National Health Care Debate

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No outrage when union thugs beat up a BLACK CONSERVATIVE. everyones silent. No special comments by Keith Olbermann.


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[A.J.]

No outrage when union thugs beat up a BLACK CONSERVATIVE. everyones silent. No special comments by Keith Olbermann.


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There should be. That's an endangered species.

[Serpico1103]

No outrage when union thugs beat up a BLACK CONSERVATIVE. everyones silent. No special comments by Keith Olbermann.


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I am sure fair and balanced fox news and opinion will cover it.

[Dude!]

I am sure fair and balanced fox news and opinion will cover it.

fox covers all kind of crappy people
like the interview with obama
last night

[Serpico1103]

fox covers all kind of crappy people
like the interview with obama
last night
Love it or leave it pinko.

[angrymissy]

No outrage when union thugs beat up a BLACK CONSERVATIVE. everyones silent. No special comments by Keith Olbermann.


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Anyone beating up anyone, or demeaning anyone, is not acceptable.

PS - that guy had no job or health insurance and was asking for "donations" to cover his injuries. HANDOUTS FTW.

[foodcourtdruide]

Yeah, let's pick out a video of a few nuts to justify how bad people who are against this health care movement are....typical liberal tactic....

Yet, you fail to point out how politicians in both Nebraska and Louisiana are being bribed for their vote......Or how Obama is threatening political support to Dem's who don't give their vote......Or how Obama and Pelosi are backing away from their promise to make this a public vote.....

Yeah, way to tell the entire story....

Hey, why don't you make a similar post to this regarding conservatives for WRESTLINGFAN's video?

[angrymissy]

I also don't remember Obama promising a public vote on health care. Does anyone have a link? I can't find anything on it.

[sailor]

Anyone beating up anyone, or demeaning anyone, is not acceptable.

you're right, we should close the politics forum.

[foodcourtdruide]

you're right, we should close the politics forum.

Let's do it.

[underdog]

you're right, we should close the politics forum.

No one can have an argument on this board without being condescending.

[Furtherman]

No one can have an argument on this board without being condescending.

Sez you, old man. Obamacare won't cover your walker!!!!

[angrymissy]

Shut up stupid heads!

[underdog]

Sez you, old man. Obamacare won't cover your walker!!!!

ARRRGGG GOD DAMN LIBERALS!! ARG!

[angrymissy]

omg give it a rest YOU FUCKING COMMIE!

[foodcourtdruide]

No one can have an argument on this board without being condescending.

You would think that.

[The Bends]

Your shtick is gettin old. OMG LIBERALZ!!!

Video is relevant to discussion, and there are plenty of people out there at these rallies like this. Just take a look at the fucking mob mentality that starts once the first guy gets going. I love the fear you represent in all of your posts.......

Instead of commenting on any of the valid points I made about Obama's neglectful healthcare push.....You bring up the antics of people who protest.....Or post a video of a few retards.....

Silly liberal!

Go away and do what you do best....Calling white people racist....Something happened at Walmart...Go take up that cause...

[The Bends]

How do you post and do a radio show at the same time? :innocent: Yeah, way to avoid the subject matter....

Silly liberal!

[Ogre]

No one can have an argument on this board without being condescending.

QFT

[SonOfSmeagol]

Video is relevant to discussion, and there are plenty of people out there at these rallies like this. Just take a look at the fucking mob mentality that starts once the first guy gets going.

Not seeing the “mob mentality”. Two guys yelled at one guy and that was it. Also, they weren’t “teabaggers”. It was ralliers from both sides of the hc debate. The actual clip from the source - Columbus Dispatch - presents much more balanced coverage:

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/multimedia/video/video.html?video=949486

You got your clip from progressohio.org (a site with an obvious agenda btw), and they chose to edit the actual version, including the erroneous “teabagger” intro and the addition of their own commentary including a ridiculous “If they win we all lose” at the end. Inflammatory, sensationalistic, and as I said, unhelpful.

I'm just sayin.

[angrymissy]

Not seeing the “mob mentality”. Two guys yelled at one guy and that was it. Also, they weren’t “teabaggers”. It was ralliers from both sides of the hc debate. The actual clip from the source - Columbus Dispatch - presents much more balanced coverage:

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/multimedia/video/video.html?video=949486

You got your clip from progressohio.org (a site with an obvious agenda btw), and they chose to edit the actual version, including the erroneous “teabagger” intro and the addition of their own commentary including a ridiculous “If they win we all lose” at the end. Inflammatory, sensationalistic, and as I said, unhelpful.

I'm just sayin.

More balanced coverage? It shows these people doing exactly the same thing. Mob mentality, check out the guy throwing dollars and looking to the crowd for approval while they all scream in this guys face.

Do you agree with what these people did to that man?

[angrymissy]

I love the fear you represent in all of your posts.......

Instead of commenting on any of the valid points I made about Obama's neglectful healthcare push.....You bring up the antics of people who protest.....Or post a video of a few retards.....

Silly liberal!

Go away and do what you do best....Calling white people racist....Something happened at Walmart...Go take up that cause...

Yes, I call white people racist and check into things at Walmart. Yep. That's what I do because I'm a libby libberson!

Give it a rest.

I did comment on your Obama comments. Like I said, when did Obama promise that there would be a public vote on healthcare?

[Dan 'Hampton]

Where's epo I want my cheaper healthcare. He promised it two weeks ago.

[Serpico1103]

Where's epo I want my cheaper healthcare. He promised it two weeks ago.

He is busy beating up black conservatives.

[Dan 'Hampton]

Him and his ilk are just as bad as beck. Ech.

[SonOfSmeagol]

More balanced coverage? It shows these people doing exactly the same thing. Mob mentality, check out the guy throwing dollars and looking to the crowd for approval while they all scream in this guys face.

Do you agree with what these people did to that man?

No I do not. Nothing I have said indicates that I even remotely agree with what those two guys (not “all”, btw) yelled at the other guy. By more balance I thought it was clear that I was referring to the event, not the specific incident. I also pointed out the factual errors and the context in which the progressohio.org version was presented. As I said, I don’t think the incident represented the views of those present, nor of most of those against the bill. It’s a clear outlier.

[The Bends]

Yes, I call white people racist and check into things at Walmart. Yep. That's what I do because I'm a libby libberson!

Give it a rest.

I did comment on your Obama comments. Like I said, when did Obama promise that there would be a public vote on healthcare?
No, you choose to comment about one aspect of my Obama comments.....

Read more....follow politics if you want to talk about them.....Obama promised an open, up and down vote on healthcare....which, like so many other things, he's already backed out of.

[The Bends]

No I do not. Nothing I have said indicates that I even remotely agree with what those two guys (not “all”, btw) yelled at the other guy. By more balance I thought it was clear that I was referring to the event, not the specific incident. I also pointed out the factual errors and the context in which the progressohio.org version was presented. As I said, I don’t think the incident represented the views of those present, nor of most of those against the bill. It’s a clear outlier. Why give her the satisfaction of an answer.....She used a silly liberal talking point....Nothing you said even slightly hinted that you agree with what those guys did....

[The Bends]

In the end, the health care push is about Obama's political ego....He has too much invested in its passing.. That's the only explanation for the dirty politics going on to pass it... With so many American's against it, and so many doctor's unwilling to support it, why else would he push so hard...Obama has rushed this thing from the very beginning...and it's passing will result in more government power over our lives....terriific!

[Pitdoc]

In the end, the health care push is about Obama's political ego....He has too much invested in its passing.. That's the only explanation for the dirty politics going on to pass it... With so many American's against it, and so many doctor's unwilling to support it, why else would he push so hard...Obama has rushed this thing from the very beginning...and it's passing will result in more government power over our lives....terriific!

Hmm.Well, lets take this piece by piece

1. THIS IS ABOUT OBAMA'S POLITICAL EGO- Well, it's sure as hell what he CAMPAIGNED on. And polls then ( and now, by the way, though some Fox polls say the exact opposite) says its one of the reasons we elected him. That means a MAJORITY of the voters

2. DIRTY POLITICS TO PASS IT- You mean the Un-American , obviously Nazi , "reconciliation? Yeah, its what the Republicans used oh so many times when BUSH was in office(like passing his tax cuts 50-50, with Cheney breaking the tie) ."Deem to pass" ? Republicans used it over Dems 2 to 1 in the last 20 yrs. "Secret meetings " (which Ant likes to bray about ) - Only SECRET meeting the Dems had was when they wanted to go this alone, and decided against it( thus delaying this vote for another 4 months) Obama's big mistake was assuming that any Republican would WANT to be bipartisan , as opposing to getting back into power by any means .

3.OBAMA HAS "RUSHED THIS VOTE"- Yeah, Over a year to get a bill passed , really running it through.But there is a reason why he brought it up first. Because if he doesn't get it done now, it will NEVER happen .Remember when the Repubs killed the Hillary Care Bill in 93? How they promised to "get health reform the right way?" Never happened.Because both the Repubs & the Dems are pretty much bought & paid for , when it comes to several things, like health care & Banking.

4.MORE GOVERNMENT POWER OVER OUR LIVES- It's EXACTLY the same thing the Republicans said when Johnson got Medicare through .Try getting any Repub to say that about Medicare now.Medicare in the 60s was just as hard fought over, but Johnson had more skill with dealing with Congress,having basically run it for a decade.But it lost him Democratic seats( well that, & the Civil Rights Act, which as he foretold, lost him the South for generations)

I've watched all this shit, from "Death Panels " ( first proposed by a Republican) to "Obama the Socialist", to "The majority of the American people don't WANT health reform " . The Democrats should just grow some balls, pass this thing, and then CAMPAIGN on it. Jesus, the CBO just said it will SAVE money over its length .

Okay..maybe too much caffeine

[A.J.]

I also don't remember Obama promising a public vote on health care. Does anyone have a link? I can't find anything on it.

It wasn't the vote -- it was the negotiations on the details (if I remember correctly).

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I thought Barry wanted to mend fences with the Muslim world. Here was his chance to visit the country of Indonesia with the worlds biggest Muslim population. I hope they tear that statue of him down Saddam style

[Jujubees2]

I thought Barry wanted to mend fences with the Muslim world. Here was his chance to visit the country of Indonesia with the worlds biggest Muslim population. I hope they tear that statue of him down Saddam style

If he went then you'd be bitching about him being out of the country while the biggest healthcare bill in history is being debated.

[Serpico1103]

In the end, the health care push is about Obama's political ego....He has too much invested in its passing.. That's the only explanation for the dirty politics going on to pass it... With so many American's against it, and so many doctor's unwilling to support it, why else would he push so hard...Obama has rushed this thing from the very beginning...and it's passing will result in more government power over our lives....terriific!
It's because he is black, isn't it?

[Jujubees2]

It's because he is black, isn't it?

What? Obama is black?

[Serpico1103]

What? Obama is black?
Racist. You didn't think a black man could possibly be president. My white guilt is burning a hole in my chest. All praise to obama.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If he went then you'd be bitching about him being out of the country while the biggest healthcare bill in history is being debated.

Its obama so he can blow off foreign leaders.

[underdog]

Silly liberal!

Silly liberal!

Exactly.

[epo]

I thought Barry wanted to mend fences with the Muslim world. Here was his chance to visit the country of Indonesia with the worlds biggest Muslim population. I hope they tear that statue of him down Saddam style
I can't wait for him to go to recruit more immigrants.

[Dude!]

Racist. You didn't think a black man could possibly be president. My white guilt is burning a hole in my chest. All praise to obama.

obama's performance as president
will end our failed experiment with
negro presidents
for another 225 years

in that respect, it will have been
a success

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I can't wait for him to go to recruit more immigrants.

Since Muslims are forbidden to drink at least they wont be driving drunk when they are here

[Serpico1103]

obama's performance as president
will end our failed experiment with
negro presidents
for another 225 years

in that respect, it will have been
a success
When was the last good white one?

[Dude!]

When was the last good white one?

Reagan!

[foodcourtdruide]

Reagan!

That explains a lot.

[Dude!]

That explains a lot.

so does that comment

[foodcourtdruide]

so does that comment

so does that comment

[Serpico1103]

Reagan!
How did he resolve our iraq/iran problems? How about afghanistan? All he did was be president during an economic boom. If he gets credit for give clinton his for that economic boom.

[Dude!]

How did he resolve our iraq/iran problems? How about afghanistan? All he did was be president during an economic boom. If he gets credit for give clinton his for that economic boom.

ok, the economy boomed
during the clinton era too

[Serpico1103]

ok, the economy boomed
during the clinton era too
LIBERAL!!!!

[Dude!]

LIBERAL!!!!

no, just being honest
you should try that once

[Serpico1103]

no, just being honest
you should try that once
I can't, I am a democrat. I have to lie to weak minded republicans. Clinton, clinton, clinton!!!!!

[tanless1]

This shouldn't be done- I have a medical reformation plan that wouldn't cost the fed 100 billion - probably closer to 20 billion.
Would increase doctors in the field and rotation out of school.
And would be available to everybody - unlike this current plan of shit.
...but it doesn't involve the feds having full control - single payer dreams.

[tanless1]

...would not desimate the insurance industry, but it would certainly rein in the prices.

[tanless1]

...but with this current bunch of tripe they are pushing, our tax burden will continue to increase.all this money will go into the general fund, setting our self up for increase after increase in the name of health care..

[tanless1]

...back to work, ill come back.

[Crispy123]

This is fantastic, according to the CBO this bill will make us money and provide health care for everyone. Way to go President Obama!

[The Bends]

Hmm.Well, lets take this piece by piece

1. THIS IS ABOUT OBAMA'S POLITICAL EGO- Well, it's sure as hell what he CAMPAIGNED on. And polls then ( and now, by the way, though some Fox polls say the exact opposite) says its one of the reasons we elected him. That means a MAJORITY of the voters

2. DIRTY POLITICS TO PASS IT- You mean the Un-American , obviously Nazi , "reconciliation? Yeah, its what the Republicans used oh so many times when BUSH was in office(like passing his tax cuts 50-50, with Cheney breaking the tie) ."Deem to pass" ? Republicans used it over Dems 2 to 1 in the last 20 yrs. "Secret meetings " (which Ant likes to bray about ) - Only SECRET meeting the Dems had was when they wanted to go this alone, and decided against it( thus delaying this vote for another 4 months) Obama's big mistake was assuming that any Republican would WANT to be bipartisan , as opposing to getting back into power by any means .

3.OBAMA HAS "RUSHED THIS VOTE"- Yeah, Over a year to get a bill passed , really running it through.But there is a reason why he brought it up first. Because if he doesn't get it done now, it will NEVER happen .Remember when the Repubs killed the Hillary Care Bill in 93? How they promised to "get health reform the right way?" Never happened.Because both the Repubs & the Dems are pretty much bought & paid for , when it comes to several things, like health care & Banking.

4.MORE GOVERNMENT POWER OVER OUR LIVES- It's EXACTLY the same thing the Republicans said when Johnson got Medicare through .Try getting any Repub to say that about Medicare now.Medicare in the 60s was just as hard fought over, but Johnson had more skill with dealing with Congress,having basically run it for a decade.But it lost him Democratic seats( well that, & the Civil Rights Act, which as he foretold, lost him the South for generations)

I've watched all this shit, from "Death Panels " ( first proposed by a Republican) to "Obama the Socialist", to "The majority of the American people don't WANT health reform " . The Democrats should just grow some balls, pass this thing, and then CAMPAIGN on it. Jesus, the CBO just said it will SAVE money over its length .

Okay..maybe too much caffeine

"1. THIS IS ABOUT OBAMA'S POLITICAL EGO- Well, it's sure as hell what he CAMPAIGNED on. And polls then ( and now, by the way, though some Fox polls say the exact opposite) says its one of the reasons we elected him. That means a MAJORITY of the voters"

No, Obama was voted in because he wasn't a Republican, plain and simple.....Obama pushed for health care reform, not this current plan, which Obama doesn't totally understand himself....

"2. DIRTY POLITICS TO PASS IT- You mean the Un-American , obviously Nazi , "reconciliation? Yeah, its what the Republicans used oh so many times when BUSH was in office(like passing his tax cuts 50-50, with Cheney breaking the tie) ."Deem to pass" ? Republicans used it over Dems 2 to 1 in the last 20 yrs. "Secret meetings " (which Ant likes to bray about ) - Only SECRET meeting the Dems had was when they wanted to go this alone, and decided against it( thus delaying this vote for another 4 months) Obama's big mistake was assuming that any Republican would WANT to be bipartisan , as opposing to getting back into power by any means ."

I love this rational....So because Republicans did it, it's ok.....This is the biggest bill to come across in years....it needs to be passed the right way.....especially since so many American's are against it!

And the dirty politics includes promising free stuff to politicians in order to get their vote...oh, and not allowing Republicans to be involved in the process

What happened to the change and transparency in government Obama promised?


"3.OBAMA HAS "RUSHED THIS VOTE"- Yeah, Over a year to get a bill passed , really running it through.But there is a reason why he brought it up first. Because if he doesn't get it done now, it will NEVER happen .Remember when the Repubs killed the Hillary Care Bill in 93? How they promised to "get health reform the right way?" Never happened.Because both the Repubs & the Dems are pretty much bought & paid for , when it comes to several things, like health care & Banking."

Over a year is not long enough for a bill of this magnitude.....what are you talking about! Take the time to get it right....

Another reason Obama is rushing this, since you liberals and Democrats love to talk politics without being informed, is because Obama needs the immediate tax revenue to supplant the dry well that is social security....

"4.MORE GOVERNMENT POWER OVER OUR LIVES- It's EXACTLY the same thing the Republicans said when Johnson got Medicare through .Try getting any Repub to say that about Medicare now.Medicare in the 60s was just as hard fought over, but Johnson had more skill with dealing with Congress,having basically run it for a decade.But it lost him Democratic seats( well that, & the Civil Rights Act, which as he foretold, lost him the South for generations)"

I forgot how much liberals love to have government in their lives......so this one is my fault, sorry...I should have taken your feelings into consideration!

"Okay..maybe too much caffeine"

Na, it isn't the caffine...it's the uninformed, brainwashed liberal in you who loves the government being in charge of every aspect of your life....

[SonOfSmeagol]

This is fantastic, according to the CBO this bill will make us money and provide health care for everyone. Way to go President Obama!

The closest the gov't ever comes to "making money" is when they print bills.

[epo]

This shouldn't be done- I have a medical reformation plan that wouldn't cost the fed 100 billion - probably closer to 20 billion.
Would increase doctors in the field and rotation out of school.
And would be available to everybody - unlike this current plan of shit.
...but it doesn't involve the feds having full control - single payer dreams.

...would not desimate the insurance industry, but it would certainly rein in the prices.

...but with this current bunch of tripe they are pushing, our tax burden will continue to increase.all this money will go into the general fund, setting our self up for increase after increase in the name of health care..

I love the fact that after a YEAR of delaying tactics now the republicans have "ideas" to "start over".

Hypocrites.

[Crispy123]

The closest the gov't ever comes to "making money" is when they print bills.

I see what you did there, ha thats funny.


Except your forgetting when Clinton was president.

Hopefully President Obama can follow in his footsteps.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I see what you did there, ha thats funny.


Except your forgetting when Clinton was president.

Hopefully President Obama can follow in his footsteps.

If you're referring to budget surplus, then that means that the gov't taxed more than they spent. I don't think of that as making money.

And, if we consider your definition, just for a moment, then bho is well on his way to becoming the president to "lose" more money than any president in history.

[epo]

If you're referring to budget surplus, then that means that the gov't taxed more than they spent. I don't think of that as making money.

And, if we consider your definition, just for a moment, then bho is well on his way to becoming the president to "lose" more money than any president in history.

Certainly, they were taxing more than they were spending...because they had Bush I and Reagan's unpaid bills to take care of. And by staying on such a path, we would have long-term tax relief...but alas we elected a cheerleader.

[Pitdoc]

[B]"


Na, it isn't the caffine...it's the uninformed, brainwashed liberal in you who loves the government being in charge of every aspect of your life....


Hmm ..uninformed Liberal

Well, I AM a liberal ,and I'm not scared by you calling me that. Conservatives have given that word a stink ,but only to the great unwashed .What did Liberals give us, but The New Deal , the Great Frontier , oh, and the only time in the last 30 yrs we actually paid down the deficit (The deficit your great "conservatives" Ronnie or Georgie ran up ) .

Brainwashed? No , don't think so..Obama has fucked up quite a bit, by letting the Congress drag their feet. And ALMOST just as many Democrats as Republicans are bought & paid for by special interests in Washington (It's why a single-payer health insurance never had a chance at bringing down more costs ) .And while the CBO says this will save money in the long run, I know it wont.But it sure as hell will keep health care from getting MORE expensive.

Uninformed? Well, as a doctor, I think I know what does & doesn't suck about my JOB. Yes, weird as it might sound to a majority of this thread , I actually CARE about what happens to other people. I've SEEN a man walk out of my ED , refusing to be admitted , after he had a STROKE, because he couldn't afford admission to a hospital. I assume you're one of those "Fuck you Jack, I'm alright " - kinda guys, but when it affects YOU , or someone near you , you'll be screaming like all the rest

[Crispy123]

If you're referring to budget surplus, then that means that the gov't taxed more than they spent. I don't think of that as making money.

And, if we consider your definition, just for a moment, then bho is well on his way to becoming the president to "lose" more money than any president in history.

to lose money wouldn't you have to go from a surplus to a negative?

[Bob Impact]

Hmm ..uninformed Liberal

Well, I AM a liberal ,and I'm not scared by you calling me that. Conservatives have given that word a stink ,but only to the great unwashed .What did Liberals give us, but The New Deal , the Great Frontier , oh, and the only time in the last 30 yrs we actually paid down the deficit (The deficit your great "conservatives" Ronnie or Georgie ran up ) .

1. Be president during the dot com boom.
2. Pay down public debt (not national debt) out of Social Security and high interest bonds.
3. Get blown by a fat girl.
4. Win.





















I actually really liked Clinton.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Certainly, they were taxing more than they were spending...because they had Bush I and Reagan's unpaid bills to take care of. And by staying on such a path, we would have long-term tax relief...but alas we elected a cheerleader.

Maybe we should have elected an accountant this time.

not to be too repetitive...but...The total debt will amount to more than 100 percent of the national economy as early as 2012. (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000576-503544.html)

He inherited budget problems, yes, but on his watch he will almost certainly make them orders of magnitude worse.

[SonOfSmeagol]

to lose money wouldn't you have to go from a surplus to a negative?

I mean no big disrespect, but I don't think you're getting it. On more than one level.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Sure we will all make money on this. Just like the TARP Bailouts GM and Chryler bailouts. Please let me know when your dividend check comes in the mail

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Maybe we should have elected an accountant this time.

not to be too repetitive...but...The total debt will amount to more than 100 percent of the national economy as early as 2012. (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000576-503544.html)

He inherited budget problems, yes, but on his watch he will almost certainly make them orders of magnitude worse.

Instead of being like the Euro's we can be like the Japanese their debt is 125%

[underdog]

Instead of being like the Euro's we can be like the Japanese their debt is 125%

I wish you'd commit harakiri like the Japanese.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I wish you'd commit harakiri like the Japanese.

And i wish you get raped by an illegal alien with AIDS

[underdog]

And i wish you get raped by an illegal alien with AIDS

What would our baby be called?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What would our baby be called?

Call him El Bastardo los Kabuki

[Crispy123]

I mean no big disrespect, but I don't think you're getting it. On more than one level.

Oh I get it. And no you can't disrespect me.

[SonOfSmeagol]

What would our baby be called?

It would definitely be of two minds.

http://www.photoshoppix.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/normal_two_headed_chimp3.jpg

:innocent:

[Pitdoc]

1. Be president during the dot com boom.
2. Pay down public debt (not national debt) out of Social Security and high interest bonds.
3. Get blown by a fat girl.
4. Win.

I actually really liked Clinton.

You forgot start the Banking deregulations ( with the Repubs) that put us in the shitter for the past 2 yrs. Yes , us liberals think Democratic administrations screw up too . Hopefully Dodd can get some of those regulations back.

[tanless1]

I love the fact that after a YEAR of delaying tactics now the republicans have "ideas" to "start over".

Hypocrites.

You know me better than that epo, and I expect better from you.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I love the fact that after a YEAR of delaying tactics now the republicans have "ideas" to "start over".

Hypocrites.

What’s hypocritical? And, the reps have been consistent in their opposition and have offered the same basic alternatives since the beginning. The Dems are the ones that have been unable, so far, to pass it for over a year even with a super majority for most of the time. They have been arguing among themselves and that is the reason it has taken so long. Your statement really makes no sense.

[Syd]

Their ideas generally center around making coverage cheaper by allowing insurers to sell coverage that really covers very little.

[tanless1]

...and that is not incorrect, but it is only a small part of my plan.
...in my plan the doctors will be produced from the township level through scholarship repayment programs...this is constitutional.
...the feds could help by providing a pharacutical bulk purchase program, making these now inexpensive meds available to countys for distribution.....also constitutional.
...the feds could also help by protecting the benefactors of these clinics from malpractice suits, and also recognizing the large donations as tax deductible.....also constitional.
...this plan puts the power at the community level.
...it is not a route to single payer.
...it gives the fed zero say in you medical situation.
... the fed will also be unable to misapropriate your funds as easily.
...it produces more doctors that will be able to transition in to private pracitice.
... it will also reduce insurance costs as the costs of the uninsured will not be rolled into the price of the insured.

[tanless1]

This plan would be very inexpensive at the federal level, and very managable at the action level.
....and I believe citizens and industry would be thrilled to participate, the customer relation/goodwill would be phenominal.

[tanless1]

I can't think of any one politician that would need to be bought off for this to pass either.

The doctor would be paid a straight wage (40k per year tax free) for the six year period to fullfill his scholarship commitment.
A house would be provided w/ utilities included.
...the house could be obtained by the city through available forclosurs .

[tanless1]

But I really don't think they are interested in helping people.

[keithy_19]

Their ideas generally center around making coverage cheaper by allowing insurers to sell coverage that really covers very little.

Why not let insurers sell across state lines so prices become more competitive?

That won't solve everything but it's a start.

[Syd]

Why not let insurers sell across state lines so prices become more competitive?

That won't solve everything but it's a start.

That prevents states from setting up standards and lowers the level of healthcare. Companies will hole up in states that have lax medical coverage requirements and sell health plans that are no better than Earl Scheib paintjobs.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What a fucking fraud and a self righteous cunt Pelosi is. Now she portrays the old Catholic grandmother. FUCK YOU PELOSI!!!

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/03/19/pelosi_prays_to_st_joseph_to_pass_health_care.html

[SonOfSmeagol]

What a fucking fraud and a self righteous cunt Pelosi is. Now she portrays the old Catholic grandmother. FUCK YOU PELOSI!!!

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/03/19/pelosi_prays_to_st_joseph_to_pass_health_care.html

Yep. When's the last time anyone heard about her "devoutness". With this she confirms that her personal "faith" is just another item in her political toolkit. It's almost like she relishes being a parody of herself. Not only that, but had a Rep offered up such a prayer...look out.

[The Bends]

Uninformed? Well, as a doctor, I think I know what does & doesn't suck about my JOB. Yes, weird as it might sound to a majority of this thread , I actually CARE about what happens to other people. I've SEEN a man walk out of my ED , refusing to be admitted , after he had a STROKE, because he couldn't afford admission to a hospital. I assume you're one of those "Fuck you Jack, I'm alright " - kinda guys, but when it affects YOU , or someone near you , you'll be screaming like all the rest Another typical liberal talking point.....Paint everyone who doesn't support what they believe in, as the bad guy, or as someone who doesn't care....

I know a guy who was denied a loan for a house....he has shitty credit, a bad job, and 3 kids....he has to live in a small, 2-bedroom apartment.......So let's start giving away free homes to everyone,starting with this guy I know...it's his right!

Our current health care plan needs some tweaking, but not a major overhaul.....People should have to be accountable for their own health.....And please, stop acting as if, if you have no insurance in this country, you are kicked to the curb...

No person in this country is refused treatment to a hospital if they have an emergency.....Their are plenty of medical aid programs for the poor in this country.....Their are also plenty of chartable programs for people who can't afford treatment they've recieved...

A friend of mine was recently jumped outside of a bar.....he had no insurance, and was unemployed....During the fight he suffered a fracture in his skull, some bleeding on his brain, and a concussion.....He needed a ton of tests, had to stay over night in a great hospital for 3 days, and needs to go to memory rehab since the accident.....Now he was treated at one of the bet hospitals in the country....even though he had no health care....his bills, which are reaching the $100,000 mark, are being taken care of by the state....at no time has he had a bit of trouble, or been neglected one bit.....all the while he had no health care.........

Just like there is for people who can't afford to pay for college, there are a ton of avenues to go in looking to pay for your health care, when you can't afford it....

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Where are all these people dying in the streets like the sob stories we hear all time? Fucking illegal aliens get gold plated healthcare and dont pay a fucking dime. They use the ER as their fucking medicine cabinet from having the sniffles to having another jackpot babies. These hack politicians are using political theatre

With all these programs in hand already another trillion dollars will make things WORSE!!!!

Why can't anyone be honest who is pro Obamacare and say what they really want is single payer? This is a stepping stone to that. Thats BHO's and many democrats wet dream

[hanso]

No, you choose to comment about one aspect of my Obama comments.....

Read more....follow politics if you want to talk about them.....Obama promised an open, up and down vote on healthcare....which, like so many other things, he's already backed out of.

The up and down vote is just days away.
With bipartisanship on only one recent bill passed. in over a year.
Its high time for rec-skull fucking-conciliation on health care.

[epo]

Its nice to know that the south can't tell the difference between Health Care & the Civil War.

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[foodcourtdruide]

Instead of being like the Euro's we can be like the Japanese their debt is 125%

Japanese health care system is amazing. Unless you're rich, you'd be much better off sick in Japan than sick in the U.S.

[keithy_19]

Japanese health care system is amazing. Unless you're rich, you'd be much better off sick in Japan than sick in the U.S.

http://www.tokyofoundation.org/en/articles/2009/addressing-the-problems-in-the-japanese-healthcare-system

[angrymissy]

http://www.tokyofoundation.org/en/articles/2009/addressing-the-problems-in-the-japanese-healthcare-system

You googled "problems with japanese health care" and just linked the first result after wiki. Did you read it?

There are problems in EVERY system - fact remains that the Japanese are consistently ranked the healthiest people on this planet, and their system is ranked one of the best.

[keithy_19]

You googled "problems with japanese health care" and just linked the first result after wiki. Did you read it?

There are problems in EVERY system - fact remains that the Japanese are consistently ranked the healthiest people on this planet, and their system is ranked one of the best.

I did read it.

And yes, there are problems with every healthcare system. The article does a good job of explaning the benefits of their system and ways they can improve it.

Here's an article praising it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/06/AR2009090601630.html

[Dude!]

- fact remains that the Japanese are consistently ranked the healthiest people on this planet

that is 90% because of
their low-fat, healthy diet

eat only fish, rice and veggies
and you'd be healthy too

[hanso]

Where are all these people dying in the streets like the sob stories we hear all time? Fucking illegal aliens get gold plated healthcare and dont pay a fucking dime. They use the ER as their fucking medicine cabinet from having the sniffles to having another jackpot babies. These hack politicians are using political theatre

With all these programs in hand already another trillion dollars will make things WORSE!!!!

Why can't anyone be honest who is pro Obamacare and say what they really want is single payer? This is a stepping stone to that. Thats BHO's and many democrats wet dream


And what has the right done about it up till now? The stories are real. More people die each day over this than the number of our fallen in the Iraq war.
I can tell you what the rights reaction to this is "Stay the course" .
Sound familiar?

[Pitdoc]

Another typical liberal talking point.....Paint everyone who doesn't support what they believe in, as the bad guy, or as someone who doesn't care....

I know a guy who was denied a loan for a house....he has shitty credit, a bad job, and 3 kids....he has to live in a small, 2-bedroom apartment.......So let's start giving away free homes to everyone,starting with this guy I know...it's his right!

Our current health care plan needs some tweaking, but not a major overhaul.....People should have to be accountable for their own health.....And please, stop acting as if, if you have no insurance in this country, you are kicked to the curb...

No person in this country is refused treatment to a hospital if they have an emergency.....Their are plenty of medical aid programs for the poor in this country.....Their are also plenty of chartable programs for people who can't afford treatment they've recieved...

A friend of mine was recently jumped outside of a bar.....he had no insurance, and was unemployed....During the fight he suffered a fracture in his skull, some bleeding on his brain, and a concussion.....He needed a ton of tests, had to stay over night in a great hospital for 3 days, and needs to go to memory rehab since the accident.....Now he was treated at one of the bet hospitals in the country....even though he had no health care....his bills, which are reaching the $100,000 mark, are being taken care of by the state....at no time has he had a bit of trouble, or been neglected one bit.....all the while he had no health care.........

Just like there is for people who can't afford to pay for college, there are a ton of avenues to go in looking to pay for your health care, when you can't afford it....

I'm NOT painting you as the bad guy because I disagree with you , but your other points point out exactly why we need changes .
I TOTALLY agree with you on housing. The relaxed or erased regulations enacted in the late 90s by Clinton & a Republican Congress were what allowed shifty banks to OFFER those damn home loans to people who they would have NEVER loaned to before.
But your point about your friend is part of the problem . You're right; your friend shouldn't be given a house because he simply wants one. In the next paragraph you go on to say how he racked up 100K in bills , at no charge to him. You think those "tons of avenues" ,or "charitable organizations" pick up most of the costs? No . The hospital EAT those costs, or more likely , pass those LOSSES on to people who CAN pay( Ever wonder why an aspirin in a hospital costs 5 bucks? Bills like that ) HIS bills became YOUR bills. But then , I work in an ED , where care ,no matter WHAT a person can pay , is MANDATED by every state. Why should a person go to a clinic that has a minimal cover charge of $20 , when you can go to the ED for free? Its what I got all the time when I worked in Jamaica Queens. Whats worse, the administration of my hospital LIKED it that way, because they could bill Medicaid or the state ( meaning, you, Joe Taxpayer) a $300 bill instead of a 20 buck one. If everyone has at least some tenuous mandated insurance ( and $699 a year is not ball-breaking) a lot of those policies couldn't happen .

[Pitdoc]

No, you choose to comment about one aspect of my Obama comments.....

Read more....follow politics if you want to talk about them.....Obama promised an open, up and down vote on healthcare....which, like so many other things, he's already backed out of.

Well, isn't an up or down vote on healthcare a majority? so if a majority of Senators ( 51, who were ALL democratically elected, not instilled by the radical socialist Muslim Obama ) vote for it , then can we assume that democracy and the country will survive, and go on to worrying if Tiger has his game back or not?

[Ogre]

I'm NOT painting you as the bad guy because I disagree with you , but your other points point out exactly why we need changes .
I TOTALLY agree with you on housing. The relaxed or erased regulations enacted in the late 90s by Clinton & a Republican Congress were what allowed shifty banks to OFFER those damn home loans to people who they would have NEVER loaned to before.
But your point about your friend is part of the problem . You're right; your friend shouldn't be given a house because he simply wants one. In the next paragraph you go on to say how he racked up 100K in bills , at no charge to him. You think those "tons of avenues" ,or "charitable organizations" pick up most of the costs? No . The hospital EAT those costs, or more likely , pass those LOSSES on to people who CAN pay( Ever wonder why an aspirin in a hospital costs 5 bucks? Bills like that ) HIS bills became YOUR bills. But then , I work in an ED , where care ,no matter WHAT a person can pay , is MANDATED by every state. Why should a person go to a clinic that has a minimal cover charge of $20 , when you can go to the ED for free? Its what I got all the time when I worked in Jamaica Queens. Whats worse, the administration of my hospital LIKED it that way, because they could bill Medicaid or the state ( meaning, you, Joe Taxpayer) a $300 bill instead of a 20 buck one. If everyone has at least some tenuous mandated insurance ( and $699 a year is not ball-breaking) a lot of those policies couldn't happen .

That's one of the core problems with today's medical system. Costs associated with unnecessary billing and over billing for services. I just don't agree with the fact that we have to create a new bureaucracy to combat fraud and abuses in things such as billing either the state Medicaid or Medicare. That can be done without the rest of this Garbage Bill. I will believe that there is a real "Fraud Squad" when I see one.

Oh yeah and the gimmick of the Cadillac Plan Tax being implemented in 2018? Give me a break, that shit will never happen. Then you have even more class separation and inequality.

That's one of the great Liberal Lies, they tell you they desire equality for all, all the while separating us and defining us and then pitting us against one another.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

And what has the right done about it up till now? The stories are real. More people die each day over this than the number of our fallen in the Iraq war.
I can tell you what the rights reaction to this is "Stay the course" .
Sound familiar?

They did offer their solutions but the Democrats shunned them and said let big daddy gov't solve everything

There are about 1/3 of Doctors who would quit the field of this bill gets passed. Then what?


Be prepared for rationing. Adding 30mm moree people will lead to that.


BHO will be creating 16,000 more jobs. AT THE FUCKING IRS!! I cant believe that there are so many people whoring out their liberties for a 2700 page piece of shit that will cost more than 940 billion. Try like at least 2 trillion

[Kublakhan61]

BHO will be creating 16,000 more jobs. AT THE FUCKING IRS!! I cant believe that there are so many people whoring out their liberties for a 2700 page piece of shit that will cost more than 940 billion. Try like at least 2 trillion

Do you know how much money reform will save over time?

Do you know how much reform will save the consumer?

Do you how great the benefit will be to the small business owner, who currently pays out more for the same benefits package a large business owner does?

Do you realize growth in Health IT implementation/utilization will generate more jobs?

Currently the U.S. spends a greater percentage of their GDP then all industrialized nations? Some of which have far more efficient systems, and some covering all citizens.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Do you know how much money reform will save over time?

Do you know how much reform will save the consumer?

Do you how great the benefit will be to the small business owner, who currently pays out more for the same benefits package a large business owner does?

Do you realize growth in Health IT implementation/utilization will generate more jobs?

Currently the U.S. spends a greater percentage of their GDP then all industrialized nations? Some of which have far more efficient systems, and some covering all citizens.

Anything DC tries to reform turns into a financial shit storm. Do you realize that costs will go up? Everytime the government tries to artifically set price controls costs always skyrocket

When all these doctors leave best of luck waiting 6 months to see a doctor. Just because "everyone is covered" doesnt mean the quality is good.

This bill is a jobs killer. The chamber of commerece and almost every other business group is against this bill. But what do BHO, Pelosi and Reid know about small business?

[Kublakhan61]

Anything DC tries to reform turns into a financial shit storm. Do you realize that costs will go up? Everytime the government tries to artifically set price controls costs always skyrocket

Costs have risen dramatically over the past 30 years. The per capita cost of insurance has increased to 7X what it was in 1980. 'Of course', you're thinking, 'health care costs are subject to inflation' - Well, in the past 30 years Germany, Canada, UK, Australia, and Switzerland have only seen health care cost rise to 3X what they were in 1980.

Reform will slow the growth of health care costs and that will be seen by the consumer. If the cost of care continues to rise at the rate it has, just assuming that 30 years worth of data is indicative of future performance, the cost to you, or your boss, will double in the next 10 years.

Costs are already skyrocketing.


When all these doctors leave best of luck waiting 6 months to see a doctor. Just because "everyone is covered" doesnt mean the quality is good.

I will believe it when I see it. I doubt 1/3 of doctors will leave their life's work behind them because of reform.

Further, to the claim that adding 30 million people to the system will mean never seeing a doctor at a moments notice ... one of the reasons the system is clogged now is because too many people don't have access to preventative care. Once we're all used to seeing our doc 2X a year and getting a clean bill of health there will be less of a desire to rush to the ER everytime something goes wrong. Preventative care provides us with peace of mind. Eventually we will all be calling on the Dr only when we need them. The system will correct itself in this case.

This bill is a jobs killer. The chamber of commerece and almost every other business group is against this bill. But what do BHO, Pelosi and Reid know about small business?

I told you above that the current system is more costly to the small business owner then to the large business owner. The current system does not take care of the small business. The new system would cut them some slack. Your response is 'what do dems know about small business?' ... well, they know that they're in need of relief and they wrote that relief into the bill. What more do they need to know? What about the bill in unsatisfactory to you in regards to small business owners?

[hanso]

They did offer their solutions

That was after the fact. They did nothing. They get nothing.They loose. Good day sir's.




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[Serpico1103]

I heard at the gym that immigrants are behind the reform bill. Once 1/3, I heard 1/2, the doctors quit, we will have to turn to foreign doctors to fill the gap. They are willing to do the work our doctors are not.

[Kublakhan61]

I heard at the gym that immigrants are behind the reform bill. Once 1/3, I heard 1/2, the doctors quit, we will have to turn to foreign doctors to fill the gap. They are willing to do the work our doctors are not.

I can't argue with that. This is all true.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I heard at the gym that immigrants are behind the reform bill. Once 1/3, I heard 1/2, the doctors quit, we will have to turn to foreign doctors to fill the gap. They are willing to do the work our doctors are not.

Maybe you can go to a dishwasher or landscaper for a checkup. Hell since they cant read or write Id love to see what kind of prescroptions they can fill out for you


The illegal alien women can be the OB/GYNs, since they have the market cornered of pumping out babies they are the experts.


Many of the men can AA Counselors since they consume alcohol thinking Prohibition is coming back. The communication factor might be difficult since they no speaka English

[Serpico1103]

Maybe you can go to a dishwasher or landscaper for a checkup. Hell since they cant read or write Id love to see what kind of prescroptions they can fill out for you


The illegal alien women can be the OB/GYNs, since they have the market cornered of pumping out babies they are the experts.


Many of the men can AA Counselors since they consume alcohol thinking Prohibition is coming back. The communication factor might be difficult since they no speaka English
The future looks great.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The future looks great.

You mean the future looks mucho Magnifico!!!!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Spend trillions of dollars to possibly save 130 billion? The CBO's numbers are estimates and includes double counting KILL THIS FUCKING BILL!!!!

[tanless1]

So , none of you are interested in a real plan. One that covers anyone that needs it and infringes on no ones liberties?

So, why why why....are you more invested in winning, than what is right?

The irs has their feelers out for shotguns as does the board of education.

...the irs will be perusing your records MONTHLY to make sure you are carrying.

its still us against them w/ a heap of snark.

I feel sorry for a lot of you, as its realy not your fault.you've been told all your life that you are owed this or that its a right.

Ask yourself, what skill do you possess that you should be forced to preform for other people and not be compensated for, fully.

If you choose to do it for less , that is kindness. If you are compelled by another agent....that is somthing else.

[Recyclerz]

So , none of you are interested in a real plan. One that covers anyone that needs it and infringes on no ones liberties?

So, why why why....are you more invested in winning, than what is right?

The irs has their feelers out for shotguns as does the board of education.

...the irs will be perusing your records MONTHLY to make sure you are carrying.

its still us against them w/ a heap of snark.

I feel sorry for a lot of you, as its realy not your fault.you've been told all your life that you are owed this or that its a right.

Ask yourself, what skill do you possess that you should be forced to preform for other people and not be compensated for, fully.

If you choose to do it for less , that is kindness. If you are compelled by another agent....that is somthing else.

I support this plan because it is a first step to bring some economic rationality to the provision of health care to this country and, in my belief, a necessary first step to bringing down the rate of increase in healthcare spending that will definitely bankrupt us, both publicly and privately. If, as an apparently necessary political prerequisite, the current employer - subsidized purchase of health care insurance couldn't be fucked with, then this admittedly complicated fix around the edges seems to me to be a reasonable path of action to try. We are currently rationing care to those people who are unlucky enough to have jobs that don't provide insurance subsidies - there is no rational economic theory that thinks this makes sense.

Obama's plan, despite the rhetoric from the opponents of the bill, is not a government takeover of the health care system - frankly, that is a silly argument. The only liberty that this plan takes from anybody is that if you choose to refuse to buy insurance from the new exchanges you'll lose your right not to pay a relatively small tax to cover the risk to society that you'll someday show up at an ER with no way to pay for the care you'll receive.

The "plans" that the Republicans say they are offering as an alternative to "fix" the system (medical tort reform, buying insurance across state lines) wouldn't do shit. The idea from the Right that could have made an interesting debate would be to provide everybody with catastrophic policies (which would cover your out of pocket expenses over $5 or 10 thousand/year) and then have everyone either save into an HSA or buy a private insurance plan to cover normal types of medical services up to the catastrophic deductible. This is an idea that can't be easily dismissed as doing nothing, actually has some merit in fixing the current and long-term cost problems and the public could have had a clearer choice as to what their preferences might be as a solution. Had the Republicans pushed this we might be having a more reasonable debate. Maybe we can have that debate in the future.

[Kublakhan61]

So , none of you are interested in a real plan. One that covers anyone that needs it and infringes on no ones liberties?



You are the one to feel sorry for. Do you sincerely believe that we can get to 'one all encompassing plan' in fell-swoop? Not in this country, not the way our political system is divided and at odds with one another.

The reason to support this plan is that it is a step forward. It will help to launch several pilot programs across the US that will be cost efficient experiments in the Medical Home model, in payment reform and its impact on care, in the value of preventative care. Change doesn't happen overnight. Sometimes you have to convince those who do not believe with tested results.

This reform will allow us to gain that data. In another 15-20 years the health care system could be totally revolutionized. But to say I accept all or nothing will only cost us more in the long run.

I am posting an article here that explains the health care plans put forth by Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton. The article shows that by stopping reform in the past we have only hurt the health care system. That any reform will be a great benefit to us all.

I hope you read it and discover that inaction is a poorer option here.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Blog/The-Costs-of-Failure.aspx



PS - Wrestlingfan, I noticed you didn't respond to anything I said to you... I was looking forward to your thoughts on my last post.

[Bob Impact]

You are the one to feel sorry for. Do you sincerely believe that we can get to 'one all encompassing plan' in fell-swoop? Not in this country, not the way our political system is divided and at odds with one another.

The reason to support this plan is that it is a step forward. It will help to launch several pilot programs across the US that will be cost efficient experiments in the Medical Home model, in payment reform and its impact on care, in the value of preventative care. Change doesn't happen overnight. Sometimes you have to convince those who do not believe with tested results.

This reform will allow us to gain that data. In another 15-20 years the health care system could be totally revolutionized. But to say I accept all or nothing will only cost us more in the long run.

I am posting an article here that explains the health care plans put forth by Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton. The article shows that by stopping reform in the past we have only hurt the health care system. That any reform will be a great benefit to us all.

I hope you read it and discover that inaction is a poorer option here.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Blog/The-Costs-of-Failure.aspx



PS - Wrestlingfan, I noticed you didn't respond to anything I said to you... I was looking forward to your thoughts on my last post.
I'm glad to see that you decided linking to a fund with a stated objective of universal healthcare is a fair look at this issue.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I support this plan because it is a first step to bring some economic rationality to the provision of health care to this country and, in my belief, a necessary first step to bringing down the rate of increase in healthcare spending that will definitely bankrupt us, both publicly and privately. If, as an apparently necessary political prerequisite, the current employer - subsidized purchase of health care insurance couldn't be fucked with, then this admittedly complicated fix around the edges seems to me to be a reasonable path of action to try. We are currently rationing care to those people who are unlucky enough to have jobs that don't provide insurance subsidies - there is no rational economic theory that thinks this makes sense.

Obama's plan, despite the rhetoric from the opponents of the bill, is not a government takeover of the health care system - frankly, that is a silly argument. The only liberty that this plan takes from anybody is that if you choose to refuse to buy insurance from the new exchanges you'll lose your right not to pay a relatively small tax to cover the risk to society that you'll someday show up at an ER with no way to pay for the care you'll receive.

The "plans" that the Republicans say they are offering as an alternative to "fix" the system (medical tort reform, buying insurance across state lines) wouldn't do shit. The idea from the Right that could have made an interesting debate would be to provide everybody with catastrophic policies (which would cover your out of pocket expenses over $5 or 10 thousand/year) and then have everyone either save into an HSA or buy a private insurance plan to cover normal types of medical services up to the catastrophic deductible. This is an idea that can't be easily dismissed as doing nothing, actually has some merit in fixing the current and long-term cost problems and the public could have had a clearer choice as to what their preferences might be as a solution. Had the Republicans pushed this we might be having a more reasonable debate. Maybe we can have that debate in the future.

What reasonable person could think that a near $1,000,000,000,000 plan is a “first step”? Moreover, can you clearly articulate the “next step(s)” the majority has in mind? This bill is IT. As far as bringing down the costs, the only persons who will see that to any significant extent are the poor and the uninsured, who will be funded by increased taxes to others and “cuts”/”savings” in benefits to others. There is little evidence otherwise.

That was in response to your first sentence. I’m tired.

[SonOfSmeagol]

...then can we assume that democracy and the country will survive, and go on to worrying if Tiger has his game back or not?

Yes, yes it will survive. And from time to time the majority in our gov’t will take a shot at going against the will of the people, as is their right. But if you think we will just forget and move on to topics such as Tiger (yech), you are very much mistaken. It is the people’s right to continue to fight against bad legislation, all out, including making corrections to the majority in the form of the vote.

Gallup: more Americans (continue to) believe the new legislation will make things worse rather than better for the U.S. as a whole, as well as for them personally (http://www.gallup.com/poll/126812/Americans-Expect-Health-Bill-Mainly-Help-Poor-Uninsured.aspx)

[epo]

Yes, yes it will survive. And from time to time the majority in our gov’t will take a shot at going against the will of the people, as is their right. But if you think we will just forget and move on to topics such as Tiger (yech), you are very much mistaken. It is the people’s right to continue to fight against bad legislation, all out, including making corrections to the majority in the form of the vote.

Gallup: more Americans (continue to) believe the new legislation will make things worse rather than better for the U.S. as a whole, as well as for them personally (http://www.gallup.com/poll/126812/Americans-Expect-Health-Bill-Mainly-Help-Poor-Uninsured.aspx)

Those people told us!

http://memewatch.com/thelist/archives/pix/morans.jpg

[Recyclerz]

What reasonable person could think that a near $1,000,000,000,000 plan is a “first step”? Moreover, can you clearly articulate the “next step(s)” the majority has in mind? This bill is IT. As far as bringing down the costs, the only persons who will see that to any significant extent are the poor and the uninsured, who will be funded by increased taxes to others and “cuts”/”savings” in benefits to others. There is little evidence otherwise.

That was in response to your first sentence. I’m tired.

The trillion $ this will cost is going to be spent under the existing system anyway. It is a ? Of how.

[epo]

The irony is that this proposal isn't far off from what Nixon offered in 1974. So 35 years later...we've finally progressed.

Nixon's proposal here. (http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/September/03/nixon-proposal.aspx)

[Kublakhan61]

I'm glad to see that you decided linking to a fund with a stated objective of universal healthcare is a fair look at this issue.

At the very least they are an informed, bipartisan resource. As opposed to a news outlet who makes statements designed to gain clicks throughs at the cost of genuine information dissemination.

But thanks for your thoughtful contribution to the thread. Internet sniping goes a long way toward fruitful discussion...

[epo]

It looks like the Stupak block came home.

222, bitches!

[Dan 'Hampton]

The irony is that this proposal isn't far off from what Nixon offered in 1974. So 35 years later...we've finally progressed.

Nixon's proposal here. (http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/September/03/nixon-proposal.aspx)
The amazing thing is that with this and the EPA, Nixon was a rather progressive, psychotic republican. Kudos to him.

[tanless1]

There is nothing all-encompassing in my plan. However, it does not put the fedgov. Into the loop, what it does do is put the fedgov to support research and in a position to effect pharmacutical prices. By purchasing and distrubuting to the township level, would also cut the prevenitive care costs in half. Not because the govt dictated and is strongarming , but because the township has devolped a course for more inexpensive service , partailily because of more inexpensive med's( due to bulk purchase aggreements)
And by feds protecting corperations from predatory lawsuits, making it comfortable to finance the clinic through deductible donation.
One plan encourges for others to help.
The other

[Bob Impact]

At the very least they are an informed, bipartisan resource. As opposed to a news outlet who makes statements designed to gain clicks throughs at the cost of genuine information dissemination.

But thanks for your thoughtful contribution to the thread. Internet sniping goes a long way toward fruitful discussion...

An informed, bipartisan news resource that wants universal healthcare. Let's go ask major corporations about the benefits of big business and see if you feel the same.

[booster11373]

The amazing thing is that with this and the EPA, Nixon was a rather progressive, psychotic republican. Kudos to him.

In domestic affairs Nixon was incredibly "Liberal" He implemented price and wage controls in order to control inflation he had selfish reasons mainly to reinsure re-election but still price controls!

[tanless1]

...dictates under threat and penalty of law.
I ask you, which plan is more inline with the constitution ?

[Recyclerz]

The amazing thing is that with this and the EPA, Nixon was a rather progressive, psychotic republican. Kudos to him.
Wage and price controls? He was too liberal even for me!

[tanless1]

....which plan does not involve giving even more power to the irs?
...which plan would make it more simple to transition to a flat tax reducing the onuos of severe taxation ?

[tanless1]

...and lastly , which plan would make it simpler to desguise increased taxes for more projects that are not involved with health care.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Those people told us!

Once again, this is the best you can do. Post a lame recycled pic that I believe was the subject of its own thread at one point. No surprise, since similarly every time someone has tried to engage you on this and other topics in a mostly friendly manner on something you have posted you have either ignored them or done something similar.

Now I know you’re gonna gloat, cause this is your big day on this particular topic. But you gotta find some new material. I won’t be surprised if it is equally lame.

[tanless1]

I garuntee my plan would not take 2700 pages, nor require payoffs to politicians

[epo]

I garuntee my plan would not take 2700 pages, nor require payoffs to politicians

When did Idaho elect you to Congress?

[tanless1]

Epo , don't you work in politics ? What is it exactly that you do ? You seem unable to talk out of a box....and I like to think your a smart guy(snark level alone says you got somthin)

[epo]

Once again, this is the best you can do. Post a lame recycled pic that I believe was the subject of its own thread at one point. No surprise, since similarly every time someone has tried to engage you on this and other topics in a mostly friendly manner on something you have posted you have either ignored them or done something similar.

Now I know you’re gonna gloat, cause this is your big day on this particular topic. But you gotta find some new material. I won’t be surprised if it is equally lame.

I was simply making a tongue-in-cheek comment about the manner in which the "polls" have been used in this debate. Its been one of the weirdest phenomena that I've seen.

When individual components are polled, they poll at over 60-70% approval.
When the total bill is polled, it polls from 40-50% percent.

It simply doesn't make sense. (Well, except again the democrats do a horrible job of defining the debate...but really what's new about that?)

[SonOfSmeagol]

The trillion $ this will cost is going to be spent under the existing system anyway. It is a ? Of how.

I think that's a rather shallow rationale.

[tanless1]

When did Idaho elect you to Congress?

I'm certainly thinking about it, even though I know your joking.
...you do know that niether crongress nor the senate wrote this bill....so I guess anybody can write a bill.

I am considering offering my plan to a few politicians. Its a good plan, and I haven't seen much good coming out washington.

[epo]

I'm certainly thinking about it, even though I know your joking.
...you do know that niether crongress nor the senate wrote this bill....so I guess anybody can write a bill.

I am considering offering my plan to a few politicians. Its a good plan, and I haven't seen much good coming out washington.

I'll fully admit that I like some of your ideas. What really has frustrated me about this debate is that the republicans tried to use health care as a "Waterloo for Obama", instead of trying to strengten the ideas with creative ideas such as some of yours.

[tanless1]

.

[tanless1]

I can appreciate you thoughts on waterloo.
I'm not sure who said them first, and it didn't help anything...and those comments did pitch us in a us against them battle, where limitedprogress could be achieved.

[tanless1]

...I deleted the comment as you answerd my question before I asked it. Thnx, I appreciate that.

[epo]

....do you think its a good plan epo?

I think much like the first go of Social Security or Medicare, its a really good start. Obviously things will be tweaked over time, which is the very definition of the process.

[epo]

I can appreciate you thoughts on waterloo.
I'm not sure who said them first, and it didn't help anything...and those comments did pitch us in a us against them battle, where limitedprogress could be achieved.

Senator Jim DeMint, South Carolina

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[tanless1]

My pop's worked to get a bill passed once, even made the floor of california.
We can do it , we can change, we can grow,,. Once we give this power away, I fear impossibility to rid ourselves of it.

If this doesn't pass, and the repubs attempt to pass somthing to help when/if the regain power.....I fear that it will be framed as another partician ( no single payer/no pass)

When I listen to progressive radio, there seems to be more interest in the 10 pillars of communism than in solutions. Is it entertainment, or is it mission.
We may be the best country, I don't think we'd survive that path.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I was simply making a tongue-in-cheek comment about the manner in which the "polls" have been used in this debate. Its been one of the weirdest phenomena that I've seen.

When individual components are polled, they poll at over 60-70% approval.
When the total bill is polled, it polls from 40-50% percent.

It simply doesn't make sense. (Well, except again the democrats do a horrible job of defining the debate...but really what's new about that?)

As for “polls” I used Gallup, which I think is generally accepted and has a wealth of supporting and drill-down information.

No one has ever disagreed that reform is needed, and that there can be agreement on some basic aspects. But it is the implementation (i.e., the bill) that really matters, because then the cost, terms, deals, add’l gov’t involvement, and all the other peripheral bullshit comes into play. It is completely valid for people to have problems with the substance of the actual bill. The bill is not simply the sum of the “principles” and “goals” that led to its actual make-up.

[booster11373]

I garuntee my plan would not take 2700 pages, nor require payoffs to politicians

WOW between this and your energy plan you must be the smartest person alive not just on RonFez.net

I for one would like to thank you for spending your time here instead of someplace where you could actually make a difference

Clearly you know the best forum for you ground breaking ideas.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I'll fully admit that I like some of your ideas. What really has frustrated me about this debate is that the republicans tried to use health care as a "Waterloo for Obama", instead of trying to strengten the ideas with creative ideas such as some of yours.

The last part is simply not true. They were stiffarmed repeatedly and pretty much shut out because they wouldn't come around to the majority thinking, and the majority went with the approach that they didn't need them.

[hanso]

I heard at the gym that immigrants are behind the reform bill. Once 1/3, I heard 1/2, the doctors quit, we will have to turn to foreign doctors to fill the gap. They are willing to do the work our doctors are not.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/531/drnick.png

WF's new Dr.

[tanless1]

...what's the date on that ? ....its not important the date. That's where he promises ?( on my cell phone )
Once I get settled, may run for council man...and see where it goes. Id much rather just sit on a boat and fish, smoke cigars and enjoy my people.....but somthing has got to be done.
The passion and the power, it intoxicates...they believe they are doing the lords work.
...drunk with clevernese.
They swear an oath to protect and uphold the constitution,,,,and yet that seems to be the furthest thing from there mind.
Republicans sound great right now,but they lost their way too.....
We can all help eachother, and we do. Sometimes it helps to see others do it ( produce help) to find the inspiration to do it for sombody else.
The more intrusive the fed's get....the bigger the wedge.

[hanso]

It is a down right dirty shame. That you have to go back 35 years (Nixon) to the last figure on the right. Who offered up anything of weight pertaining to heath care for the common person. This shows how many shits the right could give about commoners.

[tanless1]

I gotta split Epo, talk at you later

[epo]

The last part is simply not true. They were stiffarmed repeatedly and pretty much shut out because they wouldn't come around to the majority thinking, and the majority went with the approach that they didn't need them.

Thats where we completely disagree. The Republicans in Congress did nothing but delay and obstruct the process...adding nothing of value until the Democrats were essentially forced to say "fuck it" and go it alone.

It was then and only then that the Republicans had "magic ideas" and even those sucked.

[Kublakhan61]

An informed, bipartisan news resource that wants universal healthcare. Let's go ask major corporations about the benefits of big business and see if you feel the same.

Why make this about the source? If you'd like to add data that supports your views please do. They are also not a news outlet, they are a non-profit think tank.

Please contribute something to the chat.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Thats where we completely disagree. The Republicans in Congress did nothing but delay and obstruct the process...adding nothing of value until the Democrats were essentially forced to say "fuck it" and go it alone.

It was then and only then that the Republicans had "magic ideas" and even those sucked.

But that's just not true. The Reps never had enough power to delay and obstruct to any significance on this issue - it's because of Dem infighting that it's taken so long. The Dems adopted a take it or leave it posture long ago when they knew they had all the cards. And the Reps basic ideas have remained unchanged since the beginning.

[hanso]

This is one of the few times I will watch C-SPAN. The coverage is on now.

The red ties are going into O.T. folks.

I wish Ron and Fez had covered this. Its kinda of a hoot.

[Bob Impact]

Why make this about the source? If you'd like to add data that supports your views please do. They are also not a news outlet, they are a non-profit think tank.

Please contribute something to the chat.

I've contributed my point of view previously, just pointing out that your source isn't perfect. Settle down.

[epo]

But that's just not true. The Reps never had enough power to delay and obstruct to any significance on this issue - it's because of Dem infighting that it's taken so long. The Dems adopted a take it or leave it posture long ago when they knew they had all the cards. And the Reps basic ideas have remained unchanged since the beginning.

So the Republicans haven't obstructed at all?

McConnell strategy shuns bipartisianship (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/us/politics/17mcconnell.html?pagewanted=all)

Before the health care fight, before the economic stimulus package, before President Obama even took office, Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican minority leader, had a strategy for his party: use his extensive knowledge of Senate procedure to slow things down, take advantage of the difficulties Democrats would have in governing and deny Democrats any Republican support on big legislation.

Republicans embraced it. Democrats denounced it as rank obstructionism. Either way, it has led the two parties, as much as any other factor, to where they are right now. Republicans are monolithically against the health care legislation, leaving the president and his party executing parliamentary back flips to get it passed, conservatives revived, liberals wondering what happened.

Claiming that the Republican Party haven't slowed down Washington is a completely naive statement by anyone. Sorry, its just the freakin' truth.

[opie's twisted balls]

Dennis Kucinich who got to ride on the nice shiny AF-1 is the latest to fold like a cheap suit. Way to hold onto your convictions douche!!!
I watched that pandering little elf on Larry King the other night and it was disgusting. That fucker had held fast he wasn't going to vote yes.....Obama shows up and must have given Dennis one hell of a deep dicking to change his vote.

Would someone from Ohio please give that miniature dipshit a great big kick in the nuts for being such a douche bag!

[SonOfSmeagol]

So the Republicans haven't obstructed at all?

Claiming that the Republican Party haven't slowed down Washington is a completely naive statement by anyone. Sorry, its just the freakin' truth.

You have introduced the broader issue of “who is less bipartisan”, and both parties have clearly not done what they could’ve. But, given that the party in super power holds all the cards...

But you responded to something I didn’t say. I referred to the specific issue of hc and the power of the Reps to slow it down. What specifically have the Reps done (short of total opposition to passage of course) to “slow” the passage of the bill? It has plainly been the super majority infighting that has dragged it on and on and turned it into an obsession to the expense of other worthwhile activities the gov’t could be engaged in. The Dems have had more than enough people and the mechanisms to have passed it long ago. There’s no evidence that it’s the Reps fault that it wasn’t passed last summer or even way earlier.

[SonOfSmeagol]

IObama shows up and must have given Dennis one hell of a deep dicking to change his vote.

It was the "Air Force One" ball cap, sweater, and "lil captain" clip-on wings that turned his vote. He was wearing them at his press conference.

[booster11373]

I love it now they are saying it will kill babies!

[Bob Impact]

I love it now they are saying it will kill babies!

Don't forget about grandma, liberal bloodlust respects no age limits!

[FUNKMAN]

somebodies got to die in order for others to live. they just have to get the wording right...

my Uncle who retired approx 20 years ago gets 3600.00 a month pension and pays 0 for any healthcare he receives. he is on dialysis, 3x's a week at about 30k a month. in one month he has taken out of the system more than he ever paid in. it's not hard arithmetic, even for a high school "made it by the skin of my ass for lack of effort" education!

all my Uncle knows is he wants ABSOLUTELY nothing to affect his level of healthcare

so what is the ANSWER?

there are people who worked just as hard as he did for 30 something years and have no healthcare...

ANSWER IS - there is no perfect answer. so don't judge someone who has addressed as best in his ability and within a system beyond almost all of his control to make some small type of improvement or to provide something to people who have been "left out" due to no fault of their own

people are expendable. sometimes it just takes longer to expend them

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You are the one to feel sorry for. Do you sincerely believe that we can get to 'one all encompassing plan' in fell-swoop? Not in this country, not the way our political system is divided and at odds with one another.

The reason to support this plan is that it is a step forward. It will help to launch several pilot programs across the US that will be cost efficient experiments in the Medical Home model, in payment reform and its impact on care, in the value of preventative care. Change doesn't happen overnight. Sometimes you have to convince those who do not believe with tested results.

This reform will allow us to gain that data. In another 15-20 years the health care system could be totally revolutionized. But to say I accept all or nothing will only cost us more in the long run.

I am posting an article here that explains the health care plans put forth by Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton. The article shows that by stopping reform in the past we have only hurt the health care system. That any reform will be a great benefit to us all.

I hope you read it and discover that inaction is a poorer option here.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Blog/The-Costs-of-Failure.aspx



PS - Wrestlingfan, I noticed you didn't respond to anything I said to you... I was looking forward to your thoughts on my last post.

Its going to be another bloated entitlement program that will fall short just like Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid and countless other programs. Welcome to the Fannie/Freddie of healthcare. Thats my response and that will happen years down the road

As far as Stupak he allowed himself to be pimped out by Obama. An executive order is not set in stone. Watch some federal judge will deem it unconstutional. I knew Stupak could crack at the last minute.

[Bob Impact]

Its going to be another bloated entitlement program that will fall short just like Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid and countless other programs. Welcome to the Fannie/Freddie of healthcare. Thats my response and that will happen years down the road

As far as Stupak he allowed himself to be pimped out by Obama. An executive order is not set in stone. Watch some federal judge will deem it unconstutional. I knew Stupak could crack at the last minute.

I'm interested to see how quickly the suits come in and and who sues first, for the executive order and the entire bill.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I'm interested to see how quickly the suits come in and and who sues first, for the executive order and the entire bill.

I know that a number of state Atty's Gen are prepared to sue the feds over this. As far as the exec order of the abortion provision look for the 9th Circuit to be the most likely to overturn that.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You fucking Rubes who support Obama fell for it big time!!! You people thought that he would "Change" the way how a President is supposed to rule and guess what. Kickbacks galore, arm twisting, Promises of appointments , turning the water back on in the Central Valley.

Can you people at least be honest and call him for what he is? Nothing but another scumbag politician from Chicago.

[epo]

You fucking Rubes who support Obama fell for it big time!!! You people thought that he would "Change" the way how a President is supposed to rule and guess what. Kickbacks galore, arm twisting, Promises of appointments , turning the water back on in the Central Valley.

Can you people at least be honest and call him for what he is? Nothing but another scumbag politician from Chicago.

I can't wait for an illegal immigrant to run your town.

[epo]

I know that a number of state Atty's Gen are prepared to sue the feds over this. As far as the exec order of the abortion provision look for the 9th Circuit to be the most likely to overturn that.

And those Attorney Generals are politicizing the office and wasting valuable taxpayer resources.

THEY ARE CAUSING THE RISE OF YOUR LOCAL TAXES!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I can't wait for an illegal immigrant to ruin your town.



Fixed it for you

[WRESTLINGFAN]

And those Attorney Generals are politicizing the office and wasting valuable taxpayer resources.

THEY ARE CAUSING THE RISE OF YOUR LOCAL TAXES!

Blumenthal is not going to call for a lawsuit.

How Ironic would it be if states used Stimulus money to fund their lawsuits

[epo]

Blumenthal is not going to call for a lawsuit.

How Ironic would it be if states used Stimulus money to fund their lawsuits

Now that wouldn't be ironic, it would be ILLEGAL!

Learn your government, fool!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Now that wouldn't be ironic, it would be ILLEGAL!

Learn your government, fool!

Forcing people to buy a product is legal? Learn yours douche!!!!

[booster11373]

Forcing people to buy a product is legal? Learn yours douche!!!!

Are you even trying or are you just so upset tonight?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Are you even trying or are you just so upset tonight?

Dont even bring up the car insurance comparison You are not required to own a car, many think that youre entitled to one

Just swallow the government load and believe that this will be perfect

[opie's twisted balls]

It was the "Air Force One" ball cap, sweater.........
I didn't realize that AF1 paraphernalia came in children's sizes.

[underdog]

Are you even trying or are you just so upset tonight?

Dont even bring up the car insurance comparison You are not required to own a car, many think that youre entitled to one

Just swallow the government load and believe that this will be perfect

:blink:

[epo]

Dont even bring up the car insurance comparison You are not required to own a car, many think that youre entitled to one

Just swallow the government load and believe that this will be perfect

Its been used in this thread already, but its really perfect for your situation:

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[booster11373]

Are you even trying or are you just so upset tonight?

Dont even bring up the car insurance comparison You are not required to own a car, many think that youre entitled to one

Just swallow the government load and believe that this will be perfect

One of these things is not like the other but I forgive you it must be hard to type with those tears in your eyes

[Bob Impact]

Forcing people to buy a product is legal? Learn yours douche!!!!

Minus the douche part, this is actually correct, and what any suits will be based on.

[Recyclerz]

You fucking Rubes who support Obama fell for it big time!!! You people thought that he would "Change" the way how a President is supposed to rule and guess what. Kickbacks galore, arm twisting, Promises of appointments , turning the water back on in the Central Valley.

Can you people at least be honest and call him for what he is? Nothing but another scumbag politician from Chicago.

This rube is getting most of what he wants from Obama. An attempt to find bi-partisan common ground but, when that has proved virtually impossible,a willingness to use the tools that the American people have given the Democrats over the last two elections to push forward a moderately progressive agenda on domestic issues like health care reform and energy policy and a less bellicose foreign policy. But I also expect him to start laying the groundwork for an honest discussion with the American public about the need for entitlement reform and, probably, the need in the intermediate future for a value added or consumption tax. So far it seems like he's holding up his end as best as can be expected from a scumbag politician from anywhere.

The hyper-invective about Obama in general and this bill in particular might (MIGHT!) have been appropriate if Dennis Kucinich or Bernie Sanders had somehow gotten themselves in the White Houseand were pushing their wish list. If the Obama agenda is indeed as awful and harmful to the Republic as you guys are screaming, the American public will figure that out in a relatively short time. (See 2nd Term of Bush, George W.) If you really want to sell the American public on the virtues of libertarianism you better find an argument that convinces seniors and near-seniors (and the younger progeny of those folks)of the premise that Social Security is an immoral Ponzi scheme that should be phased out ASAP and should be replaced with social Darwinism.

[underdog]

One of these things is not like the other but I forgive you it must be hard to type with those tears in your eyes

I can't believe you'd bring dinosaurs into this discussion!

[Recyclerz]

Don't forget about grandma, liberal bloodlust respects no age limits!

I wish I could dispute this - but it's true. :devil2:

[Bob Impact]

This rube is getting most of what he wants from Obama. An attempt to find bi-partisan common ground but, when that has proved virtually impossible,a willingness to use the tools that the American people have given the Democrats over the last two elections to push forward a moderately progressive agenda on domestic issues like health care reform and energy policy and a less bellicose foreign policy. But I also expect him to start laying the groundwork for an honest discussion with the American public about the need for entitlement reform and, probably, the need in the intermediate future for a value added or consumption tax. So far it seems like he's holding up his end as best as can be expected from a scumbag politician from anywhere.

If he achieves anything on entitlement reform i'll be happy with him, it's been promised for 20 years now.


The hyper-invective about Obama in general and this bill in particular might (MIGHT!) have been appropriate if Dennis Kucinich or Bernie Sanders had somehow gotten themselves in the White Houseand were pushing their wish list.
I'll agree that it was out of scale but the lashback for such obvious bargin making is well deserved.

If the Obama agenda is indeed as awful and harmful to the Republic as you guys are screaming, the American public will figure that out in a relatively short time. (See 2nd Term of Bush, George W.)
If you want to be honest about how political this bill is look at the fact that the most visible incentives start before November while the bulk of benefits start years out. I don't honestly know that Obama will take as much heat for this as I think the democrats in congress will.

[epo]

Was Boehner drunk on the floor?

[badmonkey]

Was Boehner drunk on the floor?

Is Pelosi?

[Recyclerz]

No argument from me on the seediness on some of the vote buying (Nelson, Blanch Lincoln, et al.) but I suspect no country is so pure in its legislative processes as to eliminate the practice.

The bill is definitely contructed to maximize the deliverables to the voting public before this November and also undeniably massages the numbers (& the timing of the benefits) to achieve the claimed savings. This to me isn't objectionable - it just seems like political common sense.



I suspect there might be one area that liberals and libertarians might be able to work together - foreign policy. If we could dial back the appetite for foreign interventions locally and actively start warning the rest of the globe that we're not going to be the default policeman for all global kerfuffles we could start spending a more sustainable level of military spending to defend our national interests.

Or maybe just have some spirited but civil debates on here and over various beers at outings.

[epo]

The motion is carried.

Lock this fucking thread up.

[hanso]

I can't believe you'd bring dinosaurs into this discussion!

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1626/jesusridesdinosaur.gif
Jebus sayz
Hurry on down to the Dino Aborto Barn
Where the first one is always free.

[CurseoftheBambi]

so anyone checking on ant to make sure he uses his private healthy insurance to go to the hospital cause i'm pretty sure he's having a heart attack now.:devil2:

[KatPw]

so anyone checking on ant to make sure he uses his private healthy insurance to go to the hospital cause i'm pretty sure he's having a heart attack now.:devil2:

:lol:

[Dude!]

like this is some great victory
there's not even a public option

the dems really let their base down

[opie's twisted balls]

so anyone checking on ant to make sure he uses his private healthy insurance to go to the hospital cause i'm pretty sure he's having a heart attack now.:devil2:

Ant has bigger worries this weekend, his son was arrested at the local Walmart (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/289346) for saying bad things

[CurseoftheBambi]

i agree dude this isnt as great as it could have been...but...but...to have lost this would have made it far worse.

opie's...you know ant's just gonna give his son a raise in his allowance :)

[The Bends]

You gotta love the rationale of people who are pumped that the government is running so many aspects of their lives....stange

Mrs. Obama is already out there telling major food distributors to put less fattening content in their product.....Are you fucking kidding me!!!!!!

Too many Americans are against this plan, for it to stick.....

Up next......Free homes for everyone.......

Coming soon....Free cable!

[CurseoftheBambi]

how about a free can of ...never mind

[Chigworthy]

Coming soon....Free cable!

We already know from your brother Jezo that Obama denied our god-given right to watch the Olympics in its entirety on cable.

[Syd]

You gotta love the rationale of people who are pumped that the government is running so many aspects of their lives....stange

Mrs. Obama is already out there telling major food distributors to put less fattening content in their product.....Are you fucking kidding me!!!!!!

Too many Americans are against this plan, for it to stick.....

Up next......Free homes for everyone.......

Coming soon....Free cable!

The funny thing is, individually people are for every single component of the health care plan. When it is packaged together and attacked in a fashion to make it seem harmful, the easily brainwashed are shithouse crazy against it. Funny thing how effective marketing is.

[A.J.]

Blumenthal is not going to call for a lawsuit.

How Ironic would it be if states used Stimulus money to fund their lawsuits

He's too busy getting ready for a run for the Senate!

[TripleSkeet]

Ant has bigger worries this weekend, his son was arrested at the local Walmart (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/289346) for saying bad things

LMAO. Thats the Walmart I go to.

The funny thing is, theres hardly any black people in there.

Oh and the fact they arrested the kid is a fucking joke. It was offensive and he shouldve been thrown out, but it wasnt a crime.

[hanso]

You gotta love the rationale of people who are pumped that the government is running so many aspects of their lives....stange

Mrs. Obama is already out there telling major food distributors to put less fattening content in their product.....Are you fucking kidding me!!!!!!

Too many Americans are against this plan, for it to stick.....

Up next......Free homes for everyone.......

Coming soon....Free cable!

Give a common person a break? They might do something crazy. Like put money saved into the economy.

[TripleSkeet]

Too many Americans are against this plan, for it to stick.....



I wonder how many are aginst the actual plan and how many are against it because its the Democrats baby.

I swear its like watching a fucking football game anymore. Where people dont care what happens during the game, what the rules are, and how it affects the fans as long as their team wins. I never understood the people that pound their chests when their political party wins a vote or an election.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You gotta love the rationale of people who are pumped that the government is running so many aspects of their lives....stange

Mrs. Obama is already out there telling major food distributors to put less fattening content in their product.....Are you fucking kidding me!!!!!!

Too many Americans are against this plan, for it to stick.....

Up next......Free homes for everyone.......

Coming soon....Free cable!

High speed internet is a basic human right according to the progressives


Congrats Pelosi you cunt, I cant wait to see that fucking speakers gavel pryed away from those talons of yours next January

[LordJezo]

What a day to forget my gym clothes.

Hopefully people will be going as crazy tomorrow as they will be today.

[Ogre]

I wonder how many are aginst the actual plan and how many are against it because its the Democrats baby.

I swear its like watching a fucking football game anymore. Where people dont care what happens during the game, what the rules are, and how it affects the fans as long as their team wins. I never understood the people that pound their chests when their political party wins a vote or an election.

On the flip side I wonder if all the people jumping up and down and celebrating are doing so because they really know what is in this plan, or are doing so just because The Democrats were behind this.

Blind Faith = Ignorance

I hope everyone likes the idea of being a ward of the State.

on a side note

Blind Faith = A Legendary Band, why couldn't Ginger Baker stay clean?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Its the entitlement philosophy. What can I get at the expense of someone else. The most greedy people around are the people who believe that someone else should pay their way. Well congrats you rubes you got another entitlement program all financed by the taxpayer, you needy pathetic douches have just gotten an early Christmas present

[Ogre]

The Stamp Act was passed by Parliament on March 22, 1765. I guess we all know what this was the beginning of, unless they don't teach this anymore in public schools.

245 years later to the day, King Obama and Princess Pelosi impose a tax to pay for their sustained folly and power. The H.C. Bill SAVES 130 Billion or so in Natl Debt, if you believe this to be true. This would take care of the first 18 DAYS worth of debt in the Month of February 2010 under the increased spending of the Obama White House.

That's right the OBAMA Administration. You fucking clown Liberals own ALL of this now. No more Belly Aching pussy excuses about we inherited from GWB...blah blah blah....when they come with the torches and pitchforks I will point them they way to you.

[Kublakhan61]

I wonder how many are aginst the actual plan and how many are against it because its the Democrats baby.

That's what I wonder too, about the elected officials. The House of Representatives is collective of people representing the people of their state, county, locality, and so on. If this is truely a representative democracy, then we have to believe that EVERY SINGLE Republican representative was told by a majority of thier consituients 'Vote No'.

I have a hard time believing that they we all listening to their bases of support. The Dems had some guys waivering and even voting against the bill, but EVERY SINGLE republican...

C'mon. That's not policy making that just warfare.

[Bob Impact]

That's what I wonder too, about the elected officials. The House of Representatives is collective of people representing the people of their state, county, locality, and so on. If this is truely a representative democracy, then we have to believe that EVERY SINGLE Republican representative was told by a majority of thier consituients 'Vote No'.

I have a hard time believing that they we all listening to their bases of support. The Dems had some guys waivering and even voting against the bill, but EVERY SINGLE republican...

C'mon. That's not policy making that just warfare.

Third. I personally am against the entire plan as well as the individual components but it seems like much of the arguments on here and from pundits have been against democrats instead of the bill.

[Crispy123]

The Stamp Act was passed by Parliament on March 22, 1765. I guess we all know what this was the beginning of, unless they don't teach this anymore in public schools.

245 years later to the day, King Obama and Princess Pelosi impose a tax to pay for their sustained folly and power. The H.C. Bill SAVES 130 Billion or so in Natl Debt, if you believe this to be true. This would take care of the first 18 DAYS worth of debt in the Month of February 2010 under the increased spending of the Obama White House.

That's right the OBAMA Administration. You fucking clown Liberals own ALL of this now. No more Belly Aching pussy excuses about we inherited from GWB...blah blah blah....when they come with the torches and pitchforks I will point them they way to you.

yeah but youre forgetting the spending spree the Bush administrastion went on.


Conservatives showed their true colors: big government, out of control spending, taking away civil liberties. Let the liberals fix the shithouse your boys created.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

yeah but youre forgetting the spending spree the Bush administrastion went on.


Conservatives showed their true colors: big government, out of control spending, taking away civil liberties. Let the liberals fix the shithouse your boys created.

Bush was no conservative!!!! What the hell are you talking about? He expanded the gov't more than anyone since LBJ. BHO is eclipsing his record

[Crispy123]

Bush was no conservative!!!! What the hell are you talking about? He expanded the gov't more than anyone since LBJ. BHO is eclipsing his record

President Obama is taking the country to the center from the far right swerve we took under the conservative majority in the whitehouse and congress. Don't sweat it. They are trying there best to get back to where we were under Clinton.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Now that Obamacare is sealed, the next thing on the agenda is Amnesty and sad to say, its going to be a Republican that will bring the ship down.

[Serpico1103]

Now that Obamacare is sealed, the next thing on the agenda is Amnesty and sad to say, its going to be a Republican that will bring the ship down.
Why is it sad that it is a republican? Oh that's right you are one. How many people did jesus heal? How many will obama? All praise barry almighty. I want free gym membership next or free netflix (4 at once). Socialism is great.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Why is it sad that it is a republican? Oh that's right you are one. How many people did jesus heal? How many will obama? All praise barry almighty. I want free gym membership next or free netflix (4 at once). Socialism is great.

Its Lindsey Grahmnesty that piece of garbage working with Chuck Schumer to legalize 20 million people who broke the law

How about having your lawn mowed by an illegal alien for the entire summer for Free. Let Barry pass an executive order for that. or how about Free Jewelry for you, call it Gold for Gringos!!!

Anyone who believes this will bring down the deficit is a rube

[Ogre]

yeah but youre forgetting the spending spree the Bush administrastion went on.


Conservatives showed their true colors: big government, out of control spending, taking away civil liberties. Let the liberals fix the shithouse your boys created.

Making you buy a product is not taking away your liberty?

Spreading "around the wealth", IE taking what's mine and giving it to someone else is theft. That is not taking away one's liberty? Confiscating my property (money) to give to his political base is theft.

As far as out of control spending you need to get your facts straight about the amount and rate of debt this White House has incurred as apposed to past Presidents.

You Sir are nothing more than a free loading fucking Hippie from the "Give Me Something for Doing Nothing Crowd."

The day will come that there will be more at the trough drinking than the one's actually bringing the water to the trough. Then where will your Socialist fucking Utopia be then?

[Ogre]

Why is it sad that it is a republican? Oh that's right you are one. How many people did jesus heal? How many will obama? All praise barry almighty. I want free gym membership next or free netflix (4 at once). Socialism is great.

I hope and pray that you burn in the Hell you deny.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

BHO just created 16,000 jobs.

IN THE IRS!!!!!!

[Furtherman]

Let's see... millions of more people will be able to receive health coverage. Insurance companies won't be able to drop you if you get sick, and it will raise taxes, largely on the rich. Sounds like a good deal to me. It's a good thing those who educated themselves on the facts and ignored the fear-mongering came together for compromise. Gives a little boost in my faith towards those who shape our laws.

[Recyclerz]

BHO just created 16,000 jobs.

IN THE IRS!!!!!!

Tax cheats > illegal immigrants?

[Serpico1103]

I hope and pray that you burn in the Hell you deny.
How very christian of you. My lord and savior obama will protect me. He has "insured" my health. Now I hope he puts troops on every corner to ensure my safety. Obama on the highest. WF- I don't want gold. Just electronics.

[A.J.]

and it will raise taxes, largely on the rich.

Here's the problem though: define "rich".

By some standards, I'm considered rich -- and I can assure you that I'm not.

[Furtherman]

Here's the problem though: define "rich".

By some standards, I'm considered rich -- and I can assure you that I'm not.

Extremely wealthy? Individuals earning $200,000 a year and couples making more than $250,000.

That's some bank. We're all going to pay higher taxes year after year no matter what political party is in charge. You gotta pay to play. If some of my taxes go to help the state, the city and some go to help others, I have no problem with that. I just see the whole "taxes will be raised too much" argument as futile, as taxes will always be raised, inevitably as our country grows. You want to slow down that rising tide? Mandatory abortions!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Let's see... millions of more people will be able to receive health coverage. Insurance companies won't be able to drop you if you get sick, and it will raise taxes, largely on the rich. Sounds like a good deal to me. It's a good thing those who educated themselves on the facts and ignored the fear-mongering came together for compromise. Gives a little boost in my faith towards those who shape our laws.

Just the rich? Try everyone else. Rich people know where to hide their money in tax shelters so the middle class will be squeezed again

[tanless1]

I wonder how many are aginst the actual plan and how many are against it because its the Democrats baby.

I swear its like watching a fucking football game anymore. Where people dont care what happens during the game, what the rules are, and how it affects the fans as long as their team wins. I never understood the people that pound their chests when their political party wins a vote or an election.

This a fair and reasonable inquiry, it would be equaly fair to ask yourself " is your support for this bill due to party affiliation?"

.. I've said plenty in this thread, no need to repeat and repeat.

[Serpico1103]

Just the rich? Try everyone else. Rich people know where to hide their money in tax shelters so the middle class will be squeezed again
So instead of fighting for reform to ensure that the rich don't avoid paying their share, u want everyone to avoid responsibility. Let me know when you can't afford several tvs(go shoping for a 3d tv yet?) and new cars every few years. Than I'll listen to your working class struggle rants.

[Furtherman]

Just the rich? Try everyone else. Rich people know where to hide their money in tax shelters so the middle class will be squeezed again

And here we are. Thank you for neutralizing any point you might have made before. Have you just been using those One Day Free gym passes? I guess Obama-care won't allow you to afford the real thing.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So instead of fighting for reform to ensure that the rich don't avoid paying their share, u want everyone to avoid responsibility. Let me know when you can't afford several tvs(go shoping for a 3d tv yet?) and new cars every few years. Than I'll listen to your working class struggle rants.

Who said I am for them hiding their money?

Amazing how you dumb down rich that only 200g's is now the new rich.

I don't live beyond my means I have personal responsibility. Something your ilk thinks is the new F word. You think everyone should be entitled to an LCD TV with cable/satellite

[WRESTLINGFAN]

And here we are. Thank you for neutralizing any point you might have made before. Have you just been using those One Day Free gym passes? I guess Obama-care won't allow you to afford the real thing.

Your plan of trying to reap me into some class warfare rube isnt working. You just allowed yourself and your civil liberties to be violated by BHO and the Dems.

[Furtherman]

Your plan of trying to reap me into some class warfare rube isnt working. You just allowed yourself and your civil liberties to be violated by BHO and the Dems.

No I didn't, and I had no such plan. You've just exposed yourself as someone with a bullhorn screaming gibberish.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No I didn't, and I had no such plan. You've just exposed yourself as someone with a bullhorn screaming gibberish.

And you are exposed as a needy shill who needs government controlling your every moment in life.

[Furtherman]

:laugh:

Enjoy the crumbling of American democracy! The rest of us will.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

:laugh:

Enjoy the crumbling of American democracy! The rest of us will.

Its been crumbling long before BHO took office

[Death Metal Moe]

When does this start? Maybe I can finally have a few things looked at that I have been unable to have looked at in our "Land of Plenty."

Life is great in a land of 15% unemployment with shrinking job opportunities. Who cares if we have the best health care in the world (Which we don't, it's just something conservative talk show hosts love to scream until someone believes it as fact) if you can't have access to it? No money no care.

I know life isn't fair but we spend so much money on useless shit I think we can start to take care of our citizens.

[Serpico1103]

Who said I am for them hiding their money?

Amazing how you dumb down rich that only 200g's is now the new rich.

I don't live beyond my means I have personal responsibility. Something your ilk thinks is the new F word. You think everyone should be entitled to an LCD TV with cable/satellite
No. I don't think someone sitting on their couch watching cable tv on their plasma should talk about being a struggling middle class person. How much did your middle class parents spend on family entertainment a month? 250k outside of nyc is rich. Maybe not the first couple of years, but if you string 5+ years like that together, sorry if you had to spend to keep up with your neighbors. Answer this one question. One question. If you earn 300k and taxes go up 3 percent for over 250k how much more in taxes is that?
Answer please.

[Bob Impact]

So instead of fighting for reform to ensure that the rich don't avoid paying their share, u want everyone to avoid responsibility. Let me know when you can't afford several tvs(go shoping for a 3d tv yet?) and new cars every few years. Than I'll listen to your working class struggle rants.

Why should he have to? Why is he not entitled to what he's earned? Why is somebody else entitled to it simply because they did not earn it?

I'm not wealthy but they're taking damn near 30% of my pay off the top before you get to sales, property, state, medicaid, etc. I just did my taxes to find out that I dont qualify for the vast majority of stimulus packages, tax relief, etc. I'm living in my house with my finacee and we have to stop and think about whether or not we can afford things, not because we haven't tried hard, because we have. That's insanity.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No. I don't think someone sitting on their couch watching cable tv on their plasma should talk about being a struggling middle class person. How much did your middle class parents spend on family entertainment a month? 250k outside of nyc is rich. Maybe not the first couple of years, but if you string 5+ years like that together, sorry if you had to spend to keep up with your neighbors. Answer this one question. One question. If you earn 300k and taxes go up 3 percent for over 250k how much more in taxes is that?
Answer please.

When I was a child I didnt control the family budget so the trips to Disneyworld etc were not being calculated by myself.

Why don't you factorin other taxes like property taxes which keep rising even though property values are shrinking. What about the VAT tax that Pelosi wants to get her talons on. Cap and Trade, lets add that too. How many other taxes do you want?

Damn the taxpayers those greedy non caring monsters. How dare them want to keep some of what they EARNED!!!!! Redistribute it to the recipient class. DAMN THE TAXPAYER!!!!!

[Bob Impact]

No. I don't think someone sitting on their couch watching cable tv on their plasma should talk about being a struggling middle class person. How much did your middle class parents spend on family entertainment a month? 250k outside of nyc is rich. Maybe not the first couple of years, but if you string 5+ years like that together, sorry if you had to spend to keep up with your neighbors. Answer this one question. One question. If you earn 300k and taxes go up 3 percent for over 250k how much more in taxes is that?
Answer please.

9,000 dollar, which leaves the person who made 300K with just over 190,000 dollars after income taxes only. It would take 4 people making 100K annually or 8 making 50K to cover what the 1 making 300 pays in. How is he not paying his "fair share"

But that has nothing to do with it, explain to me why you have a right to that money. Don't explain to me what taxes go towards, i understand that, we're obviously talking about income redistribution. What have you, or anyone else, done to earn that money?

[foodcourtdruide]

9,000 dollar, which leaves the person who made 300K with just over 190,000 dollars after income taxes only. It would take 4 people making 100K annually or 8 making 50K to cover what the 1 making 300 pays in. How is he not paying his "fair share"

But that has nothing to do with it, explain to me why you have a right to that money. Don't explain to me what taxes go towards, i understand that, we're obviously talking about income redistribution. What have you, or anyone else, done to earn that money?

What does "earning" money have to do with it? That's such a subjective thing. Do you think children of wealthy people "earned" anything? Do you think people who are born into better conditions than others, and are more succesful than others though they haven't worked as hard have "earned" their status in society?

[Serpico1103]

9,000 dollar, which leaves the person who made 300K with just over 190,000 dollars after income taxes only. It would take 4 people making 100K annually or 8 making 50K to cover what the 1 making 300 pays in. How is he not paying his "fair share"

But that has nothing to do with it, explain to me why you have a right to that money. Don't explain to me what taxes go towards, i understand that, we're obviously talking about income redistribution. What have you, or anyone else, done to earn that money?
WRONG! It is 1500. It is an increase of the marginal rate. So only the 50k above 250 would be taxed at the increased rate. 1500 extra for someone making 300k. I don't think most people understand how tax rates work. Someone making 260k would see a raise of 300 dollars. Oh no. I don't like paying taxes. But I don't like living without police, firemen, public roads, mass transit, public schools, or general anarchy. Don't like taxes, simple, live society. Want true liberty, leave society. Want to share burdens, have restricted freedom? Welcome to society. WF couldn't answer could you?

[Bob Impact]

What does "earning" money have to do with it? That's such a subjective thing. Do you think children of wealthy people "earned" anything? Do you think people who are born into better conditions than others, and are more succesful than others though they haven't worked as hard have "earned" their status in society?

If they worked for the money they were paid they earned it, regardless of how much you wish they didn't.
Edit: Basically your argument is "They didn't earn it so everyone has the same claim to it" is that fair?

WRONG! It is 1500. It is an increase of the marginal rate. So only the 50k above 250 would be taxed at the increased rate. 1500 extra for someone making 300k. I don't think most people understand how tax rates work. Someone making 260k would see a raise of 300 dollars. Oh no. I don't like paying taxes. But I don't like living without police, firemen, public roads, mass transit, public schools, or general anarchy. Don't like taxes, simple, live society. Want true liberty, leave society. Want to share burdens, have restricted freedom? Welcome to society. WF couldn't answer could you?

Fair enough, you're right on my math error. You still have not answered my question, by what right is that money not theirs?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

WRONG! It is 1500. It is an increase of the marginal rate. So only the 50k above 250 would be taxed at the increased rate. 1500 extra for someone making 300k. I don't think most people understand how tax rates work. Someone making 260k would see a raise of 300 dollars. Oh no. I don't like paying taxes. But I don't like living without police, firemen, public roads, mass transit, public schools, or general anarchy. Don't like taxes, simple, live society. Want true liberty, leave society. Want to share burdens, have restricted freedom? Welcome to society. WF couldn't answer could you?

Who said anything about anarchy? No one wants to live in a society like Mogadishu. I am stating redistributing money to people that didnt earn it is defacto theft. Who said anything that I don't want to pay taxes. How do you think the military and basic functions of government are funded. Where in the enumerated powers does it say that welfare recipients are entitled to your income? General welfare does not mean the lazy who prefer to sit at home watching TV all day and pumping out kids

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What does "earning" money have to do with it? That's such a subjective thing. Do you think children of wealthy people "earned" anything? Do you think people who are born into better conditions than others, and are more succesful than others though they haven't worked as hard have "earned" their status in society?

Thats life man. Some people are lucky to be born to rich parents. I know thats not fair ito you.

[Serpico1103]

Fair enough, you're right on my math error. You still have not answered my question, by what right is that money not theirs?
I try to respond, just long posts lose me. And not well suited for this format.
Because you have nothing without the government. Is that your house? Why? You repel invaders or the goverment has established property rights (which are limited). Your taxes are an admission fee. I make nice coin, pay a lot of taxes, have great health insurance. So, I am not looking for handouts, I am looking to live in a civilized society. To me, universal healthcare is part of it. We give SS benefits to handicapped people. Fuck those lazy bastards they didn't earn it.

[Bob Impact]

I try to respond, just long posts lose me. And not well suited for this format.
Because you have nothing without the government. Is that your house? Why? You repel invaders or the goverment has established property rights (which are limited). Your taxes are an admission fee. I make nice coin, pay a lot of taxes, have great health insurance. So, I am not looking for handouts, I am looking to live in a civilized society. To me, universal healthcare is part of it. We give SS benefits to handicapped people. Fuck those lazy bastards they didn't earn it.

Here's the short version:
Explain to me why you have a right to that money. Don't explain to me what taxes go towards. What have you, or anyone else, done to earn that money?

[Serpico1103]

Thats life man. Some people are lucky to be born to rich parents. I know thats not fair ito you.
So, if I am born stronger than you I should be able to take ur stuff? Oh wait you want mommy government to protect you. It is about furthering society. Is just handing stupid rich kids money good for scoiety or will society be furthered by getting some of that capital into the hands of people who will do something with it. The idea beyond RAP. Rule against perpituities(sp). Do you deduct your mortgage? Why, renters can't. Oh, that is mommy encouraging homeownership, what it decided was good for society.

[Serpico1103]

Here's the short version:
Explain to me why you have a right to that money. Don't explain to me what taxes go towards. What have you, or anyone else, done to earn that money?
I am not getting your money. What does the government do for it? The list is rather long. Keep it simple. How about the help esd got for his daughter. You want to just pay a la carte. So when a cop makes an arrest you want a bill? When a kid gets an education instead of being a criminal, you want an itemizied bill? When you eat your dinner free from worry that it is contaminated due to government regulations, you want a fda surcharge? You pay taxes for services for use, you may need in the future, and others you hope you never need. If you are a hard worker, find an island and have at it.

[Bob Impact]

I am not getting your money. What does the government do for it? The list is rather long. Keep it simple. How about the help esd got for his daughter. You want to just pay a la carte. So when a cop makes an arrest you want a bill? When a kid gets an education instead of being a criminal, you want an itemizied bill? When you eat your dinner free from worry that it is contaminated due to government regulations, you want a fda surcharge? You pay taxes for services for use, you may need in the future, and others you hope you never need. If you are a hard worker, find an island and have at it.

I'm going to take this as you saying that you don't have an answer to my question.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So, if I am born stronger than you I should be able to take ur stuff? Oh wait you want mommy government to protect you. It is about furthering society. Is just handing stupid rich kids money good for scoiety or will society be furthered by getting some of that capital into the hands of people who will do something with it. The idea beyond RAP. Rule against perpituities(sp). Do you deduct your mortgage? Why, renters can't. Oh, that is mommy encouraging homeownership, what it decided was good for society.

There are laws which protect private property rights and if you try to invade my home I have a right to protect myself and my belongings. Mommy gov't isnt promoting home ownership. I as a property owner have more of a liability and tax burden then a renter does.

[Serpico1103]

I'm going to take this as you saying that you don't have an answer to my question.
You want me to tell you what the government does for youyr taxes? I don't know you, so how can I answer specifically? Keep a journal for a week, post it, and I will point out where your tax dollars helped you. You like to think that you earn everything you have. Sorry. You are the beneficiary of probably the worlds biggest handout. A fairly free and oppurtunity full society. Where did that come from? Tax dollars.