National Health Care Debate

[Suspect Chin]

I don't want to live in a countey where 10's of millions of poor people have to count on the charity of the wealthy to stay alive.

Its not necessarily about caring about strangers, which I guess I do, but about maintaining a functioning society.

How about a country where some people aren't getting health care at all because the lines are so long and the money isn't there for routine care?

[HBox]

Let me rephrase that, why should I be told how my money must be spent to help strangers? I should be able to decide for myself which charities to donate to. Furthermore, people would probably be more likely (and more financially able) to donate to others if they had control over where the money went.

Because we have a government that decides where our money goes. That makes a lot more sense than asking every person what they are willing and not willing to pay for.

I'd love not to pay for the Iraq War. There's shitloads more I'd like to keep my money from going to.

[HBox]

How about a country where some people aren't getting health care at all because the lines are so long and the money isn't there for routine care?

Like where?

[Suspect Chin]

Because we have a government that decides where our money goes. That makes a lot more sense than asking every person what they are willing and not willing to pay for.

I'd love not to pay for the Iraq War. There's shitloads more I'd like to keep my money from going to.

To an extent you are right, there are things so enormous that the government has to take control, but we should be focusing on decreasing government control of our money based on their poor track record of spending our money in the past, not giving them more opportunity to screw it up.

[foodcourtdruide]

How about a country where some people aren't getting health care at all because the lines are so long and the money isn't there for routine care?

You can look through this thread. I'm sure there ar dozens of posts about these claims re: canada, germany, japan, england are greatly exaggerated.

[epo]

Let me rephrase that, why should I be told how my money must be spent to help strangers? I should be able to decide for myself which charities to donate to. Furthermore, people would probably be more likely (and more financially able) to donate to others if they had control over where the money went.

I don't like how much of my tax monies go to the military, but as a nation we've made a judgment and I have to support it by law.

[Suspect Chin]

Like where?

Like every country that has socialized health care already...I know you'll probably reference 20 papers that say I'm wrong, and I could reference 20 papers that say I'm right.

[epo]

How about a country where some people aren't getting health care at all because the lines are so long and the money isn't there for routine care?

That's an insane proposition.

Costs decrease because of access to preventative care.

[Suspect Chin]

I don't like how much of my tax monies go to the military, but as a nation we've made a judgment and I have to support it by law.

If the law passes that I have to pay out more in taxes to support nationalized health care, then I will obviously have to support that too. The point is to stop it before it starts, not complain about it after it goes through.

[Suspect Chin]

That's an insane proposition.

Costs decrease because of access to preventative care.

Maybe preventative care like toothpaste and blood pressure medicine, those are the easy things. I mean things like surgery or chemotherapy. Things that are fairly routine in the grand scheme of things under a employer provided health care plan.

[HBox]

Like every country that has socialized health care already...I know you'll probably reference 20 papers that say I'm wrong, and I could reference 20 papers that say I'm right.

No, you probably couldn't. Our system is demonstrably worse overall. And in many, many, many specific ways.

But this is all irrelevant since no one is proposing that. But I've come to accept the fact that barely anybody cares enough about this issue to learn even the tiniest bit about what is actually being proposed.

[foodcourtdruide]

Maybe preventative care like toothpaste and blood pressure medicine, those are the easy things. I mean things like surgery or chemotherapy. Things that are fairly routine in the grand scheme of things under a employer provided health care plan.

Have you ever had to use your employer provided health plan? They are not as accessible or affordable as you might imagine.

[Suspect Chin]

No, you probably couldn't. Our system is demonstrably worse overall. And in many, many, many specific ways.

But this is all irrelevant since no one is proposing that. But I've come to accept the fact that barely anybody cares enough about this issue to learn even the tiniest bit about what is actually being proposed.

You believe your talking points and I will believe mine.

[Suspect Chin]

Have you ever had to use your employer provided health plan? They are not as accessible or affordable as you might imagine.

Of course I've used it. It is $27 a month and covers about everything I can think of.

[TheMojoPin]

What about our taxes increasing?

Any increases at this point would just be previous tax cuts expiring, as they need to do at some point. It's a fool's desire to expect that a that is increasingly "growing" as ours is and has been can either keep cutting taxes or keep them at an indefinite set rate. We need to be willing to invest in this country if we want it to stay strong.

If you're willing to pay insurance costs, which essentially amount to "just in case" costs, why would you not be willing to do the same for something that is much more inclusive and something any one of us could very easily need at some point in our lives?

[foodcourtdruide]

No, you probably couldn't. Our system is demonstrably worse overall. And in many, many, many specific ways.

But this is all irrelevant since no one is proposing that. But I've come to accept the fact that barely anybody cares enough about this issue to learn even the tiniest bit about what is actually being proposed.

If you call it socialized health care enought, people will believe it.

[HBox]

Of course I've used it. It is $27 a month and covers about everything I can think of.

That's what it costs you. It costs your employer much, much, much, much more.

[foodcourtdruide]

Of course I've used it. It is $27 a month and covers about everything I can think of.

Lol wow. You are fortunate.

[epo]

Maybe preventative care like toothpaste and blood pressure medicine, those are the easy things. I mean things like surgery or chemotherapy. Things that are fairly routine in the grand scheme of things under a employer provided health care plan.

How about figuring out issues in the system? Where are the discussions about the "donut hole" in Medicare Part D, and how much that costs us in unnecessary treatments.

Or how much a lack of living wills or power of attorney statements cost the system in unnecessary and unwanted costs.

[TheMojoPin]

Like every country that has socialized health care already

Neither the Obama plan nor the Clinton planned proposed socialized medicine. What they propose are a public health option and regulation.

[HBox]

Neither the Obama plan nor the Clinton planned proposed socialized medicine. What they propose are a public health option and regulation.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH TALKING POINTS BLAH BLAH BLAH! KEEP SOCIALISM OUT OF MY MEDICARE!

[TheMojoPin]

You believe your talking points and I will believe mine.

Yours are blantantly wrong. Socialized medical care across the board was never on the table. The closest currently existing example to what was proposed for the US in the 90's and now would be what Germany currently has.

[TooLowBrow]

Neither the Obama plan nor the Clinton planned proposed socialized medicine. What they propose are a public health option and regulation.

shouldnt this option be funded only by the people who use it? rather than taxing everyone to fund it?

[Suspect Chin]

Any increases at this point would just be previous tax cust expiring, as they need to do at some point. It's a fool's desire to expect that a that is increasingly "growing" as ours is and has been can either keep cutting taxes or keep them at an indefinite set rate. We need to be willing to invest in this country if we want it to stay strong.

If you're willing to pay insurance costs, which essentially amount to "just in case" costs, why would you not be willing to do the same for something that is much more inclusive and something any one of us could very easily need at some point in our lives?

Why should taxes have to increase because the size of our society is increasing. The more people, the more taxes that come in. You are basically saying that the newest members of our society have no obligation to pay into it, that only the existing members should cover for them.

I don't want to have to pay more for an "inclusive" plan because I would be paying far more for something that is much worse. It is hard enough to survive as an individual, let alone if I have to shoulder more of the burden for others.

Has our government, with all the red tape, ever gotten anything right? Do you really believe that with the magnitude of this proposal, that those tax cuts expiring will possibly pay for it?

[epo]

shouldnt this option be funded only by the people who use it? rather than taxing everyone to fund it?

I want my military, education and foreign aid money back.

[HBox]

shouldnt this option be funded only by the people who use it? rather than taxing everyone to fund it?

It would. Any government money the proposed public plan would receive is subsidies for poor people to afford their premiums.

[Suspect Chin]

If you call it socialized health care enought, people will believe it.

How is it not? They are asking tax payers to increase their tax burden so that people who cannot afford health care will get the government handout. It is redistribution of wealth, that is the definition of socialism.

[HBox]

How is it not? They are asking tax payers to increase their tax burden so that people who cannot afford health care will get the government handout. It is redistribution of wealth, that is the definition of socialism.

:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:

No it isn't.

[foodcourtdruide]

I want my military, education and foreign aid money back.


Yeah, why do I have to pay for other peoples children when I have none?

[Suspect Chin]

That's what it costs you. It costs your employer much, much, much, much more.

Lol wow. You are fortunate.

I realize it costs my employer much much more and I am thankful for that. But it is a benefit of my job that I worked very hard to qualify for and get.

[epo]

Why should taxes have to increase because the size of our society is increasing. The more people, the more taxes that come in. You are basically saying that the newest members of our society have no obligation to pay into it, that only the existing members should cover for them.

I don't want to have to pay more for an "inclusive" plan because I would be paying far more for something that is much worse. It is hard enough to survive as an individual, let alone if I have to shoulder more of the burden for others.

Has our government, with all the red tape, ever gotten anything right? Do you really believe that with the magnitude of this proposal, that those tax cuts expiring will possibly pay for it?

The irony of that statement is that one thing the government actually gets right is health care.

They've proven that they understand that quality drives cost, and have encourage that through CMS/Premier Demonstration Project and a pay-for-performance project to providers. Those projects have created best practices which are reducing actual costs by billions for consumers.

The best part is this: What value are insurance companies providing to the system? Besides higher reimbursements, they actually don't provide a goddamned thing.

[epo]

Yeah, why do I have to pay for other peoples children when I have none?

Exactly.

I also want my federal tax money going to other states back. I don't live there.

[epo]

How is it not? They are asking tax payers to increase their tax burden so that people who cannot afford health care will get the government handout. It is redistribution of wealth, that is the definition of socialism.

Umm, no.

[foodcourtdruide]

I realize it costs my employer much much more and I am thankful for that. But it is a benefit of my job that I worked very hard to qualify for and get.

I have worked extremely hard for my job too.

[HBox]

I realize it costs my employer much much more and I am thankful for that. But it is a benefit of my job that I worked very hard to qualify for and get.

Even though your employer is paying that huge portion it's still pretty much all your compensation. If the total premium were less, and that's what the public plan is designed to do by competing with private insurers, that would mean more money in your paycheck.

[Suspect Chin]

How about figuring out issues in the system? Where are the discussions about the "donut hole" in Medicare Part D, and how much that costs us in unnecessary treatments.

Or how much a lack of living wills or power of attorney statements cost the system in unnecessary and unwanted costs.

I agree that great reform is needed, but to make a government option the lynch pin of the argument makes it a bad bill for me. Why can't we start with a bill that takes care of some of the issues you mentioned, then fight it out over a government option in the next bill?

[TheMojoPin]

Why should taxes have to increase because the size of our society is increasing. The more people, the more taxes that come in. You are basically saying that the newest members of our society have no obligation to pay into it, that only the existing members should cover for them.

How am I saying that? The taxes apply to anyone who is a citizen here.

"Growing" doesn't only apply to the population. The "cost of America" has done nothing but steadily increase its entire existence. Why would that suddenly stop?

I don't want to have to pay more for an "inclusive" plan because I would be paying far more for something that is much worse. It is hard enough to survive as an individual, let alone if I have to shoulder more of the burden for others.

You're not shouldering anyone's burden. You're putting into a program that any American could need, yourself included. You're also ideally investing a program that will drive down your private insurance costs and increase your pay.

Has our government, with all the red tape, ever gotten anything right? Do you really believe that with the magnitude of this proposal, that those tax cuts expiring will possibly pay for it?

Given the size and scope of our country and its interests the government works exceedingly well.

People are wrong over the mad thing when it comes to taxes. Sporadic tax increases over time are a necessity. What has made them harder to accept is the effective stagnation of wages over the last 30-35 years that has killed the buying power of the dollar and kept too many wages behind the curve when it comes to inflation. That's squarely the result of the vaunted "free market" capitalism that so many champion as the obvious ideal over public programs.

[Suspect Chin]

Neither the Obama plan nor the Clinton planned proposed socialized medicine. What they propose are a public health option and regulation.

Come on man, of course they never called it socialized medicine. But how will they possibly pay for it without taxing the hell out of us. And if you believe it can be paid for without increasing taxes dramatically, you are fooling yourself.

[TheMojoPin]

How is it not? They are asking tax payers to increase their tax burden so that people who cannot afford health care will get the government handout. It is redistribution of wealth, that is the definition of socialism.

That is completely incorrect.

[TooLowBrow]

Even though your employer is paying that huge portion it's still pretty much all your compensation. If the total premium were less, and that's what the public plan is designed to do by competing with private insurers, that would mean more money in your paycheck.

if govt plans are cheap, will that drive up the prices of private plans, which will be seen as 'above' govt level quality?

[TheMojoPin]

Come on man, of course they never called it socialized medicine. But how will they possibly pay for it without taxing the hell out of us. And if you believe it can be paid for without increasing taxes dramatically, you are fooling yourself.

Several people have very clearly explained quite a few times how it is planned to finance this program.

And "of course" they didn't call it socialized medicine: because it's not. Socialized medicine doesn't offer an option when it comes to health care. The plan has never been to replace private care with public care.

[TooLowBrow]

Even though your employer is paying that huge portion it's still pretty much all your compensation. If the total premium were less, and that's what the public plan is designed to do by competing with private insurers, that would mean more money in your paycheck.

the govt sells cheese but that doesnt drive down the cost of gouda

[epo]

Its funny that the doctors, hospitals and even pharamaceutical companies ALL came to the table to negotiate immediately to help....

And the private insurance companies, who provide ZERO value to the equation, not only didn't come to the table to help...but are spending millions per day to fight to keep the status quo.

Who is trying to fuck us on this deal again?

[HBox]

the govt sells cheese but that doesnt drive down the cost of gouda

The government also runs its own limited public insurance programs and does so with significantly less overhead than any other private insurance plan.

[epo]

the govt sells cheese but that doesnt drive down the cost of gouda

Even Crazy Jen would tell you that the government doesn't make gouda.

[TooLowBrow]

Even Crazy Jen would tell you that the government doesn't make gouda.

all they make is shitty cheese

the shitty health care they offer will just make people want private care. private rates will go through the roof with the demand

[epo]

all they make is shitty cheese

the shitty health care they offer will just make people want private care. private rates will go through the roof with the demand

What I can't believe is that the private insurance companies don't see 46 million uninsured americans as a business opportunity and offer to get into the game.

[Suspect Chin]

What I can't believe is that the private insurance companies don't see 46 million uninsured americans as a business opportunity and offer to get into the game.

That is the point: How could they possibly profit off of these people? Insurance companies are businesses, don't you think they would be going after the uninsured if they thought they could reduce their prices so much as to offer a product the people could afford?

Health care is so expensive right now that the only way the government can offer an affordable option to most of the uninsured is through massive subsidies (AKA tax money).

[Suspect Chin]

"Growing" doesn't only apply to the population. The "cost of America" has done nothing but steadily increase its entire existence. Why would that suddenly stop?

People are wrong over the mad thing when it comes to taxes. Sporadic tax increases over time are a necessity. What has made them harder to accept is the effective stagnation of wages over the last 30-35 years that has killed the buying power of the dollar and kept too many wages behind the curve when it comes to inflation. That's squarely the result of the vaunted "free market" capitalism that so many champion as the obvious ideal over public programs.

Why should sporadic tax increases ever be a necessity? Taxes are a percentage of our income, therefore they should remain the same (or decrease as we find new ways to do things cheaper), not increase, ever. As our incomes fluctuate, so too does the amount we pay in taxes.

The reason tax increases have become harder to accept is not because of wage stagnation, it is because of inflation, which is ultimately caused by government overspending not capitalism.

Capitalism doesn't stagnate wages, taxes do. Companies would love to pay their employees more in order to attract and keep the best possible people, but increasing taxes make that more and more difficult to do.

[underdog]

Like every country that has socialized health care already...I know you'll probably reference 20 papers that say I'm wrong, and I could reference 20 papers that say I'm right.

How about you just talk to people from those countries? They'll explain to you that you're wrong.

[TheMojoPin]

Why should sporadic tax increases ever be a necessity? Taxes are a percentage of our income, therefore they should remain the same (or decrease as we find new ways to do things cheaper), not increase, ever. As our incomes fluctuate, so too does the amount we pay in taxes.

The reason tax increases have become harder to accept is not because of wage stagnation, it is because of inflation, which is ultimately caused by government overspending not capitalism.

Capitalism doesn't stagnate wages, taxes do. Companies would love to pay their employees more in order to attract and keep the best possible people, but increasing taxes make that more and more difficult to do.

So you're clearly in the "free market capitialism never causes any harm" camp.

And I'm not saying that in and of itself it's a "bad thing;" I'm a fan of the middle ground of a mostly free market with necessary government regulation. You seem to be coming at this with an idea that any negative economic situation or impact we experience is somehow due to government action or interference.

I really don't understand how someone can say that the stagnation of wages is due to "taxes" in the face of the massive deregulation we've seen over the last 25 years.

[strawberrypop]

A comment from a Slate.com article. It's long but summarizes a lot of what I feel.

OK, look. In discussing the crazies and ignoramuses who show up at these town hall meetings, a lot has been made of the beauty of the First Amendment. These people, many of them undoubtedly plants from the healthcare industry and the rightwing-nutcase machine, but many of them simply urged on by listening to Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity on radio and television or by friends and relatives who do, certainly are entitled to say what they want, however illogical or false in fact. But the rest of us are entitled to something in this debate, too: a public discussion dominated by facts.

It seems to me that Obama has an obligation to us to address the nation on primetime television and explain, at a minimum, three things: First, that Medicare is, entirely, a government-run program; the private health insurance companies play no role in it at all, except to offer voluntary supplemental insurance. And, second, that it was the private-sector banks, and private insurance company AIG, that engaged in the conduct that brought those business to the brink of collapse so that they needed a government bailout in order to stay afloat and avoid further collapsing the economy. The only role the government played in this, other than in bailing them out, was its failure to adequately regulate these industries.

And it is the banks and AIG, not the government, that has decided to use part of the bailout money to pay huge employee bonuses.

Which brings me to the third point. It is the private health insurance industry, not the government, that declines coverage for preexisting medical conditions, that imposes lifetime coverage caps, that charges exorbitant premiums to those who don't have health insurance through their employer and so purchase it on "direct pay" terms, and that raises premiums exponentially each year for employer-based coverage.

But Obama isn't going to do this. So, at least regarding the elderly who think Medicare is provided by private insurance companies, at a rate they can afford even though they are elderly and may have serious illnesses, I propose—and this is a serious proposal—that the Congress enact immediate legislation requiring the Medicare administration to send out a short printed statement to every current Medicare recipient explaining that Medicare is entirely a government-provided, government-run program, and that the statement require the recipient to acknowledge, by checking a box on the statement and returning it to the Medicare administration, that this is a government-run program.

The form also should include an option to opt out of Medicare coverage because it is a government-run program. The Medicare recipient will be required to sign the form, like income tax forms. A failure to return the form, check-marked and signed will operate to cancel Medicare coverage for that recipient.

Something very similar occurred in 1967, with the initiation of the Medicare program. Every elderly person who wanted to be part of the system had to fill out a form, sign it, and send it in order to receive coverage.

I'm so very tired of seeing public policy determined by palpably ignorant, appallingly manipulated people. Enough.

Truth be told, I suspect that much of the public shares that sentiment. I think the nutcase-shouting at these town halls reached the point a few days ago at which the law of diminishing returns is applying. How many people are still even paying attention to them? And how long will it take for the pols and pundits to realize that the number isn't what it was two weeks ago?



And, this. It's too long to paste here but it's written by a guy who worked in PR for Cigna for 20 + years and just resigned last year.

The insurance companies are doing more than most people realize to derail anything to upset their HUGE profits.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/17/potter.health.insurance/index.html
(there's too much here to read back to see if this has been posted already...sorry if it has)

[foodcourtdruide]

So you're clearly in the "free market capitialism never causes any harm" camp.

I caught some Randian language.

[strawberrypop]

Barney is a douche, but he OWNS this dope.

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[Zorro]

Hospitals in border cities, including Detroit, are forging lucrative arrangements with Canadian health agencies to provide care not widely available across the border.

http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUSINESS06/908200420/1319/

[TheMojoPin]

And once again, nobody is proposing we adopt Canada's system.

[underdog]

Barney is a douche, but he OWNS this dope.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I was going to cry that I'm being ignored again, but I could watched that video every day for the rest of my life.

[IMSlacker]

And once again, nobody is proposing we adopt Canada's system.

Except for the death panel part. We're keeping that.

[TheMojoPin]

Maybe Fez can take Barney Frank as his example of how to be a fat, sassy gay man who doesn't take any guff.

[foodcourtdruide]

http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUSINESS06/908200420/1319/

The "We don't want to be like Canada!" argument is always strange to me, because:

1. As has been mentioned many times in this thread, nobody is proposing a carbon copy of the Canadian system.
2. No one is arguing that there aren't SOME benefits to our health care system. I think if you are extremely wealthy and you want healthcare, the United States is definitely the place to be. The problems we have are more along the lines of pricing, availability, quality of preventative care to people not in the top 1% income bracket, etc.

[Zorro]

The "We don't want to be like Canada!" argument is always strange to me, because:

1. As has been mentioned many times in this thread, nobody is proposing a carbon copy of the Canadian system.
2. No one is arguing that there aren't SOME benefits to our health care system. I think if you are extremely wealthy and you want healthcare, the United States is definitely the place to be. The problems we have are more along the lines of pricing, availability, quality of preventative care to people not in the top 1% income bracket, etc.

Explain to me how the only plan we have (so far) HR3200 is going to make any of this better?

[foodcourtdruide]

Explain to me how the only plan we have (so far) HR3200 is going to make any of this better?

It will not guarentee that every single American has health care because it is not socialized health care, despite the insistance of some in the news and on this board. Its goal however, is to make sure more Americans are insured. The target I've heard is 97%.

Do you not think a public option will drive health insurance costs down? Isn't that the goal of the bill?

[Syd]

I don't want to live in a countey where 10's of millions of poor people have to count on the charity of the wealthy to stay alive.

Its not necessarily about caring about strangers, which I guess I do, but about maintaining a functioning society.

10s of? It's more like nearly one hundred million people who have no care, or have care but can't afford to get ill less they become bankrupt.

[foodcourtdruide]

10s of? It's more like nearly one hundred million people who have no care, or have care but can't afford to get ill less they become bankrupt.

I didn't want to use hyperbole, but yes if you use your two criteria I believe it would be over one hundred million.

[Suspect Chin]

It will not guarentee that every single American has health care because it is not socialized health care, despite the insistance of some in the news and on this board. Its goal however, is to make sure more Americans are insured. The target I've heard is 97%.

Do you not think a public option will drive health insurance costs down? Isn't that the goal of the bill?

It might drive health insurance costs to the individual down but it will drive taxes up. I would argue that the overall insurance cost will stay nearly the same, it will just be burdened by the government (via subsidies) instead of the individual.

So people without insurance now will get it at the expense of all taxpayers.

[Jujubees2]

Obama appears on conservative radio talk show.

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Would Bush ever have considered doing something like this?

[sailor]

And once again, nobody is proposing we adopt Canada's system.

why are you proposing that we adopt canada's system?

[foodcourtdruide]

It might drive health insurance costs to the individual down but it will drive taxes up. I would argue that the overall insurance cost will stay nearly the same, it will just be burdened by the government (via subsidies) instead of the individual.

So people without insurance now will get it at the expense of all taxpayers.

So if the end result is that insurance costs go down, but taxes go up and millions of more people are insured isn't it worth it?

[Suspect Chin]

So if the end result is that insurance costs go down, but taxes go up and millions of more people are insured isn't it worth it?

In my opinion, no. Maybe I'm being insensitive, but the American way is to fend for ourselves and family and give generously of our own free will, not be forced to provide assistance to strangers.

The health care system is rife with abuse and overspending. We need to fix those problems first.

[epo]

In my opinion, no. Maybe I'm being insensitive, but the American way is to fend for ourselves and family and give generously of our own free will, not be forced to provide assistance to strangers.

The health care system is rife with abuse and overspending. We need to fix those problems first.

Health care system or "health insurance industry"?

[Gvac]

Go ahead.

March waving, laughing, and smiling into the jaws of Socialism.

[epo]

Go ahead.

March waving, laughing, and smiling into the jaws of Socialism.

Aren't you still worried about the Red Scare? Good thing Senator McCarthy is still here to help you out.

[Kublakhan61]

Do you not think a public option will drive health insurance costs down? Isn't that the goal of the bill?

At the very least it will stop the rising cost of health care. Currently the average premium for family coverage is just over $12,000 (2008) -should health care continue to rise at the rate it has for the last ten years we will be looking at a 94% increase by 2020, at which time the average family premium will be just about $24,000.

Yes - one goal of the bill is ensure that we can keep health care affordable. To say "fuck this plan, I only care about myself and not any strangers" is essentially turning your back your future self and family- who will no doubt be hard pressed to afford a health care plan without an employer footing the bill. You can afford it now but you may not always be able to.

[sailor]

Aren't you still worried about the Red Scare? Good thing Senator McCarthy is still here to help you out.

no, he died like 50 years ago, silly.

[Gvac]

I hear that next the government is going to help us by taking ALL of our money and buying us the clothes they think we should wear, the food they think we should eat, and the cars they think we should drive!

So helpful!

[Jujubees2]

I hear that next the government is going to help us by taking ALL of our money and buying us the clothes they think we should wear, the food they think we should eat, and the cars they think we should drive!

So helpful!

I wonder what kind of car they think I should drive?

[foodcourtdruide]

I hear that next the government is going to help us by taking ALL of our money and buying us the clothes they think we should wear, the food they think we should eat, and the cars they think we should drive!

So helpful!

Thanks jezovac.

[Misteriosa]

I hear that next the government is going to help us by taking ALL of our money and buying us the clothes they think we should wear, the food they think we should eat, and the cars they think we should drive!

So helpful!

no, ass... they are gonna take our money to buy us ponies... get it right. :innocent:

[Ritalin]

Except for the death panel part. We're keeping that.

I love a good death panel.

With punch and pie.

[Gvac]

I wonder what kind of car they think I should drive?

A Smart car!

They're wonderful for the environment!

http://jschumacher.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/judy_smart_car.jpg

Never mind the fact that anyone taller than 5'3 can't fit in 'em, you'll do what you're told!

[Misteriosa]

A comment from a Slate.com article. It's long but summarizes a lot of what I feel.



And, this. It's too long to paste here but it's written by a guy who worked in PR for Cigna for 20 + years and just resigned last year.

The insurance companies are doing more than most people realize to derail anything to upset their HUGE profits.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/17/potter.health.insurance/index.html
(there's too much here to read back to see if this has been posted already...sorry if it has)


the guy's name is wendel potter.

here is an outstanding hour interview bill moyers did with him:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html

no, he died like 50 years ago, silly.

thats what michele bachmann's for :tongue:

[Ogre]

In my opinion, no. Maybe I'm being insensitive, but the American way is to fend for ourselves and family and give generously of our own free will, not be forced to provide assistance to strangers.

The health care system is rife with abuse and overspending. We need to fix those problems first.

To expand on your first part, I agree that it should be left to one's own volition when giving of ourselves to help others. To have the Government mandate our charity (sweat equity) to people of the Government's choice seems to be the redistribution of income that President Obama laughed off during the campaign. I believe in charity, however I would like to have a say in where MY money goes and to what worthy causes.

The Public Option and the subsequent elimination of private insurance and healthcare providers that would eventually result is not the answer. There are other ways to reign in the Insurance companies. The Government can certainly take away the Intra-State barriers on policy sales that exist now. That would promote the greater competition that is a goal of Obama. Also they could reduce costs by reducing/policing the well documented fraud, waste and abuse that is rampant in the Medicare/Medicade system.
Being as that the aforementioned entities compose about 50% of healthcare costs in this country, it would reason that to stop some of the bleeding there, would have a significant impact on the Federal Budget Deficit going forward.

Finally for the 15 million that truly need health care and cannot afford it, I would back a Government assistance program in combination with premium ceilings imposed on the insurance industry would help get people the care they need.

The proposed legislation from the House (http://www.buythebill.com/downloads/HR3200.pdf)there are some things that jump out as me as a loss of rights and freedoms imposed on citizens for "the greater good".

page 42 Health Choices Commissioner will choose benefits
page 59 lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your banks accounts for electronic funds transfer
page 85 line 7 specifics of levels of 4 plans - rations care
page 195 employees of HC admin will have access to all Americans financial and personal records
page 341 lines 3-9 Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage plans. Forces you to Govt plan.
page425 lines 4-12 Govt mandates advance [death] care planning consult.
page 425 lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult re- living wills, durable power of atty. Mandatory
page425 lines 22-25 page 426 lines 1-3 Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.
page 427 lines 15-24 Govt mandates program for orders for end of life.
page 429 lines 1-9 An 'adv. care planning consult' will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.
page 429 lines 10-12 'adv. care consult' may include an ORDER for end of life plans.
page 429 lines 13-25 Govt will specify which doctors can write an end of life order.
page 430 lines11-15 Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.
page 632 lines 14-25 Govt may implement any 'quality measure' of HC services as they see fit.

Read the bill (http://www.buythebill.com/downloads/HR3200.pdf) for yourselves there is plenty more where that came from.

See right now in health care as we know it none of this off the wall stuff exists, now the Government proposes this "medical macabre for the masses." Why ? Why not fix the shit that is broken, help those who need help if we must and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

[sailor]

If you're willing to pay insurance costs, which essentially amount to "just in case" costs, why would you not be willing to do the same for something that is much more inclusive and something any one of us could very easily need at some point in our lives?

I hear that next the government is going to help us by taking ALL of our money and buying us the clothes they think we should wear, the food they think we should eat, and the cars they think we should drive!

So helpful!

i thought the same thing from this post of mojo's. by switching from health care to cars he is saying: if you're willing to buy a car, why not have the government buy one that everyone can use.

[underdog]

A Smart car!

They're wonderful for the environment!

http://jschumacher.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/judy_smart_car.jpg

Never mind the fact that anyone taller than 5'3 can't fit in 'em, you'll do what you're told!

Wladimir Klitschko can fit in one.

[Syd]

Go ahead.

March waving, laughing, and smiling into the jaws of Socialism.

Socialism ain't doing too bad. The EU trading zone is already a bigger consumer than America. So, we're already losing our top spot in the world in that regard. Eventually China is going to stop buying up our debt because they realize people in the EU can afford to buy more stuff since they spend so much less in basic necessities.

edit:
also
WAHHHH socialism!!!

*uses internet*
*uses roads*
*depends on firefighters and police for safety*
*uses electricity*
*uses water*

You all are dopes with an almost embarrassing lack of critical thinking. I'd almost cite you as using public schools but I'm hoping that no one was let out of high school without the ability to think logically and rationally.

[Suspect Chin]

Socialism ain't doing too bad. The EU trading zone is already a bigger consumer than America. So, we're already losing our top spot in the world in that regard. Eventually China is going to stop buying up our debt because they realize people in the EU can afford to buy more stuff since they spend so much less in basic necessities.

edit:
also
WAHHHH socialism!!!

*uses internet*
*uses roads*
*depends on firefighters and police for safety*
*uses electricity*
*uses water*

You all are dopes with an almost embarrassing lack of critical thinking. I'd almost cite you as using public schools but I'm hoping that no one was let out of high school without the ability to think logically and rationally.

Hey you're the guy who used to set up the table at 116th and Broadway and scream about how Communism is the answer. Right?

[DarkHippie]

A Smart car!

They're wonderful for the environment!

http://jschumacher.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/judy_smart_car.jpg

Never mind the fact that anyone taller than 5'3 can't fit in 'em, you'll do what you're told!

I fit in one comfortably and I am 6 foot tall (and wide :( )

RE: health care, i like the program that new york has called Healthy NY. I cannot get private insurance cause i have a preexisting condition. Healthy NY is a program that is gov subisdized private insurance. I pay 300$/ month and I get ins from Blue Cross Blue Shield. It is not as good as there regular ins, but with out it i could not get my medicine and would have to go on medicaid, which really really sucks.

[sailor]

"the founding fathers never intended the poor to live to their 40s"

[Syd]

Hey you're the guy who used to set up the table at 116th and Broadway and scream about how Communism is the answer. Right?

Hey you're the guy who used to light crosses your backyard!

See I can make baseless claims too since I have no other way of responding!! Right?

[Suspect Chin]

Hey you're the guy who used to light crosses your backyard!

See I can make baseless claims too since I have no other way of responding!! Right?

Wouldn't I be lighting crosses in other peoples' yards?

How does being a member of the KKK have anything to do with a public option in health care?

[TheMojoPin]

i thought the same thing from this post of mojo's. by switching from health care to cars he is saying: if you're willing to buy a car, why not have the government buy one that everyone can use.

You thought that because you're a fucking moron.

[Dude!]

You thought that because you're a fucking moron.

that kind of personal attack
is frowned upon here

[TheMojoPin]

that kind of personal attack
is frowned upon here

sailor is the exception.

Feel free to join in.

[Dude!]

sailor is the exception.

Feel free to join in.

no thanks
he's too much of an asshole
for me to engage

[sailor]

You thought that because you're a fucking moron.

you're an impolite person.

[keithy_19]

I fit in one comfortably and I am 6 foot tall (and wide :( )

RE: health care, i like the program that new york has called Healthy NY. I cannot get private insurance cause i have a preexisting condition. Healthy NY is a program that is gov subisdized private insurance. I pay 300$/ month and I get ins from Blue Cross Blue Shield. It is not as good as there regular ins, but with out it i could not get my medicine and would have to go on medicaid, which really really sucks.

I have health insurance from my dad's job. But, since I have a condition as well, I also have life insurance. They don't ask about any preexisting conditions and when I reach 40 it will rise to what a typical life insurance policy would be.

It's kind of fun reading about my death and how much I'm worth while I'm 21.

[Kublakhan61]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dydx15enhlg&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dydx15enhlg&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[LordJezo]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dydx15enhlg&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dydx15enhlg&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Nice scare ad from the left. Doing nothing but demonizing those who are fighting for freedom and trying to stop the tide of Obama sweeping down everyone who opposes him.

[Jujubees2]

Nice scare ad from the left. Doing nothing but demonizing those who are fighting for freedom and trying to stop the tide of Obama sweeping down everyone who opposes him.

How was the gym this morning?

[Kublakhan61]

Nice scare ad from the left. Doing nothing but demonizing those who are fighting for freedom and trying to stop the tide of Obama sweeping down everyone who opposes him.

Tit for tat, I guess, considering all the talk of death panels and Obama's plan being akin to nazi plans.

[Jujubees2]

Tit for tat, I guess, considering all the talk of death panels and Obama's plan being akin to nazi plans.

and don't forget the illegal aliens getting free healthcare.

[IMSlacker]

and don't forget the illegal aliens getting free healthcare.

and free abortions for everybody!

[keithy_19]

and free abortions for everybody!

abortions for SOME, mini american flags for EVERYONE.

[Syd]

Wouldn't I be lighting crosses in other peoples' yards?

How does being a member of the KKK have anything to do with a public option in health care?

Nothing. However, given that you can only respond to an argument by repeating a noun that someone told you to repeat my sarcastic remark that you were a KKK member was pretty much stillborn from the get-go.

[brettmojo]

Wouldn't I be lighting crosses in other peoples' yards?

How does being a member of the KKK have anything to do with a public option in health care?
KKK, Obama, Nazis... It's all the same.

[Zorro]

and free abortions for everybody!

Only for the men

[HBox]

If you want the current health care debate spelled out for you as simply as possible, click here. (http://www.slideshare.net/danroam/healthcare-napkins-all)

[LordJezo]

How was the gym this morning?

Couldn't go today, smashed my funny bone nerve a half hour before I was supposed to leave for the gym and it's still hurting hours later. Can't put any pressure on my elbow or bend it all the way back.

Sucks.

I wonder if Obamacare would treat it for free.

[Furtherman]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8zHNSdjl8A/SId66OpXxZI/AAAAAAAABLc/wkdd4B8-pzk/s400/WOW%2Bsign%2B(1).jpg

[LordJezo]

If you want the current health care debate spelled out for you as simply as possible, click here. (http://www.slideshare.net/danroam/healthcare-napkins-all)

If you want to know what will happen when Obama takes over the market and destroys competition and eliminates choice and pushes government deeper into our lives than ever before click here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqMKK8AoLCw)

Or just click this:

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BqMKK8AoLCw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BqMKK8AoLCw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

[Furtherman]

http://www.wendyperriam.com/images/Virgin_in_the_gym.jpg

[LordJezo]

No this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Nerves_of_the_left_upper_extremity.gif

[epo]

If you want to know what will happen when Obama takes over the market and destroys competition and eliminates choice and pushes government deeper into our lives than ever before click here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqMKK8AoLCw)

Or just click this:

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BqMKK8AoLCw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BqMKK8AoLCw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

NotSoSure.org is a project of Let Freedom Ring USA.

Congrats. You are now a whore for a lobbying group.

[SonOfSmeagol]

This gov't cannot even properly manage CARS, let alone a $1,000,000,000,000 health care program.

[Syd]

The one thing I don't get about the PR campaign is how it is so effective. The vast majority of Americans have healthcare subsidized by their employer -- they have very little choice, or empowerment, or whichever buzzword sticks best with voters.

The only choice they have is the one given to them by their situation. There's no empowerment there at all, no matter how you cut it. That is a perk, a handout.

There's this certain vanity that goes along with the conservative viewpoint. That you're special, that you stand out, that you're extremely important. I hate to break it to you but you aren't. Businesses don't care about you and never, ever will. You're never going to have enough money to make it anywhere near the boardroom, nor will your kid or anyone your kid knows.

If you have private healthcare now, you're already entered into a form of socialism. You and everyone else enrolled in your insurance plan are paying for the costs of care of others. Very few require very much care whereas the majority of the people in the plan don't. So, you're already lending someone a hand now. Why don't you want that cost spread out among the entire population? That cost spread out among the entire population without a business dipping their hand in taking $1 out of every $3 to pay for non-medical care costs?

Granted, we might not be ready for allowing government to control that facet of our lives. There's the disconcerting notion that the two major government run healthcare programs through Veterans Aid and Medicare are already some of the best in terms of patient satisfaction and care provided. Then you have to figure in that the overhead costs for the VA program and Medicare are cents on the private insurers dollar. It's difficult to want to move to something that sounds too good to be true. I understand that -- there's already many millions of people provided with better care already that the rest of America isn't good enough to also receive. Hopefully our healthcare providers now will hold townhall meetings so we can discuss why there are exorbitant costs and mediocre coverage. Looking forward to when they do that though.

Anyway, as I said a million times before it is moot. No one has a choice in healthcare already -- accept that someone other than you are making decisions. I'd for one much rather have a public official that I have some sway over through the means of democratic and free elections rather than depending on an oligarch making the decision. I guess that is the way it goes now. People would rather trust someone they didn't vote for rather than someone they did. Funny how that doesn't seem to work with Obama.

[sailor]

Congrats. You are now a whore for a lobbying group.

aarp doesn't do any lobbying?

[DarkHippie]

If you want the current health care debate spelled out for you as simply as possible, click here. (http://www.slideshare.net/danroam/healthcare-napkins-all)

gotta say, this was really well done. it does a good job of explaining all of the options, and how no matter what it is gonna cost us money (of course, it is already costing us money as health care costs go up, putting strain of businesses, and indivduals)

[torker]

Why don't you want that cost spread out among the entire population?


:devil2::devil2::furious::furious:Because I'm an evil white male.:furious::furious::devil2::devil2:

[SonOfSmeagol]

I'd for one much rather have a public official that I have some sway over through the means of democratic and free elections rather than depending on an oligarch making the decision.

I'd much rather fix the "oligarch" by reducing Federal regulation and increasing competition than have any, ANY "public official" EVER making MORE decisions on my behalf. What percentage of real "public officials" do you think actually act in YOUR best interest, as opposed to responding to bureaucratic realities? There is no greater motivator than supply and demand. This is the real world, not some academic exercise. More power to "public officials" in such matters pretty much always results in them having all the supply and you demanding the very basic necessities. No thanks. And thank you, San Fran Nan for pushing, pushing, pushing. It can only help all in the long run. In the meantime, pissed off old people always have been, and always will be, fun to watch.

[epo]

aarp doesn't do any lobbying?

Certainly, as do groups from many ideas. However most rational people (you included) don't randomly post their information as fact in the manner that a person like Jezo would.

[sailor]

Certainly, as to groups from through many ideas. However most rational people (you included) don't randomly their information as fact in the manner that a person like Jezo would.

hey, i'll be as irrational as i wanna be!

[DarkHippie]

I'd much rather fix the "oligarch" by reducing Federal regulation and increasing competition than have any, ANY "public official" EVER making MORE decisions on my behalf. What percentage of real "public officials" do you think actually act in YOUR best interest, as opposed to responding to bureaucratic realities? There is no greater motivator than supply and demand. This is the real world, not some academic exercise. More power to "public officials" in such matters pretty much always results in them having all the supply and you demanding the very basic necessities. No thanks. And thank you, San Fran Nan for pushing, pushing, pushing. It can only help all in the long run. In the meantime, pissed off old people always have been, and always will be, fun to watch.

I honestly don't like anyone making choices for me but right now there are some anonymous middle management guys at blue cross blue shield who make the decision. They are untouchable and looking at it from a purely b usiness sense

I just got a bill for 539$ because my ins declined to pick up my radiology bill. Not cool.

[Syd]

I'd much rather fix the "oligarch" by reducing Federal regulation and increasing competition than have any, ANY "public official" EVER making MORE decisions on my behalf. What percentage of real "public officials" do you think actually act in YOUR best interest, as opposed to responding to bureaucratic realities? There is no greater motivator than supply and demand. This is the real world, not some academic exercise. More power to "public officials" in such matters pretty much always results in them having all the supply and you demanding the very basic necessities. No thanks. And thank you, San Fran Nan for pushing, pushing, pushing. It can only help all in the long run. In the meantime, pissed off old people always have been, and always will be, fun to watch.

So because some public officials aren't acting in your behalf its better to have someone who will never act on your behalf to run your healthcare?

Also, reduce -what- regulation on health insurers? You can't just throw out something you heard and expect it to stick. What regulation is holding insurance companies back? What regulation is causing them to charge twice as much for equivalent or worse care than other first world nations?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Wow this is getting interesting. Axelrod is being targeted now


http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090819/pl_politico/26240_1

[keithy_19]

Wow this is getting interesting. Axelrod is being targeted now


http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090819/pl_politico/26240_1

On his first day in office, Obama unveiled a strict ethics policy barring officials from working on issues “directly and substantially related” to their former clients or employers for two years.

Ok.

The White House vigorously denied that Axelrod violated the spirit of that policy. And, in fact, Axelrod's buyout agreements were cleared by the independent Office of Government Ethics, which is headed by a director appointed in 2006 to a five-year term by former President George W. Bush.

“David Axelrod has fully complied with the toughest ever ethics rules for administration officials, including divesting from AKPD before the administration began,” said Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt. “The notion that Mr. Axelrod should decline to participate in all health care policy work because his former firm—from which he has divested himself—has retained a single client which he has had no contact with is absurd.”


This kind of confuses me.

[SonOfSmeagol]

So because some public officials aren't acting in your behalf its better to have someone who will never act on your behalf to run your healthcare?

Also, reduce -what- regulation on health insurers? You can't just throw out something you heard and expect it to stick. What regulation is holding insurance companies back? What regulation is causing them to charge twice as much for equivalent or worse care than other first world nations?

In this case is I will always trust the free market more than any bureaucrat in some US gov’t department. It would seem you have the opposite view. The competitive landscape may need some adjusting in this industry and state and federal laws etc. are a part of that adjustment. I don't see more US gov’t involvement and ownership, in this case, as any kind of answer. I don't have the specific answer and would never propose one, but I know my preferred framework in which I would like to see it. I’m not going to get into some socialist vs. free market argument - it’s pointless.

[Kublakhan61]

The one thing I don't get about the PR campaign is how it is so effective. The vast majority of Americans have healthcare subsidized by their employer -- they have very little choice, or empowerment, or whichever buzzword sticks best with voters.

The only choice they have is the one given to them by their situation. There's no empowerment there at all, no matter how you cut it. That is a perk, a handout.


But as health care continues to rise it becomes harder to employers to afford the best coverage. The worker sees an increase in co-pays, or access to top-tier pharms, or certain dr.s they were using is no longer 'in-plan'. The American citizen is right now protecting their future. Rates will continue to rise (remember insurance is a business) and employers will either have to cut benefits or cut staff. Like I said earlier, by 2020 it is expected that a decent family plan will be up around 23K, some people don't make that in a year.

So, we do have a choice - this is our moment of empowerment. Think it through.

[Crispy123]

In this case is I will always trust the free market more than any bureaucrat in some US gov’t department. It would seem you have the opposite view. The competitive landscape may need some adjusting in this industry and state and federal laws etc. are a part of that adjustment. I don't see more US gov’t involvement and ownership, in this case, as any kind of answer. I don't have the specific answer and would never propose one, but I know my preferred framework in which I would like to see it. I’m not going to get into some socialist vs. free market argument - it’s pointless.

Have you taken a look at the American economy lately? It is many things but a "free market" aint one of em. If you think the Insurance companies are abiding by some kind of rules you are very niave. Oversight and regulation are not things that Corporations are in the habit of performing voluntarily these days.

[HBox]

Just another story of a person leaving their country's awful health system to receive care elsewhere. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32474107/ns/health-health_care/)

Elizabeth Kunz left her dentist's office this spring with a mouth full of problems and no way to pay for them.

The South Carolina resident went out of her way, literally, to find a solution, which turned out to be in Central America. Her trip to the tropics is part of a health insurance experiment for trimming medical costs: overseas care.

As Washington searches for ways to tame the country's escalating health care costs, more insurers are offering networks of surgeons and dentists in places like India and Costa Rica, where costs can be as much as 80 percent less than in America.

[A.J.]

Just another story of a person leaving their country's awful health system to receive care elsewhere. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32474107/ns/health-health_care/)

Elizabeth Kunz left her dentist's office this spring with a mouth full of problems and no way to pay for them.

The South Carolina resident went out of her way, literally, to find a solution, which turned out to be in Central America. Her trip to the tropics is part of a health insurance experiment for trimming medical costs: overseas care.

As Washington searches for ways to tame the country's escalating health care costs, more insurers are offering networks of surgeons and dentists in places like India and Costa Rica, where costs can be as much as 80 percent less than in America.

"I don't trust a doctor who can't speak English."

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/godfather/images/thumb/8/85/Hyman_roth.jpg/250px-Hyman_roth.jpg

[shittles]

Have any of you liberals been to the DMV? Do you want these wastes of space to be in charge of your health care?

[underdog]

Have any of you liberals been to the DMV? Do you want these wastes of space to be in charge of your health care?

The Mass RMVs are actually fantastic now. They're extremely organized and helpful.

[HBox]

Have any of you liberals been to the DMV? Do you want these wastes of space to be in charge of your health care?

About all my insurance company covers these days is consultations with DMV workers.

[shittles]

I'm just saying that Obamacare will just be another communist system that will force us to drop our current doctors for government appointed ones. Obama wants to raise our taxes and then force us to use some government doctor

[HBox]

I'm just saying that Obamacare will just be another communist system that will force us to drop our current doctors for government appointed ones. Obama wants to raise our taxes and then force us to use some government doctor

No. You are just proving you have not even the slightest clue what you are talking about.

[shittles]

You are naive if you don't realize Obamacare is the first step toward having the government rule our lives and take away our freedom

[HBox]

You are naive if you don't realize Obamacare is the first step toward having the government rule our lives and take away our freedom

And the planes never hit the towers, right?

Because that's exactly what you sound like.

[shittles]

No, I believe terriorists attacked our country on 9/11. But I believe another terrorist by the name of Obama is currently in charge of our country. His hatred for white people is driving him to tax us and take away our freedoms to punish us for slavery. Why should my hard earned money go and pay for an illegal aliens doctor?

[HBox]

No, I believe terriorists attacked our country on 9/11. But I believe another terrorist by the name of Obama is currently in charge of our country. His hatred for white people is driving him to tax us and take away our freedoms to punish us for slavery. Why should my hard earned money go and pay for an illegal aliens doctor?

Your hard earned money already goes to treat illegal aliens. And this bill would not provide coverage for illegal aliens. But please continue, I find this entertaining.

[shittles]

I don't think I alone in preferring the free market to some government doctor. Most real Americans feel the same way. Obama is taking away our country.

[HBox]

I don't think I alone in preferring the free market to some government doctor. Most real Americans feel the same way. Obama is taking away our country.

The only thing not hilarious about this is that there are more people like you and you all can vote. But the slogans, the ignorance, the bit about "real" Americans, all gold.

[shittles]

America already has the best health care in world. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Obama is just trying to scare us so he can expand the government. Whether it is climate warming or health care, liberals can only fool Americans into accepting communism by scaring us.

[HBox]

America already has the best health care in world. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Obama is just trying to scare us so he can expand the government. Whether it is climate warming or health care, liberals can only fool Americans into accepting communism by scaring us.

This isn't funny anymore because this is obviously a bit.

[underdog]

The only thing not hilarious about this is that there are more people like you and you all can vote. But the slogans, the ignorance, the bit about "real" Americans, all gold.

Are you arguing with your own board character?

[keithy_19]

The Mass RMVs are actually fantastic now. They're extremely organized and helpful.

The ones in New Jersey are quite pleasent too.

[HBox]

Are you arguing with your own board character?

My board characters are much better than that.

[Kublakhan61]

You are naive if you don't realize Obamacare is the first step toward having the government rule our lives and take away our freedom

Health care costs will continue to rise if we don't make a change now. At some point the premiums will be so high that small businesses won't have any chance at providing good coverage to their employees. The small business will then either have to keep a skeleton crew who'll get the good benefits, or keep all staff on and offer nothing or at best a weak plan.

What happens next?

The employees leave for a bigger company, one which can afford overpriced health care plans. Small businesses become undesirable and big corps complete the takeover.

You are taking away our freedom by not acting in your own self-interest. You are protecting big business (which you don't have a hand in) that is only concerned with squeezing you for money.

[Syd]

Health care costs will continue to rise if we don't make a change now. At some point the premiums will be so high that small businesses won't have any chance at providing good coverage to their employees. The small business will then either have to keep a skeleton crew who'll get the good benefits, or keep all staff on and offer nothing or at best a weak plan.

What happens next?

The employees leave for a bigger company, one which can afford overpriced health care plans. Small businesses become undesirable and big corps complete the takeover.

You are taking away our freedom by not acting in your own self-interest. You are protecting big business (which you don't have a hand in) that is only concerned with squeezing you for money.

You're forgetting one thing -- larger corporations are moving to Canada because it is cheaper to do business there. The only way to secure businesses to remain in America are to make the host state a virtual tax haven to offset health insurance costs.

[badmonkey]

The proposed legislation from the House (http://www.buythebill.com/downloads/HR3200.pdf)there are some things that jump out as me as a loss of rights and freedoms imposed on citizens for "the greater good".

page 42 Health Choices Commissioner will choose benefits
page 59 lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your banks accounts for electronic funds transfer
page 85 line 7 specifics of levels of 4 plans - rations care
page 195 employees of HC admin will have access to all Americans financial and personal records
page 341 lines 3-9 Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage plans. Forces you to Govt plan.
page425 lines 4-12 Govt mandates advance [death] care planning consult.
page 425 lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult re- living wills, durable power of atty. Mandatory
page425 lines 22-25 page 426 lines 1-3 Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.
page 427 lines 15-24 Govt mandates program for orders for end of life.
page 429 lines 1-9 An 'adv. care planning consult' will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.
page 429 lines 10-12 'adv. care consult' may include an ORDER for end of life plans.
page 429 lines 13-25 Govt will specify which doctors can write an end of life order.
page 430 lines11-15 Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.
page 632 lines 14-25 Govt may implement any 'quality measure' of HC services as they see fit.

Read the bill (http://www.buythebill.com/downloads/HR3200.pdf) for yourselves there is plenty more where that came from.

See right now in health care as we know it none of this off the wall stuff exists, now the Government proposes this "medical macabre for the masses." Why ? Why not fix the shit that is broken, help those who need help if we must and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

Nobody that supports the health care reform from the Democrats care to address these points from the House bill HR2300? Obama has not put forward a plan. He says lots of things at townhall meetings about his plan, but unless he actually gets around to WRITING his plan and sending it to congress...this is what the congress is writing and putting forward. It is NOT what Obama has been promising you.

[HBox]

Nobody that supports the health care reform from the Democrats care to address these points from the House bill HR2300? Obama has not put forward a plan. He says lots of things at townhall meetings about his plan, but unless he actually gets around to WRITING his plan and sending it to congress...this is what the congress is writing and putting forward. It is NOT what Obama has been promising you.

I'm not going to comment on that just like I'm not going to comment on 14 different paragraphs randomly lifted from War and Peace. Context means something, or so I've heard.

[badmonkey]

I'm not going to comment on that just like I'm not going to comment on 14 different paragraphs randomly lifted from War and Peace. Context means something, or so I've heard.

In this case, the context is the health care bill in the House that they are wanting to have become law. I understand you don't want to comment on it. You probably haven't read it, much like your Democratic heroes. What you just said is moronic at best.

It's easy to just say the Republicans are lying and pushing misinformation when you're just taking Obama's word for whats in the bill rather than reading the bill yourself like the people who are QUOTING it. Obama either doesn't know what's in this bill or he's lying to you.

You don't need to comment on it .... I wanted to hear from somebody that might actually have a clue... not somebody that just professes to have a clue.

[HBox]

In this case, the context is the health care bill in the House that they are wanting to have become law. I understand you don't want to comment on it. You probably haven't read it, much like your Democratic heroes. What you just said is moronic at best.

It's easy to just say the Republicans are lying and pushing misinformation when you're just taking Obama's word for whats in the bill rather than reading the bill yourself like the people who are QUOTING it. Obama either doesn't know what's in this bill or he's lying to you.

You don't need to comment on it .... I wanted to hear from somebody that might actually have a clue... not somebody that just professes to have a clue.

I'm sure you read the entire thing so please, educate us.

[Syd]

Point is moot, looks like they're going to railroad through a public option. The Republicans will have lost in their valiant fight to keep 50m Americans uninsured and 250m more from paying exorbitant premiums from preventing any sort of health insurer revenue lost due to meaningful cost controls from being enacted.

Better luck next time exploiting your fellow man, GOP.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Have you taken a look at the American economy lately? It is many things but a "free market" aint one of em. If you think the Insurance companies are abiding by some kind of rules you are very niave. Oversight and regulation are not things that Corporations are in the habit of performing voluntarily these days.

Last I looked we hadn’t changed that free market thing– you know, like open markets and small business and the stock market and stuff? This statement about the free market really makes no sense, unless you really expect your stuff for free. As for the thing about rules and oversight and regulations I believe I stated the opinion that some adjustment in the competitive landscape of the insurance industry is necessary, but that more significant gov’t involvement/investment in such an industry is most definitely not the answer.

[shittles]

Last I looked we hadn’t changed that free market thing– you know, like open markets and small business and the stock market and stuff? This statement about the free market really makes no sense, unless you really expect your stuff for free. As for the thing about rules and oversight and regulations I believe I stated the opinion that some adjustment in the competitive landscape of the insurance industry is necessary, but that more significant gov’t involvement/investment in such an industry is most definitely not the answer.

that's the problem with liberals, they want free stuff. All they want is the government to take care of them

[HBox]

that's the problem with liberals, they want free stuff. All they want is the government to take care of them

Don't forget the abortions. We want plenty of them too.

[keithy_19]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5il892mEYzWO1CD8hZVloHcT8OukAD9ACI4D80

[somebody66]

The more I hear, see, and read about the current state of any health care reform frustrates the fuck right out of me. I can't understand how a guy runs his campaign on hope and change sits there and watches the special interest groups destroy his dream....If it was his dream? Why the fuck doesn't he just call them mother fuckers out, tell them that medical insurance is needed for every american....NOW!!!!! I voted for a what?

[spankyfrank]

He doesn't have complete control. He came up with the plan now congress has to pick apart everything to make sure its legal and if it's in their interest.

But I have a feeling it will be passed it's only a matter of time.

[JerseySean]

He doesn't have complete control. He came up with the plan now congress has to pick apart everything to make sure its legal and if it's in their interest.

But I have a feeling it will be passed it's only a matter of time.

He didnt come up wit a plan..........there is no single plan. thats the problem. There are 5 different bills and noone has read them

[angrymissy]

Don't forget the abortions. We want plenty of them too.

I plan on making the Government pay for fertility treatment so I can have them then pay for me to have 8 abortions at a time.

[JerseySean]

I plan on making the Government pay for fertility treatment so I can have them then pay for me to have 8 abortions at a time.

HOT

[epo]

He didnt come up wit a plan..........there is no single plan. thats the problem. There are 5 different bills and noone has read them

Here is the deal though, its not the President's role to write the bill. Let the legislators legislate, and give them parameters for what you'll pass. That's what he's done.

The President is holding up his end...now don't get me started on Harry Reid...because you might watch my head explode.

[JerseySean]

Here is the deal though, its not the President's role to write the bill. Let the legislators legislate, and give them parameters for what you'll pass. That's what he's done.

The President is holding up his end...now don't get me started on Harry Reid...because you might watch my head explode.

The President can get anything he wants in this bill or can have anything removed. This whole thing is a mess and its not going to pass.

[IMSlacker]

The President can get anything he wants in this bill or can have anything removed. This whole thing is a mess and its not going to pass.

I think it will pass.

The polls are wrong.

I know it for a fact.

[underdog]

The President can get anything he wants in this bill or can have anything removed. This whole thing is a mess and its not going to pass.

Sweet! Health care reform is going to pass!

[Gvac]

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s109/GregRotten/obama_tired.jpg

[epo]

The President can get anything he wants in this bill or can have anything removed. This whole thing is a mess and its not going to pass.

So his process of letting the legislative branch do their job is shit. And in 1994 when the Clinton's wrote the bill, that was shit too.

Which process works?

[HBox]

Factcheck.org finally looked into all these claims. The result? You can judge by the article's title: Twenty-six lies About H.R. 3200. (http://factcheck.org/2009/08/twenty-six-lies-about-hr-3200/) So, not well. What a shock. I'm FLOORED!

To expand on your first part, I agree that it should be left to one's own volition when giving of ourselves to help others. To have the Government mandate our charity (sweat equity) to people of the Government's choice seems to be the redistribution of income that President Obama laughed off during the campaign. I believe in charity, however I would like to have a say in where MY money goes and to what worthy causes.

The Public Option and the subsequent elimination of private insurance and healthcare providers that would eventually result is not the answer. There are other ways to reign in the Insurance companies. The Government can certainly take away the Intra-State barriers on policy sales that exist now. That would promote the greater competition that is a goal of Obama. Also they could reduce costs by reducing/policing the well documented fraud, waste and abuse that is rampant in the Medicare/Medicade system.
Being as that the aforementioned entities compose about 50% of healthcare costs in this country, it would reason that to stop some of the bleeding there, would have a significant impact on the Federal Budget Deficit going forward.

Finally for the 15 million that truly need health care and cannot afford it, I would back a Government assistance program in combination with premium ceilings imposed on the insurance industry would help get people the care they need.

The proposed legislation from the House (http://www.buythebill.com/downloads/HR3200.pdf)there are some things that jump out as me as a loss of rights and freedoms imposed on citizens for "the greater good".

page 42 Health Choices Commissioner will choose benefits FALSE
page 59 lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your banks accounts for electronic funds transfer FALSE
page 85 line 7 specifics of levels of 4 plans - rations care
page 195 employees of HC admin will have access to all Americans financial and personal records FALSE
page 341 lines 3-9 Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage plans. Forces you to Govt plan. First part true, government can cancel underperforming plans. Second part FALSE. All seniors have access to at least two Advantage plans.
page425 lines 4-12 Govt mandates advance [death] care planning consult. FALSE
page 425 lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult re- living wills, durable power of atty. Mandatory FALSE
page425 lines 22-25 page 426 lines 1-3 Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death. FALSE
page 427 lines 15-24 Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. FALSE
page 429 lines 1-9 An 'adv. care planning consult' will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates. FALSE
page 429 lines 10-12 'adv. care consult' may include an ORDER for end of life plans. FALSE
page 429 lines 13-25 Govt will specify which doctors can write an end of life order. FALSE
page 430 lines11-15 Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life. FALSE
page 632 lines 14-25 Govt may implement any 'quality measure' of HC services as they see fit.

Read the bill (http://www.buythebill.com/downloads/HR3200.pdf) for yourselves there is plenty more where that came from.

See right now in health care as we know it none of this off the wall stuff exists, now the Government proposes this "medical macabre for the masses." Why ? Why not fix the shit that is broken, help those who need help if we must and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

[Syd]

I still don't understand the logic behind a public option killing off private insurers.

[TheMojoPin]

I still don't understand the logic behind a public option killing off private insurers.

Or killing off the demographic that is far more likely to reliably donate to campaigns or party and actually vote than any other. This is applicable to both Democrats and Republicans: neither side would ever endorse a plan that "kills off" the elderly as quickly as possible. Outside of such a suggestion simply being insane, it runs completely counter to the basic goals of every single US politician: to be elected and to stay in office.

[HBox]

I still don't understand the logic behind a public option killing off private insurers.

It's difficult to square the "Government insurance will ration care and create long waits and destroy high quality care" argument with the "Government insurance will prove so incredibly popular that people will flock to it and abandon private insurance" argument.

[Gvac]

http://rashmanly.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/obamacommie.jpg

[Syd]

Still love how a center-right politician in America is a Communist. It's like anyone to the left of Pinochet is filthy commie. It's like reality took a back seat because people are shit scared of the ooga booga name having black guy is in the White House. At least we had a few years and some very probable murders before people started dialing up the crazy on Clinton. Guess that is how it goes.

[badmonkey]

Still love how a center-right politician in America is a Communist. It's like anyone to the left of Pinochet is filthy commie. It's like reality took a back seat because people are shit scared of the ooga booga name having black guy is in the White House. At least we had a few years and some very probable murders before people started dialing up the crazy on Clinton. Guess that is how it goes.

Yes, we know. Everybody that disagrees with Obama is a racist. What do you call the black people that disagree with him?

[Kevin]

Yet the Most Post wins has many more posts than this thread...

[Furtherman]

Yet the Most Post wins has many more posts than this thread...

Mental illness is an entirely different problem.

[epo]

Yes, we know. Everybody that disagrees with Obama is a racist. What do you call the black people that disagree with him?

Cute attempt at invalidating his point about center-right being not "right enough" for the current republican party. He's got a point that much of what is left in the republican party is the fringe.

Maybe that's why their only real remaining base is in the Deep South.

[Syd]

Yes, we know. Everybody that disagrees with Obama is a racist. What do you call the black people that disagree with him?

Not everybody that disagrees with Obama is a racist, but a lot of disagreement with Obama is due to his race. There's a certain amount of aggrandizing crazy going on -- from not believing he is American to the phony ascertainment that he was not properly elected because of Acorn signing up fraudulent voters. A lot of people can't accept that whites aren't going to be the majority any more and are scared of the paper bag test being applied to them.

If you don't believe race is involved that is fine. I wish I had that optimistic of an outlook but when I see socialist and Nazi and Communist applied to Obama in media, I see it as code word for nigger. Not so much as actually calling Obama a nigger, but more to the point of allowing people to rally around a word to paint a man as something with a word that has been manufactured to have a negative connotation through extensive ad and PR campaigns.

[IMSlacker]

Yes, we know. Everybody that disagrees with Obama is a racist. What do you call the black people that disagree with him?

Michael Steele

[Kevin]

Why even try, epo?

[epo]

Why even try, epo?

At the least someone can explain to me why BadMonkey has a subforum moderatorship for a radio network that doesn't really exist anymore?

[Dude!]

At the least someone can explain to me why BadMonkey has a subforum moderatorship for a radio network that doesn't really exist anymore?

that cheap shot
means BadMonkey won
the intellectual arguments

[Kevin]

At the least someone can explain to me why BadMonkey has a subforum moderatorship for a radio network that doesn't really exist anymore?

Its called Mod laziness...

[epo]

that cheap shot
means BadMonkey won
the intellectual arguments

So I cheapshot the Admins/Mods and BadMonkey wins?

Seriously...BadMonkey and I just may argue until the end of time...

[IMSlacker]

that cheap shot
means BadMonkey won
the intellectual arguments

epo's no HBox.

[IMSlacker]

So I cheapshot the Admins/Mods and BadMonkey wins?

Seriously...BadMonkey and I just may argue until the end of time...

I think he saw it as a shot at TINR. At least, that's how I took it.

[epo]

I think he saw it as a shot at TINR. At least, that's how I took it.

Does TINR even truly exist anymore?

[Dude!]

I think he saw it as a shot at TINR. At least, that's how I took it.

you're smarter than i first thought

[IMSlacker]

Does TINR even truly exist anymore?

It's still there. I don't think there are any live shows anymore. Just music.

[badmonkey]

At the least someone can explain to me why BadMonkey has a subforum moderatorship for a radio network that doesn't really exist anymore?

Not that it's any of your business or on topic with the discussion.

1) I don't have a "subforum moderatorship"
2) The radio station never needed a ronfez.net subforum for validation
3) That was the best you had and you're the one that looks dumb now, not me

[hanso]

I heard that Nixon wanted this back in 1971

[A.J.]

I heard that Nixon wanted this back in 1971

Yep. And Ted Kennedy later regretted not seizing the opportunity back then.

[epo]

Not that it's any of your business or on topic with the discussion.

1) I don't have a "subforum moderatorship"
2) The radio station never needed a ronfez.net subforum for validation
3) That was the best you had and you're the one that looks dumb now, not me

It was just about as on topic as you claiming that the left believes people who don't agree with the President as racists.

[Jujubees2]

Fear & loathing, not always facts, fuel health care forums in Florida and country: Undercover report (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/08/30/2009-08-30_fear__loathing_fuel_health_care_forums.html)

The woman who has four kids and no health insurance doesn't want the government to give her health insurance. Well lady, when you get sick and go to the hospital, who the hell do you think is paying for it?

[IMSlacker]

It was just about as on topic as you claiming that the left believes people who don't agree with the President as racists.

He is right though, the sub-forum isn't there anymore. They just never changed is mod-quote. I blame mikeyboy.

[epo]

He is right though, the sub-forum isn't there anymore. They just never changed is mod-quote. I blame mikeyboy.

Mikeyboy? Does anybody remember that guy?

[epo]

Fear & loathing, not always facts, fuel health care forums in Florida and country: Undercover report (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/08/30/2009-08-30_fear__loathing_fuel_health_care_forums.html)

The woman who has four kids and no health insurance doesn't want the government to give her health insurance. Well lady, when you get sick and go to the hospital, who the hell do you think is paying for it?

Nothing is better than watching enraged seniors yelling at their member of Congress about how they "want government to stay out of their Medicare"!

Umm...sorry to tell you, but....

[A.J.]

Nothing is better than watching enraged seniors yelling at their member of Congress about how they "want government to stay out of their Medicare"!

Umm...sorry to tell you, but....

And don't forget Social Security.

[Dude!]

Nothing is better than watching enraged seniors yelling at their member of Congress about how they "want government to stay out of their Medicare"!

Umm...sorry to tell you, but....

one thing i totally agree
with obama on
is that the old people
should be killed off

long live death panels!

[Syd]

I heard that Nixon wanted this back in 1971

And Eisenhower and both Franklin and Theodore Roosevelt.

[Jujubees2]

And Eisenhower and both Franklin and Theodore Roosevelt.

Damn socialists

[Doogie]

http://rashmanly.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/obamacommie.jpg

Ha ha ha...I love it. :clap::clap::clap:

BUT remember:

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/obama-watching-you.jpg

[shittles]

Ha ha ha...I love it. :clap::clap::clap:

BUT remember:

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/obama-watching-you.jpg

I love this. Hilarious. I'm going to print it off and show a couple of pals of mine at my yoga class.

[hammersavage]

I'm close enough to these people to hunt them down and smack them. 3:00 mark is high comedy

<table style="border:0px; padding:0px;"><tr><td><font style="font-size:13px; font-family:Verdana; font-weight:bold; font-color:#293546">Can there be any room for a centrist at a health care reform town hall meeting</font></td></tr><tr><td><script type="text/javascript" src="http://tribeca.vidavee.com/advance/trh/embedAsset.js?width=470.0&height=265.0&wmode=transparent&skin=v3AdvInt_nj.swf&dockey=E07A974F3313894234BFC96B818C9F42&"></script></td></tr></table>

[LordJezo]

People who do not support Obama are not being publicly mutilated in the streets:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/09/health-care-activist-bites-off-the-finger-of-a-counter-demonstrator.html

Not even surprising at all, it will start small and soon anyone who says anything against what Obama wants will be murdered, heads put on pikes in the town square to show others what going against the Lord of the country commands.

Sick, but expected.

[Doogie]

People who do not support Obama are not being publicly mutilated in the streets:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/09/health-care-activist-bites-off-the-finger-of-a-counter-demonstrator.html

Not even surprising at all, it will start small and soon anyone who says anything against what Obama wants will be murdered, heads put on pikes in the town square to show others what going against the Lord of the country commands.

Sick, but expected.

OK, I will state that I am not 100% for this bill, BUT you sir are a complete and utter moron to make a statement like that. There will not be heads on pikes, nor people murdered. This is one unfortunate incident and lets keep it at that.

[A.J.]

People who do not support Obama are not being publicly mutilated in the streets:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/09/health-care-activist-bites-off-the-finger-of-a-counter-demonstrator.html

Someone got digits!

[Kublakhan61]

I cannot begin to understand how someone could not support national health care. I don't know what more to add beyond the fact that the coverage of sensational town hall meetings FAR outweighs the dissemination of legit information culled form the health care bills -perhaps this is why people are so confused.

[HBox]

I cannot begin to understand how someone could not support national health care. I don't know what more to add beyond the fact that the coverage of sensational town hall meetings FAR outweighs the dissemination of legit information culled form the health care bills -perhaps this is why people are so confused.

In polls most people in the country are confused about what's in the bill. And that's not just taking people who think there are death panels in the bill or other lies, it's people who say they don't know what is in the bill. That's probably the biggest problem and it lies at the feet of the Obama and the Democrats and the media. The only people out making clear loud cases about these bills are lying about it.

[Bob Impact]

Someone got digits!

HA!

[HBox]

OK, I will state that I am not 100% for this bill, BUT you sir are a complete and utter moron to make a statement like that. There will not be heads on pikes, nor people murdered. This is one unfortunate incident and lets keep it at that.

That's just his bit. It's best to either ignore him or tease the retard.

[angrymissy]

Someone got digits!

You gotta chomp pretty hard to take an entire finger off, that's impressive. My sister and I got into a fight when we were kids where she was in the front seat and I was in the back, and I grabbed around to smack her or something, and she bit down on my finger as hard as she could. That shit hurt for weeks and got hella infected.

[Syd]

People who do not support Obama are not being publicly mutilated in the streets:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/09/health-care-activist-bites-off-the-finger-of-a-counter-demonstrator.html

Not even surprising at all, it will start small and soon anyone who says anything against what Obama wants will be murdered, heads put on pikes in the town square to show others what going against the Lord of the country commands.

Sick, but expected.

aww baby you're forgetting the best part of that story

Sheriffs deputies soon arrived. Kuns isn't sure where the finger biter took off to, but did see the bitten man walk in the direction of a hospital a couple blocks away. The AP has since reported that a hospital spokeswoman said the anti-reformer lost half his finger, though doctors reattached it and sent him home last night. "She says he had Medicare," the story states.

what the public taketh Obama giveth back

[angrymissy]

They're warping these old people's minds. They all have fucking Medicare and are headed out to protest "Socialist Health" because someone on the tv told them too.

[HBox]

aww baby you're forgetting the best part of that story



what the public taketh Obama giveth back

Seeing as nobody knows exactly what the guy was saying and, oh yeah, THE MAN JUST LOST HIS FINGER, it's probably best to leave him be.

[Doogie]

You gotta chomp pretty hard to take an entire finger off, that's impressive. My sister and I got into a fight when we were kids where she was in the front seat and I was in the back, and I grabbed around to smack her or something, and she bit down on my finger as hard as she could. That shit hurt for weeks and got hella infected.

Maybe this is the start of the zombie apocalypse. I need to go check and make sure my shotgun supply is at an adequate level now. It all starts people!! Get your guns, prepare for zombie attack!!!

[LordJezo]

aww baby you're forgetting the best part of that story



what the public taketh Obama giveth back

Medicare is not being forced on the population with taxes and fees for those who choose not to participate.

[KatPw]

Medicare is not being forced on the population with taxes and fees for those who choose not to participate.

My parents both paid into the medicare system and died right before they were able to participate in Medicare. I'd call that taxing people who did not participate.

[underdog]

They're warping these old people's minds. They all have fucking Medicare and are headed out to protest "Socialist Health" because someone on the tv told them too.

KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY MEDICARE!

[foodcourtdruide]

KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY MEDICARE!

When I lost everything and had to live in subsized housing and go on food stamps, no one helped me.

[Syd]

Medicare is not being forced on the population with taxes and fees for those who choose not to participate.

You don't have to use Medicare. However, given that the 65+ group isn't really ever going to be insured for a reasonable amount 90%+ of all seniors are on Medicare.

Also, they rate their satisfaction with Medicare far higher than most people rate their private insurers.

Socialized healthcare sure is a bitch!

[epo]

When I lost everything and had to live in subsized housing and go on food stamps, no one helped me.

Why do you bother to pay taxes? There obviously isn't a social safety net! Those basterds!

[brettmojo]

You gotta chomp pretty hard to take an entire finger off, that's impressive. My sister and I got into a fight when we were kids where she was in the front seat and I was in the back, and I grabbed around to smack her or something, and she bit down on my finger as hard as she could. That shit hurt for weeks and got hella infected.
http://mysomething.blogspot.com/cartman.bmp

"Man, that's hella lame."

[yojimbo7248]

It pisses me off when those on the right bitch about the cost of health care reform. They are such hypocrites. Why no bitch about the waste, corruption, and needless expenditures in the Pentagon? I didn't hear anyone on the right bitch about the cost of the Iraq war. How about the billions that still go to weapon systems designed to fight a Soviet Union-capability enemy? I also wish Obama didn't mind pissing off more people. If only we had a president that was honest about how the military industrial complex is out of control. I'd love to hear him say he is going to cut our DoD back drastically and use that money to ensure our 50 million citizens without health care are taken care of.

[Syd]

People say they want a reduced military budget but then go turn around and fetishize it. Wars are kaput, capitalism won. It's easier and more effective for a country to leverage a more debilitating weapon in the form of economic warfare than it is to bomb them. Subcomandante Marcos wrote extensively about economic warfare -- anything he has written for that matter is a good read.

[The Jays]

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[A.J.]

5 seconds of that Marge Gunderson-like accent was more than enough.

[underdog]

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Why is almost always old white people against health care reform?

[A.J.]

Why is almost always old white people against health care reform?

Because, like with social security, they are THAT close to reaping full benefit of the program and don't want to get shafted somehow.

[KatPw]

Why is almost always old white people against health care reform?

Because the watch Fox News? Only Fox News?

[HBox]

Because they only care about themselves and their own health care and take a fit anytime anything is proposed that might even remotely threaten their own benefits in even the slightest way possible.

And, judging by the last month, quite a few are profoundly stupid.

[Syd]

White entitlement complex.

[underdog]

My friend, who is a nurse, went to the town hall meeting in Somerville, MA last night, where John Kerry was. This was her report :

There actually were a few people with Obama/Hitler posters, and Kerry totally shut them down-- asking why they're so opposed to the government's involvement in healthcare when the current system is run almost exclusively by big corporations. One of the audience members tried to draw a parallel between the current situation and Nazi Germany, then (inexplicably) admitted to being a Medicare beneficiary. The crowd absolutely erupted in laughter; Kerry didn't even need to respond.

[Nick the Cock]

Sounds like an interesting book you are reading. My only concern would be the age in which it was written. I agree with almost everything you said. The sad part is that you get people that will still call you a communist and the like simply out of fear and what they have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a country where people like the Bush family go against better m.p.g.'s for vehicles because they have a vested interest in oil. The oil companies do everything in their power to stop electric cars and other forms of alternative energy simply because it CUTS INTO THEIR PROFIT MARGINS. They will lobby the U.S. government to in pursuit of their wants BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO DO SO. These same people even tell you global warming is a myth BECAUSE IT AFFECTS THEIR PROFIT MARGINS. Can you see the pattern here? It is all about the people with all the money getting more money. Health care is no different. They already rob you with outrageous premiums, they "ration" care by deciding where you can go and what you can claim. Anyone ever been told "that procedure isn't covered?" All the doctors who are already millionaires and living high on the hog are afraid they can't charge you $500.00 to "go see a specialist" and be charged another $1,000.00 for a broken arm. Meanwhile, if you are lucky enough to have an employer who provides health insurance or lucky enough to be able to afford it, you still get screwed! You usually have a $500.00 deductible and then the insurance company only pays 80%. Sometimes, THEY WILL NOT COVER IT AT ALL! People are starting to figure it out. When everyone wakes up and realizes that all the rich doctors, oil executives, and others in high places don't care about you and your family, but rather that new yacht they have been eying, things will change. These people are totally dependent upon idiots calling other people communists and ridiculing them for "liberal ideas." They are laughing at you all the way to the bank. As long as they have these people around, things will stay the same and they will get richer. Over half of the bankruptcies in the U.S. are caused by medical bills that cannot be paid. Aren't you proud of our failed system? It is far past the time for a new one.

[moochcassidy]

anybody know where to find info on town hall meetings coming up in NY/NJ?

[HBox]

anybody know where to find info on town hall meetings coming up in NY/NJ?

You will have to go to representatives websites to find out. But Congress is going back into session so they are all pretty much done for now.

[Syd]

Now there's a fiscal incentive for insurance companies to allow people to die:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/business/06insurance.html?_r=2&em

After the mortgage business imploded last year, Wall Street investment banks began searching for another big idea to make money. They think they may have found one.

The bankers plan to buy “life settlements,” life insurance policies that ill and elderly people sell for cash — $400,000 for a $1 million policy, say, depending on the life expectancy of the insured person. Then they plan to “securitize” these policies, in Wall Street jargon, by packaging hundreds or thousands together into bonds. They will then resell those bonds to investors, like big pension funds, who will receive the payouts when people with the insurance die.

lol

[HBox]

Now there's a fiscal incentive for insurance companies to allow people to die:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/business/06insurance.html?_r=2&em



lol

That's already been going on for quite a while. They been calling them "reverse mortgages." There was one case I remember where a woman who took one out lived so long and the bank was so much money on it that the bank sued her to try and stop making payments.

[badmonkey]

Now there's a fiscal incentive for insurance companies to allow people to die:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/business/06insurance.html?_r=2&em



lol

That would actually be a fiscal incentive for a bank to allow people to die. The bank is essentially betting that they will pay out less money over the person's life than they will get from their insurance policies when they die. The life insurance company pays out the same regardless.

[Syd]

That would actually be a fiscal incentive for a bank to allow people to die. The bank is essentially betting that they will pay out less money over the person's life than they will get from their insurance policies when they die. The life insurance company pays out the same regardless.

Business is incestuous enough that healthcare providers will cover all their bases by buying into these bonds.

[moochcassidy]

are the death camps hiring?

[PapaBear]

are the death camps hiring?
Death PANELS you foreigner! And, yes. They are.

[moochcassidy]

Death PANELS you foreigner! And, yes. They are.

sorry about that. sounds like a job I'd be perfect for

[PapaBear]

sorry about that. sounds like a job I'd be perfect for
Killing the old and terminal? NO NO NO!!! It's very difficult. Don't even try to get the job.


Don't worry, folks. I convinced him to stay away. Death Panel jobs are for AMERICANS!

[underdog]

are the death camps hiring?

Death PANELS you foreigner! And, yes. They are.

Death squads come in phase 2. I'm hoping to get a job with that.

[Syd]

http://kimag.es/share/25706107.jpg

[epo]

Just a philsophical question: I know that people are concerned that more access to care could lead to "rationing" of care, but isn't the current system of coverage for some and not all just a different way of "rationing"?

[Syd]

Just a philsophical question: I know that people are concerned that more access to care could lead to "rationing" of care, but isn't the current system of coverage for some and not all just a different way of "rationing"?

Of course it's rationed -- if you're too poor to afford it, you're the one rationed out. So don't become unemployed or have an illness so severe it exceeds your ability to pay for it.

How many people are killed per year so that others can receive care instead, you might ask?

WASHINGTON, Jan 8 (Reuters) - France, Japan and Australia rated best and the United States worst in new rankings focusing on preventable deaths due to treatable conditions in 19 leading industrialized nations, researchers said on Tuesday.

If the U.S. health care system performed as well as those of those top three countries, there would be 101,000 fewer deaths in the United States per year, according to researchers writing in the journal Health Affairs.

Researchers Ellen Nolte and Martin McKee of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine tracked deaths that they deemed could have been prevented by access to timely and effective health care, and ranked nations on how they did.

They called such deaths an important way to gauge the performance of a country's health care system.

Nolte said the large number of Americans who lack any type of health insurance -- about 47 million people in a country of about 300 million, according to U.S. government estimates -- probably was a key factor in the poor showing of the United States compared to other industrialized nations in the study.

"I wouldn't say it (the last-place ranking) is a condemnation, because I think health care in the U.S. is pretty good if you have access. But if you don't, I think that's the main problem, isn't it?" Nolte said in a telephone interview.

In establishing their rankings, the researchers considered deaths before age 75 from numerous causes, including heart disease, stroke, certain cancers, diabetes, certain bacterial infections and complications of common surgical procedures.

Such deaths accounted for 23 percent of overall deaths in men and 32 percent of deaths in women, the researchers said.

France did best -- with 64.8 deaths deemed preventable by timely and effective health care per 100,000 people, in the study period of 2002 and 2003. Japan had 71.2 and Australia had 71.3 such deaths per 100,000 people. The United States had 109.7 such deaths per 100,000 people, the researchers said.

After the top three, Spain was fourth best, followed in order by Italy, Canada, Norway, the Netherlands, Sweden, Greece, Austria, Germany, Finland, New Zealand, Denmark, Britain, Ireland and Portugal, with the United States last.

101,000 people killed per year due to lack of or insufficient medical care.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN07651650

[KatPw]

Just a philsophical question: I know that people are concerned that more access to care could lead to "rationing" of care, but isn't the current system of coverage for some and not all just a different way of "rationing"?

And care is rationed in other ways also. If your insurance company will only pay for an MRI once every 5 years, and you need one sooner because of an additional illness/injury isn't that rationing?