The Juneau Juno (The Sarah Palin Thread)

[scottinnj]

We had a great thread on this.
(http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65816) Scottinnj, underdog, yerdaddy, and I fought like alleycats until the wee hours for days. Finally Mike the Teacher came in and set the record straight. (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65816&highlight=Mike+Teacher&page=4)

So... if you want to start this debate again, read that thread first.

Holy shit we sure did. I'm glad we're still freinds, or to put it better, I'm glad you guys put up with my temper tantrum as long as you did.

[epo]

Then have a comparative religion class. Keep that the fuck out of a science class.

Exactly. Especially in light of the fact that we rank so low internationally in math and science.

People need to understand that we live in a world economy that demands that our students receive the best education possible. We need to develop the "intellectual capital" that will create innovation and attract corporations to spur our national economy.

Teaching any version of creationsim does not help our national cause.

[JerseySean]

See Knox's post. It doesn't work. Religious tales have no place in a science class. It would basically be like teaching an astronomy class and then giving all the kids a comic book about Galactus and the Silver Surfer and saying that those might be legit, too. Imagine how much time in science classes would be wasted branching off into the different religions and their folk tales. They're science classes! Teach kids science, dammit.

Again, I agree. But dont compare comic books and the Bible. It doesnt work and it seems very snide to do so. But I get your point.

[thejives]

Holy shit we sure did. I'm glad we're still freinds, or to put it better, I'm glad you guys put up with my temper tantrum as long as you did.

Those were good times.

Your posts in the hot chick pic game went a long way in smoothing that over.
There's so much more that unites us.

[TheMojoPin]

In many cases students feel offended. Hey I agree with you on this just playing Devils Advocate

That's nuts. Why not apply that worrywart nonsense to every subject? Some kid might be "offended," so we have to teach every crackpot variation of a topic.

Aren't our schools bad enough as it is without additional pointless distractions?

[Friday]

Her fiancee.

good one.

haha

yeah... fiancee is such a respectable, quaint term for a forced marriage due to unwanted pregnancy.

indeed. :p

[scottinnj]

"Everyone is forgetting that Alaska is right next to Russia up there!"

I did read something interesting about the Missle Defense System they have up there and how she and former Alaskan governors are privy to national security items that other governors may not have access to.

[ChrisTheCop]

haha

yeah... fiancee is such a respectable, quaint term for a forced marriage due to unwanted pregnancy.

indeed. :p

shhhh (please)...theyve moved on. shhhhhhhhhh

[scottinnj]

Then have a comparative religion class. Keep that the fuck out of a science class.

Exactly. Especially in light of the fact that we rank so low internationally in math and science.

People need to understand that we live in a world economy that demands that our students receive the best education possible. We need to develop the "intellectual capital" that will create innovation and attract corporations to spur our national economy.

Teaching any version of creationsim does not help our national cause.

That's what I came to a conclusion to after our last debate. Yep, keep it out of science class, allow discussion in some elective class.

[TheMojoPin]

I did read something interesting about the Missle Defense System they have up there and how she and former Alaskan governors are privy to national security items that other governors may not have access to.

No, that's the moose defense system.

[scottinnj]

Aren't our schools bad enough as it is without additional pointless distractions?


Agreed. Let's raise the scores first, then we'll bicker with what next to teach our little geniuses.

[JerseySean]

That's nuts. Why not apply that worrywart nonsense to every subject? Some kid might be "offended," so we have to teach every crackpot variation of a topic.

Aren't our schools bad enough as it is without additional pointless distractions?

Athiest are offended arent they. Thats why we dont teach that. Understanding peoples faiths and being tolerant to them is an important part of life. I dont see a problem with it. Whats the harm in teaching the story of Adam and Eve for one day at the beginning of the school year, teaching evolution the rest of the way and then coming back to evolution and having a discussion with students on whether they think both ideologies can coexist or if they cant and why.

[scottinnj]

No, that's the moose defense system.

God you make me laugh real real hard sometimes!:clap:

[Ritalin]

Alright, I'll be the one to say it: Sarah Palin and her family are white trash. There, I said it. Hell, they call THEMSELVES Valley Trash, and nobody calls themselves trash unless they are. I mean, look at the kids' names: Track, Trig, Bristol, Willow and Piper. Those are some WHITE FUCKING TRASH names right there. The only white trash name they didn't use is Kameron with a K (and that might be Track's middle name).

It's nice that the kinda pretty girl could put on some smarty glasses and work her way up from city council of a truck stop to mayor of a truck stop to governor....of a truck stop, but this has gone far enough. Troopergate is just more white trash bullshit, feuding city worker families and straight up bullshit lies.

And now Bristol's all good and knocked up by that handsome mullethead Levi, and Sarah Barracuda's going to be damned if that stops her from taking that Vice President spot. Suck it up and suck it in, Bristol. You smile and look HAPPY, goddamn it. No one will ever find out, right? They'll get married, Bristol and Levi, and move next door to Sarah and raise little Kaitlin or Jackson RIGHT, with good Christian values that they'll follow.

Until it becomes convenient not to again.

Do we really want this trashy family one dusty McCain heartbeat away from the most powerful office in the world?

I don't.

[K.C.]

That's what I came to a conclusion to after our last debate. Yep, keep it out of science class, allow discussion in some elective class.

Until they fucking teach Time Travel, I don't want to hear another word about that bullshit in science classes.

Time Travel FTW!!!!

[epo]

That's what I came to a conclusion to after our last debate. Yep, keep it out of science class, allow discussion in some elective class.

That would be a wonderful example of a social studies type class. Give a pre-requisite of certain science classes and have a semester-long discussion that includes a diverse mix of religions....and a non-religion too.

Heck, kids might learn a little something about the world and become more tolerant people.

[Ritalin]

Again, I agree. But dont compare comic books and the Bible. It doesnt work and it seems very snide to do so. But I get your point.

Don't they make biblical comic books?

Just asking.

[KnoxHarrington]

Holy shit, this keeps getting better and better. The FBI is saying that they did not take part in a background check of Sarah Palin. Now, this isn't such a big deal in and of itself -- except for what this spokesman of the McCain campaign said:

The Washington Post reported Sunday, citing an interview with campaign manager Rick Davis, that the vetting process "included reviews of financial and other personal data, an FBI background check and considerable discussion among the handful of McCain advisers nvolved in the deliberations.

So they just blatantly lied about this.

What exactly did they know about this chick?

Story here, since, as always, I try to cite what I post: http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/palin_and_the_fbi_background_c.php

[thejives]

God you make me real real hard sometimes!:clap:

fixed

[JerseySean]

Holy shit, this keeps getting better and better. The FBI is saying that they did not take part in a background check of Sarah Palin. Now, this isn't such a big deal in and of itself -- except for what this spokesman of the McCain campaign said:



So they just blatantly lied about this.

What exactly did they know about this chick?

Story here, since, as always, I try to cite what I post: http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/palin_and_the_fbi_background_c.php

Relax, guys. I am sure Davis meant Secret Service check. Obviously there werent FBI agents talking to old neighbors, so Im sure he misspoke.

[Ritalin]

Relax, guys. I am sure Davis meant Secret Service check. Obviously there werent FBI agents talking to old neighbors, so Im sure he misspoke.

Why not? FBI does background checks for security clearances all the time.

[TheMojoPin]

Athiest are offended arent they. Thats why we dont teach that. Understanding peoples faiths and being tolerant to them is an important part of life. I dont see a problem with it. Whats the harm in teaching the story of Adam and Eve for one day at the beginning of the school year, teaching evolution the rest of the way and then coming back to evolution and having a discussion with students on whether they think both ideologies can coexist or if they cant and why.

That's a philosophy class, if that. Like others have suggested, offer an elective course for the delicate angels that might be offended. And religion isn't taught in those classes because it's not SCIENCE. It's not HISTORY. It has nothing to do with atheists and everything to do with such a suggestion being insulting to thse very involved and academic fields of study. Where does it end? Do we throw the Bible into english classes because someone disagrees ethically with a character due to the 10 commandments?

[KnoxHarrington]

That's a philosophy class, if that. Like others have suggested, offer an elective course for the delicate angels that might be offended. And religion isn't taught in those classes because it's not SCIENCE. It's not HISTORY. It has nothing to do with atheists and everything to do with such a suggestion being insulting to thse very involved and academic fields of study. Where does it end? Do we throw the Bible into english classes because someone disagrees ethically with a character due to the 10 commandments?

Once again, a big point of science class, especially in elementary school or middle school, is to teach scientific method. Saying "But here's another story if you don't like that one" is NOT scientific method.

[Friday]

Alright, I'll be the one to say it: Sarah Palin and her family are white trash. There, I said it. Hell, they call THEMSELVES Valley Trash, and nobody calls themselves trash unless they are. I mean, look at the kids' names: Track, Trig, Bristol, Willow and Piper. Those are some WHITE FUCKING TRASH names right there. The only white trash name they didn't use is Kameron with a K (and that might be Track's middle name).

It's nice that the kinda pretty girl could put on some smarty glasses and work her way up from city council of a truck stop to mayor of a truck stop to governor....of a truck stop, but this has gone far enough. Troopergate is just more white trash bullshit, feuding city worker families and straight up bullshit lies.

And now Bristol's all good and knocked up by that handsome mullethead Levi, and Sarah Barracuda's going to be damned if that stops her from taking that Vice President spot. Suck it up and suck it in, Bristol. You smile and look HAPPY, goddamn it. No one will ever find out, right? They'll get married, Bristol and Levi, and move next door to Sarah and raise little Kaitlin or Jackson RIGHT, with good Christian values that they'll follow.

Until it becomes convenient not to again.

Do we really want this trashy family one dusty McCain heartbeat away from the most powerful office in the world?

I don't.

yay!
Ritalin is going to vote Obama!
I am brilliantly pleased right now!

[ChrisTheCop]

yay!
Ritalin is going to vote Obama!
I am brilliantly pleased right now!

That may be the thing that finally makes me decide.
"What will make Friday brilliantly pleased right now?"

[Ritalin]

That may be the thing that finally makes me decide.
"What will make Friday brilliantly pleased right now?"

So you're going to vote for a vibrator?

[scottinnj]

Don't they make biblical comic books?

Just asking.

Yep. Google "Jack Chick Tracts" and you'll see some from when I was a kid.

Here's a frame from one about Sodom and Gomorrah:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/0/08/180px-Jack_Chick_frame.png

[scottinnj]

fixed

You task me thejives.....you task me and I shall have you!







http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n253/bilboassboner/khan.jpg
THEJIVES!!!!!!!!!

[thejives]

Here's a frame from one about Sodom and Gomorrah:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/0/08/180px-Jack_Chick_frame.png

I never ever want to see another frame.

[scottinnj]

I never ever want to see another frame.

Yeah, they pretty much scared the crap outta me when I was a kid. And looking back, there was this "America = Christianity" vibe about them too. Like in order to be a patriot, you had to be a Christian. After all, didn't those dudes die on Normandy Beach all goto Heaven?

[Dudeman]

Athiest are offended arent they. Thats why we dont teach that. Understanding peoples faiths and being tolerant to them is an important part of life. I dont see a problem with it. Whats the harm in teaching the story of Adam and Eve for one day at the beginning of the school year, teaching evolution the rest of the way and then coming back to evolution and having a discussion with students on whether they think both ideologies can coexist or if they cant and why.

It isn't athiest that are offended. It is scientists that are offended.

Evolution has had huge numbers of experiments done to confirm its validity.

Run one fucking experiment in support of creation, and then put it in the science class.

[Kevin]

No, that's the moose defense system.

http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/2007/08/29/mike_mussina.jpg

He is having a great year.

[scottinnj]

http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/2007/08/29/mike_mussina.jpg

He is having a great year.

Did he really toss that ball in the air for the shot or is that a photoshop?

Either way, that's the gayest baseball card pose I've ever seen.

[Kevin]

Did he really toss that ball in the air for the shot or is that a photoshop?

Either way, that's the gayest baseball card pose I've ever seen.

HE FINISHED STANFORD IN 3 YEARS! He could catch that ball with his eyes closed!!

[Recyclerz]

Pretty interesting and wide-ranging thread you're running here.
KC, Epo, Tenbats, HBox, theJives (to name just a few) made the points I agree with most.

Since I'd like a turn at stirrin' the shit up a bit, let me dig up this old chestnut for those who are arguing that the kids of political opponents should be off limits (a point that I don't disagree with, BTW)

John McCain to the audience of a Republican fundraiser in 1998:
Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?
Because Janet Reno is her father.

http://www.salon.com/news/1998/06/25newsb.html

[K.C.]

Gotta love the Post:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9931/nypostnf4.jpg


Palin and her husband, Todd, said their daughter plans to marry the child's father - who sources said is Levi Johnston - and that both "are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family."

Johnston, 17, who is entering his senior year at Wasilla HS, plays on the school hockey team and was once teammates on a youth squad with Palin's older brother, Track, 19, who is now in the Army.

Despite suffering a cracked bone in his shin last season, Johnston scored 24 goals in 24 games.

"We don't want to talk about this," said a woman who answered the phone at the Johnston home.

On his MySpace page, Johnston boasts, "I'm a f - - -in' redneck" who likes to snowboard and ride dirt bikes.

"But I live to play hockey. I like to go camping and hang out with the boys, do some fishing, shoot some s- - - and just f - - -in' chillin' I guess."

"Ya f - - - with me I'll kick [your] ass," he added.

He also claims to be "in a relationship," but states, "I don't want kids."




<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nBDbUVXXp-U&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nBDbUVXXp-U&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[TheMojoPin]

He says he's a "fucking redneck," Palin said her family is "Valley trash"...these idiots are made for each other. That white trash post is spot on.

Note to self: NEVER GO TO ALASKA.

[A.J.]

How come we hear more about Palin's son going to Iraq than Biden's?

Because Palin's son is a young ground-pounder while Biden's son is an almost 40 JAG officer.

[A.J.]

"Everyone is forgetting that Alaska is right next to Russia up there!"

And Canada!

[A.J.]

Gotta love the Post:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9931/nypostnf4.jpg

On his MySpace page, Johnston boasts, "I'm a f - - -in' redneck" who likes to snowboard and ride dirt bikes.

"But I live to play hockey. I like to go camping and hang out with the boys, do some fishing, shoot some s- - - and just f - - -in' chillin' I guess."

"Ya f - - - with me I'll kick [your] ass," he added.

He also claims to be "in a relationship," but states, "I don't want kids."

Yeah. This is totally going to work out for everyone involved.

[KnoxHarrington]

OK, time to look at the records of McCain and Palin (well, McCain) on teen pregnancy issues. It's about what you'd expect: McCain has steadfastly fought any effort to give federal funds to teen pregnancy prevention programs that do not exclusively promote abstinence, and any government spending on contraceptives. It's a little hard to tell, though, because on the campaign trail, Mr. Maverick won't talk about this issue much.

Here may be the most telling quote of this whole article:

"Ahhh, I think I support the president's policy," McCain said.

When reporters pressed McCain whether the government should provide contraceptives or counseling on contraceptives, he replied, "You've stumped me." McCain said later that he was sure he opposed government spending on contraceptives.

How's your straight-talking maverick now?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080902/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_mccain_teen_pregnancies;_ylt=ApvIn.YgsGvYWN8IW aah0Uys0NUE

[GreatAmericanZero]

It isn't athiest that are offended. It is scientists that are offended.

Evolution has had huge numbers of experiments done to confirm its validity.

Run one fucking experiment in support of creation, and then put it in the science class.

yep

Stupid people like to say "Evolution is just a theory". They think the word "theory" means what it does when they are talking about a psychological theory. A scientific theory is actually the highest regard of "Scientific fact". People get the word "theory" mixed up with "hypothesis". But a theory is a proven hypothesis

[Freitag]

Yeah. This is totally going to work out for everyone involved.

I really don't like this nouveau-journalism tactic of using a person's myspace page as a basis of their personality. It's basically an exagerration, a pro-wrestling persona on a myspace, especially a guy's myspace.

For example, I have the phrase "White trash with money" (a reference to a Toby keith album) and a reference to Jack Bauer shooting someone in the leg from 24. Taken out of context, you can paint a completely different picture of me.

[Hottub]

I really don't like this nouveau-journalism tactic of using a person's myspace page as a basis of their personality. It's basically an exagerration, a pro-wrestling persona on a myspace, especially a guy's myspace.

For example, I have the phrase "White trash with money" (a reference to a Toby keith album) and a reference to Jack Bauer shooting someone in the leg from 24. Taken out of context, you can paint a completely different picture of me.

Mine has boobies and beer. And if you happen to...

Oh wait. That IS me.:tongue:

[epo]

I really don't like this nouveau-journalism tactic of using a person's myspace page as a basis of their personality. It's basically an exagerration, a pro-wrestling persona on a myspace, especially a guy's myspace.

For example, I have the phrase "White trash with money" (a reference to a Toby keith album) and a reference to Jack Bauer shooting someone in the leg from 24. Taken out of context, you can paint a completely different picture of me.

But honestly, it's Rupert Murdoch's NY Post.

Imagine how bad this whole situation must be that Rupert Murdoch's own newspaper is doing this shit...............

[A.J.]

I really don't like this nouveau-journalism tactic of using a person's myspace page as a basis of their personality. It's basically an exagerration, a pro-wrestling persona on a myspace, especially a guy's myspace.

For example, I have the phrase "White trash with money" (a reference to a Toby keith album) and a reference to Jack Bauer shooting someone in the leg from 24. Taken out of context, you can paint a completely different picture of me.

I get what you're saying but regardless; to be 17 and getting married because of an accidental pregnancy? DISASTER.

[angrymissy]

I get what you're saying but regardless; to be 17 and getting married because of an accidental pregnancy? DISASTER.

no, no, I don't think you understand... THEY ARE BRAVE AND DOING THE RIGHT THING! BRAVE I TELL YOU!

[Freitag]

no, no, I don't think you understand... THEY ARE BRAVE AND DOING THE RIGHT THING! BRAVE I TELL YOU!

The wedding will probably be set for after the baby is born, which is after the election. If McCain doesn't win, they aren't getting married.

[angrymissy]

Honestly, I wonder if she really wants the baby, or feels forced to have it due to the situation...

[BinaryBimbo]

Gotta love the Post:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9931/nypostnf4.jpg







<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nBDbUVXXp-U&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nBDbUVXXp-U&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

God this guy sounds like an immature loser.

I've always respected guys who act tough on the Internets.

[BinaryBimbo]

I really don't like this nouveau-journalism tactic of using a person's myspace page as a basis of their personality. It's basically an exagerration, a pro-wrestling persona on a myspace, especially a guy's myspace.

For example, I have the phrase "White trash with money" (a reference to a Toby keith album) and a reference to Jack Bauer shooting someone in the leg from 24. Taken out of context, you can paint a completely different picture of me.

But it's fair to critic because it's your persona that you wish to project upon others. If one doesn't want to be unfairly labeled it only makes sense to drop the hyperbole on any online profile.

So this kid is a jerk who doesn't want the baby according to his own words. Why should I assume he's lying?

[A.J.]

no, no, I don't think you understand... THEY ARE BRAVE AND DOING THE RIGHT THING! BRAVE I TELL YOU!

Yes! YES! I SEE THE LIGHT!!!!

http://homepage.mac.com/hodelas/daddyMovies/C1721030558/E39450825/Media/the_light.jpg

[Zorro]

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n67/Chas4604/pc_cover.gif

[Freitag]

I honestly thinks she wants to have the baby. One of several reasons...

If they are in fact a "good Christian family", she'll see this as God's will.

Secondly, the family is pretty well-off, (she made 70K as mayor of Wasilla, so who knows how much she makes now, plus the husband is an oilman) so it's not like she's going to be suffering majorly financially.

Technology has made it a lot easier to learn from home, in high school and in college. The game has changed drastically so it's not like she's putting her life on hold.

And as I said before - she's 17 and she's got money. If she didn't want to have the kid - she wouldn't be having the kid.

[A.J.]

Having the kid is one thing. Getting married because of it is just stupid.

[angrymissy]

I don't think she has any choice at all, considering the media coverage surrounding this... she gets an abortion and what a shitstorm there would be, if she doesn't marry the guy, she'll be branded a unwed harlot... the only option for her right now is to have the kid and marry the guy.

[Freitag]

So this kid is a jerk who doesn't want the baby according to his own words. Why should I assume he's lying?

The "don't want the baby" thing is an option on Myspace when you first fill out your profile.

Show me one macho hockey-playing jock who lists on his public profile he wants kids at 17.

[Freitag]

I don't think she has any choice at all, considering the media coverage surrounding this... she gets an abortion and what a shitstorm there would be, if she doesn't marry the guy, she'll be branded a unwed harlot... the only option for her right now is to have the kid and marry the guy.

She doesn't have a choice now... but 2-3 months ago, when there was no media scrutiny on her whatsoever, she might have gotten away with it.

[A.J.]

if she doesn't marry the guy, she'll be branded a unwed harlot...

True, but to the Bible thumpers she's already a whore for getting knocked up before marriage. I guess a shotgun wedding is a form of "penance" so God will forgive their awful, horrible sin.

[BinaryBimbo]

I don't think she has any choice at all, considering the media coverage surrounding this... she gets an abortion and what a shitstorm there would be, if she doesn't marry the guy, she'll be branded a unwed harlot... the only option for her right now is to have the kid and marry the guy.

Yeah It appears that way, for all we know Mom and Dad might have tossed her out of the house if she asked to get abortion.

It must suck to have a kid that young - married or not. My little Sister had hers at 15, and the little snot grew up to be a gang banger chick. Maybe if Mom wasn't working two jobs, (including a late night bar gig), the girl would have turned out better; but she is shit now. After she stabbed a guy I dropped her, and Sister from my life. I'm sure by now she is back on the reservation living on welfare.

[BinaryBimbo]

The "don't want the baby" thing is an option on Myspace when you first fill out your profile.

Show me one macho hockey-playing jock who lists on his public profile he wants kids at 17.

Some guys want a family; some don't know what they want yet. That wasn't my objection to the kid. His statement about kicking ass was unnecessary and shows me he has some growing up to do. The swear words on the site also tell me he hasn't thought about his future in the workplace yet. He has a baby and a marriage coming, and he still has fuck on his page even after girlfriends Mom is picked for Veep candidate. Not the sharpest tool in the shed imo.

[Zorro]

I don't think she has any choice at all, considering the media coverage surrounding this... she gets an abortion and what a shitstorm there would be, if she doesn't marry the guy, she'll be branded a unwed harlot... the only option for her right now is to have the kid and marry the guy.

...or maybe she discussed the situation with her parents and its a decision they arrived at together...

I am kind of surprised by the hate that you guys have thrown on a girl who made a mistake...

[angrymissy]

...or maybe she discussed the situation with her parents and its a decision they arrived at together...

I am kind of surprised by the hate that you guys have thrown on a girl who made a mistake...

I don't hate this girl, I feel sorry for her. Show me where I show any type of hate. I feel bad for her because she really only has one option right now, grin, have the baby, and get married.

Honestly, I think her mother is an shithead for taking the VP offer if she knew her daughter was pregnant, not for political reasons, but considering she must have know the scrutiny it would have put the poor girl (her daughter) under.

[Ritalin]

Alright, I'll be the one to say it: Sarah Palin and her family are white trash. There, I said it. Hell, they call THEMSELVES Valley Trash, and nobody calls themselves trash unless they are. I mean, look at the kids' names: Track, Trig, Bristol, Willow and Piper. Those are some WHITE FUCKING TRASH names right there. The only white trash name they didn't use is Kameron with a K (and that might be Track's middle name).

It's nice that the kinda pretty girl could put on some smarty glasses and work her way up from city council of a truck stop to mayor of a truck stop to governor....of a truck stop, but this has gone far enough. Troopergate is just more white trash bullshit, feuding city worker families and straight up bullshit lies.

And now Bristol's all good and knocked up by that handsome mullethead Levi, and Sarah Barracuda's going to be damned if that stops her from taking that Vice President spot. Suck it up and suck it in, Bristol. You smile and look HAPPY, goddamn it. No one will ever find out, right? They'll get married, Bristol and Levi, and move next door to Sarah and raise little Kaitlin or Jackson RIGHT, with good Christian values that they'll follow.

Until it becomes convenient not to again.

Do we really want this trashy family one dusty McCain heartbeat away from the most powerful office in the world?

I don't.

:bye:

[Dudeman]

I don't think she has any choice at all, considering the media coverage surrounding this... she gets an abortion and what a shitstorm there would be, if she doesn't marry the guy, she'll be branded a unwed harlot... the only option for her right now is to have the kid and marry the guy.

the choice to discuss is condom vs. no condom, not just abortion vs. no abortion

[angrymissy]

the choice to discuss is condom vs. no condom, not just abortion vs. no abortion

Well, yes, that opens the whole "Does abstinence only education work" discussion.

[Drunky McBetidont]

Honestly, I wonder if she really wants the baby, or feels forced to have it due to the situation...

we see how well that worked out for casey anthony. didn't want baby. mom talks her into keeping it. killed it and buried it before its third birthday. (rip cailee)
thats pro-life!

[epo]

Well, yes, that opens the whole "Does abstinence only education work" discussion.

In terms of just pure discourse, it is the right discussion as its about the root cause of this problem.

[angrymissy]

In terms of just pure discourse, it is the right discussion as its about the root cause of this problem.

Of course... but people (I've noticed, at least on other political boards I frequent", will flip if you bring that up in relation to this girl being pregnant.

[epo]

we see how well that worked out for casey anthony. didn't want baby. mom talks her into keeping it. killed it and buried it before its third birthday. (rip cailee)
thats pro-life!

That seems to be a ridiculous comparison.

[NewYorkDragons80]

BTW, just some people don't get confused here:

I didn't think that this was true at all. But after McGreevey, I wouldn't be shocked if it was true, and I was trying to "work through the theory".
Dude, that's kind of a cop out.

[angrymissy]

What was that stuff attached to blah blah blah. Why should the govt pay for that anyway? Moreover, ANYONE can go to planned parenthood and get free condoms and birth control, so stop it.

Yeah, except there are only 4 Planned Parenthoods in AK, what are you supposed to do when the closest one is 100 miles away?

[Drunky McBetidont]

I honestly thinks she wants to have the baby. One of several reasons...

If they are in fact a "good Christian family", she'll see this as God's will.

Secondly, the family is pretty well-off, (she made 70K as mayor of Wasilla, so who knows how much she makes now, plus the husband is an oilman) so it's not like she's going to be suffering majorly financially.

Technology has made it a lot easier to learn from home, in high school and in college. The game has changed drastically so it's not like she's putting her life on hold.

And as I said before - she's 17 and she's got money. If she didn't want to have the kid - she wouldn't be having the kid.

i keep telling my chick that it is god's will that i throat fuck her and she doesn't believe it. i should have just gone with blowing my load in her, that seems to be inspired by the holy spirit.
go god!

[K.C.]

Having the kid is one thing. Getting married because of it is just stupid.

I'm sure Johnny Mac will be holding the shotgun at this one.

"Hey mullet head...you'll marry this girl and you'll LIKE it!"

[K.C.]

what are you supposed to do when the closest one is 100 miles away?

Anal.

[epo]

I'm sure Johnny Mac will be holding the shotgun at this one.

"Hey mullet head...you'll marry this girl and you'll LIKE it!"

It's a good thing that Governor Palin is a member of the NRA, cuz it's gonna be a shotgun wedding!

[NewYorkDragons80]

Some guys want a family; some don't know what they want yet. That wasn't my objection to the kid. His statement about kicking ass was unnecessary and shows me he has some growing up to do. The swear words on the site also tell me he hasn't thought about his future in the workplace yet. He has a baby and a marriage coming, and he still has fuck on his page even after girlfriends Mom is picked for Veep candidate. Not the sharpest tool in the shed imo.
In his defense, the Myspace had not been touched in a year

[Ritalin]

In his defense, the Myspace had not been touched in a year

Wait, you're DEFENDING young Levi, Dragon?

Why the surprising change in point of view?

[NewYorkDragons80]

Wait, you're DEFENDING young Levi, Dragon?

Why the surprising change in point of view?
Well, 9/11 changed so many things for me...

[Freitag]

Some guys want a family; some don't know what they want yet. That wasn't my objection to the kid. His statement about kicking ass was unnecessary and shows me he has some growing up to do. The swear words on the site also tell me he hasn't thought about his future in the workplace yet. He has a baby and a marriage coming, and he still has fuck on his page even after girlfriends Mom is picked for Veep candidate. Not the sharpest tool in the shed imo.

Are you kidding me? He's 17, and probably going to college. If using cuss words are a measure of your ability to fit in at a workplace, then I have a major problem.

Another thing is, we don't know the last tiem he logged into the site. Some people set up a myspace account and forget it after a few months. A few of my friends have done that. This site could have been set up last year. We don't even know how long he was dating Bristol before/after the site was set up.

[A.J.]

Some guys want a family; some don't know what they want yet. That wasn't my objection to the kid. His statement about kicking ass was unnecessary and shows me he has some growing up to do. The swear words on the site also tell me he hasn't thought about his future in the workplace yet. He has a baby and a marriage coming, and he still has fuck on his page even after girlfriends Mom is picked for Veep candidate. Not the sharpest tool in the shed imo.

Are you kidding me? He's 17, and probably going to college. If using cuss words are a measure of your ability to fit in at a workplace, then I have a major problem.

He'd fit in just fine in my office. I work with sailors.

[Drunky McBetidont]

i knew the name was familiar. i am naming my next kid "molson"

http://www.lawineco.com/images/medium/harveys_cream_MED.jpg

[K.C.]

i knew the name was familiar.

At least it's not as bad as her brother Bisquick.

[Freitag]

Yeah, except there are only 4 Planned Parenthoods in AK, what are you supposed to do when the closest one is 100 miles away?

In Alaska, everything is 100 miles away!

Seriously - Wasilla to Anchorage is about 50 miles... and in the scope of things, 100 miles away is not that big of a deal for a well-off family. It's the equivalent of driving down to Atlantic City from Middlesex county in Jersey.

[BinaryBimbo]

Are you kidding me? He's 17, and probably going to college. If using cuss words are a measure of your ability to fit in at a workplace, then I have a major problem.

Another thing is, we don't know the last tiem he logged into the site. Some people set up a myspace account and forget it after a few months. A few of my friends have done that. This site could have been set up last year. We don't even know how long he was dating Bristol before/after the site was set up.

He has a family coming, and his future Mother in Law was just named a Veep Candidate. If he had his shit together he would have immediately thought what have I done that might hurt her in this race? He may not post there much; but he knows it's there, and he especially knew the media would find the page eventually. If he didn't think of the page then he is just an immature snot who has no business talking marriage and children.

We know Bristols page was taken down as soon as the pick was annouced; so it is not unreasonable to assume someone told him to make sure he didn't have any trash laying around.

It is well known these days that prospective employers often look for My Space/Facebook to find out who the 'real' person is; if he didn't think of this over the last three days then he is probably as dumb as his My Space comments make him out to be.

I am not saying that cussing is wrong, or shows immaturity; I'm saying leaving that up shows me he is probably a moron who doesn't get it. Of course getting the Governors Daughter pregnant shows he is not mature enough to be considered a man. Don't they hand out birth control and condoms at their school? It would be informative to know if they ever used contraception. No matter though - the kids aren't running for office; so this is all just academic.

[K.C.]

He has a family coming, and his future Mother in Law was just named a Veep Candidate. If he had his shit together he would have immediately thought what have I done that might hurt her in this race?

That kid doesn't strike me as that much of a...how should I say...'critical thinker.'

[Willmore]

I'm as liberal as they get, and nothing would please me more than see McCain or Palin do something that would automatically disqualify them from the race for the Presidency. But this smear campaign against her and her children is simply disgusting. I understand that the republicans would do the same if the reverse had happened, but there are some things that are below even politics.

[BinaryBimbo]

Here's a consensus blog entry that is widely circulating among the Right according to the NYT:
Several conservative Web sites circulated this post by Jeff Goldstein, who wove together on Protein Wisdom many of the themes that emerged today among Republicans in the wake of the Palins’ disclosure:

Many on the left will believe, quite mistakenly, that such an announcement is likely to weaken Palin’s support among “the hard-right conservative base”. But in fact, it will do no such thing — first, because the “hard-right conservative base” that liberal Democrats consistently invoke is largely a caricature that lives only in their minds and as a convenient trope in their rhetoric, from whence it can be trotted out as a foil and a boogeyman on cue; and second, because those energized over the choice of Palin include many disaffected libertarians and classical liberals who were, until the announcement of the Governor’s candidacy, set to either sit the election out, or else cast a protest vote for Bob Barr.

That the Palin family — by dint of ugly rumor mongering from “progressive activists” and a compliant left-leaning press that was cynically situating itself to pretend that these rumors “needed investigating” — was all but compelled to release information about their teenage daughter, is precisely the kind of thing that drives real civil libertarians and privacy advocates crazy, especially because the information has nothing whatever to do with Governor Palin’s candidacy, but instead invades the privacy (and quite possibly affects the “choice”) of a minor.

This kind of savage smear campaign by leftists and so-called “feminists” — a campaign that forced a young woman to make public a very private matter in order to stop vicious rumors about the Palin family — suggests that, when it comes to “privacy concerns” (NSA data mining for terrorists = bad; demanding the release of a Governor’s medical records = good; parental notification for abortions performed on women under a certain age = bad; insisting that the world be privy to the private sexual and family concerns of the seventeen-year-old daughter of a conservative = good), “progressives” care about such things only insofar as it protects their political interests and advances their political agenda.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/01/blogtalk-pregnant-pause/

The only people hurt by this talk is the young couple's reputations, and the Dems because of Democratic women whom decide that any woman who can raise 5 kids and be a Governor too is ready for the White House. Ask most women, and they will tell you that the hardest job in the world is child rearing.

[angrymissy]

In Alaska, everything is 100 miles away!

Seriously - Wasilla to Anchorage is about 50 miles... and in the scope of things, 100 miles away is not that big of a deal for a well-off family. It's the equivalent of driving down to Atlantic City from Middlesex county in Jersey.

I'm talking about birth control availability/funding in general, which JerseySean said was irrelevant, because you can just head over to PP to get condoms/BC for free.

[ChrisTheCop]

He has a family coming, and his future Mother in Law was just named a Veep Candidate. If he had his shit together he would have immediately thought what have I done that might hurt her in this race? He may not post there much; but he knows it's there, and he especially knew the media would find the page eventually. If he didn't think of the page then he is just an immature snot who has no business talking marriage and children.

We know Bristols page was taken down as soon as the pick was annouced; so it is not unreasonable to assume someone told him to make sure he didn't have any trash laying around.

It is well known these days that prospective employers often look for My Space/Facebook to find out who the 'real' person is; if he didn't think of this over the last three days then he is probably as dumb as his My Space comments make him out to be.

I am not saying that cussing is wrong, or shows immaturity; I'm saying leaving that up shows me he is probably a moron who doesn't get it. Of course getting the Governors Daughter pregnant shows he is not mature enough to be considered a man. Don't they hand out birth control and condoms at their school? It would be informative to know if they ever used contraception. No matter though - the kids aren't running for office; so this is all just academic.

He took the pot out of his school locker and hid it under his bed; wasnt that enough?

As the Palin camp has said, theyre both gonna have to grow up faster than they expected to. They werent mature enough to abstain. They werent mature enough to wear a condom. He wasnt mature enough to pull out. Why would we expect him to be mature enough to say, "Ok..how can I help this lady's campaign"? Perhaps someone in her camp, or McCain's shoulda 'helped' him help.

[BinaryBimbo]

That kid doesn't strike me as that much of a...how should I say...'critical thinker.'

Yeah That's my take as well; he simply is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

[ChrisTheCop]

I'm as liberal as they get, and nothing would please me more than see McCain or Palin do something that would automatically disqualify them from the race for the Presidency. But this smear campaign against her and her children is simply disgusting. I understand that the republicans would do the same if the reverse had happened, but there are some things that are below even politics.

Senator Barack Obama approves this message.

And yet...itll continue....

[JerseySean]

I'm talking about birth control availability/funding in general, which JerseySean said was irrelevant, because you can just head over to PP to get condoms/BC for free.

Why should our tax money have to pay for that?

[IMSlacker]

Why should our tax money have to pay for that?

Because it's cheaper than paying for unwanted babies.

[A.J.]

Why should our tax money have to pay for that?

So we can live vicariously through sexy teens having hot, hot sex.

[Freitag]

Why should our tax money have to pay for that?

because your tax money is paying for welfare, etc, instead?

Lot easier to be pro-active than have to deal with an issue for 18_ years. Both privately and part of the "system".

[Freitag]

So we can live vicariously through sexy teens having hot, hot sex.

god, does everyone want a new modquote?

[A.J.]

Because it's cheaper than paying for unwanted babies.

We pay for those too. It's called welfare.

[Jujubees2]

Here's a consensus blog entry that is widely circulating among the Right according to the NYT:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/01/blogtalk-pregnant-pause/

The only people hurt by this talk is the young couple's reputations, and the Dems because of Democratic women whom decide that any woman who can raise 5 kids and be a Governor too is ready for the White House. Ask most women, and they will tell you that the hardest job in the world is child rearing.

Yeah, but we're not talking about a stay-at-home mom here. My wife works full-time too and so we SHARE in the task of child rearing.

[IMSlacker]

We pay for those too. It's called welfare.

That's what I meant.

[A.J.]

That's what I meant.

Damn Spend-o-crats and their smell-fare!

[Freitag]

Yeah That's my take as well; he simply is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

...the teenage pregnancy didn't give that away?

[epo]

Why should our tax money have to pay for that?

To say this in the terms of republicans, ECONOMICS. And there are two major reasons why:

1. The net savings for government. It is simply cheaper for the government to invest in family planning services than it is it to help pay through social services programs for a poor child. Younger parents are more likely to be helped by the social safety net, hence the need to keep them out of the net in the first place.

2. Opportunity. Teen parents have a lower percentage of going to college and achieving in society. Sure there are "examples to the contrary", but realistically it makes the journey very difficult. And in this global economy, if you don't have the personal intellectual capital to offer an organization, you are nothing more than human capital. And since the corporations have devalued human capital, you are talking about artificially creating a low to low-middle class of people that could have done more.

[JerseySean]

To say this in the terms of republicans, ECONOMICS. And there are two major reasons why:

1. The net savings for government. It is simply cheaper for the government to invest in family planning services than it is it to help pay through social services programs for a poor child. Younger parents are more likely to be helped by the social safety net, hence the need to keep them out of the net in the first place.

2. Opportunity. Teen parents have a lower percentage of going to college and achieving in society. Sure there are "examples to the contrary", but realistically it makes the journey very difficult. And in this global economy, if you don't have the personal intellectual capital to offer an organization, you are nothing more than human capital. And since the corporations have devalued human capital, you are talking about artificially creating a low to low-middle class of people that could have done more.

I understand all that but lets stop pretending that teens are getting pregnant because they do not have access to birth control or condoms. Teenage couples get pregnant because, well they are stupid. I was dumb as a teen and dodged multiple bullets and I am sure everyone would agree with that.

[DarkHippie]

I understand all that but lets stop pretending that teens are getting pregnant because they do not have access to birth control or condoms. Teenage couples get pregnant because, well they are stupid. I was dumb as a teen and dodged multiple bullets and I am sure everyone would agree with that.

If they had birthcontrol they would be less likely to get pregnant.

They should just take it in the ass instead

[foodcourtdruide]

I understand all that but lets stop pretending that teens are getting pregnant because they do not have access to birth control or condoms. Teenage couples get pregnant because, well they are stupid. I was dumb as a teen and dodged multiple bullets and I am sure everyone would agree with that.

They definitely have access to birth control and condoms, but there has been a calculated attempt by groups in this country to make using birth control taboo.

And I was a dumb teen and never came CLOSE to getting someone pregnant, but not because I was mature or responsible.. mostly because I was fat.

[JerseySean]

If they had birthcontrol they would be less likely to get pregnant.

They should just take it in the ass instead

Birth control is easy to get. Very easy to get.

[epo]

Why should our tax money have to pay for that?

I understand all that but lets stop pretending that teens are getting pregnant because they do not have access to birth control or condoms. Teenage couples get pregnant because, well they are stupid. I was dumb as a teen and dodged multiple bullets and I am sure everyone would agree with that.

Since you understand that, you of all people should understand the logic of not only funding it, but promoting it. We can all agree that at some point kids are gonna fuck. So let's see our society evolve a bit and apply some logic to this situation.

[JerseySean]

Since you understand that, you of all people should understand the logic of not only funding it, but promoting it. We can all agree that at some point kids are gonna fuck. So let's see our society evolve a bit and apply some logic to this situation.

Yea but at what point is it not evolving, but detracting when we are promoting teen sex. People know where and how to get this stuff, kids just dont because they dont think.

[angrymissy]

Birth control is easy to get. Very easy to get.

Lets say you're a teenager living in one of these AK towns where the nearest Planned Parenthood is 100+ miles away.

Or in the midwest, even.

How do you propose they get birth control?

[mikeyboy]

Yea but at what point is it not evolving, but detracting when we are promoting teen sex. People know where and how to get this stuff, kids just dont because they dont think.

You assume kids are worldly. Many aren't, and they believe dumb shit like that you can't get pregnant if the girl is on top or down jumping jacks afterwards. Teaching about the proper use of birth control and making it easier to obtain does prevent some unwanted pregnancies.

[JerseySean]

You assume kids are worldly. Many aren't, and they believe dumb shit like that you can't get pregnant if the girl is on top or down jumping jacks afterwards. Teaching about the proper use of birth control and making it easier to obtain does prevent some unwanted pregnancies.

I have no problem teaching that to kids, but what do you want mail order birth control paid for by the federal govt?

[ChrisTheCop]

Yea but at what point is it not evolving, but detracting when we are promoting teen sex. People know where and how to get this stuff, kids just dont because they dont think.

The auto answer to that would be "fund sex education" and that may help to a degree, but in the end (no homo), teens are gonna have unprotected sex because it feels good and they have nothing to lose. Think about why YOU dont have unprotected sex, its not cause you know more, it's because you have too much to lose if something goes wrong...and even then you go ahead and do it when u feel comfortable with someone.

[epo]

Yea but at what point is it not evolving, but detracting when we are promoting teen sex. People know where and how to get this stuff, kids just dont because they dont think.

I think you might be letting emotion get into your thought process on this one. There is a pretty obvious correlation between teen pregnancies and states that don't fund/encourage thorough sex education programs. Certainly education can't be a bad thing.

And if we realize there is a problem, just telling teenagers "don't do it" as a solution doesn't seem to pass the smell test for a solution.

[JerseySean]

Lets say you're a teenager living in one of these AK towns where the nearest Planned Parenthood is 100+ miles away.

Or in the midwest, even.

How do you propose they get birth control?

At the doctors office

[JerseySean]

I think you might be letting emotion get into your thought process on this one. There is a pretty obvious correlation between teen pregnancies and states that don't fund/encourage thorough sex education programs. Certainly education can't be a bad thing.

And if we realize there is a problem, just telling teenagers "don't do it" as a solution doesn't seem to pass the smell test for a solution.

I am not promoting abstinence only. But the issue was govt paid for Yasmin or Neuvaring and I dont think that is necessary.

[angrymissy]

At the doctors office

Ok - how do they get an appointment without their parents knowing... or should they have to tell their parents if they want to get condoms? Because guess what, once they're told they have to tell their parents, they're just gonna fuck without it instead. Realities of life.

[Ritalin]

At the doctors office

Why?

If it were up to me there would be a big tub of condoms right inside the door of every high school in the country.

Courtesy of your Uncle Sam.

[angrymissy]

I am not promoting abstinence only. But the issue was govt paid for Yasmin or Neuvaring and I dont think that is necessary.

Would you rather pay for the years of welfare, Medicaid, etc with your taxes, or nuvaring?

[Freitag]

Ok - how do they get an appointment without their parents knowing... or should they have to tell their parents if they want to get condoms? Because guess what, once they're told they have to tell their parents, they're just gonna fuck without it instead. Realities of life.

You don't need a note or permission for condoms.

Just embarassment. Like that sketch in that flick with Arsenio Hall.

[JerseySean]

Ok - how do they get an appointment without their parents knowing... or should they have to tell their parents if they want to get condoms? Because guess what, once they're told they have to tell their parents, they're just gonna fuck without it instead. Realities of life.

You can buy condoms at a store no matter what age they are. Dont women get birth control from their gynocologist?

[JerseySean]

Would you rather pay for the years of welfare, Medicaid, etc with your taxes, or nuvaring?

Missy, youve spoken on this board about your personal situation. Respectfully, was that because you had no access to these or because you were young and dumb like we all were? I know thats personal but youve brought it up before so I hope I am not being out of line.

[A.J.]

Would you rather pay for the years of welfare, Medicaid, etc with your taxes, or nuvaring?

I'd rather not have to pay for other people's mistakes in life, period.

[epo]

You can buy condoms at a store no matter what age they are. Dont women get birth control from their gynocologist?

A 16 year old with a gynecologist? You can't be serious.

[JerseySean]

A 16 year old with a gynecologist? You can't be serious.

Girls go to gynos once puberty starts from my understanding. Can a chick verify this?

[KatPw]

Girls go to gynos once puberty starts from my understanding. Can a chick verify this?

Only if their parents allow it. I know women in their 30's that haven't gone, because their parents told them only women who are pregnant go to gyno's.

[JerseySean]

Only if their parents allow it. I know women in their 30's that haven't gone, because their parents told them only women who are pregnant go to gyno's.

Yea I knew chicks in high school who went. condoms are always available at CVS. It is not the lack of availability of birth control it is teens just not using good judgement.

[angrymissy]

Missy, youve spoken on this board about your personal situation. Respectfully, was that because you had no access to these or because you were young and dumb like we all were? I know thats personal but youve brought it up before so I hope I am not being out of line.

It wasn't due to no access to birth control, since I was using it at the time it happened.

I had access and I had the embarrassment of one of my parents friends seeing me walk into the Planned Parenthood office and mentioning it to them. I can only imagine how much worse it is in a smaller town where everyone knows each other. I sure as hell wish I could have gotten it through the school nurse instead.

There are areas of the country where a teen cannot obtain birth control for miles and miles. I was lucky enough to have a teacher I confided in that gave me taxi money to get to Planned Parenthood, then back to school. She probably would have gotten her ass fired if I told anyone. Not everyone has someone like that to help them

[epo]

Girls go to gynos once puberty starts from my understanding. Can a chick verify this?

Should they? Damn straight.

Do they? Meh.

The problem is essentially this. Percentage wise, the same people that can't afford to or refuse to have their daughter spend time with a gynecologist are often those that are most likely to have an unwanted pregnancy.

Maybe we are talking our way to some solutions here. How about:


Stronger sex education programs.
Programs to increase access for young women to gynecological programs.

I would bet good money you would see declines in unwanted teen pregnancies in areas that took these steps.

[angrymissy]

Girls go to gynos once puberty starts from my understanding. Can a chick verify this?

The first time most women I know saw a gyno was at Planned Parenthood on the sly. You only go if your parents send you, and most don't.

[Friday]

A 16 year old with a gynecologist? You can't be serious.

girls are getting their periods as early as 9 nowadays (that's when i got mine!)
my first appt with a gyno was when i was 13.

sorree, epo

[angrymissy]

Interestingly enough, we have a much higher teenage pregnancy rate than those countries who promote birth control.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_pre_percap-health-teenage-pregnancy-per-capita

#1 United States: 1,671.63 births per 1 million people
#24 Netherlands: 172.061 births per 1 million people

TEN TIMES more than the Netherlands. They start sex ed at 5.

Compulsory sex education in schools from the age of five, as being key to its success. While schools are free to design their own programmes, some of the most shocking initiatives have included condom demonstrations for 10 year olds, trips to sex shops for older teenagers, and cartoon videos on how to masturbate.

But advocates of the Dutch approach say the practical demonstrations are just a tiny part of their agenda, which encourages teens to discuss the moral and emotional implications of sex. Typical debates include reasons to have sex, what to say if a boy refuses to wear a condom and how to maintain self-respect.

[TheMojoPin]

I say we let Will Arnett travel the land in his Hummer with a Prius shell, dispensing abortions like some kind of Fetus Fairy.

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[JerseySean]

It wasn't due to no access to birth control, since I was using it at the time it happened.

I sure as hell wish I could have gotten it through the school nurse instead.

There are areas of the country where a teen cannot obtain birth control for miles and miles. I was lucky enough to have a teacher I confided in that gave me taxi money to get to Planned Parenthood, then back to school. She probably would have gotten her ass fired if I told anyone. Not everyone has someone like that to help them

Well a school nurse can not write perscriptions anyway so that is a non-issue. You are shifting to the abortion issue. As far as birth control, people can buy condoms anywhere. Me and my friends used to go into a store later at night and have lookouts for parents that we knew. Condoms are available now...everywhere

[angrymissy]

Well a school nurse can not write perscriptions anyway so that is a non-issue. You are shifting to the abortion issue. As far as birth control, people can buy condoms anywhere. Me and my friends used to go into a store later at night and have lookouts for parents that we knew. Condoms are available now...everywhere

I'm not talking about abortion. The visit to PP I'm talking about was for the first check up and birth control prescription. I'm saying that possibly as an alternative - get a nurse that can examine and write BC scripts in HS. Have condoms available at the nurses office. Why make it MORE difficult for teens to get contraception?

Look at the statistics - Sex Education and liberal access to contraception LOWERS TEEN PREGNANCY RATES.

[KatPw]

Yea I knew chicks in high school who went. condoms are always available at CVS. It is not the lack of availability of birth control it is teens just not using good judgement.

You have to take other things into consideration though. At 16, sex is embarrassing, regardless if you are having it or not. And if you live in a small town, where everyone knows you and works at the local stores, who is going to want to deal with buying condoms and knowing everyone you know will know? And don't even get me started on the guys that refuse to wear a condom because it doesn't "feel good". Some girls don't have the balls, or self esteem, to tell a guy to jerk off if they won't use a condom.
I'm not excusing the behavior, but we have to look at it from different angles.

[Freitag]

Interestingly enough, we have a much higher teenage pregnancy rate than those countries who promote birth control.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_pre_percap-health-teenage-pregnancy-per-capita

#1 United States: 1,671.63 births per 1 million people
#24 Netherlands: 172.061 births per 1 million people

TEN TIMES more than the Netherlands. They start sex ed at 5.

When does Pot ed start?

[JerseySean]

Should they? Damn straight.

Do they? Meh.

The problem is essentially this. Percentage wise, the same people that can't afford to or refuse to have their daughter spend time with a gynecologist are often those that are most likely to have an unwanted prenancy.

Maybe we are talking our way to some solutions here. How about:


Stronger sex education programs.
Programs to increase access for young women to gynecological programs.

I would bet good money you would see declines in unwanted teen pregnancies in areas that took these steps.

Look, I grew up in a middle class north Jersey town. Very conservative town and school board. We still had a great sex ed program. We learned about condoms, STDs birth control, etc. We were also taught, the only thing that is 100% safe is abstinance. I am fine with that. But the issue at hand here is whether the feds should do a Nuvaring by mail program. I say no. Also, a girl can get birth contol from her pediatrition.

[JerseySean]

You have to take other things into consideration though. At 16, sex is embarrassing, regardless if you are having it or not. And if you live in a small town, where everyone knows you and works at the local stores, who is going to want to deal with buying condoms and knowing everyone you know will know? And don't even get me started on the guys that refuse to wear a condom because it doesn't "feel good". Some girls don't have the balls, or self esteem, to tell a guy to jerk off if they won't use a condom.
I'm not excusing the behavior, but we have to look at it from different angles.

Those same girls that wouldnt tell a guy to jerk off, may also just say, hey scre it it cant happen to me

[A.J.]

At 16, sex is embarrassing, regardless if you are having it or not.

It's embarassing when you're pushing 40.

[KatPw]

It's embarassing when you're pushing 40.

I've become comfortable enough with myself that I can speak freely about sex. But I'm comfortable talking about pretty much anything. We are still very much a buttoned-up nation.

[TheMojoPin]

Look, I grew up in a middle class north Jersey town. Very conservative town and school board. We still had a great sex ed program. We learned about condoms, STDs birth control, etc. We were also taught, the only thing that is 100% safe is abstinance. I am fine with that. But the issue at hand here is whether the feds should do a Nuvaring by mail program. I say no. Also, a girl can get birth contol from her pediatrition.

Why are you against it? Cost? The estimated reduction in pregnancies and STD's and such from governmen same sex programs would save far more money in medical costs.

[JerseySean]

Why are you against it? Cost? The estimated reduction in pregnancies and STD's and such from governmen same sex programs would save far more money in medical costs.

The cost is unneccesary when there are good alternatives: CVS, Family Doctor, Gyno, Planned Parenthood. At least one of those four things are available to teens. Moreover, we will not change numbers until we change teens judgement.

[TheMojoPin]

The cost is unneccesary when there are good alternatives: CVS, Family Doctor, Gyno, Planned Parenthood. At least one of those four things are available to teens. Moreover, we will not change numbers until we change teens judgement.

But you're not going to "change teens' judgement" thyat drastically. Safe sex isn't being proposed to "fix" teen pregnancy and other sexual complications...it's proposed to lessen these problems. You're never going to get rid of them. And again, more money would be saved on pre-existing medical costs than what it would cost to promote and supply effective sex ed. It's unrealistic to look at it through sex ed or abstinence-only and think either can "fix" what's going wrong. It's a question of which can best help reduce the problems.

[KatPw]

Moreover, we will not change numbers until we change teens judgement.

This statement I do agree with. But in addition, we need to change the attitude of parents also. Of course no one wants to think of their precious snowflakes engaging in what can be considered dangerous behavior. But they do, and many parents are clueless about what is going on with their teens.

[angrymissy]

The cost is unneccesary when there are good alternatives: CVS, Family Doctor, Gyno, Planned Parenthood. At least one of those four things are available to teens. Moreover, we will not change numbers until we change teens judgement.

You can't assume that one of those 4 things is always available to teens.

Why not have condoms in the nurses office? How much does that really cost?

Again, Why make it harder? To punish teens for having sex? Take a look at those pregnancy rates in Holland vs. ours... providing easier access to birth control and sex ed at an earlier age only REDUCES teenage pregnancy.

[JerseySean]

You can't assume that one of those 4 things is always available to teens.

Again, Why make it harder? To punish teens for having sex? Take a look at those pregnancy rates in Holland vs. ours... providing easier access to birth control and sex ed at an earlier age only REDUCES teenage pregnancy.

Comparing the US to Holland is apples to oranges. Cant do it, demographics, culture, etc. Doesnt wash. Also you are telling me that there are places in this country where people dont have either a family doctor or a drug store? Are you kidding? There seems to be this myth that there are these poor girls in the middle of Nebraska who dont have a drug store in town or any doctors. The midwest girl has sex and gets pregnant. Her school never told her what to do and her parents are Christian conservatives who would disown her. That doesnt happen anymore. this is not 1944

[high fly]

I understand all that but lets stop pretending that teens are getting pregnant because they do not have access to birth control or condoms. Teenage couples get pregnant because, well they are stupid. I was dumb as a teen and dodged multiple bullets and I am sure everyone would agree with that.


There are areas in rural America where access to birth control is not as easy as one would think.

There is another factor.
The various methods of birth control have failure rates from a few to 10 percent or more.
When you apply that percentage to the millions of teens having sex over many year's time you come up with a lot of pregnancies that good faith efforts were made to prevent.

Back in college, I knew a guy who worked in a warehouse who thought it was funny to take a sewing needle and poke holes in packs of condoms, upping the failure rate.

[KatPw]

Comparing the US to Holland is apples to oranges. Cant do it, demographics, culture, etc. Doesnt wash.
It has nothing to do with demographics or culture. It has to do with attitudes. And attitudes can be changed.
And dude, do you know how big this fucking country is? It is huge, not everyone lives in a major city/suburb.

[angrymissy]

Comparing the US to Holland is apples to oranges. Cant do it, demographics, culture, etc. Doesnt wash.

Why not? Why not embrace some of the things they do that are successful? Why are we #1 in teenaged pregnancy in developed countries?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_pre_percap-health-teenage-pregnancy-per-capita

almost 3x Canada's rate.

[JerseySean]

Why not? Why not embrace some of the things they do that are successful? Why are we #1 in teenaged pregnancy in developed countries?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_pre_percap-health-teenage-pregnancy-per-capita

almost 3x Canada's rate.

Well lets start by understanding that there are a lot of people ages 18-19 who get married to this day in this country where it isnt as common in Europe.

[midwestjeff]

I just want to let you guys know that even in rural America
we have gas stations and other types of stores that sell condoms.
It's not 1875.

That's all. Carry on.

[JerseySean]

It has nothing to do with demographics or culture. It has to do with attitudes. And attitudes can be changed.
And dude, do you know how big this fucking country is? It is huge, not everyone lives in a major city/suburb.

I lived in a small town for a while in Parks, LA. I had gas stations and drug stores no more than 10 minutes away where I could have made these purchases. The "If These Walls Could Talk" myths do not still live today.

[KatPw]

How about, instead of putting all the responsibility on the girl, we hold guys truly responsible for half the mess. Eggs don't get fertilized on their own.

[angrymissy]

Well lets start by understanding that there are a lot of people ages 18-19 who get married to this day in this country where it isnt as common in Europe.

Nope. Excellent article below:

Differences in teenage pregnancy rates among five developed countries: The roles of sexual activity and contraceptive use

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3634/is_200111/ai_n8985223/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

Childbearing among unmarried adolescents has attracted policy attention because of potential consequences to the young women and their children, as well as to society. The measure, however, is defined differently across countries, with some classifying cohabiting teenagers as unmarried and others grouping married and cohabiting couples together, considering only those who are single as unmarried. In the latter case, cohabiting couples are often socially and legally considered the equivalent to married couples and their relationships are often long-term ones. In France and Sweden, half of adolescent births are to teenagers who are either married (17-18%) or cohabiting (33-35%). By comparison, 13% of adolescent births in Great Britain and 25% in the United States are to married teenagers

[JerseySean]

How about, instead of putting all the responsibility on the girl, we hold guys truly responsible for half the mess. Eggs don't get fertilized on their own.

Yes, I concur. the problem is that women are left with the aftermath while the guys can just leave. Lets be honest here.

[epo]

Well lets start by understanding that there are a lot of people ages 18-19 who get married to this day in this country where it isnt as common in Europe.

Although in this country:

Census Bureau Study Finds U.S. Couples Marry Later Than Before (http://www.yourweddingplace.com/news/news%20couples%20marry%20later.htm)

A Census Bureau study, using data from the American Community Survey from 2000 to 2003, has uncovered many differences in marriage habits of people in different regions of the country. Americans in Middle America tend to marry earlier than those on the East and West coasts.

"Later marriage is very strongly associated with higher levels of education," said David Popenoe, co-director of the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University.

In the last decade the median age for marriage has increased by one year to 26.7 years for men and 25.1 for women.

[Willmore]

Interestingly enough, we have a much higher teenage pregnancy rate than those countries who promote birth control.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_pre_percap-health-teenage-pregnancy-per-capita

#1 United States: 1,671.63 births per 1 million people
#24 Netherlands: 172.061 births per 1 million people

TEN TIMES more than the Netherlands. They start sex ed at 5.



USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!

We're #1!!!
We're #1!!!
We're #1!!!

USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!

[KatPw]

I lived in a small town for a while in Parks, LA. I had gas stations and drug stores no more than 10 minutes away where I could have made these purchases. The "If These Walls Could Talk" myths do not still live today.

Have you lived in Montana, where there are more cows than people? The Appalachian mountains? I found it funny that you mentioned Nebraska before. I know someone that lives out there. A store that sells more than milk and eggs is over an hour drive from her. I would not want to be a teen girl without a driver's license there.

[Willmore]

Yes, I concur. the problem is that women are left with the aftermath while the guys can just leave. Lets be honest here.

Well ... black women. Let's be honest.



j/k

[A.J.]

How about, instead of putting all the responsibility on the girl, we hold guys truly responsible for half the mess. Eggs don't get fertilized on their own.

"I take care of my kids."

[JerseySean]

Have you lived in Montana, where there are more cows than people? The Appalachian mountains? I found it funny that you mentioned Nebraska before. I know someone that lives out there. A store that sells more than milk and eggs is over an hour drive from her. I would not want to be a teen girl without a driver's license there.

OK How many people in this country live more than 20 minutes from a drug store. For the one Montanan teenager, should we change federal policy. Come on.

[angrymissy]

OK How many people in this country live more than 20 minutes from a drug store. For the one Montanan teenager, should we change federal policy. Come on.

Why make it harder for the 14 year old with no license to obtain a condom? Seriously, why make it harder. If even ONE unwanted pregnancy is prevented, it's worth it.

It works ALL OVER THE REST OF THE WORLD. Why are we so backwards when it comes to sex?

[JerseySean]

Why make it harder for the 14 year old with no license to obtain a condom? Seriously, why make it harder. If even ONE unwanted pregnancy is prevented, it's worth it.

It works ALL OVER THE REST OF THE WORLD. Why are we so backwards when it comes to sex?

Why should I fund this with my tax money for the one girl in Montana? why?

[epo]

OK How many people in this country live more than 20 minutes from a drug store. For the one Montanan teenager, should we change federal policy. Come on.

What if that one teenager was carrying baby Hitler?

You didn't think of that possibility, did you?

[JerseySean]

What if that one teenager was carrying baby Hitler?

You didn't think of that possibility, did you?

no and I now concede the point. You win.

[epo]

Why should I fund this with my tax money for the one girl in Montana? why?

Why should my federal tax dollars pay for your stupid road in New Jersey?

Oh yea....we're Americans and believe in the "greater good".

[epo]

no and I now concede the point. You win.

Note to self, always use baby Hitler as a trump card. haha!

[angrymissy]

Why should I fund this with my tax money for the one girl in Montana? why?

You think it's just one girl? You'd rather the one girl get knocked up instead?

It's not just one girl or one guy. There are tons of areas in our country where teens simply do not have easy access to birth control. Why make it harder? All that does is spread disease and promote teen pregnancy.

If you're so worried about your tax money - THE CONDOMS COST A LOT LESS THAN MEDICAID/WELFARE/FOOD STAMPS, etc. We're talking what, a quarter vs. thousands of dollars. It's win/win.

[A.J.]

Why should my federal tax dollars pay for your stupid road in New Jersey?

Oh yea....we're Americans and believe in the "greater good".

Because the road isn't the product of irresponsible behavior.

Well, unless you're a "bridge to nowhere".

[epo]

Because the road isn't the product of irresponsible behavior.

Well, unless you're a "bridge to nowhere".

Have you seen those savages in New Jersey drive? I shouldn't have to pay for that type of irresponsible driving!

[JerseySean]

Why should my federal tax dollars pay for your stupid road in New Jersey?

Oh yea....we're Americans and believe in the "greater good".

Actually we only get 51 cents on the dollar back. You have no argument. But my point is that there is such a slim number of these cases where birth control is not available ANYWHERE, that we shouldnt have to pay for Nuvaring. I have no problem paying for sex ed. Just not birth control.

[JerseySean]

You think it's just one girl? You'd rather the one girl get knocked up instead?

It's not just one girl or one guy. There are tons of areas in our country where teens simply do not have easy access to birth control. Why make it harder? All that does is spread disease and promote teen pregnancy.

If you're so worried about your tax money - THE CONDOMS COST A LOT LESS THAN MEDICAID/WELFARE/FOOD STAMPS, etc. We're talking what, a quarter vs. thousands of dollars. It's win/win.

Come on, tons of areas. Stop it. There are drug stores everywhere. EVERYWHERE!

[HBox]

In the future I am requiring my personal approval on any federal dollars spent. Please act accordingly.

Good day sirs and madams.

[angrymissy]

Come on, tons of areas. Stop it. There are drug stores everywhere. EVERYWHERE!

If you have a CAR, yes. Where my Aunt lives in Kansas for example, the closest area to buy ANYTHING is a 20 minute drive. I shit you not. I was in awe myself when I visited and told her I wanted to go out to get a pack of cigarettes and would be right back and they laughed at me.

Have you traveled through areas like Kansas, Nebraska, Montana, etc. Tons of areas where you cannot get squat without a car.

[TheMojoPin]

Actually we only get 51 cents on the dollar back. You have no argument. But my point is that there is such a slim number of these cases where birth control is not available ANYWHERE, that we shouldnt have to pay for Nuvaring. I have no problem paying for sex ed. Just not birth control.

Because medical costs would go down. It's not like there's no return on the investment. More money would be saved than spent. You'd be wasting less money than you are now.

[A.J.]

Have you seen those savages in New Jersey drive? I shouldn't have to pay for that type of irresponsible driving!

Fuck them and their immoral jug handles!

[JerseySean]

Because medical costs would go down. It's not like there's no return on the investment. More money would be saved than spent. You'd be wasting less money than you are now.

But people already have access to this stuff. Come on now.

[NewYorkDragons80]

You think it's just one girl? You'd rather the one girl get knocked up instead?

It's not just one girl or one guy. There are tons of areas in our country where teens simply do not have easy access to birth control. Why make it harder? All that does is spread disease and promote teen pregnancy.

If you're so worried about your tax money - THE CONDOMS COST A LOT LESS THAN MEDICAID/WELFARE/FOOD STAMPS, etc. We're talking what, a quarter vs. thousands of dollars. It's win/win.
I'm with you on this. I don't understand why there aren't more pro-life people who are standing up to say that access to condoms is the first line of defense. Abstinence is admirable, but unrealistic. I know the presumption is that it's the product of religious fervor, but if religion was the ultimate motivating factor, there wouldn't be premarital sex within these groups. The stigma attached to NARAL and Planned Parenthood is negative in most communities, religious or not. There should be another movement separate from Planned Parenthood, but with similar clout that promotes access to condoms and birth control.

[A.J.]

I'm with you on this. I don't understand why there aren't more pro-life people who are standing up to say that access to condoms is the first line of defense. Abstinence is admirable, but unrealistic. I know the presumption is that it's the product of religious fervor, but if religion was the ultimate motivating factor, there wouldn't be premarital sex within these groups. The stigma attached to NARAL and Planned Parenthood is negative in most communities, religious or not. There should be another movement separate from Planned Parenthood, but with similar clout that promotes access to condoms and birth control.

Because you can't apply logic to religion.

[angrymissy]

But people already have access to this stuff. Come on now.

Even living in metro NY - I was not able to get to Planned Parenthood for my BC appointment without the help of a teacher. It's not as easy as you make it seem, especially without a car.

[angrymissy]

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2005/01/18/

According to new nationally representative data published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, roughly one in five teenagers would have unsafe sex if their parents had to be notified when they got birth control at a family planning clinic. Researchers surveyed more than 1,500 female adolescents under age 18 seeking sexual health services, including contraception, at publicly funded family planning clinics in 33 states. They found that three in five had parents who already knew about their clinic visit--typically because teenagers told them or their parents suggested it. But among those whose parents were unaware, 70% would stop coming to the clinic, and a quarter would continue to have sex but would either rely on withdrawal or not use any contraception. Only 1% of all teens surveyed said they would stop having sex. Click here for more information.

[TheMojoPin]

But people already have access to this stuff. Come on now.

And this would make it easier and more effective and far more likely to be used. You say you don't want money to be wasted, but you have no problem with teenage pregnancy and STD's contributing to skyrocketing medical costs and often removing viable citiens from further education or even altogether from the workforce, thus minimizing or even negating their contributions to the economy. It's relatively a minimal cost for something simple for a huge gain. More money = more gooder, yes?

[KatPw]

I'm with you on this. I don't understand why there aren't more pro-life people who are standing up to say that access to condoms is the first line of defense.
I think it is because there are differing viewpoints even within the pro-life movement. I have come across quite a few very religious people that oppose all forms of BC, condoms included. In their mind, using a condom is an affront to God, because sex is for pro-creation only.

[BinaryBimbo]

Yeah, but we're not talking about a stay-at-home mom here. My wife works full-time too and so we SHARE in the task of child rearing.

Good point. I bet most women still do most of the housework, meals, laundry, and ferrying kids around to soccer practice, etc. But more men than ever before in our history, as far as I know, are heavily involved with the kids now a days.

[NewYorkDragons80]

I think it is because there are differing viewpoints even within the pro-life movement. I have come across quite a few very religious people that oppose all forms of BC, condoms included. In their mind, using a condom is an affront to God, because sex is for pro-creation only.
I'm not denying that that's a heavy part of it for some, but I think the fact that the same people asking for state-funding for BC also perform abortions. If you separate the two, you can get a lot more accomplished.

[angrymissy]

I'm not denying that that's a heavy part of it for some, but I think the fact that the same people asking for state-funding for BC also perform abortions. If you separate the two, you can get a lot more accomplished.

The sad thing is that most Planned Parenthoods don't perform abortions. In fact, it's a very small portion of what they do. It's a shame, because they do great things for teens when it comes to sexual health. Abortions only account for 3% of services delivered by them.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/AR_2007_vFinal.pdf (Page 6)

[HBox]

http://markhalperin.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/usweekly.jpg?w=360&h=235

That's.......... not good.

[K.C.]

http://markhalperin.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/usweekly.jpg?w=360&h=235

That's.......... not good.


Yeah...who'd of thunk Duchovny was a sex addict??

[epo]

From Time: (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html)

Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor.

I swear to God this woman is the gift that keeps on giving. I pray that she tried to ban dancing so I can call her "Footloose".

[Kevin]

From Time: (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html)



I swear to God this woman is the gift that keeps on giving. I pray that she tried to ban dancing so I can call her "Footloose".

Did McCain pick her as his VP, or did Obama?

I don't think Obama could have done a better job at picking McCains VP.

[CousinDave]

Wasn't Obama's mother an unwed teenager ?

[KnoxHarrington]

From Time: (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html)



I swear to God this woman is the gift that keeps on giving. I pray that she tried to ban dancing so I can call her "Footloose".

Yeah, that's the thing I'm seeing a lot of about her time as Mayor: she kept trying to get city government to move on these big social issues, when in a small town, you want council meetings to be about patching up the pothole on Main Street, not about whether life begins at conception.

I think she might energize the wacko fundie base, but everyone else is going to look at her and just think she's a nut.

[angrymissy]

Wasn't Obama's mother an unwed teenager ?

Wed teenager. Regardless, he's not the one trumping abstinence only education... and said he was born to an 18 year old and to respect their privacy.

[Kevin]

Wasn't Obama's mother an unwed teenager ?

If she was unwed, then his name would not be Obama..

[epo]

Did McCain pick her as his VP, or did Obama?

I don't think Obama could have done a better job at picking McCains VP.

Surprisingly enough, I'm sure that McCain picked Governor Footloose.

http://blogs.nypost.com/popwrap/photos/Footloose.jpg

[epo]

From Andrew Sullivan:

Well, you know: the press tends to ask for explanations. When, one wonders, will Palin conduct her first press interview?

Good question. So Governor Palin when are you gonna face the press?

[K.C.]

From Andrew Sullivan:


Good question. So Governor Palin when are you gonna face the press?


John King was asking every McCain surrogate this question during CNN's coverage of the non-convention last night.

None of them gave any hint to when the press can talk to her.

[epo]

From today's NY Times.... (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/us/politics/02vetting.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

Aides to Mr. McCain said they had a team on the ground in Alaska now to look more thoroughly into Ms. Palin’s background. A Republican with ties to the campaign said the team assigned to vet Ms. Palin in Alaska had not arrived there until Thursday, a day before Mr. McCain stunned the political world with his vice-presidential choice. The campaign was still calling Republican operatives as late as Sunday night asking them to go to Alaska to deal with the unexpected candidacy of Ms. Palin.

So NOT vetted thoroughly.

[GreatAmericanZero]

Mccain *collar fix*

[thejives]

Some maverick.

McCain wanted Lieberman (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/31/america/31reconstruct.php), but he caved to his party and went with a last minute, poorly vetted female governor he'd met once.

Not only did she have a teenage pregnancy in the family that everyone knew about, but as mayor she lobbied for $27 million for her tiny town of the very pork barrell spending McCain used to be against (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/01/AR2008090103148.html?nav%3Dhcmodule&sub=AR).

McCain has no control over his party, which was partying with lobbyists as Gustav landed (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Conventions/story?id=5699123&page=1), or his VP pick.

He's beyond out of touch.

[KnoxHarrington]

It looks like Governor Failin (http://cgi.fark.com/cgi/fark/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=3844557) follows the pro-life line of not really caring so much about babies after they're born. She used a line-item veto on the Alaska state budget to slash funding for teen mothers.

After the legislature passed a spending bill in April, Palin went through the measure reducing and eliminating funds for programs she opposed. Inking her initials on the legislation -- "SP" -- Palin reduced funding for Covenant House Alaska by more than 20 percent, cutting funds from $5 million to $3.9 million. Covenant House is a mix of programs and shelters for troubled youths, including Passage House, which is a transitional home for teenage mothers.

According to Passage House's web site, its purpose is to provide "young mothers a place to live with their babies for up to eighteen months while they gain the necessary skills and resources to change their lives" and help teen moms "become productive, successful, independent adults who create and provide a stable environment for themselves and their families."

Yeah, if you aren't a fetus or a vegetable, "pro-lifers" say you can just go screw.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/palin_slashed_funding_to_help.html?hpid=artslot

[celery]

This woman is not qualified to be the VP.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/006axc2aELE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/006axc2aELE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[thejives]

This woman is not qualified to be the VP.

And the person who chose her has poor judgement.

[GreatAmericanZero]

This woman is not qualified to be the VP.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/006axc2aELE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/006axc2aELE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

this was broadcasted on "the people with annoying voices network"


and thats me saying it

[JerseySean]

This woman is not qualified to be the VP.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/006axc2aELE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/006axc2aELE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Now do you not get what she was trying to say? Do you really not get it?

[scottinnj]

I mean, the conservative radio hosts are pouncing on any "she's not qualified" argument as mean-spirited.

Also, Gibson came up with something that sounds effective:

"She's been governing Alaska as long as Obama's been running for President"

And also the GOP has free reign over the media right now due to their Convention.

I'm just throwing it out there, be careful!

[thejives]

I mean, the conservative radio hosts are pouncing on any "she's not qualified" argument as mean-spirited.

Also, Gibson came up with something that sounds effective:

"She's been governing Alaska as long as Obama's been running for President"

And also the GOP has free reign over the media right now due to their Convention.

I'm just throwing it out there, be careful!

Point taken. But it's clear to me that McCain wanted Lieberman and caved to the right wing of the party. If he's president, he'll keep caving to the right wing.

[celery]

Now do you not get what she was trying to say? Do you really not get it?

No, I don't get it. Spin away. Whatever she's trying to say in the clip, it comes across incredibly poorly (especially in hindsight, now that she has the nomination).

Aside from this clip, she's not qualified to be President of the Senate, the President's chief advisor, and first in line to succeed the President in the event of his death.

It's just fucking insane, and I don't see how even hardcore Republicans can defend this.

[scottinnj]

Point taken. But it's clear to me that McCain wanted Lieberman and caved to the right wing of the party. If he's president, he'll keep caving to the right wing.

Ed Schultz said something that struck me first as nonsense, but after thinking about it, I think he may be on point.

He said that the conservatives are acting like she is running for president, not McCain. He is just the catalyst to get her in the White House.

Once he is elected, they will put pressure on him to fold up his tent after one term (they never really wanted him to be president anyway) and go full bore for a two-term Palin administration. That way the GOP and the conservative base can say they were the ones who got a woman in the White House first, they are the ones who truly respect women, blah blah blah blah blah.

[angrymissy]

Ed Schultz said something that struck me first as nonsense, but after thinking about it, I think he may be on point.

He said that the conservatives are acting like she is running for president, not McCain. He is just the catalyst to get her in the White House.

Once he is elected, they will put pressure on him to fold up his tent after one term (they never really wanted him to be president anyway) and go full bore for a two-term Palin administration. That way the GOP and the conservative base can say they were the ones who got a woman in the White House first, they are the ones who truly respect women, blah blah blah blah blah.

On some conspiracy/UFO/predictions website I read for shits and giggles, they are saying that McCain picked her specifically because her daughter is pregnant, then will initiate a campaign smearing her family looking like it's coming from the Dems, they will get so nasty that she will step down to "protect her family", he will nominate a new VP and the country will vote him in because they will be mad that the Dems attacked a woman and her family.

Oh and also, the world is going to end in 2012 and someone was abducted yesterday and given an alien book that levitates, but their camera phone is not working, so, no pics. :smoke:

[JerseySean]

No, I don't get it. Spin away. Whatever she's trying to say in the clip, it comes across incredibly poorly (especially in hindsight, now that she has the nomination).

Aside from this clip, she's not qualified to be President of the Senate, the President's chief advisor, and first in line to succeed the President in the event of his death.

It's just fucking insane, and I don't see how even hardcore Republicans can defend this.

She didnt make her argument properly but what she was trying to say is that she is used to being a hard worker, working for alaskans. Youre right it didnt come across properly but you know what she was trying to get across. Now if you say that failure to ccommunicate that point makes her not a good candidate, I can understand that as an argument. But you know what she was trying to say. all VPs have different roles. Spiro Agnew and Dan Quayle did nothing. Cheney is basically the Presidents Cheif of Staff, Johnson and Mondale were in charge of Cap hill. It depends on the role of the Veep

[scottinnj]

Now do you not get what she was trying to say? Do you really not get it?

I think she's trying to say "I'm a busy bee up here in Alaska, how much harder can the VP slot be?"

What she said was "What does the VP do all day, every day?"

President of the Senate.

Cheif Advisor to the President.

Head of the Cabinet.

Ambassador to the World.

[scottinnj]

Oh and also, the world is going to end in 2012 and someone was abducted yesterday and given an alien book that levitates, but their camera phone is not working, so, no pics. :smoke:

Until someone comes out of the spaceship in a flying car that has lasers, I don't want to hear about the anal probes.

[thejives]

Until someone comes out of the spaceship in a flying car that has lasers, I don't want to hear about the anal probes.

But once you see those flying laser cars ... let the anal probing begin!

[Ritalin]

It looks like Governor Failin (http://cgi.fark.com/cgi/fark/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=3844557) follows the pro-life line of not really caring so much about babies after they're born. She used a line-item veto on the Alaska state budget to slash funding for teen mothers.



Yeah, if you aren't a fetus or a vegetable, "pro-lifers" say you can just go screw.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/palin_slashed_funding_to_help.html?hpid=artslot

The Republican Party is broken, and it stands for nothing.

[scottinnj]

Some maverick.

McCain wanted Lieberman (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/31/america/31reconstruct.php).

That would have been a master stroke. He never would have gotten hardcore Christian Right voters, but it would have been an answer to Obama's "Yes We Can" slogan of bipartisanship, especially after hiring Biden as his attack dog.

Lieberman is hawkish on foreign policy, which would have won over a lot of moderate Republicans who were on the fence, and his left-of-center views on domestic social issues would have rounded up a sizable share of the truly despondant Hillary voters.

[scottinnj]

But once you see those flying laser cars ... let the anal probing begin!

Just gimme the keys and a test ride before I drop my pants.

[K.C.]

Has this been posted yet??

Sarah Palin addresses the 2008 Alaskan Independence Party Convention (the party dedicated to Alaskan secession from the United States)


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZwvPNXYrIyI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZwvPNXYrIyI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[angrymissy]

Has this been posted yet??

Sarah Palin addresses the 2008 Alaskan Independence Party Convention (the party dedicated to Alaskan secession from the United States)


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZwvPNXYrIyI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZwvPNXYrIyI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

WHAT THE HELL IS SHE WEARING

[thejives]

Has this been posted yet??

Sarah Palin addresses the 2008 Alaskan Independence Party Convention (the party dedicated to Alaskan secession from the United States)

Secession?
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/LPG/50003.jpg

[brettmojo]

WHAT THE HELL IS SHE WEARING
It's Alaska. Whatever it is it must be made from blubber.

[celery]

She didnt make her argument properly but what she was trying to say is that she is used to being a hard worker, working for alaskans. Youre right it didnt come across properly but you know what she was trying to get across. Now if you say that failure to ccommunicate that point makes her not a good candidate, I can understand that as an argument. But you know what she was trying to say. all VPs have different roles. Spiro Agnew and Dan Quayle did nothing. Cheney is basically the Presidents Cheif of Staff, Johnson and Mondale were in charge of Cap hill. It depends on the role of the Veep

Honestly, I'm still not sure what she's trying to say. I'm just stunned that she said it.

And comparing her to Spiro Agnew or Dan Quayle is really not going to help your argument.

[scottinnj]

Spiro Agnew and Dan Quayle did nothing.

Yeah they did.

Spiro Agnew resigned from office and pleaded no contest to bribery and tax evasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiro_Agnew#Resignation) in a plea deal to escape jail.

Dan Quayle set the conservative debate back 50 years.

[epo]

Turns out that Governor Palin had some iffy business dealings: (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/palin_scrubbing_car_wash.html)

ST. PAUL -- In addition to being a mayor and raising four children, Sarah Palin found time for another venture in her Wasilla years -- she was part-owner of an Anchorage car wash.

Palin and husband Todd each held a 20 percent stake in Anchorage Car Wash LLC, according to state corporation records filed in 2004.

A review of Palin's gubernatorial disclosure filings indicates that she failed to report her stake in the company on the form that requires candidates for governor to disclose any interest in a nonpublicly traded company.

Sure...but here is the good stuff:

A Feb. 11, 2007 letter to the governor's business partner advises that the car wash had "not filed its biennial report and/or paid its biennial fees," which were more than a year overdue.

On April 3, 2007, the state went further and issued a "certificate of involuntary dissolution" because of the car wash's failure to file its report and pay state licensing fees.

She might be a good ol' boy after all.

[Phil_Nubbs]

Whatever.


I wanna cum on her glasses.

[Recyclerz]

The Republican Party is broken, and it stands for nothing.

The same argument can be made about the Chinese Communist party and they remain in power. In fact, remaining in power and keeping taxes low on the ruling class are what the Republican Party stands for these days.

[A.J.]

http://markhalperin.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/usweekly.jpg?w=360&h=235

That's.......... not good.

Yeah...who'd of thunk Duchovny was a sex addict??

Duchovny...or Mikeyboy? I can't tell from here.

[GreatAmericanZero]

WHAT THE HELL IS SHE WEARING

it looks like something Martha Quinn would've worn in 1991.


Thats creepy that they have her talking about wanting Alaska to be it's own "Self-sufficient state" in 2008. Thats pretty UnAmerican. Actually, its the very definition of Un-American..its a governor not wanting her state to be part of America


Btw, I wouldn't give a shit if Alaska wasn't part of this country either, but I don't think the second most powerful person in the country should believe that the Alaskan Constitution is more important than the American Constitution (which she clearly clearly is saying in that youtube). In 2008 she said that? daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn

[epo]

If this thread proves anything, it proves the pick of Governor Sarah Palin for VP, while out of its mind silly in logic, does one thing. It's time for :

http://images.billoreilly.com/imagesproc/20262_H_SW350.jpg

That's right, the culture war is obviously back. (at least for 2 months) "Country First" my ass...that's the definition of politics first.

[Ritalin]

If this thread proves anything, it proves the pick of Governor Sarah Palin for VP, while out of its mind silly in logic, does one thing. It's time for :

http://images.billoreilly.com/imagesproc/20262_H_SW350.jpg

That's right, the culture war is obviously back. (at least for 2 months) "Country First" my ass...that's the definition of politics first.

Sweet! Culture War!

Let's start with Dan Quayle hammering Murphy Brown for having a child out of wedlock!

Oh, wait.

[epo]

She's the gift that keeps on giving:

Former Police Chief Says He Was Fired for Challenging Palin's Campaign Contributors (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5713866)

After taking over as Mayor of the small town of Wasilla, Palin fired the longtime local police chief. The former police chief, Irl Stambaugh says he was fired because he stepped on the toes of Palin's campaign contributors, including bar owners and the National Rifle Association.

Honestly, Senator McCain should have never picked her, or put her in the spotlight a month ago to get all of this out of the way. Instead of the message of the day be "Republicans are great"....the narrative is muddled at best.

[JerseySean]

She's the gift that keeps on giving:

Former Police Chief Says He Was Fired for Challenging Palin's Campaign Contributors (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5713866)



Honestly, Senator McCain should have never picked her, or put her in the spotlight a month ago to get all of this out of the way. Instead of the message of the day be "Republicans are great"....the narrative is muddled at best.

Mayor Palin has stated on several occasions that the National Rifle Association encouraged her to fire Chief Stambaugh because of his stance against the concealed weapons legislation," the lawsuit claimed.

Palin says she was up against entrenched insiders when she was elected mayor of Wasilla in 1996.

"We had a lot of people that were kind of dead wood," said Colleen Sullivan Leonard, a staff member in Palin's office. "We needed people with new energy and a new vision."

A federal judge later ruled the mayor, under city law, had the right to fire the police chief for any reason she wanted.

[epo]

Mayor Palin has stated on several occasions that the National Rifle Association encouraged her to fire Chief Stambaugh because of his stance against the concealed weapons legislation," the lawsuit claimed.

Palin says she was up against entrenched insiders when she was elected mayor of Wasilla in 1996.

"We had a lot of people that were kind of dead wood," said Colleen Sullivan Leonard, a staff member in Palin's office. "We needed people with new energy and a new vision."

A federal judge later ruled the mayor, under city law, had the right to fire the police chief for any reason she wanted.

But the narrative continues.

McCain or Palin got to define who she is before the pick. Let's face facts, the Democrats have done a great job of making their definition known and known quickly. That's one of the core reasons that hiding Governor Palin didn't make any damned sense.

[brettmojo]

I love the wanting to fire a librarian for not banning books.

[JerseySean]

But the narrative continues.

McCain or Palin got to define who she is before the pick. Let's face facts, the Democrats have done a great job of making their definition known and known quickly. That's one of the core reasons that hiding Governor Palin didn't make any damned sense.

Watch the media response by next week. It will be a complete 180 once she get in front of the people.

[KnoxHarrington]

On the night of her speech, "Troopergate" looks set to explode: the Public Safety Commissioner who says he felt pressured by Palin to fire a trooper she didn't like has given the AP some of the emails she sent. The hits:

The Post reported on its Web site that the e-mails were sent from Palin's personal Yahoo account. In one, dated Feb. 7, 2007, it says of the investigation of Wooten: "This trooper is still out on the street, in fact he's been promoted."

"It was a joke, the whole long 'investigation' of him," says the e-mail, sent giving Monegan permission to speak before a bill being heard by the Legislature. "This is the same trooper who's out there today telling people the new administration is going to destroy the trooper organization, and that he'd 'never work for that b '," Palin'.)"

The second e-mail was sent July 17, 2007, discussing a bill before lawmakers that would prevent the mentally ill from having guns.

The e-mail says the first thought "went to my ex-brother-in-law, the trooper, who threatened to kill my dad yet was not even reprimanded by his bosses and still to this day carried a gun, of course."

Palin has strongly denied that Monegan's dismissal had anything to do with her former brother-in-law. She said she never pressured the commissioner to fire her sister's ex-husband and no one from her office had complained about Wooten.

Umm, yeah, emails like that from the governor don't constitute "pressure".

But, of course, this is all "nonsense".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cvn_palin_troopergate;_ylt=ApGDtnfN3pSbnImibcsMcUy s0NUE

[epo]

So if Rove said this about Governor Tim Kaine: (http://www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=15333)

"With all due respect, again, to Governor Kaine, he's been a governor for three years. He's been able, but undistinguished. I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done. He was mayor of the 105th-largest city in America. And, again, with all due respect to Richmond, Virginia, it's smaller than Chula Vista, California, Aurora, Colorado, Mesa or Gilbert, Arizona, North Las Vegas, or Henderson, Nevada. It's not a big town. If he were to pick Governor Kaine, it would be an intensely political choice, where he's said, 'You know what? I'm really not first and foremost concerned with, is this person capable of being president of the United States? What I'm concerned about is, can he bring me the electoral votes of the state of Virginia, the 13 electoral votes in Virginia?'"

Then....how is Governor Palin qualified by Rove's rationale?

[KnoxHarrington]

Oh, by the way, the National Enquirer is apparently preparing to run a story alleging that Sarah Palin has had an affair.

http://rousehill.yourguide.com.au/news/world/world/general/palin-accused-of-steamy-extramarital-affair/1262904.aspx

So I suppose those of you who blasted the "MSM" for not wanting to touch the Edwards story right away when the Enquirer reported of his affair will want them to get to the bottom of this, right? Right?

[scottinnj]

Oh, by the way, the National Enquirer is apparently preparing to run a story alleging that Sarah Palin has had an affair.

http://rousehill.yourguide.com.au/news/world/world/general/palin-accused-of-steamy-extramarital-affair/1262904.aspx

So I suppose those of you who blasted the "MSM" for not wanting to touch the Edwards story right away when the Enquirer reported of his affair will want them to get to the bottom of this, right? Right?

Title of Article:
Palin accused of steamy extramarital affair
(http://rousehill.yourguide.com.au/news/world/world/general/palin-accused-of-steamy-extramarital-affair/1262904.aspx)

<----------*Intrigued and Aroused*:clap:

[TheMojoPin]

They can probably just blame the slow kid on the affair and talk about how it's "proof that God will have his vengeance upon those that fornicate in sin and it's a lesson we should all follow to respect family values" or some such shit and everyone will go "AAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, it's the same retarded logic that doesn't make her abstinence rhetoric look ridiculous in the face of what happened to her daughter! U-S-A! U-S-A!" and the horrible fucking nightmare this country is becoming will just get even worse.

I'm done dealing with even the idea of this person being a heartbeat away from the presidency as anything less than BATSHIT CRAZY. Her being the VP is a fucking insult to me and everyone else in this country. It just solidifies how little the GOP thinks of us all. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm moving into my bunker hundreds of feet below the earth, and anyone coming near the entrance is getting a face full of buckshot.

[angrymissy]

I'm done dealing with even the idea of this person being a heartbeat away from the presidency as anything less than BATSHIT CRAZY. Her being the VP is a fucking insult to me and everyone else in this country. It just solidifies how little the GOP thinks of us all. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm moving into my bunker hundreds of feet below the earth, and anyone coming near the entrance is getting a face full of buckshot.

Never have I wanted to use the dreaded clappy hands more. Insult is the exact right word.

[yojimbo7248]

They can probably just blame the slow kid on the affair and talk about how it's "proof that God will have his vengeance upon those that fornicate in sin and it's a lesson we should all follow to respect family values" or some such shit and everyone will go "AAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, it's the same retarded logic that doesn't make her abstinence rhetoric look ridiculous in the face of what happened to her daughter! U-S-A! U-S-A!" and the horrible fucking nightmare this country is becoming will just get even worse.

I'm done dealing with even the idea of this person being a heartbeat away from the presidency as anything less than BATSHIT CRAZY. Her being the VP is a fucking insult to me and everyone else in this country. It just solidifies how little the GOP thinks of us all. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm moving into my bunker hundreds of feet below the earth, and anyone coming near the entrance is getting a face full of buckshot.

Well put. I feel exactly the same way. All of this "she knocked the ball out of the park with her speech", "NOW we get why McCain chose her...". She is a religious fanatic with seriously ignorant or at best misguided beliefs. This is not a fucking Christian nation and she has no more right to be in a leadership role in our nation and push her neanderthal beliefs on us than any other religious fundamentalist. At least with Hasidic Jews, Sikhs, Zoroastorians, etc., they keep their beliefs to themselves and would never run for national leadership position. What bothers me the most about evangelicals is they think this is their country and we as Americans should respect and live by their ideas about abortion, gays, war against Islam, abstinence.

[angrymissy]

Well put. I feel exactly the same way. All of this "she knocked the ball out of the park with her speech", "NOW we get why McCain chose her...". She is a religious fanatic with seriously ignorant or at best misguided beliefs. This is not a fucking Christian nation and she has no more right to be in a leadership role in our nation and push her neanderthal beliefs on us than any other religious fundamentalist. At least with Hasidic Jews, Sikhs, Zoroastorians, etc., they keep their beliefs to themselves and would never run for national leadership position. What bothers me the most about evangelicals is they think this is their country and we as Americans should respect and live by their ideas about abortion, gays, war against Islam, abstinence.

It's scary. It seriously scares me. I don't want to be in a country where extreme religious beliefs are legislated. For the way they rail against Muslim countries, we're headed down the same path...

[epo]

It's scary. It seriously scares me. I don't want to be in a country where extreme religious beliefs are legislated. For the way they rail against Muslim countries, we're headed down the same path...

Hence the irony of the War on Terror being dubbed a "holy war". Frightening shit.

[angrymissy]

Hence the irony of the War on Terror being dubbed a "holy war". Frightening shit.

Sarah Palin said the Iraq War was a "Task from God".


PRAY FOR A GAS LINE! GOD WILL BRING IT TO US!:
PRAY FOR GUNS!
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Who are the crazy religious terrorists now?

[epo]

Sarah Palin said the Iraq War was a "Task from God".

PRAY FOR A GAS LINE! GOD WILL BRING IT TO US!:
PRAY FOR GUNS!

Who are the crazy religious terrorists now?

To say that we are religious terrorists is a bit of hyperbole, but this is the dumbest way we can approach this situation.

That's why the right wing may not like this line, but the greater "war on terror" must be something that we "prosecute". To use religious rhetoric is only engaging religious extremists and "proving their point".

[angrymissy]

To say that we are religious terrorists is a bit of hyperbole, but this is the dumbest way we can approach this situation.

That's why the right wing may not like this line, but the greater "war on terror" must be something that we "prosecute". To use religious rhetoric is only engaging religious extremists and "proving their point".

I don't seriously think we are religious terrorists, but we are edging closer and closer to the very same thing we are supposedly fighting against.

[epo]

I don't seriously think we are religious terrorists, but we are edging closer and closer to the very same thing we are supposedly fighting against.

We're on the same page.

To win a war of "freedom" under the umbrella of "morals" then we must be the most "free" and "moral" pricks on the plan under our system of government. To change our system of government (FISA) to make our people less free is a loss. To change our moral standards (torture) is a loss.

We really do look like the dumb jock in high school sometimes.

[angrymissy]

We're on the same page.

To win a war of "freedom" under the umbrella of "morals" then we must be the most "free" and "moral" pricks on the plan under our system of government. To change our system of government (FISA) to make our people less free is a loss. To change our moral standards (torture) is a loss.

We really do look like the dumb jock in high school sometimes.

I believe in Fred Thompson's speech, he said something like "We all know people called John McCain a troublemaker at the naval academy, but he was actually the LEADER of the troublemakers" to raucous applause.

So yeah, they want to basically elect the dumb jock. The leader of the dicks. Great.