National Health Care Debate

[HBox]

Everybody should read this article before coming to the conclusion that our health is in better hands in the private sector. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32729358/ns/health-more_health_news/)

A few examples from the article on rescission and the lengths to which insurers will go to not cover you.

They said I never mentioned I had a back problem," said Marrari, 52, whose coverage with Blue Cross was abruptly canceled in 2006 after a thyroid disorder, fluid in the heart and lupus were diagnosed. That left the Los Angeles woman with $25,000 in medical bills and the stigma of the company's claim that she had committed fraud by not listing on a health questionnaire "preexisting conditions" Marrari said she did not know she had.

...

In the only case to go to trial in California, an arbitration judge awarded $9 million to a beautician who had to stop chemotherapy for her breast cancer after Health Net dropped her policy. Company officials declined to comment.

...

In a pending case, Blue Shield searched in vain for an inconsistency in the health records of the wife of a dairy farmer after she filed a claim for emergency gallbladder surgery, according to attorneys for the family. Turning to her husband's questionnaire, the company discovered he had not mentioned his high cholesterol and dropped them both. Blue Shield officials said they would not comment on a pending case.

...

Yvette Thomassian of Glendale, Calif., lost her Blue Cross policy because she did not declare a deviated septum. She questioned why a common misalignment of the nostrils would disqualify anyone but emphasized that her doctor never clearly indicated she had the condition. They spoke Armenian in the exam room, she said, where the physician's words were "You have a bone in your nose."

...

For Teresa Dietrich, it was fibroids. The Northern California real estate agent was left to pay $19,000 after Blue Cross said she did not disclose a diagnosis of the benign uterine tumors. But Dietrich said the doctor who had written "fibroids" on her medical record never mentioned his suspicions to her. The bills destroyed her credit and cost her her home — and, in a comically cruel twist, the surgery proved the doctor was wrong.

"They said I had a condition I didn't even have," Dietrich said. "And they canceled me."

[Syd]

So it looks like the new "bipartisan" plan (read: republican) is to -force- people to get insurance, under the pain of fine. So now instead of fixing healthcare, they're going to increase their revenue by a great deal.

[HBox]

So it looks like the new "bipartisan" plan (read: republican) is to -force- people to get insurance, under the pain of fine. So now instead of fixing healthcare, they're going to increase their revenue by a great deal.

That's an individual mandate. And if we force insurers to insure everyone we have to have it. Otherwise people will enroll for insurance when they are sick and drop it when they don't need it anymore. That will break the system.

Without it there will not be universal coverage.

[Syd]

No, it's about forcing people to have insurance that they won't actually be able to use. Furthermore, we'll be indirectly subsidizing the insurance companies by funneling tax money (the rebates for insurance) straight into private corporations. This is exactly what Republicans have to do now -- they've already destroyed all means of genuine middle class growth, now they need to destroy the remnants by taking directly from them and giving to their corporate sponsors.

[keithy_19]

No, it's about forcing people to have insurance that they won't actually be able to use. Furthermore, we'll be indirectly subsidizing the insurance companies by funneling tax money (the rebates for insurance) straight into private corporations. This is exactly what Republicans have to do now -- they've already destroyed all means of genuine middle class growth, now they need to destroy the remnants by taking directly from them and giving to their corporate sponsors.

It's like Jezo-left...

[HBox]

No, it's about forcing people to have insurance that they won't actually be able to use. Furthermore, we'll be indirectly subsidizing the insurance companies by funneling tax money (the rebates for insurance) straight into private corporations. This is exactly what Republicans have to do now -- they've already destroyed all means of genuine middle class growth, now they need to destroy the remnants by taking directly from them and giving to their corporate sponsors.

If the bill doesn't contain regulations requiring minimum levels of care, yeah that will happen. But that's not the case yet.

But you simply cannot have a plan that stops employers from excluding people with pre-existing conditions and not have a mandate. There will be no reason whatsoever for healthy people to have insurance if they can enroll the second they get sick and drop it the second they are fine again. It would not only destroy the insurance companies it would destroy the health care system. The whole insurance system is dependent upon healthy people paying more into the system than they take out to cover the costs of the sick. If the healthy people disappeared from the equation the sick would be paying for themselves, premiums would skyrocket past the point anyone could afford them and the whole system would be pointless.

[Syd]

There are standards now requiring minimum levels of care but they're easily circumvented now -- given how much influence has been shown by insurers how are there any reasonable safeguards against that from happening?

Furthermore, premiums are skyrocketing now. They go up in orders of magnitude over the years and will consume 1/5th of consumer spending. That means anything more than a pittance of a house payment and a car payment puts you under an unhealthy amount of economic duress. That's not even considering that inevitably copays and/or deductibles will increase just the same as profit mandates by shareholders become more and more loud.

None, because it is written to be the most favorable possible bill for insurers. Not a single one of the gang of six is even remotely progressive -- they're in it for one thing and one thing only, increasing their own wealth by serving up the best legislation possible for their corporate sponsors.

[HBox]

There are standards now requiring minimum levels of care but they're easily circumvented now -- given how much influence has been shown by insurers how are there any reasonable safeguards against that from happening?

Furthermore, premiums are skyrocketing now. They go up in orders of magnitude over the years and will consume 1/5th of consumer spending. That means anything more than a pittance of a house payment and a car payment puts you under an unhealthy amount of economic duress. That's not even considering that inevitably copays and/or deductibles will increase just the same as profit mandates by shareholders become more and more loud.

None, because it is written to be the most favorable possible bill for insurers. Not a single one of the gang of six is even remotely progressive -- they're in it for one thing and one thing only, increasing their own wealth by serving up the best legislation possible for their corporate sponsors.

You've gone into negative-death panel zone. And your baseless paranoia is doing just a much to destroy intelligent discourse as the death panel lunatics. Congratulations.

[TheMojoPin]

It's like Jezo-left...

Indeed.

[Furtherman]

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[GregoryJoseph]

So you can opt to stay in your current plan but STILL have to pay more taxes to pay for those who opt for the government one? :unsure: :blink:

[Syd]

You've gone into negative-death panel zone. And your baseless paranoia is doing just a much to destroy intelligent discourse as the death panel lunatics. Congratulations.

How is it paranoia that this bill wildly benefits insurance companies? There's no incentive for costs to come down at all.

[foodcourtdruide]

So you can opt to stay in your current plan but STILL have to pay more taxes to pay for those who opt for the government one? :unsure: :blink:

But the cost of your current plan will go down because insurance companies will have competition from the government.

[TooLowBrow]

But the cost of your current plan will go down because insurance companies will have competition from the government.

and many insurance companies will go out of business when they cant compete with govt prices and make enough to pay their employees.

less jobs!

bigger govt!

[foodcourtdruide]

and many insurance companies will go out of business when they cant compete with govt prices and make enough to pay their employees.

less jobs!

bigger govt!

Wouldn't the government have to provide jobs to make this work?

Same amount of jobs.

Lower insurance costs.

Bigger government, agreed. I'm not crazy about it either, but I like the alternative much less.

[TheMojoPin]

How is this "bigger government" for the people satisifed with their current insurance carriers? Is it really "bigger government" (in the ominous sense that people love to lazily toss that term around with) for all the people without insurance or struggling to stay insured?

[TooLowBrow]

i dont have insurance

i dont want it

i dont want to be fined because i dont have it

[TheMojoPin]

i dont have insurance

i dont want it

i dont want to be fined because i dont have it

It really wouldn't make much sense to not have it if there's a public option we're all paying into with our taxes. You're paying into it regardless, just like the military and Social Security and Medicaid and so on and so on.

Honestly, it's arguably selfish to refuse to have any kind of insurance unless you plan on never needing significant medical care ever again and are just going to drop dead into a grave in your own backyard because it's practically a lock you won't be able to afford it unless you're wealthy.

[TooLowBrow]

It really wouldn't make much sense to not have it if there's a public option we're all paying into with our taxes. You're paying into it regardless, just like the military and Social Security and Medicaid and so on and so on.

Honestly, it's arguably selfish to refuse to have any kind of insurance unless you plan on never needing significant medical care ever again and are just going to drop dead into a grave in your own backyard because it's practically a lock you won't be able to afford it unless you're wealthy.

thats true.

how much more would i be paying in taxes?

[TheMojoPin]

thats true.

how much more would i be paying in taxes?

Right now? Nothing. Down the line? Something. I don't know the exact answer.

[HBox]

and many insurance companies will go out of business when they cant compete with govt prices and make enough to pay their employees.

less jobs!

bigger govt!

And if people go to the government plan because it spends less money to provide the same quality as does insurance companies that's a good thing. It saves the country money and restrains health care costs. And if the quality of care stays the same then those jobs weren't contributing anything anyway.

[underdog]

i dont have insurance

i dont want it

i dont want to be fined because i dont have it

Too bad.

If you get injured, someone is going to have to pay for it.

[TooLowBrow]

Too bad.

If you get injured, someone is going to have to pay for it.

me

[TheMojoPin]

me

Again, unless you're wealthy it's very unlikely you'll be able to afford the medical care necessary for any kind of serious injury or illness.

[epo]

This little fucker is smart.....

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[TooLowBrow]

Again, unless you're wealthy it's very unlikely you'll be able to afford the medical care necessary for any kind of serious injury or illness.

im a christian scientist.
i dont believe in doctors and medicine
if i get sick ill pray
so please dont make me get health insurance, its a waste of my money

[underdog]

This little fucker is smart.....

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I wish posts in a thread could be merged.

[GregoryJoseph]

i dont have insurance

i dont want it

i dont want to be fined because i dont have it

You may want to rethink this.

When I left my last job two years ago I was informed by my new employer that I wasn't eligible for their insurance until I was there 6 months.

My options were to pay for COBRA to keep myself covered or gamble and save a ton of money.

I decided to keep the health insurance, even though I'd never been sick or in a hospital in my life.

Two months later by gall bladder burst.

Without the hospitalization coverage I would've been out over $12,000.

Never say never, my friend.

God forbid you get cancer or something that requires extremely costly treatments. You'll not only be unable to afford it, but you'll never get insurance with a pre-existing condition.

[TooLowBrow]

You may want to rethink this.

When I left my last job two years ago I was informed by my new employer that I wasn't eligible for their insurance until I was there 6 months.

My options were to pay for COBRA to keep myself covered or gamble and save a ton of money.

I decided to keep the health insurance, even though I'd never been sick or in a hospital in my life.

Two months later by gall bladder burst.

Without the hospitalization coverage I would've been out over $12,000.

Never say never, my friend.

God forbid you get cancer or something that requires extremely costly treatments. You'll not only be unable to afford it, but you'll never get insurance with a pre-existing condition.

it is gods will if i get cancer

who am i to fight gods will?

[TheMojoPin]

im a christian scientist.
i dont believe in doctors and medicine
if i get sick ill pray
so please dont make me get health insurance, its a waste of my money

Hah!

Touche, sir. Toooooooooooooouche.

[Furtherman]

This little fucker is smart.....

I wish posts in a thread could be merged.

Seriously epo, on the same page too. C'maan.

[booster11373]

I guess everyone is at the gym getting ready to Obama health care speech

[Furtherman]

I guess everyone is at the gym getting ready to Obama health care speech

They take a long time to shower.

[foodcourtdruide]

I'm going to guess that no matter what Obama says, Jezo will say this is a sign of the apocolypse.

[foodcourtdruide]

How is this "bigger government" for the people satisifed with their current insurance carriers? Is it really "bigger government" (in the ominous sense that people love to lazily toss that term around with) for all the people without insurance or struggling to stay insured?

I agree with you. That's why I say the alternative is worse.

[9mileskid]

can they pixilate nancy pelosis ugly mug while i'm watching this

[TheMojoPin]

Gotta love the people flat out refusing to even just applaud when the President straight up says this is a plan to get health insurance to people who don't have it.

[hammersavage]

Gotta love the people flat out refusing to even just applaud when the President straight up says this is a plan to get health insurance to people who don't have it.

its really awful

[K.C.]

Is there a Live from the Compound simulcast of this event? Has Anthony taken his authentic Hitler cyanide capsule after hearing this?

[Furtherman]

A good thing jack jack isn't there

[Brad_Rush]

I think this might be his best speech yet. He's hitting all the points well and finally showing some teeth

[TooLowBrow]

Gotta love the people flat out refusing to even just applaud when the President straight up says this is a plan to get health insurance to people who don't have it.

maybe theyre christian scientists.

being led to pay for something our religion forbids

i guess the president's beliefs mean more than mine do

[epo]

can they pixilate nancy pelosis ugly mug while i'm watching this

Fuck that, in HD you can see her cry.

[ToiletCrusher]

I want free health care.

I'd give it to an illegal alien.

[booster11373]

Is this opposition response thing all ways been around?

[foodcourtdruide]

Republicans looked like babies not clapping. Obama took a shot at Bush administration. It looks like the lines are drawn.

On a side note, could the republicans have picked a less charasmatic guy to rebuke Obama? He keeps saying "government run healthcare", that is such a hyperbole.

[foodcourtdruide]

Is this opposition response thing all ways been around?

Yes, but not during USA! USA! USA! period circa 2001/2002

[IMSlacker]

Is this opposition response thing all ways been around?

Yes.

[IMSlacker]

Republicans looked like babies not clapping. Obama took a shot at Bush administration. It looks like the lines are drawn.

On a side note, could the republicans have picked a less charasmatic guy to rebuke Obama? He keeps saying "government run healthcare", that is such a hyperbole.

They could have rolled out Bobby Jindal again.

[K.C.]

HAHAHAHA...Fox News is the best.

Immediately following the speeches, their first commercial is a PAC against government run health care saying that Canada kills its patients!
:lol:

[angrymissy]

Christian scientists can opt out if their religion forbids healthcare... Amish can opt of out social security as it is now.

[Furtherman]

Lucky fake fireplace barn raisin' bastards.

[epo]

That rebuttal made me yearn for the days of Bobby Jindal.

[K.C.]

For your fair and balanced analysis, FOX Sr. Political Analyst, Karl Rove

"death panel! death panel! death panel!"

[epo]

Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) is apparently the heckler.

Classy.

[foodcourtdruide]

One of the most bizarre things about republicans to me is their insane hatred of Illegal Immigrants. The amount of hatred they have for them seems so disproportionate to the negative impact they have on the country.

[foodcourtdruide]

Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) is apparently the heckler.

Classy.

What did he say? That's the first time I've ever seen a President heckled like that in a national address.

[HBox]

One of the most bizarre things about republicans to me is their insane hatred of Illegal Immigrants. The amount of hatred they have for them seems so disproportionate to the negative impact they have on the country.

And guess what's on the agenda for next year?

I think I might leave the country until they are done debating that one.

[epo]

One of the most bizarre things about republicans to me is their insane hatred of Illegal Immigrants. The amount of hatred they have for them seems so disproportionate to the negative impact they have on the country.

I have a cousin who, like myself has a psuedo-public role in politics, except he's a republican. In public he goes on and on about illegal immigrants being the downfall of the nation.

I can't wait to remind him in public that OUR great grandfather was an illegal immigrant in his time.

[GregoryJoseph]

Gotta love the people flat out refusing to even just applaud when the President straight up says this is a plan to get health insurance to people who don't have it.

its really awful

Unfortunate the Republicans did not show the President of the United States the respect he is due, even if he is from the opposing party.

They should have taken a page from the Democrats' book when George W. Bush was the Commander In Chief.

They stood and applauded whenever he said he wanted to do something to help the country.
























Didn't they?

[K.C.]

One of the most bizarre things about republicans to me is their insane hatred of Illegal Immigrants. The amount of hatred they have for them seems so disproportionate to the negative impact they have on the country.

They're fucking assholes!!! They come here and make our food and clean our houses and pick our crops and wash our dishes and mow our lawns! The nerve of these animals!!! Fuck them!!!!

http://blog.cleveland.com/ent_impact_tv/2008/12/large_anthony-cumia.jpg

[epo]

What did he say? That's the first time I've ever seen a President heckled like that in a national address.

He just yelled "liar" or "you're lying" (I couldn't tell) during the President's bit about illegals not being covered under the bill.

[HBox]

Unfortunate the Republicans did not show the President of the United States the respect he is due, even if he is from the opposing party.

They should have taken a page from the Democrats' book when George W. Bush was the Commander In Chief.

They stood and applauded whenever he said he wanted to do something to help the country.
























Didn't they?

They usually stood for innocuous statements like "Our country is strong" or "The troops are heros" or shit like that. Other than that it was sit down with arms folded for anything they didn't like.

[foodcourtdruide]

And guess what's on the agenda for next year?

I think I might leave the country until they are done debating that one.

They get so angry over it and it never makes sense to me. It would cost too much money to find and deport all of them, and it makes no sense to destroy so many families.

It makes so much sense to me that the best way is to give a realistic path to citizenship for those that are already here, and improve border security/enforce visa laws more in the future.

It just really strikes a chord in their nationalistic pride in a way that I cannot understand.

[foodcourtdruide]

He just yelled "liar" or "you're lying" (I couldn't tell) during the President's bit about illegals not being covered under the bill.

Lol, I swear to God. It was while they were talking about illegal immigrants not being covered on the bill and I thought he said "LIKE YOU'RE MOM!" I was like, "Oh shit!"

[HBox]

For your fair and balanced analysis, FOX Sr. Political Analyst, Karl Rove

"death panel! death panel! death panel!"

He wrote an op-ed for the WSJ declaring the speech a failure. it was posted on the WSJ website before the speech happened.

Whoops.

[TooLowBrow]

He wrote an op-ed for the WSJ declaring the speech a failure. it was posted on the WSJ website before the speech happened.

Whoops.

dont they usually leak the transcript ahead of time?

[HBox]

dont they usually leak the transcript ahead of time?

Yeah, but he might have wanted to wait and watch the thing in case they change something, which they do sometimes.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

One of the most bizarre things about republicans to me is their insane hatred of Illegal Immigrants. The amount of hatred they have for them seems so disproportionate to the negative impact they have on the country.

Republicans love illegal aliens, they can hire them at dirt cheap wages, not provide them any workers comp, drop them off at the ER if they get hurt on the job. its a win win situation for them

The issue of illegal immigration will never be solved if the employers are not held accountable

[TooLowBrow]

Yeah, but he might have wanted to wait and watch the thing in case they change something, which they do sometimes.

the pres should change a bunch of stuff during the state of the union

then, when the other party has to read that prepared response right afterward,

its seem like they didnt listen to the right speech

[foodcourtdruide]

Republicans love illegal aliens, they can hire them at dirt cheap wages, not provide them any workers comp, drop them off at the ER if they get hurt on the job. its a win win situation for them

The issue of illegal immigration will never be solved if the employers are not held accountable

You'd think this was the case, but socially conservatives act like illegal immigrants are ruining America. I think the issue of illegal immigration will never be solved until more reasonable paths to citizenship are presented. People who want to come here just to work should not live under the thread of deportation. It makes no sense at all.

[K.C.]

Pretty much all the Republican response has been that it's a pipe dream because he's going to put out the public option without making a choice to raise taxes or cut care quality.

Didn't he make it abundantly clear that it'll have certain premiums that fund the operation of the public option and that the unit would have to fiscally solvent or other spending would be cut?

They seem to neglect this in their analysis.

[HBox]

the pres should change a bunch of stuff during the state of the union

then, when the other party has to read that prepared response right afterward,

its seem like they didnt listen to the right speech

I'm surprised that hasn't happened already.

In fact, I'm surprised Karl Rove didn't do that already.

[foodcourtdruide]

Pretty much all the Republican response has been that it's a pipe dream because he's going to put out the public option without making a choice to raise taxes or cut care quality.

Didn't he make it abundantly clear that it'll have certain premiums that fund the operation of the public option and that the unit would have to fiscally solvent or other spending would be cut?

They seem to neglect this in their analysis.

Yeah, they completely ignored the fiscally solvent part, and that's why they I can't take them seriously. They only care about making Obama fail. This tactic will utlimately bite them in the ass, and it currently is.

[Melk]

They usually stood for innocuous statements like "Our country is strong" or "The troops are heros" or shit like that. Other than that it was sit down with arms folded for anything they didn't like.
Right.

But this heckling gimmick seems like a ploy for attention. If Obama's policies continue to receive such resistance, that representative will be one of the Republican's lead candidates in 2012.

Just remember, "Obama is a Nazi for wanting to secure health care for the nation's poor and uninsurable."

[booster11373]

Has any President been heckled before at a joint session of congress?

[TheMojoPin]

Unfortunate the Republicans did not show the President of the United States the respect he is due, even if he is from the opposing party.

They should have taken a page from the Democrats' book when George W. Bush was the Commander In Chief.

They stood and applauded whenever he said he wanted to do something to help the country.
























Didn't they?

Outside of the post-9/11 and immediately post-invasion of Iraq periods, no.

I am of course not saying that opposition figures should not make their opposition known by not applauding since that's been something that's gone on since day one. Hell, the opposition now is infinitely more civil than it has been over our history. My point was in reference to the specific refusal to applaud the general idea that health care should be affordable for all Americans. I cannot imagine how anyone can genuinely be opposed to that basic idea, regardless of how they think that should be accomplished.

On a side note, I'm curious as to why you continually make these comments that seem to imply that partisan politics could be avoided in any kind of democracy or democratic government. They can't: they're inherrent to actually having a democratic process. Hell, a parliamentary system would just increase the the partisanship. The American government is far more centralized and actually non-partisan than any other democratic government in the world.

[HBox]

Has any President been heckled before at a joint session of congress?

A Senator once called Millard Fillmore a shit-eating pedophile.

[K.C.]

But this heckling gimmick seems like a ploy for attention. If Obama's policies continue to receive such resistance, that representative will be one of the Republican's lead candidates in 2012.


I absolutely GUARANTEE that Hannity will have this guy on his radio show for an hour tomorrow, the guy will talk about how he was moved by the holy spirit of Ronald Reagan that filled the chamber to expose the socialist policies that threaten our way of life, and Hannity will tout the guy as a great American hero.

[foodcourtdruide]

A Senator once called Millard Fillmore a shit-eating pedophile.

My wife was wondering why I was cracking up during the most tense moment of Top Chef after reading this.

[TooLowBrow]

I cannot imagine how anyone can genuinely be opposed to that basic idea, regardless of how they think that should be accomplished.


maybe they agree with the ends, but oppose the means.

so they dont applaud

[foodcourtdruide]

maybe they agree with the ends, but oppose the means.

so they dont applaud

I know libertarians who philosophically disagree wiht it.

[TheMojoPin]

maybe they agree with the ends, but oppose the means.

so they dont applaud

So don't applaud when the means are brought up. Sitting there doing nothing when the general idea is brought up is just foolish and shortsighted.

[keithy_19]

A Senator once called Millard Fillmore a shit-eating pedophile.

I laughed loudly at this.

[K.C.]

I know libertarians who philosophically disagree wiht it.

I really don't have a strong opinion either way on the issue, but the Republicans do themselves such a disservice as a party when they take the positions they do. Just discuss the party's philosophy honestly.

Someone saying they believe that healthcare is a service rendered by people who specialize in the field, and therefore should be treated as any other business arrangement, is a fundamental disagreement and one that has legs.

Making a connection between government influence and a road to stronger restriction on personal freedom is another valid criticism.

There's many different philosophical arguments they could make, but they waste their time on insisting it'll raise taxes (not proven), and institute things like death panels (not true) and healthcare for illegal immigrants (already exists...it's called ER).

[TooLowBrow]

So don't applaud when the means are brought up. Sitting there doing nothing when the general idea is brought up is just foolish and shortsighted.

youd applaud certain parts of hitler speeches

[foodcourtdruide]

youd applaud certain parts of hitler speeches

lol what?!

[TooLowBrow]

lol what?!

he thinks people should applaud if they approve the end results no matter how these results are brought about

[Brad_Rush]

he thinks people should applaud if they approve the end results no matter how these results are brought about

wait, what?

[foodcourtdruide]

he thinks people should applaud if they approve the end results no matter how these results are brought about

He's the President and they are Congress! Republicans and Obama are not as far apart politically as Mojo and Hitler. It's an odd comparison.

[K.C.]

He's the President and they are Congress! Republicans and Obama are not as far apart politically as Mojo and Hitler. It's an odd comparison.

You obviously don't know Mojo...as a communist he wishes all religion eradicated. What's the difference if it starts with Judaism. And who cares about the means if it gets to the end?

[TheMojoPin]

he thinks people should applaud if they approve the end results no matter how these results are brought about

That's not what I said at all.

[TooLowBrow]

That's not what I said at all.

so why should they applaud if they dont like the means?

[foodcourtdruide]

so why should they applaud if they dont like the means?

Because no matter what George Bush said previously, Democrats would always applaud if he said something positive about our troops. There are just some basic things politicians in this country are behind.

[TooLowBrow]

Because no matter what George Bush said previously, Democrats would always applaud if he said something positive about our troops. There are just some basic things politicians in this country are behind.

not all of them.

what if hes like... 'our troops are winning in iraq. we want them all to be safe'

i wouldnt applaud because i dont even think they should be there

and my point of view is more pro- troops, because i want them home safe.

im not going to applaud their condition in a dangerous area when its brought up by the person who put them there, for an unnecessary reason

i wouldnt applaud a liar

[TheMojoPin]

so why should they applaud if they dont like the means?

I didn't say they should applaud when he was going into the specifics of the Democrats' plan. My point, as I made clear, is that it was petty when they refused to applaud when he was discussing the BROAD, GENERAL idea of health care reform and finding a way make sure all Americans have access to affordable health care. The Republicans are not opposed to those two basic ideas.

[foodcourtdruide]

not all of them.

what if hes like... 'our troops are winning in iraq. we want them all to be safe'

i wouldnt applaud because i dont even think they should be there

and my point of view is more pro- troops, because i want them home safe.

im not going to applaud their condition in a dangerous area when its brought up by the person who put them there, for an unnecessary reason

i wouldnt applaud a liar


Democrats would have applauded the "our troups are winning in iraq, we want them to be safe" line. However, they may not have applauded, "the surge is working" or something like that.

[PD]

Pretty much all the Republican response has been that it's a pipe dream because he's going to put out the public option without making a choice to raise taxes or cut care quality.

Didn't he make it abundantly clear tthat it'll have certain premiums that fund the operation of the public option and that the unit would have to fiscally solvent or other spending would be cut?
They seem to neglect this in their analysis.

I thought they brought up several issues that the president specifically wouldn't happen, like raising the deficit (as you said) and the mandatory public healthcare and rationing of healthcare- with only a grudging acknowledgment that the president mentioned malpractice reform and some of Sen McCain's ideas.

I didn't see it mentioned, but it also was the first time I can remember hearing a few boos during the speech - and if I remember correctly, from liberals when the illegal aliens wouldn't be covered.

[TooLowBrow]

I didn't say they should applaud when he was going into the specifics of the Democrats' plan. My point, as I made clear, is that it was petty when they refused to applaud when he was discussing the BROAD, GENERAL idea of health care reform and finding a way make sure all Americans have access to affordable health care.

maybe they dont think we should all have affordable health care

maybe they think that if healthcare is a luxury it will encourage people to work harder to attain it

maybe they see increased worker productivity and drive as something that is more important than the health of individuals

it seems mean, but some people put country ahead of self
and want us to be the 'greatest nation'
people who work the hardest to have the things they need and want

[TooLowBrow]

Democrats would have applauded the "our troups are winning in iraq, we want them to be safe" line. However, they may not have applauded, "the surge is working" or something like that.

i wouldnt applaud, id say, 'if you want them safe, bring them home. they were safe and you made them unsafe. im not applauding the man who made them unsafe and is telling me that he wants them safe.'

[K.C.]

I just heard the greatest thing I've heard since the Canadian chick saying the Canadian government kills its patients in those commercials...

Hannity just attacked Obama for not being patriotic enough to point out the greatness of America's health system, "the envy of the world," with it's continual and great cutting edge advances.

That's right, the same Sean Hannity who was firmly behind the banning of stem cell research in this country the last eight years which has set this country at a total disadvantage in the field and at finding any breakthroughs as a result.

[TheMojoPin]

maybe they dont think we should all have affordable health care

maybe they think that if healthcare is a luxury it will encourage people to work harder to attain it

maybe they see increased worker productivity and drive as something that is more important than the health of individuals

So people who can't afford health care and insurance now aren't working hard enough to have it?

And what if people get sick or injured due to all that hard work beforethey get the coverage?

This is a very unrealistic and inhumane approach to this issue.

[IMSlacker]

Joe Wilson apologizes. (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/09/joe.wilson/)

"This evening, I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the president's remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill," the statement said. "While I disagree with the president's statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the president for this lack of civility."

[Ritalin]

So people who can't afford health care and insurance now aren't working hard enough to have it?

And what if people get sick or injured due to all that hard work beforethey get the coverage?

This is a very unrealistic and inhumane approach to this issue.

Yet valid as far as it goes. I don't agree with the case for health
care as a luxury, but I understand it. The problem with it in this case is that we've subsidized health care research as a country so
we therefore have made the choice that advanced health care is a public good. Every time the government
refuses to use it's purchasing power to negotiate lower drug
prices for Medicare, we are for all practical purposes subsidizing the pharmaceutical industry. Republicans will even
argue how lower profits will mean less research from Pharma. And they may be right. But when you make
that arguement, you've just shifted that incredibly expensive new
cancer drug from a luxury item to something that we all should have access to.

[epo]

Joe Wilson apologizes. (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/09/joe.wilson/)

A minor point...he ignored the Republican "Committee on Rules (http://rules-republicans.house.gov/Educational/Read.aspx?ID=5)" ettiquette.

For some reason, I smell the DCCC targeting his seat in 2010.

[Ritalin]

Joe Wilson apologizes. (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/09/joe.wilson/)

I don't believe his apology. Joe Wilson is a liar.

[Dudeman]

I don't believe his apology. Joe Wilson is a liar.

bravo:clap:

[epo]

And it appears that the representative picked by the GOP to deliver their rebuttal, Dr. Charles Coustany (R-LA) may in fact be a Birther (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/09/gop-picks-birther-to-rebu_n_279952.html)!

This is the core problem with a smear job...eventually the smear comes back on you.

[TooLowBrow]

After all the rhetoric is put aside, one principle ran through President Obama’s speech tonight: that increased government involvement in health care can solve its problems.

Many Americans fundamentally disagree with this idea. We know from long experience that the creation of a massive new bureaucracy will not provide us with “more stability and security,” but just the opposite. It's hard to believe the President when he says that this time he and his team of bureaucrats have finally figured out how to do things right if only we’ll take them at their word.

Our objections to the Democrats’ health care proposals are not mere “bickering” or “games.” They are not an attempt to “score short term political points.” And it’s hard to listen to the President lecture us not to use “scare tactics” when in the next breath he says that “more will die” if his proposals do not pass.

In his speech the President directly responded to concerns I’ve raised about unelected bureaucrats being given power to make decisions affecting life or death health care matters. He called these concerns “bogus,” “irresponsible,” and “a lie” -- so much for civility. After all the name-calling, though, what he did not do is respond to the arguments we’ve made, arguments even some of his own supporters have agreed have merit.

In fact, after promising to “make sure that no government bureaucrat .... gets between you and the health care you need,” the President repeated his call for an Independent Medicare Advisory Council -- an unelected, largely unaccountable group of bureaucrats charged with containing Medicare costs. He did not disavow his own statement that such a group, working outside of “normal political channels,” should guide decisions regarding that “huge driver of cost ... the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives....” He did not disavow the statements of his health care advisor, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, and continuing to pay his salary with taxpayer dollars proves a commitment to his beliefs. The President can keep making unsupported assertions, but until he directly responds to the arguments I’ve made, I’m going to call him out too.

It was heartening to hear the President finally recognize that tort reform is an important part of any solution. But this concession shouldn’t lead us to take our eye off the ball: the Democrats’ proposals will not reduce costs, and they will not deliver better health care. It’s this kind of “healthy skepticism of government” that truly reflects a “concern and regard for the plight of others.” We can’t wait to hear the details on that; we look forward to working with you on tort reform.

Finally, President Obama delivered an offhand applause line tonight about the cost of the war. As we approach the anniversary of the September 11th attacks and honor those who died that day and those who have died since in the War on Terror, in order to secure our freedoms, we need to remember their sacrifices and not demonize them as having had too high a price tag.

Remember, Mr. President, elected officials work for the people. Forcing a conclusion in order to claim a “victory” is not healthy for our country. We hear you say government isn’t always the answer; now hear us -- that’s what we’ve been saying all along.

- Sarah Palin
...

[TheMojoPin]

Has Sarah Palin ever made a substantial point or an argument that somehow amounted to more than "people are mean!"?

[epo]

Has Sarah Palin ever made a substantial point or an argument that somehow amounted to more than "people are mean!"?

Or said anything that didn't get her verbally bitch slapped?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3l9-eT9WzPY&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3l9-eT9WzPY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[TooLowBrow]

shes a bimbo

[CurseoftheBambi]

Remember, Mr. President, elected officials work for the people.

Unless you like quit before your term is over for DA MONEY!

CUNT:furious:

[The Jays]

He called these concerns “bogus,” “irresponsible,” and “a lie” -- so much for civility. After all the name-calling, though, what he did not do is respond to the arguments we’ve made, arguments even some of his own supporters have agreed have merit.

How the fuck is that name calling? He flat out called your bullshit a fucking lie. That's not calling a name. That's rebutting your fucking point, you fucking inbred bimbo quitting money whore.

[GregoryJoseph]

In an extraordinary breach of congressional decorum, a Republican lawmaker shouted "You lie" at President Barack Obama during his speech to Congress Wednesday.

Wilson's outburst came after Obama said that extending health care to all Americans who seek it would not mean insuring illegal immigrants.

"You lie!" Wilson shouted from his seat on the Republican side of the chamber.

How the fuck is that name calling? He flat out called your bullshit a fucking lie. That's not calling a name. That's rebutting your fucking point

[IMSlacker]

How the fuck is that name calling? He flat out called your bullshit a fucking lie. That's not calling a name. That's rebutting your fucking point

No one accused Wilson of name calling, just acting like a dick. And, he apparently agrees.

[underdog]

How the fuck is that name calling? He flat out called your bullshit a fucking lie. That's not calling a name. That's rebutting your fucking point

Sierra mist.

[lleeder]

hey this thread is silly cause people are debating healthcare

[Dudeman]

i posted this elsewhere, but it is my favorite part of the 'you lie' issue. According to Newsweek, "And for the record, Wilson was wrong: HR 3200, the health care bill under debate in the House, explicitly prohibits coverage for illegal immigrants."

[TheMojoPin]

How the fuck is that name calling? He flat out called your bullshit a fucking lie. That's not calling a name. That's rebutting your fucking point

Complete and total analogy fail.

[west milly Tom]

Complete and total analogy fail.


You're a thin candy shell.

[TheMojoPin]

Which is delicious.

[The Jays]

How the fuck is that name calling? He flat out called your bullshit a fucking lie. That's not calling a name. That's rebutting your fucking point

No one said Wilson was name calling. And a Congressman is supposed to have respect for the President after you have invited him to speak in the House, not use it as an opportunity to upstage him and act like it's a friggin town hall event.

My post was directed at the former Governor of Alaska, who quit her job so that she can post on Facebook.

[The Jays]

Bringing it to this thread.

west milly tom believes that A family of four that makes$75k a year can easily afford heath coverage, which Missy has found that it costs over $3000 per month for an HMO plan.

Obviously, west milly tom lives on Pluto.

[CurseoftheBambi]

How the fuck is that name calling? He flat out called your bullshit a fucking lie. That's not calling a name. That's rebutting your fucking point, you fucking inbred bimbo quitting money whore.

You use your tounge prettier than a $20 dollar whore! :wub:

[angrymissy]

Bringing it to this thread.

west milly tom believes that A family of four that makes$75k a year can easily afford heath coverage, which Missy has found that it costs over $3000 per month for an HMO plan.

Obviously, west milly tom lives on Pluto.

In NY, if you are not self-employed, that $3k plan is really one of your only options for "normal" insurance.

www.ehealthinsurance.com

Keep in mind that's just the quote too, without them taking into account any health problems.

A friend of mine w/ 4 kids, her husband has a small business and got a group plan for himself and his few employees, their monthly premium is well over $2k, that's why I looked it up.

[~Katja~]

Bringing it to this thread.

west milly tom believes that A family of four that makes$75k a year can easily afford heath coverage, which Missy has found that it costs over $3000 per month for an HMO plan.

Obviously, west milly tom lives on Pluto.
I think he just doesn't understand true insurance costs because he is very well covered under his Union.

[west milly Tom]

It's the case all the time.

Silera and Pat are at that Household income and HAVE insurance and can't afford the 20% coinsurance and fees.

Anyway, go run the numbers to see what insurance REALLY costs for a family of 4 in NYS.

http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/ehi/family1?allid=Goo25151


I'm sympathetic to their situation. I was without insurancefor years. I did not make their decisions for them and do t feel responsible for providing for them. The mean income for the nation is 51K a year. If its too expensive to live in NYS the sensible thing to do is move somewhere you cn afford. I did. I live is South Amboy because I can not afford to live in WM. If you really want to drive dow insurance costs and make it affordable for everyone, ask congressman to lift the interstate trade ban on insurance. Now run the numbers for their family again but thustime search for a policy in say Nebraska.

[Syd]

ask congressman to lift the interstate trade ban on insurance. Now run the numbers for their family again but thustime search for a policy in say Nebraska.

Interstate trade ban is important because many states disagree with minimum level of coverage. States like Florida and Arizona have minimal insurance coverage due to many being on Medicare, for example.

[~Katja~]

I'm sympathetic to their situation. I was without insurancefor years. I did not make their decisions for them and do t feel responsible for providing for them. The mean income for the nation is 51K a year. If its too expensive to live in NYS the sensible thing to do is move somewhere you cn afford. I did. I live is South Amboy because I can not afford to live in WM. If you really want to drive dow insurance costs and make it affordable for everyone, ask congressman to lift the interstate trade ban on insurance. Now run the numbers for their family again but thustime search for a policy in say Nebraska.
you can't always move somewhere to drive down costs, you are often bound by other priorities like a secure job, owning a house, children in schools and the better school system. You have no sympathy or understanding of what it means to be a parent or adult living on their own for years. You just started to spread your wings and have a lot to learn to judge people on their living circumstances.

[west milly Tom]

you can't always move somewhere to drive down costs, you are often bound by other priorities like a secure job, owning a house, children in schools and the better school system. You have no sympathy or understanding of what it means to be a parent or adult living on their own for years. You just started to spread your wings and have a lot to learn to judge people on their living circumstances.



Not judging anyone, didn't make the personal reference. I responded. Again though why should I have to be responsible for the situation of others?

[~Katja~]

Not judging anyone, didn't make the personal reference. I responded. Again though why should I have to be responsible for the situation of others?
why should you pay social security if most likely you will never get to use it?

[underdog]

I'm sympathetic to their situation. I was without insurancefor years. I did not make their decisions for them and do t feel responsible for providing for them. The mean income for the nation is 51K a year. If its too expensive to live in NYS the sensible thing to do is move somewhere you cn afford. I did. I live is South Amboy because I can not afford to live in WM. If you really want to drive dow insurance costs and make it affordable for everyone, ask congressman to lift the interstate trade ban on insurance. Now run the numbers for their family again but thustime search for a policy in say Nebraska.

If you don't want to pay for other people's insurance, move somewhere else.

[underdog]

Not judging anyone, didn't make the personal reference. I responded. Again though why should I have to be responsible for the situation of others?

Because you're a human being living in a fucking civilized society. The well being of everyone should be one of your top priorities. Not, "well, if they don't have enough money to stay healthy, fuck them.

[west milly Tom]

why should you pay social security if most likely you will never get to use it?


Good question. I don't pay into social security. I pay into railroad retirement which will most definitely be there when I retire because it is a private fund that uncle sam can't get his grubbing mits on. Perfect example of why private business is better than government hand outs.

[~Katja~]

Good question. I don't pay into social security. I pay into railroad retirement which will most definitely be there when I retire because it is a private fund that uncle sam can't get his grubbing mits on. Perfect example of why private business is better than government hand outs.
other example, why do you pay car insurance when you never have an accident?

[DarkHippie]

other example, why do you pay car insurance when you never have an accident?

why do i buy underwear if i never wear it?

[A.J.]

other example, why do you pay car insurance when you never have an accident?

why do i buy underwear if i never wear it?

Why do I buy condoms...

Oh nevermind.

[angrymissy]

http://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf

The Census Report for 2008 just came out.

Page 21, Table 7 has a LOT of specific information on uninsured.

46,300,000 Uninsured.
9,725,000 are not citizens.

36,575,000 Uninsured citizens. Seems Obama even lowballed the number in his speech.

[CurseoftheBambi]

Good question. I don't pay into social security. I pay into railroad retirement which will most definitely be there when I retire because it is a private fund that uncle sam can't get his grubbing mits on. Perfect example of why private business is better than government hand outs.why do you drive on goverment roads! socialist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[angrymissy]

The other day my neighbors house caught fire. I feel bad for them and all, but why do I have to pay for fire trucks to come put out their fire? That's just their crappy luck, right?

[~Katja~]

http://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf

The Census Report for 2008 just came out.

Page 21, Table 7 has a LOT of specific information on uninsured.

46,300,000 Uninsured.
9,725,000 are not citizens.

36,575,000 Uninsured citizens. Seems Obama even lowballed the number in his speech.

and you don't have to be a citizen to be legal. So out of these numbers you can add in permanent residents and people on work visa's that are paying taxes and live and work here legally.

[underdog]

The other day my neighbors house caught fire. I feel bad for them and all, but why do I have to pay for fire trucks to come put out their fire? That's just their crappy luck, right?

You obviously don't get it. That's different.

[west milly Tom]

The other day my neighbors house caught fire. I feel bad for them and all, but why do I have to pay for fire trucks to come put out their fire? That's just their crappy luck, right?


Good thing they have home owners insurance, wouldn't you say?

[underdog]

Good thing they have home owners insurance, wouldn't you say?

Do fire trucks only go to homes with home owner's insurance?

[west milly Tom]

The bottom line of the whole debate is that insurance is not a right it is a privilege one earns just like driving and home ownership.

[angrymissy]

Insurance won't set a fire truck out to his house to save his life.

Is simply being allowed to live a privilege, not a right?

I say healthcare should be a right, not a privilege, in a civilized country.

[SouthSideJohnny]

Interstate trade ban is important because many states disagree with minimum level of coverage. States like Florida and Arizona have minimal insurance coverage due to many being on Medicare, for example.

Sorry, but that argument doesn't work. If Congress is going to enact broad sweeping changes to the healthcare system, and health insurance in general, then the federal legislation can "preempt" state legislation. This happens with lots of other areas where there is broad legislation at the federal level.

If the federal government is going to increase regulation on the insurance companies, then why should it not also regulate minimum insurance requirements for everyone in the country? I live in Florida and I'm not on Medicare. Why should the health insurance available to me not be the same as what's provided elsewhere?

[A.J.]

Is simply being allowed to live a privilege, not a right?

Keep your laws off of my body!

[west milly Tom]

Insurance won't set a fire truck out to his house to save his life.

Is simply being allowed to live a privilege, not a right?

I say healthcare should be a right, not a privilege, in a civilized country.

What other changes would you like to make to the constitution? Should owning a home be a right as well? Perhaps a minimum income should be a right. Where does it end? Take a look at what capitalism has done in the last 200 years and what socialism has. The difference is astounding.

[angrymissy]

What other changes would you like to make to the constitution? Should owning a home be a right as well? Perhaps a minimum income should be a right. Where does it end? Take a look at what capitalism has done in the last 200 years and what socialism has. The difference is astounding.

How would providing a public option be changing the Constitution?

Is the fact that taxes pay for fire and police a change to the Constitution?

[west milly Tom]

How would providing a public option be changing the Constitution?

Is the fact that taxes pay for fire and police a change to the Constitution?

Did I miss something? Does the constitution provide for a "public option" now?

[angrymissy]

Did I miss something? Does the constitution provide for a "public option" now?

Does the Constitution provide for fire services, police services, libraries, museums, etc. paid for with our taxes?

Did we have to change the Constitution to obtain those services?

[underdog]

The bottom line of the whole debate is that insurance is not a right it is a privilege one earns just like driving and home ownership.

Seriously! Being alive and being healthy is a privilege, not a right! Fuck those people who get hurt! They're not lucky like me so they should die in the fucking streets!

Is simply being allowed to live a privilege, not a right?

It's totally a privilege. Except abortion. That should be against the law.

[west milly Tom]

Does the Constitution provide for fire services, police services, libraries, museums, etc. paid for with our taxes?

Did we have to change the Constitution to obtain those services?


You realize that health care reform is being delivered through constitutional amendment right?

[angrymissy]

You realize that health care reform is being delivered through constitutional amendment right?

How, exactly, is HR 3200 planned on being delivered through Constitutional Amendment? I have heard this discussed once or twice in articles, it was brought up a few months ago by Conyers, but never has this been a part of any legislation I have read associated with the current bills.

Link, please.

[epo]

You realize that health care reform is being delivered through constitutional amendment right?

At this point you are either massively uninformed or have evolved into a board character.

[HBox]

You all do realize by this point an argument with an ignorant person who makes shit up on a constant basis will never end, right?

This constitutional amendment nonsense should really tell you all you need to know about how gullible he is, how much he knows about the topic at hand and how much he knows about how government functions.

[Furtherman]

Well, as soon as he posts that link proving his point, we'll all be his bitches.

You'll see!!!

[HBox]

Well, as soon as he posts that link proving his point, we'll all be his bitches.

You'll see!!!

The tough part is ripping a hole through the dimensional fabric and establishing an internet connection with the 17th dimension. After that finding the link will be a breeze.

[CurseoftheBambi]

maybe that link is found on Earth O (for Obama) where he really is this communist , facist, nazi leader who killed all the JLA,Titans, Outsiders.

[booster11373]

What other changes would you like to make to the constitution? Should owning a home be a right as well? Perhaps a minimum income should be a right. Where does it end? Take a look at what capitalism has done in the last 200 years and what socialism has. The difference is astounding.

That makes no sense at all you realize the US is a mixed economy and in a lot of factors "socialized" countries are well ahead of the US

[foodcourtdruide]

That makes no sense at all you realize the US is a mixed economy and in a lot of factors "socialized" countries are well ahead of the US

Yeah, it was really an off statement.

In the last 200 years The New Deal and the Sherman Anti-Trust Act happened. I'm not sure of his point exactly.

[booster11373]

Further more where the heck is Jezo today? did a barbell fall on his foot or something?

[furie]

.

[TheMojoPin]

You realize that health care reform is being delivered through constitutional amendment right?

I hope to God you don't actually believe this.

Do you realize what the process is to get a new Amendment passed?

[yojimbo7248]

Further more where the heck is Jezo today? did a barbell fall on his foot or something?

I was also looking forward to hearing him defend Joe Wilson

[CofyCrakCocaine]

I should major in PoliSci at my local university today! so I can post more knowledgeably in Ronfez.net's political threads.

[hammersavage]

I should major in PoliSci at my local university today! so I can post more knowledgeably in Ronfez.net's political threads.

Or just get a gym membership.

[TheMojoPin]

I was also looking forward to hearing him defend Joe Wilson

He did in the thread about Wilson.

[underdog]

I hope to God you don't actually believe this.

Do you realize what the process is to get a new Amendment passed?

Just wait! He's going to come back and prove you wrong!

[yojimbo7248]

He did in the thread about Wilson.

ah, good. all is right in the world.

[The Jays]

I cannot believe he actually suggested that the fire department should only protect those houses which have homeowner's insurance.

Next, EMS can only pick up people who have health insurance cards.

In our perfect capitalist world, the private sector takes care of everything, from postal service to outer space exploration.

[A.J.]

I should major in PoliSci at my local university today! so I can post more knowledgeably in Ronfez.net's political threads.

Don't bother. I was a poli-sci major and look at my drivel.

[Misteriosa]

Further more where the heck is Jezo today? did a barbell fall on his foot or something?

if one did fall on his foot, i think it would be hilarious if his insurance denied his claim because of a pre-existing condition (a hangnail).

[A.J.]

if one did fall on his foot, i think it would be hilarious if his insurance denied his claim because of a pre-existing condition (a hangnail).

And instead of being airlifted to hospital by MedStar, he'd be taken away in black U.N. helicopters.

[epo]

You realize that health care reform is being delivered through constitutional amendment right?

Holy shit, you are a Tenth Amendment Movement lunatic, aren't you?

[Furtherman]

Holy shit, you are a Tenth Amendment Movement lunatic, aren't you?

Now, now... be patient... he said in the other thread he was on his way over here to explain himself. That was around 2pm so he's probably just making sure he's got all his t's crossed... i's dotted....

[underdog]

Now, now... be patient... he said in the other thread he was on his way over here to explain himself. That was around 2pm so he's probably just making sure he's got all his t's crossed... i's dotted....

I keep refreshing the page. I'm so excited that he's finally going to break up this liberal circle jerk. *cue liberal circle jerk

[Furtherman]

I keep refreshing the page. I'm so excited that he's finally going to break up this liberal circle jerk. *cue liberal circle jerk

Oh underdog! You tricked me!!!


*pulls pants up*

[west milly Tom]

Here's one for you libs, no joke this lady makes me question my principles:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/91044/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-thu-aug-20-2009?c=Comedy#s-p1-so-i0

watching this has genuinely helped me understand why people here think I'm a nutbird.

[epo]

Here's one for you libs, no joke this lady makes me question my principles:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/91044/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-thu-aug-20-2009?c=Comedy#s-p1-so-i0

watching this has genuinely helped me understand why people here think I'm a nutbird.

That's a fair statement. Not that it should make you shift your world-view, but questioning it is never a bad thing...

[underdog]

That's a fair statement. Not that it should make you shift your world-view, but questioning it is never a bad thing...

I couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic and was using the video as his health care proof.

[epo]

I couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic and was using the video as his health care proof.

I would guess not. Its a pretty embarrassing fucking video for the right.

She resigned her job the next day.

[west milly Tom]

I couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic and was using the video as his health care proof.


really made me think

[west milly Tom]

I would guess not. Its a pretty embarrassing fucking video for the right.

She resigned her job the next day.

wow, did not know that. she was awful. you watch? its on page 326...wait someone stole that page. lol

[epo]

wow, did not know that. she was awful. you watch? its on page 326...wait someone stole that page. lol

I did watch. Her interview is the old example of "follow the money" and take them on. She represented the interests of the insurance lobby...and then failed, so she went away.

Mind you she's represented their interests since the 90s when she was a part of the anti-health care reform debate against the Clinton administration.

[sr71blackbird]

Hey, I just wondered something: Who will pay for and be liable for malpractice insurance under this plan? Will a patient sue the doctor or the government if they are the victim of malpractice?

[HBox]

Hey, I just wondered something: Who will pay for and be liable for malpractice insurance under this plan? Will a patient sue the doctor or the government if they are the victim of malpractice?

You obviously have absolutely not even the slightest clue about what is actually being proposed.

[angrymissy]

Huffington Post is already posting the most offensive signs from the health care Tea Party protest thing today. I think this guy may win for biggest tard:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37538_large.jpg

[angrymissy]

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37544_large.jpg

[angrymissy]

Wow. That 9/11 sign is fucking wrong.

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2672/slide_2672_37534_large.jpg

[A.J.]

Huffington Post is already posting the most offensive signs from the health care Tea Party protest thing today. I think this guy may win for biggest tard:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37538_large.jpg

Yes, but I'll give him credit for at least being a good speller.

[silera]

The irony of that nobama care sign is that terry schiavo is on the left and her medical care was paid for by medicare.

[beachbum]

I was in Orlando two weeks ago and had a lengthy discussion with a couple from England.They wre very happy with their healthcare system and said there was no way they would trade it for ours.The only complaint they really had was that any tourist or anyone for that matter got exactly the same care as they did and their taxes pay for it all.Jim Jeffries told an amusing story illustrating this point on O&A Friday.

I also had pretty much the same conversation with a nice lady from Ireland.

Several Canadiens that I have personally talked to about health care have all told me that they are very happy with their system.Their grandparents get proper treatment.They don't have long waits for surgerys.I don't get it.

Is this all anecdotal?For sure it is.But I don't have a vast number of connections with people from other countries.

[booster11373]

Someone please explain to my public educated atheist ass how someone can be a "Marxist Muslim"

[angrymissy]

Someone please explain to my public educated atheist ass how someone can be a "Marxist Muslim"

Socialism and acorns, duh.

[booster11373]

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37542_large.jpg

You would think that being such an important issue some of these people would open a history book and see that there were no Czar's in the Soviet Union

[hanso]

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[epo]

Once again, when a respected organization does a study, the public option is widely endorsed:

Doctors on Coverage — Physicians’ Views on a New Public Insurance Option and Medicare Expansion (http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1790&query=home)

Overall, a majority of physicians (62.9%) supported public and private options (see Panel A of graph). Only 27.3% supported offering private options only. Respondents — across all demographic subgroups, specialties, practice locations, and practice types — showed majority support (>57.4%) for the inclusion of a public option (see Table 1).

That's 62.9% for public and private.
9.6% for public only.
27.3% for private only.

By my math that's 72.5% of physicians willing to support a public option.

For some reason I trust the New England Journal of Medicine and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation more than I do Fox News.

[GregoryJoseph]

Imagine if the world stop seeking ways to divide people?

[HBox]

By my math that's 72.5% of physicians willing to support a public option.

Math has a well-known liberal bias.

[underdog]

For some reason I trust the New England Journal of Medicine and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation more than I do Fox News.

Just another example of our liberal media trying to skew everyone's views.

[yojimbo7248]

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37542_large.jpg

You would think that being such an important issue some of these people would open a history book and see that there were no Czar's in the Soviet Union

I have lowered my expectations to just wanting them to spell their signs correctly. there is no way we are going to get them to read Russian history or actually learn about health care, Wall Street bailouts, Founding Fathers, and the other issues they are shrieking about.

[sr71blackbird]

Anyone I see that is so firmly for national health care and also prone to attack anyones point who is against it is obviously someone who has something personal to gain from it. I steer clear of fanatics of any topic. They never listen to any counter point and there is no discussion, so there can never be a conversation. All they want to do is scream their point and try to force you into their camp. I avoid discussions with such people and if you are such a person, be aware you turn everyone off and can never win an argument with someone you attempt to bully.

[epo]

Anyone I see that is so firmly for national health care and also prone to attack anyones point who is against it is obviously someone who has something personal to gain from it. I steer clear of fanatics of any topic. They never listen to any counter point and there is no discussion, so there can never be a conversation. All they want to do is scream their point and try to force you into their camp. I avoid discussions with such people and if you are such a person, be aware you turn everyone off and can never win an argument with someone you attempt to bully.

I personally have things to lose from it. My regular job is doing communications for a health care provider. If reimbursements are lowered, I could be deemed an "unnecessary" expense and let go.

Yet here I am, inside of the system telling people that a "public option" is the absolutely right thing to do for our citizens AND our economy.

[TheMojoPin]

Imagine if the world stop seeking ways to divide people?

Ugh, you're such a disgusting, halfassed hippie.

[HBox]

Anyone I see that is so firmly for national health care and also prone to attack anyones point who is against it is obviously someone who has something personal to gain from it. I steer clear of fanatics of any topic. They never listen to any counter point and there is no discussion, so there can never be a conversation. All they want to do is scream their point and try to force you into their camp. I avoid discussions with such people and if you are such a person, be aware you turn everyone off and can never win an argument with someone you attempt to bully.

When you come in here talking about a single-payer system or a nationalized health care system I simply assume you don't care at all about this issue since if you were paying even the slightest attention you'd know that neither has ever been an option or seriously discussed.

[sr71blackbird]

The role of government was never intended to run any kind of system like this. They should not do anything other than govern the people and protect us from foreign enemies. I know that you will say that that is not what this system will be about, and I wish I coul believe it. But I know better, because that kind of power in governments hands is like cocaine in the hands of a crack addict. Politicians cannot resist power. That's why they spend millions trying to get a job that pays less than $100,000 a year. I look at GM and these other recent bale outs as examples. Industry reaches out to government as soon as they get in trouble, and this will be no different as far as I am concerned. When we keep giving power to the government, we are giving it the means to totally control every aspect of our lives. It is best to keep then weak in this way.

[TheMojoPin]

Whut?

[IMSlacker]

You'll have to forgive him. He's overdue for a tranny fluid change.

[HBox]

The role of government was never intended to run any kind of system like this. They should not do anything other than govern the people and protect us from foreign enemies. I know that you will say that that is not what this system will be about, and I wish I coul believe it. But I know better, because that kind of power in governments hands is like cocaine in the hands of a crack addict. Politicians cannot resist power. That's why they spend millions trying to get a job that pays less than $100,000 a year. I look at GM and these other recent bale outs as examples. Industry reaches out to government as soon as they get in trouble, and this will be no different as far as I am concerned. When we keep giving power to the government, we are giving it the means to totally control every aspect of our lives. It is best to keep then weak in this way.

You obviously have no clue what is actually being proposed, nor the state of health care industries and the system in general. And that's fine. Just stop talking.

[hanso]

The role of government was never intended to run any kind of system like this. They should not do anything other than govern the people and protect us from foreign enemies. I know that you will say that that is not what this system will be about, and I wish I coul believe it. But I know better, because that kind of power in governments hands is like cocaine in the hands of a crack addict. Politicians cannot resist power. That's why they spend millions trying to get a job that pays less than $100,000 a year. I look at GM and these other recent bale outs as examples. Industry reaches out to government as soon as they get in trouble, and this will be no different as far as I am concerned. When we keep giving power to the government, we are giving it the means to totally control every aspect of our lives. It is best to keep then weak in this way.
See the V.A., Medicare/medicaid, or any armed forces health care facility.

[TooLowBrow]

is it weird that we're willing to ask the government for things that we wouldnt ask our parents for?

if we ask our parents for things, they say, 'ill help you a little, but you gotta make it on your own'

now, if thats the government message, we scoff like its not enough

[Kublakhan61]

The role of government was never intended to run any kind of system like this. They should not do anything other than govern the people and protect us from foreign enemies. I know that you will say that that is not what this system will be about, and I wish I coul believe it. But I know better, because that kind of power in governments hands is like cocaine in the hands of a crack addict. Politicians cannot resist power. That's why they spend millions trying to get a job that pays less than $100,000 a year. I look at GM and these other recent bale outs as examples. Industry reaches out to government as soon as they get in trouble, and this will be no different as far as I am concerned. When we keep giving power to the government, we are giving it the means to totally control every aspect of our lives. It is best to keep then weak in this way.

Read the federalist papers. When you've digested the foundation of the American Democratic Government, as written by the founders, come back and talk with us about what our government should be doing.

You are just talking and not trying to learn.

While your at it read Foucault - then you can accurately talk about power.


EDIT:Article I section 8:

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

[Crispy123]

See the V.A., Medicare/medicaid, or any armed forces health care facility.

very true and the government officials themselves recieve this type of care. I myself have nothing to gain as I have had socialized medicine through naval hospitals for 11 years and I will for the rest of my life in the VA system.

Everyone should have health care.

[angrymissy]

It's sad that you think the only people who want UHC are people who have something to gain. I have pretty great health insurance that I don't pay very much for, with FSA accounts, Vision, Dental, etc, and will probably pay more in taxes.

I'm in support of it because I can't fathom denying another human being medical care.

[west milly Tom]

You obviously have no clue what is actually being proposed, nor the state of health care industries and the system in general. And that's fine. Just stop talking.



Why is it that you dismiss anyone whi disagrees with you as ignorant? It is less about the issue with you and more about being smarter than everybody. You completely defeat your own argument by presenting your "rightness" so much. You are totally irrelevant.

[Jujubees2]

is it weird that we're willing to ask the government for things that we wouldnt ask our parents for?

if we ask our parents for things, they say, 'ill help you a little, but you gotta make it on your own'

now, if thats the government message, we scoff like its not enough

I don't know of many parents who would not help our their child if that child needed healthcare. We're not talking about buying a BMW.

[Kublakhan61]

Why is it that you dismiss anyone whit disagrees with you as ignorant? It is less about the issue with you and more about being smarter than everybody. You completely defeat your own argument by presenting your "rightness" so much. You are totally irrelevant.

You have to admit it is difficult and trying to discuss/argue with someone who does not know the issue and, instead of making a serious effort to understand the issue in their own terms, resorts to conjecture and pull quotes from the media. That is the definition of ignorant, is it not?

Surely hbox wouldn't dismiss a legit counter argument - in fact, I think he's waiting for one.

[HBox]

I'm tired of people not letting their ignorance on this issue stop them from opening their mouths and offering opinions on things that don't have a chance of happening. This is an issue that severely affects the lives of a large portion of this country and then you have assholes who make no effort to understand anything about the issue and go on about the most ridiculous things. Instead of an actual debate about the best ways to deliver health care and improving the the bills that are actually being proposed we have to tell people that no, the government will not set up panels to kill old people and no, the government isn't taking over health care or eliminating private insurance or anything that you would have to ditch your common sense to believe. And all you have to do know these things is pay just a little bit of attention and believe facts. Lots of people don't do either. And it drives me nuts because while it might be a game to these people this seriously affect people's lives.

[underdog]

Don't cut our health care! (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/15/klein.health.care.government/index.html)

[angrymissy]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/15/tea-party-leader-melts-do_n_286933.html

Cooper had done his homework, however, and caught Williams blatantly misrepresenting himself: "What you're saying makes sense to me here when I'm hearing what you say but then I read on your blog, you say, you call the President an Indonesian Muslim turned welfare thug and a racist in chief."

Williams shrugs and responds, "Yeah, that's the way he's behaving." An incredulous Cooper asks Williams if he really believes Obama is an Indonesian Muslim, welfare thug and racist in-chief. The tea party leader digs the hole a little deeper: "He's certainly acting like it. Until he embraces the whole country what else can I conclude."

[Dude!]

Cooper had done his homework, however, and caught Williams blatantly misrepresenting himself: "What you're saying makes sense to me here when I'm hearing what you say but then I read on your blog, you say, you call the President an Indonesian Muslim turned welfare thug and a racist in chief."

Williams shrugs and responds, "Yeah, that's the way he's behaving." An incredulous Cooper asks Williams if he really believes Obama is an Indonesian Muslim, welfare thug and racist in-chief. The tea party leader digs the hole a little deeper: "He's certainly acting like it. Until he embraces the whole country what else can I conclude."

teabagger interviews teapartyer!

[KatPw]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/15/tea-party-leader-melts-do_n_286933.html

How does one act like an "Indonesian Muslim"? Has Obama been caught praying towards Mecca 5 times a day?

[badmonkey]

People have valid disagreements with the things the President is saying. For starters, there's multiple bills being considered right now in multiple committees and he's running around like there's only his plan. He hasn't put forward a plan. He's talking about what he wants as if it's written on paper somewhere waiting for a vote. He's essentially selling a product that doesn't exist. If he puts forward a bill that is what he says it is, then he will have some support. If he allows Republicans to have a say in writing the bill instead of letting Pelosi and Reid continue the "we won the election, we'll write the bill" nonsense that he started with the stimulus, then he will get some bipartisan support for a bipartisan bill.

He pretends he wants bipartisanship, but he thinks that bipartisanship is when some democrats write the bill and republicans vote for it too.

He cannot 100% guarantee that anything about the health care plan until he presents that bill or congress narrows down to one single bill. I don't think most people are against health care reform itself. I think there are different ideas of how it should be done. If they weren't so afraid of pissing off the trial lawyers, they might get more republican support for their ideas.

[TheMojoPin]

How does one act like an "Indonesian Muslim"? Has Obama been caught praying towards Mecca 5 times a day?

He eats satay for lunch every day and then wipes his mouth with the American flag.

[epo]

It's sad that you think the only people who want UHC are people who have something to gain. I have pretty great health insurance that I don't pay very much for, with FSA accounts, Vision, Dental, etc, and will probably pay more in taxes.

I'm in support of it because I can't fathom denying another human being medical care.

The irony is that the people working to improve access to health care are generally progressives from blue states. Statistics show blue states to have better care and better access to health care. In fact the bottom ten states in quality/access all voted for Bush in 2004.

Yet we blue staters are the selfish bastards.

[nate1000]

He eats satay for lunch every day and then wipes his mouth with the American flag.

That Satay is one lucky girl!

[KatPw]

He eats satay for lunch every day and then wipes his mouth with the American flag.

That's an Indonesian Muslim thing? I just figured it was because the Flag is just so darn absorbent.

[badmonkey]

The irony is that the people working to improve access to health care are generally progressives from blue states. Statistics show blue states to have better care and better access to health care. In fact the bottom ten states in quality/access all voted for Bush in 2004.

Yet we blue staters are the selfish bastards.

Source?

[epo]

Source?

2007 data here. (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2007-06-13-health-states-chart_N.htm)

[angrymissy]

Source?

Similar data, using 2008 election data

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_hea_ind-health-index

Top 10
1. Vermont
2. New Hampshire
3. Massachusetts
4. Minnesota
5. Maine
6. Iowa
7. Utah
8. Hawaii
9. Nebraska
10. Connecticut

Bottom 10
50. Louisiana
49. Mississippi
48. New Mexico
47. Nevada
46. Oklahoma
45. Texas
44. Florida
43. South Carolina
42. Georgia
41. Alabama
40. Arkansas

[Kublakhan61]

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Charts-and-Maps/State-Scorecard.aspx

Use this to look at other states; how they rate overall, how accessible care is, how much they could save if hospital readmission were reduced by giving proper care in the first place, how they rate in terms of quality of care, etc.

It's a resource produced by a bipartisan NPO - it's based in fact, not opinion.

[badmonkey]

2007 data here. (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2007-06-13-health-states-chart_N.htm)

Similar data, using 2008 election data

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_hea_ind-health-index

Top 10
1. Vermont
2. New Hampshire
3. Massachusetts
4. Minnesota
5. Maine
6. Iowa
7. Utah
8. Hawaii
9. Nebraska
10. Connecticut

Bottom 10
50. Louisiana
49. Mississippi
48. New Mexico
47. Nevada
46. Oklahoma
45. Texas
44. Florida
43. South Carolina
42. Georgia
41. Alabama
40. Arkansas

Interesting stats, but I don't buy that any of it has anything to do with selfish or non-selfish bastards in either state. That whole "we're better than you" attitude is part of the reason we have this political divide in the first place. The 2004 election was the first time that the red/blue didn't switch parties for the electoral map. 2008 was the 2nd. You're not better or worse than people in "red states". You're just different.

As for a government run option, I don't see the need. The govt can put rules in place to foster competition among the insurance companies that already exist. They can make it illegal to deny coverage based on preexisting conditions. There's no reason for them to create something to compete in a market that they regulate.

[angrymissy]

Interesting stats, but I don't buy that any of it has anything to do with selfish or non-selfish bastards in either state. That whole "we're better than you" attitude is part of the reason we have this political divide in the first place. The 2004 election was the first time that the red/blue didn't switch parties for the electoral map. 2008 was the 2nd. You're not better or worse than people in "red states". You're just different.

As for a government run option, I don't see the need. The govt can put rules in place to foster competition among the insurance companies that already exist. They can make it illegal to deny coverage based on preexisting conditions. There's no reason for them to create something to compete in a market that they regulate.

I don't think anyone was trying to say "we're better than you". The comment was to refute the "Anyone supporting public heathcare obviously has something to gain from it". Which is not supported by the facts, as the left leaning states have the best access to healthcare, yet are also the ones heavily supporting National Health Care.

[HBox]

Interesting stats, but I don't buy that any of it has anything to do with selfish or non-selfish bastards in either state. That whole "we're better than you" attitude is part of the reason we have this political divide in the first place. The 2004 election was the first time that the red/blue didn't switch parties for the electoral map. 2008 was the 2nd. You're not better or worse than people in "red states". You're just different.

As for a government run option, I don't see the need. The govt can put rules in place to foster competition among the insurance companies that already exist. They can make it illegal to deny coverage based on preexisting conditions. There's no reason for them to create something to compete in a market that they regulate.

The idea behind the public option is that since Medicare and Medicaid operate with far lower administrative costs than any insurance company a government run insurance plan can offer the kind of competition that doesn't currently exist in the marketplace.

What insurance companies are supposed to provide to the system is cost control. I don't think anyone can argue they haven't failed spectacularly in that.

[badmonkey]

The idea behind the public option is that since Medicare and Medicaid operate with far lower administrative costs than any insurance company a government run insurance plan can offer the kind of competition that doesn't currently exist in the marketplace.

What insurance companies are supposed to provide to the system is cost control. I don't think anyone can argue they haven't failed spectacularly in that.

Medicare and Medicaid are running out of money just like Social Security. Insurance companies provide cost control for themselves by paying more than Medicare/Medicaid, but not as much as what the doctor charges an individual. They get the best price they can get by dictating that price to the doctors. Medicare and Medicaid already don't pay the doctors very much. Insurance companies can lower administrative costs by not having to have administrative offices in every single state operating under different rules. If they could have one HQ and cover the whole nation from there, that would probably reduce administrative costs a shitload.

[epo]

Doesn't the Brookings Institute have Medicare solvent until 2040-ish? If so, it really shoots that fallacy down the tubes...

[HBox]

Medicare and Medicaid are running out of money just like Social Security. Insurance companies provide cost control for themselves by paying more than Medicare/Medicaid, but not as much as what the doctor charges an individual. They get the best price they can get by dictating that price to the doctors. Medicare and Medicaid already don't pay the doctors very much. Insurance companies can lower administrative costs by not having to have administrative offices in every single state operating under different rules. If they could have one HQ and cover the whole nation from there, that would probably reduce administrative costs a shitload.

Medicare and Medicaid have a problem with funding issues but those have nothing to do with administrative costs. Medicare and Medicaid have a far lower percentage of their operating costs devoted to administration than do private insurance companies. And Medicare has to deal with the same interstate issues. Medicaid doesn't since it is state-operated.

If there were a public option it would have had to operate on its own funds. The government would not have covered its losses. If it would have then it truly would have been a trojan horse to public care that the insurance companies would not have been able to compete with. But it wasn't And it would take a miracle for it to be in the final bill at this point anyway.

[HBox]

Doesn't the Brookings Institute have Medicare solvent until 2040-ish? If so, it really shoots that fallacy down the tubes...

That's probably Social Security. Medicare is a financial disaster. It was before Bush passed the drug benefit and it was much worse after it.

[epo]

That's probably Social Security. Medicare is a financial disaster. It was before Bush passed the drug benefit and it was much worse after it.

Good call. From Brookings (http://www.brookings.edu/multimedia/video/2009/0514_social_security_aaron.aspx):

"I think the Social Security trust funds report should be interpreted as worse news than last year, but actually better than the news that has been on the average for about the last 15 years. The Actuary's projections have been pretty much constant over that period. The system has enough money until sometime late in the 2030s or early 2040s. It does face a long term deficit, and the sooner we deal with that problem the better, but there is really no cause for hand ringing that the sky is falling. There is a steady warning that it is time for Congress to face this problem and deal with it. Furthermore it’s a relatively easy problem to deal with. Small adjustments in revenues or in benefits would be sufficient to put the system on a steady financial course for the indefinite future."

"...In the case of Medicare the prospects as indicated by the trust funds reports this week are far more serious than in the case of Social Security. There are smaller reserves for hospital insurance, so the system is projected to exhaust those reserves much sooner. Furthermore, costs are projected to increase not only because the baby boomers are going to retire, which also affects Social Security, but in addition because the per capita costs of health care spending are growing faster than incomes, and that means you got a double whammy. Big changes are going to be necessary, probably mostly on the revenue side, but some in the form of economies and expenditures, in order to assure that the Medicare system is in balance. The key point here is that in order to do those things with in Medicare the changes almost certainly will have to be and should be embedded in overall health system reform. That is the reason my view why President Obama and leading administration spokespersons have been emphasizing that health reform is budget reform for the federal government."

So this NEEDS to get done to help the solvency of the program?

[HBox]

Good call. From Brookings (http://www.brookings.edu/multimedia/video/2009/0514_social_security_aaron.aspx):



So this NEEDS to get done to help the solvency of the program?

If nothing is done Medicare will completely run out of money in the next decade.

[badmonkey]

Reform. Not rewrite.

[epo]

The Senate Finance Committee has released their version of a health care reform bill. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/16/AR2009091601151.html)

Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus unveiled an $856 billion health-care reform plan Wednesday that would require nearly all Americans to carry health insurance while barring insurance companies from discriminating against people based on their health status or denying coverage because of preexisting conditions.

The interesting fight will not be over "reform" but over the "public option". Pelosi won't pass a bill in the House without it, yet the Senate Finance bill doesn't have one. Hmm....

[The Jays]

This current bill is a failure on both sides. Put the public option in, stop trying to woo Republicans, they are too busy trying to find Obama's birth certificate and how ACORN pours sugar in the gas tanks of millions of citizens.

[Syd]

Public option is a necessity for any meaningful reform. Republican/Baucus plans have too high of a cost to put on the American public. Most UHC countries sit around 5% average income cost of healthcare and currently America is at 10% and growing, Baucus' plan wants to peg that at 13%. There's no way Americans can afford that, or any healthcare costs in the future. Profits are increasing exponentially for healthcare providers -- just simply moving to a non-profit would reduce costs immensely to society. Moving it to a more efficient government run insurer would reduce costs that much more. Since we can throw the public option out there -- a non mandatory, self-reliant for funding office of the government would be perfect. Scared of death panels by the big bad voodoo shaman in the White House? Go with your private insurance. Since the program can be started with a modicum of seed money in the form of a loan, the initial cost would be low and easily repaid over time. It'd be budget neutral and self-sufficient in no time -- there are no legitimate criticisms against this other than if you wanted even more government coverage in the form of single payer. Any other argument against it would be based solely on your profits from investing in a health insurer.

[epo]

I'm with you guys, the Baucus bill sucks dick. No public option and its essentially a corporate-giveaway to the insurance companies.

Fuck that version of the bill.

[HBox]

I'm with you guys, the Baucus bill sucks dick. No public option and its essentially a corporate-giveaway to the insurance companies.

Fuck that version of the bill.

It seems anyone not named Max Baucus agrees with you.

Which goes to show you how serious Republicans are about negotiations. How many more compromises could the Democrats make? The bill even REDUCES the deficit! And not one Republican is on board.

[epo]

It seems anyone not named Max Baucus agrees with you.

Which goes to show you how serious Republicans are about negotiations. How many more compromises could the Democrats make? The bill even REDUCES the deficit! And not one Republican is on board.

Then its obvious that we are off to reconciliation in the Senate. Which honestly is a better option that Baucus' trainwreck of a bill.