National Health Care Debate

[Bob Impact]

You want me to tell you what the government does for youyr taxes? I don't know you, so how can I answer specifically? Keep a journal for a week, post it, and I will point out where your tax dollars helped you. You like to think that you earn everything you have. Sorry. You are the beneficiary of probably the worlds biggest handout. A fairly free and oppurtunity full society. Where did that come from? Tax dollars.

No, I want to know why if I work for money and earn it, Anyone else has a right to it. I can not be any clearer than I'm being... BY WHAT RIGHT?

[foodcourtdruide]

If they worked for the money they were paid they earned it, regardless of how much you wish they didn't.
Edit: Basically your argument is "They didn't earn it so everyone has the same claim to it" is that fair?



Fair enough, you're right on my math error. You still have not answered my question, by what right is that money not theirs?

Not exactly bob. My argument is more that the whole notion of "what's mine is mine" is flawed and I'm more concerned with the needs of society, as opposed to the needs of the individual. Obviously, I still believe in private ownership and I don't think there should be an equal distribution of wealth, however when their are egregious disparities, I believe that a group of our elected officials, who have to answer to the public, should correct them.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You want me to tell you what the government does for youyr taxes? I don't know you, so how can I answer specifically? Keep a journal for a week, post it, and I will point out where your tax dollars helped you. You like to think that you earn everything you have. Sorry. You are the beneficiary of probably the worlds biggest handout. A fairly free and oppurtunity full society. Where did that come from? Tax dollars.

Again who said that taxes shouldn't exist? Youre missing the point where some taxes are necessary as mandated in the constitution.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Not exactly bob. My argument is more that the whole notion of "what's mine is mine" is flawed and I'm more concerned with the needs of society, as opposed to the needs of the individual. Obviously, I still believe in private ownership and I don't think there should be an equal distribution of wealth, however when their are egregious disparities, I believe that a group of our elected officials, who have to answer to the public, should correct them.

So why do welfare recipients many of them think they have a right to take your money believe that? Why is it the governments role when there are churches and charities for that?

[foodcourtdruide]

No, I want to know why if I work for money and earn it, Anyone else has a right to it. I can not be any clearer than I'm being... BY WHAT RIGHT?

Society has put you in the position to earn what you've earned, why can't society rebalance itself if things are out-of-whack? You are willing to follow societies rule that places more monetary value on your hard work than someone elses, however your resist societies attempt to correct itself.

[Serpico1103]

Again who said that taxes shouldn't exist? Youre missing the point where some taxes are necessary as mandated in the constitution.
Take ur con law argument to court like ur lib buddies scam artist dad. You are a jackpot baby. You could have been born an untouchable in india, instead you hit the jackpot and were born here. Did you earn it?

BOB- what right? They are billing u for services. Read the court cases about guys denying the government has the right. How did they turn out. I have no answer to the "the government has no right to tax argument." Because it is libertarian nonesense that no court has ever respected. Take a stand- don't pay or leave.

[foodcourtdruide]

So why do welfare recipients many of them think they have a right to take your money believe that? Why is it the governments role when there are churches and charities for that?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by your first question, or why you think you know what welfare recipients are thinking.

We've already had the discussion about why churches and charities shouldn't (and can't) provide this role, but you ignored our points earlier so you'll probably ignore them again.

[Bob Impact]

Take ur con law argument to court like ur lib buddies scam artist dad. You are a jackpot baby. You could have been born an untouchable in india, instead you hit the jackpot and were born here. Did you earn it?

BOB- what right? They are billing u for services. Read the court cases about guys denying the government has the right. How did they turn out. I have no answer to the "the government has no right to tax argument." Because it is libertarian nonesense that no court has ever respected. Take a stand- don't pay or leave.

You aren't following me. I don't know how to make it any clearer to you.

Society has put you in the position to earn what you've earned, why can't society rebalance itself if things are out-of-whack? You are willing to follow societies rule that places more monetary value on your hard work than someone elses, however your resist societies attempt to correct itself.

So who gets to decide when things are out of whack? Who is society in this case?

In your example society is someone freely deciding to pay me what I ask for as a salary, we voluntarily do business with each other. "Society" has then decided without my input or my consent that this is invalid and that my money should be given to someone else, is that what you consider fair?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Take ur con law argument to court like ur lib buddies scam artist dad. You are a jackpot baby. You could have been born an untouchable in india, instead you hit the jackpot and were born here. Did you earn it?

BOB- what right? They are billing u for services. Read the court cases about guys denying the government has the right. How did they turn out. I have no answer to the "the government has no right to tax argument." Because it is libertarian nonesense that no court has ever respected. Take a stand- don't pay or leave.

What does earning money thru my labor have to do with separating me from someone in India?

Jackpot babies are the ones born to illegal aliens who have no right to be here

Just be honest and say that you want a European style social democracy and get it over with!!!

[Furtherman]

Jackpot babies are the ones born to illegal aliens who have no right to be here

How dare they pick the U.S. to be born in!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How dare they pick the U.S. to be born in!

How dare the illegal open their short fat legs in this country

[Serpico1103]

You want me to point to statutes and regulations that empower the irs to collect and enforce taxes? I don't have the IRC in front of me. Why don't you read the court cases saying the government has the right. Was it unanimous? What did the dissent say? Don't just read libertarian bullet points denying the government has the right.

[Serpico1103]

What does earning money thru my labor have to do with separating me from someone in India?

Jackpot babies are the ones born to illegal aliens who have no right to be here

Just be honest and say that you want a European style social democracy and get it over with!!!
Oh no europe!!!! What right did you have to be born here? you really think you earned everything in your life. You hit the jackpot. How did you earn your citizenship? You pushed your dads ass when he impregnanted your mom?

[foodcourtdruide]

You aren't following me. I don't know how to make it any clearer to you.



So who gets to decide when things are out of whack? Who is society in this case?

In your example society is someone freely deciding to pay me what I ask for as a salary, we voluntarily do business with each other. "Society" has then decided without my input or my consent that this is invalid and that my money should be given to someone else, is that what you consider fair?

We decide. We are society. We elect people to decide where our money should be allocated. I think Reagan really installed (or enforced) a sense of pessimism about our government. I wish his message was about improving our government instead of mistrusting it, we'd be a lot better off now. I think democracy is an amazing thing, especially in a country of this size.

Society decided without the consent of the person who makes less than you how much money he/she deserves. What is not fair to you is fair to others. Why is it fair that you're born into a certain socio-economic status?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Oh no europe!!!! What right did you have to be born here? you really think you earned everything in your life. You hit the jackpot. How did you earn your citizenship? You pushed your dads ass when he impregnanted your mom?

No but I originated as the lone survivor who happened to swim his way to the end and make it too bad for the other millions of poor saps. That how I earned it

Do you really hate yourself so much that you have to bring up baseless arguements like that?

[LordJezo]

"Starting in 2013, flexible spending accounts, which allow users to escape taxes on many medical expenses now, will be limited. There will be a $2,500 maximum on accounts that typically carry $4,000 or $5,000 limits now, and you will no longer be able to use the accounts for over-the-counter medicines."

Yay.

My OTC expenses are going to go up!

Thanks Obama!

[underdog]

I hope and pray that you burn in the Hell you deny.

You want someone to go to the worst place you can imagine because he wants universal health care.

You christians are fucking crazy.

[mikeyboy]

"Starting in 2013, flexible spending accounts, which allow users to escape taxes on many medical expenses now, will be limited. There will be a $2,500 maximum on accounts that typically carry $4,000 or $5,000 limits now, and you will no longer be able to use the accounts for over-the-counter medicines."

Yay.

My OTC expenses are going to go up!

Thanks Obama!

There goes my flexible spending funded meth lab.

[Jujubees2]

There goes my flexible spending funded meth lab.

I know this guy in Albuquerque who might be able to help you...

[Furtherman]

There goes my flexible spending funded meth lab.

:laugh:

[Syd]

There are laws which protect private property rights and if you try to invade my home I have a right to protect myself and my belongings. Mommy gov't isnt promoting home ownership. I as a property owner have more of a liability and tax burden then a renter does.

You don't write off your mortgage? That's a huge tax break. Lowers your tax burden considerably.

[Syd]

We decide. We are society. We elect people to decide where our money should be allocated. I think Reagan really installed (or enforced) a sense of pessimism about our government. I wish his message was about improving our government instead of mistrusting it, we'd be a lot better off now. I think democracy is an amazing thing, especially in a country of this size.

This, times a million. Instead of attempting to fix government, Reagan sold off huge chunks of it to private business. The lack of oversight now is what creates financial panics. No one is looking out for the common good because Reagan decided that businesses would be benevolent enough. S&L, .com boom, Enron/Worldcom/Tyco, subprime/CDO/CDS fiasco. The list will go on and on because no one trusts the government, they trust the people who are actively robbing them instead.

[LordJezo]

There goes my flexible spending funded meth lab.

As a rich lawyer and a member of the elite I hope these new taxes that will hit you as a mega earner will pain you into knowing this was a bad decision for everyone.

[Furtherman]

Mikeyboy is a member of the elite? I had no idea. Is that why his flowing locks shine?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This, times a million. Instead of attempting to fix government, Reagan sold off huge chunks of it to private business. The lack of oversight now is what creates financial panics. No one is looking out for the common good because Reagan decided that businesses would be benevolent enough. S&L, .com boom, Enron/Worldcom/Tyco, subprime/CDO/CDS fiasco. The list will go on and on because no one trusts the government, they trust the people who are actively robbing them instead.

Dont forget about the Federal reserve. Most of the booms and busts have been caused by the Fed

How about banks being required to lend to people who would never qualify. How about mortgages with no down payment? FANNIE/FREDDIE backing up all these loans as well. Government is part of the problem for this fiasco its not just the private sector

[Serpico1103]

You don't write off your mortgage? That's a huge tax break. Lowers your tax burden considerably.


Don't tell him. That money is going to my cousin's xbox. He is here illegally. WF and bob impact think they have built a fortress of solitude(they weren't given anything in their lives, earned it all) that the government is intruding on.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Don't tell him. That money is going to my cousin's xbox. He is here illegally. WF and bob impact think they have built a fortress of solitude(they weren't given anything in their lives, earned it all) that the government is intruding on.

And youre just a lemming who has committed faith that this will be another guhb-mint success story just like all the other ones layered on top of it.

Whats your point ? Just because I was born here I didnt deserve everything I earned? There are millions of others born here but they love to suck off the gov't teet. Cmon if youre so charitable write a check to the treasury because you feel you dont deserve it. Hell, do you really need the air conditioning this upcoming summer? Some illegal alien family cramped in a 1 br apt needs it more than you do. Selfish prick!!!!

[Furtherman]

Settle down WF. Your anger because your "side" lost, or something, has nothing to do with anything you're screaming about. Now you're just attacking for the sake of argument.

[The Bends]

I wonder how many are aginst the actual plan and how many are against it because its the Democrats baby.
Just like people who are Democrats are pumped about it because it's their party......Shoot, the President and Speaker aren't even sure of everything that's in this Bill......The pages keep coming in......As Pelosi said..."We have to pass this Bill, to find out what's in it".....Genius!

It's not just the Republicans who are against this Bill.....The independent/moderate is against this....so your retarded theory of homerism/partisanship doesn't work......except on the Dem's/Lib's

Also, if this bill was such a good thing, why did Obama have to bribe so many from his own party to vote his way, and why did Obama have to resort to so many dirty tactics?

Proceed to excuse making......and go!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Settle down WF. Your anger because your "side" lost, or something, has nothing to do with anything you're screaming about. Now you're just attacking for the sake of argument.

Im replying because Serp thinks that myself and Bob havent earned anything just because we were born in the US

Im angry because another huge government entitlement program added onto the tons of other ones is one step closer to collapsing the system. Its an expansion of the recipient class

If anyone should be heated at this bill it should be Serp, all the evil corporations that he hates are going to get tons of subsidies

This President promised to run on Changing DC everything he said his predecessors said was tainted and guess what? He did the same god damned thing. Strong arming, payoffs and arm twisting. How is that Change? 10 years of taxes to finance 6 years of "benefits". All the transparency and other lines he spewed during the campaign were all lies.

[Serpico1103]

I won I won I won. Yes. You were lucky, u didn't earn everything.you earned a certain amount the rest was handed to you by others sacrificng and handouts. Isn't liberty a gift or did you earn it? How have you convinced yourself that you earned your status as a white male americam citizen at a time of comfort.

[Furtherman]

We all know Barry can't do anything right in your eyes, anyway, WF. Don't even pretend to be upset that you were looking forward to campaign promises that, according to you, never happened.

[SonOfSmeagol]

What does "earning" money have to do with it? That's such a subjective thing. Do you think children of wealthy people "earned" anything? Do you think people who are born into better conditions than others, and are more succesful than others though they haven't worked as hard have "earned" their status in society?

Obviously, I still believe in private ownership and I don't think there should be an equal distribution of wealth, however when their are egregious disparities, I believe that a group of our elected officials, who have to answer to the public, should correct them

Society has put you in the position to earn what you've earned, why can't society rebalance itself if things are out-of-whack? You are willing to follow societies rule that places more monetary value on your hard work than someone elses, however your resist societies attempt to correct itself.

We decide. We are society. We elect people to decide where our money should be allocated.

But...oh, nevermind.

[Serpico1103]

Barry doesn't lie. What he says becomes the new truth. We won we won. I am shopping for plasmas now, or a 3d tv with my government handouts.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Settle down WF. Your anger because your "side" lost, or something, has nothing to do with anything you're screaming about. Now you're just attacking for the sake of argument.

I never believed anything he said and I knew with all the hype, the venerating of him and fanfare that above all he's just another politician.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Barry doesn't lie. What he says becomes the new truth. We won we won. I am shopping for plasmas now, or a 3d tv with my government handouts.

I hope the only channel you receive is Lifetime :furious:

[booster11373]

I never believed anything he said and I knew with all the hype, the venerating of him and fanfare that above all he's just another politician.

WOW you must be the smartest girl on the planet

[WRESTLINGFAN]

WOW you must be the smartest girl on the planet

Way smarter than you and more honest!!!! Are you telling me that you didnt fall for the hype? Now youre really being dishonest. Im surprised you didnt get a Yes we can tattoo

[booster11373]

Way smarter than you and more honest!!!! Are you telling me that you didnt fall for the hype? Now youre really being dishonest.

Your level of mis-information and just overall silliness stop me from ever taking anything you ever post serious.

Truth be told I think you might be mentally disabled or have some form of OCD

[The Bends]

Your level of mis-information and just overall silliness stop me from ever taking anything you ever post serious.

Truth be told I think you might be mentally disabled or have some form of OCD I've read your posts......you provide nothing of consiquence.....Between your bad jokes and your uninformed logic, you are the last person that should call anyone mis-informed......Wresting has you....he is more informed, can debate better, and has balls......Grow a pair and attack the subject, not the messenger....stop creating diversions in the hopes that they mask your lack of knowledge....

[The Bends]

Barry doesn't lie. What he says becomes the new truth. We won we won. I am shopping for plasmas now, or a 3d tv with my government handouts.

Silly turtle humor.....

[Furtherman]

It's like the blind leading the deaf. :laugh:

[CurseoftheBambi]

I've read your posts......you provide nothing of consiquence.....Between your bad jokes and your uninformed logic, you are the last person that should call anyone mis-informed......Wresting has you....he is more informed, can debate better, and has balls......Grow a pair and attack the subject, not the messenger....stop creating diversions in the hopes that they mask your lack of knowledge....


In my psychological text book...we call this PROJECTION! :bye:

[Serpico1103]

I've read your posts......you provide nothing of consiquence.....Between your bad jokes and your uninformed logic, you are the last person that should call anyone mis-informed......Wresting has you....he is more informed, can debate better, and has balls......Grow a pair and attack the subject, not the messenger....stop creating diversions in the hopes that they mask your lack of knowledge....
How much longer are you covered by your parents insurance?

[The Bends]

It's like the blind leading the deaf. :laugh:
Shouldn't you be crying somewhere, starting a thread about me?

[Serpico1103]

Silly turtle humor.....
Send me your picture. When I am done jacking I will ask my government plastic surgeon to make me look like you. Government entitlements!!

[booster11373]

I've read your posts......you provide nothing of consiquence.....Between your bad jokes and your uninformed logic, you are the last person that should call anyone mis-informed......Wresting has you....he is more informed, can debate better, and has balls......Grow a pair and attack the subject, not the messenger....stop creating diversions in the hopes that they mask your lack of knowledge....

Ouch! I was hoping you would call me a silly lib.

But still you sir have just changed my mind completely with that one post! Ive just ordered my American flag t-shirt and threw away my dictionary. How could I have been so wrong for so long?

Once again Sir I thank you. Your reasoned presence here benefits us all

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Your level of mis-information and just overall silliness stop me from ever taking anything you ever post serious.

Truth be told I think you might be mentally disabled or have some form of OCD

Is that the best you have? What misinformation? When you have nothing to debate just make some ad hominem attacks.

your attempts at humor make you look pathetic,

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Send me your picture. When I am done jacking I will ask my government plastic surgeon to make me look like you. Government entitlements!!

With Obamacare you might have to go on a waiting list. Pelosi takes priority

[Serpico1103]

Way smarter than you and more honest!!!! Are you telling me that you didnt fall for the hype? Now youre really being dishonest. Im surprised you didnt get a Yes we can tattoo
Prettier too? I am getting a yes we did tattoo.

[The Bends]

Ouch! I was hoping you would call me a silly lib.

But still you sir have just change my mind completely with that one post! Ive just ordered my American flag t-shirt and threw away my dictionary. How could I have been so wrong for so long?

Once again Sir I thank you. Your reasoned presence here benefits us allExample 1.....

[booster11373]

Example 1.....

Why wont you love me Ive done all that you asked

[Serpico1103]

We won...we....won....we...won...socialism...is....gr eat...communism...is..next....now...I...can stop...working,,,and collect;;;my"""government)))handouts###

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Prettier too? I am getting a yes we did tattoo.

I think you should get it to say hicimos sí

[The Bends]

Why wont you love me Ive done all that you asked Example 2........

[TripleSkeet]

This a fair and reasonable inquiry, it would be equaly fair to ask yourself " is your support for this bill due to party affiliation?"

.. I've said plenty in this thread, no need to repeat and repeat.

I dont have a party affiliation. And yes I do wonder how many people support the bill just because its their party thats proposed it. The problem lies on both sides. It seems since Clinton took office that people stopped just taking the loss and started working together to help the country and instead took this "hes not MY president" stand everytime their candidate lost. In the meantime they stonewall each other any way they can.

Personally Im not big on the entitlement gig. But I do believe healthcare is something all Americans should be entitled to. And yes if that means taxing the rich (and yes making over $250k a year makes you rich) then so be it. Forgive me if I dont feel bad that you may have to start driving brand new Fords or Chevys instead of BMWs. Too fucking bad. Youve made yourself rich from this country, you should have to give back more then those that havent been as lucky.

Now if they would just stop extending the unemployment thats something I could get behind. I know people that have been collecting for over a year because what they recieve is more then what they would make if they found a new job. Its not worth it for them to work. Thats an entitlement program that needs to change.

[underdog]

.....Between your bad jokes....

Silly turtle humor.....

Exactly.

[Serpico1103]

Why wont you love me Ive done all that you asked
You are on the ropes. He gave you example 1....example 2. No one makes it past example 3. Take your white liberal guilt and run.

[booster11373]

Example 2........

I can no longer take this punishment. Its a death by a thousand cuts with your fast biting wit please sir no more

[Serpico1103]

Example 2.5

[booster11373]

Example 2.5

will my keyboard explode when he gets to 3?

[Serpico1103]

will my keyboard explode when he gets to 3?
Cumsies. Daycare must restrict his computer usage.

[Serpico1103]

I live in NYC as well and almost never have a doctor that isn't incredible and also caring/involved.

And I meant diagnosing shit over your webcam, btw, not remote surgery if that link was for me.
In addition to saving lives, video consultation and other “telehealth” techniques can save money by giving facilities remote access to world-class specialists without having them on their payroll.
http://whitehatfirm.com/news/fcc-national-broadband-plan-to-enhance-health-care/2048.html

The future is coming.
Thank Obama.

[tanless1]

I dont have a party affiliation. And yes I do wonder how many people support the bill just because its their party thats proposed it. The problem lies on both sides. It seems since Clinton took office that people stopped just taking the loss and started working together to help the country and instead took this "hes not MY president" stand everytime their candidate lost. In the meantime they stonewall each other any way they can.

Personally Im not big on the entitlement gig. But I do believe healthcare is something all Americans should be entitled to. And yes if that means taxing the rich (and yes making over $250k a year makes you rich) then so be it. Forgive me if I dont feel bad that you may have to start driving brand new Fords or Chevys instead of BMWs. Too fucking bad. Youve made yourself rich from this country, you should have to give back more then those that havent been as lucky.

Now if they would just stop extending the unemployment thats something I could get behind. I know people that have been collecting for over a year because what they recieve is more then what they would make if they found a new job. Its not worth it for them to work. Thats an entitlement program that needs to change.

I could roll with most of that, except the 250k part. You have heard the 250 number again and again, can't fault you for that. It does sound like a lot, but hardley rich. That would put a person into a 50% tax bracket making that 250 into 125k annual. This is the point a person can comfortably live and save- our perception of these numbers are clouded by are tax structure.

I feel we would all benifit from a flat tax - propressive never to exceed 35% on the top earners.

It would be much harder to perpetuate the class warfare gammit.

And unlike the VAT tax, would be harder for the feds to alter/increase at wimsey....the ability to determine value per everchanging rhetoric is to great for the VAT.

We could absolutley see some latitude/deductibility for charitable giving of corporations in situations such as my proposed health care reform style.

For the most part the flat tax would give familys poor and wealthy alike the ability to breath. We'd see less money moving off shore for protection...and possibly more foriegn investment coming in.

[tanless1]

...but the bulk of the write offs would go, and be unneccesary due to simplicity of the tax structure.

[Serpico1103]

I could roll with most of that, except the 250k part. You have heard the 250 number again and again, can't fault you for that. It does sound like a lot, but hardley rich. That would put a person into a 50% tax bracket making that 250 into 125k annual. This is the point a person can comfortably live and save- our perception of these numbers are clouded by are tax structure.



A 50% tax bracket would not take 1/2 of your income, only half of your income in that bracket.
Some one making a million pays the same tax rate on the first $100,000 as a person who makes only $100,000. A person making $100,000 pays the same rate on the first 50,000 as a person making only $50,000.

So many people don't understand tax, tax brackets, withholding taxes, etc, but they get so emotional about it.
How long have you been paying taxes and you don't understand the difference between marginal, effective, and average rates.

[tanless1]

...does it really need to be that complicated ?
Complicated enough that gietner and wrangle can't figure it out.

And you know ill talk to ya serpico.

[tanless1]

We can do better than this serp, you know we can.

[Crispy123]

Making you buy a product is not taking away your liberty?

Spreading "around the wealth", IE taking what's mine and giving it to someone else is theft. That is not taking away one's liberty? Confiscating my property (money) to give to his political base is theft.

As far as out of control spending you need to get your facts straight about the amount and rate of debt this White House has incurred as apposed to past Presidents.

You Sir are nothing more than a free loading fucking Hippie from the "Give Me Something for Doing Nothing Crowd."

The day will come that there will be more at the trough drinking than the one's actually bringing the water to the trough. Then where will your Socialist fucking Utopia be then?

Yeah Im a free loading hippy that spent 10 years in the US Marine Corps and now get health care through the VA.

If you don't want other people's money paying for your health care don't ever fucking call 911 idiot.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

A 50% tax bracket would not take 1/2 of your income, only half of your income in that bracket.
Some one making a million pays the same tax rate on the first $100,000 as a person who makes only $100,000. A person making $100,000 pays the same rate on the first 50,000 as a person making only $50,000.

So many people don't understand tax, tax brackets, withholding taxes, etc, but they get so emotional about it.
How long have you been paying taxes and you don't understand the difference between marginal, effective, and average rates.

More of a reason to repeal the 16th ammendment and rid this disease of a progressive income tax

[Serpico1103]

i think it should be simpler. A progressive tax with very few deductions, credits, exemptions.
A person should be able to do their taxes easily without missing out on all the little secrets that professionals use and abuse to "shelter" money.

Like all laws, it should be simple and strictly enforced.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yeah Im a free loading hippy that spent 10 years in the US Marine Corps and now get health care through the VA.

If you don't want other people's money paying for your health care don't ever fucking call 911 idiot.

Semper Fi

I spent 4 years in the Corps. After I got out I went to register for the VA at the Montrose facility. Never again would I go there. The waiting time was horrendous. I know theres a facility in the Bx and Im sure thats just as bad.

Your experience with the VA is probably much better than mine, but whatever benefits you have you earned it. 3 months of hell at Parris Island his more than enough to earn that. Except if you went to San Diego, we know that they are Hollywood Marines.

[tanless1]

i think it should be simpler. A progressive tax with very few deductions, credits, exemptions.
A person should be able to do their taxes easily without missing out on all the little secrets that professionals use and abuse to "shelter" money.

Like all laws, it should be simple and strictly enforced.

I think I can agree with that as well

...got to grab a nap, ill stop back by later.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

i think it should be simpler. A progressive tax with very few deductions, credits, exemptions.
A person should be able to do their taxes easily without missing out on all the little secrets that professionals use and abuse to "shelter" money.

Like all laws, it should be simple and strictly enforced.

The current tax laws are 64,000 pages and grows every year. Add the healthcare bill and it spirals out of control even more. Its enforced but not that simple

[Serpico1103]

The current tax laws are 64,000 pages and grows every year. Add the healthcare bill and it spirals out of control even more. Its enforced but not that simple

It is not enforced. How many people get away with cheating? Both on a small scale (people claiming charity deductions they didn't make) and large scale (tax shelters on Caribbean islands.)
It encourages cheating and punishes the honest people.
Also, the IRS focuses on the little guy who they can force into submission. They avoid chasing wealthy people because they may lose, lobby pressure, afraid of unfavorable precedent, etc.
They just released the top tax delinquents in the state. Many owe millions of dollars. If I owe a couple of hundred dollars in parking fines they impound my car. How are these people not in jail? The millions they don't pay means you and I have to make it up.

[underdog]

Yeah Im a free loading hippy that spent 10 years in the US Marine Corps and now get health care through the VA.

If you don't want other people's money paying for your health care don't ever fucking call 911 idiot.

Did you even own a car during those 10 years? Probably not. Uncle Sam drove you EVERYWHERE HIPPY! Stop free loading by using our free guns!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Did you even own a car during those 10 years? Probably not. Uncle Sam drove you EVERYWHERE HIPPY! Stop free loading by using our free guns!

If we wanted to get off base and head out into town or go to LA or San Diego especially in 29 Palms a car was definitely needed.

We Marines never used guns. They are referred to as weapons. Sorry to be a hardass but things like that and saying Ex Marine always needs to be corrected, same with calling Marines soldiers, thats a no no but we will let it slide

[Serpico1103]

We Marines never used guns. They are referred to as weapons. Sorry to be a hardass but things like that and saying Ex Marine always needs to be corrected, same with calling Marines soldiers, thats a no no but we will let it slide

Are you telling us what to do? What gives you the right, solider? What next, the government telling me to carry insurance?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Are you telling us what to do? What gives you the right, solider? What next, the government telling me to carry insurance?

I was never in the Army so Im not a soldier :lol:

[Serpico1103]

I was never in the Army so Im not a soldier :lol:

Peace loving hippie.

[Crispy123]

If we wanted to get off base and head out into town or go to LA or San Diego especially in 29 Palms a car was definitely needed.

We Marines never used guns. They are referred to as weapons. Sorry to be a hardass but things like that and saying Ex Marine always needs to be corrected, same with calling Marines soldiers, thats a no no but we will let it slide

You Hollywood Marines living it up out at the stumps. :bye:

I don't think anyone who graduated from San Diego is actaully autorized to wear an EGA. :lol:

[LordJezo]

I bought some medicine for my sick wife this afternoon knowing that soon it will cost me more because of Obamacare. Now that I can't claim it on my FSA once the rules kick in our bills will go up.

All you guys can do is make Mikeyboy jokes, yet the only thing I know about this healthcare plan is how it is going to hurt my family.

[Furtherman]

All you guys can do is make mikeyboy jokes


pssst..... that was you

As a rich lawyer and a member of the elite I hope these new taxes that will hit you as a mega earner will pain you into knowing this was a bad decision for everyone.

[Bob Impact]

Wait, so i get back to work and we go from debating the relative strengths of collective action to talking about Mikeyboy?

Sweet!

I like his hair, it's so, so... flowing.

[LordJezo]

pssst..... that was you

That mikeyboy stuff was serious, he made his meth lab joke implying that only criminals rely on their FSA account to get medication. He is in the upper tax bracket and will be slammed with taxes. Meanwhile I will struggle to buy asprin.

[Ogre]

Yeah Im a free loading hippy that spent 10 years in the US Marine Corps and now get health care through the VA.

If you don't want other people's money paying for your health care don't ever fucking call 911 idiot.

I regret calling you names..like Hippie. I was wrong to do that.

[Dan 'Hampton]

That mikeyboy stuff was serious, he made his meth lab joke implying that only criminals rely on their FSA account to get medication. He is in the upper tax bracket and will be slammed with taxes. Meanwhile I will struggle to buy asprin.

You can get a huge-ass bottle at walmart for like $8. Cheer up there Buck.

[Crispy123]

I regret calling you names..like Hippie. I was wrong to do that.

Thanks for that. I apologize as well. I was more upset with the socialisms being thrown around.

It is obviously a heated issue. I do believe that the so called "conservatives" are not trying their best to shit on anyone that makes less money than themselves and drive this country in to the dirt but it hasn't been easy to see. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one my friend.

[Serpico1103]

I bought some medicine for my sick wife this afternoon knowing that soon it will cost me more because of Obamacare. Now that I can't claim it on my FSA once the rules kick in our bills will go up.

All you guys can do is make Mikeyboy jokes, yet the only thing I know about this healthcare plan is how it is going to hurt my family.

Work harder. Maybe give up your gym membership.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Oh for Christ's sake, the giddiness here today is nauseating.

:wink:

btw, “hippies” have taken many forms over the years and have evolved way beyond mere politics. Apologize? Never! :smoke:

[hanso]

Bush was no conservative!!!! What the hell are you talking about? He expanded the gov't more than anyone since LBJ. BHO is eclipsing his record

Bush left it at 1.4 T Obama has it at 1.8 T
Tot. is .4T in an effort to fix the mess.

[hanso]

That's what I wonder too, about the elected officials. The House of Representatives is collective of people representing the people of their state, county, locality, and so on. If this is truely a representative democracy, then we have to believe that EVERY SINGLE Republican representative was told by a majority of thier consituients 'Vote No'.

I have a hard time believing that they we all listening to their bases of support. The Dems had some guys waivering and even voting against the bill, but EVERY SINGLE republican...

C'mon. That's not policy making that just warfare.

It has been that way on most if not all bills. The one that had the rights votes on jobs. Only mustered 11 votes. What might be the only one just a week or two ago.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Bush left it at 1.4 T Obama has it at 1.8 T
Tot. is .4T in an effort to fix the mess.

Whoa there. I believe that the 1.4T for gwb was over the entire eight years. The 1.8 T for bho is in his first year only. bho budget plans are projected to add well over 9 T over the next ten years, maybe even more.

[CaptainBlowhole]

If you oppose it, here is a link (www.aclj.org) to get involved in a suit against the government. Just sayin'

[Kublakhan61]

I bought some medicine for my sick wife this afternoon knowing that soon it will cost me more because of Obamacare. Now that I can't claim it on my FSA once the rules kick in our bills will go up.

All you guys can do is make Mikeyboy jokes, yet the only thing I know about this healthcare plan is how it is going to hurt my family.

It's not going to hurt you as much as no reform was going to hurt you.

[hanso]

Whoa there. I believe that the 1.4T for gwb was over the entire eight years. The 1.8 T for bho is in his first year only. bho budget plans are projected to add well over 9 T over the next ten years, maybe even more.

yes it went from 1.4 to 1.8. that is .4.
And it is spent to fix the mess left behind.
That money is a loan BTW
And you left out the surplus Bush started with.

[SonOfSmeagol]

yes it went from 1.4 to 1.8. that is .4.
And it is spent to fix the mess left behind.
That money is a loan BTW
And you left out the surplus Bush started with.

No, that is not the way it works.

I believe that it's like a line of credit - a balance owed that is the cumulative of all yearly budget surpluses/deficits.

gwb added 1.4 T to that balance owed over his 8 year presidency. bho added 1.8 T to that balance owed in his first fiscal year. Now, like 3 months of FY09 was still gwb's, but still...the stimulus and unnecessary 8% expansion of discretionary Fed gov't in FY09 was all bho. And, by computing the yearly deficits expected based on bho's budget plans going to FY19, bho is projected to add a total of well over 9 T to that balance.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You Hollywood Marines living it up out at the stumps. :bye:

I don't think anyone who graduated from San Diego is actaully autorized to wear an EGA. :lol:

Living it up? HAAAAAA Every other Marine in the Fleet only had to be there for 2 weeks for CAX. Those 100+ degree days trying to hump with full gear in the sand was a bitch

I was in Lejeune for MCT and ITB and digging foxholes in that red clay was a pain in the ass and when it rained even worse

Youre right about those San Diego Marines:lol:

[Crispy123]

Living it up? HAAAAAA Every other Marine in the Fleet only had to be there for 2 weeks for CAX. Those 100+ degree days trying to hump with full gear in the sand was a bitch

I was in Lejeune for MCT and ITB and digging foxholes in that red clay was a pain in the ass and when it rained even worse

Youre right about those San Diego Marines:lol:

Land nav is definitely easier on the East Coast, thankfully my time in the dirt was minimal. It's hard to complain when you are soaring through the sky most of the time.

[A.J.]

Mandatory abortions!


Oh if only....

[A.J.]

Yeah Im a free loading hippy that spent 10 years in the US Marine Corps and now get health care through the VA.

Tricare? My sympathies.

[hanso]

No, that is not the way it works.

I believe that it's like a line of credit - a balance owed that is the cumulative of all yearly budget surpluses/deficits.

gwb added 1.4 T to that balance owed over his 8 year presidency. bho added 1.8 T to that balance owed in his first fiscal year. Now, like 3 months of FY09 was still gwb's, but still...the stimulus and unnecessary 8% expansion of discretionary Fed gov't in FY09 was all bho. And, by computing the yearly deficits expected based on bho's budget plans going to FY19, bho is projected to add a total of well over 9 T to that balance.

The total is the total. It is now at 1.8 from 1.4. It does not start over.
I stated the loan part being that most of the .4 from bho is due to the stimulus package which is a loan.

[hanso]

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So when does he start broadcasting his blowhard show from Costa Rica?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Land nav is definitely easier on the East Coast, thankfully my time in the dirt was minimal. It's hard to complain when you are soaring through the sky most of the time.

Air Wingers always had the life, us grunts on the other hand:wallbash:

[LordJezo]

It's not going to hurt you as much as no reform was going to hurt you.

How so?

[Serpico1103]

I feel like being a daredevil. With free healthcare I don't have to worry. I heard at the gym that hospital food will be catered by bobby flay now and everyone can write their own prescriptions.

[Jujubees2]

From the NY Times

Fear Strikes Out (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/opinion/22krugman.html)

[SonOfSmeagol]

The total is the total. It is now at 1.8 from 1.4. It does not start over.
I stated the loan part being that most of the .4 from bho is due to the stimulus package which is a loan.

No. You keep saying that and you're still wrong.


http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/21/GR2009032100104.gif


Projected Deficit - In the first independent analysis, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office concluded that President Obama's budget would rack up massive deficits even after the economy recovers, forcing the nation to borrow nearly $9.3 trillion over the next decade (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/21/GR2009032100104.html)

As if the magnitude of the numbers wasn't enough, check out the variance between WH vs. CBO. Disturbing.

It's a little old but if anything the situation is now worse.

[KnoxHarrington]

From the NY Times

Fear Strikes Out (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/opinion/22krugman.html)

I can possibly see Republicans riding nervousness and fear about the health care plan into gains in this November's mid-terms, but long term, I think their play on this will bite them in the ass. They spent so much of their strategy on trying to scare the living shit out of people on this, telling people that they're going to lose half their paycheck to higher taxes and Grandma's going to be hauled off to a death panel, that even if the health care plan isn't great, it'll look better in comparison.

That is, when health care isn't the socialistic nightmare of forced abortions and 200% tax they said it was, voters will feel better about it -- even if it's not great. It was a total failure of long-term thinking for the Republicans.

[Furtherman]

Well said KnoxHarrington... and correct.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I feel like being a daredevil. With free healthcare I don't have to worry. I heard at the gym that hospital food will be catered by bobby flay now and everyone can write their own prescriptions.

Under FDR a chicken in every pot

Under BHO An illegal alien towel boy for each gym member :clap:

[SonOfSmeagol]

From the NY Times

Fear Strikes Out (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/opinion/22krugman.html)

Typical Paul Krugman bullshit. Not only that, but he contrasts bho vs. Gingrich as the ones to pose the “closing argument” in the debate. Huh? Gingrich? Then he makes up a quote by Gingrich (see bottom of article). It’s ironic that he engages in fear-mongering of his own through his use of a misquote on civil rights, followed by repeated references to the misquote to try to pile on! What an asshole.

[Jujubees2]

Typical Paul Krugman bullshit. Not only that, but he contrasts bho vs. Gingrich as the ones to pose the “closing argument” in the debate. Huh? Gingrich? Then he makes up a quote by Gingrich (see bottom of article). It’s ironic that he engages in fear-mongering of his own through his use of a misquote on civil rights, followed by repeated references to the misquote to try to pile on! What an asshole.

He didn't make up the quote he attributed it to the wrong policy.

[Serpico1103]

You have to spend money to make money. The government will be rolling in dough soon. Is a buffet breakfast a right? Fucking starving.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You have to spend money to make money. The government will be rolling in dough soon. Is a buffet breakfast a right? Fucking starving.

Free gov't healthcare when we all get heart disease from all the bacon, egg omlettes, waffles and pancakes !!!!

[Dude!]

Under FDR a chicken in every pot

Under BHO An illegal alien towel boy for each gym member :clap:

and a fetus in every dumpster!

[Serpico1103]

and a fetus in every dumpster!
A fetus buffet. Fetus over easy with french toast. Thanks barry.You are divine.

[Jujubees2]

A fetus buffet. Fetus over easy with french toast. Thanks barry.You are divine.

Heard it tastes like chicken

[Dan 'Hampton]

Quick question, if mandatory health insurance is going to be a Waterloo for Democrats, then that pretty much makes it impossible for Romney to run for pres right? Besides being a Morman of course. Because last time I checked Romney set the same thing up in Massachusetts 3 years ago.

[Serpico1103]

Reagan's legacy- cold war winner. Bush 1- not finishing iraq, read my lips. Clinton- internet boom, bj. Bush 2- sept 11, iraq and afghanistan, starting depression. Barack "the magnificent" obama- ending the depression, giving healthcare to all? Suck it bitches, we win!!!!!!

[underdog]

Quick question, if mandatory health insurance is going to be a Waterloo for Democrats, then that pretty much makes it impossible for Romney to run for pres right? Besides being a Morman of course. Because last time I checked Romney set the same thing up in Massachusetts 3 years ago.

Facts and actual information have no place in a political debate, sir.

[angrymissy]

I can't wait to get my Government funded fertility drugs so I can have my multiple pregnancy and then have a Government funded multiple abortion!

[foodcourtdruide]

I can possibly see Republicans riding nervousness and fear about the health care plan into gains in this November's mid-terms, but long term, I think their play on this will bite them in the ass. They spent so much of their strategy on trying to scare the living shit out of people on this, telling people that they're going to lose half their paycheck to higher taxes and Grandma's going to be hauled off to a death panel, that even if the health care plan isn't great, it'll look better in comparison.

That is, when health care isn't the socialistic nightmare of forced abortions and 200% tax they said it was, voters will feel better about it -- even if it's not great. It was a total failure of long-term thinking for the Republicans.

I actually think it may hurt them short-term. Obama has proven that he CAN get things done. This doesn't go in-line with the message they've been pushing the past few months. I think all republicans voting against the measure truly makes them look like the "party-of-no" instead of the party of bipartisanship.

[Jujubees2]

Quick question, if mandatory health insurance is going to be a Waterloo for Democrats, then that pretty much makes it impossible for Romney to run for pres right? Besides being a Morman of course. Because last time I checked Romney set the same thing up in Massachusetts 3 years ago.

Romney has already been quoted as saying that marriage should be between a man and a woman... and a woman... and a woman...

And on healthcare, Scott Brown voted for it in Massachusetts but has said he would vote against it in the US Senate.

[Serpico1103]

I can't wait to get my Government funded fertility drugs so I can have my multiple pregnancy and then have a Government funded multiple abortion!
Do it with an illegal immigrant.

[foodcourtdruide]

Reagan's legacy- cold war winner. Bush 1- not finishing iraq, read my lips. Clinton- internet boom, bj. Bush 2- sept 11, iraq and afghanistan, starting depression. Barack "the magnificent" obama- ending the depression, giving healthcare to all? Suck it bitches, we win!!!!!!

I think Reagan will also go down for the failed "trickle-down economics" philosophy and Clinton may get some heat from his failed Israel/Palestine peace attempts, and share some of the deregulation blame. I don't think anyone will remember the Bush1 Iraq war and I'd say Bush2 will also go down for exanding government.

[Serpico1103]

I can possibly see Republicans... They spent so much of their strategy on trying to scare the living shit out of people on this, telling people that they're going to lose half their paycheck to higher taxes and Grandma's going to be hauled off to a death panel, that even if the health care plan isn't great, it'll look better in comparison.

No death panels? I packed the old lady's bags and had prospective renters looking at her place. Dammit.

[Dan 'Hampton]

Romney has already been quoted as saying that marriage should be between a man and a woman... and a woman... and a woman...

And on healthcare, Scott Brown voted for it in Massachusetts but has said he would vote against it in the US Senate.

Yeah I pay for it here. Nothing has changed at all. The people it hurts are single low end earners who don't have children. I'd like to see that changed but overall nothing has changed at all.

[angrymissy]

Do it with an illegal immigrant.

Damn maybe I shouldn't go for the multiple Government funded abortion, I'll just have 8 jackpot babies at once. SCORE.

[Syd]

WASHINGTON — Americans by 9 percentage points have a favorable view of the health care overhaul that President Obama signed into law Tuesday, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds, a notable turnaround from surveys before the vote that showed a plurality against it.

By 49%-40% those surveyed say it was "a good thing" rather than a bad one that Congress passed the bill. Half describe their reaction in positive terms, as "enthusiastic" or "pleased," while about four in 10 describe it in negative ways, as "disappointed" or "angry."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-03-23-health-poll-favorable_N.htm

They're already drinking the kool aid! Damn you, OBUMMA

[Serpico1103]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-03-23-health-poll-favorable_N.htm

They're already drinking the kool aid! Damn you, OBUMMA
So, people can't make up their own mind? Elitist!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-03-23-health-poll-favorable_N.htm

They're already drinking the kool aid! Damn you, OBUMMA

Kool aid and Obama in the same reference? Hatemonger!!!!!

[Serpico1103]

I forget. Did my side win? And what was the fight over?

[SonOfSmeagol]

I forget. Did my side win? And what was the fight over?

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[epo]

Reagan's legacy- cold war winner. Bush 1- not finishing iraq, read my lips. Clinton- internet boom, bj. Bush 2- sept 11, iraq and afghanistan, starting depression. Barack "the magnificent" obama- ending the depression, giving healthcare to all? Suck it bitches, we win!!!!!!

I would like to point out that Reagan's legacy of "winning the cold war" is quickly eroding. History is giving more and more of the credit to the USSR running out of money...hence ending the Cold War.

[badmonkey]

I would like to point out that Reagan's legacy of "winning the cold war" is quickly eroding. History is giving more and more of the credit to the USSR running out of money...hence ending the Cold War.

So did they spend all the money just on their govt run socialist programs alone or did trying to keep up with our military spending under Reagan have anything to do with it at all?

[SinA]

So did they spend all the money just on their govt run socialist programs alone or did trying to keep up with our military spending under Reagan have anything to do with it at all?

They an out of money because they got into an un-winable war with guerrilla rebels in Afghanistan.

There's no way that could happen to us.

[Crispy123]

Damn maybe I shouldn't go for the multiple Government funded abortion, I'll just have 8 jackpot babies at once. SCORE.

You are going to have to time this thing well because i don't think you'll be able to get your Obamabortion until 2014. :smoke:

[epo]

So did they spend all the money just on their govt run socialist programs alone or did trying to keep up with our military spending under Reagan have anything to do with it at all?

Check out the collapse in world petroleum prices in the 1980s. That would be the reason, not military spending or domestic programs.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Check out the collapse in world petroleum prices in the 1980s. That would be the reason, not military spending or domestic programs.

It was sooo much more complicated than petroleum prices. Not the least of which was the leadership of Reagan and Gorbachev, who both stepped up in the later 80s and realized the time was ripe for peace. To get to that point the steps Reagan took in his first term to get to be able to negotiate from a position of power later on were critical. Had we continued in the direction Carter was taking us - weakening us on every front - the lifespan of the USSR very well could’ve been extended indefinitely.

[underdog]

So did they spend all the money just on their govt run socialist programs alone or did trying to keep up with our military spending under Reagan have anything to do with it at all?

How are social programs worse or different than military spending? I don't get the "rah rah" for building a huge military while a lot of your people are sick. I'll protect you from the big bad outside world! But fuck you if you get an easily preventable sickness!

[Crispy123]

How are social programs worse or different than military spending? I don't get the "rah rah" for building a huge military while a lot of your people are sick. I'll protect you from the big bad outside world! But fuck you if you get an easily preventable sickness!

If you make me pay taxes and then spend it on people that are poor you are a socialist. If you make me pay taxes and increase the military you are a patriot.

[SonOfSmeagol]

How are social programs worse or different than military spending? I don't get the "rah rah" for building a huge military while a lot of your people are sick. I'll protect you from the big bad outside world! But fuck you if you get an easily preventable sickness!

The cold war was real. I’m not trying to spark the fear here but there was real potential for some serious shit. The need for the west to be able to blow away the east and vice versa and to continuously ratchet it up – that really happened.

I remember there was this movie – “The Day After”. Looks pretty cheesy if you view it now, but that was the potential reality we were looking at that could actually happen any fucking day. Not only did people like freak out when they saw that movie, but it turns out that it was a huge influence on both the US and USSR leaders - specifically Reagan and Gorby.

Easy to sit here thirty years later and second-guess – but that’s the real world as it was.

[CaptainBlowhole]

How are social programs worse or different than military spending? I don't get the "rah rah" for building a huge military while a lot of your people are sick. I'll protect you from the big bad outside world! But fuck you if you get an easily preventable sickness!

Because its not suppose to be the governments job to take care of you when you are sick, but they are suppose to protect us from outside enemies. You have to take care of your own body and care for it when it is sick.

[Bob Impact]

The cold war was real. I’m not trying to spark the fear here but there was real potential for some serious shit. The need for the west to be able to blow away the east and vice versa and to continuously ratchet it up – that really happened.

I remember there was this movie – “The Day After”. Looks pretty cheesy if you view it now, but that was the potential reality we were looking at that could actually happen any fucking day. Not only did people like freak out when they saw that movie, but it turns out that it was a huge influence on both the US and USSR leaders - specifically Reagan and Gorby.

Easy to sit here thirty years later and second-guess – but that’s the real world as it was.

Look up Dead Hand, that's some seriously scary shit there.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Look up Dead Hand, that's some seriously scary shit there.

Yikes! And apparently it's still active. At least we have humans to make those decisions (I think).

[underdog]

Because its not suppose to be the governments job to take care of you when you are sick, but they are suppose to protect us from outside enemies. You have to take care of your own body and care for it when it is sick.

That makes no sense.

So the government's job is to protect you, unless it's being done from inside your body?

Do you see how crazy what you posted is? Why should the government stop helping you at the border? I don't get it.

The cold war was real. I’m not trying to spark the fear here but there was real potential for some serious shit. The need for the west to be able to blow away the east and vice versa and to continuously ratchet it up – that really happened.

I wasn't really saying the cold war wasn't real. I was just saying the "threat" of an outside enemy in general.

[tanless1]

First of all, clinton was fully succesful in the peace talk, he talked israel into giving up everything palestine wanted, the only thing they refused was to drop dead. Arrefat however would of lost that lucrative flow of money. He died with billions in the bank account and his wifes account and his daughters account. Palistenians were kept in poverty so they'd keep fighting. arrefat the humanitarian.
And epo, its never been argued that regan won the cold war by outspending the ussr into colapse. The way you say it, it sounds as though it suddenly / recently became evident changing history from what it was
"usa out spent the ussr" to " the ussr ran out of money, as the usa spent so much"
....you nut

[SonOfSmeagol]

I wasn't really saying the cold war wasn't real. I was just saying the "threat" of an outside enemy in general.

And my point was that there was no "rah rah" about it. The threat was unquestionably real.

[Bob Impact]

Yikes! And apparently it's still active. At least we have humans to make those decisions (I think).

The idea of the system was that there would always be one very isolated human to make the final launch call but basically everything about that is speculation outside of the fact that it exists in some capacity, the Russian government isn't exactly bursting at the seams with enthusiasm to talk about it now.

[Bob Impact]

That makes no sense.

So the government's job is to protect you, unless it's being done from inside your body?

Do you see how crazy what you posted is? Why should the government stop helping you at the border? I don't get it.



I wasn't really saying the cold war wasn't real. I was just saying the "threat" of an outside enemy in general.

What's funny is I was about to post "So you want the government to control the inside of your body? Do you see how crazy what you posted is?"

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Last night that fucking hack Olbermann had one of his special comments saying that protesters were shouting slurs at black congressmen and Barney Frank. There were probably dozens of media outlets, mobile phone devices and video cameras. I didnt see anything on the news at all showing the shouts of the protesters

It could have happened thats common when you have large groups of people but the widespread chants, I have yet to see

[tanless1]

How are social programs worse or different than military spending? I don't get the "rah rah" for building a huge military while a lot of your people are sick. I'll protect you from the big bad outside world! But fuck you if you get an easily preventable sickness!

Have you read nothing of MY health care reform plan ?......you've not been absent.
There are easier less expensive less criplilng alternatives, and gives access to more people than this sham disguised as reform.....catch up underdog.

[tanless1]

...I may be guilty of perpetuating what id like to see us progress past.
So, let's hear your solutions. Let's stop relying on these politicians to actualy pass somthing that's helpful.
As soon as I get near a word program ill detale my plan and send it to represenitives and radio ( both sides) that's will be my effort.(and ill use spell checker so I looks smarter)
....what will your plan be, what are you willing to do (besides vote and bicker)
* this statement does not apply to all of you. There are some that I disagree with that I actually respect here*
.....are we just carring water back and forth, or do we have solutions ? Or worse, have we been bamboozeld into believing that only politicians with law degrees are capable of making the right decissions for us ? They aren't neccesarly wiser or even hold the country/constitions best interest at heart. Sure, they may have a educational pedigree,but again and again we see their moral compass does not reflect ours or the constition ( moral compass does not refer to a particular religous or secular belief, so stop it)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

According to John Dingell the fucking fossil its about controlling the people

"Let me remind you this [Americans allegedly dying because of lack of universal health care] has been going on for years. We are bringing it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you're going to pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people."

[underdog]

What's funny is I was about to post "So you want the government to control the inside of your body? Do you see how crazy what you posted is?"

Yes! I want their hands inside my body.

Have you read nothing of MY health care reform plan ?......you've not been absent.
There are easier less expensive less criplilng alternatives, and gives access to more people than this sham disguised as reform.....catch up underdog.

Your posts are difficult to read.

[Recyclerz]

Have you read nothing of MY health care reform plan ?......you've not been absent.
There are easier less expensive less criplilng alternatives, and gives access to more people than this sham disguised as reform.....catch up underdog.

I can't keep up. Can you point out what the #s of post(s) that you're talking about?

[tanless1]

.....there's no numbers on mobile, let me see if I can find you a day.

[tanless1]

Unable to see them right now(small track ball/ cellphone telephone ), I've hit the points a couple of times in the thread recently. Ill hilight it.

[tanless1]

What it does is authorize the feds to position themselves as bulk drug purchaser. They buy big and distribute inexpensivley- this allows the pharma to continue research as well as make profit
-also, stop the telivision add campaings.
With the large purchassing by the feds and the lack of overpriced telivision slots, I hope this would balance out the pharmas profit -less money out , more money in
.......

[tanless1]

Encourage township level scholarship programs for med students, the doctor commits to 6 years service in the town the town provides doctor w/ 40k wage tax free , house ( houses will be obtained from fourclosur market) and utilities.
......

[tanless1]

Local industry will be encouraged to fund the clinic by full value tax deductability and protection from malpractice suits, they are providing funding to help.
......

[tanless1]

The clinic visit should cost no more than $30 and under( slide scale) and pricriptions dirt cheap made possible by the feds bulk purchase promise order.
.......

[tanless1]

This will drive down the price of insurance as they won't be compensating for those uninsured. The doctors will be able to charge less if they choose to move into private practice as they're school loans won't be crippling them. And they'll still need to be competitive.
......

[tanless1]

The hospitals will be able to charge less as they won't be smotherd with clients, nor will they have the excuse
....

[tanless1]

This plan does not require the irs to be granted new powers to check your financial records monthly to make sure you are carrying.....

[tanless1]

....and its constitutional.

There is more to the plan.....but that's the jist.
This plan will make access available for everybody ( do not confuse this with coverd) but access.
....it doesn't dump a bunch of money into
The insurance pocket, it doesn't take a lot of money out of the taxpayers pocket and the feds will be funding research though prescription purchase.

[tanless1]

I apologise to all who have sufferd through this allready.

[Recyclerz]

What it does is authorize the feds to position themselves as bulk drug purchaser. They buy big and distribute inexpensivley- this allows the pharma to continue research as well as make profit
-also, stop the telivision add campaings.
With the large purchassing by the feds and the lack of overpriced telivision slots, I hope this would balance out the pharmas profit -less money out , more money in
.......

OK. I work as a consultant to a big Pharma company so I know a little about their business model so here are my comments on this:

The deal Obama reached with the PHRMA lobbyists is that the industry would "voluntarily" cut prices on drugs for seniors (reducing and finally eliminating the doughnut hole) to ward off the Feds from negotiating as a bulk buyer. If the Feds start negotiating at the national level like the other industrialized (or Socialist if you prefer) countries it would kick the stuffing out of the profit margins of practically all the drug companies, making them more risk averse and theoretically less innovative. The vast majority of their profits come from the unregulated market in the US.

Your plan would put the existing RX re-sellers (Medco, Wellpoint, McKesson) out of business and replace them with a gov't entity. (And you know what Fox News would call that.)

I think that limiting direct-to consumer ads would be a good idea but the mgmt. of these companies want to roll the dice that their new drugs could become "blockbusters" like Lipitor, et al. and keep the money pouring in from a few big hits. I think that model is crumbling but I'm not even close to being in charge so what I think doesn't really matter.

Drug companies are easy targets because they make shitloads of money but they are a relatively small fraction of the healthcare pie so this wouldn't bend the cost curve very much if at all.

[Recyclerz]

Encourage township level scholarship programs for med students, the doctor commits to 6 years service in the town the town provides doctor w/ 40k wage tax free , house ( houses will be obtained from fourclosur market) and utilities.
......

Training and hiring more doctors to practice in underserved areas is a good idea but if you keep it at a local level poor areas are not going to be able to fund such a program especially if the turnover is high (you'd have to try to keep them longer than 6 years). If you have a program like this at the federal level (as I believe Obamacare does) you get more efficiency and flexibility. We already have a similar deal with military doctors (and lawyers too).

[Recyclerz]

The clinic visit should cost no more than $30 and under( slide scale) and pricriptions dirt cheap made possible by the feds bulk purchase promise order.
.......

If you set prices at arbitrary levels you are going to get market distortions. this is one of the main arguments that critics have against any gov't interference - you don't fix the problem by changing the level of government as long as they still have police power to back up their decisions.

[tanless1]

The 6 years is a contract to work off their student loan, with the option of staying

Underserved areas could pool together( go to the next town) also that's was a sliding scale $30 and below. the doctor will be making a salary during his contract.

Other problems could be adressed.

[tanless1]

As for govt negotiating rock bottom dollar, not quite what I had in mind. I'm thinking more of a pay by weight (tons) and then distribute from fed to clinic level.
Sell thru to value concept.

[tanless1]

What's medical school cost per year these days. Maybe they could cut the citys a 30% break for the style of work the doctor will be preforming.....

[tanless1]

....this isn't a govt backed student loan, this is a citys scholarship fund. Granted the citys would need to continually keep doctors rolling so there is always experience on staff. Able to supervise and mentor....

[Pitdoc]

What it does is authorize the feds to position themselves as bulk drug purchaser. They buy big and distribute inexpensivley- this allows the pharma to continue research as well as make profit
-also, stop the telivision add campaings.
With the large purchassing by the feds and the lack of overpriced telivision slots, I hope this would balance out the pharmas profit -less money out , more money in
.......


That was one of the FIRST things to go in the healthcare reforms. In fact, Obama made a DEAL with Pharma so it wouldnt be in the bill .They gave back about 80 BILLION in consumer credits(could be wrong on this amount), and they got..probably 500
BILLION in not having to sell their drugs at wholesale prices from now on

[tanless1]

...at the federal level is the problem as it is unconstitional the way they are doing it.
....forcing everyone to carry insurance.
Where as a plan similar to mine would keep insurance cost lower to compete with a non-federal entitity.
I can walk into most clinics ( except utah ) and pay $80 cash get diagnosed and a pricription W/0 insurance.....that's still a little high for the average joe.

[Pitdoc]

Encourage township level scholarship programs for med students, the doctor commits to 6 years service in the town the town provides doctor w/ 40k wage tax free , house ( houses will be obtained from fourclosur market) and utilities.
......

They have that now.America can give grants to doctors , as long as they pledge to work in economically deprived areas for 4-5 yrs. It's in play where I am now. Some single localities also have deals with people who live in their areas to do the same .Why doesn't it happen more? Because most med students want to go places to EARN BIG MONEY when they get out of residency, not getting not bad money working on an Indian reservation ( where one of my friends from Med school went) or in bumfuck ( Where I live now)

[tanless1]

I can't blame pharma for not wanting to deal with these guys, they read the writing on the wall and saw it for european socialism. You let them get there foot in the door and pharma would have been sunk.
I'm looking to give pharma billions in purchases, not 500....but we need them to continue researching, and I'm not willing to cripple the goose just cause I can...

[tanless1]

....that's the plan, expand that.....it is the solution, and it affordable.

[tanless1]

But the feds need to help, not dictate. Make it easy for the parties to participate....not threaten their livelyhoods.

[tanless1]

But your right pit, this system is old as the praries, it is not being encouraged as the feds are using the opportunity to garner power and access to tax dollars, rather than solving a problem

[tanless1]

Encourage clinic benefactors with full or even 80% deductability. Protect the benefactors from malpratice suits as they would be the deep pocket. It would also help the local industry by reducing there major insurance preiums.....and helping the town even more than just providing jobs

[Recyclerz]

The hospitals will be able to charge less as they won't be smotherd with clients, nor will they have the excuse
....

Hospitals have two main problems jacking up their costs - one is covering the uninsured which pushes up the prices on the paying customers; the other is that they are competing with other hospitals (and other providers) for those paying customers leading to the purchase of a lot of superflous fancy medical testing devices. For example, Hospital A buys a MRI machine for a couple of $ million. Drs. start sending their patients to A and doing their surgeries there. Hospital A is doing nicely but Hospital B across town starts losing patients. Hospital B buys its own expensive MRI to regain market share. Now there are two expensive machines that require lots of patients to pay for themselves so the hospitals encourage the Drs. to order more MRIs so that the machines pay for themselves. What is the optimal level of MRIs for the town served by the two hospitals? No one really knows but you can see where this market dynamic pushes up the costs of medical care and insurance. Part of the Obamacare plan is to study various medical protocols and then to see which provide the best results with the lowest costs. You can't pull this off without an entity with broad reach to do it. Really only the Federal Government has the incentive and clout to pull it off.

I've said here before that the only "market-based" plan I've seen coming from the Right that makes any sense is high-deductible insurance policies together with HSA accounts so that patients/consumers shop on price for their medical services. This makes sense on an economic level but my problem with it is that the patient/consumers don't have the knowledge to judge as to what is the appropriate level of medical service so that you are going to have random results as to whether you get well or die. It isn't the same as buying a flatscreen TV.

Enough bloviating for now.

[tanless1]

Does 40k tax free + house and utilities sound reasonable. + student loans paid off in 6 years......some will find they like the communitys.....some will decide to persue a private practice specailty.
I would guess that over half of the office visit cost goes to staff and malpractice ins

[tanless1]

I dissagree recycler.this plan is market based.
Also nothing is stoping the govt from researching costefectivness....don't need single payer to get information.

Hsa's I don't participate in those because if I don't ask for my money back in time, I forefit it....never seemed right to me.

[Pitdoc]

I can't blame pharma for not wanting to deal with these guys, they read the writing on the wall and saw it for european socialism. You let them get there foot in the door and pharma would have been sunk.
I'm looking to give pharma billions in purchases, not 500....but we need them to continue researching, and I'm not willing to cripple the goose just cause I can...

Cost of Researching to Pharma? About 15%

Cost of marketing ( Those big drug ads you see on EVERY news show) ? 35%

They bring it up every time, but it's NEVER about research, its about profit.

[Pitdoc]

Does 40k tax free + house and utilities sound reasonable. + student loans paid off in 6 years......some will find they like the communitys.....some will decide to persue a private practice specailty.
I would guess that over half of the office visit cost goes to staff and malpractice ins

Mostly staff & expenses.Malpractice is about 10-15% of what a doc earns usually ( varies w specialty, but then , those specialties charge more)

[Recyclerz]

....that's the plan, expand that.....it is the solution, and it affordable.

Except it doesn't really address the main problem - really sick people. I have a cousin who was diagnosed with breast cancer at 32 years old. Fortunately, she's still doing pretty well 12 years later. Her care has been really expensive though - multiple surgeries, near constant monitoring, chemotherapy, etc. One particularly effective drug cost $10K per month. Again, fortunately for her, she had and her husband has company provided insurance. Had she not had access to this, or was under your suggested plan, she'd have been dead quite awhile ago I suspect.

I know that you and a lot of others on here think that federal government involvement in your lives is a primary concern in your value system. I understand and respect that but I disagree. While still respecting person freedom and encouraging self-reliance there are certain things we can, and I argue should, do on a communitarian basis in this society and these include ensuring access to nutrition, education and healthcare. I think there is a spectrum of choices on these matters and suspect that the right answer is somewhere in the gray area.

[tanless1]

I think we can increase the number of doctors from the city / county level.....we'll make it easy for them to trasition into private practice when they are through. Prices will drop just for private to compete.

This will greatly ease the burden of uninsured at the hospital level.

Also, hospitals may begin to shrink.

Equipment costs are a concern, i am interested in the life expectancy and refurbishment . This could cut down costs greatly for more rural areas.
...but the plan that has been passed is perfect cover to spend our money on politicians pet projects and then cry poverty for health care requiring more and more taxes, they can't do it, they can't help themselves......social security should of never gone broke just on interest alone, but they put it in the general fund....the same will happen here.
Put our money into theis local program, we'd have a much better shot at making it work....its a program that would continue to build itself.

Your right, we'll talk later

[tanless1]

This is not my complete plan, I was hittin bullet points for underdog. We aren't going to leave your sister out. My plan does not eliminate insurance....it frees them up from picking up the tab for so many uninsured , allowing them to drop premiums to a more affordable Gap style or full. Because we won't be as broke either.
I'm not done , and I don't think I know it all....I think this plan has potentail and doesn't require the irs to confirm your carying ins monthly under penalty of law...
...I think obama and crew took advantage of a crisses partialy caused by them.

Th

[Pitdoc]

I think we can increase the number of doctors from the city / county level.....we'll make it easy for them to trasition into private practice when they are through. Prices will drop just for private to compete.

This will greatly ease the burden of uninsured at the hospital level.

Also, hospitals may begin to shrink.

Equipment costs are a concern, i am interested in the life expectancy and refurbishment . This could cut down costs greatly for more rural areas.
...but the plan that has been passed is perfect cover to spend our money on politicians pet projects and then cry poverty for health care requiring more and more taxes, they can't do it, they can't help themselves......social security should of never gone broke just on interest alone, but they put it in the general fund....the same will happen here.
Put our money into theis local program, we'd have a much better shot at making it work....its a program that would continue to build itself.

Your right, we'll talk later


I work at a "Community Access" hospital. AS such , the state has deemed that , health care being essential for the area, we can bill slightly higher, or get better reimbursements from the state.Expand this on a NATIONAL level . If docs in northern NY earn TWICE the reimbursements that those in NYC & Long Island , then maybe the HUGE discrepancy in docs per patient might change. Same with residencies. More money to train FPs and IMs, and less money to train surgeons, dermatologists, radiologists, etc

[tanless1]

I'm not opposed to comunitarian way, but the real commune comes from the bottom , not from the top like a hammer.
....I don't like to think of it as commuin, but is freeing others to help eachother....blah blah blah.....I got to get to bed, ill come back

[angrymissy]

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F590Ev.png&h=aee692313b8def30fae33f3d9acb18d8

[The Bends]

Next, we should re-distribute students GPA's in our school systems.....

In grade school, high school, college....The students who work harder, earn their high grades, and have a higher GPA.....Will then distribute some of their GPA to those students who aren't working as hard, or getting as good of grades.....So those students with bad GPA's get a little higher...and the students with great GPA's get theirs lowered...because they can afford it...right?

You liberals love punishing those who have earned great success, and have worked hard for it......I wonder what you'd think if it was applied to your GPA's in school....then maybe you idiots would understand the concept, and how wrong it is.......

[Pitdoc]

Next, we should re-distribute students GPA's in our school systems.....

In grade school, high school, college....The students who work harder, earn their high grades, and have a higher GPA.....Will then distribute some of their GPA to those students who aren't working as hard, or getting as good of grades.....So those students with bad GPA's get a little higher...and the students with great GPA's get theirs lowered...because they can afford it...right?

You liberals love punishing those who have earned great success, and have worked hard for it......I wonder what you'd think if it was applied to your GPA's in school....then maybe you idiots would understand the concept, and how wrong it is.......

When it comes to specialties , it isn't about higher grades ,it's simply about who gets in ..There are TOO many residency spots for "specialties" as opposed to what we DO need , IM( Internal Medicine) , and FP ( Family Practice) . Every year , thousands of these residencies have openings.Why ? Because why go into a practice which pays you $80K a year for working 60 hrs a week, when you can get a job which pays you $250K for working 30 hrs a week (I'm thinking radiology ) .I know its Commie liberal thinking , but more people should go into Medicine to HELP people instead of getting rich .And cutting or curtailing some residencies will make sure the right people get into those jobs.

[Syd]

Next, we should re-distribute students GPA's in our school systems.....

In grade school, high school, college....The students who work harder, earn their high grades, and have a higher GPA.....Will then distribute some of their GPA to those students who aren't working as hard, or getting as good of grades.....So those students with bad GPA's get a little higher...and the students with great GPA's get theirs lowered...because they can afford it...right?

Would you rather it so that if people with low GPAs died unnecessarily? Your analogy like your politics are laughably naive.

Liberalism made America, and it's going to continue it. Every time conservatism rears its ugly head we have shit like the Gilded Age. One of these days people will become smart enough not to be so easily influenced when a fairy tale world of affluence is told to await them.

[weekapaugjz]

fairy tale affluence? where do i sign up?

[Syd]

fairy tale affluence? where do i sign up?

Just work hard. You'll be rich because if you work hard, you'll be rich. Reasoning behind it? Who knows, just make sure you don't get sick, injured, laid off or anything else that you have no control over that will likely cause you to dive back into poverty.

Helps if you're white and also male.

[hanso]

No. You keep saying that and you're still wrong.


http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/21/GR2009032100104.gif


Projected Deficit - In the first independent analysis, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office concluded that President Obama's budget would rack up massive deficits even after the economy recovers, forcing the nation to borrow nearly $9.3 trillion over the next decade (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/21/GR2009032100104.html)

As if the magnitude of the numbers wasn't enough, check out the variance between WH vs. CBO. Disturbing.

It's a little old but if anything the situation is now worse.

No I'm not wrong. The real Deficit not projected. 1.4T(Bush) 1.8T (Obama)
.4T now spent with most of that in loans (stimulus recovery).

The right have painted it out as to make it look like the whole real Deficit (1.8T) is on Obama when its not (.4T) most in loans.

[underdog]

You liberals love punishing those who have earned great success, and have worked hard for it.....

Exactly. That's why there are no rich liberals.

[Bob Impact]

Would you rather it so that if people with low GPAs died unnecessarily? Your analogy like your politics are laughably naive.

Liberalism made America, and it's going to continue it. Every time conservatism rears its ugly head we have shit like the Gilded Age. One of these days people will become smart enough not to be so easily influenced when a fairy tale world of affluence is told to await them.

And the Industrial age.

One of these days the people who are the victims at the end of your trail will all actually see it for what it is, and that you need them, not the other way around.

[Syd]

It's a two way street. Business requires workers as much as workers require business.

[Furtherman]

A brilliant article that all those screaming "socialism" and other such nonsense should read, and try to learn something. (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/03/22/obamacare/)

I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

[SonOfSmeagol]

No I'm not wrong. The real Deficit not projected. 1.4T(Bush) 1.8T (Obama)
.4T now spent with most of that in loans (stimulus recovery).

The right have painted it out as to make it look like the whole real Deficit (1.8T) is on Obama when its not (.4T) most in loans.

I can’t say much more if you refuse to accept factual information. The right has “painted” nothing – there’s no need to.

The Budget and Economic Outlook: Fiscal Years 2010 to 2020 (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10871/01-26-Outlook.pdf)

Not only that, but even with your math the .4 T makes no sense. The stimulus will cost .842 T (see above link – up from .787 T) and it was PURE deficit spending under bho in FY09. There was also actually a lot more actual deficit spending under bho in FY09. But anyway, hHow can you possible reconcile that figure with “.4 T”.

[Bob Impact]

It's a two way street. Business requires workers as much as workers require business.

And yet without the business the workers would have nothing to work on.

[Serpico1103]

And yet without the business the workers would have nothing to work on.
Do we need corporations to have businesses? Do corporations need the rights of individuals to do business?

[Syd]

And yet without the business the workers would have nothing to work on.

And yet without the workers the businesses would produce nothing.

[Crispy123]

I can’t say much more if you refuse to accept factual information. The right has “painted” nothing – there’s no need to.

The Budget and Economic Outlook: Fiscal Years 2010 to 2020 (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10871/01-26-Outlook.pdf)

Not only that, but even with your math the .4 T makes no sense. The stimulus will cost .842 T (see above link – up from .787 T) and it was PURE deficit spending under bho in FY09. There was also actually a lot more actual deficit spending under bho in FY09. But anyway, hHow can you possible reconcile that figure with “.4 T”.

[

[SonOfSmeagol]

In reality, if you strip out all the gimmicks and budgetary games and rework the calculus, a wholly different picture emerges: The health care reform legislation would raise, not lower, federal deficits, by $562 billion.
...
As documented in another recent budget office analysis, the federal deficit is already expected to exceed at least $700 billion every year over the next decade, doubling the national debt to more than $20 trillion. By 2020, the federal deficit — the amount the government must borrow to meet its expenses — is projected to be $1.2 trillion, $900 billion of which represents interest on previous debt.

The Real Arithmetic of Health Care Reform - former CBO Director (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html)

In a word: Ouch.

[Syd]

The Real Arithmetic of Health Care Reform - former CBO Director (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html)

In a word: Ouch.

In another word: it ignores the fact that something like 40k+ people die every year needlessly due to lack of healthcare insurance (America has something like 110k preventable mortalities a year, most other civilized countries have more like 60k preventable mortalities a year.)

I know we all must worship corporate interests, but even if you stop 10% of those preventable deaths a year its a pretty good bill.

http://newamerica.net/blog/new-health-dialogue/2009/quality-us-leads-industrialized-world-preventable-deaths-15167

[tanless1]

...what's the percentage on that, corilated to population ?

[SonOfSmeagol]

In another word: it ignores the fact that something like 40k+ people die every year needlessly due to lack of healthcare insurance (America has something like 110k preventable mortalities a year, most other civilized countries have more like 60k preventable mortalities a year.)

I know we all must worship corporate interests, but even if you stop 10% of those preventable deaths a year its a pretty good bill.

http://newamerica.net/blog/new-health-dialogue/2009/quality-us-leads-industrialized-world-preventable-deaths-15167

You know, there are all sorts of reasons for reform, and most people have agreed that it’s needed. It’s just that the harsh reality is that there is a cost-benefit – both to individuals and to the “people” as a whole - and this bill ain’t it.

Ok, don’t want to be too crass here, but...you have said that “saving” 4,000 per year is acceptable. Assuming you accept the numbers then the bill over 10 years will cost $950,000,000,000 (taxes&medicare “savings”) + $562,000,000,000 (deficit spending) = $1,512,000,000,000. To “save” 4,000/yr x 10 yrs = 40,000 total. That’s $37,800,000 per person.

Don’t accuse me of tunnel vision, because you set the stage by playing the “humanitarian” card as some kind of absolute bottom-line reason that this bill is a good thing.

[SonOfSmeagol]

A brilliant article that all those screaming "socialism" and other such nonsense should read, and try to learn something. (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/03/22/obamacare/)

Sorry man, not seeing the “brilliance” at all. It’s more flowery language, trying to stir up the natives, links to similar-thinking blogs and wiki, pointing fingers, circular rationalization, and short on real information. It’s a clever bit of packaging for the hardcore fans, but little else. What’s to “learn”? I do agree with this though:

Obama campaigned on a message of hope and change and bipartisan togetherness, and I think that was a sincere message on his part; but it certainly hasn’t come to pass, and there doesn’t seem to be any indication that it will.

[Syd]

You know, there are all sorts of reasons for reform, and most people have agreed that it’s needed. It’s just that the harsh reality is that there is a cost-benefit – both to individuals and to the “people” as a whole - and this bill ain’t it.

Ok, don’t want to be too crass here, but...you have said that “saving” 4,000 per year is acceptable. Assuming you accept the numbers then the bill over 10 years will cost $950,000,000,000 (taxes&medicare “savings”) + $562,000,000,000 (deficit spending) = $1,512,000,000,000. To “save” 4,000/yr x 10 yrs = 40,000 total. That’s $37,800,000 per person.

Don’t accuse me of tunnel vision, because you set the stage by playing the “humanitarian” card as some kind of absolute bottom-line reason that this bill is a good thing.

That's fine with me. $38m to save a person? Fine with me. That's the difference between you and I. I value all human life.

[SonOfSmeagol]

That's fine with me. $38m to save a person? Fine with me. That's the difference between you and I. I value all human life.

We're more alike than you may think. If I had it, if I thought you had it, if somehow we could come up with it - then I would be all for it. But the sad reality is that we don't. It's untenable.

[Bob Impact]

That's fine with me. $38m to save a person? Fine with me. That's the difference between you and I. I value all human life.

That must make the difference between you and I the fact that I think of all of the things that could be done with $38m.

[Dude!]

I value all human life.

does that include babies?

[Syd]

does that include babies?

It even includes swarthies.

[Furtherman]

Sorry man, not seeing the “brilliance” at all. It’s more flowery language, trying to stir up the natives, links to similar-thinking blogs and wiki, pointing fingers, circular rationalization, and short on real information. It’s a clever bit of packaging for the hardcore fans, but little else. What’s to “learn”? I do agree with this though:

Hardcore fans? What hardcore fans? A rare fair and balanced report on the spread of fear and lies - including a expose of Rush from a fellow conservative commentator, and it seems like a "clever bit of packaging"? You can't comment on the other side of the wall if you never look over and leave it to others to tell you what they see.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Pay up bitches!!!! And you thought only the rich would finance this scheme. Fucking gullible suckers


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/24/healthy-tax-increases-not-only-on-wealthy/

[angrymissy]

Pay up bitches!!!! And you thought only the rich would finance this scheme. Fucking gullible suckers


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/24/healthy-tax-increases-not-only-on-wealthy/

Yeah, I cry for the guidos paying an extra 10% to tan

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yeah, I cry for the guidos paying an extra 10% to tan

You bought the line that those making over 200K would pay.

Nanny state guhb-mint mandating franchises to post calorie counters. Everyone needs Uncle Barry and Auntie Nancy to tell them that a Big Mac has a ton of calories, fat and sodium

[angrymissy]

You bought the line that those making over 200K would pay.

Nanny state guhb-mint mandating franchises to post calorie counters. Everyone needs Uncle Barry and Auntie Nancy to tell them that a Big Mac has a ton of calories, fat and sodium

Payroll taxes aren't going up below 200k/250k. Taxes, besides the tanning tax, are not going up on 200k/250k.

Certain Health Insurance companies (the ones w/ Cadillac plans) are having taxes raised
Med Device companies are having taxes raised
Tanning Tax

McDonalds have been posting calorie counts for years not, and why on Earth would you have a problem with that?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Payroll taxes aren't going up below 200k/250k. Taxes, besides the tanning tax, are not going up on 200k/250k.

Certain Health Insurance companies (the ones w/ Cadillac plans) are having taxes raised
Med Device companies are having taxes raised
Tanning Tax

McDonalds have been posting calorie counts for years not, and why on Earth would you have a problem with that?

Those taxes get passed down to the consumer. Forgot who said it but theres a quote "Corporations dont pay taxes, they collect them"

Common sense says a double quarter pounder with cheese is not as healthy as grilled chicken over romaine lettuce

Going to use that curse word again Personal responsibility

[angrymissy]

Common sense says a double quarter pounder with cheese is not as healthy as grilled chicken over romaine lettuce

So? Why not post the details so consumers can make an informed choice? Out of all the things to get in a tizzy about...

[Recyclerz]

Pay up bitches!!!! And you thought only the rich would finance this scheme. Fucking gullible suckers


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/24/healthy-tax-increases-not-only-on-wealthy/

OMG you're right!! Paying an extra 3.8% on all our dividend income and realized capital gains over $100,000 (over the existing 15% rate) is going to crush everyone on this board. I know I won't be able to buy that second gold shark tank for my country estate for another two months.


There are legitimate philosophical arguments to be made critiquing the HCR law. There are very compelling cases to be made about the need for government to limit entitlement spending programs in the very near future. Why weaken your case by throwing up any sort of claim against Obama/govertment programs whether it makes sense or not? Limbaugh, Beck, et al. get paid nice coin for doing so; unless you are getting paid by the post why don't we all dial it back a bit and have an adult conversation worthy of being an RBI discussion.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So? Why not post the details so consumers can make an informed choice? Out of all the things to get in a tizzy about...

No details are needed..... Do we really need to be told that having corn flakes is healthier than a bacon and egg breakfast burrito?

[Dude!]

No details are needed..... Do we really need to be told that having corn flakes is healthier than a bacon and egg breakfast burrito?

but the burrito is
so delicious

[angrymissy]

No details are needed..... Do we really need to be told that having corn flakes is healthier than a bacon and egg breakfast burrito?

I can tell you when I was dieting, it was incredibly helpful to know the details (calories/fat), so I can track it, and for people with health problems that need to manage the amount of sodium, cholesterol, sugar, etc., they are eating, it's also helpful.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

OMG you're right!! Paying an extra 3.8% on all our dividend income and realized capital gains over $100,000 (over the existing 15% rate) is going to crush everyone on this board. I know I won't be able to buy that second gold shark tank for my country estate for another two months.


There are legitimate philosophical arguments to be made critiquing the HCR law. There are very compelling cases to be made about the need for government to limit entitlement spending programs in the very near future. Why weaken your case by throwing up any sort of claim against Obama/govertment programs whether it makes sense or not? Limbaugh, Beck, et al. get paid nice coin for doing so; unless you are getting paid by the post why don't we all dial it back a bit and have an adult conversation worthy of being an RBI discussion.

Shows how far behind you are. Gold is so 80's!!!!

This scam wasn't needed its going to add another layer onto an already exhausted entitlement system. Lets add trillions more to the already insolvent unfunded liabilities. Its more of a dependence entitlement philosophy in which people need government to hold their hand.

The same crowd who cry "my body is a temple" and other old lines will allow the govt to reach into your pocket.

Does anyone really think they can rake in all this revenue from people making 200k and up? Wishful thinking

[Bob Impact]

So? Why not post the details so consumers can make an informed choice? Out of all the things to get in a tizzy about...

I read the rest of this "debate" but seriously WF, that's an odd one to pick... this so isn't a big deal.

[underdog]

I read the rest of this "debate" but seriously WF, that's an odd one to pick... this so isn't a big deal.

You just described the majority of his posts.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I read the rest of this "debate" but seriously WF, that's an odd one to pick... this so isn't a big deal.

Of course thats not the only thing to be a concern but stack that up with the thousands of other regulations in 2700 pages , it will be a giant clusterfuck just like medicare/aid and SS

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You just described the majority of his posts.

So gullible and naive that you think this will be good for the country.

Tax dollars paying for viagra to rapists and sex offenders, but doesnt pay for abortion. So our tax dollars will go to start pregnancies not end them. There are no statesmen. Just political whores who seek more power. Does Obama Reid and Pelosi care about you or your health they don't give a fuck about you, but many still follow them like a bunch of lemmings

[Serpico1103]

No details are needed..... Do we really need to be told that having corn flakes is healthier than a bacon and egg breakfast burrito?

What exactly is healthy about a bowl of processed sugar?

[foodcourtdruide]

I read the rest of this "debate" but seriously WF, that's an odd one to pick... this so isn't a big deal.

Seriously. Why would you be opposed to giving consumers more information? It's incredibly difficult for a consumer to know what goes into foods at restaurants. As Missy stated, when dieting calorie count is an extremely important thing. I understand conservative deregulation philosophies, but I don't understand anyone that would be against nutritional information. Very odd.

[foodcourtdruide]

No details are needed..... Do we really need to be told that having corn flakes is healthier than a bacon and egg breakfast burrito?

Why are you using extremes? I went to a Nathan's the other day and the caloric count of their french fries is in the THOUSANDS. Do you expect that from french fries? Don't you think Nathan's should inform customers if they're giving them something so insanely unhealthy? McDonald's fries are like half that. Do you think we should all have lab coats and measure french fry calories to decide which restaurant to eat from?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Why are you using extremes? I went to a Nathan's the other day and the caloric count of their french fries is in the THOUSANDS. Do you expect that from french fries? Don't you think Nathan's should inform customers if they're giving them something so insanely unhealthy? McDonald's fries are like half that. Do you think we should all have lab coats and measure french fry calories to decide which restaurant to eat from?

Did you order a jumbo size fries? Also combine the starch cooked in all that deep fried oil add some salt content and boom!! THERE ARE YOUR CALORIES!!! IT DOESNT TAKE A FUCKING MEDICAL DEGREE!!!!!

Shows that you need mommy gov't to hold your hand because you cant make informed decisions on your own.

[foodcourtdruide]

Did you order a jumbo size fries? Also combine the starch cooked in all that deep fried oil add some salt content and boom!! THERE ARE YOUR CALORIES!!! IT DOESNT TAKE A FUCKING MEDICAL DEGREE!!!!!

You did not read what I posted, or you did not understand it. I'm not going to blame you for that, but I must admit it's frustrating talking to you. You CONSTANTLY argue points people do not make.

My point was that the Nathan's french fries are MUCH more unhealthy than McDonald's fries, according to their calories posted at the store, and it would have been difficult to know that unless they were forced to show their calories.

A customer can now factor in calories count when choosing a meal. I do not understand AT ALL how that's a bad thing.

[Furtherman]

WF loves fries.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You did not read what I posted, or you did not understand it. I'm not going to blame you for that, but I must admit it's frustrating talking to you. You CONSTANTLY argue points people do not make.

My point was that the Nathan's french fries are MUCH more unhealthy than McDonald's fries, according to their calories posted at the store, and it would have been difficult to know that unless they were forced to show their calories.

A customer can now factor in calories count when choosing a meal. I do not understand AT ALL how that's a bad thing.

Anything deep fried is unhealthy. Thats my point. No medical school is needed to come up to that conclusion.

Burger King flame Broils their food but a loaded steakhouse whopper isnt a healthy alternative to a big mac

[foodcourtdruide]

Anything deep fried is unhealthy. Thats my point. No medical school is needed to come up to that conclusion.

Burger King flame Broils their food but a loaded steakhouse whopper isnt a healthy alternative to a big mac

So you don't understand how or why a customer may choose another place to eat at if it means consuming half of the calories? And you don't understand the value of this knowledge to the customer?

Again, this is the argument I'm trying to have. I'm glad that you know that deep fried food is unhealthy, but that is off-topic.

[underdog]

So gullible and naive that you think this will be good for the country.

You always act like you know my opinion. I don't think I've ever given my opinion on politics on this board, I just try to rile you up.

[Serpico1103]

Did you order a jumbo size fries? Also combine the starch cooked in all that deep fried oil add some salt content and boom!! THERE ARE YOUR CALORIES!!! IT DOESNT TAKE A FUCKING MEDICAL DEGREE!!!!!

Shows that you need mommy gov't to hold your hand because you cant make informed decisions on your own.

I know you think you want a free market, but you have no concept of what that entails. A free market requires *REQUIRES* perfect information to work, so a consumer can make an informed choice.

Is the producer of product A paying better wages than product B, are they externalizing their costs to artificially lower their costs? Is product A actually better than product B so while more expensive, it is actually a better value?

SO, relax your "mommy government" nonsense and realize that for your free market to work, there needs to be information.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So you don't understand how or why a customer may choose another place to eat at if it means consuming half of the calories? And you don't understand the value of this knowledge to the customer?

Again, this is the argument I'm trying to have. I'm glad that you know that deep fried food is unhealthy, but that is off-topic.

A customer should already know that a turkey sandwich from subway has less calories sodium, fat, etc than a big mac. I dont need someone telling me that.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I know you think you want a free market, but you have no concept of what that entails. A free market requires *REQUIRES* perfect information so a consumer can make an informed choice.

Is the producer of product A paying better wages than product B, are they externalizing their costs to artificially lower their costs? Is product A actually better than product B so while more expensive, it is actually a better value?

SO, relax your "mommy government" nonsense and realize that for your free market to work, there needs to be information.

Free market is such a cliche.

Mogadishu is a free market

[foodcourtdruide]

A customer should already know that a turkey sandwich from subway has less calories sodium, fat, etc than a big mac. I dont need someone telling me that.

OH MY GOD

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF FOOD. THESE ARE BOTH FRENCH FRIES.

I give up. I give up. I give up. I give up. I give up. I give up.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

OH MY GOD

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF FOOD. THESE ARE BOTH FRENCH FRIES.

I give up. I give up. I give up. I give up. I give up. I give up.

FRENCH FRIES ARE FATTENING!!!!!!!!!!

[foodcourtdruide]

WRESTLINGFAN has won the debate. Congratulations. Please make that my modquote. I'm going to agree with him 100% for now on. underdog, serpico, furtherman.. I hate you all.