of, say, airline tickets for carriers that fly Boeing jets. That's a massively, massively subsidized industry.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It's enough to drastically reduce gasoline usage, but, in a typical car is about 15-20% efficient (meaning 80%+ of the energy is wasted as heat) and a typical coal fired plant is 35-40% efficient so you have a net reduction in smog by virtue of how much energy is simply shat out as heat

It's all about reducing oil usage though. It won't be cheap, and the sooner we work toward concentrating on renewable resources and domestic energy supplies the better. If the world economy ever gets going again, you can fully expect oil to rocket toward $200/bbl even right now with the dollar having the highest value its had in decades. Once people start seeing $4.50, $5/gallon at gas stations they'll turn around on how important it is for America to roll up its sleeves and work toward efficient cars.

I do find that article funny, though. If only the GOP wasn't so in bed with military contractors we'd see the true cost of, say, airline tickets for carriers that fly Boeing jets. That's a massively, massively subsidized industry.

yea only the GOP are whores to the military industrial complex. Democrats arent. How naive is that?


Look who's one of the biggest profiteers around.


http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/10/11/dianne-feinstein-war-profiteer/

[Syd]

They both whore to it, I'm just saying that the GOP tends to whine more since their constituents buy that persecution complex shit up.

[Dude!]

I'm just saying that the GOP tends to whine more since their constituents buy that persecution complex shit up.

OMG...
have you never spoken to
a black democrat
a female democrat
a gay democrat
(in other words, the entire party)

persecution complex
is all their middle names

[WRESTLINGFAN]

OMG...
have you never spoken to
a black democrat
a female democrat
a gay democrat
(in other words, the entire party)

persecution complex
is all their middle names

Throw in illegal aliens too, as they are future Democrats

[Crispy123]

They both whore to it, I'm just saying that the GOP tends to whine more since their constituents buy that persecution complex shit up.

Hahaha. 2 whiny little bitches, right after you post this! Ahahahahahah...Its funny cuz its true! hahahahahah

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Hahaha. 2 whiny little bitches, right after you post this! Ahahahahahah...Its funny cuz its true! hahahahahah

I hope you own GM stock. I would love to see you whining about your losses