National Health Care Debate

[conman823]

My first and biggest issue with this *New* Improved Healthcare system is a simple one. Can't we just focus on one major issue at a time?

Aren't we still figuring out the whole shitty economy thing? Can't we wait a few more years to get into the whole Healthcare issue? My whole life the wheels of Government have moved slow, and now I made to believe it's warp speed.

It just seems like someone rifiled through my pockets for Bailout money for CEO's, now I haven't even gotten results for that and I'm going back into my pockets for some Healthcare money.

Is this getting rushed through because the Dem's are worried about being ousted midterm?

[LordJezo]

THATS WHAT THEY ARE FUCKING DOING.

No they aren't, they are using their law making abilities to consolidate power into the hands of the elite few in order to control even more aspects of our daily life. We have been warned for years that they would be doing this, and now its out in the open. People refuse to see the way the globalists are prepping us for total global rule and law.

[A.J.]

Abstinence only works!

I'm doing my part!

[Jujubees2]

Abstinence only works!

I'm doing my part!

My wife is making sure I do my part!

[The Jays]

No they aren't, they are using their law making abilities to consolidate power into the hands of the elite few in order to control even more aspects of our daily life. We have been warned for years that they would be doing this, and now its out in the open. People refuse to see the way the globalists are prepping us for total global rule and law.

What the fuck exactly is the benefit for them to have total power over us? I've always wondered that.

Oh and anyone can get healthcare by walking up to a clinic/hospital taking federal funds and asking for treatment, they have to treat you then most place write that cost off later.

Bull-fucking-shit. Am I supposed to read up on which hospitals are taking funds before I go to them? I've been to the public hospital in my hometown, I got treated, and then I got sent a bill for a several hundred bucks. That's how the system works.

[HBox]

Bull-fucking-shit. Am I supposed to read up on which hospitals are taking funds before I go to them? I've been to the public hospital in my hometown, I got treated, and then I got sent a bill for a several hundred bucks. That's how the system works.

Exactly. We don't let people die in the streets........ but we decimate them financially.

[foodcourtdruide]

No they aren't, they are using their law making abilities to consolidate power into the hands of the elite few in order to control even more aspects of our daily life. We have been warned for years that they would be doing this, and now its out in the open. People refuse to see the way the globalists are prepping us for total global rule and law.

According to who? The guy you do crunches with?

Also, I believe in globes. Would that make me a globalist?

[The Jays]

Exactly. We don't let people die in the streets........ but we decimate them financially.

I love this quote I read today on Crooks and Liars, when reflecting on the 40th anniversary of the moon landing.

40 years ago we were a nation that spent billions of dollars on the crap shoot of putting three men on top of 3,200 tons of hellfire wrapped in an aluminum skin and firing the whole thing at a dead rock 240,000 miles away because our destiny demanded it.

40 years later we are a nation that will not spend billions to keep its 300 million citizens alive, healthy and productive because the insurance industry lobbyists who own our politicians forbid it.

[Syd]

Aren't we still figuring out the whole shitty economy thing? Can't we wait a few more years to get into the whole Healthcare issue? My whole life the wheels of Government have moved slow, and now I made to believe it's warp speed.

Healthcare reform cuts overhead for businesses operating in the United States -- it goes hand in hand with the Keynesian approach to recessions.

[LordJezo]

What the fuck exactly is the benefit for them to have total power over us? I've always wondered that.

That's one flaw I have found in the whole global agenda argument. What are they going to do with the planet once they achieve their population reduction goals. It usually comes into reptiles and inter dimensional species. But that's only on the far out there end of stuff where they plan on killing all of us.

But them getting power over us now in a real world situation gives them more money and a slave race to do everything for them. Like Kim Jong Ill.

[Zorro]

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=3014e950a92dbb0f7e066f9e088a301f&tab=core&tabmode=list&cck=1&au=&ck=

It's real!

[The Jays]

I dunno, call me crazy, but the easiest way to make lots of money is to run a good business with a product or service needed. I wouldn't spend all that money on law and poli sci degrees just on the hopes that a majority of congressman get elected that will side with me in my dream of taking over the world.

[LordJezo]

I dunno, call me crazy, but the easiest way to make lots of money is to run a good business with a product or service needed. I wouldn't spend all that money on law and poli sci degrees just on the hopes that a majority of congressman get elected that will side with me in my dream of taking over the world.

The majority of congressmen are not elected with the dream of taking over the world. The globalists are way above them and are not elected by anyone. They are the ones pulling the strings. Most of what we see is just a smokescreen for what is happening on levels of power that we cannot even comprehend.

[The Jays]

So, wouldn't part of those globalists be the health care lobby which is afraid of this health care plan?

[LordJezo]

So, wouldn't part of those globalists be the health care lobby which is afraid of this health care plan?

Either they are not part of the true world plan and are fighting a battle which cannot be won (which we all know it can't, Obama(globalists) wants healthcare so we are getting healthcare), or they are a simple manipulation to make people think there is outrage in order to mask the ease at which this will this plan is going to have. Having no resistance is more suspicious than having a few people try to fight it off.

[epo]

Is this getting rushed through because the Dem's are worried about being ousted midterm?

I would guess this is being done for a couple of reasons:

1. If they don't do it, then they didn't deliver on the "change" promise.
2. Its a unique window in time. How often will a political party have a filibuster-proof Senate?

[The Jays]

Either they are not part of the true world plan and are fighting a battle which cannot be won (which we all know it can't, Obama(globalists) wants healthcare so we are getting healthcare), or they are a simple manipulation to make people think there is outrage in order to mask the ease at which this will this plan is going to have. Having no resistance is more suspicious than having a few people try to fight it off.

Ok. I'll accept that. Now, in your honest opinion, how long until someone scratches one of these globalists' faces and reveals them to be the alien lizard people that you and I know them to be?

[epo]

The majority of congressmen are not elected with the dream of taking over the world. The globalists are way above them and are not elected by anyone. They are the ones pulling the strings. Most of what we see is just a smokescreen for what is happening on levels of power that we cannot even comprehend.

Wait until you see my global plan for mandatory fake poo in 2011!

[TripleSkeet]

Solution- Over 80, you only get a minimum of health-care. If you need more, pay out of pocket, no insurance or medicaid should be allowed to cover it.
Too much money is spent keeping vegetables lying in an overcrowded hospital because people can't let go.

I actually agree with this.

[keithy_19]

The problem with health care is lawsuits and insurance. They go hand in hand. Fix that.

[epo]

The problem with health care is lawsuits and insurance. They go hand in hand. Fix that.

Medical malpractice is the worst talking point ever created by a political hack. It has very little to do with overall cost.

Insurance on the other hand is an issue.

[Ogre]

I ask here too: Please do not group all republicans and/or conservatives together. I am a progressive conservative (like a moderate democrat) and I have nothing in common with these neo-con bull shit artists. Just read my posts.

Bro I have. I am the Dinosaur. It was a bad joke. They should make me marry a Carribean Queen or walk the plank into the Billy Ocean.

We probably share many of the same views.

[Serpico1103]

Medical malpractice is the worst talking point ever created by a political hack. It has very little to do with overall cost.

Insurance on the other hand is an issue.

I would put it a close second behind, "They hate our freedom." If that qualifies as a talking point.

California reformed malpractice insurance by reforming the insurance companies. Caps did not work. Insurance companies simply paid out less, but still kept raising premiums.

[conman823]

I would guess this is being done for a couple of reasons:

1. If they don't do it, then they didn't deliver on the "change" promise.
2. Its a unique window in time. How often will a political party have a filibuster-proof Senate?

Change takes time. At least it used to. Now its done overnight with total Political Domination.

Still I gotta think its all moving too fast and it will come back to haunt Obama.

[badmonkey]

I would guess this is being done for a couple of reasons:

1. If they don't do it, then they didn't deliver on the "change" promise.
2. Its a unique window in time. How often will a political party have a filibuster-proof Senate?

If it's such a great idea and it's going to be so wonderful for the country, then why do they need a filibuster-proof majority in order to ram it down our throats?

Medical malpractice is the worst talking point ever created by a political hack. It has very little to do with overall cost.

Insurance on the other hand is an issue.

I would put it a close second behind, "They hate our freedom." If that qualifies as a talking point.

California reformed malpractice insurance by reforming the insurance companies. Caps did not work. Insurance companies simply paid out less, but still kept raising premiums.


Medical malpractice insurance is a talking point? Medical malpractice insurance is extremely expensive. My dad pays 250,000/yr in malpractice insurance. Where do you think he gets the money to pay for that?

California is a fantastic example of a government that's broken. If we use California as an example of how to do everything, we can each have our very own government printed Federal IOU every April.

[keithy_19]

The health care overhauls released to date would increase, not reduce, the burgeoning long-term health costs facing the government, Congressional Budget Office Director Douglas Elmendorf said Thursday.

http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=5&docID=news-000003168293

[The Jays]

From the same article...

Elmendorf said that CBO has not completed its evaluation of the House plan, but what it has seen so far does not represent “the sort of fundamental change, the order of magnitude necessary to offset the direct increase in federal health costs from the insurance coverage proposals.”

Now, from this...

http://speaker.house.gov/blog/?p=1872

July 17, 2009

Washington, D.C. — The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) released estimates this evening confirming for the first time that H.R. 3200, America’s Affordable Health Choices Act, is deficit neutral over the 10-year budget window - and even produces a $6 billion surplus. CBO estimated more than $550 billion in gross Medicare and Medicaid savings. More importantly, the bill includes a comprehensive array of delivery reforms to set the stage for lowering the future growth in health care costs.

Net Medicare and Medicaid savings of $465 billion, coupled with the $583 billion revenue package reported today by the House Committee on Ways and Means, fully finance the previously estimated $1.042 trillion cost of reform, which will provide affordable health care coverage for 97% of Americans.

“This fulfills the strong commitment of the President and House leadership to enact health reform on a deficit-neutral basis,” said Chairmen Henry A. Waxman, Chairman Charles B. Rangel, and Chairman George Miller. “The reforms included in this legislation will help control health care costs and expand access to quality, affordable coverage to all Americans in fiscally-responsible manner.”

The estimates also cover important reinvestments in Medicare and Medicaid, including phasing in the closing of the “donut” hole in the Medicare drug benefit. The bill’s long-term reform of Medicare’s physician fee schedule to eliminate the potential 21 percent cut in fees, and put payments on a sustainable basis for the future, will cost about $245 billion. Those costs, however, are not included in the net calculations above, as they will be absorbed under the upcoming statutory “pay go” legislation that is pending in the House.

[The Jays]

Word, son.

[Serpico1103]

Medical malpractice insurance is a talking point? Medical malpractice insurance is extremely expensive. My dad pays 250,000/yr in malpractice insurance. Where do you think he gets the money to pay for that?



I'll assume your Dad makes over 250K than.

Tort reform as the answer for high malpractice insurance is a talking point.
Major corporations push for tort reform so they can act poorly without having to answer for it. Let's do away with all lawsuits. Then, I'll start selling copyrighted and patented material out of the trunk of my car. I am sure corporations will understand that suing me is not the answer.

[HBox]

If it's such a great idea and it's going to be so wonderful for the country, then why do they need a filibuster-proof majority in order to ram it down our throats?

Because only great ideas get broad support, like The Iraq War or the Patriot Act.

[The Jays]

If it's such a great idea and it's going to be so wonderful for the country, then why do they need a filibuster-proof majority in order to ram it down our throats?


Because the Republican side is made up of brainless zombies.

[badmonkey]

Because only great ideas get broad support, like The Iraq War or the Patriot Act.

Speaking of talking points... you might want to check the date and get the newest version of yours.

[foodcourtdruide]

Speaking of talking points... you might want to check the date and get the newest version of yours.

That's not fair. His point was relevant to the debate.

[The Jays]

OH SNAP! You just got served! He said, pfft, those Republican deficit boondoggles are so 5 years ago, those are like so totally paid for and contribute nothing to current deficit.

[badmonkey]

OH SNAP! You just got served! He said, pfft, those Republican deficit boondoggles are so 5 years ago, those are like so totally paid for and contribute nothing to current deficit.

Iraq was not a republican mistake. The current secretary of state was one of the strongest voices in favor of that war. I'm sure that her husband probably helped her come to the conclusion that Saddam needed to be removed. You can keep thinking that it's all because the republicans lied to her, but that's just ridiculous crap. You can watch her defend her vote in a short meeting with Code Pink. If you haven't seen it, I'll be happy to dig it up for you.

The Patriot Act was passed without being read and instead of learning from that mistake, the democrats are now adding hundreds of pages to legislation the night before it's voted on without having read the first thousand pages either.

The republican deficit boondoggles? Obama and his democratic congress have in under 6 months allocated more money to be spent than all 8 years of the Bush administration combined. The same people bitching about how much money Bush spent are now praising Obama for out of control spending that so far hasn't done anything to fix the problems he says he's addressing.

[The Jays]

The difference is that Bush spent money on bullshit and wars. Obama is trying to fix a recession, health care, and energy independence. Yeah, in 6 months, you can't see the results of all that given that, it's only been 6 months.

[The Jays]

Oh yeah, check out that link above. CBO says the house plan will be deficit neutral over the next 10 years, even producing a surplus. And at what price? Oh no, providing health care for everyone in the US!!! Increasing the taxes of the top 2%?? Oh nos!!!

So.... yeah... word, son.

[epo]

Iraq was not a republican mistake.

I'm sorry, I couldn't read anything past that ridiculous statement. You've officially lost all credibility with me.

[badmonkey]

The difference is that Bush spent money on bullshit and wars. Obama is trying to fix a recession, health care, and energy independence. Yeah, in 6 months, you can't see the results of all that given that, it's only been 6 months.

Oh yeah, check out that link above. CBO says the house plan will be deficit neutral over the next 10 years, even producing a surplus. And at what price? Oh no, providing health care for everyone in the US!!! Increasing the taxes of the top 2%?? Oh nos!!!

So.... yeah... word, son.

Every situation he's thrown money at has only gotten worse. When he is shown that what he's doing isn't working, his response is "We didn't realize it was this bad." It's no worse than it was under Carter, yet he's running around saying it's the worst since the great depression. If he's overestimating how bad it is and his efforts are not fixing it, then he's doing something wrong. All the projections of his administration have been wrong so far and he has ignored the Congressional Budget Office, who has so far been right on his stimulus plan doing the opposite of fixing the economy.

His 800Billion+ stimulus bill was him spending money on bullshit. No jobs have been created. No help has been given to small businesses. The govt is still standing in the way of jobs. He wants to spend more for healthcare and they're talking about another stimulus. If he really wanted to stimulate the economy, he'd dump the payroll tax for a month so we all had extra money to spend. He takes more money so that he can spend it. Removing money from the economy is the opposite of stimulus.

His cap and trade energy policy makes energy more expensive, which hurts the poor more than anybody since they're the ones struggling to pay their bills already. It will punish states that depend on nuclear or hydroelectric power because those aren't on the "approved" power source list.

Once the public healthcare option is available, I think most companies will drop their healthcare benefits. It might save some jobs at the company due to saving some money. The CBO also says that it leaves "12million non-elderly without health insurance". That's not "everyone in the US!!!"

Cutting corporate taxes would stimulate the economy too since they could spend the money on employees and expansion. We're the ones paying the corporate taxes anyway.

I disagree with what Obama and the democratic leadership are doing for the reasons stated above and not because some conservative talking head told me that's how I should think.

Do you put down the pom poms for the dance routines or just when the choreography requires it?

[hanso]

More than 60 percent of bankruptcies are from medical bills.
Google this ^ and see for yourself. Many news reports listed.

Seems easy enough one should help the other. And the over all economy as well.

[badmonkey]

I'm sorry, I couldn't read anything past that ridiculous statement. You've officially lost all credibility with me.

If you had, you'd have realized that I meant it wasn't a republican ONLY mistake. Plenty of people you voted for voted for that war and not because "they were lied to."

That's ok epo. You lost credibility with me long ago. Fuck you. :)

[badmonkey]

More than 60 percent of bankruptcies are from medical bills.
Google this ^ and see for yourself. Many news reports listed.

Seems easy enough one should help the other. And the over all economy as well.

Putting the govt in between me and my doctor might save me from bankruptcy, but it wont keep me alive.

[scottinnj]

Fuck you. :)

Easy fellas. Let's remember we're all united in our total distaste for French shemales. Stay focused now.

[scottinnj]

BTW, do any of you really believe it's just going to be the top 2% paying for national health care?

A show of hands please!

[epo]

If you had, you'd have realized that I meant it wasn't a republican ONLY mistake. Plenty of people you voted for voted for that war and not because "they were lied to."

That's ok epo. You lost credibility with me long ago. Fuck you. :)

So you are in here bitching about everything from the stimulus, to cap & trade, to the Iraq War...but not really wanting to discuss issues with people on the board.

The mere fact that you are even a sub-forum moderator of anything on this site is a fucking joke.

[The Jays]

That's ok epo. You lost credibility with me long ago. Fuck you. :)

No need for that. You can repeat your Republican talking points without the attacks.

[badmonkey]

No need for that. You can repeat your Republican talking points without the attacks.

Sorry, did you feel left out? Fuck you too.

[scottinnj]

Fuck you too.

OOOOH!


You gonna take that Jays?

[The Jays]

Sorry, did you feel left out? Fuck you too.

Were you on the debate team in school?

[epo]

BTW, do any of you really believe it's just going to be the top 2% paying for national health care?

A show of hands please!

Scott there is so much that isn't being discussed about this issue that really disappoints me. I'll start a list:

1. Increased quality lowers cost.
2. Insurance companies have been pushing cost to the detriment of overall quality.
3. As a nation we need to publicly talk about the population models (i.e.: Baby Boomers) and how decreasing the expenses of Medicare is mandatory to our survival.
4. Let's talk about the jobs that have left the country because of existing health care costs.
5. Let's talk about how people don't know how to properly use health care, driving up costs.
6. Let's talk about how people don't property maintain themselves driving up costs.
7. Let's talk about how denying access to primary/preventative medicine to the under/un-insured causes greater ailments which actually drive up costs.

This is what drives me nuts about the lack of grown-up discourse in this country.

[The Jays]

epo, what are you doing , trying to elevate the quality of this discussion of national health care? We've moved on already. We are currently debating the merits of "fuck you" as an alternative to providing health coverage for Americans.

[scottinnj]

1. Increased quality lowers cost.

Agreed, but I dont see how NHC will increase quality. However, if there is a push for preventative care, I'd love to see that

2. Insurance companies have been pushing cost to the detriment of overall quality.

Agreed, but so has Medicare.

3. As a nation we need to publicly talk about the population models (i.e.: Baby Boomers) and how decreasing the expenses of Medicare is mandatory to our survival.

Less paperwork, less bureaucracy.

4. Let's talk about the jobs that have left the country because of existing health care costs.

I've never heard this. I've always know it to be because of labor costs and tax free havens overseas. Honestly, I've never heard this argument before.

5. Let's talk about how people don't know how to properly use health care, driving up costs.

Okay.

6. Let's talk about how people don't property maintain themselves driving up costs.

People aren't cars, so I'm hoping you're not talking about mandatory diets and other unfun things

7. Let's talk about how denying access to primary/preventative medicine to the under/un-insured causes greater ailments which actually drive up costs.

I think this ties in with point 5, because I thought of this while reading that.

This is what drives me nuts about the lack of grown-up discourse in this country.

Here! Here!

Let's not get distracted anyone!

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/CLASS/182-182~Varga-Girl-Posters.jpg

[BinaryTaoist]

I haven't read any of the previous post on this thread but my opinion is this: If you have the freedom to eat & drink corn syrup and hydrogenated oil every day, as well as smoke to your hearts content; why should I have to carry the burden for the poor lifestyle choices that YOU made? Fuck off with universal healthcare... maybe when technology makes it feasible but right now it only infringes on my personal liberties...


Fuck if we are going to socialize anything it should be access to internet and energy...

[epo]

1. Increased quality lowers cost.

Agreed, but I dont see how NHC will increase quality. However, if there is a push for preventative care, I'd love to see that

2. Insurance companies have been pushing cost to the detriment of overall quality.

Agreed, but so has Medicare.



I'll try to add some facts to this one, as I must disagree with you. This is the one thing that our government did figure out awhile ago. In fact CMS/Premier (Centers for Medicare Services) made quality reporting mandatory for all facilties that accept federal dollars.

To that extent, they have developed "Pay for performance (http://www.cms.hhs.gov/HospitalQualityInits/35_hospitalpremier.asp)" measurements for facilities for reaching quality benchmarks.

To cross-reference that, the Thomson-Reuters organization (http://www.thomsonreuters.com/products_services/healthcare/?view=Standard)monitors quality/cost and delivers "100 Top (http://www.100tophospitals.com/)" Awards to facilities who excel in delivering high quality & low cost and next month will be delivering awards next month to the top "systems" in the nation.

Insurance does nothing to incentivize this type of active and quite frankly its crazy.

[keithy_19]

2. Insurance companies have been pushing cost to the detriment of overall quality.

Agreed, but so has Medicare.



http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/CLASS/182-182~Varga-Girl-Posters.jpg

Medicare is garbage. I have family in the field and people are left to suffer because of Medicare.

I left the picture to bring us back together. Here here, Scott.

[epo]

Medicare is garbage. I have family in the field and people are left to suffer because of Medicare.

I left the picture to bring us back together. Here here, Scott.

Please clarify your "family in the field" and "People are left to suffer".

[HBox]

Medicare is garbage. I have family in the field and people are left to suffer because of Medicare.

I left the picture to bring us back together. Here here, Scott.

I have Medicare and it's been fine.

[keithy_19]

Please clarify your "family in the field" and "People are left to suffer".

An ambulance company. If a person is able to walk to the ambulance they don't get any Medicare coverage.

A neighbor had a wound that wouldn't heal. He was going to a wound center for treatment. Medicare stopped paying for his transportation and his wound care because he wasn't deemed 'unhealthy' enough. The wound got infected and he died two weeks ago.

[The Jays]

An ambulance company. If a person is able to walk to the ambulance they don't get any Medicare coverage.



http://www.medicareinteractive.org/page2.php?topic=counselor&page=script&slide_id=1246

If it is an emergency Medicare will generally cover ambulance services, as long as:
An ambulance is the only safe way to transport you (medically necessary); and
You are transported to and from certain locations.
If it is not an emergency, Medicare coverage of ambulance services is very limited.
An emergency is when your health is in serious danger and every second counts to prevent your health from getting worse. If the trip is scheduled as a way to transport you from one location to another when your health is not in immediate danger, it is not considered an emergency.

Note: Medicare will never pay for ambulette services.

[keithy_19]

http://www.medicareinteractive.org/page2.php?topic=counselor&page=script&slide_id=1246

He couldn't sit in a car because the wound was on his leg which had to be elevated. Basically, he was bed ridden.

And then someone better tell all those people who are required to take an ambulance from nursing homes that they should have to pay.

[epo]

He couldn't sit in a car because the wound was on his leg which had to be elevated. Basically, he was bed ridden.

And then someone better tell all those people who are required to take an ambulance from nursing homes that they should have to pay.

So here is my question for you Keithy...In this thread you've complained about the potential costs of health care and you've complained about the lack of services of the current system. Which is more important? And who draws that line?

[west milly Tom]

The simple fact of the matter is that the government is incapable and constitutionally barred from nationalizing any business. I recognize the need for health care reform. My aunt who did not have insurance was diagnosed with breast cancer at stage one. She was in full stage 3 and on death's door before she
received any treatment. I spoke with her recently about the matter. She was very unhappy with how she was treated. She was a miracle case and lived after a mastectomey. Even she, a democrat with a phd, thinks national health care is a very bad idea. Its costs are limitless and force a population to rely on the government for something that was never intended in the social compact. Do I like free stuff, sure. Do I take when I don't need, sometimes. Should I submit my life to the endless cycle of idiots in Washington, I submit that I should not, nor will I. Luckily it looks like midterm elections are goint to slow homey's roll a bit. Ut appears that "change" will cost the democrats a few seats in both the house in the senate. Preliminary estimates show republicans strongly threatening six seats in the senate already.

[hanso]

All other major nations have it.
But somehow this one can't handle it?

[west milly Tom]

All other major nations have it.
But somehow this one can't handle it?



Which major nation has the highest income per kapita? Which major nation has the highest life expectency? Which country is truly the most free on the planet? We export our national success, not import other nations failures.

[HBox]

The simple fact of the matter is that the government is incapable and constitutionally barred from nationalizing any business. I recognize the need for health care reform. My aunt who did not have insurance was diagnosed with breast cancer at stage one. She was in full stage 3 and on death's door before she
received any treatment. I spoke with her recently about the matter. She was very unhappy with how she was treated. She was a miracle case and lived after a mastectomey. Even she, a democrat with a phd, thinks national health care is a very bad idea. Its costs are limitless and force a population to rely on the government for something that was never intended in the social compact. Do I like free stuff, sure. Do I take when I don't need, sometimes. Should I submit my life to the endless cycle of idiots in Washington, I submit that I should not, nor will I. Luckily it looks like midterm elections are goint to slow homey's roll a bit. Ut appears that "change" will cost the democrats a few seats in both the house in the senate. Preliminary estimates show republicans strongly threatening six seats in the senate already.

Why do I have to keep on saying this: THEY AREN'T TALKING ABOUT NATIONALIZING HEALTH CARE.

And a lot could change in a year and a half but Democrats look like they will, if anything, gain more seats in the Senate. 4 of the top 5 most competitive seats are currently held by Republicans. (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/07/senate-rankings-july-2009-edition.html)

[HBox]

Which major nation has the highest income per kapita? Which major nation has the highest life expectency? Which country is truly the most free on the planet? We export our national success, not import other nations failures.

1. Luxembourg

2. Japan

3. Debatable

[keithy_19]

So here is my question for you Keithy...In this thread you've complained about the potential costs of health care and you've complained about the lack of services of the current system. Which is more important? And who draws that line?

Medicare is an example of a government funded health entity. It's obviously flawed.

I would say the cost is more important at this juncture.

[west milly Tom]

1. Luxembourg

2. Japan

3. Debatable



I didn't know Luxembourg was a major nation. I should read more. Also according to the WHO of the major nations considered Americans have the longest life expectancy. Fucking Luxembourg, eat a dick.

Population *-* 2009*estimate 493,509

[HBox]

I didn't know Luxembourg was a major nation. I should read more. Also according to the WHO of the major nations considered Americans have the longest life expectancy. Fucking Luxembourg, eat a dick.

When did you hear that from the WHO, 1965? Earlier in the thread a link was posted to current life expectancies by nation and we are nowhere near the top and haven't been since I remember.

And no matter how you look at it we aren't tops in income either. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita)

[HBox]

Medicare is an example of a government funded health entity. It's obviously flawed.

I would say the cost is more important at this juncture.

No, it obviously isn't. Just because something is government run doesn't mean its flawed.

[keithy_19]

No, it obviously isn't. Just because something is government run doesn't mean its flawed.

So the people who aren't getting treatment because medicare doesn't deem it 'serious' are expendable?

There are things that it shouldn't pay for. But as stated before, not paying for wound care led to someones death. There is something wrong with that.

[keithy_19]

No, it obviously isn't. Just because something is government run doesn't mean its flawed.

And you're right that not every government run agency is flawed. But medicare is.

[The Jays]

Which major nation has the highest income per kapita? Which major nation has the highest life expectency? Which country is truly the most free on the planet? We export our national success, not import other nations failures.


No one can win with you. When you say major, the only one you want to say is the US. But major has shit to do with it. If you're a country and you have a certain statistical rate, you can't be dismissed because they don't meet west milly tom's standards. Luxembourg has the highest income per capita, Macau has the highest life expectancy, followed by Japan. Which country is the most free? I'd say Somalia, since they have no fucking rules.

[The Jays]

So the people who aren't getting treatment because medicare doesn't deem it 'serious' are expendable?

There are things that it shouldn't pay for. But as stated before, not paying for wound care led to someones death. There is something wrong with that.

This story you're telling has to have more to it. If anything, he should have been able to get emergency treatment and at the very least be billed, in which he'd prob have to file bankruptcy but none the less, if he was dying, he should have been taken to the emergency room by someone. Someone other than the government dropped the ball in his care.

[west milly Tom]

No one can win with you. When you say major, the only one you want to say is the US. But major has shit to do with it. If you're a country and you have a certain statistical rate, you can't be dismissed because they don't meet west milly tom's standards. Luxembourg has the highest income per capita, Macau has the highest life expectancy, followed by Japan. Which country is the most free? I'd say Somalia, since they have no fucking rules.



I think you've skewed from the debate. First, it is clear what marks a major nation and none of the aforementioned are withe the exception of Japan and then even they are only a major economically. WE are their defense structure. And secondly, why, simply stated, do you feel that national health care would improve our society? What is the plus side here?

[Serpico1103]

I think you've skewed from the debate. First, it is clear what marks a major nation and none of the aforementioned are withe the exception of Japan and then even they are only a major economically. WE are their defense structure. And secondly, why, simply stated, do you feel that national health care would improve our society? What is the plus side here?

Define "major?" Japan, Germany, France, Israel, Italy, Spain, Greece, UK, South Korea, and others all rank ahead of us according to the CIA.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

[The Jays]

We're not talking about nationalized health care. We're talking about a public plan which will compete with private plans in order to bring down costs and to bring health care to more people. You ask what is the plus side to having that? Seriously? Do you just believe that those who make the most money should get health care? That people who have an awful medical tragedy come upon them get bankrupted because they can't afford to pay the bills? You tell me that those that have some tragic fucking condition afflict them and they don't have insurance, that those people should just go fuck themselves because our system is good the way it is, I'd like you to tell me that.

[Serpico1103]

Cutting corporate taxes would stimulate the economy too since they could spend the money on employees and expansion. We're the ones paying the corporate taxes anyway.


Wah, corporations pay taxes. Most major corporations don't pay any taxes, let alone a heavy burden of taxes. Besides, there is no proof that tax rates effect economic growth; either by raising or lowering them.

I haven't read any of the previous post on this thread but my opinion is this: If you have the freedom to eat & drink corn syrup and hydrogenated oil every day, as well as smoke to your hearts content; why should I have to carry the burden for the poor lifestyle choices that YOU made? Fuck off with universal healthcare... maybe when technology makes it feasible but right now it only infringes on my personal liberties...


You are doing that already with health insurance. I agree people should be responsible for there health habits, but universal health will not be any different in that respect than health insurance.

[epo]

I think you've skewed from the debate. First, it is clear what marks a major nation and none of the aforementioned are withe the exception of Japan and then even they are only a major economically. WE are their defense structure. And secondly, why, simply stated, do you feel that national health care would improve our society? What is the plus side here?

So you agree that our nation devotes too much of its revenue on the military while giving other nations a free ride. This imbalance causes the United States to ignore social ills which other nations have the ability to address because of said imbalance.

How do we fix that?

[Serpico1103]

So you agree that our nation devotes too much of its revenue on the military while giving other nations a free ride. This imbalance causes the United States to ignore social ills which other nations have the ability to address because of said imbalance.

How do we fix that?

We need the world's largest army to prevent the spread of communism. HIPPIE!

[HBox]

So the people who aren't getting treatment because medicare doesn't deem it 'serious' are expendable?

There are things that it shouldn't pay for. But as stated before, not paying for wound care led to someones death. There is something wrong with that.

But you act like this problem is unique to Medicare. You know who else that kind of shit happens to? People with private insurance. Nothing is going to be perfect. If Medicare was performing bad you'd have the largest and most powerful political block, the elderly, up in arms. See what would happen if a politician proposed eliminating Medicare and having the insurance industry handle it.

[The Jays]

Yeah, and seriously, how can we possibly argue against anecdotal evidence? Keithy says, oh, I know this guy, he got refused Medicare and he died. I could say, oh, I know someone who got Medicare, and it saved his life. It doesn't add anything, he's in his position, I'm in mine.

[epo]

Walmart now supports health care reform (http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2009/07/19/walmart_health.ART_ART_07-19-09_D1_MSEG13V.html?sid=101)

The stridently anti-union Wal-Mart, which is not a member of the federation, has teamed with the Service Employees International Union to endorse the Obama administration's plan to require some form of employer-provided insurance. The rest of the retail industry is on the other side, arguing that they have the right to not offer health coverage to millions of people in their employ.

I haven't seen the numbers, but I would be shocked if Wal-Mart didn't think this was a good thing for their long-term business.

[angrymissy]

Which major nation has the highest income per kapita?

Not us. We're at 5.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gro_nat_inc_percap-gross-national-income-per-capita

1, 2, 3 and 4 are all countries with UHC.

Which major nation has the highest life expectency?

Not us. We're at 28... beat by Japan, France, Sweden, UK, Germany, Canada, Iceland...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_at_bir_yea_tot_pop-expectancy-birth-years-total-population


Which country is truly the most free on the planet? We export our national success, not import other nations failures.

Not us. Gay people can't even get married here.

[HBox]

Walmart now supports health care reform (http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2009/07/19/walmart_health.ART_ART_07-19-09_D1_MSEG13V.html?sid=101)



I haven't seen the numbers, but I would be shocked if Wal-Mart didn't think this was a good thing for their long-term business.

It's just smart business for them. If every employer were required to provide insurance who would be able to do that most easily? The biggest employers, and Wal-Mart is the biggest of them all. They see it as a competitive advantage, as long as everyone else has to do it as well.

[A.J.]

So you agree that our nation devotes too much of its revenue on the military while giving other nations a free ride. This imbalance causes the United States to ignore social ills which other nations have the ability to address because of said imbalance.

How do we fix that?

Let the Europeans step up and be the "superpowers" they desperately wish to be.

[The Jays]

Not us. We're at 5.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gro_nat_inc_percap-gross-national-income-per-capita

1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all countries with UHC.



Not us. We're at 28... beat by Japan, France, Sweden, UK, Germany, Canada, Iceland...
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_at_bir_yea_tot_pop-expectancy-birth-years-total-population



Not us. Gay people can't even get married here.


No, missy, he means MAJOR countries, which means, countries whose shape is similar or equal to that of the United States. In that case, the United States is #1 in everything, especially the oft-mentioned index of Homes of the Brave.

[epo]

Let the Europeans step up and be the "superpowers" they desperately wish to be.

I not only don't have a problem with that train of thought, but I've favored it for quite some time. Would such a movement best be done through the United Nations?

[A.J.]

I not only don't have a problem with that train of thought, but I've favored it for quite some time. Would such a movement best be done through the United Nations?

Maybe the EU or NATO.

[keithy_19]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25165.html

:wink:

[The Jays]

Holy shit, that DOES confirm it.

[Serpico1103]

Let the Europeans step up and be the "superpowers" they desperately wish to be.

But, then they won't topple democratically elected governments for us. Or install dictators favorable to our capitalistic policies.

[The Jays]

Hey, it's OUR responsibility to install dictators in other countries, it's called freedom.

[keithy_19]

Holy shit, that DOES confirm it.

:wink:

[brettmojo]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25165.html

:wink:
He's got a long way to go if he's gonna' catch up to G.W. Bush.

[hanso]

I see it from an economic angle.
The over 60 % that are bankrupted from high costs (even before the down turn of the economy).
The care itself is an added bonus. Over all the economy would grow very well.

If you look at those major countries with UHC. You will see that they are faring well from the down turn of the economy.
By they I mean the average person.

[scottinnj]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25165.html

:wink:

Meh, should've posted that in the Worst President Ever thread.

[KatPw]

I think you've skewed from the debate. First, it is clear what marks a major nation and none of the aforementioned are withe the exception of Japan and then even they are only a major economically. WE are their defense structure. And secondly, why, simply stated, do you feel that national health care would improve our society? What is the plus side here?

A healthier population take less sick days, which saves their employers money. A healthier society saves money on actual healthcare costs, since it is cheaper to treat something when it is first detected instead of when the condition/disease has progressed. It would also eliminate a lot of unpaid bills (when people get treated and then can't pay for the treatment). That negative balance on the accounts receivable table doesn't go away it either has to go to collections (which means the company gets less money for the service they provided since the collection agency takes a cut) or it gets wiped off the books as a tax write off.

[Misteriosa]

Walmart now supports health care reform (http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2009/07/19/walmart_health.ART_ART_07-19-09_D1_MSEG13V.html?sid=101)

I haven't seen the numbers, but I would be shocked if Wal-Mart didn't think this was a good thing for their long-term business.

i thought walmart already used govt health care for employees. dont they pay employees wages that are so low, they qualify for medicaid? :lol:

[epo]

i thought walmart already used govt health care for employees. dont they pay employees wages that are so low, they qualify for medicaid? :lol:

Absolutely. They've also been busted by government officials for illegally promoting governmental health care programs for their employees.

Cost shifting!

[PD]

Is anyone currently listening to the President?
any opinions on what he is saying - especially if he has clarified any questions you may have had?

[brettmojo]

Is anyone currently listening to the President?
any opinions on what he is saying - especially if he has clarified any questions you may have had?
I was gonna' check it out but they're looking for Dinosaurs in the Congo on Monsterquest.

[keithy_19]

speech/question/POLITICALSPEAK: repeat.

[epo]

speech/question/POLITICALSPEAK: repeat.

You are on a serious tract to being our future Blowhard.

[keithy_19]

You are on a serious tract to being our future Blowhard.

It's what a press conferance is with a politician. Republican/Democrat, whoever.

[HBox]

It's what a press conferance is with a politician. Republican/Democrat, whoever.

You could get an idea of what he is actually proposing between the empty rhetoric. Or you could just keep blindly screaming socialism at anything that happens. Either or.

[The Jays]

He wore a red tie as he always does, sure sign that we are moving toward communism. I don't even need to hear what he has to say.

[keithy_19]

You could get an idea of what he is actually proposing between the empty rhetoric. Or you could just keep blindly screaming socialism at anything that happens. Either or.

I have listened. I have no problem with reforming health care. But not in a time of financial hardships. Not with a bill that is disgustingly large.

[epo]

I have listened. I have no problem with reforming health care. But not in a time of financial hardships. Not with a bill that is disgustingly large.

Which version of the bill do you think is "disgustingly large"?

[keithy_19]

Which version of the bill do you think is "disgustingly large"?

The entire thing.

[HBox]

I have listened. I have no problem with reforming health care. But not in a time of financial hardships. Not with a bill that is disgustingly large.

Any health care bill will be huge. Health care takes up a massive amount of GDP. And not in a time of financial hardships is not an excuse. You are saying that we shouldn't change a system that leaves those unemployed in a position to at best have their finances completely decimated and at worst to die at a time when there are shit loads of people unemployed. This is the time because the system is horrible and will only get moreso. And, like the President said, the current system is costing us lots of money even if it's hard to see that.

[TheMojoPin]

Keithy apparently thinks America is about this big.

[epo]

The entire thing.

My question was which version?

S. 703
HR. 1200
HR. 676
HR. 3200

Or one of the countless others?

We aren't at the point where there is one bill to bitch about. Those who are bitching at that level are exhibiting how much they don't know about the legislative process.

[HBox]

I have listened. I have no problem with reforming health care. But not in a time of financial hardships. Not with a bill that is disgustingly large.

Another reason why it can't wait. (http://www.businessweek.com/blogs/money_politics/archives/2009/07/study_links_ris.html)

In a first-of-its-kind study, the non-profit Rand Corp linked the rapid growth in U.S. health care costs to job losses and lower output. The study, published online by the journal Health Services Research, gives weight to President Barack Obama’s dire warnings about the impact of rising costs if Congress does not enact health care reform.

The Rand researchers examined the economic performance of 38 industries from 1987 through 2005, in an attempt to assess the economic impact of “excess” growth in health care costs on U.S. industries. Excess growth is defined as the increase in health care costs that exceeds the overall growth of the nation’s GDP—a yearly occurrence in the U.S. The team compared changes in employment, economic output and the value added to the GDP product for industries that provide health benefits to most workers to those where few workers have job-based health insurance.

After adjusting for other factors, industries that provide insurance had significantly less employment growth than industries where health benefits were not common. Industries with a larger percentage of workers receiving employer-sponsored health insurance also showed lower growth in their contribution to the GDP.

For example, the study estimated that a 10% increase in excess health care costs would reduce employment by about 0.24 percent in the motor vehicles industry, where 80% of workers are covered by employers. The retail industry, however, where only one third of workers are covered, saw only a 0.13% percent drop in employment. Economy-wide, a 10% increase in excess health care costs growth would result in about 120,800 fewer jobs, $28 billion in lost revenues, and $14 billion in lost GDP value.

[hanso]

I have listened. I have no problem with reforming health care. But not in a time of financial hardships. Not with a bill that is disgustingly large.
But it was ok for Bush to fund wars & feed the rich.
(The first prez to cut taxes on the elite @ time of war)
Not to mention even 1 veto of a spending bill throughout his 2 terms.

[LordJezo]

Chuck Norris says we won't even be able to raise our own children without oversight by Obama.

http://townhall.com/columnists/ChuckNorris/2009/08/11/dirty_secret_no_1_in_obamacare

Not too far from what all those "crazies" have been saying about children being taken from their homes to be raised by the state. It's coming. Combine this with home schooling being outlawed and parents will no longer have any say in their children's lives.

[Furtherman]

Kickboxing classes start August 23rd! Sign up today.

[IMSlacker]

Chuck is not very good at reading comprehension.

[KatPw]

I'm still holding out to see what Steven Seagal and Sylvester Stallone have to say about the healthcare bill. Then I will formulate my opinion.

[underdog]

I'm still holding out to see what Steven Seagal and Sylvester Stallone have to say about the healthcare bill. Then I will formulate my opinion.

I'm waiting for Jean Claude Van Damme to tell me how to think.

http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/dammedance.gif

[underdog]

Brown finished by telling the crowd that Gladney is accepting donations toward his medical expenses. Gladney told reporters he was recently laid off and has no health insurance. (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_08/019423.php)

[Kublakhan61]

I have listened. I have no problem with reforming health care. But not in a time of financial hardships. Not with a bill that is disgustingly large.

I was going to say that you are grossly uninformed.

Any health care bill will be huge. Health care takes up a massive amount of GDP. And not in a time of financial hardships is not an excuse. You are saying that we shouldn't change a system that leaves those unemployed in a position to at best have their finances completely decimated and at worst to die at a time when there are shit loads of people unemployed. This is the time because the system is horrible and will only get moreso. And, like the President said, the current system is costing us lots of money even if it's hard to see that.

But HBox beat me to it.

Access to quality care should not be based on your tax bracket.

[KatPw]

I'm waiting for Jean Claude Van Damme to tell me how to think.

http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/dammedance.gif

But he's from Belgium. Belgium has a public/private healthcare system. Doctors are private practitioners, but the government reimburses a large portion of the cost of services. That sounds like Socialism. Think of the children! Next you'll be telling me you pal around with terrorists.

[IMSlacker]

Nate Silver has a great explanation of the differences between socialized medicine and a single payer insurance system at 538.com (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/08/not-all-socialist-countries-are-alike.html) today.

[BeerBandit]

Ponder this. The US passes some form of Nationalized Health Care whereby the government pays for all medical issues. In 4, 8, 12 years the Conservative right comes back into power, Congress and the White House. Pro-Life groups protest hardcore the fact that abortions are now government sponsored. An injunction is passed imposing a moratorium on all abortions. Not a law banning them as that would be unconstitutional per Roe v. Wade, but a temporary suspension. I certainly could be way off, but nonetheless something to think about.

[HBox]

Ponder this. The US passes some form of Nationalized Health Care whereby the government pays for all medical issues. In 4, 8, 12 years the Conservative right comes back into power, Congress and the White House. Pro-Life groups protest hardcore the fact that abortions are now government sponsored. An injunction is passed imposing a moratorium on all abortions. Not a law banning them as that would be unconstitutional per Roe v. Wade, but a temporary suspension. I certainly could be way off, but nonetheless something to think about.

You are way off because there already was a bill passed way back in 1976 that bars federal funds from directly funding abortion. I highly doubt that Democrat will have the votes to overturn that in a final bill.

But even if that wasn't the case there is no way that would happen. Right now there is constitutional right to abortion. That can't be undone by a law calling for a moratorium on abortion no more than the right to free speech could be undone. Even if they passed it it would be immediately challenged and a court would issue an injunction stopping this from happening. And it would take forever to work its way up to the Supreme Court. So this isn't happening any way you look at it.

[BeerBandit]

You are way off because there already was a bill passed way back in 1976 that bars federal funds from directly funding abortion. I highly doubt that Democrat will have the votes to overturn that in a final bill.

But even if that wasn't the case there is no way that would happen. Right now there is constitutional right to abortion. That can't be undone by a law calling for a moratorium on abortion no more than the right to free speech could be undone. Even if they passed it it would be immediately challenged and a court would issue an injunction stopping this from happening. And it would take forever to work its way up to the Supreme Court. So this isn't happening any way you look at it.
Ok, but doesn't a law barring federal funds from funding abortion prevent abortions under a nationalized health care system?

[IMSlacker]

Ok, but doesn't a law barring federal funds from funding abortion prevent abortions under a nationalized health care system?

No. You'd just have to pay out of pocket, just like you do now.

[The Jays]

I think it's fucked up that we won't reform healthcare because the people who do have it are so afraid of change and are being frightened by the right, meanwhile those who don't have it get to suffer through bankruptcy and debt and having their lives ruined just because people are fucking greedy and unwilling to change. Seriously, it's really fucked up. Letting people be sent over the cliff of poverty so that those who have health care get to stick their heads back in the sand and ignore what this current system is doing to people in this country. It's really fucked up.

not in a time of financial hardships.

Give me a fucking break. That's the most fucked up greedy fucking thinking that people in this country are thinking. "Don't fix healthcare, I'm struggling to pay for my McMansion", at the expense of someone who needs emergency serious health treatment and has to go into debt, has to max out their cards, has to declare bankruptcy and have their credit turn to fucking shit. It's fucking messed up. "Oh, their gonna kill your grandparents." Such fucked up thinking on the right. Such fucking propaganda. "The Democrats are just like Nazis." And this is the party they all listen to. Give me a fucking break. Fuck bipartisanship, pass this fucking shit.

[Dan 'Hampton]

Free healthcare should be a right just as police and fire protection are.

[booster11373]

Free healthcare should be a right just as police and fire protection are.

what about the market place?

[Gvac]

Much like "Global Warming" and the Kyoto Protocol, National Health Care is a tool of the left to turn the country Socialist.

They make it sound so logical and helpful, but the real agenda is insidious.

[sailor]

we already got medicaid and medicare for the poor and the old, what more do you all want?

[HBox]

we already got medicaid and medicare for the poor and the old, what more do you all want?

Puppy doctors and kitty surgeons.

[foodcourtdruide]

Much like "Global Warming" and the Kyoto Protocol, National Health Care is a tool of the left to turn the country Socialist.

They make it sound so logical and helpful, but the real agenda is insidious.

I looked up insidious in the dictionary, gvac is right:

Insidious - adj.- Helping poor sick people and lowering pollution.

[booster11373]

we already got medicaid and medicare for the poor and the old, what more do you all want?

a green cookie on St Patricks day would be nice

[Dan 'Hampton]

what about the market place?

Is there a marketplace for firefighter service or do you have a private police company that patrols your house?
I see peoples point that healthcare isn't a "right" in the constitution. But remember back then healthcare was a bottle of scotch and a piece of wood for you to chomp on while they hacked off your arm. I'm not a socialist in any means but this to me seems like a pretty simple idea. As far as the market, i'm not really worried that these companies won't be able to pay the bills as they transform to another type of insurance that rapes us sans lube. I'm worried that Obama's plan will be like Massachusetts plan which mandates health insurance, but still leaves people in the cold who can't afford an extra 300 bucks a month for one person but makes too much to get the state run free plan.

[LordJezo]

Calling Obama a socialist is like calling him an n?

How long until we have to start saying s-word for socialism?

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You lefties are getting intense with your race cards.

[underdog]

Calling Obama a socialist is like calling him an n?

People have been saying this since the election. It's nothing new.

In other news, FDR has polio.

[Furtherman]

Management is not responsible for any belongings or crying crazies left in the locker room.

[Dude!]

Management is not responsible for any belongings or crying crazies left in the locker room.

your schtick is played
so played

[Furtherman]

Speaking of playing, have you heard of our bingo tournaments on Thursday nights!? $60 jackpots! Sign up with Maude at the front desk today.

[IMSlacker]

your schtick is played
so played

so is yours
and yet
it continues

[SinA]

what about the market place?

Unfortunately, the markets aren't really "free" without full disclosure and accountability to the customers.

Currently, the insurance industry is run by a few large corporations with relatively opaque CEOs and boards. To an extent, they're accountable not to their patients, but to their stockholders. That means that profit supersedes service.

The government, similarly, is an organization capable of offering insurance as an alternative to the privately owned insurance companies. The CEO and board of directors are much more transparent and accountable. In fact, the "stockholders" choose who the directors will be every few years, or can vie for a position themselves.

[booster11373]

Unfortunately, the markets aren't really "free" without full disclosure and accountability to the customers.

Currently, the insurance industry is run by a few large corporations with relatively opaque CEOs and boards. To an extent, they're accountable not to their patients, but to their stockholders. That means that profit supersedes service.

The government, similarly, is an organization capable of offering insurance as an alternative to the privately owned insurance companies. The CEO and board of directors are much more transparent and accountable. In fact, the "stockholders" choose who the directors will be every few years, or can vie for a position themselves.

I'm down with whole thing, is sarcasm lost on you people? or are you just obsessed with all the socialist America bashing, I'm going to the gym!!!!! :smile:

[HBox]

Unfortunately, the markets aren't really "free" without full disclosure and accountability to the customers.

Currently, the insurance industry is run by a few large corporations with relatively opaque CEOs and boards. To an extent, they're accountable not to their patients, but to their stockholders. That means that profit supersedes service.

The government, similarly, is an organization capable of offering insurance as an alternative to the privately owned insurance companies. The CEO and board of directors are much more transparent and accountable. In fact, the "stockholders" choose who the directors will be every few years, or can vie for a position themselves.

Furthermore since most private insurance is obtained through employers most health insurance consumers have no choice. Private insurance is prohibitively expensive for almost all of us so what you get from your employer is the only realistic choice. If you find that you are not satisfied with your current insurer you are stuck with them. All you can do is complain to your employer and hope they switch when their contract runs out, whenever that may be.

The market simply isn't a solution to everything and health care is the best example of that. In most industries if a customer wants something companies will try and cater to them. In health care the most profitable customers to insurers are the ones who won't use their service. Sick people who most need coverage are the ones insurers will avoid at all costs and try to drop if at all possible. Insurers would be thrilled if they could exclusively insure 20-40 year olds who will rarely use their coverage. It wouldn't be at all positive to the nation at large but that is not what they are concerned with.

[Jujubees2]

I'm down with whole thing, is sarcasm lost on you people? or are you just obsessed with all the socialist America bashing, I'm going to the gym!!!!! :smile:

Say hi to LordJezo for me.

[earthbrown]

how about we make health insurance, like car insurance...

End employers providing this benefit, and making the consumer purchase it. If everyone was out there buying it, comparing rates and coverages, it would drive the cost down like Car insurance.

I pay almost $1100 a month to insure my family, and it sucks, but I would rather pay it, than pay the government to supply me with it.

K

[HBox]

how about we make health insurance, like car insurance...

End employers providing this benefit, and making the consumer purchase it. If everyone was out there buying it, comparing rates and coverages, it would drive the cost down like Car insurance.

I pay almost $1100 a month to insure my family, and it sucks, but I would rather pay it, than pay the government to supply me with it.

K

Because almost nobody can afford individual health insurance policies, especially those who already have conditions and actually need it.

[Dude!]

how about we make health insurance, like car insurance...

End employers providing this benefit, and making the consumer purchase it. If everyone was out there buying it, comparing rates and coverages, it would drive the cost down like Car insurance.

I pay almost $1100 a month to insure my family, and it sucks, but I would rather pay it, than pay the government to supply me with it.

K

yes
and allow companies to sell
across state lines
that is why there is no competition

Maine rates are 1/3 NJ rates
let the Maine companies quote in NJ

Auto insurance does that

[HBox]

yes
and allow companies to sell
across state lines
that is why there is no competition

Maine rates are 1/3 NJ rates
let the Maine companies quote in NJ

Auto insurance does that

If that happened every insurer would relocate to the state with the lowest amount of regulation and lowest amount care that must be covered.

[Syd]

That was the McCain plan. It would basically allow every insurance company to center themselves out of Arizona which allowed them to forgo a considerable amount of coverage.

[Dude!]

If that happened every insurer would relocate to the state with the lowest amount of regulation and lowest amount care that must be covered.

why does it work for auto insurance?

[Dude!]

That was the McCain plan.

No, it was my idea first

[underdog]

why does it work for auto insurance?

Because repairing a car is much, much cheaper than brain surgery.

[Dude!]

Because repairing a car is much, much cheaper than brain surgery.

not looking at the absolute cost
but the relative cost

[HBox]

not looking at the absolute cost
but the relative cost

You have to look at the absolute cost when a serious illness can cost 10 times the amount of a car.

To put it more simply: Cars and people. That's the difference. And if you are going to pay less for medical insurance there will be a cost for you later. They won't cover certain things, they will have shitty drug coverage, they will have a crushing deductible, take your pick. And, like I said, the entire insurance industry will relocate to some state with lousy regulations where they can get away with not covering routine shit like mammograms or blood tests and they will make the regulations even more shittier. The entire industry would be able to focus nearly all of their lobbying efforts on one state house and effect the entire country. And if you don't think there is a state out there that will bend over backwards to fuck over the country just so they can have the tax revenue and jobs all for themselves you are naive.

[TheMojoPin]

Can you imagine Dude! posting a post as long as HBox's? He'd probably die from hyperventilating.

[underdog]

Can you imagine Dude! posting a post as long as HBox's? He'd probably die from hyperventilating.

You have to look at
the absolute cost
when a serious illness
can cost
10 times the amount
of a car.

To put it more
simply:
Cars and people.
That's the difference.
And if you are going
to pay less for
medical insurance
there will be a cost
for you
later.
They won't
cover certain things,
they will have
shitty drug coverage,
they
will have a
crushing deductible,
take
your pick.
And,
like I said,
the entire
insurance industry
will relocate to some state
with lousy regulations
where they can
get away with
not covering routine shit
like mammograms
or blood tests and
they will make
the regulations even more
shittier.
The entire industry would
be able to focus
nearly all of their lobbying
efforts
on one state house and
effect the entire country.
And if you don't think
there is a state out there that
will bend over backwards
to fuck over the country
just so they
can have the tax
revenue
and jobs all for themselves
you are
naive.

That was difficult.

[sailor]

Can you imagine Dude! posting a post as long as HBox's? He'd probably die from hyperventilating.

yeah, i mentioned once before he posts like stevie kenarban talks:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_V9mJl9HQbNE/R5jQbsDnSJI/AAAAAAAACbw/sYWCmDvpk0k/s320/malcolm12.jpg

[HBox]

Forget about it. I'm about to pass out trying to read that. I stop breathing at the end of every line.

[Furtherman]

Can you imagine Dude! posting a post as long as HBox's? He'd probably die from having an original thought.

Fix
ed

[Dude!]

Can you imagine Dude! posting a post as long as HBox's? He'd probably die from hyperventilating.

i believe in getting a message
across
with an economy of words

[TheMojoPin]

Why was "across" worthy of getting its own line?

[HBox]

Why was "across" worthy of getting its own line?

across= A Cross
Jesus was on the cross
Jesus said to care for the sick and poor
Health care reform is primarily for the sick and poor
Therefore Jesus endorses health care reform.

[SP1!]

Show me one thing the government does well besides steal our money and blow shit up then I will be willing to get on the national health care bandwagon, until then they can fuck off.

I surprised they are still pushing this and believing obama and pelosi's bullshit that this is an organized attack by conservatives to make them look bad at town hall meetings, we had a guy arguing with his representative the other day down here and they said it was just more attacks by conservatives. Well this guy was a democrat and took a day off from his practice to go to the meeting because his weeks of letters and requests were being ignored.

The nation is a powder keg over this topic and if they keep forcing it then it may blow.

[Dude!]

Why was "across" worthy of getting its own line?

i liked the way it looked

[HBox]

Show me one thing the government does well besides steal our money and blow shit up then I will be willing to get on the national health care bandwagon, until then they can fuck off.

Medicare and Medicaid.

I surprised they are still pushing this and believing obama and pelosi's bullshit that this is an organized attack by conservatives to make them look bad at town hall meetings, we had a guy arguing with his representative the other day down here and they said it was just more attacks by conservatives. Well this guy was a democrat and took a day off from his practice to go to the meeting because his weeks of letters and requests were being ignored.

The nation is a powder keg over this topic and if they keep forcing it then it may blow.

You are incredibly naive. These people are angry because everything they are arguing against doesn't exist in any of the bills. Where are these lies coming from.? Every single independent fact checking organization has debunked this shit. There is no basis for this shit, and yet they are coming from somewhere.

[TheMojoPin]

I surprised they are still pushing this and believing obama and pelosi's bullshit that this is an organized attack by conservatives to make them look bad at town hall meetings

Whut?

It's generally assumed that these are people acting on their own.

[underdog]

yeah, i mentioned once before he posts like stevie kenarban talks:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_V9mJl9HQbNE/R5jQbsDnSJI/AAAAAAAACbw/sYWCmDvpk0k/s320/malcolm12.jpg

That's how I read it.

Medicare and Medicaid.

And isn't the VA like one of the best run health systems in the world?

[sr71blackbird]

So, if UPS and FedEx are doing fine, and the Post Office, which is government, cannt run efficiently or turn a profit and is always in some kind of danger, why would the Government running health care be a good idea?


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bqUmuZnmf7A&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bqUmuZnmf7A&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[TheMojoPin]

So, if UPS and FedEx are doing fine, and the Post Office, which is government, cannt run efficiently or turn a profit and is always in some kind of danger, why would the Government running health care be a good idea?

Think about it for more than 2 seconds.

Think reeeeealllllll hard, Ringo.

I also love the continual charges over the years that postal service "doesn't work." Think about that one, too.

[Dan 'Hampton]

OnA had a doc on a few weeks ago combating Ant on this subject. I believe he said medicare runs on a 3 percent overhead which is much better than ass rape insurance companies. Why wouldn't this be any different? Plus we're already paying for the elderly and the poor, and congress for that matter. Why not us? And I have health insurance.

[Dude!]

I also love the continual charges over the years that postal service "doesn't work." Think about that one, too.

i think the P.O. works great
and is a great value

not sure why obama
kinda dissed them like that

[underdog]

i think the P.O. works great
and is a great value

not sure why obama
kinda dissed them like that

Because he hates America.

[sr71blackbird]

It was not "me" that said anything bad about the Post Office Yoko!
Obama said, in not so many words, that it is not run well, "always in trouble" if I am not mistaken.
If a quasi-government run agency, which has the ability to be funded by the government indefinitely because the government can print money any time it wants to, has financial and efficiency troubles, wouldn't health care, which is far more complex and costly, be a bit more difficult than the government can handle, if the government cannot even handle the post office?

[SouthSideJohnny]

It's generally assumed that these are people acting on their own.

I must be missing the sarcasm of this statement since every democrat congressman I see is talking about "astroturf" roots movements and objectors being bussed in from other districts.

I think the democrats are making a big mistake with their handling of the objections since any objection is automatically dismissed as: organized by the republicans, racism against Obama, or based on misinformation from the republicans. Maybe it's possible that some intelligent people simply disagree with with the proposed legislation without being told to do so by the republicans. Could have something to do with the cost of the proposal, the government's known inability to accurately estimate costs of its proposals, and the spending free-for-all the government is on.

[SouthSideJohnny]

Furthermore since most private insurance is obtained through employers most health insurance consumers have no choice. Private insurance is prohibitively expensive for almost all of us so what you get from your employer is the only realistic choice. If you find that you are not satisfied with your current insurer you are stuck with them. All you can do is complain to your employer and hope they switch when their contract runs out, whenever that may be.

The market simply isn't a solution to everything and health care is the best example of that. In most industries if a customer wants something companies will try and cater to them. In health care the most profitable customers to insurers are the ones who won't use their service. Sick people who most need coverage are the ones insurers will avoid at all costs and try to drop if at all possible. Insurers would be thrilled if they could exclusively insure 20-40 year olds who will rarely use their coverage. It wouldn't be at all positive to the nation at large but that is not what they are concerned with.

You didn't answer SinA's question in your response. As the law stands now, you're right - individual policies are prohibitive but that's because it is such a small market that the risk pool is greatly limited thereby resulting in a much larger likelihood of a claim. If the government changed the laws to get away from employer based plans it would open up the market for people to get their coverage from the best plan they could find - whether through individual policies or coverage through voluntary organizations. That can't happen now. For example, with my business, my carrier will not insure our employees unless a certain percentage of my employees (I think it's 75%+) are under the plan. That's why so many people have their coverage through their employers. If the government changed just that, without being a competitor with unlimited funding allowing it to operate at a loss, rates would drop drastically. Both parties are to blame for not changing it!

I am also tired of hearing the bullshit about the poor people that can't afford coverage. The state of Florida has a very reasonably priced policy that covers all major medical but it doesn't include vision, dental, and a host of elective coverages. It will keep you from financial ruin though if something bad happens to you. Enrollment is dismal! Miami-Dade County just came up with something similar but even less expensive. Dismal enrollment again! I recognize that there are some people that just won't be able to pay for their insurance for some reason, but there are also alot of people that aren't going to pay for their own insurance, even if able, no matter how little it costs. I don't care to pay for that latter category of people and I don't give a shit if somebody thinks I'm greedy for not wanting to.

[HBox]

You didn't answer SinA's question in your response. As the law stands now, you're right - individual policies are prohibitive but that's because it is such a small market that the risk pool is greatly limited thereby resulting in a much larger likelihood of a claim. If the government changed the laws to get away from employer based plans it would open up the market for people to get their coverage from the best plan they could find - whether through individual policies or coverage through voluntary organizations. That can't happen now. For example, with my business, my carrier will not insure our employees unless a certain percentage of my employees (I think it's 75%+) are under the plan. That's why so many people have their coverage through their employers. If the government changed just that, without being a competitor with unlimited funding allowing it to operate at a loss, rates would drop drastically. Both parties are to blame for not changing it!

I am also tired of hearing the bullshit about the poor people that can't afford coverage. The state of Florida has a very reasonably priced policy that covers all major medical but it doesn't include vision, dental, and a host of elective coverages. It will keep you from financial ruin though if something bad happens to you. Enrollment is dismal! Miami-Dade County just came up with something similar but even less expensive. Dismal enrollment again! I recognize that there are some people that just won't be able to pay for their insurance for some reason, but there are also alot of people that aren't going to pay for their own insurance, even if able, no matter how little it costs. I don't care to pay for that latter category of people and I don't give a shit if somebody thinks I'm greedy for not wanting to.

Switching from getting insurance through your employer to buying individual plans does nothing to solve the underlying problems facing our country without massive government regulation. And while there are no final plans for a public option it it even happens at all Obama said it would be on its own. Taxes would not fund its shortfalls if it had them.

As for your second point. If the plans you are talking about are from private insurers then its probably one of those barely more than useless high deductible catastrophic plans. Then deductibles are ridiculously high and the out of pocket cap is even higher. If people are going bankrupt while still having standard plans I can only imagine what kind of financial apocalypse people who couldn't afford that and went for a catastrophic plan would incur.

And if you are talking about public, Medicaid-type programs, unfortunately that's what happening all over the country. I read an article a while back about how states are purposefully making it difficult to find and apply for those programs as a backdoor way to contain costs without actually closing the rolls. They purposefully make it difficult to find what departments offer the programs, what numbers you are supposed to call and make the application progress onerous. It makes it so basically the only people who go through the hassle are the people who REALLY, REALLY need it. It's a shitty thing to do but politicians would rather do that than raise taxes.

[HBox]

I must be missing the sarcasm of this statement since every democrat congressman I see is talking about "astroturf" roots movements and objectors being bussed in from other districts.

I think the democrats are making a big mistake with their handling of the objections since any objection is automatically dismissed as: organized by the republicans, racism against Obama, or based on misinformation from the republicans. Maybe it's possible that some intelligent people simply disagree with with the proposed legislation without being told to do so by the republicans. Could have something to do with the cost of the proposal, the government's known inability to accurately estimate costs of its proposals, and the spending free-for-all the government is on.

they are writing them off because they aren't debating, they are shouting down everyone else and not saying any of the reasonable issues people could have with the plan. Of all the videos I've seen of the raucous town hall meetings I have seen one comment that wasn't based on an outright lie: one lady asked "And how are you paying for this?" and then started screaming socialism before the congressman could answer.

If there are conservatives who have legitimate issues with the plan, and there are and there are plenty of them, then they should shut down these morons. They are not just crowding liberals out of the debate, they are crowding out everyone who has a legitimate thought about the issue. And they are defining the conservative side with a vicious, crazy argument based on outright lies.

[silera]

God bless you Hbox for trying. I know why. Unfortunately, until most have to confront how pathetic "insurance" is in its current state is the debating is worthless. Most of the people that shudder at the idea of the goverment effectively handling health care have no problem granting them the authority to police, judge, imprison and educate us and wage wars in our names.

I can't take this thread, the town halls, the morons screaming about socialism and post offices and dmvs. DO THE MARINES SEND DMV CLERKS ON MISSIONS? WHY THE FUCK WOULD THE GOVERNMENT NOT EMPLOY OR TRAIN THE BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST WHEN PEOPLES LIVES ARE AT STAKE?

Carry on wise warrior. You are a patient man.

[west milly Tom]

so King Obama wants your checking account now, to help with "crediting" you.

I'm amazed to know that there are some people, be it a minority, that still think obamacare is a good idea. I wish you would all wake up and see obamacare for what it really is, trouble.

[silera]

You do realize that the IRS could freeze your checking account since before Jan of this year right? The long arm of the Federal Government was extended without review, Town Halls or public outrage much more severly and detrimentally via the Patriot Act.

Do you realize that the Iraq War was the only war waged by the US that was not accompanied with tax increases? I just spin in circles tripping over the lack of logic or sense or rational thought excersized by people that can't form a fucking sentence or complete a thought without using a fucking hack partisan moniker to attack everything.

It's disgusting how happy many are to let others die, go hungry, go homeless, rot in prison just for the sake of feeling somewhat superior and accomplished. I'd love to know how all the right wing christians that want to make sure every fetus hatches into a person justify denying said person medical care once they make it out.

Right to life right? Wait I forget, you're entitled to live as long as it doesn't cost me a cent or knock me off my precarious little superiority perch.

[underdog]

so King Obama wants your checking account now, to help with "crediting" you.

I'm amazed to know that there are some people, be it a minority, that still think obamacare is a good idea. I wish you would all wake up and see obamacare for what it really is, trouble.

Exactly.

[foodcourtdruide]

God bless you Hbox for trying. I know why. Unfortunately, until most have to confront how pathetic "insurance" is in its current state is the debating is worthless. Most of the people that shudder at the idea of the goverment effectively handling health care have no problem granting them the authority to police, judge, imprison and educate us and wage wars in our names.

I can't take this thread, the town halls, the morons screaming about socialism and post offices and dmvs. DO THE MARINES SEND DMV CLERKS ON MISSIONS? WHY THE FUCK WOULD THE GOVERNMENT NOT EMPLOY OR TRAIN THE BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST WHEN PEOPLES LIVES ARE AT STAKE?

Carry on wise warrior. You are a patient man.

I agree. HBox is really fighting the good fight. He's incredibly patient. I had a discussion about this with a conservative at work and I just don't understand the logic. This bizarre trust they have in insurance companies over our elected officials, THEN they turn around and scream for freedom and democracy. I just do not understand it.

[foodcourtdruide]

so King Obama wants your checking account now, to help with "crediting" you.

I'm amazed to know that there are some people, be it a minority, that still think obamacare is a good idea. I wish you would all wake up and see obamacare for what it really is, trouble.

There is a significant problem with health care in this country. The conservatives have offerred no viable alternative and are not contributing to the debate. They are simply anti-whatever Obama says. Conservatives are BLATANTLY acting how they accused democrats of IMPLICITLY acting when Bush was in office.

[TheMojoPin]

I must be missing the sarcasm of this statement since every democrat congressman I see is talking about "astroturf" roots movements and objectors being bussed in from other districts.

No sarcasm. That's not the general Democratic consensus. Some are going to flog that idea, sure, but for the most part it's obvious these people acting on their own based on misinformation.

I think the democrats are making a big mistake with their handling of the objections since any objection is automatically dismissed as: organized by the republicans, racism against Obama, or based on misinformation from the republicans. Maybe it's possible that some intelligent people simply disagree with with the proposed legislation without being told to do so by the republicans. Could have something to do with the cost of the proposal, the government's known inability to accurately estimate costs of its proposals, and the spending free-for-all the government is on.

Could be....but it's not what's happening in the fits and tantrums. Granted, those are not making up all of the public responses and town hall meetings, but the people making scenes and screaming bloody murder are not doing what you just described and the meetings where your scenario are occuring are not getting much coverage because they're boring and can't be hyped up.

[HBox]

OMG My Grandmother applied for Social Security and those dirty socialist bastards wanted her CHECKING ACCOUNT NUMBERS for direct deposit supposedly to make receiving her payments more convenient. OMG CONTACT YOUR CONGRESMEN!

[TheMojoPin]

It was not "me" that said anything bad about the Post Office Yoko!
Obama said, in not so many words, that it is not run well, "always in trouble" if I am not mistaken.
If a quasi-government run agency, which has the ability to be funded by the government indefinitely because the government can print money any time it wants to, has financial and efficiency troubles, wouldn't health care, which is far more complex and costly, be a bit more difficult than the government can handle, if the government cannot even handle the post office?

What's "not handled" in regards to the post office? The postal system works.

Again, it's foolish to compare the postal service to a hypothetical national health care system as if both would be similar in form and function.

[TheMojoPin]

so King Obama wants your checking account now, to help with "crediting" you.

So did you have this same reaction over direct deposit for tax returns? What about federal loans?

[HBox]

the european heathcare/welfare state is whole inadequate for our needs. my parents lived in ireland for 12 years. in 2006, they moved back to the US. The reason, the heathcare over there just plain sucks. the doctors have become apatheic burocrats, where the system is more important than the patient. My father had a heart attack over in ireland. he was treated and told that he needed bypass surgry. so they scheduled the surgery for 2 FUCKING YEARS in the future (which would have been about now actually). why two years? the systems backed up.
At the same time, my mother complained about blood in her urine. they told her she probably had an infection and told her to drink cranberry juice (which is actually hard to find in ireland for some reason).
So my father left ireland and went to florida as soon as he was somewhat better and scheduled his surgery for a few weeks after he arrived. and he was just fine. But by this time, my mother's bladder burst and she almost died. infection.... right.
It should also be noted that my grandfather died in an irish hospital from neglect. he was suffering from head trauma, and died in the emergency room, because he went untreated for nearly 30 hours after being brought in. emergency not being the opertive word apparently.
Their neighbor, Mick died last winter. he need heart valve surgery. he was on the list to have the surgery for 4 years. that's how they clear the list, you die.
Our system is expensive, but you get care and are treated well, because they want your cash and/or insurance money. The welfare state is not the panacea some think it is. It is far more dehumanizing than ours.

nevermind. i cant do this anymore right now

[west milly Tom]

I agree. HBox is really fighting the good fight. He's incredibly patient. I had a discussion about this with a conservative at work and I just don't understand the logic. This bizarre trust they have in insurance companies over our elected officials, THEN they turn around and scream for freedom and democracy. I just do not understand it.

understand that our elected officials will not have the same coverage as the public under all three of the proposed bills. Understand that those without insurance now will only decrease by half under two of the proposed bills. Understand that you have rights that are being trampled, that are yours that are being eroded daily. Try reading the constitution. What part exactly do you not understand?

[foodcourtdruide]

OMG My Grandmother applied for Social Security and those dirty socialist bastards wanted her CHECKING ACCOUNT NUMBERS for direct deposit supposedly to make receiving her payments more convenient. OMG CONTACT YOUR CONGRESMEN!

It's so funny, these conspiracy theories are so insane and out of bounds. However, they are generally being accepted in the mainstream. The fact that these innane points are not completely laughed off the news channels is proof that there is no left-leaning media.

[TheMojoPin]

Try reading the constitution. What part exactly do you not understand?

What specific part is being "eroded?"

[west milly Tom]

So did you have this same reaction over direct deposit for tax returns? What about federal loans?

be it semantics, I use neither.

[TheMojoPin]

be it semantics, I use neither.

Regardless of your personal choice, do you view those options with the same conspiracy theories and scorn?

[foodcourtdruide]

understand that our elected officials will not have the same coverage as the public under all three of the proposed bills. Understand that those without insurance now will only decrease by half under two of the proposed bills. Understand that you have rights that are being trampled, that are yours that are being eroded daily. Try reading the constitution. What part exactly do you not understand?

I don't need the constitution to define my ethical opinions regarding poor people getting health care.

I don't understand your first point either. The wealthy currently have much better health care than the rest of us.

[HBox]

I actually respect 9/11 conspiracy theorists more than these health care morons. At least 9/11 theorists go to great pains to come up with their ridiculous theories. With health care opposing groups make up shit and these idiots repeat them over and over again no matter how stupid it sounds and without even once thinking to verify it.

It would be funny if in their anger and ignorance and stupidity they weren't putting people at risk of continuing to suffer in our awful health system. But if they are going to repeat things mindlessly like parrots of course they wouldn't think of stuff like that.

[west milly Tom]

I don't need the constitution to define my ethical opinions regarding poor people getting health care.

I don't understand your first point either. The wealthy currently have much better health care than the rest of us.

poor people have health care, medicaid and free urgent care etc. this isn't a have vs. have not debate. It is a poor plan, it erodes personal choice, and violates law. It's impossible to pay for and will allow a huge government presence in the lives of all Americans that they do not need, nor should allow. Wake the fuck up. Our medical system is flawed, but is the envy of the world.

[silera]

I say eliminate the government altogether except for business.

That's why the consitution was written- to make sure that the goverment did nothing other than ensure that people made money and kept it.

[west milly Tom]

I actually respect 9/11 conspiracy theorists more than these health care morons. At least 9/11 theorists go to great pains to come up with their ridiculous theories. With health care opposing groups make up shit and these idiots repeat them over and over again no matter how stupid it sounds and without even once thinking to verify it.

It would be funny if in their anger and ignorance and stupidity they weren't putting people at risk of continuing to suffer in our awful health system. But if they are going to repeat things mindlessly like parrots of course they wouldn't think of stuff like that.

personal attack: you are a dummy.

see above post

[TheMojoPin]

it erodes personal choice, and violates law.

What laws are violated?

[HBox]

personal attack: you are a dummy.

see above post

I'm not going to waste my time with you. You constantly make shit up and when we point out the stuff you say is verifiably wrong and prove it you disappear for a while and hope we forget. I don't. I don't take a word you post seriously because you don't. If you did you'd spend some amount finding out if what you say is true. You don't. Just because you type shit out don't make it true.

[west milly Tom]

I say eliminate the government altogether except for business.

That's why the consitution was written- to make sure that the goverment did nothing other than ensure that people made money and kept it.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

here's what you missed

[IMSlacker]

I miss East Philly Ted. He was so rational.

[west milly Tom]

I'm not going to waste my time with you. You constantly make shit up and when we point out the stuff you say is verifiably wrong and prove it you disappear for a while and hope we forget. I don't. I don't take a word you post seriously because you don't. If you did you'd spend some amount finding out if what you say is true. You don't. Just because you type shit out don't make it true.

verifiably is not a word. I don't make anything up. I don't post any thing ridiculous. You have a point of view and because I disagree with it I'm wrong, why not call me a nazi?

[silera]

Welfare
welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [<ME wel faren, to fare well]

[west milly Tom]

I miss East Philly Ted. He was so rational.

nice :drunk:

[silera]

veri·fi·able (ver′ə fī′ə bəl)

adjective

capable of verification; that can be proved to be true or accurate
Related Forms:

verifiably ver′i·fi′·ably adverb

[west milly Tom]

Welfare
welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [<ME wel faren, to fare well]

welfare n. 1. government providing you health care, food, daycare, a home, and self worth???

[HBox]

verifiably is not a word. I don't make anything up. I don't post any thing ridiculous. You have a point of view and because I disagree with it I'm wrong, why not call me a nazi?

Well I guess you know more than the American Heritage Dictionary. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/verifiably)

Now please follow your pattern and go away for a while. And when you come back at least try and prove the ridiculous shit as you post it.

[silera]

verifiably is not a word. I don't make anything up. I don't post any thing ridiculous.

It is ridiculous that all you had to do was type verifiably into a google search to confirm what you were about to post instead of going with your verbally limited gut instinct.

Same with general welfare.

[booster11373]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

here's what you missed

You know that's just the preamble to the Constitution right?

[west milly Tom]

Well I guess you know more than the American Heritage Dictionary. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/verifiably)

Now please follow your pattern and go away for a while. And when you come back at least try and prove the ridiculous shit as you post it.

you don't agree with me go away. You and your kind would like that. Were you at that town hall meting in Florida?

[HBox]

you don't agree with me go away. You and your kind would like that. Were you at that town hall meting in Florida?

OK. I get it. You are a troll. Find someone else to annoy. Welcome to my ignore list. I'll debate with people who are serious.

[west milly Tom]

It is ridiculous that all you had to do was type verifiably into a google search to confirm what you were about to post instead of going with your verbally limited gut instinct.

Same with general welfare.

With respect to the meaning of “the general welfare” the pages of The Federalist itself disclose a sharp divergence of views between its two principal authors. Hamilton adopted the literal, broad meaning of the clause;583 Madison contended that the powers of taxation and appropriation of the proposed government should be regarded as merely instrumental to its remaining powers, in other words, as little more than a power of self-support

[underdog]

understand that our elected officials will not have the same coverage as the public under all three of the proposed bills. Understand that those without insurance now will only decrease by half under two of the proposed bills. Understand that you have rights that are being trampled, that are yours that are being eroded daily. Try reading the constitution. What part exactly do you not understand?

poor people have health care, medicaid and free urgent care etc. this isn't a have vs. have not debate. It is a poor plan, it erodes personal choice, and violates law. It's impossible to pay for and will allow a huge government presence in the lives of all Americans that they do not need, nor should allow. Wake the fuck up. Our medical system is flawed, but is the envy of the world.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

here's what you missed

Exactly.

[IMSlacker]

Reported.

Fixed.

[west milly Tom]

OK. I get it. You are a troll. Find someone else to annoy. Welcome to my ignore list. I'll debate with people who are serious.

where is the debate? what is the plus side here? and fuck your ignore list. You call me a troll because you disagree. I have never been called that in any other thread by any other member. You are a hack, you recycle what ever you hear on msnbc which has the lowest ratings of any of the news networks. Enjoy postulating an original thought every once in a while. Personally I love debating here, for as much as I disagree with TMP he has enlightened me and sent me to check out a lot of stuff I'd have never looked into without his posts. You are the hack sir. My posts are common sense, not trolling.

[silera]

Well, it's "promote the general welfare" as opposed to "provide" which is used for defense, insure tranquility or establish justice.

Promote means to encourage or make way for the health of its citizens. We as a nation and as states do this with everything. Seatbelt laws, building codes, drug laws, even noise resolutions are all part of the general welfare of citizens.

The intent of the constitution was to make a government with checks and balances, that was equitable in order to avoid creating the very situation that had forced or promulgated the initial colonists. Unfortunately, over the last 20-30 yrs there has been a marked increase in the disparity between the rich and the poor.

Healthcare, education, law enforcement, food and housing all work together to form the basics of how we live and weather or not we are succesful not only individually but as a nation. Does everyone deserve a mansion? No, but people shouldn't have to live on the streets. Does everyone deserve boob jobs? No, but someone shouldn't die or go broke due to illness or injury. We can't all get to Harvard but as a country, our literacy and graduation rates are dismal.

The measure of our country shouldn't be how many anomalies make it, but the standard of living that we allow for our weakest and most vulnerable. I don't believe people are disposable. I don't buy the blame down mentality.

I think that 200 yrs ago, some really intelligent and flawed men came up with a constitution that created a pretty awesome nation, but even they made some mistakes and compromises that we have adjusted along the way.

It is obvious to me from reading 1/2 a dozen posts though, that you haven't put as much effort into reading the constitution as you are pretending to, much less thought. People make careers and lives out of the document. Bible thumpers can throw out their favorite catch phrases too while spewing their hate and venom. It doesn't make them any more godly than you are patriotic.

[underdog]

where is the debate? what is the plus side here? and fuck your ignore list. You call me a troll because you disagree. I have never been called that in any other thread by any other member. You are a hack, you recycle what ever you hear on msnbc which has the lowest ratings of any of the news networks. Enjoy postulating an original thought every once in a while. Personally I love debating here, for as much as I disagree with TMP he has enlightened me and sent me to check out a lot of stuff I'd have never looked into without his posts. You are the hack sir. My posts are common sense, not trolling.

You saying someone else is just repeating lines they hear on cable news is hilarious.

[west milly Tom]

Well, it's "promote the general welfare" as opposed to "provide" which is used for defense, insure tranquility or establish justice.

Promote means to encourage or make way for the health of its citizens. We as a nation and as states do this with everything. Seatbelt laws, building codes, drug laws, even noise resolutions are all part of the general welfare of citizens.

The intent of the constitution was to make a government with checks and balances, that was equitable in order to avoid creating the very situation that had forced or promulgated the initial colonists. Unfortunately, over the last 20-30 yrs there has been a marked increase in the disparity between the rich and the poor.

Healthcare, education, law enforcement, food and housing all work together to form the basics of how we live and weather or not we are succesful not only individually but as a nation. Does everyone deserve a mansion? No, but people shouldn't have to live on the streets. Does everyone deserve boob jobs? No, but someone shouldn't die or go broke due to illness or injury. We can't all get to Harvard but as a country, our literacy and graduation rates are dismal.

The measure of our country shouldn't be how many anomalies make it, but the standard of living that we allow for our weakest and most vulnerable. I don't believe people are disposable. I don't buy the blame down mentality.

I think that 200 yrs ago, some really intelligent and flawed men came up with a constitution that created a pretty awesome nation, but even they made some mistakes and compromises that we have adjusted along the way.

It is obvious to me from reading 1/2 a dozen posts though, that you haven't put as much effort into reading the constitution as you are pretending to, much less thought. People make careers and lives out of the document. Bible thumpers can throw out their favorite catch phrases too while spewing their hate and venom. It doesn't make them any more godly than you are patriotic.

I agree with you in almost all of this post. I am sure however that I am not as dumb as would make you feel comfortable. Its the same tactic as the rest of your compadres: call the conservative ignorant and stupid. That may may comfort you now but it is the hearty conservative mind that is the backbone of this nation.

[west milly Tom]

You saying someone else is just repeating lines they hear on cable news is hilarious.

I dont have cable.

[silera]

If you're going to cut and paste someone else's opinion, it's very rude to not cite your sources. Or were you trying to pretend you actually read the Federalist Papers?


http://law.onecle.com/constitution/article-1/18-spending-for-general-welfare.html

Spending for the General Welfare

With respect to the meaning of “the general welfare” the pages of The Federalist itself disclose a sharp divergence of views between its two principal authors. Hamilton adopted the literal, broad meaning of the clause;583 Madison contended that the powers of taxation and appropriation of the proposed government should be regarded as merely instrumental to its remaining powers, in other words, as little more than a power of self-support.584

ESPECIALLY when said exploration of the limits on spending for general welfare determined that HAMILTON's broad meaning of the clause prevails:

Finally, in United States v. Butler,593 the Court gave its unqualified endorsement to Hamilton’s views on the taxing power.

It's a fascinating read when you're not trolling for an opinion.

[keithy_19]

This has been brought up already I'm sure.

Are people who support the health care proposed by Obama and the Democrats ok with some of them calling the protestors unAmerican?

[hammersavage]

This has been brought up already I'm sure.

Are people who support the health care proposed by Obama and the Democrats ok with some of them calling the protestors unAmerican?

who is 'some of them'? that's pretty vague.



and if you point to people in the media on the left, just stop. Cuz there was never a bigger cry for 'UnAmerican activity' in my life then people who opposed the Iraq war. and that was from the right on a daily basis.

[HBox]

This has been brought up already I'm sure.

Are people who support the health care proposed by Obama and the Democrats ok with some of them calling the protestors unAmerican?

Not OK with it at all.

But don't whine to me about it. You have 7 and a half years left of putting up with it before you reach what I've had to put up with.

[HBox]

who is 'some of them'? that's pretty vague.



and if you point to people in the media on the left, just stop. Cuz there was never a bigger cry for 'UnAmerican activity' in my life then people who opposed the Iraq war. and that was from the right on a daily basis.

It was Pelosi and Steny Hoyer who said it. They said stifling debate and causing disturbances was UnAmerican.

[TheMojoPin]

It was Pelosi and Steny Hoyer who said it. They said stifling debate and causing disturbances was UnAmerican.

It is, at least if one holds any kind of stock in the idea of this country being even remotely democratic. Debate is one of the necessary cornerstones of a truly democratic society and when one willfully chooses to show up at a forum where they can debate and instead chooses to scream and rant and hurl insults and talking points without the slightest intention of hearing the other side or letting them speak. Disturbances are all well and good if it's something where people don't have a voice, but this is individuals willfully subverting and shitting all over the process of questioning and debate for the sake of acting like a lunatic.

[keithy_19]

It is, at least if one holds any kind of stock in the idea of this country being even remotely democratic. Debate is one of the necessary cornerstones of a truly democratic society and when one willfully chooses to show up at a forum where they can debate and instead chooses to scream and rant and hurl insults and talking points without the slightest intention of hearing the other side or letting them speak. Disturbances are all well and good if it's something where people don't have a voice, but this is individuals willfully subverting and shitting all over the process of questioning and debate for the sake of acting like a lunatic.

I agree that debate is. I think one of the things causing people to lash out is that they don't feel represented. I don't think causing a scene is the way to do things. It is a way to start, but then you need to also engage. It seems like the health care plan is not clicking with people. Instead of just shooting people down, they should examine why. I'm sure they are, but it's not coming across very well.

[TheMojoPin]

I agree that debate is. I think one of the things causing people to lash out is that they don't feel represented. I don't think causing a scene is the way to do things. It is a way to start, but then you need to also engage. It seems like the health care plan is not clicking with people. Instead of just shooting people down, they should examine why. I'm sure they are, but it's not coming across very well.

I really don't see how the White House could put out much more comprehensive and readily accessible information that answers almost all of the most important questions. The people going apeshit at these events are clearly not reading ANY of it except which parts have been spun or cherrypicked for them through the narrow window of newspapers, TV, radio and internet that they allow to influence their politics. These people are idealogues and you're talking about them like they're approaching this intellectually. It's difficult to sift through how much of this opposition is actually about health care and how much of it is simply a visceral response to the perceived "threat" they've seen the Left painted as. It's very likely that you'd be seeing these same outbursts and tirades if the initiative was something other than health care.

Something this comprehensive and on this scope should always be scrutinized and questioned and examined over and over and over again, but so much of what we're seeing is not that. Is disingenuous to say it's not "clicking with people," implying that the most visible and repeated opposition hasn't been ludicrously juvenile and willfully uninformed about the whole thing.

[The Jays]

Holy shit, if I have to see "poor people are covered, they have medicare and urgent care centers" one more time, my head will explode.

This is what we're supposed to be fucking satisfied with? Shitty fucking doc-in-the-boxes that give out free samples of medicine. This is the other side's idea of "the greatest healthcare system in the world." It's fucking mind boggling.

You know what was great? When Jon Stewart got Bill Kristol to admit that the VA health system was great, therefore, an example of a high quality health care system run by the government. But then, Kristol went and said, well, veterans deserve it, the rest of America doesn't. It's fucked up.

These fucking town halls are a joke because of the protesters. Instead of participating in democracy, instead of having order and proving input in a civil and organized manner, they show up and shout down any other voice that isn't about "HEALTHCARE WILL KILL YOUR GRANDPARENTS AND OUR FUTURE BABIES, AND WE'LL ALL BE DEAD AND BROKE." Seriously, that shit IS un-American... in America, we're supposed to have debate, discuss opposing viewpoints. In America, we are not mob ruled. In America, the voice that is the loudest is not suppose to be the only voice heard. In America, votes are won by the majority. When the majority is civil and calm and orderly, it becomes un-American when the retards turn off Fox News before they leave the house to go to the town hall meeting and parrot back everything they've heard from the lunatic pundits. That's why it's not grassroots. Grassroots implies that people talk to one another, form opinions, plot out paths and courses of action, enact change they feel is progressive and positive. These plants are fed bullshit Miracle Gro, a nice conservative dosing only meant to ensure that the people on top stay on top, and the people in the middle join the people already on the bottom. They'll be one surgery away, one cancer treatment away from being broke and in debt and having their credit turned to shit when they go bankrupt. That's what the right endorses, a big fuck you to everyone who can't get the good healthcare from work or even by paying for it.

[Dude!]

Holy shit, if I have to see "poor people are covered, they have medicare and urgent care centers" one more time, my head will explode.

This is what we're supposed to be fucking satisfied with? Shitty fucking doc-in-the-boxes that give out free samples of medicine. This is the other side's idea of "the greatest healthcare system in the world." It's fucking mind boggling.

You know what was great? When Jon Stewart got Bill Kristol to admit that the VA health system was great, therefore, an example of a high quality health care system run by the government. But then, Kristol went and said, well, veterans deserve it, the rest of America doesn't. It's fucked up.

These fucking town halls are a joke because of the protesters. Instead of participating in democracy, instead of having order and proving input in a civil and organized manner, they show up and shout down any other voice that isn't about "HEALTHCARE WILL KILL YOUR GRANDPARENTS AND OUR FUTURE BABIES, AND WE'LL ALL BE DEAD AND BROKE." Seriously, that shit IS un-American... in America, we're supposed to have debate, discuss opposing viewpoints. In America, we are not mob ruled. In America, the voice that is the loudest is not suppose to be the only voice heard. In America, votes are won by the majority. When the majority is civil and calm and orderly, it becomes un-American when the retards turn off Fox News before they leave the house to go to the town hall meeting and parrot back everything they've heard from the lunatic pundits. That's why it's not grassroots. Grassroots implies that people talk to one another, form opinions, plot out paths and courses of action, enact change they feel is progressive and positive. These plants are fed bullshit Miracle Gro, a nice conservative dosing only meant to ensure that the people on top stay on top, and the people in the middle join the people already on the bottom. They'll be one surgery away, one cancer treatment away from being broke and in debt and having their credit turned to shit when they go bankrupt. That's what the right endorses, a big fuck you to everyone who can't get the good healthcare from work or even by paying for it.

please...
that was hardly calm and civil

[The Jays]

Do you see me at a fucking town hall? I'm on the fucking internet, on a fucking messageboard.

[Dude!]

so what
same concept

[HBox]

so what
same concept

By internet standards that was pretty damn civil. There wasn't even a sexual reference about someone's gradnmother's corpse.

[Furtherman]

You are a hack, you recycle what ever you hear on msnbc which has the lowest ratings of any of the news networks.

Sorry, but you don't know anything about ratings, and MSNBC ratings are up. So is FOXNews. That's just because there are a few thousands Nielsen rubes out there who can't think for themselves.

This has been brought up already I'm sure.

Are people who support the health care proposed by Obama and the Democrats ok with some of them calling the protestors unAmerican?

who is 'some of them'? that's pretty vague.



and if you point to people in the media on the left, just stop. Cuz there was never a bigger cry for 'UnAmerican activity' in my life then people who opposed the Iraq war. and that was from the right on a daily basis.

Well said hammersavage... do you realize that if you listen to your talking heads keithy, that these protesters are the same kind of people that were against the war? Seems like a contradiction, doesn't it?



It seems like the health care plan is not clicking with people.

It's not "clicking" with people who let other people make up their minds for them. It "clicks" with me because I've researched it and have come to my own conclusions.

[keithy_19]

It's not "clicking" with people who let other people make up their minds for them. It "clicks" with me because I've researched it and have come to my own conclusions.

So everyone who disagrees with the white house are people who are uneducated and just listen to other people?

[HBox]

So everyone who disagrees with the white house are people who are uneducated and just listen to other people?

He said exactly who he was talking about.

[Jujubees2]

So everyone who disagrees with the white house are people who are uneducated and just listen to other people?

No, but people who disagree about policies they know nothing about because they are too lazy to gather the facts themselves are.

[keithy_19]

I would just like to say that while I do watch Fox News and I do agree with certain things that some of their hosts say, I am also and avid reader of news papers that threw their support for Obama.

[Syd]

So everyone who disagrees with the white house are people who are uneducated and just listen to other people?

In the case of healthcare, yes everyone who disagrees with the white house have issues.

The only reason to throw support to private insurers if you're a boardmember with them and your life expectancy is worth shortening over some profit.

[keithy_19]

In the case of healthcare, yes everyone who disagrees with the white house have issues.

The only reason to throw support to private insurers if you're a boardmember with them and your life expectancy is worth shortening over some profit.

Or you don't really trust the government. Personally, I don't feel that the government or private insurers are looking out for us. But to be completely honest, I'm throwing my weight with the private sector on this.

[TheMojoPin]

Or you don't really trust the government. Personally, I don't feel that the government or private insurers are looking out for us. But to be completely honest, I'm throwing my weight with the private sector on this.

The proposal offers both.

That's the thing that baffles me about the people going apeshit over this: they're acting like if they like their current private provider and their current doctors that that's all going to be ripped away from them and they have to accept government care and medical providers.

Why do they think this?

In the grand scope of the idea of national health care reform this really isn't all that dramatic a change. It's supremely ironic that this is being propped up as the tipping point of "socialism" when most true liberals (myself included) look at this as doing way too little. All this ultimately would do is offer a federal alternative to the pre-existing private companies. The private companies would still exist and I don't really see how this current plan would drive down rates significantly. Something drastic has to be done because just this century alone insurance costs have grown 78% over the rate of wages. This plan is a step to getting more people insured to be sure but nobody would have to change their current plans and doctors if they don't want to.

[HBox]

Why do they think this?

Because they are unbelievably stupid and ignorant and believe anything anyone will tell them that will reflect badly on the guy they didn't vote for. There's no other way to say it. These are just very stupid people.

[HBox]

Or you don't really trust the government. Personally, I don't feel that the government or private insurers are looking out for us. But to be completely honest, I'm throwing my weight with the private sector on this.

This is what the private sector gives you. (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/health/13clinic.html?_r=1)

INGLEWOOD, Calif. — They came for new teeth mostly, but also for blood pressure checks, mammograms, immunizations and acupuncture for pain. Neighboring South Los Angeles is a place where health care is scarce, and so when it was offered nearby, word got around.

For the second day in a row, thousands of people lined up on Wednesday — starting after midnight and snaking into the early hours — for free dental, medical and vision services, courtesy of a nonprofit group that more typically provides mobile health care for the rural poor.

Like a giant MASH unit, the floor of the Forum, the arena where Madonna once played four sold-out shows, housed aisle upon aisle of dental chairs, where drilling, cleaning and extracting took place in the open. A few cushions were duct-taped to a folding table in a coat closet, an examining room where Dr. Eugene Taw, a volunteer, saw patients.

And just for reference: the company who set this up, Remote Area Medical, was originally founded to provide care for those in third world countries who did not have access to medical treatment. Take a wild guess as to which country they primarily spend most of their time now?

[epo]

Or you don't really trust the government. Personally, I don't feel that the government or private insurers are looking out for us. But to be completely honest, I'm throwing my weight with the private sector on this.

That's an unbelievably bad place to put your weight in this particular argument.

The problems with health care in this country are cost and access. The government understands both, the private sector doesn't give a shit about either.

High quality lowers cost. Government gets that. That's why they do the CMS/Premier Incentive Demonstration Project (http://www.premierinc.com/quality-safety/tools-services/p4p/hqi/), which has driven a great improvement in health care quality in this nation over the past 5 years.

The problem the government has is that they don't have the funds to provide greater access or provider reimbursements to the providers.

The private sector (health insurance companies) have provided nothing to the system, other than to profit from it. Most "middle man" industries provide some sort of "value", yet this industry doesn't.

The only people lobbying against health care reform is the insurance industry. Not the doctors, not the hospitals, not the drug companies.....its the insurance industry spending millions per day to prevent changes in the status quo.

By providing a "public option" our government is forcing the private sector to provide value to the system (which helps you as a consumer) and forces the private sector to get competitive with its pricing structure (which helps you as a consumer).

Read up and stop betting on the wrong side of this issue. It'll only benefit you.

[Furtherman]

He said exactly who he was talking about.
Thank you.

[Gvac]

Who wants to bet that within 10 years the National Health Care "lock box" will have been raided and we'll be even deeper in debt?

[epo]

Who wants to bet that within 10 years the National Health Care "lock box" will have been raided and we'll be even deeper in debt?

Of course everything is bankrupt. You and your entire generation of baby boomers have ruined everything, ya greedy pricks.