President-Elect Obama Thread

[Zorro]

James Lee Witt was great as the head of FEMA.

This is a complete aside. James Lee Witt was the reason I grew to have a serious dislike of Clinton. James Lee Witt is a really good guy, very religous, straight laced and honest. Back when Clinton lied about the Monica thing he had his Cabinet line up on the White House lawn to say "I believe the President" Witt among them.

To this day I keep thinking how hard it must have been for Witt and what a piece of shit Clinton was for sending out the one guy from whom everyone expects honesty and forthrightness from to lie.

[Dirtybird12]

I think it bears repeating that the "house band" at the convention the other night sucked ass. That was awful when they played "Pink Houses" and just repeated only the line "Ain't that America" over and over again.

And I suspect that it won't be any better at the GOP convention.

Yeah that band wasnt the best. Just a safe "wedding" type band.


Jackson Browne has refused to take it easy, suing GOP presidential candidate John McCain and the Republican National Committee for using his biggest hit, "Running on Empty," in an Obama-slamming campaign ad without his permission.

Mike Myers reportedly requested that the campaign take down a Web ad that used the "We're not worthy" clip from Wayne's World in dissing Obama's celebrity prowess.

Indiana-born rocker John Mellencamp, who says in Rolling Stone's latest issue that it can be pretty strange being the only left-winger for miles on his Indiana homestead, objected earlier this year to the McCain campaign playing "Our Country" and "Pink House" at events.

[angrymissy]

My flood insurance is $700 a year, and they just send me a bright yellow form every year asking to renew. If I don't do it fast enough, I start getting angry letters from my mortgage company.

[Dirtybird12]

The VP debates should be interesting. Biden has the ability to crush Palin. But will he treat her w/ kid gloves?

[epo]

The VP debates should be interesting. Biden has the ability to crush Palin. But will he treat her w/ kid gloves?

Why should he? Bush Sr. didn't treat Ferraro with kid gloves in 1984.

[epo]

Obama speech sets record for convention viewership (http://tvdecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/conventions-38-million-view-obamas-speech/?ref=business)

Barack Obama accepted the Democratic nomination for president on Thursday as an estimated 38 million viewers watched on television, setting a new record for convention viewership, according to Nielsen Media Research.

Mr. Obama’s speech — a historic one given his status as the first African American nominee of a major political party — reached significantly more viewers than the comparable addresses in 2004. Coverage of John Kerry’s acceptance speech in 2004 had 24.4 million viewers; coverage of George W. Bush’s convention speech that same year drew 27.5 million.

The audience estimate of 38.3 million means that Mr. Obama’s speech reached more viewers than the Olympics opening ceremony in Beijing, the final “American Idol” or the Academy Awards this year, the Associated Press notes.

[DiabloSammich]

Obama speech sets record for convention viewership (http://tvdecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/conventions-38-million-view-obamas-speech/?ref=business)



If only that translates into voter turnout.


By the way, I didn't think I would ever reach a point in my life when I would be looking forward to a Vice-Presidential debate.

Biden will run roughshod over her in the experience department, but one of his weaknesses his entire career has been the female voter. I'm interested to see how he attacks her without seeming masogynistic (sp?) thus further turning off female voters.

[epo]

Debate Schedule:

September 26, 2008: Presidential debate with domestic policy focus, University of Mississippi, Oxford, MS

October 2, 2008: Vice Presidential debate, Washington University, St. Louis, MO

October 7, 2008: Presidential debate in a town hall format, Belmont University, Nashville, TN

October 15, 2008:Presidential debate with foreign policy focus, Hofstra University, Hempstead, NY

I'm guessing the ratings on October 2 will be huge in the state of Delaware! haha

[epo]

If only that translates into voter turnout.


I don't think it automatically translates into voter turnout, but it could. To me it greater defines how much this whole race is about whether or not Obama can "make the sale" to America about himself.

[DiabloSammich]

[B]

I'm guessing the ratings on October 2 will be huge in the state of Delaware! haha



You wouldn't believe this place. I think there is a referendum to change the state name to Bidentown, U.S.A.

[Tenbatsuzen]

I think it bears repeating that the "house band" at the convention the other night sucked ass. That was awful when they played "Pink Houses" and just repeated only the line "Ain't that America" over and over again.

And I suspect that it won't be any better at the GOP convention.

Need I bring up "Still the One" by Orleans?

[Tenbatsuzen]

Bidentown, U.S.A.

I would change your location immediately. That's GOLD.

[epo]

You wouldn't believe this place. I think there is a referendum to change the state name to Bidentown, U.S.A.

I guarantee that would be the state with the whitest teeth in the nation.

[Tenbatsuzen]

I had today what some people would call a "moment of clarity".

I grew up in a republican family. I learned about personal responsibility. I came from a family of bootleggers and scientists.

Don't ask.

So I usually always vote Republican. When I supported Clinton in 92, my father wouldn't talk to me for a week. I let the validation of my father prevent me from forming decisions.

When McCain made his VP pick today, the more I learned about her, the more I didn't like it. Not because she's a woman. One of my favorite politicians was Christie Whitman. I didn't like her stances. I didn't like her platform. And I especially didn't like the fact that she's one heartbeat away from the presidency with how old McCain is.

My father called me tonight to see what I thought about the Palin pick. I summed it up with, "Dad, she believes creationism should be taught in schools."

My father responded with, "Oh... OH."

I don't think I'll get shit from him this time if I vote for Obama.

I don't consider myself a democrat. I consider myself a moderate who believes in the death penalty for child molestors and cop killers, pro-choice, gun control, etc.

Bleah.

[Tenbatsuzen]

I guarantee that would be the state with the whitest teeth in the nation.

Have you seen Obama's teeth? And the brother SMOKES.

[DiabloSammich]

I would change your location immediately. That's GOLD.


Dude, I'm already rocking the avatar, I mention the man's name every other post I make.


Let's not get crazy.

[epo]

Dude, I'm already rocking the avatar, I mention the man's name every other post I make.

Let's not get crazy.

Plus you've got the street cred with that Hawkwind sig pic.

[scottinnj]

The VP debates should be interesting. Biden has the ability to crush Palin. But will he treat her w/ kid gloves?

Why should he? She's a big girl. (and she's smoking hot) If she wants to be the VP and eventually run for the Presidency, she'll have to face a lot tougher stuff then Joe Biden in a debate.

[GreatAmericanZero]

hot girls are rarely not "fucking annoying"

[Tenbatsuzen]

hot girls are rarely not "fucking annoying"

That's why God invented a ballgag.

[DiabloSammich]

That's why God invented a ballgag.



That was God?


Man, Wikipedia sucks.

[DiabloSammich]

Plus you've got the street cred with that Hawkwind sig pic.



Obama, Biden, and Hawkwind filling Cabinet positions.


It would be like Voltron, only with a better smile.

[Ritalin]

That's why God invented a ballgag.

God didn't invent the ballgag.

The ballgag evolved over thousands and thousands of years.

[epo]

Obama, Biden, and Hawkwind filling Cabinet positions.

It would be like Voltron, only with a better smile.

The government will run like a Silver Machine.

[Ritalin]

Sarah Palin = Eddie Gadel

[scottinnj]

Sarah Palin = Eddie Gadel

I'm old. I don't get it. What do you mean?

[Tenbatsuzen]

Obama, Biden, and Hawkwind filling Cabinet positions.


It would be like Voltron, only with a better smile.

You mean every day will be same - robeast, blazing sword, end credits?

[Ritalin]

I'm old. I don't get it. What do you mean?

My fault. I misspelled his name:

Edward Carl "Eddie" Gaedel (June 8, 1925 – June 18, 1961), born in Chicago, Illinois, was an American little person who became famous for participating in a Major League Baseball game.
Gaedel gained immortality in the second game of a doubleheader on Sunday, August 19, 1951. Weighing just 65 pounds (29.5 kg), and 3 feet 7 inches (1.09 m) tall, he became the shortest player in the history of the major leagues. He was secretly signed by the St. Louis Browns and put in uniform (complete with elf slippers & the number "⅛" on the back) as a publicity stunt by maverick Browns owner and showman Bill Veeck.

http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10125000/10125965.jpg

[DiabloSammich]

My fault. I misspelled his name:

Edward Carl "Eddie" Gaedel (June 8, 1925 – June 18, 1961), born in Chicago, Illinois, was an American little person who became famous for participating in a Major League Baseball game.
Gaedel gained immortality in the second game of a doubleheader on Sunday, August 19, 1951. Weighing just 65 pounds (29.5 kg), and 3 feet 7 inches (1.09 m) tall, he became the shortest player in the history of the major leagues. He was secretly signed by the St. Louis Browns and put in uniform (complete with elf slippers & the number "⅛" on the back) as a publicity stunt by maverick Browns owner and showman Bill Veeck.

http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10125000/10125965.jpg



That would make her one of the hottest midgets I've ever seen.

[scottinnj]

My fault. I misspelled his name:

Edward Carl "Eddie" Gaedel (June 8, 1925 – June 18, 1961), born in Chicago, Illinois, was an American little person who became famous for participating in a Major League Baseball game.
Gaedel gained immortality in the second game of a doubleheader on Sunday, August 19, 1951. Weighing just 65 pounds (29.5 kg), and 3 feet 7 inches (1.09 m) tall, he became the shortest player in the history of the major leagues. He was secretly signed by the St. Louis Browns and put in uniform (complete with elf slippers & the number "⅛" on the back) as a publicity stunt by maverick Browns owner and showman Bill Veeck.

http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10125000/10125965.jpg

That would make her one of the hottest midgets I've ever seen.


Oh I agree. I'd still hit it.

[Zorro]

Oh I agree. I'd still hit it.


The midget ?

[scottinnj]

The midget ?

No, my fantastically-perverted image of Palin as a "little person"

[Ritalin]

Yeah, I'm just not seeing that "she's hot" thing.

But I'm not into Tina Fey either, and she's a dead ringer - except for the tranny makeup.

[NewYorkDragons80]

2 days ago Obama gave the best speech of his life. Today, all people are talking about is Sarah Palin and Oprah's eyelashes.

[yojimbo7248]

I don't get it. All morning I have been reading about Palin, what it means for the campaigns, etc. I have been running across Democratic party, Hillary-supporting women who are quoted as saying now they can whole-heartedly support McCain since he put a woman on the ticket. What the fuck? One organization of Hillary supporters is called Fuck Party Unity or something like that. I don't get this level of hatred toward Obama. I am very reluctant to call people racists. Up to this point thought that it was more of a class thing with these Hillary supporters. Now, however, I'm thinking the hatred must be at least partly because he is half-black. How else do you explain Gloria Steinem types suddenly supporting a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun Republican VP candidate?
Personally, I'm kind of digging her trailer trash Tina Fey look and she is the governor of the greatest state in the union. I used to live blocks away from the governor's mansion in Juneau and I miss the state like crazy. I have seen some idiotic stuff written about Alaska over the last 24 hours. Does the rest of the country really think that it is a 'frozen frontier' filled with igloos, polar bear, and "Eskimos" (I love how the Daily News described Palin's husband as an "Eskimo")? I disagree with her on absolutely everything but nice to see an Alaskan so close to the presidency.

[OGC]

..... I have seen some idiotic stuff written about Alaska over the last 24 hours. Does the rest of the country really think that it is a 'frozen frontier' filled with igloos, polar bear, and "Eskimos" ....


Don't forget the penguins. (yeah I know)

[GreatAmericanZero]

Debate Schedule:

September 26, 2008: Presidential debate with domestic policy focus, University of Mississippi, Oxford, MS

October 2, 2008: Vice Presidential debate, Washington University, St. Louis, MO

October 7, 2008: Presidential debate in a town hall format, Belmont University, Nashville, TN

October 15, 2008:Presidential debate with foreign policy focus, Hofstra University, Hempstead, NY

I'm guessing the ratings on October 2 will be huge in the state of Delaware! haha

wow, Hofstra University? Its going to be crazy in my hometown!

[yojimbo7248]

Don't forget the penguins. (yeah I know)

ha! Alaskans can be a pain in the ass about misperceptoins about the state. when I lived in Juneau, there was a radio show completely devoted to pointed out ways in which the show Northern Exposure got Alaska wrong. most of the details were stupid, nit-picky things and people would get so angry. it has been, however, pretty comical as the world tries to figure out who this Palin is and where the hell she comes from. The Guardian, European press, and anything even remotely connected to Murdoch has been the funniest with the igoo, eskimo, dog-sled imagery. still looking for something on penguins.
sorry for taking this Obama thread toward the Frozen Frontier for a couple of posts.

[KnoxHarrington]

2 days ago Obama gave the best speech of his life. Today, all people are talking about is Sarah Palin and Oprah's eyelashes.

Yeah, and mocking her and asking "What the fuck is McCain thinking?" I don't think that's quite what he wanted here.

[A.J.]

Need I bring up "Still the One" by Orleans?

I was trying to repress that memory.

[A.J.]

I don't get it. All morning I have been reading about Palin, what it means for the campaigns, etc. I have been running across Democratic party, Hillary-supporting women who are quoted as saying now they can whole-heartedly support McCain since he put a woman on the ticket. What the fuck? One organization of Hillary supporters is called Fuck Party Unity or something like that. I don't get this level of hatred toward Obama. I am very reluctant to call people racists. Up to this point thought that it was more of a class thing with these Hillary supporters. Now, however, I'm thinking the hatred must be at least partly because he is half-black. How else do you explain Gloria Steinem types suddenly supporting a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun Republican VP candidate?

Because the "Sisterhood of the Pantsuits" don't like men. Get it?

[HBox]

2 days ago Obama gave the best speech of his life. Today, all people are talking about is Sarah Palin and Oprah's eyelashes.

And all he had to do was make the first big decision as a a potential commander in chief in a completely reckless manner with all thought towards politics and stealing a news cycle and no thought to actual governance.

Putting country first as always.

[epo]

This is how you utilize a running mate:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0e8InFGihHg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0e8InFGihHg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

That ad is obviously running only in Pennsylvania. I don't have any idea on the local vibe, but I would guess that it will be quite effective with the locals.

[JerseySean]

This is how you utilize a running mate:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0e8InFGihHg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0e8InFGihHg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

That ad is obviously running only in Pennsylvania. I don't have any idea on the local vibe, but I would guess that it will be quite effective with the locals.

The fact that, after a 6 month primary, a huge convention, etc. Obama still needs to prove to people that he shares their values, shows a HUGE distrust. Bio stuff should be over by now.

[epo]

The fact that, after a 6 month primary, a huge convention, etc. Obama still needs to prove to people that he shares their values, shows a HUGE distrust. Bio stuff should be over by now.

I would lean to agree with you on that if it were national, but that is an area that Clinton smoked Obama & did some serious damage to him. Now Obama has a lead in Penn and might be using his best asset in the region (Biden) to finish the deal.

I would be intrigued to hear from people with more knowledge of the area on this one.....

[JerseySean]

I would lean to agree with you on that if it were national, but that is an area that Clinton smoked Obama & did some serious damage to him. Now Obama has a lead in Penn and might be using his best asset in the region (Biden) to finish the deal.

I would be intrigued to hear from people with more knowledge of the area on this one.....

I live right near PA and I know the area well. If you want a prediction, Obama will win the state by 2-4 points. Biden helps him there, but I disagree that it is a local problem in PA. I think it will be the case in small town America, which is most of the electorate. It seems like Obama cant pull away here and his biggest challenge is the easiest thing to do which is to define your values.

I had my fantasy football draft a few nights ago in PA. It was in a blue collar neighborhood with a bunch of blue collar union worker. Similiar to Ron Bennington's old neighborhood. They all LOVED Biden, hated Bush, think McCain is the next Bush. They said that they would never vote for a _____er. It is a sad reality but that struck me as being unfortunate. i think that is a lot of this country. And I think its a shame that it comes down to that. Here is the bottom line:

Obama is a blackc Muslim with no experience who we dont like.

McCain is just like Bush and I dont want four more years of that.

This is the choice in the mind of a lot of uninformed voters.

[epo]

I live right near PA and I know the area well. If you want a prediction, Obama will win the state by 2-4 points. Biden helps him there, but I disagree that it is a local problem in PA. I think it will be the case in small town America, which is most of the electorate. It seems like Obama cant pull away here and his biggest challenge is the easiest thing to do which is to define your values.

I had my fantasy football draft a few nights ago in PA. It was in a blue collar neighborhood with a bunch of blue collar union worker. Similiar to Ron Bennington's old neighborhood. They all LOVED Biden, hated Bush, think McCain is the next Bush. They said that they would never vote for a _____er. It is a sad reality but that struck me as being unfortunate. i think that is a lot of this country. And I think its a shame that it comes down to that. Here is the bottom line:

Obama is a blackc Muslim with no experience who we dont like.

McCain is just like Bush and I dont want four more years of that.

This is the choice in the mind of a lot of uninformed voters.

Interesting background.

I don't have any doubts that Governor Rendell will "deliver the state". He is very popular and should make that happen.

The other thing I thought when I saw that ad is that they may be beta-testing that approach in the Scranton area for other rural sections of America to cut through those mis-perceptions.

[Kevin]

This is how you utilize a running mate:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0e8InFGihHg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0e8InFGihHg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

That ad is obviously running only in Pennsylvania. I don't have any idea on the local vibe, but I would guess that it will be quite effective with the locals.

I am Kevin and i approve this message.

[ChrisTheCop]

The other thing I thought when I saw that ad is that they may be beta-testing that approach in the Scranton area for other rural sections of America to cut through those mis-perceptions.

Other ads out of Scranton that may be used nationally:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DiXo78XPdKU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DiXo78XPdKU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I heartily recommend "thumb" at 2:50

[Zorro]

http://www.courant.com/news/politics/ats-ap-cvn-biden-vietnamaug31,0,2934547.story


DOVER, Del. (AP) _ Democratic vice presidential nominee Joe Biden received five student draft deferments during the Vietnam War, the same number of deferments received by Vice President Dick Cheney, and later was disqualified from service because of asthma as a teenager.

Two draft dodging VP's in a row...woo...hoo

[Dude!]

seems he had 5 draft deferments
just like fellow draft dodger cheney

then he mysteriously got asmtha
and got a permament medical deferment
that kept him out of the military

he doesnt seem asmathic sickly to me
*cough*cough*

http://www.courant.com/news/politics/ats-ap-cvn-biden-vietnamaug31,0,2934547.story

[donnie_darko]

um, and we care because?
you go to war you're an asshole (kerry)
you odnt go you're an asshole (cheney)

WHO FUCKING CARES!

no one apparently.

[ChrisTheCop]

One VP hopeful is trying to prove she used to be pregnant,
the other is trying to prove he used to have asthma.

What a country!

[HBox]

um, and we care because?
you go to war you're an asshole (kerry)
you odnt go you're an asshole (cheney)

WHO FUCKING CARES!

no one apparently.

And we're all assholes because we haven't done either!

[JerseySean]

And we're all assholes because we haven't done either!

This stuff is no longer an issue, but if framed against the backdrop of POW McCain, it couldnt hurt McCain.

[Phil_Nubbs]

Actually, his hair plugs hurt my feelings.




Don't take those little spuds to war!

[PapaBear]

I'd TOTALLY vote for an inexperienced black Muslim geriatric draft dodging MILF with a retard kid who might be a grandchild and was tortured as a POW while plagiarizing!

Earl? We got any of those back there?:help:

[DiabloSammich]

This stuff is no longer an issue, but if framed against the backdrop of POW McCain, it couldnt hurt McCain.



Why?

No disrespect to veterans, but why does military service automatically make you a better choice to run the country? I know plenty of people of served their country bravely who I wouldn't let serve me a Big Mac.

I know it sounds like I'm up Biden's asshole, but I've honestly always wondered about this.

[JerseySean]

Why?

No disrespect to veterans, but why does military service automatically make you a better choice to run the country? I know plenty of people of served their country bravely who I wouldn't let serve me a Big Mac.

I know it sounds like I'm up Biden's asshole, but I've honestly always wondered about this.

Umm, honestly because Americans like war heros.

[Ritalin]

Umm, honestly because Americans like war heros.

Like John Kerry?

[DiabloSammich]

Umm, honestly because Americans like war heros.



Americans like American Idol and Super Bowl winning quarterbacks as well.


How great would a Super Bowl winning war hero that was on American Idol be?

Got my vote.

[Foster]

Why?

No disrespect to veterans, but why does military service automatically make you a better choice to run the country? I know plenty of people of served their country bravely who I wouldn't let serve me a Big Mac.

I know it sounds like I'm up Biden's asshole, but I've honestly always wondered about this.

because one of the key roles of being President, is being Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces

[booster11373]

Why?

No disrespect to veterans, but why does military service automatically make you a better choice to run the country? I know plenty of people of served their country bravely who I wouldn't let serve me a Big Mac.

I know it sounds like I'm up Biden's asshole, but I've honestly always wondered about this.

QFT

[A.J.]

http://www.courant.com/news/politics/ats-ap-cvn-biden-vietnamaug31,0,2934547.story

DOVER, Del. (AP) _ Democratic vice presidential nominee Joe Biden received five student draft deferments during the Vietnam War, the same number of deferments received by Vice President Dick Cheney, and later was disqualified from service because of asthma as a teenager.

Two draft dodging VP's in a row...woo...hoo

I'll give ya asthma.

http://www.carlspackler.com/archive/cs_081.jpg

[Tenbatsuzen]

Every time I think "President McCain", I think about Denis Leary's bit about going back and finishing the job in Vietnam.

"You make movie?"

"Not this time, pal!"

[Dude!]

why was the possible vp biden draft-dodger thread buried in here

while the possible vp palin different mama-retard baby thread is kept on its own

seems like you wanted to bury the negative biden headline
but keep the negative palin headline

why is that

[Tenbatsuzen]

Americans like American Idol and Super Bowl winning quarterbacks as well.


How great would a Super Bowl winning war hero that was on American Idol be?

Got my vote.

I'm all for sending Tom Brady to Fallujah.

[Tenbatsuzen]

why was the possible vp biden draft-dodger thread buried in here

while the possible vp palin different mama-retard baby thread is kept on its own

seems like you wanted to bury the negative biden headline
but keep the negative palin headline

why is that

Because you're a jackass. Next question!


http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/michael_silver/11/11/open.mike1111/t1_owens.rosenhaus.jpg

[Tenbatsuzen]

why was the possible vp biden draft-dodger thread buried in here

while the possible vp palin different mama-retard baby thread is kept on its own

seems like you wanted to bury the negative biden headline
but keep the negative palin headline

why is that

And in answer to your question:

Who cares about a 30 year old scandal when you have one that was started about five months ago... so the fact of the matter is, Palin can't parent her child with her own platform policies. So much for that. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080901/pl_nm/usa_politics_palin_dc;_ylt=AnHfGwOc.gq3Tsq4s0tAzyq s0NUE)

[Dudeman]

I don't know the whole story with Biden, yet. But we do know Bush and Quyale did use connections to get out of going to war.

The big difference in analyzing any person who did things to get out of going to Vietnam is how they felt about the war (or perhaps war in general.) If you were supportive of the Vietnam war (ie., Bush, Cheney, Quyale), your position has to be judged differently than those who were actively against it (ie., Clinton in the 60's).

[K.C.]

So I've heard a little bit of a concern about the lack of an Obama bounce out of the DNC.

This may just be explainable by the fact that it usually takes some time for polls to reflect something like a convention (which if it's the case, would show on Monday or Tuesday).

But truthfully, I don't really expect much of a bounce, and here's why:

In 1984, which is the model for maybe the most lopsided election in history, Walter Mondale still earned 41% of the vote.

In any given election year, regardless of quality of candidate or issues, there's is a built-in hard 40% for both the Democrat and Republican.


With race being on the table this year, I'd actually guestimate that extends to a hard 45% for Republicans.

The lowest number I've seen for McCain is 42% in the latest Gallup poll, which is within the margin of error of the 45%.

I really don't expect to see McCain to fall under that 45% number at any point during this election.

In reality, the 49-47, 47-45, 49-48 numbers you continuously see in the polls, I expect to remain static through this election.

I really doubt you'll see a big swing in the numbers similar to the Gore/Bush election in 2000.

[Jujubees2]

Obama's quick. Just got an email from him concerning Gustav about how we should donate to the Red Cross to help the first responders.

[ChrisTheCop]

why was the possible vp biden draft-dodger thread buried in here

while the possible vp palin different mama-retard baby thread is kept on its own

seems like you wanted to bury the negative biden headline
but keep the negative palin headline

why is that

Actually, that is a pretty interesting question... perhaps that thread should be merged as well, despite the fancy new title forgetting it's original purpose.

And in answer to your question:

Who cares about a 30 year old scandal when you have one that was started about five months ago... so the fact of the matter is, Palin can't parent her child with her own platform policies. So much for that. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080901/pl_nm/usa_politics_palin_dc;_ylt=AnHfGwOc.gq3Tsq4s0tAzyq s0NUE)

At least the Biden scandals have to do with the candidate's own actions.

[Tenbatsuzen]

At least the Biden scandals have to do with the candidate's own actions.


Teen pregnancy, especially pushing outdated and outmoded ways of preventing it, directly falls on the parent.

I'm not saying Palin's entirely at fault, but she's got a hand in it.

[epo]

seems he had 5 draft deferments
just like fellow draft dodger cheney

then he mysteriously got asmtha
and got a permament medical deferment
that kept him out of the military

he doesnt seem asmathic sickly to me
*cough*cough*

http://www.courant.com/news/politics/ats-ap-cvn-biden-vietnamaug31,0,2934547.story

Its not like we haven't had a VERY hawk-ish VP for the last 8 years who received 5 deferments himself because he had "more important things to do".

Pot meet kettle.

[Dude!]

Its not like we haven't had a VERY hawk-ish VP for the last 8 years who received 5 deferments himself because he had "more important things to do".

Pot meet kettle.

you shoulda read my post before posting yours

line 2 says

just like fellow draft dodger cheney

now YOU owe ME an apology

[epo]

you shoulda read my post before posting yours

line 2 says

just like fellow draft dodger cheney

now YOU owe ME an apology

Actually, you owe Senator Biden an apology. You nor I know a goddamned thing about his personal medical history.

[DiabloSammich]

Actually, you owe Senator Biden an apology. You nor I know a goddamned thing about his personal medical history.



I'll accept it on his behalf.


You're welcome.

[HBox]

I'll accept it on his behalf.


You're welcome.

You are quite gracious. Those were some scurrilous accusations.

[sailor]

Actually, you owe Senator Biden an apology. You nor I know a goddamned thing about his personal medical history.

apart from the asthma he had the same number of deferments.

[Rube]

Hey,

Want a free Obama button? MoveOn's giving them away totally free--no strings attached. I just got mine, and wanted to share the opportunity with you.

Click this link to get a free Obama button:

http://pol.moveon.org/obamabuttons/?id=-10438890-bEU3jbx&rc=fb.ads.nonyouth

Thanks!

[JerseySean]

Hey,

Want a free Obama button? MoveOn's giving them away totally free--no strings attached. I just got mine, and wanted to share the opportunity with you.

Click this link to get a free Obama button:

http://pol.moveon.org/obamabuttons/?id=-10438890-bEU3jbx&rc=fb.ads.nonyouth

Thanks!

the same group that called a 4 star commander a tratior is giving away Obama buttons for free. HAHAHAHA. Doesnt get any better than that. Thats like a group who blows up abortion clinics handing out McCain/Palin rally signs.

[epo]

the same group that called a 4 star commander a tratior is giving away Obama buttons for free. HAHAHAHA. Doesnt get any better than that. Thats like a group who blows up abortion clinics handing out McCain/Palin rally signs.

Off-topic much?

[JerseySean]

Off-topic much?

I didnt think so but you have more posts so I will now formaslly apologize

[Rube]

I didnt think so but you have more posts so I will now formaslly apologizeI dont think there is a need for apology. All you did was make a statement about the people that are giving away obama buttons. Your cool buddy.

[ChrisTheCop]

I dont think there is a need for apology. All you did was make a statement about the people that are giving away obama buttons. Your cool buddy.

Agreed. It was pretty much on topic, no?

[Rube]

Agreed. It was pretty much on topic, no?Im not sure what was being discussed before that but yes, Agreed.
This post on the other hand has barely any threads related to obama. Perhaps it is now officially off-topic.

[scottinnj]

Hey,

Want a free Obama button? MoveOn's giving them away totally free--no strings attached. I just got mine, and wanted to share the opportunity with you.

Click this link to get a free Obama button:

http://pol.moveon.org/obamabuttons/?id=-10438890-bEU3jbx&rc=fb.ads.nonyouth

Thanks!

I'm like this close to ordering one for my "Obama is the Anti-Christ" mom. Should I?

[HBox]

I'm like this close to ordering one for my "Obama is the Anti-Christ" mom. Should I?

Sure, if you are comfortable with Move On knowing where you live.

[scottinnj]

Oh I'd put her phone number and address on it. Let her deal with the mailings. Anyone else, it'd be a done deal by now. But it's my mom dude....

But it's goddamned funny!:devil2:

But it's my mom!:innocent:

WHAT SHOULD I DO?

[Kevin]

Americans like American Idol and Super Bowl winning quarterbacks as well.


How great would a Super Bowl winning war hero that was on American Idol be?

Got my vote.

How about the Mannings for Prez And VP.. Red and Blue states UNITE!!

[HBox]

Oh I'd put her phone number and address on it. Let her deal with the mailings. Anyone else, it'd be a done deal by now. But it's my mom dude....

But it's goddamned funny!:devil2:

But it's my mom!:innocent:

WHAT SHOULD I DO?

DO IT.

[scottinnj]

DO IT.

Done. She'll be pissed, but it's for the good of furthering comedy.

[Kevin]

Done. She'll be pissed, but it's for the good of furthering comedy.

I'm sure it would blow over in a couple of days.

[scottinnj]

I'm sure it would blow over in a couple of days.

I don't know. She narced on me once to the cops and got me a ticket. But I always told her I'd get her back.

[Kevin]

I don't know. She narced on me once to the cops and got me a ticket. But I always told her I'd get her back.

Oh then you have to do it.

YOU MUST DO IT!!

I say you go one step further, and add, because he's black..

THAT WILL LEARN HER.

[epo]

I don't know. She narced on me once to the cops and got me a ticket. But I always told her I'd get her back.

Just think of the mailing lists she'll be on now.

"My fellow Americans please help..................", thank you, Nancy Pelosi!

[scottinnj]

Oh then you have to do it.

YOU MUST DO IT!!

I say you go one step further, and add, because he's black..

THAT WILL LEARN HER.

Dude, it sucked. I passed a guy on Shore Road (all double lines) and in front of him was a cop. He followed me into my fucking driveway, and was about to let me go with a warning, when my mom came out and asked him what I did.

When he told her, she says, "I told you when you did that with your permit you shouldn't do that" and out came the ticket folder.

[scottinnj]

Just think of the mailing lists she'll be on now.

"My fellow Americans please help..................", thank you, Nancy Pelosi!

I might as well have bought her a copy of the Satanists Bible.

[K.C.]

A little electoral math:

Obama
California (55)
Connecticut (7)
Delaware (3)
District Of Columbia (3)
Hawaii (4)
Illinois (21)
Iowa (7)
Maine (4)
Maryland (10)
Massachusettes (12)
Michigan (17)
New Hampshire (4)
New Jersey (15)
New Mexico (5)
New York (31)
Oregon (7)
Pennsylvania (21)
Rhode Island (4)
Vermont (3)
Washington (11)
Wisconsin (10)
Total: 254 Electoral Votes

McCain
Alabama (9)
Alaska (3)
Arizona (10)
Arkansas (6)
Georgia (15)
Idaho (4)
Indiana (11)
Kansas (6)
Kentucky (8)
Louisiana (9)
Mississippi (6)
Missouri (11)
Nebraska (5)
North Dakota (3)
Oklahoma (7)
North Carolina (15)
South Carolina (8)
South Dakota (3)
Tennessee (11)
Texas (34)
Utah (5)
Wyoming (3)
Total: 192 Electoral Votes

I'd say those are virtual locks as far as the electoral vote goes, barring some scandal that just rocks one campaign and takes it off the map.

Toss-Up
Colorado (9)
Florida (27)
Minnesota (10)
Montana (3) (yes...Montana!)
Nevada (5)
Ohio (20)
Virginia (13)
West Virginia (5)
Total: 92 Electoral Votes


Obama needs 16 electoral votes out of this group, by my math, to hit the magic 270 number.

I did this to illustrate a point, of once again, why I think McCain's campaign is akin to Kerry's in '04.

Kerry put himself in the position where he had to run the table with Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Ohio or Florida to beat Bush.

Bush was able to target two states for the majority of his campaign, and take out Kerry that way.

It is MUCH easier to play offense (Bush's position) than defense (Kerry's position) in electoral math.

Obama has any number of choices he can go after and concentrate his resources. He can pour a little of each into all the toss-ups. He can target an Ohio or Florida and throw everything into one state. He can try a combo like Colorado-Nevada or Colorado-Virginia.

He has so many option.

McCain has to weave this web of denying Obama at every turn. Wherever Obama goes, he has to counter, because he has to almost run the table on the Toss-Up states to hit the magic 270.

That's such a difficult thing to pull off.

Everything, in terms of historical trends, favors Obama as of right now.

[NickyL0885]

I was watching Real Time with Bill Maher and he brought up two good points that scare me.


1. That Palin will be looked at as a feel good story. A working mother who juggles her family and work. So, alot of single working moms will relate an vote for her.


2. That Biden cant attack her too hard in the debates. B/c then it will look like a man beating up a women. They made a good point that a man cant debate a woman. If Biden is too vicious, it can look bad. Women will be immeadiately turned off and think "how dare he talk to her like that!". Yes, its a debate an Palin should know it can happen but the women of america wont look at it that way.

[JerseySean]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/01/obama-defends-natural-disaster-experience/

this is a losing issue for Obama. As I said before, if the talk becomes about Obama's experience vs Palin's, then McCain wins that

[cougarjake13]

I was watching Real Time with Bill Maher and he brought up two good points that scare me.


1. That Palin will be looked at as a feel good story. A working mother who juggles her family and work. So, alot of single working moms will relate an vote for her.


2. That Biden cant attack her too hard in the debates. B/c then it will look like a man beating up a women. They made a good point that a man cant debate a woman. If Biden is too vicious, it can look bad. Women will be immeadiately turned off and think "how dare he talk to her like that!". Yes, its a debate an Palin should know it can happen but the women of america wont look at it that way.



i agree on those 2 points and add my opinion that maybe he was hoping that by picking her he might pick up the hillary supporters who are undecided or wont vote for obama

[epo]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/01/obama-defends-natural-disaster-experience/

this is a losing issue for Obama. As I said before, if the talk becomes about Obama's experience vs Palin's, then McCain wins that

Comparing Palin's experience to anyone is just silly. She is simply overmatched on this level at this point of her career. And McCain is doing her a disservice by pulling her up to this level before she is ready.

[GreatAmericanZero]

I was watching Real Time with Bill Maher and he brought up two good points that scare me.


1. That Palin will be looked at as a feel good story. A working mother who juggles her family and work. So, alot of single working moms will relate an vote for her.


2. That Biden cant attack her too hard in the debates. B/c then it will look like a man beating up a women. They made a good point that a man cant debate a woman. If Biden is too vicious, it can look bad. Women will be immeadiately turned off and think "how dare he talk to her like that!". Yes, its a debate an Palin should know it can happen but the women of america wont look at it that way.

i think a lot of women hate other women...especially those that are prettier than they are. And conservative women like a man in charge. A nice alpha male

It really is liberal women that like other women (like "Oprah"). I think Anne Coulter's following is more male based

[JerseySean]

Comparing Palin's experience to anyone is just silly. She is simply overmatched on this level at this point of her career. And McCain is doing her a disservice by pulling her up to this level before she is ready.

Whatever, you may be right but the bottom line is that Obama is now comparing himself to Palin...loser for him

[GreatAmericanZero]

Whatever, you may be right but the bottom line is that Obama is now comparing himself to Palin...loser for him

"haha Obama is so bad he's actually comparing himself to our shitty candidate"

[JerseySean]

"haha Obama is so bad he's actually comparing himself to our shitty candidate"

the question is, would you rather have a President who is coaching a successor and teaching that person the job and helpuing that person get that experience or rather have the VP telling the President what to do?

[epo]

Whatever, you may be right but the bottom line is that Obama is now comparing himself to Palin...loser for him

Actually Senator Obama hasn't actively made that comparison at all. The right-wing was really pounding that sorry ass talking point of "Palin has more experience than Obama" all day yesterday.

With Cooper he was asked the question about organizations and Obama told him what he knew about Palin. He should avoid the question totally, but seriously....let's stop with this "she's experienced" bit. It's simply so far from true that it hurts the credibility of the person spewing it.

In fact, today it was pointed out that her "the Governor is in charge of the National Guard" thing was bullshit as well. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/31/alaska-national-guard-gen_n_122860.html)

Maj. Gen. Craig Campbell, adjutant general of the Alaska National Guard, considers Palin "extremely responsive and smart" and says she is in charge when it comes to in-state services, such as emergencies and natural disasters where the National Guard is the first responder.

But, in an interview with The Associated Press on Sunday, he said he and Palin play no role in national defense activities, even when they involve the Alaska National Guard. The entire operation is under federal control, and the governor is not briefed on situations.

[epo]

the question is, would you rather have a President who is coaching a successor and teaching that person the job and helpuing that person get that experience or rather have the VP telling the President what to do?

I'd rather have President Barack Obama and his Vice President Joe Biden.

Thanks.

[GreatAmericanZero]

the question is, would you rather have a President who is coaching a successor and teaching that person the job and helpuing that person get that experience or rather have the VP telling the President what to do?

but - and i explained this many a-times, we have had months of Obama pleading his case, watching what kind of person he is, watching him public speak and make decisions and judgements. These past months we really got to know the man. So I feel way more comfortable taking a chance on him from what I've seen

[JerseySean]

Actually Senator Obama hasn't actively made that comparison at all. The right-wing was really pounding that sorry ass talking point of "Palin has more experience than Obama" all day yesterday.



“My understanding is that Gov. Palin’s town, Wassilla, has I think 50 employees. We've got 2500 in this campaign. I think their budget is maybe 12 million dollars a year – we have a budget of about three times that just for the month,” Obama responded."-Barack Hussein Obama

I am talking about politics here dude and he blundered.

[Kevin]

While at the Gym, i saw that fox news had a poll that had Obama up 50 42. Take for what its worth.. Its his highest margin to date.

[angrymissy]

“My understanding is that Gov. Palin’s town, Wassilla, has I think 50 employees. We've got 2500 in this campaign. I think their budget is maybe 12 million dollars a year – we have a budget of about three times that just for the month,” Obama responded."-Barack Hussein Obama

I am talking about politics here dude and he blundered.

#1 - How is that a blunder?

#2 - Are you SERIOUSLY playing the "Hussein" game? I don't see you referring to McCain as "John SYDNEY McCain".

[ladyface]

Working class women may well take to Palin, but not once they've heard her speak or scramble to cover her dirty tracks. These revelations are seriously embarrassing for the Republican Party, but, instead of falling for talking about it directly, they're going on the attack. It's the best defense mechanism, the only one, particularly in our squalid times.

[angrymissy]

While at the Gym, i saw that fox news had a poll that had Obama up 50 42. Take for what its worth.. Its his highest margin to date.

Yep.

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080902DailyUpdateGraph1_cnwprms.gif

[GreatAmericanZero]

#1 - How is that a blunder?

#2 - Are you SERIOUSLY playing the "Hussein" game? I don't see you referring to McCain as "John SYDNEY McCain"

yeah i was wondering how thats a blunder, i agree with it. It is a great point

[epo]

“My understanding is that Gov. Palin’s town, Wassilla, has I think 50 employees. We've got 2500 in this campaign. I think their budget is maybe 12 million dollars a year – we have a budget of about three times that just for the month,” Obama responded."-Barack Hussein Obama

I am talking about politics here dude and he blundered.

Now it's Hussein time?

Do you really want to go into the mud with me?

[Tall_James]

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080902DailyUpdateGraph1_cnwprms.gif

Graphs and charts??!!?!?!?!! My brain can't comprehend!

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c174/cheeseeatingbird/8y5jyb.gif

[GreatAmericanZero]

Yep.

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080902DailyUpdateGraph1_cnwprms.gif

but Missy, you're a woman. Aren't you suppose to be "oh so impressed" that someone else who also happens to be a woman is on a ticket? I thought that was how its suppose to work - A vote in the BANK!

[angrymissy]

but Missy, you're a woman. Aren't you suppose to be "oh so impressed" that someone else who also happens to be a woman is on a ticket? I thought that was how its suppose to work - A vote in the BANK!

I KNOW RITE! Phsaw, why am I worryin my little head about complicated things like elections... she has 5 KIDS! That's enough for me!

She skeeves me.

[Kevin]

Graphs and charts??!!?!?!?!! My brain can't comprehend!

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c174/cheeseeatingbird/8y5jyb.gif

Can't get enough of that.

[angrymissy]

Graphs and charts??!!?!?!?!! My brain can't comprehend!

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c174/cheeseeatingbird/8y5jyb.gif

http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/17.gif

[Kevin]

I KNOW RITE! Phsaw, why am I worryin my little head about complicated things like elections... she has 5 KIDS! That's enough for me!

She skeeves me.

Any woman that lets her young daughter wildly have unprotected sex, shows she works outside the box and can be trusted to have new and innovative idea's. She won't conform to the masses.

[JerseySean]

Now it's Hussein time?

Do you really want to go into the mud with me?

You guys dont see how this is a blunder huh? It would be great if Obama was running for VP, not for the big chair. Whats wrong with Hussein, its hius middle name.

[BinaryBimbo]

i agree on those 2 points and add my opinion that maybe he was hoping that by picking her he might pick up the hillary supporters who are undecided or wont vote for obama

To be honest I think it is more intended to bring back the Right leaning women who were swayed to vote Dem in the Primaries because of Hillary. She is just the wrong pick to use for Hillarys core imo.

Maher makes some good points there; but I always cringe when he quoted for his opinion because he is a comedian, and I'm not convinced everyone understands where he is coming from. He hates Bush - that's a given. What is dangerous for folks using a comedy show for news is that in comedy it is common to lie or embelish to make a better joke. It's probably still more informative than MSNBC though.

[JerseySean]

Yep.

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080902DailyUpdateGraph1_cnwprms.gif

Nice convention bounce. Lets see what it look like a week from now. I say Obama 45 McCain 44. any other predictions?

[angrymissy]

You guys dont see how this is a blunder huh? It would be great if Obama was running for VP, not for the big chair. Whats wrong with Hussein, its hius middle name.

Why don't you refer to McCain as John Sydney McCain?

Because you have to resort to gay scare tactics like OH LOOK - HE HAS A FUNNY MIDDLE NAME - JUST LIKE THAT GUY IN IRAQ, OMGZ TERRORIST.

Lame.

[angrymissy]

Nice convention bounce. Lets see what it look like a week from now. I say Obama 45 McCain 44. any other predictions?

The 50%/42% number was today. He's enjoying a bounce even after McCain announced his VP and his convention started.

[epo]

You guys dont see how this is a blunder huh? It would be great if Obama was running for VP, not for the big chair. Whats wrong with Hussein, its hius middle name.

The same people who use Senator Obama's middle name to "make a point" that he is a commie or he doesn't qualify are the same people that refer to the Democratic Party as the "democrat party" as a means to degrade their status.

Both are examples of using rhetoric to make your opponent to seem as less than they are.

Face facts my man, President Barack Hussein Obama is in your future.

[HBox]

Why don't you refer to McCain as John Sydney McCain?

Because you have to resort to gay scare tactics like OH LOOK - HE HAS A FUNNY MIDDLE NAME - JUST LIKE THAT GUY IN IRAQ, OMGZ TERRORIST.

Lame.

Sydney?

SYDNEY!!!!!!!!!!

That's the capital of a whole different country! MY GOD! When he says "Country First", HE MEANS AUSTRALIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[foodcourtdruide]

You guys dont see how this is a blunder huh? It would be great if Obama was running for VP, not for the big chair. Whats wrong with Hussein, its hius middle name.

I'm still not sure. A VP can and has become President.

[Kevin]

The 50%/42% number was today. He's enjoying a bounce even after McCain announced his VP and his convention started.

Well, it did help that McCain looks like he threw a dart at a dart board of woman politicians to pick his VP..

[foodcourtdruide]

The 50%/42% number was today. He's enjoying a bounce even after McCain announced his VP and his convention started.

These polls are so silly.

[epo]

Sydney?

SYDNEY!!!!!!!!!!

That's the capital of a whole different country! MY GOD! When he says "Country First", HE MEANS AUSTRALIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you realize that the man didn't have the middle name Syndey for 5.5 years in that cell?

[Kevin]

Sydney?

SYDNEY!!!!!!!!!!

That's the capital of a whole different country! MY GOD! When he says "Country First", HE MEANS AUSTRALIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And i heard its actually spelled Sidney and he is actually really Jewish.

[JerseySean]

The 50%/42% number was today. He's enjoying a bounce even after McCain announced his VP and his convention started.

I agree. Lets see what happens one week from today.

[Kevin]

Do you realize that the man didn't have the middle name Syndey for 5.5 years in that cell?

He was in a cell? Really? when?

Fucking criminal.

[HBox]

He was in a cell? Really? when?

Fucking criminal.

I can't believe he is trying to use his flagrant violation of North Vietnamese laws as a positive.

[Kevin]

I can't believe he is trying to use his flagrant violation of North Vietnamese laws as a positive.

How do we expected him to run our great nation when he can't respect the boarders and laws of other nations?

[BinaryBimbo]

Comparing Palin's experience to anyone is just silly. She is simply overmatched on this level at this point of her career. And McCain is doing her a disservice by pulling her up to this level before she is ready.

I don't buy that. Most Presidents have been former Governors, and all indications are that she has run Alaska just fine while in the job.

To be honest it is clear to me that Obama is the one with zero managerial exp. and he has been running for President almost from the moment he became a Senator. He has authored no signature legislation; I can't think of one accomplishment he acchieved in Illinois besides winning a couple elections, and he had to redraw his own district map with the Chicago Party bosses after losing the first shot at it just to win.

Obama can't win that argument, and bringing it up would only serve to show just how little he has accomplished and how thin his own resume is.

I believe if Dems stick to issues, (whenever they get around to discussing them seriously), they will win this race; but so far character assasination of McCain has backfired on them. One year ago no one would give any Republican a shot in Hell to win this race, and now they are virtually tied.

IMO Going after this woman and her Daughters is political suicide; just as attacking McCaine on his military service backfires. Dems think they need to follow Rovian politics to win; but it is not translating into the slam dunk everyone thought it would be. Somehow Obama needs to get back to being above the fray, and project that optimism that enabled him to get this far. Negative for Dems is not working, and attacking everyMom is not going to work either.

[JerseySean]

I don't buy that. Most Presidents have been former Governors, and all indications are that she has run Alaska just fine while in the job.

To be honest it is clear to me that Obama is the one with zero managerial exp. and he has been running for President almost from the moment he became a Senator. He has authored no signature legislation; I can't think of one accomplishment he acchieved in Illinois besides winning a couple elections, and he had to redraw his own district map with the Chicago Party bosses after losing the first shot at it just to win.

Obama can't win that argument, and bringing it up would only serve to show just how little he has accomplished and how thin his own resume is.

I believe if Dems stick to issues, (whenever they get around to discussing them seriously), they will win this race; but so far character assasination of McCain has backfired on them. One year ago no one would give any Republican a shot in Hell to win this race, and now they are virtually tied.

IMO Going after this woman and her Daughters is political suicide; just as attacking McCaine on his military service backfires. Dems think they need to follow Rovian politics to win; but it is not translating into the slam dunk everyone thought it would be. Somehow Obama needs to get back to being above the fray, and project that optimism that enabled him to get this far. Negative for Dems is not working, and attacking everyMom is not going to work either.

Oh but didnt you know Obama has authored the landmark bill of our time. THE OBAMA-LUGAR act. Saved America

[BinaryBimbo]

How do we expected him to run our great nation when he can't respect the boarders and laws of other nations?

At least he can spell it.

I got an idea' let's laugh at the troops in Iraq next! They are such Stupid dying idiots.

[BinaryBimbo]

Oh but didnt you know Obama has authored the landmark bill of our time. THE OBAMA-LUGAR act. Saved America

He didn't write it. 'nuff said.

Only guy with a similar legislative record to run for President was John Kerry. No signature legislation in 20 years of Congress.

[HBox]

I believe if Dems stick to issues, (whenever they get around to discussing them seriously), they will win this race; but so far character assasination of McCain has backfired on them. One year ago no one would give any Republican a shot in Hell to win this race, and now they are virtually tied.

WHAT character assassination of McCain? Every speaker at the DNC had to go out of the way to honor McCain before talking about him. The closest thing done by the Obama campaign was the house thing, which came after McCain mocked him all summer for being a celebrity, oh, and also after saying that Obama puts politics before whats good for the country. They've turned that disgusting attack into McCain's current campaign slogan!

I really have no idea what you are talking about.

[JerseySean]

He didn't write it. 'nuff said.

Only guy with a similar legislative record to run for President was John Kerry. No signature legislation in 20 years of Congress.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/person.xpd?id=412260

A 5 month congressman has a bigger record of accomplishment than Obama, a Senator for four years

[epo]

Oh but didnt you know Obama has authored the landmark bill of our time. THE OBAMA-LUGAR act. Saved America

So Nuclear Proliferation is meaningless? I guess the terrorists will be thrilled to hear about THAT!

By the way, the name of the bill is the Lugar/Obama Proliferation Act.

[foodcourtdruide]

WHAT character assassination of McCain? Every speaker at the DNC had to go out of the way to honor McCain before talking about him. The closest thing done by the Obama campaign was the house thing, which came after McCain mocked him all summer for being a celebrity, oh, and also after saying that Obama puts politics before whats good for the country. They've turned that disgusting attack into McCain's current campaign slogan!

I really have no idea what you are talking about.

That's what I was thinking. McCain has attacked OBAMA'S character, not the other way around. If anything, the only thing that got Obama traction in the polls (though I think polls are pointless) was when he attacked McCain on the house thing.

[Kevin]

By the way, the name of the bill is the Lugar/Obama Proliferation Act.

http://www.midwestwrestling.com/images5/luger2.jpg

As you can see here, the guy he wrote it with was wildly successful.

[JerseySean]

So Nuclear Proliferation is meaningless? I guess the terrorists will be thrilled to hear about THAT!

By the way, the name of the bill is the Lugar/Obama Proliferation Act.

OK fine run on it. And it alone. See where that gets you.

[JerseySean]

http://www.midwestwrestling.com/images5/luger2.jpg

As you can see here, the guy he wrote it was wildly successful.

HAHA. Prize closet

[epo]

That's what I was thinking. McCain has attacked OBAMA'S character, not the other way around. If anything, the only thing that got Obama traction in the polls (though I think polls are pointless) was when he attacked McCain on the house thing.

I would like to point out that McCain's campaign went directly into the mud the moment the general election started. I love the rich irony of complains that Senator Obama is "playing dirty" in this election.

[JerseySean]

I would like to point out that McCain's campaign went directly into the mud the moment the general election started. I love the rich irony of complains that Senator Obama is "playing dirty" in this election.

Theyve both played dirty since day one. McCain dirtier. Guys this is politics and it works and every President we HAVE EVER HAD, aside from Wahington did it. THEY ALL WILL DO IT FOREVER! The difference is Obama promised a new kind of politics, then went straight into the mud and refused to go to town halls with McCain which would have been a nice change and a refreshing idea.

[JerseySean]

check this out.

http://www.politico.com/static/PPM41_palin.html

[HBox]

To be honest it is clear to me that Obama is the one with zero managerial exp. and he has been running for President almost from the moment he became a Senator.

Running a campaign is experience. And I think its more relevant than Palin's experience. She's the governor of a state that is very small and is culturally and politically far removed from the rest of the states. In the Senate Obama has had to deal with national issues and foreign policy issues. In his campaign he has had to build a state by state organization. He's been under the heaviest public scrutiny for over 2 years, ahving to answer questions from the press on any and every issue affect this country, the state he happens to be in that day, the county he happens to be in that day.

Palin was governor of a glorified petrostate. In her experience she has never had to deal with a serious budget. The oil revenues are so great for the state that there is no state income taxes; instead they send all citizens a check for oil revenues. They also get 1.87 for every dollar they pay in federal taxes. She hasn't had any experience with having to make tough budget decisions. Alaska isn't just any other state. It's so different that the experience gained up there can't really be translated to any other state in the union let alone the nation as a whole. I'm not saying it counts for nothing, but there are so many critical issues that being governor of Alaska offers no relevant experience whatsoever simply because of the unique environment up there. And she's only done this for less than 2 years anyway.

[JerseySean]

Running a campaign is experience. And I think its more relevant than Palin's experience. She's the governor of a state that is very small and is culturally and politically far removed from the rest of the states. In the Senate Obama has had to deal with national issues and foreign policy issues. In his campaign he has had to build a state by state organization. He's been under the heaviest public scrutiny for over 2 years, ahving to answer questions from the press on any and every issue affect this country, the state he happens to be in that day, the county he happens to be in that day.

Palin was governor of a glorified petrostate. In her experience she has never had to deal with a serious budget. The oil revenues are so great for the state that there is no state income taxes; instead they send all citizens a check for oil revenues. They also get 1.87 for every dollar they pay in federal taxes. She hasn't had any experience with having to make tough budget decisions. Alaska isn't just any other state. It's so different that the experience gained up there can't really be translated to any other state in the union let alone the nation as a whole. I'm not saying it counts for nothing, but there are so many critical issues that being governor of Alaska offers no relevant experience whatsoever simply because of the unique environment up there. And she's only done this for less than 2 years anyway.

Running a campaign is not experience if you are the candidate. You arent managing shit. If you want to sayt Axelrod has experience to be President because he is acutally running the campaign then ok.

[KatPw]

Sydney?

SYDNEY!!!!!!!!!!

That's the capital of a whole different country! MY GOD! When he says "Country First", HE MEANS AUSTRALIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I for one welcome our kangaroo overlords.

[GreatAmericanZero]

Running a campaign is not experience if you are the candidate. You arent managing shit. If you want to sayt Axelrod has experience to be President because he is acutally running the campaign then ok.

you don't think public speaking, convincing people to vote for them, making decisions based on achieving your objective isn't a good test for a good president?

[angrymissy]

you don't think public speaking, convincing people to vote for them, making decisions based on achieving your objective isn't a good test for a good president?

I don't think you understand, gaz. His middle name is HUSSEIN. I mean, c'mon.

[JerseySean]

you don't think public speaking, convincing people to vote for them, making decisions based on achieving your objective isn't a good test for a good president?

Um no.

[TheMojoPin]

I for one welcome our kangaroo overlords.

POTD.

[GreatAmericanZero]

Um no.

you said before that its the campaign manager running everything in his campaign. What about the fact that he chose his campaign manager? If he runs a good campaign, doesn't it prove that he could put qualified people in positions they will excel at? He does choose whether or not to listen to the man at the end of the day? I think it says a lot. And I'm a voter who doesn't just vote with one party or the other every single time

[JerseySean]

If he runs a good campaign, doesn't it prove that he could put qualified people in positions they will excel at? He does choose whether or not to listen to the man at the end of the day?

Possibly but that means anyone who hires anyone is qualified. The campaign qualification is wek to me.

[TheMojoPin]

Um no.

In the US Senate alone, he's written 890 bills. He's co-sponsored another 1,100-plus bills.

- He's had significant bills related to education (the Hope Act, which increased Pell Grants and also boosted training and resources for teachers who work in high-need schools).

- He worked with Senator Coburn (and McCain, coincidentally) on the government transparency act. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Funding_Accountability_and_Transparency_Ac t_of_2006)

- Authored a bill that aimed to reduce the threat of nuclear and conventional weapons by foreign countries and terrorists. Signed into law Jan. 11, 2007.

- Authored one of the largest ethics reform bills in US history, passed and signed into law in 2007. More info here. (http://www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=12761)

- Introduced the Global Poverty Act, which will work to fight poverty through aid, trade and debt relief.

Here's a rough breakdown of his bills by topic:

233 healthcare reform bills
125 on poverty and public assistance
112 crime-related bills
97 economic bills
60 human rights and anti-discrimination bills
21 ethics reform bills
15 gun control bills

Of course, people won't agree with all of his bills...that's why there are different parties and points of view here...but he's certainly introduced some significant legislation, whether you agree with it or not. I'll admit that I don't agree with all of his policies and legislation either.

Finally, here's a massive list of things he's worked on. (http://www.statesurge.com/members/923-barack-obama-federal) Granted, many bills that have Senators' names on them are fluff and don't require much work, but it's just false to say that he hasn't done anything in the Senate. Having his name on 2,000 bills is significant.

And again, that's just the US Senate. He did lots of great work in the Illinois Senate, but that apparently doesn't matter.

[HBox]

And again, that's just the US Senate. He did lots of great work in the Illinois Senate, but that apparently doesn't matter.

And yet, at the same time, being the Mayor of Wasilla does matter to some.

[JerseySean]

In the US Senate alone, he's written 890 bills. He's co-sponsored another 1,100-plus bills.

- He's had significant bills related to education (the Hope Act, which increased Pell Grants and also boosted training and resources for teachers who work in high-need schools).

- He worked with Senator Coburn (and McCain, coincidentally) on the government transparency act. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Funding_Accountability_and_Transparency_Ac t_of_2006)

- Authored a bill that aimed to reduce the threat of nuclear and conventional weapons by foreign countries and terrorists. Signed into law Jan. 11, 2007.

- Authored one of the largest ethics reform bills in US history, passed and signed into law in 2007. More info here. (http://www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=12761)

- Introduced the Global Poverty Act, which will work to fight poverty through aid, trade and debt relief.

Here's a rough breakdown of his bills by topic:

233 healthcare reform bills
125 on poverty and public assistance
112 crime-related bills
97 economic bills
60 human rights and anti-discrimination bills
21 ethics reform bills
15 gun control bills

Of course, people won't agree with all of his bills...that's why there are different parties and points of view here...but he's certainly introduced some significant legislation, whether you agree with it or not. I'll admit that I don't agree with all of his policies and legislation either.

Finally, here's a massive list of things he's worked on. (http://www.statesurge.com/members/923-barack-obama-federal) Granted, many bills that have Senators' names on them are fluff and don't require much work, but it's just false to say that he hasn't done anything in the Senate. Having his name on 2,000 bills is significant.

And again, that's just the US Senate. He did lots of great work in the Illinois Senate, but that apparently doesn't matter.

He passed one bill. He is candidate X according to Clinton. One bill, one nothing bill. Also the ethics bill was written by Senate leadership. It was a campaign bill. they put his name on it because he was supposed to represent new Democatic Party.

[epo]

In the US Senate alone, he's written 890 bills. He's co-sponsored another 1,100-plus bills.

- He's had significant bills related to education (the Hope Act, which increased Pell Grants and also boosted training and resources for teachers who work in high-need schools).

- He worked with Senator Coburn (and McCain, coincidentally) on the government transparency act. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Funding_Accountability_and_Transparency_Ac t_of_2006)

- Authored a bill that aimed to reduce the threat of nuclear and conventional weapons by foreign countries and terrorists. Signed into law Jan. 11, 2007.

- Authored one of the largest ethics reform bills in US history, passed and signed into law in 2007. More info here. (http://www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=12761)

- Introduced the Global Poverty Act, which will work to fight poverty through aid, trade and debt relief.

Here's a rough breakdown of his bills by topic:

233 healthcare reform bills
125 on poverty and public assistance
112 crime-related bills
97 economic bills
60 human rights and anti-discrimination bills
21 ethics reform bills
15 gun control bills

Of course, people won't agree with all of his bills...that's why there are different parties and points of view here...but he's certainly introduced some significant legislation, whether you agree with it or not. I'll admit that I don't agree with all of his policies and legislation either.

Finally, here's a massive list of things he's worked on. (http://www.statesurge.com/members/923-barack-obama-federal) Granted, many bills that have Senators' names on them are fluff and don't require much work, but it's just false to say that he hasn't done anything in the Senate. Having his name on 2,000 bills is significant.

And again, that's just the US Senate. He did lots of great work in the Illinois Senate, but that apparently doesn't matter.

Geez....why would truth matter? After all, his middle name is Hussein!

[epo]

And yet, at the same time, being the Mayor of Wasilla does matter to some.

Since it's near Russia and next to Canada, it's like great foreign policy experience.

[BinaryBimbo]

Running a campaign is experience. And I think its more relevant than Palin's experience. She's the governor of a state that is very small and is culturally and politically far removed from the rest of the states. In the Senate Obama has had to deal with national issues and foreign policy issues. In his campaign he has had to build a state by state organization. He's been under the heaviest public scrutiny for over 2 years, ahving to answer questions from the press on any and every issue affect this country, the state he happens to be in that day, the county he happens to be in that day.

Palin was governor of a glorified petrostate. In her experience she has never had to deal with a serious budget. The oil revenues are so great for the state that there is no state income taxes; instead they send all citizens a check for oil revenues. They also get 1.87 for every dollar they pay in federal taxes. She hasn't had any experience with having to make tough budget decisions. Alaska isn't just any other state. It's so different that the experience gained up there can't really be translated to any other state in the union let alone the nation as a whole. I'm not saying it counts for nothing, but there are so many critical issues that being governor of Alaska offers no relevant experience whatsoever simply because of the unique environment up there. And she's only done this for less than 2 years anyway.

How many years was she a Mayor? That is all executive experience. Not that I am trying to make her case; but Obama loses this everytime.

Everyone knows that handlers handle elections; all he has to do is speak intelligently. So when we look at his campaign we see he blew the Veep commitee he put together, and he screwed up royally with the Preacher messes. He made every wrong choice he could have with the Wright deal, and the Ayers thing won't go away either. He did not pick Hillary when all the political hacks say that was a sure winner. What little display he has of his managerial skills is not pretty.

Obama needs to run against McCain on the issues or he will lose. He has lost every character issue to date, and he seems to have peaked electorally months ago.

Sure - folks can laugh at the McCain relying on his POW story, or on this womans family; but that sort of tactic will almost surely backfire in the end. Women vote more than men do, and if they feel like this lady is being unfairly slimed they will vote for her. The only way to handle her is to debate her abortion policy views, and statements, and hope Obama can refocus his campaign to get back that optimism he exuded earlier this year in Iowa and S. Carolina.

[TheMojoPin]

How many years was she a Mayor? That is all executive experience. Not that I am trying to make her case; but Obama loses this everytime.

Why? That implies executive experience automatically trumps everything.

[BinaryBimbo]

Geez....why would truth matter? After all, his middle name is Hussein!

Most of the bills he is on are Resolutions; not laws. Because our Congress lately is the lowest producing Congress in history it is impossible for him to have signed that many real laws in the three plus years he has been there.

So he voted and they slapped his name on the bill for voting.

He did not write one law. Zero.

I like the guy, and I want him to win. Embellishing his accomplishments and/or attacking Palin and her kids won't win him anything. There are too many Hannity's out there willing to dig up proof of reality, and I can't stress enough that the vast majority of women who vote will not take kindly to bashing the woman McCain picked for Veep.

[JerseySean]

Why? That implies executive experience automatically trumps everything.

Not automatically but it does trump his. she governs a HUGE economy and is an energy expert. She has made more decisions on energy in 2 years as Governor than Obama ever has.

[JerseySean]

Why? That implies executive experience automatically trumps everything.

160 Times Present trumps everything doesnt it?

[BinaryBimbo]

Why? That implies executive experience automatically trumps everything.

I am trying to imply that a bitch match between Obama and Palin makes Obama look weaker than her, and he would be stupid to remind US of how little he has actually accomplished besides winning a few elections.

[JerseySean]

I am trying to imply that a bitch match between Obama and Palin makes Obama look weaker than her, and he would be stupid to remind US of how little he has actually accomplished besides winning a few elections.

Correctamundo

[HBox]

How many years was she a Mayor? That is all executive experience. Not that I am trying to make her case; but Obama loses this everytime.

You are seriously going to count that as more relevant than Obama's state senate experience? Please explain this to me because I don't get it at all.

Everyone knows that handlers handle elections; all he has to do is speak intelligently. So when we look at his campaign we see he blew the Veep commitee he put together, and he screwed up royally with the Preacher messes. He made every wrong choice he could have with the Wright deal, and the Ayers thing won't go away either. He did not pick Hillary when all the political hacks say that was a sure winner. What little display he has of his managerial skills is not pretty.

So he's supposed to pick Hillary just because she will help him win? He's losing points because he didn't listen to, in your exact words, "political hacks?"

There's more to being President than getting everything right politically.

And how did he blow the Wright thing? He gave a widely lauded speech to put the thing to rest. Beyond that what could he possibly do? And its gone now anyway. When was the last time that was even mentioned? The Ayers thing isn't getting any traction either.

Obama needs to run against McCain on the issues or he will lose. He has lost every character issue to date, and he seems to have peaked electorally months ago.

His speech last week was on nothing but the issues and yet you are here saying that Obama is pounding McCain on character. McCain is the constantly pounding on character and Obama is the on constantly pounding on issues.

Sure - folks can laugh at the McCain relying on his POW story, or on this womans family; but that sort of tactic will almost surely backfire in the end. Women vote more than men do, and if they feel like this lady is being unfairly slimed they will vote for her.

I think you have a very low opinion of women voter's intelligence.

The only way to handle her is to debate her abortion policy views, and statements, and hope Obama can refocus his campaign to get back that optimism he exuded earlier this year in Iowa and S. Carolina.

He is. But he can't just coast into November without making contrasts with McCain. And he can't let McCain's personal attacks go unanswered as well.

[epo]

Not automatically but it does trump his. she governs a HUGE economy and is an energy expert. She has made more decisions on energy in 2 years as Governor than Obama ever has.

HUGE economy? $31,410,000 in 2003. (http://www.classbrain.com/artstate/publish/economy_of_alaska.shtml) Which is 0.3% of the total US economy. I'd like to know how the fuck you define "HUGE".

Energy expert? Please explain.

[TheMojoPin]

I am trying to imply that a bitch match between Obama and Palin makes Obama look weaker than her, and he would be stupid to remind US of how little he has actually accomplished besides winning a few elections.

Why would there even be a "bitch match" between them? Obama just has to worry about stacking up against McCain. Palin is left to Biden. Pretty silly strategy if that's what the Republicans were counting on. Obama doesn't have to touch Palin.

[JerseySean]

Why would there even be a "bitch match" between them? Obama just has to worry about stacking up against McCain. Palin is left to Biden. Pretty silly strategy if that's what the Republicans were counting on. Obama doesn't have to touch Palin.

“My understanding is that Gov. Palin’s town, Wassilla, has I think 50 employees. We've got 2500 in this campaign. I think their budget is maybe 12 million dollars a year – we have a budget of about three times that just for the month,” Obama responded.

Umm he did

[JerseySean]

HUGE economy? $31,410,000 in 2003. (http://www.classbrain.com/artstate/publish/economy_of_alaska.shtml) Which is 0.3% of the total US economy. I'd like to know how the fuck you define "HUGE".

Energy expert? Please explain.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26484038#26484038

She has worked on the pipeline, it is the biggest GDP source for her state, etc. That is one thing all American will see.

[BinaryBimbo]

He passed one bill. He is candidate X according to Clinton. One bill, one nothing bill. Also the ethics bill was written by Senate leadership. It was a campaign bill. they put his name on it because he was supposed to represent new Democatic Party.

Ssshh - Everyone believes Obama is a legislative dynamo, and the Party doesn't want to face the inconvienant truths inherant in the argument.

He has one main thing going for him besides his race; he had us beliving he would be a different sort of leader that was worth taking a chance on to get the country moving in the right direction. If he doesn't get back to that he can't pull this off. What Obama said in Iowa in his acceptance speech was what works for him - it was all talk of a new way of governing with new people from outside the beltway. His main topic to begin the campaign is gone from the publics view - Iraq. At one time he could argue his way was wiser; then the surge went and worked.

He needs to capatilize on his likeability, and his view for America under his leadership; playing Rovian politics will only help McCain at this juncture imo.

[epo]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26484038#26484038

She has worked on the pipeline, it is the biggest GDP source for her state, etc. That is one thing all American will see.

Wait, she said she's got this energy expertise? Holy shit, then it must be true!

I heard that Dick Cheney was an energy expert too!

[BinaryBimbo]

Why would there even be a "bitch match" between them? Obama just has to worry about stacking up against McCain. Palin is left to Biden. Pretty silly strategy if that's what the Republicans were counting on. Obama doesn't have to touch Palin.

The public percieves 521's as the candidate's message. Even if he denies it is his choice, if he can't rein in his own people to follow his publically stated wishes he looks weak and not ready to lead.

[TheMojoPin]

The public percieves 521's as the candidate's message. Even if he denies it is his choice, if he can't rein in his own people to follow his publically stated wishes he looks weak and not ready to lead.

So he'll look strong if he goes out of his way to tell them not to not challenge their opponents. Got it.

[HBox]

The public percieves 521's as the candidate's message. Even if he denies it is his choice, if he can't rein in his own people to follow his publically stated wishes he looks weak and not ready to lead.

It's 527s, and I don't think that's true. There was a 527 ad trying to portray Obama as a potential terrorist because of his Ayers connections. It didn't make much impact and it certainly wasn't connected to McCain.

[TheMojoPin]

Ssshh - Everyone believes Obama is a legislative dynamo, and the Party doesn't want to face the inconvienant truths inherant in the argument.

Shhhhhhh...passing bills doesn't make up the entirety of one's work in the senate.

[JerseySean]

Shhhhhhh...passing bills doesn't make up the entirety of one's work in the senate.

Agreed, but dont claim to be a leader or having accomplishments

[TheMojoPin]

Agreed, but dont claim to be a leader or having accomplishments

So you accomplish nothing as a senator unless you pass bills?

[BinaryBimbo]

You are seriously going to count that as more relevant than Obama's state senate experience? Please explain this to me because I don't get it at all.

Senate experience at any level is legislative; while Mayors, and Governors are Executive. The President is Executive.

So he's supposed to pick Hillary just because she will help him win? He's losing points because he didn't listen to, in your exact words, "political hacks?"

There's more to being President than getting everything right politically.

Those political hacks are well studied in the subject, and I can guarentee you that most will blame his not picking Hillary if he loses this. His Washington career will end before he ever accomplishes anything meaningful.

And how did he blow the Wright thing? He gave a widely lauded speech to put the thing to rest. Beyond that what could he possibly do? And its gone now anyway. When was the last time that was even mentioned? The Ayers thing isn't getting any traction either.

Speech was a great move. Calling Grandma a racist, and saying that Wright was like family and he could never walk away from him was stupid. Three or Four weeks later he walked away from Wright and claims to have sparsley attended his most controversal Sermons. No one is really buying that.

His speech last week was on nothing but the issues and yet you are here saying that Obama is pounding McCain on character. McCain is the constantly pounding on character and Obama is the on constantly pounding on issues.

Okay - I am not clear on what I'm saying then. I mean to convey that Left wing political activists are considered one and the same as the Dem candidate, and if he can't do more than lip service to stop the disgusting personal attacks on the womans family he again shows that he isn't ready to lead. The public will rightly conclude he either approves of the garbage, or is too weak to lead his own Party. Never, ever do something in politics because another guy does it. Tit for tat only serves to piss off the public when your entire campaign is built upon being a new type of leader.

I think you have a very low opinion of women voter's intelligence.

I think I understand how women react to bashing a woman for simply being a woman, and how they percieve the fact that the Daughter is called a tart while the Boy is called a hockey stud. It helped Hillary to gather many cross Party voters this Primary season, and many of those same women are still very interested in a woman in the White House. Women will mostly conclude that facts say she is a Mother and a Governor, and that is all the experience anyone needs to delegate authority.

He is. But he can't just coast into November without making contrasts with McCain. And he can't let McCain's personal attacks go unanswered as well.

He can attack McCain on past votes in Congress, and stated policy; there really is not enough there to label him as lacking in moral qualities, and that sort of attack only begs McCain to bring up the fact that Obama wrote that when he had extra coin he would 'maybe get a little blow' to go with his other admitted drug abuse. Then there is Ayers. He doesn't want to go there.

[BinaryBimbo]

So you accomplish nothing as a senator unless you pass bills?

Yeah. You are not an accomplished legislator until you have authored/sponsored meaningful laws. Any moron can vote yay or nay.

As to the above on the 527's - He should be way ahead in this race according to conventional political wisdom - something has pulled back his popularity since South Carolina. It's either the 527 ads or Obama himself. The message is not working the way it was expected to; I just think it wise to reconize these things, and make the necessary changes like any good manager would do.

[JerseySean]

So you accomplish nothing as a senator unless you pass bills?

So he voted yes present,and no sometimes. Asked a few questions in hearings. So Larry Craig is qualified to be President?

[epo]

Senate experience at any level is legislative; while Mayors, and Governors are Executive. The President is Executive.



So are you saying that any level of executive trumps any level of legislative?

[Dudeman]

He has one main thing going for him besides his race; he had us beliving he would be a different sort of leader that was worth taking a chance on to get the country moving in the right direction. .

Well besides his positions on various tpoics (ie. sex-ed in the classroom), the other thing he has going for him is that he is brilliant. Unlike (below) average presidents (Regan and W. Bush), we have the opportunity to have a very smart person as president. There is no wait to fake your way through being president of Harvard Law Review. For me, I like having smart people making decisions.

[BinaryBimbo]

And i heard its actually spelled Sidney and he is actually really Jewish.

Touche.:smile:

[BinaryBimbo]

WHAT character assassination of McCain? Every speaker at the DNC had to go out of the way to honor McCain before talking about him. The closest thing done by the Obama campaign was the house thing, which came after McCain mocked him all summer for being a celebrity, oh, and also after saying that Obama puts politics before whats good for the country. They've turned that disgusting attack into McCain's current campaign slogan!

I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Okay - let's look at the convention bounce; maybe - just maybe not trashing McCain or insinuating he is dating lobbyists or that his long military service doesn't add anything to his abilities is working.

Let McCains people play dirty if they must - I really don't think it helps the Democratics except with the Party base to play that game in return. His numbers were shrinking steadily before the convention, and he barely won a Primary after Super Tuesday; he lost all the important toss up states as well. Hillary could have played this game and won on it; I don't think Obama can. The public is fickle, and Obama is supposed to be different.

He already hurt his own credibility with swing voters over the campaign finance flip flop; if this Palin lady's family is chewed up by the Left he loses all credibility for his change mantra.That is the bed he made for himself, and he needs to get comfortable sleeping in it while hopefully McCain comes off as a bitter old fart on the attack.

[HBox]

senate experience at any level is legislative; while Mayors, and Governors are Executive. The President is Executive.

I think that's way to simple a way to look at it, and in this case it's transparently so. People aren't going to look at being Mayor of a 9000 person town as relevant experience for the Presidency, nor should they. The differences in scale are massive. just massive. Being mayor of a tiny town in Alaska doesn't expose you to experience in like 95% of the job of the President. There are executive jobs that give you relevant experience and ones that don't. This doesn't. Knowing how to run a town is useless if you don't know the difference between Shia and Shiites.

She'll get credit for being Governor of Alaska, but its so short and the closer you look at it the less it becomes relevant.

Speech was a great move. Calling Grandma a racist, and saying that Wright was like family and he could never walk away from him was stupid. Three or Four weeks later he walked away from Wright and claims to have sparsley attended his most controversal Sermons. No one is really buying that.

Whatever its effects as an issue its over.

Okay - I am not clear on what I'm saying then. I mean to convey that Left wing political activists are considered one and the same as the Dem candidate, and if he can't do more than lip service to stop the disgusting personal attacks on the womans family he again shows that he isn't ready to lead. The public will rightly conclude he either approves of the garbage, or is too weak to lead his own Party. Never, ever do something in politics because another guy does it. Tit for tat only serves to piss off the public when your entire campaign is built upon being a new type of leader.

Even on that level the right overshadows the left. Obama is a secret Muslim? Obama was really born in Kenya? Obama is a secret terrorist? Michelle Obama hates whities?

And I disagree that this stuff gets attached to candidates. Bush did this over and over again for 8 years and never paid for it or was even considered connected to it outside the left. Right wing groups called Kerry a liar and said McCain fathered two black children.

[BinaryBimbo]

Well besides his positions on various tpoics (ie. sex-ed in the classroom), the other thing he has going for him is that he is brilliant. Unlike (below) average presidents (Regan and W. Bush), we have the opportunity to have a very smart person as president. There is no wait to fake your way through being president of Harvard Law Review. For me, I like having smart people making decisions.

And there you go; you basically just said you want him as President not because of how he has governed. You respect his intellect, and college career. I don't think most people view intelligence as the major trait they need in a President - generally proven leadership is the most valuable asset.

[BinaryBimbo]

So are you saying that any level of executive trumps any level of legislative?

No - I'm saying that Obamas thin Legislative experience doesn't equal Palins thin executive experience for a managerial position. I don't see how he could claim more readiness than she can. Besides it looks silly if he tries to make a case that he is more experienced than McCains No. 2.

[JerseySean]

Well besides his positions on various tpoics (ie. sex-ed in the classroom), the other thing he has going for him is that he is brilliant. Unlike (below) average presidents (Regan and W. Bush), we have the opportunity to have a very smart person as president. There is no wait to fake your way through being president of Harvard Law Review. For me, I like having smart people making decisions.

Reagan destoyed the Soviet Union and Bush went to Yale and Harvard. Sorry they couldnt be "community organizers"

[BinaryBimbo]

I think that's way to simple a way to look at it, and in this case it's transparently so. People aren't going to look at being Mayor of a 9000 person town as relevant experience for the Presidency, nor should they. The differences in scale are massive. just massive. Being mayor of a tiny town in Alaska doesn't expose you to experience in like 95% of the job of the President. There are executive jobs that give you relevant experience and ones that don't. This doesn't. Knowing how to run a town is useless if you don't know the difference between Shia and Shiites.

She'll get credit for being Governor of Alaska, but its so short and the closer you look at it the less it becomes relevant.



Whatever its effects as an issue its over.



Even on that level the right overshadows the left. Obama is a secret Muslim? Obama was really born in Kenya? Obama is a secret terrorist? Michelle Obama hates whities?

And I disagree that this stuff gets attached to candidates. Bush did this over and over again for 8 years and never paid for it or was even considered connected to it outside the left. Right wing groups called Kerry a liar and said McCain fathered two black children.

No one is buying that crap that will vote, (very few anyway).

You are comparing Bush who was propped up by a Party that Hated Clinton to Obama a new kind of politician who brings hope and the possibility to help America heal deep racial wounds. They simply are two different races.

You have to remember what got all these NEW Dem voters this time. Change that looked real, a Woman running with a real shot at winning, a Black man running with a real shot at winning; many of these voters will not stick around for a slugfest - that's not what attracted them to this race.

[GreatAmericanZero]

Reagan destoyed the Soviet Union and Bush went to Yale and Harvard. Sorry they couldnt be "community organizers"

bush only went to harvard and yale because of who his father is. this may be a shocker, but rich wealthy alumni of those schools, their kids get in

[Dudeman]

And there you go; you basically just said you want him as President not because of how he has governed. You respect his intellect, and college career. I don't think most people view intelligence as the major trait they need in a President - generally proven leadership is the most valuable asset.

yes, i am pro-smart people (and thus anti-dumb people in positions of power)

[JerseySean]

So are you saying that any level of executive trumps any level of legislative?

It is just funny. If you read that opp research file on her I posted earlier, they critisized her for being too inexperienced and too extreme on social issues. 80% approval.

[JerseySean]

bush only went to harvard and yale because of who his father is. this may be a shocker, but rich wealthy alumni of those schools, their kids get in

Yes but he graduated, both schools.

[Kevin]

Yes but he graduated, both schools.

With help and a C AVG...

[brettmojo]

It is just funny. If you read that opp research file on her I posted earlier, they critisized her for being too inexperienced and too extreme on social issues. 80% approval.

Eskimos and fur traders like her... Good for them.

Yes but he graduated, both schools.
And I'm sure they're proud.

[HBox]

No one is buying that crap that will vote, (very few anyway).

You are comparing Bush who was propped up by a Party that Hated Clinton to Obama a new kind of politician who brings hope and the possibility to help America heal deep racial wounds. They simply are two different races.

You have to remember what got all these NEW Dem voters this time. Change that looked real, a Woman running with a real shot at winning, a Black man running with a real shot at winning; many of these voters will not stick around for a slugfest - that's not what attracted them to this race.

it seems like we just disagree so I'll just sum up what I think: As long as Obama sticks to the types of attacks against McCain he had in his speech last week he'll be fine. Nor do I think he will pay for overzealous 527 or supporters. Obama simply has no control over it and I think people recognize that. And seeing as 527 ads on both sides have been much lower than in the past I don't think it will end up making a difference.

[GreatAmericanZero]

With help and a C AVG...

eggggggggggggggggggggggggggzacktly

and you know with Bush's money and his fathers power he had access to the best private tutors in the world

I remember reading a while ago what W's SAT scores were..i can't remember exactly what it was but i remember that mine was higher. I went to the University of Albany. I graduated with a B average

[JerseySean]

eggggggggggggggggggggggggggzacktly

and you know with Bush's money and his fathers power he had access to the best private tutors in the world

I remember reading a while ago what W's SAT scores were..i can't remember exactly what it was but i remember that mine was higher. I went to the University of Albany. I graduated with a B average

Right, Bush is dumb. Are you kidding?

[brettmojo]

Right, Bush is dumb. Are you kidding?
Are you kidding?

[GreatAmericanZero]

Right, Bush is dumb. Are you kidding?

hes a born again christian...that is the epitome of being a dummy

[JerseySean]

hes a born again christian...that is the epitome of being a dummy

Well you just showed your intellect. Come on dude

[yojimbo7248]

Right, Bush is dumb. Are you kidding?

Bush is definitely not dumb. Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Stephen Cambone and many other neo-cons inside and outside of the administration are absolutely brilliant. However, they were all often wrong because they are ideologues. For example, they believe that we can remove the leaders in the Arab world, convert the people to the American way of life, and then the whole region will be a pro-US, pro-Israel wonderland where American corporations can remove oil and sell products at will. There have been brilliant people in all empires and history has consistently proven them wrong. Read mid-nineteenth century British writers. They are brilliant but see they saw the world through their white man burden, 'free trade' lenses. Bush is not stupid but his prejudices and ideology made him think that the Iraqis would welcome us as liberators.

[thejives]

How many years was she a Mayor? That is all executive experience. Not that I am trying to make her case; but Obama loses this everytime.

Everyone knows that handlers handle elections; all he has to do is speak intelligently. So when we look at his campaign we see he blew the Veep commitee he put together, and he screwed up royally with the Preacher messes. He made every wrong choice he could have with the Wright deal, and the Ayers thing won't go away either. He did not pick Hillary when all the political hacks say that was a sure winner. What little display he has of his managerial skills is not pretty.

Obama needs to run against McCain on the issues or he will lose. He has lost every character issue to date, and he seems to have peaked electorally months ago.

Sure - folks can laugh at the McCain relying on his POW story, or on this womans family; but that sort of tactic will almost surely backfire in the end. Women vote more than men do, and if they feel like this lady is being unfairly slimed they will vote for her. The only way to handle her is to debate her abortion policy views, and statements, and hope Obama can refocus his campaign to get back that optimism he exuded earlier this year in Iowa and S. Carolina.

Most of the bills he is on are Resolutions; not laws. Because our Congress lately is the lowest producing Congress in history it is impossible for him to have signed that many real laws in the three plus years he has been there.

So he voted and they slapped his name on the bill for voting.

He did not write one law. Zero.

I like the guy, and I want him to win. Embellishing his accomplishments and/or attacking Palin and her kids won't win him anything. There are too many Hannity's out there willing to dig up proof of reality, and I can't stress enough that the vast majority of women who vote will not take kindly to bashing the woman McCain picked for Veep.

I am trying to imply that a bitch match between Obama and Palin makes Obama look weaker than her, and he would be stupid to remind US of how little he has actually accomplished besides winning a few elections.

Ssshh - Everyone believes Obama is a legislative dynamo, and the Party doesn't want to face the inconvienant truths inherant in the argument.

He has one main thing going for him besides his race; he had us beliving he would be a different sort of leader that was worth taking a chance on to get the country moving in the right direction. If he doesn't get back to that he can't pull this off. What Obama said in Iowa in his acceptance speech was what works for him - it was all talk of a new way of governing with new people from outside the beltway. His main topic to begin the campaign is gone from the publics view - Iraq. At one time he could argue his way was wiser; then the surge went and worked.

He needs to capatilize on his likeability, and his view for America under his leadership; playing Rovian politics will only help McCain at this juncture imo.

The public percieves 521's as the candidate's message. Even if he denies it is his choice, if he can't rein in his own people to follow his publically stated wishes he looks weak and not ready to lead.

He can attack McCain on past votes in Congress, and stated policy; there really is not enough there to label him as lacking in moral qualities, and that sort of attack only begs McCain to bring up the fact that Obama wrote that when he had extra coin he would 'maybe get a little blow' to go with his other admitted drug abuse. Then there is Ayers. He doesn't want to go there.

Yeah. You are not an accomplished legislator until you have authored/sponsored meaningful laws. Any moron can vote yay or nay.

As to the above on the 527's - He should be way ahead in this race according to conventional political wisdom - something has pulled back his popularity since South Carolina. It's either the 527 ads or Obama himself. The message is not working the way it was expected to; I just think it wise to reconize these things, and make the necessary changes like any good manager would do.

Okay - let's look at the convention bounce; maybe - just maybe not trashing McCain or insinuating he is dating lobbyists or that his long military service doesn't add anything to his abilities is working.

Let McCains people play dirty if they must - I really don't think it helps the Democratics except with the Party base to play that game in return. His numbers were shrinking steadily before the convention, and he barely won a Primary after Super Tuesday; he lost all the important toss up states as well. Hillary could have played this game and won on it; I don't think Obama can. The public is fickle, and Obama is supposed to be different.

He already hurt his own credibility with swing voters over the campaign finance flip flop; if this Palin lady's family is chewed up by the Left he loses all credibility for his change mantra.That is the bed he made for himself, and he needs to get comfortable sleeping in it while hopefully McCain comes off as a bitter old fart on the attack.

And there you go; you basically just said you want him as President not because of how he has governed. You respect his intellect, and college career. I don't think most people view intelligence as the major trait they need in a President - generally proven leadership is the most valuable asset.

No - I'm saying that Obamas thin Legislative experience doesn't equal Palins thin executive experience for a managerial position. I don't see how he could claim more readiness than she can. Besides it looks silly if he tries to make a case that he is more experienced than McCains No. 2.

No one is buying that crap that will vote, (very few anyway).

You are comparing Bush who was propped up by a Party that Hated Clinton to Obama a new kind of politician who brings hope and the possibility to help America heal deep racial wounds. They simply are two different races.

You have to remember what got all these NEW Dem voters this time. Change that looked real, a Woman running with a real shot at winning, a Black man running with a real shot at winning; many of these voters will not stick around for a slugfest - that's not what attracted them to this race.

This is just from the last three pages. Not one link.

I hope you'll start making sense. I'm starting to think you're a board character.

[TheMojoPin]

I have more than a hunch that BinaryBimbo is ShowerBench.

[HBox]

I have more than a hunch that BinaryBimbo is ShowerBench.

Why didn't I see that earlier?
:wallbash:

[DiabloSammich]

I have more than a hunch that BinaryBimbo is ShowerBench.


Finkel is Einhorn?

[JerseySean]

Why is it that everyone who disagrees is not a serious poster, yet "He's a born again Christian of course he's stupid" is perfectly fine with you guys. Sorry but that is typical bullshit liberal behavior

[brettmojo]

Finkel is Einhorn?
Einhorn... Is Finkle?

[thejives]

I have more than a hunch that BinaryBimbo is ShowerBench.

Totally.
Remember how showerbench used to say how much he/she supported Democrats but if Hillary lost he/she would vote McCain because all that matters is experience.

Such a waste of time talking in circles with such a poster.

McCain can disavow them all he wants but it won't help Obama escape being successfully cast as the lily livered inexperienced/effeminate kid with two Muslim fathers and a weird church.

[JerseySean]

Totally.
Remember how showerbench used to say how much he/she supported Democrats but if Hillary lost he/she would vote McCain because all that matters is experience.

Such a waste of time talking in circles with such a poster.

You did quote a funny line there though

[GreatAmericanZero]

Why is it that everyone who disagrees is not a serious poster, yet "He's a born again Christian of course he's stupid" is perfectly fine with you guys. Sorry but that is typical bullshit liberal behavior

is it? I never met a "born again christian" who hasn't annoyed the shit out of me

[JerseySean]

is it? I never met a "born again christian" who hasn't annoyed the shit out of me

Ive met thousands and I agree the constant desire to pray can get annoying, Im Catholic and keep mny prayer to myself, but it doesnt make them stupid

[brettmojo]

Ive met thousands and I agree the constant desire to pray can get annoying, Im Catholic and keep mny prayer to myself, but it doesnt make them stupid
Stupidity and religion is a totally different discussion.

[GreatAmericanZero]

Ive met thousands and I agree the constant desire to pray can get annoying, Im Catholic and keep mny prayer to myself, but it doesnt make them stupid

ok it makes them *insert negative derogatory statement of your choice here*

[scottinnj]

“My understanding is that Gov. Palin’s town, Wassilla, has I think 50 employees. We've got 2500 in this campaign. I think their budget is maybe 12 million dollars a year – we have a budget of about three times that just for the month,” Obama responded."-Barack Hussein Obama

I am talking about politics here dude and he blundered.

Ah, it's good to be on the inside. Me and the brother are tight. I just call him Barry. 'Cause I can.:clap:

[HBox]

You've met thousands? As in at least 2000. You've met at least 2000 evangelicals?

PLEASE STOP QUOTING HIM. THIS INSANITY IS STILL REACHING ME EVEN THOUGH I HAVE HIM ON INGORE.

[angrymissy]

Pronto doesn't like born-agains who come knocking at the door

Pronto loves when GAZ comes knocking

GAZ > born agains

[JerseySean]

You've met thousands? As in at least 2000. You've met at least 2000 evangelicals?

PLEASE STOP QUOTING HIM. THIS INSANITY IS STILL REACHING ME EVEN THOUGH I HAVE HIM ON INGORE.

Yea I've been to multiple Christian Coalition conventions in DC, and various other gatherings for other organizations. Theyre our base

[TheMojoPin]

Yea I've been to multiple Christian Coalition conventions in DC, and various other gatherings for other organizations. Theyre our base

Sadly.

[scottinnj]

With help and a C AVG...

Please guys, don't go down this road. The right is quick to point out Professor Gore's science scores were abysmal while he slid through lawyer school.

Yet we're to follow him down the Global Warming road as if he was playing a magic flute, according to the left.

[GreatAmericanZero]

Pronto doesn't like born-agains who come knocking at the door

Pronto loves when GAZ comes knocking

GAZ > born agains

awww. miss pronto

[scottinnj]

You've met thousands? As in at least 2000. You've met at least 2000 evangelicals?

PLEASE STOP QUOTING HIM. THIS INSANITY IS STILL REACHING ME EVEN THOUGH I HAVE HIM ON INGORE.

sorry

[GreatAmericanZero]

Please guys, don't go down this road. The right is quick to point out Professor Gore's science scores were abysmal while he slid through lawyer school.

Yet we're to follow him down the Global Warming road as if he was playing a magic flute, according to the left.

but Gore lost his election and hes not running in this one soooooooooooo its irrelevant to anything we are discussing.

[thejives]

sorry

You're penance: 5 more Asians in the hot chick pic thread.
Go, my son.

[scottinnj]

but Gore lost his election and hes not running in this one soooooooooooo its irrelevant to anything we are discussing.

True dat. Neither is Bush. But your point is comepletely valid, and Obama has tasty grades from college and graduate school.

[scottinnj]

You're penance: 5 more Asians in the hot chick pic thread.
Go, my son.

No problem. There's billions of 'em.

[thejives]

No problem. There's billions of 'em.

Not the actual ones ... just pictures.

[yojimbo7248]

You're penance: 5 more Asians in the hot chick pic thread.
Go, my son.

yes, please. I am still disturbed at how few Asians (Orientals to you Southerners) we have on the Ronfez.net messageboard. We can make up for it by posting more pictures of Asian chicks.

[thejives]

yes, please. I am still disturbed at how few Asians (Orientals to you Southerners) we have on the Ronfez.net messageboard. We can make up for it by posting more pictures of Asian chicks.

The Olympics weren't enough for you, were they.

[scottinnj]

The Olympics weren't enough for you, were they.

Oh no. The Chinese have this thing about drowning baby girls for "poplulation control"

Fucking sausage fest over there.

[GreatAmericanZero]

Oh no. The Chinese have this thing about drowning baby girls for "poplulation control"

Fucking sausage fest over there.

more like miniature cocktail franks



GONG!

[thejives]

Oh no. The Chinese have this thing about drowning baby girls for "poplulation control" Fucking sausage fest over there.

more like miniature cocktail franks
GONG!

I'm shocked. just shocked.

[K.C.]

yes, please. I am still disturbed at how few Asians (Orientals to you Southerners) we have on the Ronfez.net messageboard. We can make up for it by posting more pictures of Asian chicks.

I can speak Asian.

CHING-CHONG! CHING-CHONG!

That means I loathe the the 'Ask The Oracle' forum.

[scottinnj]

Oh no. The Chinese have this thing about drowning baby girls for "poplulation control"

Fucking sausage fest over there.

more like miniature cocktail franks



GONG!

I'm shocked. just shocked.

I can speak Asian.

CHING-CHONG! CHING-CHONG!

That means I loathe the the 'Ask The Oracle' forum.

okay, okay. My dad said while he was stationed in China after WWII that they name their girls by throwing forks down the stairs, since you get a lot of pings and tings from the fork tines, and the boys are named by throwing spoons down the stairs hence a lot of dongs and pongs.

Now that I've totally put the thread in racist territory, go over to the Hot Chicks forum, rub one out to what I've posted and return ready to debate.

Topic over.

[thejives]

Yeah.

Racism's over now.

[BinaryBimbo]

I have more than a hunch that BinaryBimbo is ShowerBench.

Well you are wrong; but I also see that anything outside your realm of understanding causes you to slander and demean.

I've made the most coherant arguments on here today, and that bugs you because I'm not toeing your Party line.

Bottom line is you don't know what the fuck you are talking about, and therefore you insult me.

You owe me an apology; but I won't stick around to hear it because frankly I don't give a damn who you think I am.

It's been kinda fun chatting with you folks for the most part; but alas I'm both bored and disgusted with the lies, slander, and ignorance exhibited herein.

You will feel safer now that a strong voice has vacated your presence; but you will still be stupid until you open your mind to more than partisan crapola.

[JerseySean]

Well you are wrong; but I also see that anything outside your realm of understanding causes you to slander and demean.

I've made the most coherant arguments on here today, and that bugs you because I'm not toeing your Party line.

Bottom line is you don't know what the fuck you are talking about, and therefore you insult me.

You owe me an apology; but I won't stick around to hear it because frankly I don't give a damn who you think I am.

It's been kinda fun chatting with you folks for the most part; but alas I'm both bored and disgusted with the lies, slander, and ignorance exhibited herein.

You will feel safer now that a strong voice has vacated your presence; but you will still be stupid until you open your mind to more than partisan crapola.

Dude dont take your ball and go home that is what they do when they lose a debate. They hit ignore.

[HBox]

Well you are wrong; but I also see that anything outside your realm of understanding causes you to slander and demean.

I've made the most coherant arguments on here today, and that bugs you because I'm not toeing your Party line.

Bottom line is you don't know what the fuck you are talking about, and therefore you insult me.

You owe me an apology; but I won't stick around to hear it because frankly I don't give a damn who you think I am.

It's been kinda fun chatting with you folks for the most part; but alas I'm both bored and disgusted with the lies, slander, and ignorance exhibited herein.

You will feel safer now that a strong voice has vacated your presence; but you will still be stupid until you open your mind to more than partisan crapola.

Now I'm sure you are Showerbench.

[thejives]

You owe me an apology; but I won't stick around to hear it because frankly I don't give a damn who you think I am.


Come back Shane! Come Back!
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/pictures/2000/02/03/Shane.jpg