Immigration Battle 2009-10

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Sure, let's do that, that will work.

12% of US Army enlisted personnel are hispanics, by the way.

What does that mean? Are you assuming that everyone of that 12% supports illegal immigration?



There are a lot of border patrol agents who are of Latin American background. 2 of them were given 12 year jail sentences for shooting an illegal bringing drugs into the country until Bush commuted their sentences

[Barnaby Jones]

At the height of the Iraq war we were spending about 10 billion a month. The cost would not be even close to that if they were on the border. Besides there are some bases already near the border. Ft Huachuca AZ is one of them

Why do you respond to every point with something that nobody brought up?!!? Nobody brought up the cost of the Iraq War! I simply asked if you knew the estimates of what it would cost to simply deploy the military seal of the borders, since you clearly have no idea! You do realize the difference between deploying the armed forces and actually fighting a war, right? You do realize that deploying our armed forces still costs a ton of money even if they're from nearby bases, right? What, did you think all of the specialized maintenance costs and refueling and supplies and pay and what not were just write-offs? Charity? How do you possibly think that securing all of our borders (and ultimately it would have to be all of them!) on a daily basis essentially forever would be cheaper than the costs of illegal immigration? Defense spending is by far the most astronomically expensive thing we dump our money into, and you just want to blow it up even more! All of your claims that you want a smaller, less bloated government and less spending and that this is about saving money is a sham!

[booster11373]

That was a win for me

No you fail

If your point is to sway others to your opinion you fail

If your point is to inform you fail

You fail

[Barnaby Jones]

What does that mean? Are you assuming that everyone of that 12% supports illegal immigration?



There are a lot of border patrol agents who are of Latin American background. 2 of them were given 12 year jail sentences for shooting an illegal bringing drugs into the country until Bush commuted their sentences

I'd pay good money to see WF's realization when someone breaks down the socioeconomic makeup of our armed forces and what that means for a good portion of that 12%!

[Syd]

If birthright citizenship ends, I want special privileges on account of me being of a superior race to most of the scots-irish mongrels that live in America.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Why do you respond to every point with something that nobody brought up?!!? Nobody brought up the cost of the Iraq War! I simply asked if you knew the estimates of what it would cost to simply deploy the military seal of the borders, since you clearly have no idea! You do realize the difference between deploying the armed forces and actually fighting a war, right? You do realize that deploying our armed forces still costs a ton of money even if they're from nearby bases, right? What, did you think all of the specialized maintenance costs and refueling and supplies and pay and what not were just write-offs? Charity? How do you possibly think that securing all of our borders (and ultimately it would have to be all of them!) on a daily basis essentially forever would be cheaper than the costs of illegal immigration? Defense spending is by far the most astronomically expensive thing we dump our money into, and you just want to blow it up even more! All of your claims that you want a smaller, less bloated government and less spending and that this is about saving money is a sham!

Youre not going to get an arguement from me about defense spending. Its too much. However like I stated before we already have bases near the border. If we would stop sending troops 7000 miles away and keep them here, imagine what it would do to the local economies? Soldiers and Marines go to bars, movies and shop too.

Its not a sham. Enforcement/Deportations can happened if wasting money on entitlements for illegals would stop. Also disband some useless bureaucracies like the DHS, Dept of Agriculture and Education Department. Also scrap some of these unnecessary fighter jet programs and other weapons systems Our DoD budget is over 700 billion. The savings right there would be more than enough to pay for immigration enforcement

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No you fail

If your point is to sway others to your opinion you fail

If your point is to inform you fail

You fail




You fail if you think youre going to convince me that another Amnesty bill will solve the illegal immigration problem

[booster11373]

You fail if you think youre going to convince me that another Amnesty bill will solve the illegal immigration problem

Sad, another failed post

[Barnaby Jones]

Youre not going to get an arguement from me about defense spending. Its too much. However like I stated before we already have bases near the border. If we would stop sending troops 7000 miles away and keep them here, imagine what it would do to the local economies? Soldiers and Marines go to bars, movies and shop too.

Its not a sham. Enforcement/Deportations can happened if wasting money on entitlements for illegals would stop. Also disband some useless bureaucracies like the DHS, Dept of Agriculture and Education Department. Also scrap some of these unnecessary fighter jet programs and other weapons systems Our DoD budget is over 700 billion. The savings right there would be more than enough to pay for immigration enforcement

Say it with me now: IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT THE BASES ARE NEAR THE BORDER!

[Serpico1103]

"Scholars" where to begin. Smart does not equal wisdom. 2 lawyers arguing opposite sides of 1 case. Is one more correct than the other ? Yes. Can you tell by the educational pedigree ? No , because education does not translate into integrity,honesty,....principles. does smart mean the judge will make the correct decision ? No.
My position is not that his opinion isn't valid merely because he isn't a scholar. (I know how intellect is such a hated commodity in the right wing.) But, that stating something is so clearly obvious, when scholars are still debating it makes you look foolish.


a_n= {1/2a_(n-1) for a_(n-1)even
3a_(n-1)+1 for a_(n-1) odd

Saying,"the above is so obviously 6," does not merely make you wrong, it makes you a complete idiot.

The right loves boiling complex issues down to bumper stickers. It is an effective tactic, but it is not exactly honest.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Sad, another failed post

Maybe I should post in Spanish for you

[WRESTLINGFAN]

My position is not that his opinion isn't valid merely because he isn't a scholar. (I know how intellect is such a hated commodity in the right wing.) But, that stating something is so clearly obvious, when scholars are still debating it makes you look foolish.


a_n= {1/2a_(n-1) for a_(n-1)even
3a_(n-1)+1 for a_(n-1) odd

Saying,"the above is so obviously 6," does not merely make you wrong, it makes you a complete idiot.

The right loves boiling complex issues down to bumper stickers. It is an effective tactic, but it is not exactly honest.


Pi= 3.1416
D= M over V

Illegal means illegal. Facts and logic are like kryptonite to the left so they must rely on feelings and emotions and calling people racist

[Serpico1103]

Pi= 3.1416
D= M over V

Illegal means illegal. Facts and logic are like kryptonite to the left so they must rely on feelings and emotions and calling people racist

Where is the factual support for your interpretation of the 14thA?
Gave up?

I don't say you are wrong that maybe changing the immigration policy is necessary. That is one approach to an obvious problem. However, I disagree with your repeating the newest right wing talking point of "original intent."

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Where is the factual support for your interpretation of the 14thA?
Gave up?

I don't say you are wrong that maybe changing the immigration policy is necessary. That is one approach to an obvious problem. However, I disagree with your repeating the newest right wing talking point of "original intent."

Where is a ruling saying that someone born to an illegal is an automatic citizen?

[Willmore]

Say it with me now: IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT THE BASES ARE NEAR THE BORDER!

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US

[Serpico1103]

Pi= 3.1416
D= M over V

Illegal means illegal. Facts and logic are like kryptonite to the left so they must rely on feelings and emotions and calling people racist

Oh, so the 14thA says "illegals can't give birth to citizens." I missed that part.
Fuck. Simple answers are easy, not right.

[Willmore]

Pi= 3.1416
D= M over V

Illegal means illegal. Facts and logic are like kryptonite to the left so they must rely on feelings and emotions and calling people racist

You're right. Illegal is illegal.

New law: all children born to felons should be put in prison.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You're right. Illegal is illegal.

New law: all children born to felons should be put in prison.

Anyone who breaks into your house you are required to babysit them and their children

[Serpico1103]

Where is a ruling saying that someone born to an illegal is an automatic citizen?

I cited my reasoning. Supreme Court cases and drafters of the amendment.
There need not be a case on point for me to be correct.
I am not even asking for you to be right, merely support yourself with facts.
Other than, "illegal is illegal." Using that logic, illegals are not subject to our court's jurisdiction so they can't be deported. That takes a court proceeding which the court's according to you can not administer.

Please support your position.

[Willmore]

Anyone who breaks into your house you are required to babysit them and their children

Once the person who breaks in is arrested, the kids don't get thrown out in the street, they are put in foster care, the government paid-for kind.

[foodcourtdruide]

Pi= 3.1416
D= M over V

Illegal means illegal. Facts and logic are like kryptonite to the left so they must rely on feelings and emotions and calling people racist

You literally just proved the point he was trying to make in his previous post. This is all extremely complex and highly debated in this country. Acting like people who disagree with you simply lack facts and logic is as narrow-minded as those people who disagree with you simply calling you racist.

[foodcourtdruide]

Once the person who breaks in is arrested, the kids don't get thrown out in the street, they are put in foster care, the government paid-for kind.

Yeah WF, that was a pretty terrible analogy.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Once the person who breaks in is arrested, the kids don't get thrown out in the street, they are put in foster care, the government paid-for kind.



The kids can go back with the parents if they are deported. If an illegal commits a crime then its on him/her they should have realized that breaking into the country would have its risks

[Serpico1103]

You fail if you think youre going to convince me that another Amnesty bill will solve the illegal immigration problem

Maybe I should post in Spanish for you

Pi= 3.1416
D= M over V

Illegal means illegal. Facts and logic are like kryptonite to the left so they must rely on feelings and emotions and calling people racist

Where is a ruling saying that someone born to an illegal is an automatic citizen?

Anyone who breaks into your house you are required to babysit them and their children

The kids can go back with the parents if they are deported. If an illegal commits a crime then its on him/her they should have realized that breaking into the country would have its risks

Substance?

[Willmore]

The kids can go back with the parents if they are deported. If an illegal commits a crime then its on him/her they should have realized that breaking into the country would have its risks

They can. It's their choice ... because they are what, everybody together now, US CITIZENS.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Substance?

Its all there!!!

So what is your solution for illegal immigration?

[Willmore]

Its all there!!!

So what is your solution for illegal immigration?

Annex Mexico.

[Serpico1103]

The Congressional Research Service (CRS) stated in a September 2005 report:
Although the primary aim was to secure citizenship for African-Americans, the debates on the citizenship provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment indicate that they were intended to extend U.S. citizenship to all persons born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction regardless of race, ethnicity or alienage of the parents.

Apparently, Lynch v. Clarke, an 1844 New York case, was the first case to
decide the issue of whether the U.S.-born child of an alien was a U.S. citizen. It
held that the U.S.-born child of an Irish resident of the United States who returned
to Ireland after the child’s birth and died without ever declaring even an intent to be naturalized was a U.S. citizen.

"[t]o hold that the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution excludes from citizenship the children, born in the United States, of citizens or subjects of other countries would be to deny citizenship to thousands of persons of English, Scotch, Irish, German, or other European parentage who have always been considered and treated as citizens of the United States."- SC in Wong Kim


I love facts.

[Serpico1103]

Its all there!!!

So what is your solution for illegal immigration?

Do you understand the difference between wanting to change the current laws and trying to reinterpret the laws to suit your need?

I think we need to strictly enforce immigration law against employers. By arresting immigrants we are merely creating a job opening for a new illegal to hop the border and fill. Every arrest creates a job for an illegal. We need to make employing illegals unprofitable.
That is the first simple step.
Then, we need to tackle the drug and gun issue that helps keep Mexico in its current state. We are not to blame for most of Mexico's troubles, but we must take responsibility for the part we are to blame for.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The Congressional Research Service (CRS) stated in a September 2005 report:
Although the primary aim was to secure citizenship for African-Americans, the debates on the citizenship provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment indicate that they were intended to extend U.S. citizenship to all persons born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction regardless of race, ethnicity or alienage of the parents.

Apparently, Lynch v. Clarke, an 1844 New York case, was the first case to
decide the issue of whether the U.S.-born child of an alien was a U.S. citizen. It
held that the U.S.-born child of an Irish resident of the United States who returned
to Ireland after the child’s birth and died without ever declaring even an intent to be naturalized was a U.S. citizen.

"[t]o hold that the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution excludes from citizenship the children, born in the United States, of citizens or subjects of other countries would be to deny citizenship to thousands of persons of English, Scotch, Irish, German, or other European parentage who have always been considered and treated as citizens of the United States."- SC in Wong Kim


I love facts.

In all those cases were they ILLEGAL?

The 14th ammendment was ratified post civil war. Youre stating a case in 1844 about 25 years before it was ratified

[Serpico1103]

In all those cases were they ILLEGAL?

The 14th ammendment was ratified post civil war. Youre stating a case in 1844 about 25 years before it was ratified

Again, I am citing cases that support my position. There is not a case on point. That does not mean I am right or wrong. It means you have to point to cases that support your position.

The case is cited to show how people back then thought of citizenship.
Our citizenship rights seem to be based on English common law, which recognized birthright citizenship (except for diplomats and enemies). There was not thought of illegal immigration, so the lack of mentioning them is not surprising. It is up to you to show that the intent to exclude them was present. I merely need to show that either they intended to include them, or they didn't give any thought to them.

I know you think "did they mention Illegals" is a winning argument. But, you have to trust me, that is not how this works. Consider it a case of first impression; no binding authority, no case on point. Make your persuasive argument, with facts, not talking points.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Do you understand the difference between wanting to change the current laws and trying to reinterpret the laws to suit your need?

I think we need to strictly enforce immigration law against employers. By arresting immigrants we are merely creating a job opening for a new illegal to hop the border and fill. Every arrest creates a job for an illegal. We need to make employing illegals unprofitable.
That is the first simple step.
Then, we need to tackle the drug and gun issue that helps keep Mexico in its current state. We are not to blame for most of Mexico's troubles, but we must take responsibility for the part we are to blame for.

Agreed on the employers part. Cut off the supply/demand factor. But arresting illegals and deporint them needs to be continued. If there is a mass deportation of illegals it would inhibit a lot of them from coming here because the risk isn't worth it.

In regards to healthcare and education, if an illegal doesnt have a limb hanging off they should not receive any medical treatment. Having a hangnail and going to the ER is the reason why hospitals are going bankrupt. As stated before, having a Jackpot/.Anchor baby costs at least 10K

For education States should not be required to educate them but the supreme court meddled in again on this back in 1982. I cant remember the name of the case. States are going broke because of this

[Serpico1103]

Agreed on the employers part. Cut off the supply/demand factor. But arresting illegals and deporint them needs to be continued. If there is a mass deportation of illegals it would inhibit a lot of them from coming here because the risk isn't worth it.

In regards to healthcare and education, if an illegal doesnt have a limb hanging off they should not receive any medical treatment.

For education States should not be required to educate them but the supreme court meddled in again on this back in 1982. I cant remember the name of the case.

Education and healthcare is done for the good of society. But, I won't argue those points with you.
Stop the employers you dramatically lessen the demand. Go after landlords and employers.

Of course, then I have to hear the "no one wants to do those jobs" argument.
Yeah, no one wants to be a carpenter, mason, roofer, landscaper, etc. More idiotic reasoning.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Education and healthcare is done for the good of society. But, I won't argue those points with you.
Stop the employers you dramatically lessen the demand. Go after landlords and employers.

Of course, then I have to hear the "no one wants to do those jobs" argument.
Yeah, no one wants to be a carpenter, mason, roofer, landscaper, etc. More idiotic reasoning.

A lot of people who had 20+ years in those industries have been priced out. A while back I had some renovations done to my condo. I could have hired someone hanging out in front of Home depot or on the side of the road and saved money, but the quality of work wouldnt have been as good. Also if the illegal worker damaged my property, there would be no way that I could have sued for property damage. I hired someone who was fully licensed and I paid more but I knew that the quality would be better and that he was here legally.

[Willmore]

A lot of people who had 20+ years in those industries have been priced out. A while back I had some renovations done to my condo. I could have hired someone hanging out in front of Home depot or on the side of the road and saved money, but the quality of work wouldnt have been as good. Also if the illegal worker damaged my property, there would be no way that I could have sued for property damage. I hired someone who was fully licensed and I paid more but I knew that the quality would be better and that he was here legally.

Welcome to capitalism.

I can buy a dirty dog and get diarrhea, or I can go to Le Bernardin and have the meal of my life.

[Barnaby Jones]

Agreed on the employers part. Cut off the supply/demand factor. But arresting illegals and deporint them needs to be continued. If there is a mass deportation of illegals it would inhibit a lot of them from coming here because the risk isn't worth it.

So close! We need lasting reform that drives down the incentives to be here illegally! As it was pointed out, massive reform to our drug legislation would go a huge way to accomplishing this! So would overhauling the immigration process so it's much quicker and more efficient! So would cracking down harder on the people ecxploiting illegals than the illegals themselves! Best of all is that those types of solutions are much, much cheaper and less wasteful than perpetual mass deportations and occupying the borders! Mass deportations would only be a factor in driving down illegal entry if the U.S. did it repeatedly, and it's not worth the waste of money and resources and personal liberties for such a back-asswards approach!

In regards to healthcare and education, if an illegal doesnt have a limb hanging off they should not receive any medical treatment. Having a hangnail and going to the ER is the reason why hospitals are going bankrupt. As stated before, having a Jackpot/.Anchor baby costs at least 10K

I'm sorry, but you're all over the place here! For one, you say that things like hangnails are why hospitals are going bankrupt, which is retarded! Secondly, you seem to be conceding that illegals should get serious medical care, which is downright humanly of you, but then you seem to be implying that they shouldn't be able to receiver care if they're having a child! And your repeated insistence of the terms "anchor babies" and "jackpot babies" to refer to ALL children born to illegals just again reinforces why everyone points out how you seem so prejudiced and xenophobic! What else is everyone supposed to think when you refuse to look at them as people on ANY level?

For education States should not be required to educate them but the supreme court meddled in again on this back in 1982. I cant remember the name of the case. States are going broke because of this

States aren't going broke because of public education give to children of illegals! That's absurd!

The bottom line is that you don't want these people here at all, legally or illegally. That's why you refuse to even consider any smart reform that would make gaining citizenship easier and more efficient! You're just looking for any excuse you can twist to "justify" them not being here at all!

[hanso]

The latest angle is if pot where legal. Then there would not be so many illegals. (Drug gang crimes).

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The latest angle is if pot where legal. Then there would not be so many illegals. (Drug gang crimes).

Going against many on the right but, Pot should be legalized

[Syd]

States aren't going broke because of public education give to children of illegals! That's absurd!

They pay into local schools through local taxes, but states are going broke. The problem might be the taxes in the state are too low to sustain the underclass, not that illegal aliens are mucking up our country.

[Barnaby Jones]

They pay into local schools through local taxes, but states are going broke. The problem might be the taxes in the state are too low to sustain the underclass, not that illegal aliens are mucking up our country.

Yup!

[Ogre]

They pay into local schools through local taxes, but states are going broke. The problem might be the taxes in the state are too low to sustain the underclass, not that illegal aliens are mucking up our country.

Actually the states are going broke because of the drain on social services and public programs which are dominated by Hispanics, many of whom are in fact here in violation of Federal Immigration Laws. The States are also going broke because of outrageous pension programs that the Unions protect at all costs. I think the President termed it "getting a haircut" as to the sacrifices we would have to make as sectors of the society. Nobody realized He would be the Barber and The Public sector would noy have to get in line.

Silly Liberals love doing great things (in their minds) with other peoples money.

The November Awakening is nigh.

[hanso]

Going against many on the right but, Pot should be legalized

Dare I say so, but yes I also go along with this notion. And I see more on this in todays paper. (Pot) A map of violent drug crimes covers most of Mexico.

[Barnaby Jones]

Actually the states are going broke because of the drain on social services and public programs which are dominated by Hispanics, many of whom are in fact here in violation of Federal Immigration Laws. The States are also going broke because of outrageous pension programs that the Unions protect at all costs. I think the President termed it "getting a haircut" as to the sacrifices we would have to make as sectors of the society. Nobody realized He would be the Barber and The Public sector would noy have to get in line.

Silly Liberals love doing great things (in their minds) with other peoples money.

The November Awakening is nigh.

Adorable! He thinks social services are dominated by Hispanics! That's freakin' hilarious! Shhhhh, nobody show him the truth!

[hanso]

As for no money in state and local budgets. This was known to come years in advance. GAO report stated so. From having 2 wars and tax cuts. (first time this had ever happened). Then the economy turned to shit. So subsidies had to be put in place.


But the pot story is the sexier angle me thinks.

[Syd]

Actually the states are going broke because of the drain on social services and public programs which are dominated by Hispanics, many of whom are in fact here in violation of Federal Immigration Laws. The States are also going broke because of outrageous pension programs that the Unions protect at all costs. I think the President termed it "getting a haircut" as to the sacrifices we would have to make as sectors of the society. Nobody realized He would be the Barber and The Public sector would noy have to get in line.

Silly Liberals love doing great things (in their minds) with other peoples money.

The November Awakening is nigh.

White people are the majority on medicare, welfare etc. There's also a lot of subhuman scum that is part of the white race that ranks little above an illegal alien. Why not get upset over the "people" in the Ozarks or in Appalachia? They're a pretty big drag on society and they're not exactly going to contribute anything, ever, to society. If you want social services cleaned up, start by picking the biggest target: the white race. Since this conversation is already tinged by racism, we might as well go after some of the more mongrel races while we're targeting the white race. Then we can be all really happy, really white and have lower taxes :thumbup:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

White people are the majority on medicare, welfare etc. There's also a lot of subhuman scum that is part of the white race that ranks little above an illegal alien. Why not get upset over the "people" in the Ozarks or in Appalachia? They're a pretty big drag on society and they're not exactly going to contribute anything, ever, to society. If you want social services cleaned up, start by picking the biggest target: the white race. Since this conversation is already tinged by racism, we might as well go after some of the more mongrel races while we're targeting the white race. Then we can be all really happy, really white and have lower taxes :thumbup:

We already have enough freeloaders in this country. Why import another 20 million ?

As far as welfare. Of course whites are the biggest recipients since they are the majority of people in the United States. However when broken down by percent of race, its minorities who have cornered the welfare market. 6% of whites are on welfare.


These entitlements need to be slashed and if someones here illegaly they should not receive one dime of taxpayer money, let them beg to the churches

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_race_percentage_for_welfare_recipients

[Ogre]

Adorable! He thinks social services are dominated by Hispanics! That's freakin' hilarious! Shhhhh, nobody show him the truth!

Mock and deflect...Next you will call me a racist.

[A.J.]

White people are the majority on medicare, welfare etc. There's also a lot of subhuman scum that is part of the white race that ranks little above an illegal alien. Why not get upset over the "people" in the Ozarks or in Appalachia? They're a pretty big drag on society and they're not exactly going to contribute anything, ever, to society.

I agree. Poor white trash should not be allowed to breed.

[badmonkey]

Drafter of clause, explaining his meaning: This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.- No mention of simple non-citizens, just ambassadors and diplomats.


The guy you quoted specifically mentions exclusion of foreigners and aliens. The legal definition of alien seems to be relevant.

alien
1) n. a person who is not a citizen of the country. 2) in the United States any person born in another country to parents who are not American and who has not become a naturalized citizen. There are resident aliens officially permitted to live in the country and illegal aliens who have sneaked into the country or stayed beyond the time allowed on a visa. 3) v. to convey title to property.

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=2382

Alien Law & Legal Definition

An alien is a person who is not a citizen of the country in which they live. A resident alien is a person who has been allowed to permanently reside in the country by immigration authorities but has not been granted citizenship. Illegal aliens are those who have sneaked into the country or stayed beyond the time allowed on a visa. Aliens have certain due process rights under the Fourteenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Alienage is a "suspect" classification in the context of equal protection legal analysis. The courts have held that alienage cannot be the basis for denying certain opportunities, such as education and civil service employment. However, aliens may be denied employment in position closely tied to the governmental functions of the state, such as teachers and police officers.
http://definitions.uslegal.com/a/alien/

[WRESTLINGFAN]

A study on illegal immigration shows Hispanic illegals and their welfare roles.


http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2006/05/Amnesty-and-Continued-Low-Skill-Immigration-Will-Substantially-Raise-Welfare-Costs-and-Poverty



"Some 80 percent of illegal immigrants come from Mexico and Latin America.[19] (See Chart 1) Historically, Hispanics in America have had very high levels of welfare use"


"Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, General Assistance, and Supplemental Security Income.[20] As the chart shows, Hispanics were almost three times more likely to receive welfare than non-Hispanic whites."

[Barnaby Jones]

Mock and deflect...Next you will call me a racist.

It was supremely mockable because it was completely wrong!

[Barnaby Jones]

A study on illegal immigration shows Hispanic illegals and their welfare roles.


http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2006/05/Amnesty-and-Continued-Low-Skill-Immigration-Will-Substantially-Raise-Welfare-Costs-and-Poverty



"Some 80 percent of illegal immigrants come from Mexico and Latin America.[19] (See Chart 1) Historically, Hispanics in America have had very high levels of welfare use"


"Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, General Assistance, and Supplemental Security Income.[20] As the chart shows, Hispanics were almost three times more likely to receive welfare than non-Hispanic whites."

What, poor people are more likely to be on welfare?!?! Crazy!!!

But still, we're just dancing around what you really want to say! You were very close when you said this:

We already have enough freeloaders in this country. Why import another 20 million ?

You're obviously full of shit when you say you'd have no problem with them being here legally when you say things like this! Just say you don't want them here period! Why deny it?

And man, "freeloaders?" You really have absolutely no idea how welfare works, do you? Of course not, because you use ridiculous terms like "entitlements" and "freeloaders" and "jackpot babies!"

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What, poor people are more likely to be on welfare?!?! Crazy!!!

But still, we're just dancing around what you really want to say! You were very close when you said this:



You're obviously full of shit when you say you'd have no problem with them being here legally when you say things like this! Just say you don't want them here period! Why deny it?

And man, "freeloaders?" You really have absolutely no idea how welfare works, do you? Of course not, because you use ridiculous terms like "entitlements" and "freeloaders" and "jackpot babies!"


Yes our own home grown freeloaders. Do you realize how many billions are wasted just on welfare and medicaid fraud each year?

A big reason why illegals flood the borders and come here is because of our bloated welfare state. They know that they can come here and mooch off the taxpayer, have kids and receive entitlements

[Barnaby Jones]

Yes our own home grown freeloaders. Do you realize how many billions are wasted just on welfare and medicaid fraud each year?

A big reason why illegals flood the borders and come here is because of our bloated welfare state. They know that they can come here and mooch off the taxpayer, have kids and receive entitlements

Your at least willfully ignorant of how welfare works! So, you apparently think welfare provides enough money for people to live off of and you think people can receive it indefinitely! Should we try this again later when you've had a chance to actually research the subject?

You're approach towards government assistance is ridiculous! You say you want to "slash entitlements," yet your rhetoric indicates you simply want it gone, period. You have zero sympathy or understanding of ANYONE on any kind of government assistance and simply view anyone who needs it as a parasite of some kind! Let's set aside illegals for a second and why don't you explain how you can further punish our own homegrown "freeloaders" with these "slashes!"

[foodcourtdruide]

Your at least willfully ignorant of how welfare works! So, you apparently think welfare provides enough money for people to live off of and you think people can receive it indefinitely! Should we try this again later when you've had a chance to actually research the subject?

You're approach towards government assistance is ridiculous! You say you want to "slash entitlements," yet your rhetoric indicates you simply want it gone, period. You have zero sympathy or understanding of ANYONE on any kind of government assistance and simply view anyone who needs it as a parasite of some kind! Let's set aside illegals for a second and why don't you explain how you can further punish our own homegrown "freeloaders" with these "slashes!"

My favorite part of all this is that he clearly is not concerned with paying taxes. He's proposed insanely expensive solutions to problems. He doesn't mind paying taxes or making the government bigger.

[Barnaby Jones]

It's impossible to take someone seriously when their focus on these issues is punishing the poor over actually working to fix or improve the system to hopefully help someone from being poor in the long run! I don't think you'll find anyone here who thinks the immigration or welfare systems right now don't need a ton of reform, but it's hard to take him seriously when mumbles something about going after the people that exploit illegals when every other post of his is essentially him screaming for mass deportation to be the main issue!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Your at least willfully ignorant of how welfare works! So, you apparently think welfare provides enough money for people to live off of and you think people can receive it indefinitely! Should we try this again later when you've had a chance to actually research the subject?

You're approach towards government assistance is ridiculous! You say you want to "slash entitlements," yet your rhetoric indicates you simply want it gone, period. You have zero sympathy or understanding of ANYONE on any kind of government assistance and simply view anyone who needs it as a parasite of some kind! Let's set aside illegals for a second and why don't you explain how you can further punish our own homegrown "freeloaders" with these "slashes!"

There are a lot of people on public assistance who have cell phones, plasma TVs cars etc. There is rampant abuse of our entitlement systems which costs taxpayers insane amounts of money.

Youre misinterperting my words in regards to entitlement spending. Again!!! we have enough US citizens abusing the system, crowding it with millions more makes it worse

Look what the massive welfare state has done to the UK and other European countries, they can not sustain it anymore

[WRESTLINGFAN]

My favorite part of all this is that he clearly is not concerned with paying taxes. He's proposed insanely expensive solutions to problems. He doesn't mind paying taxes or making the government bigger.

Who wants to make government bigger? I want gov't to be more efficient and do its job.

Reducing the defense budget, eliminating useless and wasteful bureaucracies would be more than enough to pay for immigration enforcement.

[StanUpshaw]

Who wants to make government bigger? I want gov't to be more efficient

Reducing the defense budget, eliminating useless and wasteful bureaucracies would be more than enough to pay for immigration enforcement.

You want to reward them with citizenship instead of punishing them for the numerous crimes they committed.

FCD makes a point. Enforcing laws the way you want them enforced costs money. Extra manpower and all of the benefits and pensions that go along with government employees.

[Barnaby Jones]

It's like trying to debate with some sort of anti-welfare cartoon!

"There are people on welfare with cell phones (as if cell phones are some insane expense these days; WF must think poor people don't or shouldn't have phones at all) and with big TV's, so we have to punish EVERYONE on welfare by slashing and burning it even more!"

I don't know why he doesn't just come out and flat out say he doesn't like poor people? He clearly thinks their problems are all of their own design since he's offered up no solution to address poverty in this country outside of slashing the already skimpy and finite government assistance each person can get! Maybe he expects all of them to be drafted into securing the borders?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It's impossible to take someone seriously when their focus on these issues is punishing the poor over actually working to fix or improve the system to hopefully help someone from being poor in the long run! I don't think you'll find anyone here who thinks the immigration or welfare systems right now don't need a ton of reform, but it's hard to take him seriously when mumbles something about going after the people that exploit illegals when every other post of his is essentially him screaming for mass deportation to be the main issue!

The main issue is enforcement. No one is saying to just round up anyone who looks brown. However if they commit a crime and its determined that they are here illegally, then throw the book at them.

[Barnaby Jones]

Who wants to make government bigger? I want gov't to be more efficient and do its job.

Reducing the defense budget, eliminating useless and wasteful bureaucracies would be more than enough to pay for immigration enforcement.

All you want to do is chop what you think is government bloat and just move it around so it's still excessive government waste! Ridiculous!

[foodcourtdruide]

FCD makes a point. Enforcing laws the way you want them enforced costs money. Extra manpower and all of the benefits and pensions that go along with government employees.

Exactly, cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

All you want to do is chop what you think is government bloat and just move it around so it's still excessive government waste! Ridiculous!

entitlements for illegal aliens is gov't bloat. So is the defense budget. Why must I keep repeating that they should be denied employment, housing and entitlements? If there is no opportunity here for them, many will self deport.

[Barnaby Jones]

The main issue is enforcement. No one is saying to just round up anyone who looks brown. However if they commit a crime and its determined that they are here illegally, then throw the book at them.

That's too broad! The reality is that deporting or imprisoning every single illegal that's caught is simply too expensive even if we wanted to. That's the reality of the situation! The vast majority, however, of illegals arrested on serious charges are imprisoned or deported, but actually cracking down on all illegals who are caught simply for being here illegally isn't realistic until we have serious reform of the immigration system, the drug laws and our prison systems. We need top down solutions instead of just packing on more government waste like you're suggesting! This is why some kind of amnesty coupled with streamlining the immigration process makes so much more sense as opposed to just further taxing and already breaking down system!

[Willmore]

Who wants to make government bigger? I want gov't to be more efficient and do its job.

Reducing the defense budget, eliminating useless and wasteful bureaucracies would be more than enough to pay for immigration enforcement.

Move to Somalia. No taxes there.

[Barnaby Jones]

entitlements for illegal aliens is gov't bloat. So is the defense budget. Why must I keep repeating that they should be denied employment, housing and entitlements? If there is no opportunity here for them, many will self deport.

Do you even think before you post this?!? If people are denied employment, how the fuck are they going to "self deport?!??" Where's this magical money coming from? Do you actually WANT to increase crime? Because that's what happens when you address poverty by actively seeking to make poor people even more poor!

[A.J.]

Move to Somalia. No taxes there.

YET.

Wait until Al-Shabab implements Shariah Law. Then there will be mandatory 10% tithing.

[Barnaby Jones]

YET.

Wait until Al-Shabab implements Shariah Law. Then there will be mandatory 10% tithing.

Can't wait for Shariah Law! Then things will finally get done!

[Willmore]

YET.

Wait until Al-Shabab implements Shariah Law. Then there will be mandatory 10% tithing.

Al-hamdu lillahi rabbil 'alamin.

[Dude!]

Can't wait for Shariah Law! Then things will finally get done!

well, you got one thing
right today



http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2010/07/30/1280527375-time_cover_0809.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Do you even think before you post this?!? If people are denied employment, how the fuck are they going to "self deport?!??" Where's this magical money coming from? Do you actually WANT to increase crime? Because that's what happens when you address poverty by actively seeking to make poor people even more poor!

Illegals are already self deporting due to the recession. Also they were leaving AZ in the wake of SB1070

http://www.examiner.com/immigration-reform-in-national/sb1070-has-resulted-mass-self-deportation-of-illegal-aliens-makes-critics-look-foolish

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Can't wait for Shariah Law! Then things will finally get done!

How completely idiotic. So you want to go back to the 7th century. Enjoy your booze and bacon while you can.

[A.J.]

Can't wait for Shariah Law! Then things will finally get done!

I WILL give the Saudis credit. When someone is found guilty of a capitol offense, they are sent post haste to "Chop-Chop Square" in Riyadh for beheading.

[Barnaby Jones]

How completely idiotic. So you want to go back to the 7th century. Enjoy your booze and bacon while you can.

Of course you thought that was serious! You post so many delusional and unrealistic points in here that it seems normal to you!

[Barnaby Jones]

well, you got one thing
right today



http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2010/07/30/1280527375-time_cover_0809.jpg

Awwwww, Dude! can't tell the difference between Wahabbism and Shariah!

[Barnaby Jones]

Illegals are already self deporting due to the recession. Also they were leaving AZ in the wake of SB1070

http://www.examiner.com/immigration-reform-in-national/sb1070-has-resulted-mass-self-deportation-of-illegal-aliens-makes-critics-look-foolish

You can't be serious with this! Think about this for two seconds: if you cut off all income from people they're not all going to be able to "self-deport." Your draconian suggestions are totally unrealistic since it assumes people can make this moves without money, that they won't just move to another state if they do have any money left and that they'd all be making the equivalent move from Arizona to Mexico! Your suggestion is completely unrealistic unless you expect the government to step in and facilitate said deportation, and whoops, there's all of that excessive government spending again!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Of course you thought that was serious! You post so many delusional and unrealistic points in here that it seems normal to you!

Whats delusional and unrealistic about enforcing the law and punishing all parties including the illegals ?

You demonize taxpayers who are subsidizing the illegals with all the foodstamps, welfare , healthcare, educationand housing vouchers while you venerate the illegals who snuck in and contribute very little to society

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You can't be serious with this! Think about this for two seconds: if you cut off all income from people they're not all going to be able to "self-deport." Your draconian suggestions are totally unrealistic since it assumes people can make this moves without money, that they won't just move to another state if they do have any money left and that they'd all be making the equivalent move from Arizona to Mexico! Your suggestion is completely unrealistic unless you expect the government to step in and facilitate said deportation, and whoops, there's all of that excessive government spending again!

You seem to think that I want no federal government or any taxation. I never said that there should be anarchy. The government should be spending tax dollars on what its supposed to be doing. Its atrocious that my taxes are being redistributed for an illegal to have another kid and subsidizing the entire family. I know its unrelated to this topic but farm subsidies to AgriBusiness is also theft.



The illegals knew in advance that there would be the chance of deportation and other risky factors.

[Dude!]

Awwwww, Dude! can't tell the difference between Wahabbism and Shariah!

don't you know that "Wahhabi"
is considered an insulting term
by moslems?

it's much worse than "negress"
to a black woman

[Barnaby Jones]

Whats delusional and unrealistic about enforcing the law and punishing all parties including the illegals ?

You demonize taxpayers who are subsidizing the illegals with all the foodstamps, welfare , healthcare, educationand housing vouchers while you venerate the illegals who snuck in and contribute very little to society

Please quote me where I "demonized taxpayers" and "venerated illegals!"

We're going to be here a while, folks!

[Barnaby Jones]

don't you know that "Wahhabi"
is considered an insulting term
by moslems?

it's much worse than "negress"
to a black woman

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about!

[A.J.]

don't you know that "Wahhabi"
is considered an insulting term
by moslems?

it's much worse than "negress"
to a black woman

They prefer to be called Muwahhidun ("Unitarians") or Salafi.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Please quote me where I "demonized taxpayers" and "venerated illegals!"

We're going to be here a while, folks!

I am in favor of eliminating entitlements to illegals and you go on a tirade that Im some evil person who hates poor Mexicans

Facto of the matter is that why should we be forced to babysit these people?

[Dude!]

They prefer to be called Muwahhidun ("Unitarians") or Salafi.

don't confuse B J
with facts

they are irrelevant to him

[Barnaby Jones]

I am in favor of eliminating entitlements to illegals and you go on a tirade that Im some evil person who hates poor Mexicans

Facto of the matter is that why should we be forced to babysit these people?

My point again and again is that you just don't like poor people, period! You also don't like Mexicans, but you've made it abundantly clear that you hold those in poverty with nothing but disdain!

[Dude!]

you know who doesn't
like mexicans?

the blacks

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100816/D9HKHJ480.html

[Barnaby Jones]

don't confuse B J
with facts

they are irrelevant to him

Your statement was ridiculous from the start because it equates Wahabbism with all Muslims! Non-Wahabbists don't like being tagged with Wahabbism because they're not Wahabbists, ah-doy!

[Barnaby Jones]

you know who doesn't
like mexicans?

the blacks

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100816/D9HKHJ480.html

These attacks are disgusting and indicative of how racism and xenophobia are fueling the debate over this issue! We don't need to further inflame the issue by painting illegals as being some kind of comic book villains that's going to doom the country! That can only lead us down a dangerous path!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

These attacks are disgusting and indicative of how racism and xenophobia are fueling the debate over this issue! We don't need to further inflame the issue by painting illegals as being some kind of comic book villains that's going to doom the country! That can only lead us down a dangerous path!

No one in their right mind is calling for this type of vigilantism. However there is nothing but silence from the likes of La Raza and other groups. But if it was a white guy who did this, it would have been non stop media coverage

[WRESTLINGFAN]

My point again and again is that you just don't like poor people, period! You also don't like Mexicans, but you've made it abundantly clear that you hold those in poverty with nothing but disdain!

I have resentment for poor people who continue to have children they can't afford and abusing our welfare system and taking no personal responsibility. Youre assuming that I think all poor people are evil when thats not the case

Now if they are illegal, I even have more disdain because they have no right to be in this country if they snuck in.

These illegals arent stupid, they know how the system works and they are experts in milking it for all its worth

[Barnaby Jones]

I have resentment for poor people who continue to have children they can't afford and abusing our welfare system and taking no personal responsibility. Youre assuming that I think all poor people are evil when thats not the case

Then why do you want to punish ALL poor people in America by slashing an already minimal and terrible government assistance structure? You use ridiculous stereotypes that are akin to ye olde "welfare queen" to justify these rants that are so shortsighted! Wouldn't reform make more sense than just hacking away money?

WF, how long do you think people can be on welfare? How much do you think they get?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Then why do you want to punish ALL poor people in America by slashing an already minimal and terrible government assistance structure? You use ridiculous stereotypes that are akin to ye olde "welfare queen" to justify these rants that are so shortsighted! Wouldn't reform make more sense than just hacking away money?

WF, how long do you think people can be on welfare? How much do you think they get?

Youre going all over the place btwn welfare for illegals and actual citizens. Isn't the cap 5 years for a person to be on welfare?

CA passed prop 187 with a majority of people including over 50% of hispanics denying illegals of any form of public assistance, unfortunately that was overturned b a federal judge. The reason why CA is in the red tens of billions isnt just the 3 million illegals living there, theres the arguement of prop 13 which had to do with property taxes, also theres a huge unfunded pension system. but illegal immigration is a huge factor.

I agree with you that there needs to be reform with the people at all ends committing fraud which includes people in the bureaucracies allowing this to get out of control.

What I am saying is that many of these programs encourage people to remain in their economic status. There has been a war on poverty since the 1960's. Trillions of dollars later and there has been no advancement.

[Barnaby Jones]

Youre going all over the place btwn welfare for illegals and actual citizens. Isn't the cap 5 years for a person to be on welfare?

There are varying "caps" to how long one can be on welfare, but yes, you're on the right track. The caps already drastically hinder just how much one can "abuse" the system! Couple that with how little is actually given out per person and we're talking garbage here! Plus you act like the money just vanishes instead of actually being spent!

What I am saying is that many of these programs encourage people to remain in their economic status. There has been a war on poverty since the 1960's. Trillions of dollars later and there has been no advancement.

This is a huge generalization! You're talking like government assistance has been the same or increased over that the time when the opposite is true and all we've seen are your much vaunted "slashings!" Making it even less effective and having less resources isn't the answer!

I'll put it this way: do you think most people on welfare don't need to be on it? Do you think most of them WANT to be on it?

Slashing government assistance isn't the answer! It's all we've tried since the Great Society and it clearly has not worked!

[Syd]

The reason why CA is in the red tens of billions isnt just the 3 million illegals living there, theres the arguement of prop 13 which had to do with property taxes, also theres a huge unfunded pension system. but illegal immigration is a huge factor..

It has to do with California being unable to raise taxes without an absurd majority so the weight of California's budget must be carried by sales taxes. They're fine when the economy is up, but the second spending stops the state is fucked. Illegal immigration is just a drop in the bucket. Even in some idyllic world with no browns in California, the place would still be an under-funded shithole.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It has to do with California being unable to raise taxes without an absurd majority so the weight of California's budget must be carried by sales taxes. They're fine when the economy is up, but the second spending stops the state is fucked. Illegal immigration is just a drop in the bucket. Even in some idyllic world with no browns in California, the place would still be an under-funded shithole.

There was a study going back to 2004 showing how illegals cost CA taxpayers over 10 billion dollars annually. Im sure that has increased since then.

Illegal aliens are actually better off than people think. Sure they might make the most $10 per hour which many don't pay income taxes on (yes they pay sales tax), but living with 20 other people in an apartment thats $800 / month thats only $40 per illegal.

[Syd]

If their life is so wonderful why don't you go off the grid like they do? There's nothing that they're doing that you're incapable of. Either they're better people than you are and have more strength of will or you're fabricating or repeating lies to demonize them.

[Syd]

Pop quiz, hot shot. What's 10 billion divided by 2 trillion?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If their life is so wonderful why don't you go off the grid like they do? There's nothing that they're doing that you're incapable of. Either they're better people than you are and have more strength of will or you're fabricating or repeating lies to demonize them.

Committing crimes like document fraud, tax evasion, identity theft, sure they are better people.

No one is saying that they are buying luxury cars and yacths, but at the same time they arent as poor as you think. Imagine getting a 900% pay raise


They are doing those jobs because they lack the intelligence to work in a medical lab, or drawing blueprints for a new building. Your typical illegal from Mexico has very minimal education Are you expecting the illegal loitering in front of Home depot to find a cure for cancer or the constantly pregnant illegal to manage someones stock portfolio?

Illegals drive down the wages of unskilled labor because business owners can get away with that by paying them under the table.

[Syd]

no, but I don't expect white people to do that either

the only thing I expect from a white person is arrogance and a gunt

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Pop quiz, hot shot. What's 10 billion divided by 2 trillion?

Im talking about 1 state in particular. The amount of money wasted on illegal aliens just in CA is alarming.

If youre talking about the entire country how about ending the war in Afghanistan and reducing the defense budget and eliminating bureaucracies like the Dept of Education

[WRESTLINGFAN]

no, but I don't expect white people to do that either

the only thing I expect from a white person is arrogance and a gunt

And them paying the majority of taxes

[WRESTLINGFAN]

More illegals are getting licenses in other states therefore proving my point that they will self deport from states with strict immigration laws

http://hosted2.ap.org/apdefault/f7ded15e4d4846268a17b79c1c4b7cb8/Article_2010-08-13-US-Immigrant-Licenses/id-8805ad4670374034846a8de01e2035eb

"I know that it's not OK for people who come here to cross the border, but there's people that come here that want to contribute ... that want to follow the rules," said Hernandez, 31, who has a 2-year-old daughter.

You want to talk about arrogance? this SOB is talking about following the rules, he slithered into this country. He even admitted that its breaking the law by coming here illegally and is contributing to what? Im sure he didnt pay a dime for delivery of his jackpot anchor baby

[Barnaby Jones]

What the fuck is wrong with you? Why do you act so baffled when people say they think you hate Mexicans and poor people when you post comments like the one above?

[Barnaby Jones]

And them paying the majority of taxes

So wouldn't you want something that makes more of them legal citizens and paying taxes (some type of amnesty and streamlining the immigration process)?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What the fuck is wrong with you? Why do you act so baffled when people say they think you hate Mexicans and poor people when you post comments like the one above?

What are you talking about? He admitted coming here illegally

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So wouldn't you want something that makes more of them legal citizens and paying taxes (some type of amnesty and streamlining the immigration process)?

Amnesty was tried in 86 and is a huge failure. Hence the mess we have today.

If they were given Amnesty even though they make minimum wage they wont pay income taxes because of that.

[Barnaby Jones]

What are you talking about? He admitted coming here illegally

So what? Is it impossible for you to discuss the situation without throwing in crap like that he "slithered" here or dismissing his child as an "anchor baby" and assuming that he hasn't paid for anything? How are you not grasping this? It's just sad to try as desperately as you do to demonize all illegals! Are you that uncertain of your position that you have to always resort to dehumanizing garbage that's the equivalent of old propaganda posters depicting the Japanese as monsters?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So what? Is it impossible for you to discuss the situation without throwing in crap like that he "slithered" here or dismissing his child as an "anchor baby" and assuming that he hasn't paid for anything? How are you not grasping this? It's just sad to try as desperately as you do to demonize all illegals! Are you that uncertain of your position that you have to always resort to dehumanizing garbage that's the equivalent of old propaganda posters depicting the Japanese as monsters?

Do you know the meaning of Anchor baby? Ill sum it up for you. They are the anchor which provides entitlements and at the age of 21 can sponsor their illegal parents to become citizens and allow chain migration of others.

Do you think that illegals are shelling out upwards of 10K per child?

What should I call the illegal then? An uninvited houseguest?

[Barnaby Jones]

Amnesty was tried in 86 and is a huge failure. Hence the mess we have today.

That doesn't mean that all amnesty plans are now out the window! You're being ridiculously shortsighted! Like I've said before, what a proposal that temporarily locked down the border, reformed and streamlined the immigration process and then involved some kind of amnesty? That way you get most of the illegals legal, you stem the flow of illegals for the time being and you set up a system going forward that offers much more incentive for people to come here legally instead of illegally! Unless...

If they were given Amnesty even though they make minimum wage they wont pay income taxes because of that.

Yes, good, you're almost there! So close to just flat out saying that you don't want poor people coming here like you want to! Why do you keep holding back? Just say you want the borders closed off to anyone coming here who you consider to be too poor! There's simply no dancing around that inevitable conclusion based on your rhetoric! Just be honest with yourself and us!

[Barnaby Jones]

Do you know the meaning of Anchor baby? Ill sum it up for you. They are the anchor which provides entitlements and at the age of 21 can sponsor their illegal parents to become citizens and allow chain migration of others.

What should I call the illegal then? An uninvited houseguest?

God Lord, you are ducking this every which way you can! It's obvious that you use the term "anchor baby" derisively:

"Anchor baby" is a term used by immigration reductionists in the United States to describe a child born in the U.S. to illegal aliens. It is generally used as a derogatory reference to the supposed role of the child, who as a U.S. citizen through the legal principle of jus soli, may facilitate immigration for relatives through family reunification.[1][2][3][4][5][3] Family reunification, or family-based immigration, in the USA is a lengthy process and limited to categories prescribed by provisions of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.[1] The term "anchor baby" is a misnomer to the extent that it implies that by having a baby in the US, temporary or illegal immigrants can "anchor" themselves in the US. In fact, a US citizen child cannot file for a US visa for its parents until the child is 21 years of age, and upon reaching that age the child must also be earning at least 125% of the US poverty threshold to be able to apply. Thus, temporary or illegal immigrants who have babies in the US have no means of remaining legally in the US; they must return home and wait until the child reaches age 21.

It's a loaded term that was made up by people like you. It's not some kind of legal or "official" term that you've picked up, so quit acting like it is! It reflects 110% exactly who you are!

And again, what's with the "slithering" crap? It just shows how you have to dehumanize every single illegal so you can turn them all into these dangerous villains!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

That doesn't mean that all amnesty plans are now out the window! You're being ridiculously shortsighted! Like I've said before, what a proposal that temporarily locked down the border, reformed and streamlined the immigration process and then involved some kind of amnesty? That way you get most of the illegals legal, you stem the flow of illegals for the time being and you set up a system going forward that offers much more incentive for people to come here legally instead of illegally! Unless...



Yes, good, you're almost there! So close to just flat out saying that you don't want poor people coming here like you want to! Why do you keep holding back? Just say you want the borders closed off to anyone coming here who you consider to be too poor! There's simply no dancing around that inevitable conclusion based on your rhetoric! Just be honest with yourself and us!



Again, amnesty will encourage more illegal immigration. I do not want more people coming here dependant on the taxpayer.


Why must the illegals get a free pass when every other wave of immigrants came here legally and had to be cleared of diseases and not be a burden to society.



This country already allows over 1 million people here legally. I do not want to hear that we don't want people coming here and that we are not a welcoming society.

How does allowing uneducated, illiterate people coming here make society better? They become dependant of the government and of the taxpayer and yes we are babysitting these people and their families.

If you think our laws are too harsh why not take a look at Mexicos immigration laws.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

God Lord, you are ducking this every which way you can! It's obvious that you use the term "anchor baby" derisively:



It's a loaded term that was made up by people like you. It's not some kind of legal or "official" term that you've picked up, so quit acting like it is! It reflects 110% exactly who you are!

And again, what's with the "slithering" crap? It just shows how you have to dehumanize every single illegal so you can turn them all into these dangerous villains!

You would take offense if someone said a Bank robber slithered into a Chase branch during nighttime hours and stole millions of dollars.

The illegal knows that once a child is born they can receive money from the taxpayer. Do you think they are stupid? They come here to work and in many cases to steal.

[Barnaby Jones]

The illegal knows that once a child is born they can receive money from the taxpayer. Do you think they are stupid? They come here to work and in many cases to steal.

I don't know why I bother! You're like a toy with a string on your back when it comes to this! Wake me up when you stop parroting the same unrealistic junk!

[CurseoftheBambi]

ya know...what is the problem in stamford ct that makes you hate illegals so much...i thought stamford was the bastian of middle classhood. White people and gated communities whose kids smoke pot and do harder drugs, but their parents are billsfully unaware...and because it only happens to those inner city kids who have welfare moms.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I don't know why I bother! You're like a toy with a string on your back when it comes to this! Wake me up when you stop parroting the same unrealistic junk!

Oh yes, the illegal parents are really paying for all those kids being born.

[Syd]

And them paying the majority of taxes

some whites, not all of them. So long as there is some Saxon in them they're paying taxes. The other rabble are just leeches.

[Barnaby Jones]

Again, amnesty will encourage more illegal immigration. I do not want more people coming here dependant on the taxpayer.

ARE YOU BLIND?!?! I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT JUST AMNESTY FOR AMNESTY'S SAKE!!!

Why must the illegals get a free pass when every other wave of immigrants came here legally and had to be cleared of diseases and not be a burden to society.

Nobody's getting free pass, legally or illegally! Any amnesty would ideally come with strings attached! You couple that with a new, streamlined and better funded and organized immigration process and you take a huge step to turning people away from coming here illegally! It's the best option to do this both in terms of getting people here legally, getting illegals to become legal and saving us money so we're not wasting it always playing catch up and more people are beholden to public assistance and options since they're being exploited for being illegal!

This country already allows over 1 million people here legally. I do not want to hear that we don't want people coming here and that we are not a welcoming society.

How does allowing uneducated, illiterate people coming here make society better? They become dependant of the government and of the taxpayer and yes we are babysitting these people and their families.

Why won't you admit that you want poor people denied legal access to this country?

If you think our laws are too harsh why not take a look at Mexicos immigration laws.

Irrelevant! Don't play that bullshit!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

ya know...what is the problem in stamford ct that makes you hate illegals so much...i thought stamford was the bastian of middle classhood. White people and gated communities whose kids smoke pot and do harder drugs, but their parents are billsfully unaware...and because it only happens to those inner city kids who have welfare moms.

Theres a part of Stamford near the I 95 ramp where hundreds of illegals block traffic every day. The city put porta potties underneath the overpass for them and spent taxpayer money for a gathering sight for them. What do they do? urinate in public, public drunkenness, fighting etc. That area just like many areas in Suburban NYC filled with illegals looks like a central American slum with overcorwded houses, garbage everywhere, its disgusting

[WRESTLINGFAN]

ARE YOU BLIND?!?! I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT JUST AMNESTY FOR AMNESTY'S SAKE!!!



Nobody's getting free pass, legally or illegally! Any amnesty would ideally come with strings attached! You couple that with a new, streamlined and better funded and organized immigration process and you take a huge step to turning people away from coming here illegally! It's the best option to do this both in terms of getting people here legally, getting illegals to become legal and saving us money so we're not wasting it always playing catch up and more people are beholden to public assistance and options since they're being exploited for being illegal!



Why won't you admit that you want poor people denied legal access to this country?



Irrelevant! Don't play that bullshit!


A path to citizenship is Amnesty, no matter how much you want to spin it, you are rewarding illegal behavior and crime.

I don't want more people dependent on the taxpayer. can't be clearer thant hat.

Mexicos laws and how they handle illegals is relevant. Im sure you were clapping when that SOB was lecturing this country while he send his unwanted here

[Barnaby Jones]

A path to citizenship is Amnesty, no matter how much you want to spin it, you are rewarding illegal behavior and crime.

It's not rewarding shit! They're still mostly poor and having to work their asses off! Stop propagating this myth of the freeloading illegal, living some kind of great life on our dime! If your beef is with them here illegally, presumably you'd be open to SOME kind of idea that made a huge effort to making those people legal citizens so that they're paying more into the system! But yet again, we come back to the obvious point that you just don't want them here legally or illegally!

I don't want more people dependent on the taxpayer. can't be clearer thant hat.

You just hate poor people and government assistance of any kind! You clearly think poor people want to remain on government assistance, and that they're somehow able to live a comfortable life receiving it! Your approach to this is delusional and class warfare and bias at their worst!

Mexicos laws and how they handle illegals is relevant. Im sure you were clapping when that SOB was lecturing this country while he send his unwanted here

More diversion? The point is our immigration process. Mexico's is irrelevant! Quit spinning! You do that every time someone brings up points you refuse to answer!

[CurseoftheBambi]

Theres a part of Stamford near the I 95 ramp where hundreds of illegals block traffic every day. The city put porta potties underneath the overpass for them and spent taxpayer money for a gathering sight for them. What do they do? urinate in public, public drunkenness, fighting etc. That area just like many areas in Suburban NYC filled with illegals looks like a central American slum with overcorwded houses, garbage everywhere, its disgusting

another time in many places in the usa im sure people would have said this about the irish.

[Crispy123]

another time in many places in the usa im sure people would have said this about the irish.

Seriously, the only thing worse than the irish are those lazy Indians. Sitting on their reservations taking government handouts, gambling and boozin it up all day.

[Syd]

another time in many places in the usa im sure people would have said this about the irish.

the irish, the italians, the scots, the jews/eastern euros

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Psst!!!


All of those groups came, legally you still don't get that? Do you?

[Crispy123]

Psst!!!


All of those groups came, legally you still don't get that? Do you?

Ill let Pocahontas and Sitting Bull know...

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Ill let Pocahontas and Sitting Bull know...

Pick a country in Europe where you want to get deported to

[hanso]

Oh yes, the illegal parents are really paying for all those kids being born.

Well the "anchor babies" do not have citizen rights until the age of 21.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It's not rewarding shit! They're still mostly poor and having to work their asses off! Stop propagating this myth of the freeloading illegal, living some kind of great life on our dime! If your beef is with them here illegally, presumably you'd be open to SOME kind of idea that made a huge effort to making those people legal citizens so that they're paying more into the system! But yet again, we come back to the obvious point that you just don't want them here legally or illegally!



You just hate poor people and government assistance of any kind! You clearly think poor people want to remain on government assistance, and that they're somehow able to live a comfortable life receiving it! Your approach to this is delusional and class warfare and bias at their worst!



More diversion? The point is our immigration process. Mexico's is irrelevant! Quit spinning! You do that every time someone brings up points you refuse to answer!

It is rewarding them. Would you reward a bank robber who was caught with 100k by letting him keep 20k? Sneak into a Dodgers game and get caught w/o a ticket in the 3rd base box seats, do you think they will cut you a deal and you will be able to sit in the nosebleeds? The issue is illegal vs legal!!!

I want people to pick themselves up and get off the public dole. There are a lot of people who feel comfortable living that way so they choose to stay in that economic condition

Mexico is relevant because their citizens and leadership turn a blind eye to their countrys immigration laws. How dare these people barge in, demand freebies and citizenship when millions have done it legally

[booster11373]

It is rewarding them. Would you reward a bank robber who was caught with 100k by letting him keep 20k? Sneak into a Dodgers game and get caught w/o a ticket in the 3rd base box seats, do you think they will cut you a deal and you will be able to sit in the nosebleeds? The issue is illegal vs legal!!!

I want people to pick themselves up and get off the public dole. There are a lot of people who feel comfortable living that way so they choose to stay in that economic condition

Mexico is relevant because their citizens and leadership turn a blind eye to their countrys immigration laws. How dare these people barge in, demand freebies and citizenship when millions have done it legally

You fail at information

You fail at persuasion

You fail at analogies

[Barnaby Jones]

Psst!!!


All of those groups came, legally you still don't get that? Do you?

Pssssssssssssssst! You realize how easy it was to actually navigate the immigration process when the bulk of the Irish came here, right? If it was such a brief, perfunctory process today you'd hardly see any illegals!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You fail at information

You fail at persuasion

You fail at analogies

You fail at understanding the difference of illegal vs legal!!!

[Ritalin]

I was thinking about this idiotic thread the other day, and let me float this out there. I'm not thinking I'm the first person realize this, but I haven't seen it around:

The biggest incentive for illegal immigration is a job. Why don't we severely penalize any business financially that employs someone who's here illegally? As in, the restaurant will probably shut down if the dishwasher is illegal.

Even if the "anchor" baby is sashaying down the well kept public school corridors, someone in the family has to make some sort of living to pay rent and put food on the table.

No money for rent, no money for food, no more problems.

Let the free market sort it out.

(now, I'm not stupid. You won't hear any politician suggest any such thing. Much more efficient to pull cars over at random. That'll fix it)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I was thinking about this idiotic thread the other day, and let me float this out there. I'm not thinking I'm the first person realize this, but I haven't seen it around:

The biggest incentive for illegal immigration is a job. Why don't we severely penalize any business financially that employs someone who's here illegally? As in, the restaurant will probably shut down if the dishwasher is illegal.

Even if the "anchor" baby is sashaying down the well kept public school corridors, someone in the family has to make some sort of living to pay rent and put food on the table.

No money for rent, no money for food, no more problems.

Let the free market sort it out.

(now, I'm not stupid. You won't hear any politician suggest any such thing. Much more efficient to pull cars over at random. That'll fix it)

I have repeatedly said that cracking down on employers is part of the solution.

Also its been said a lot but both Dems and the GOP want them here.

Even I disagree with the Church about illegal immigration, they should be the ones taking care of them since part of their function is to assist the needy

[Ritalin]

I have repeatedly said that cracking down on employers is part of the solution.

Also its been said a lot but both Dems and the GOP want them here.

Even I disagree with the Church about illegal immigration, they should be the ones taking care of them since part of their function is to assist the needy

No, not crack down.

If you have someone illegal working for you: $1M fine.

[Barnaby Jones]

No, not crack down.

If you have someone illegal working for you: $1M fine.

Damn right! The main problem are the business and property owners exploiting these illegals!

[CurseoftheBambi]

http://js-kit.com/blob/A5taTjhfwKpbAxTqrsaFP1.jpg

[foodcourtdruide]

http://js-kit.com/blob/A5taTjhfwKpbAxTqrsaFP1.jpg

All the term "judcial activism" means to me is: "I listen to conservative talk radio". It holds no weight in reality.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Speaking of cartoons


http://townhall.com/cartoons/cartoonist/GaryMcCoy/2010/05/2

[Willmore]

Amnesty was tried in 86 and is a huge failure. Hence the mess we have today.

If they were given Amnesty even though they make minimum wage they wont pay income taxes because of that.

You know that thing called FICA and Federal W/H that keeps taking a chunk of your paycheck, what do you think that is, office candy jar collection? If a person is working and getting a legal paycheck, he's paying a nice chunk of change to the government, regardless of his end-of-year income tax. Now, imagine for a second that we have about 15 million illegals working minimum wage - $7.25, 40 hours a week, 50 weeks of the year. $14,500 gross income. Deduct about 10-15% for taxes - $1,450 per person per year. That's 21.75 billion dollars of extra revenue minimum, and it rises dramatically when you factor in the fact that the chances of none of them earning more than minimum wage, or starting businesses is nil.

Not to mention the fact that being a legal immigrant, there is less incentive to send money back to Mexico, they can settle down, bring the family over and invest in the local economy, as opposed to Mexico's.

Fundamentally, it's a matter of White America being scared of the border states becoming majority Hispanic. It's an irrational fear, because who give a fuck. I don't care if my friends are Bob, Mike and Jim or Jorge, Jesus and Roberto.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You know that thing called FICA and Federal W/H that keeps taking a chunk of your paycheck, what do you think that is, office candy jar collection? If a person is working and getting a legal paycheck, he's paying a nice chunk of change to the government, regardless of his end-of-year income tax. Now, imagine for a second that we have about 15 million illegals working minimum wage - $7.25, 40 hours a week, 50 weeks of the year. $14,500 gross income. Deduct about 10-15% for taxes - $1,450 per person per year. That's 21.75 billion dollars of extra revenue minimum, and it rises dramatically when you factor in the fact that the chances of none of them earning more than minimum wage, or starting businesses is nil.

Not to mention the fact that being a legal immigrant, there is less incentive to send money back to Mexico, they can settle down, bring the family over and invest in the local economy, as opposed to Mexico's.

Fundamentally, it's a matter of White America being scared of the border states becoming majority Hispanic. It's an irrational fear, because who give a fuck. I don't care if my friends are Bob, Mike and Jim or Jorge, Jesus and Roberto.


The very little contributions illegals make are minuscule to the amount of social services that they would still consume. That is a net loss. Bringing the family over and have the population to explode even more? The 86 amnesty mess caused chain migration. They would still send money back to their home country

Its a matter of rewarding 1 group of people for breaking the law when millions more immigrated the legal way. The illegals should not get a free pass

Heres a breakdown of why Simpson Mazzoli was a failure

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/1008amnesty-intro.html

[Willmore]

The very little contributions illegals make are minuscule to the amount of social services that they would still consume. That is a net loss. Bringing the family over and have the population to explode even more? The 86 amnesty mess caused chain migration. They would still send money back to their home country

Its a matter of rewarding 1 group of people for breaking the law when millions more immigrated the legal way. The illegals should not get a free pass

I'm a legal immigrant and I don't give a fuck how one gets here. Morally, I think it's silly to create artificial barriers at the border. Just because a person won a lottery and was born on US soil does not make him any better than anyone else. If a person has the desire and perseverance to come to the States and work his ass off, that's a person our country needs. If that person comes here and becomes a criminal, he's a criminal and goes to jail (that sounded like Basil Marceaux).

[Barnaby Jones]

Debating with WF like this is like dealing with a brick wall! He can't wrap his around the amnesty idea because he thinks amnesty can only be enacted as it was 25 years ago. It doesn't matter how many different ways you try to explain how there are different approaches, all he'll do is say that the 1986 one didn't work and that's it.

He also has yet to ever prove that illegals "cost" more than they "make" for the country! Don't hold your breath for that, because all we'll get are links to sites that claim to break down the costs but completely ignore what is "made!"

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Debating with WF like this is like dealing with a brick wall! He can't wrap his around the amnesty idea because he thinks amnesty can only be enacted as it was 25 years ago. It doesn't matter how many different ways you try to explain how there are different approaches, all he'll do is say that the 1986 one didn't work and that's it.

He also has yet to ever prove that illegals "cost" more than they "make" for the country! Don't hold your breath for that, because all we'll get are links to sites that claim to break down the costs but completely ignore what is "made!"

So doing the same thing and expect a different result? Good luck with that.

I provided the link to the FAIR website which showed illegals being a net drain on society costing over 100 billion dollars and it included the very little they contribute. Go back and read it again

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I'm a legal immigrant and I don't give a fuck how one gets here. Morally, I think it's silly to create artificial barriers at the border. Just because a person won a lottery and was born on US soil does not make him any better than anyone else. If a person has the desire and perseverance to come to the States and work his ass off, that's a person our country needs. If that person comes here and becomes a criminal, he's a criminal and goes to jail (that sounded like Basil Marceaux).

So you believe there should be no barriers to entry? Does this allow you to go into your neighbors house and take his 65 inch LCD tv because its better than what you might have? Why not take the keys and take his car out for a spin. Why not throw a huge party in his backyard while youre at it.

You feel it is your right to rob that bank because there are millions of dollars in cash, gold bars etc and after all you have that desire to get those riches.

[epo]

So you believe there should be no barriers to entry? Does this allow you to go into your neighbors house and take his 65 inch LCD tv because its better than what you might have? Why not take the keys and take his car out for a spin. Why not throw a huge party in his backyard while youre at it.

You feel it is your right to rob that bank because there are millions of dollars in cash, gold bars etc and after all you have that desire to get those riches.

That's a stupid analogy.

You need to get better at that game.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

That's a stupid analogy.

You need to get better at that game.

Its an analogy but on a bigger scale!!!

He admits that he wants no borders so that has to include exclusion of private property rights and a nations sovereignity. If someone can break in then he gets to steal and keep everything

[weekapaugjz]

Its an analogy but on a bigger scale!!!

He admits that he wants no borders so that has to include exclusion of private property rights and a nations sovereignity. If someone can break in then he gets to steal and keep everything

That is horrible logic

[Barnaby Jones]

So doing the same thing and expect a different result? Good luck with that.

Who said do the same thing? Every time I've brought up amnesty it's with the idea of doing it after we've drastically overhauled the immigration process! The problem with '86 but little changed in regards to the immigration procedures! What's the point of declaring amnesty and then essentially doing nothing to alleviate the main reason why people opt to come here illegally in the first place? How are you not grasping the difference?

I provided the link to the FAIR website which showed illegals being a net drain on society costing over 100 billion dollars and it included the very little they contribute. Go back and read it again

I can't believe you're going to point to FAIR as an accurate source! The link had cherry picked the ways that illegals contribute economically to the country so that it would appear the cost far outweighs the gain! Why would you possibly think that citing a group like FAIR would give your position any legitimacy????!?! Now let me use my crystal ball and predict that WF will respond with something like "oh yeah? You'd just support a hate group like La Raza and use their info" even though nobody has done anything of the sort!

[Barnaby Jones]

Its an analogy but on a bigger scale!!!

He admits that he wants no borders so that has to include exclusion of private property rights and a nations sovereignity. If someone can break in then he gets to steal and keep everything

This conclusion is insane!

[Syd]

That is horrible logic

That's wrong with the logic? I went down to Lowes today and picked up my American nationality today. I don't want anyone coming by and stealing it because I could afford my nationality and someone else had to settle with buying some Central American nationality.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

That's wrong with the logic? I went down to Lowes today and picked up my American nationality today. I don't want anyone coming by and stealing it because I could afford my nationality and someone else had to settle with buying some Central American nationality.


Cause they are all at Home Depot

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This conclusion is insane!

Its the same analogy!!!! The conclusion is that there should be no borders anytime or anywhere

[weekapaugjz]

That's wrong with the logic? I went down to Lowes today and picked up my American nationality today. I don't want anyone coming by and stealing it because I could afford my nationality and someone else had to settle with buying some Central American nationality.

What the fuck does this even mean?

[Willmore]

Its an analogy but on a bigger scale!!!

He admits that he wants no borders so that has to include exclusion of private property rights and a nations sovereignity. If someone can break in then he gets to steal and keep everything

National sovereignty is a 20th century concept exclusively. In the 19th century it was irrelevant, and in the 21st century it, too, will be irrelevant with the rapid and irreversible globalization. We live in a one-country world, whether you like it or not, and arbitrary delineations are silly.

[Willmore]

Its the same analogy!!!! The conclusion is that there should be no borders anytime or anywhere

Why should there be?

Really, explain to me the reason for a border. Outside of collecting property taxes on everything inside a country's borders and being able to put soldiers within your borders and not have someone else act all uppity about it, what is the reason to have a border?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

National sovereignty is a 20th century concept exclusively. In the 19th century it was irrelevant, and in the 21st century it, too, will be irrelevant with the rapid and irreversible globalization. We live in a one-country world, whether you like it or not, and arbitrary delineations are silly.

Post your address and everyone on this board will be at your house for a huge party. You foot the bill !!!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Why should there be?

Really, explain to me the reason for a border. Outside of collecting property taxes on everything inside a country's borders and being able to put soldiers within your borders and not have someone else act all uppity about it, what is the reason to have a border?

Tell me where in our constitution does it say that we are oblijed to a 1 world government? Im going thru article I, II, II and it only says that we have a legislative, executive and judicial branch

A border sets a countrys boundaries.

[Willmore]

Tell me where in our constitution does it say that we are oblijed to a 1 world government? Im going thru article I, II, II and it only says that we have a legislative, executive and judicial branch

A border sets a countrys boundaries.

We are not obliged, but we are living in it.

As for the constitution, I have a lot of reservations about using an 18th century rule set to govern a country in the 21st century that bears no resemblance to the one from the 1780s.

A border sets a country's boundaries is a dictionary definition. You haven't said why it is required or what purpose it serves.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

We are not obliged, but we are living in it.

As for the constitution, I have a lot of reservations about using an 18th century rule set to govern a country in the 21st century that bears no resemblance to the one from the 1780s.

A border sets a country's boundaries is a dictionary definition. You haven't said why it is required or what purpose it serves.

Well in that 18th century document they provided a way to amend it. A borders purpose is that it defines the countrys boundaries. It could be the same for cities, counties states etc.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Who said do the same thing? Every time I've brought up amnesty it's with the idea of doing it after we've drastically overhauled the immigration process! The problem with '86 but little changed in regards to the immigration procedures! What's the point of declaring amnesty and then essentially doing nothing to alleviate the main reason why people opt to come here illegally in the first place? How are you not grasping the difference?



I can't believe you're going to point to FAIR as an accurate source! The link had cherry picked the ways that illegals contribute economically to the country so that it would appear the cost far outweighs the gain! Why would you possibly think that citing a group like FAIR would give your position any legitimacy????!?! Now let me use my crystal ball and predict that WF will respond with something like "oh yeah? You'd just support a hate group like La Raza and use their info" even though nobody has done anything of the sort!

Legalizing 20 million people wouldnt put this country into red ink even more !!! Once legalized they will be entitled to the Earned Income Tax credit, Medicaid, and Hardship Subisidies under the new healthcare reform bill. Even if they were to pay FICA the amount they contibute would be miniscule to the amount of tax dollars they consume.

There would be tens of trillions of more dollars added to the unfunded liabilities because Amnesty would allow chain migration of their relatives.

[Syd]

I agree, if we allow amnesty they'll keep coming. Look at what happened to Ireland. Totally abandoned now. We can't allow the same to happen to Mexico.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I agree, if we allow amnesty they'll keep coming. Look at what happened to Ireland. Totally abandoned now. We can't allow the same to happen to Mexico.

Have a great time living in a 3rd world cesspool when our population reaches 600 million with a majority being recipients of entitlements

[weekapaugjz]

Have a great time living in a 3rd world cesspool when our population reaches 600 million with a majority being recipients of entitlements

Your bigotry is through the roof with this post.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Your bigotry is through the roof with this post.

The UK France and other W. European countries with uncontrolled immigration arent giant bloated welfare states? Give the self righteousness a fucking break already

Take a look for yourself in this presentation


<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1pgz6ZCqhtg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1pgz6ZCqhtg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Syd]

Have a great time living in a 3rd world cesspool when our population reaches 600 million with a majority being recipients of entitlements

There's like 150 million people in central America, where are the other 100 million coming from?

Also what happens if Carlos Slim gets here? Will you worship him for being the richest man in the world?

[weekapaugjz]

The UK France and other W. European countries with uncontrolled immigration arent giant bloated welfare states? Give the self righteousness a fucking break already

No self righteousness. But your assumption that it would create a cesspool implies all these immigrants are filthy and dirty. And not everyone who is an immigrant is looking for govt handouts.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

There's like 150 million people in central America, where are the other 100 million coming from?

Also what happens if Carlos Slim gets here? Will you worship him for being the richest man in the world?

With chain migration and the fact that they have multiple children, that number isnt far fetched.

Slim already is here

http://www.financialpost.com/world+richest+Manhattan+mansion/3363857/story.html

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No self righteousness. But your assumption that it would create a cesspool implies all these immigrants are filthy and dirty. And not everyone who is an immigrant is looking for govt handouts.

Many illegals are expecting a handout as they think they deserve citizenship and entitlements.


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Ever drive thru an illegal alien neighborhood. Port Chester, NY is close to where I live and it looks like a central american slum

[Willmore]

Well in that 18th century document they provided a way to amend it. A borders purpose is that it defines the countrys boundaries. It could be the same for cities, counties states etc.

Yeah, they provided for a way to amend it, yet the document has become sacrosanct.

Fundamentally, it's a document constructed by a few dozen very smart people from the American colonies. Let's say that they were the smartest people in America at the time. The colonies had a population of around 2-2.5 million at the time. I would much rather rely on a few dozen really smart people from a pool of 300,000,000 people, rather than 2,500,000.

Also, they were reliant on the philosophical thought and ideas of their time. So their guidance was based in large part on the early-to-mid 18th century thought. If the constitution were written in the 1880s, as opposed to the 1780s, it would be influenced by Marx & Mill instead of Locke & Rousseau.

And back to the borders. You once again gave a description of what a border is. I know what it is. What I want to know is why the border between Mexico and the US is different from the border of Kentucky and Tennessee. Other than to provide employment for the "You are now entering" sign makers, what purpose do borders serve?

In medieval history, borders were delineations of ownership by feudal lords. Separation of royal demesnes into counties (ruled and owned by a Count), duchies, earlships etc. etc.

In the modern world, why does one need borders? There is a border separating Palestine from Israel. The only reason it's there, is because Israel wants to control who goes in an out. The border has little basis in history, it's just a convenient excuse to say the good guys are on this side, the bad guys are on that side. Kurds live in an area called Kurdistan, it's a rough patch of land in Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Iran. They are a nation unto themselves, they don't have a border. Should they? They don't really keep anyone out, except maybe the Turkish military that has a habit of paying them a visit. The Papal States, there's a nice country. A dot at the heart of Rome. Do they need borders?

Borders are irrelevant to the general population. All they differentiation is the government you pay taxes to. They serve as no kind of deterrence of travel. In the middle of the Sonoran desert lies the border of US and Mexico. What difference is it if a person step over the border without an entry visa?

Why is there a need to band together into archaic societal constructs. We are Americans and we believe X. We are Canadians and we believe X. We are Chinese and we believe X.

The faster we abandon these useless labels, the quicker we can eliminate the main vices of humanity.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yeah, they provided for a way to amend it, yet the document has become sacrosanct.

Fundamentally, it's a document constructed by a few dozen very smart people from the American colonies. Let's say that they were the smartest people in America at the time. The colonies had a population of around 2-2.5 million at the time. I would much rather rely on a few dozen really smart people from a pool of 300,000,000 people, rather than 2,500,000.

Also, they were reliant on the philosophical thought and ideas of their time. So their guidance was based in large part on the early-to-mid 18th century thought. If the constitution were written in the 1880s, as opposed to the 1780s, it would be influenced by Marx & Mill instead of Locke & Rousseau.

And back to the borders. You once again gave a description of what a border is. I know what it is. What I want to know is why the border between Mexico and the US is different from the border of Kentucky and Tennessee. Other than to provide employment for the "You are now entering" sign makers, what purpose do borders serve?

In medieval history, borders were delineations of ownership by feudal lords. Separation of royal demesnes into counties (ruled and owned by a Count), duchies, earlships etc. etc.

In the modern world, why does one need borders? There is a border separating Palestine from Israel. The only reason it's there, is because Israel wants to control who goes in an out. The border has little basis in history, it's just a convenient excuse to say the good guys are on this side, the bad guys are on that side. Kurds live in an area called Kurdistan, it's a rough patch of land in Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Iran. They are a nation unto themselves, they don't have a border. Should they? They don't really keep anyone out, except maybe the Turkish military that has a habit of paying them a visit. The Papal States, there's a nice country. A dot at the heart of Rome. Do they need borders?

Borders are irrelevant to the general population. All they differentiation is the government you pay taxes to. They serve as no kind of deterrence of travel. In the middle of the Sonoran desert lies the border of US and Mexico. What difference is it if a person step over the border without an entry visa?

Why is there a need to band together into archaic societal constructs. We are Americans and we believe X. We are Canadians and we believe X. We are Chinese and we believe X.

The faster we abandon these useless labels, the quicker we can eliminate the main vices of humanity.

Fuck it. Lets just rip it up and start anew

Good luck gathering the masses for an article 5 convention.

[badmonkey]

Yeah, they provided for a way to amend it, yet the document has become sacrosanct.

Fundamentally, it's a document constructed by a few dozen very smart people from the American colonies. Let's say that they were the smartest people in America at the time. The colonies had a population of around 2-2.5 million at the time. I would much rather rely on a few dozen really smart people from a pool of 300,000,000 people, rather than 2,500,000.

Also, they were reliant on the philosophical thought and ideas of their time. So their guidance was based in large part on the early-to-mid 18th century thought. If the constitution were written in the 1880s, as opposed to the 1780s, it would be influenced by Marx & Mill instead of Locke & Rousseau.

And back to the borders. You once again gave a description of what a border is. I know what it is. What I want to know is why the border between Mexico and the US is different from the border of Kentucky and Tennessee. Other than to provide employment for the "You are now entering" sign makers, what purpose do borders serve?

In medieval history, borders were delineations of ownership by feudal lords. Separation of royal demesnes into counties (ruled and owned by a Count), duchies, earlships etc. etc.

In the modern world, why does one need borders? There is a border separating Palestine from Israel. The only reason it's there, is because Israel wants to control who goes in an out. The border has little basis in history, it's just a convenient excuse to say the good guys are on this side, the bad guys are on that side. Kurds live in an area called Kurdistan, it's a rough patch of land in Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Iran. They are a nation unto themselves, they don't have a border. Should they? They don't really keep anyone out, except maybe the Turkish military that has a habit of paying them a visit. The Papal States, there's a nice country. A dot at the heart of Rome. Do they need borders?

Borders are irrelevant to the general population. All they differentiation is the government you pay taxes to. They serve as no kind of deterrence of travel. In the middle of the Sonoran desert lies the border of US and Mexico. What difference is it if a person step over the border without an entry visa?

Why is there a need to band together into archaic societal constructs. We are Americans and we believe X. We are Canadians and we believe X. We are Chinese and we believe X.

The faster we abandon these useless labels, the quicker we can eliminate the main vices of humanity.

You said you're an immigrant. What borderless utopia did you abandon to come to this archaic shithole and why?

[Serpico1103]

You said you're an immigrant. What borderless utopia did you abandon to come to this archaic shithole and why?

They attacked us on 9/11 because of our borders. If we open our borders they have won. And the 9/11 families will complain, threatening to give back all their money.

[epo]

Its an analogy but on a bigger scale!!!

He admits that he wants no borders so that has to include exclusion of private property rights and a nations sovereignity. If someone can break in then he gets to steal and keep everything

You are terrible at this. Maybe you should hire a tutor to teach you logic. If you can't afford one I know an illegal or two who can school your dumb ass.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You are terrible at this. Maybe you should hire a tutor to teach you logic. If you can't afford one I know an illegal or two who can school your dumb ass.



Too bad common sense can not be taught to you!! Must be all that shit beer you drink

[Serpico1103]

You are terrible at this. Maybe you should hire a tutor to teach you logic. If you can't afford one I know an illegal or two who can school your dumb ass.

He thinks that he has earned his citizenship in the same way he earned his weekly paycheck.
Why should an illegal be given citizenship, when WF had to spend 9 months in his mother for it?

[hanso]

I was thinking about this idiotic thread the other day, and let me float this out there. I'm not thinking I'm the first person realize this, but I haven't seen it around:

The biggest incentive for illegal immigration is a job. Why don't we severely penalize any business financially that employs someone who's here illegally? As in, the restaurant will probably shut down if the dishwasher is illegal.

Even if the "anchor" baby is sashaying down the well kept public school corridors, someone in the family has to make some sort of living to pay rent and put food on the table.

No money for rent, no money for food, no more problems.

Let the free market sort it out.

(now, I'm not stupid. You won't hear any politician suggest any such thing. Much more efficient to pull cars over at random. That'll fix it)


I think this was put in a bill. And as always no votes from the right.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

He thinks that he has earned his citizenship in the same way he earned his weekly paycheck.
Why should an illegal be given citizenship, when WF had to spend 9 months in his mother for it?


Why should a bank robber keep the cash. The Gates children were lucky enough to be in Melindas womb for 9 months

[Serpico1103]

Why should a bank robber keep the cash. The Gates children were lucky enough to be in Melindas womb for 9 months

Still not seeing the difference?
Ever get any material that backs up your "original intent" theory? Or do your "libertarian" sites falter when it comes to facts?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Still not seeing the difference?
Ever get any material that backs up your "original intent" theory? Or do your "libertarian" sites falter when it comes to facts?

You'll never get the comparison.

[StanUpshaw]

Or do your "libertarian" sites falter when it comes to facts?

What is the implication here?

Libertarians strive for open borders ready access to the South's willing workers.

WF's stance on immigration has nothing at all to do with liberty.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What is the implication here?

Libertarians strive for open borders ready access to the South's willing workers.

WF's stance on immigration has nothing at all to do with liberty.

Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Ron Paul opposed open borders and a welfare state

[underdog]

Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Ron Paul opposed open borders and a welfare state

Ron Paul was a conservative right up until he couldn't win their nomination.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Ron Paul was a conservative right up until he couldn't win their nomination.

he still is. Hes more conservative than Mitt, Palin and Huckabee will ever be

[booster11373]

Ayn Rand was a nut-job who thought that smoking showed man's dominance over fire.

The fact that you probably have an highlighted copy of Atlas Shrugged makes a lot of sense.

[StanUpshaw]

Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Ron Paul opposed open borders and a welfare state

Clearly the combination of the two are incompatible, but the libertarian position on each is unambiguous.

[Serpico1103]

What is the implication here?

Libertarians strive for open borders ready access to the South's willing workers.

WF's stance on immigration has nothing at all to do with liberty.

He claims to be a Libertarian, when I have pointed out to him that one of the main platforms for Libertarians is open borders.
Again, facts and reason are unable to penetrate.

What does the Rand Center know? (http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=22119&news_iv_ctrl=2523)

[Willmore]

The labels of conservative, libertatian, liberal, etc. get thrown around far too liberally (see what I did there?).

Not all conservatives are made alike. There are fiscal conservatives who could give a fuck if you kill your unborn child, there are social conservatives who are rather happy to have a welfare state, there are liberals who believe in the 2nd amendment on principal.

These labels once had meanings that were very precise in what they described, now, much like the word "Communist" it morphed from the original meaning, to that which has been perpetuated in popular media and assigned to a gigantic swath of people.

Let's take Communism as an example. First of all, there has never, in the history of the world, been a communist state. The Soviet Union was officially, a single-party Socialist Republic, informally called a Proletariat Dictatorship. In reality, it was a top-down totalitarian elitocracy. With the few controlling all the power in front of a facade of representative elections. It was a deeply flawed form of government, ruled over by a deeply flawed group of men. It had nothing whatsoever to do with communism. Communism was the theoretical utopian end-point of the USSR, not its form of government.

Now, Liberalism was a philosophical movement that developed prior to the French Revolution. It had a dozen different movements and a dozen of them had two dozen different ideas. Everything from the modern Ultra-Left, to the modern Ultra-Right was represented in one form or another. Liberalism meant nothing more than a change from the Monarchist form of government to one that is different.

Later the term became associated with the Social Left, primarily because it was widely used in the names of political parties who espoused those ideas. But frankly, they were just appropriating the name, they didn't have much of an idea of what it represented either, it was just a popular thing. And in fact, a lot of "Liberal" parties don't really espouse those beliefs. Take the Liberal-Democratic Party of Russia. Formed in the early 90s, it was essentially a front for the KGB to provide a 3rd option for the elections so as to not have landslide victories for the communists and not to allow the former opposition to unite. In fact, the party is neither democratic, nor liberal. It might say it's Russian, but even that is suspect. It's a right-wing nationalist party that makes any populist appeal it can think of.

Rather than using labels, it is much easier to simply describe your perceived notion of the group you are describing, there's a chance you are ill-informed about the true nature of their political platform.

[StanUpshaw]

No true Scotsman would write a post like that.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

He claims to be a Libertarian, when I have pointed out to him that one of the main platforms for Libertarians is open borders.
Again, facts and reason are unable to penetrate.

What does the Rand Center know? (http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=22119&news_iv_ctrl=2523)

Ron Paul. Mr open borders HAAAAAA


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[WRESTLINGFAN]

Amazing how 3 years ago McCain called illegals gods children , now he's all gung ho about kicking them out and border security.

Its a shellgame because he's in a primary fight with JD Hayworth. Once McCain wins I can be certain that he will be Mr Amnesty again

[Crispy123]

Amazing how 3 years ago McCain called illegals gods children , now he's all gung ho about kicking them out and border security.

Its a shellgame because he's in a primary fight with JD Hayworth. Once McCain wins I can be certain that he will be Mr Amnesty again

pssst, Conservative = Con-artist.

[Barnaby Jones]

It's fascinating that WF rolls of names like Ayn Rand and Ron Paul like that's supposed to make us take his position seriously!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It's fascinating that WF rolls of names like Ayn Rand and Ron Paul like that's supposed to make us take his position seriously!

Ron Paul is so out of the mainstream?

He opposes bailouts
Voted against Iraq war. Wants a withdrawal from Afghanistan
Opposes the patriot act
Is for legalizing pot

Yea real extreme

[TjM]

Ron Paul is so out of the mainstream?

He opposes bailouts
Voted against Iraq war. Wants a withdrawal from Afghanistan
Opposes the patriot act
Is for legalizing pot

Yea real extreme

I think he means you were way off on Rand's ideology

[Barnaby Jones]

Ron Paul is so out of the mainstream?

He opposes bailouts
Voted against Iraq war. Wants a withdrawal from Afghanistan
Opposes the patriot act
Is for legalizing pot

Yea real extreme

I like how you respond to opinions nobody presented! Who said he was "extreme" or "out of the mainstream?"

[foodcourtdruide]

Amazing how 3 years ago McCain called illegals gods children , now he's all gung ho about kicking them out and border security.

Its a shellgame because he's in a primary fight with JD Hayworth. Once McCain wins I can be certain that he will be Mr Amnesty again

This should not be surprising. McCain is the defiition of political chameleon.

[Willmore]

This should not be surprising. McCain is the defiition of political chameleon.

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[Serpico1103]

Ron Paul. Mr open borders HAAAAAA


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I thought (R) meant Republican. I guess it mean libe(R)tarian.

Did I bring up Ron Paul. Is having a discussion with you always full of non sequiturs, strawman, and other faulty conclusions of reasoning?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Jackpot babies get free education while the freeloading parents become more of a burden and pump out more

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/educating-illegal-immigrants-is-594092.html


"The public-education establishment can’t have it both ways on this issue. The Los Angeles school board, for instance, harshly criticizes Arizona’s immigration enforcement law, but also complains about its own budget shortfalls. The numbers, however, confirm that illegal immigration imposes large costs on the public school system."

[Barnaby Jones]

The breadth and scope of WF's sources are amazing!

Pack up shop, people! HE'S GOT ANOTHER OP-ED PIECE AND HE'S NOT AFRAID TO USE IT!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The breadth and scope of WF's sources are amazing!

Pack up shop, people! HE'S GOT ANOTHER OP-ED PIECE AND HE'S NOT AFRAID TO USE IT!

Yea that ultra conservative right wing AJC

You live in the epicenter of Illegal immigration LA. Think one of them pushing a stroller with 2 jackpot babies walking with her and pregnant with another one paid for all those births? Youre looking at about 40K WHICH SHE DIDNT PAY FOR!!!!! Just to begin with.

[Barnaby Jones]

That clearly wasn't my point at all! Have you ever responded to something someone actually posted here?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

That clearly wasn't my point at all! Have you ever responded to something someone actually posted here?

I replied to your comment. Im sure if I posted something from Washingtn Times you would have commented about that.

So you concur that these illegals are basically robbing us blind

[Barnaby Jones]

There he goes again! The master of spin and replying to tangents nobody started!

My point is that you rely way too much on op-ed pieces, regardless of what the source is! That's a terrible way to back up your argument since it's the print equivalent of citing someone like Hannity or Beck or Olbermann!

[Serpico1103]

There he goes again! The master of spin and replying to tangents nobody started!

My point is that you rely way too much on op-ed pieces, regardless of what the source is! That's a terrible way to back up your argument since it's the print equivalent of citing someone like Hannity or Beck or Olbermann!

He confuses fact with opinion. Don't bother trying to keep him on topic.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

There he goes again! The master of spin and replying to tangents nobody started!

My point is that you rely way too much on op-ed pieces, regardless of what the source is! That's a terrible way to back up your argument since it's the print equivalent of citing someone like Hannity or Beck or Olbermann!

Does that matter?

The oroof is in the closing of hospitals because illegals dont pay a dime. The bloated school budgets and the cost of ESL teachers etc. Property owners have to foot the bill

[Barnaby Jones]

Of course your source matters! Using op-ed pieces as the bulk of your information throws any points you're making into question! If you trust their information, go to the source and confirm it or else you're setting yourself up to look silly! Don't expect anyone here to "prove you wrong" when your case is presented so shittily in the first place!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Of course your source matters! Using op-ed pieces as the bulk of your information throws any points you're making into question! If you trust their information, go to the source and confirm it or else you're setting yourself up to look silly! Don't expect anyone here to "prove you wrong" when your case is presented so shittily in the first place!

Increased property taxes and closed hospitals due to the human tsunami isnt fact enough for you?

[Barnaby Jones]

Amazing little conversations you keep having in that head of yours!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Amazing little conversations you keep having in that head of yours!

I would love to live in your bubble where there is no problem of illegal immigration.

[Barnaby Jones]

#456 of things that WF thinks people are saying in this thread but nobody has actually posted!

[Serpico1103]

Increased property taxes and closed hospitals due to the human tsunami isnt fact enough for you?

"Illegal immigration caused an increase in property taxes and the closing of hospitals."

That is your statement, without the anger.

Now, you need to prove the casual relationship. Until then, it is not "fact enough."

[WRESTLINGFAN]

"Illegal immigration caused an increase in property taxes and the closing of hospitals."

That is your statement, without the anger.

Now, you need to prove the casual relationship. Until then, it is not "fact enough."

Because these outstanding illegals pay their bills in full

Here ya go

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters64b f

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150750,00.html

http://www.allbusiness.com/medicine-health/medical-treatments-procedures-dialysis/12697335-1.html

http://www.bnet.com/blog/healthcare-business/struggling-public-hospital-in-miami-cuts-off-dialysis-payments/1052

http://www.the-signal.com/archives/12489/

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Nebraska said NO MAS... Adios freeloaders!!!



http://journalstar.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_4d571250-0626-11df-b569-001cc4c03286.html

[Barnaby Jones]

Nebraska said NO MAS... Adios freeloaders!!!



http://journalstar.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_4d571250-0626-11df-b569-001cc4c03286.html

Hee-hee! Do you even read the things you post? You have one chance to figure out what's glaringly wrong about your commentary!

[Barnaby Jones]

Because these outstanding illegals pay their bills in full

Here ya go

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters64b f

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150750,00.html

http://www.allbusiness.com/medicine-health/medical-treatments-procedures-dialysis/12697335-1.html

http://www.bnet.com/blog/healthcare-business/struggling-public-hospital-in-miami-cuts-off-dialysis-payments/1052

http://www.the-signal.com/archives/12489/

Is this hilarious or just sad? Maybe both?

[Serpico1103]

Because these outstanding illegals pay their bills in full

Here ya go

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters64b f

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150750,00.html

http://www.allbusiness.com/medicine-health/medical-treatments-procedures-dialysis/12697335-1.html

http://www.bnet.com/blog/healthcare-business/struggling-public-hospital-in-miami-cuts-off-dialysis-payments/1052

http://www.the-signal.com/archives/12489/

Glanced through the sites. None mention any positive economic contribution illegals give. I am not saying that it outweighs the negative, but how can you give a complete analysis when leaving out half the equation.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Glanced through the sites. None mention any positive economic contribution illegals give. I am not saying that it outweighs the negative, but how can you give a complete analysis when leaving out half the equation.

The original FAIR report I posted showed the contributions of illegals thru them paying sales taxes etc. But the costs outweigh them


Here's another site showing how they consume more than they pay in taxes

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Commentary/2007/06/Spinning-the-Real-Costs-of-Illegals


And theres it right there. The huge majority are unskilled, with very little education. So is Jose and Consuela really cracking the books in the lab ?

"Low-skill immigrants receive, on average, three dollars in government benefits for each dollar of taxes paid. This imbalance generates a net cost of $89 billion per year on U.S. taxpayers. Over a lifetime the typical low-skill immigrant household costs taxpayers $1.2 million dollars."

[Serpico1103]

The original FAIR report I posted showed the contributions of illegals thru them paying sales taxes etc. But the costs outweigh them

From what I have read, it is nearly impossible to quantify the costs, because it is illegal to ask immigration status at hospitals and schools. How are they getting the sales tax numbers? It doesn't seem scientific.

Merely trying to get you to take an unemotional approach. Instead of screaming about drunk driving and lazy parasites.

I wouldn't trust anything from "FAIR", too Orwellian.

[Barnaby Jones]

From what I have read, it is nearly impossible to quantify the costs, because it is illegal to ask immigration status at hospitals and schools. How are they getting the sales tax numbers? It doesn't seem scientific.

Merely trying to get you to take an unemotional approach. Instead of screaming about drunk driving and lazy parasites.

I wouldn't trust anything from "FAIR", too Orwellian.

I love how he backs up his FAIR info with a Heritage Foundation link! I can only assume that he's actually an elaborate character and doesn't really want anyone to take him seriously!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I love how he backs up his FAIR info with a Heritage Foundation link! I can only assume that he's actually an elaborate character and doesn't really want anyone to take him seriously!

I clearly stated that they do contribute but very little. The amount your amigos contribute is far less than they consume of social services.

[Barnaby Jones]

I clearly stated that they do contribute but very little. The amount your amigos contribute is far less than they consume of social services.

Stop responding to and quoting my posts and then posting something yourself responding to something nonexistent! My point, yet again, is that you don't ever stop to consider the sources of your information for a second, so far as you even post things screaming that they're indicating one thing when the reality is something completely different (like posting that Nebraska is cutting off Medicaid to pregnant illegals, when actually that was a federal decision and the article talks about how the Nebraska state government is likely to look to still be able provide pregnancy services to illegals)! You seem to confuse a flood of posts and links as backing up your point or winning an argument when all it does is make you look like some kind of e-spastic who can't even be bothered to double check the information he's using! Take the time to use good sources and double check your informaiton if you expect people to take you seriously!

[spoon]

The original FAIR report I posted showed the contributions of illegals thru them paying sales taxes etc. But the costs outweigh them


Here's another site showing how they consume more than they pay in taxes

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Commentary/2007/06/Spinning-the-Real-Costs-of-Illegals


And theres it right there. The huge majority are unskilled, with very little education. So is Jose and Consuela really cracking the books in the lab ?

"Low-skill immigrants receive, on average, three dollars in government benefits for each dollar of taxes paid. This imbalance generates a net cost of $89 billion per year on U.S. taxpayers. Over a lifetime the typical low-skill immigrant household costs taxpayers $1.2 million dollars."

http://www.heritage.org/static/images/logo.jpg

Great source buddy! What's next, KKK site info/studies on how Mexicans have less brain mass? I feel sorry for "Jose and Consuela's" attempts at "cracking the books in the lab". You really can't get through a post without underlying racism can you?

[Barnaby Jones]

I wouldn't equate the Heritage Foundation with the KKK, but they're certainly a poor choice as a source!

[spoon]

I wouldn't equate the Heritage Foundation with the KKK, but they're certainly a poor choice as a source!

It's the next step for WF that's all. I'm truly waiting for it.

[Barnaby Jones]

I wonder how many times WF has forwarded the "Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal" e-mail?

[spoon]

I wonder how many times WF has forwarded the "Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal" e-mail?

Is Jose a plumber too? :wacko:

[hanso]

The original FAIR report I posted showed the contributions of illegals thru them paying sales taxes etc. But the costs outweigh them


Here's another site showing how they consume more than they pay in taxes

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Commentary/2007/06/Spinning-the-Real-Costs-of-Illegals


And theres it right there. The huge majority are unskilled, with very little education. So is Jose and Consuela really cracking the books in the lab ?

"Low-skill immigrants receive, on average, three dollars in government benefits for each dollar of taxes paid. This imbalance generates a net cost of $89 billion per year on U.S. taxpayers. Over a lifetime the typical low-skill immigrant household costs taxpayers $1.2 million dollars."

Why does it always come down to taxes from your side? Any money spent helps the economy.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Is Jose a plumber too? :wacko:

Jose loves to lay pipe, hence all those jackpot babies

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://www.heritage.org/static/images/logo.jpg

Great source buddy! What's next, KKK site info/studies on how Mexicans have less brain mass? I feel sorry for "Jose and Consuela's" attempts at "cracking the books in the lab". You really can't get through a post without underlying racism can you?

The same old tired lines of racism. Im immune to that drivel. You fucking hate the facts that I provided sources on how illegal aliens are a drain on society.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Why does it always come down to taxes from your side? Any money spent helps the economy.

If they are contributing verry little and consuming more its a net loss.

Think of a business which has expenses of 100k and revenue of 50K. Theres no profit

[Barnaby Jones]

You honestly think you contribute more than you "consume?!?" Holy crap, talk about delusions!

[Barnaby Jones]

The same old tired lines of racism. Im immune to that drivel. You fucking hate the facts that I provided sources on how illegal aliens are a drain on society.

The KKK shit was ridiculous, but don't front like posting shit from the Heritage Foundation is posting "facts." Again, you don't care about the quality of your sources at all!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You honestly think you contribute more than you "consume?!?" Holy crap, talk about delusions!

Im not going to the hospital for a headcold and crowding the ER like all the illegals are. I dont have 5 kids in Public school. I am not donating sperm every 9 months and having another jackpot baby.

I pay property taxes so I am contributing more than the illegal ever will

[Syd]

To be fair, taking something to the table written by Heritage is the same as Barnaby showing up with something written by Soros

They have their agendas and are going to bend data to reflect their wants

[Barnaby Jones]

Incredible evasion! He's like Spider-Man dodging bullets!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The KKK shit was ridiculous, but don't front like posting shit from the Heritage Foundation is posting "facts." Again, you don't care about the quality of your sources at all!

I provided more than just from Heritage. Heres another one from USA today. I don think they are wearing white sheets and burning crosses there

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm

[Barnaby Jones]

To be fair, taking something to the table written by Heritage is the same as Barnaby showing up with something written by Soros

They have their agendas and are going to bend data to reflect their wants

That's dirty pool!

[Barnaby Jones]

I provided more than just from Heritage. Heres another one from USA today. I don think they are wearing white sheets and burning crosses there

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm

That's actually a very good article, and of course it's not saying what you clearly assume it is! Hilarious!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

To hell with that religious nut Carrie Prijon. The new Miss CA is fucking amazing


http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local-beat/SD-New-Miss-California-Against-Amnesty-for-Illegal-Immigrants-98407594.html

[WRESTLINGFAN]

That's actually a very good article, and of course it's not saying what you clearly assume it is! Hilarious!

From the article

"For many illegal immigrants, the fear of deportation outweighs the pain of illness or injury, so they live with their afflictions rather than seeking help until their health problems become critical. That makes things worse — for them, for hospitals that eventually treat them, and for taxpayers who ultimately foot the bill."


Thats all that is needed to be stated

[Barnaby Jones]

This is really incredible! I've never encountered someone this horrible at debating! Hold on, let me go cut and paste someone stating a position I agree with as proof of my point! Hee-hee!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This is really incredible! I've never encountered someone this horrible at debating! Hold on, let me go cut and paste someone stating a position I agree with as proof of my point! Hee-hee!

Holy fuck I just gave you an article from USA TODAY!!!!! Do you really think they swing far to the right?

Do you want me to go around the country and do my own study?:wallbash:

Im going to have to hit thousands of Home depots and hospitals

[Dude!]

Holy fuck I just gave you an article from USA TODAY!!!!! Do you really think they swing far to the right?

Do you want me to go around the country and do my own study?:wallbash:

Im going to have to hit thousands of Home depots and hospitals

WF, i have to give you credit
for your incredible patience...
you suffer fools so gladly!

[Barnaby Jones]

You seriously don't understand how it's meaningless when you simply quote a line that says nothing except parrot your own conclusion without any kind of breakdown or explanation?

Look, let's cut to the chase, since this is like making a cat chase the light from a laser pointer; our health care system as it stands ends up where the taxpayer "foots the bill" (to use a really stupid generalization since it's not like fixing the health care system would cause taxes to drop) when tons of people without enough income need medical help, legal or illegal! This is tied into a ton of huge areas where there is glaring need for reform, from health care to immigration to wages! But WF wants nothing to do with this! At the end of the day he just wants to leave poor people out in the cold, regardless of whether they're illegal or not!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

WF, i have to give you credit
for your incredible patience...
you suffer fools so gladly!

Appreciate it.

Maybe they are all here illegally

[Barnaby Jones]

When Dude! is your only backer you know you're in trouble!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You seriously don't understand how it's meaningless when you simply quote a line that says nothing except parrot your own conclusion without any kind of breakdown or explanation?

Look, let's cut to the chase, since this is like making a cat chase the light from a laser pointer; our health care system as it stands ends up where the taxpayer "foots the bill" (to use a really stupid generalization since it's not like fixing the health care system would cause taxes to drop) when tons of people without enough income need medical help, legal or illegal! This is tied into a ton of huge areas where there is glaring need for reform, from health care to immigration to wages! But WF wants nothing to do with this! At the end of the day he just wants to leave poor people out in the cold, regardless of whether they're illegal or not!

Leave the legal ones out of it. You always want to group people here legally with illegal aliens. It's not working.

I dont give a fuck if you call me racist or xenophobe. I stand by my opinions that illegal aliens don't deserve a fucking dime out of me. If you want to take in some day laborers , pregnant illegal women and theiur children, and feed and clothe them thats your decision.

[Barnaby Jones]

I didn't call you a racist or a xenophobe in that post! Nobody's taking an extra dime from you; you'd be paying the same with or without illegals! For all your talk of entitlements, you seem to have a ridiculously inflated sense of your own financial worth and involvement in this country!

My point is that your clueless complaint about you "footing the bill" is applicable to millions of people who are here "legally!"