Immigration Battle 2009-10

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This has been a very hot topic especially with the economic downturn. There are a lot of people who want Jobs going to Americans and a lot of resentment towards illegal immigrants. In 2007 The bill , supported by Bush McCain and Kennedy was defeated. It looks like They want to get something passed this year, In my opinion it looks like it wont be easy

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hrL7yuyUVclkim1xKb98eQ35qHxQD99AHR5G0

[LordJezo]

Yay amnesty!

[TheMojoPin]

Despite the economy, most Americans still wouldn't even consider trying to get most of the jobs "stolen" by illegals.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Despite the economy, most Americans still wouldn't even consider trying to get most of the jobs "stolen" by illegals.

I think if they continue with E Verify the employers will have to hire American workers. Also there have been a lot of raids not only going after the illegals but the employers of them as well. The employers want cheap labor and to increase their bottom line.

[TheMojoPin]

I think if they continue with E Verify the employers will have to hire American workers. Also there have been a lot of raids not only going after the illegals but the employers of them as well. The employers want cheap labor and to increase their bottom line.

My point is that even if you clear the illegals out most Americans are still going to look at those jobs as beneath them. It's not like illegals are taking up a plethora of jobs that Americans are clamoring to get. We'd have to be repeating the Great Depression before you get people wishing they could get those snazzy jobs scrubbing toilets.

[Dude!]

My point is that even if you clear the illegals out most Americans are still going to look at those jobs as beneath them. It's not like illegals are taking up a plethora of jobs that Americans are clamoring to get. We'd have to be repeating the Great Depression before you get people wishing they could get those snazzy jobs scrubbing toilets.

true
we need them

i just wish we would
do it in an orderly manner

get someone to vouch for them
and give them a health test
and then learn english

then come on in amigo

[epo]

We've never had an "immigration problem" in this nation....

http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens1956481module40156252photo_1245048244Hel p_Wanted_-_No_Irish_Need_Apply.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

true
we need them

i just wish we would
do it in an orderly manner

get someone to vouch for them
and give them a health test
and then learn english

then come on in amigo

Do you think an ellis island type of process would work at the Border? That might seem reasonable

[TripleSkeet]

Despite the economy, most Americans still wouldn't even consider trying to get most of the jobs "stolen" by illegals.

No, theyd want them, but theyd want to get paid 5 times the pay. Its ridiculous. These immigrants provide a service thats makes it affordable to regular people. You think people would pay landscapers to do their lawn for 5 times what they pay now??? No way.

[TheMojoPin]

No, theyd want them, but theyd want to get paid 5 times the pay. Its ridiculous. These immigrants provide a service thats makes it affordable to regular people. You think people would pay landscapers to do their lawn for 5 times what they pay now??? No way.

That too.

[cougarjake13]

theres too many of them here to completely get rid of them



just get them to pay taxes

[Recyclerz]

theres too many of them here to completely get rid of them

just get them to pay taxes

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you're going to bumpersticker this issue, then this.

I understand the economic argument that seemingly endless supplies of labor from south of the Rio Grande push down the market wage for "low skill" jobs, hurting the native born working poor in this country.

I understand the legal argument that a nation has to have control of its borders and to be able to enforce its laws in order for it to be considered sovereign. (Although the real reason that this immigration is illegal is that the legal quotas for Latin Americans to get into the US is set ridiculously low for political reasons.)

I even understand (sort of) the cultural argument that the nature of the US could be altered if there is a large influx of people whose primary ambition is not to assimilate into the broader culture (eg. use English as their primary language) even though I think these fears are misplaced.

But the fact remains that one of the few effective tools we'll have to solve (partially) the demographic and economic problems of the US is to get the ambitious workers from the rest of the world to move here and start paying taxes, especialy if a VAT is in our future (which is likely). So learn a li'l espanol mis amigos if you don't expect to be living on the moon in 15 years, that is.

[NickyL0885]

Illegal immigration is ruining the country. Soon, its going to be a requirement to know both english and spanish to get jobs. I'm all for people wanting to come here but please, come in the right way and learn the language. Speaking of the language, why haven't we made english the official language of this country yet?

[NickyL0885]

Also, I don't get all these immigrants who come here to leave the oppression they face back at home, yet when their home country does something good they whip out their countries flag and start waving it.

[DolaMight]

go irish!

[keithy_19]

go irish!

I was driving the afternoon when the American soccer team lost to Brazil. People in the car in front of me were waving the flag of Brazil from their car. They have every right to do this, but it kind of pissed me off.

I have no problem with people being proud of their ancestry. Parades to celebrate your culture don't bother me in the least. But when it comes down to America and the country that you fled or just have some loose ties too, go with the country you're living in.

Maybe that's just me. I know I would never fly a Polish flag if they beat the US in anything, or an Irish flag.

[epo]

theres too many of them here to completely get rid of them

just get them to pay taxes

Actually illegals are the only segment of the population that the government makes money on. The rest of you people find ways to avoid your taxes AND you use the services the government offers.

[Gvac]

I don't understand why so many people are still leaving their homelands to come here.

All of our jobs are over THERE.

[epo]

Illegal immigration is ruining the country. Soon, its going to be a requirement to know both english and spanish to get jobs. I'm all for people wanting to come here but please, come in the right way and learn the language. Speaking of the language, why haven't we made english the official language of this country yet?

Just like we all had to speak Chinese in the 1900's?
Or how the stores only carry potatoes because of the Irish?
Remember when the Jews stole all of our money?

Just stop.

[keithy_19]

Just like we all had to speak Chinese in the 1900's?
Or how the stores only carry potatoes because of the Irish?
Remember when the Jews stole all of our money?

Just stop.

Just wait. Those Chinese are a sneaky people. Over a hundred years of planning.

And the Irish and Jews are white. They're good.



:dry:

[TripleSkeet]

Just like we all had to speak Chinese in the 1900's?
Or how the stores only carry potatoes because of the Irish?
Remember when the Jews stole all of our money?

Just stop.

I dont get it.

[Recyclerz]

Just wait. Those Chinese are a sneaky people. Over a hundred years of planning.

I heard these earthquakes they're having are dress rehearsals for their plan to all jump up and down at the same so as to flood California with a tsunami.

And the Irish and Jews are white.

Are they? I say pink and tan, respectively, at best.

[Friday]

I don't understand why so many people are still leaving their homelands to come here.

All of our jobs are over THERE.

this statement doesn't make a bit of sense.

most large customer service outlets are now outsourced in countries like India, where the education is good and English is a big part of their curriculum...

yes, there are a good deal of immigrants coming from India to our country, but most of them are in the medical profession.

The immigrants addressed in this thread are mostly of hispanic descent... and come from places where poverty is rampant, education is not a priority, and drug cartels have taken over.


And until the St. Patty's day parades stop happening... I am going to go ahead and say that any one person can go ahead and cheer for their favorite country in a World Cup type of sporting event.

After all.... this place was founded on diversity.

[jauble]

I was driving the afternoon when the American soccer team lost to Brazil. People in the car in front of me were waving the flag of Brazil from their car. They have every right to do this, but it kind of pissed me off.

I have no problem with people being proud of their ancestry. Parades to celebrate your culture don't bother me in the least. But when it comes down to America and the country that you fled or just have some loose ties too, go with the country you're living in.

Maybe that's just me. I know I would never fly a Polish flag if they beat the US in anything, or an Irish flag.

Thats because the Poles made their flag out of cast iron so the wind wouldnt make it look funny.

[keithy_19]

Thats because the Poles made their flag out of cast iron so the wind wouldnt make it look funny.

Oh that's just silly. It's made out of sand, you nitwit.

[keithy_19]

How am I Jezo? My statement was full of sarcasm you foolish messageboard observers.

Except for the first one. The flag flying did rub me the wrong way.

[foodcourtdruide]

Read a pretty interesting article regarding ICE (why do they have such a cliche' 80's movie acronym name?) raids in LI and NJ:

http://www.1010wins.com/Report--NY--NJ-Immigration-Raids-Violated-Rights/4851992

I feel like this is the typical, "oh, this will not effect me, so why should I care?"

ICE agents being allowed to bust into peoples homes without consent, or a judicial warrant scares me. Thankfully, there are still sane people in this country that are fighting for all of our rights and do not simply disregard the constitution because of the stigma of "illegal immigrant".

Here's what the report suggests, I think it's reasonable, except for the last part:

The report makes several recommendations, including limiting the use of home raids to a last resort for targets who pose a serious risk to national security or have violent criminal records; the use of judicial rather than administrative warrants, and the videotaping of all home raids.

If the first two things happen, I think the videotaping would be pointless.

[Serpico1103]

No, theyd want them, but theyd want to get paid 5 times the pay. Its ridiculous. These immigrants provide a service thats makes it affordable to regular people. You think people would pay landscapers to do their lawn for 5 times what they pay now??? No way.

So, the employer has to pay. If the consumer doesn't want to buy the product, they don't. Many factors make products more expensive; child labor laws, insurance, safety regulations. But, we don't get rid of them to make cheaper products.

If lettuce all of sudden becomes very expensive, than so be it. Lettuce is now a delicacy. The government could always subsidize necessary food, they way it does now with unnecessary food.

Americans don't want those jobs because employers can pay aliens less. Americans also wouldn't work in a coal mine without safety equipment.

The only one truly benefiting from illegal labor are the employers.

[earthbrown]

But they cant, BECAUSE THEY'RE DEAD!


This is just one of many cases of the immigration policies in this country FAILING law abiding citizens.

This scumbag should have been deported years ago.

You'll recall Ramos, an illegal immigrant, was never turned over to federal authorities after being picked up on other charges as a teenager. That policy has since been reversed by Newsom - and now undocumented youth are turned over when they're arrested for felonies - but the issue is expected to be a big one in the mayor's campaign for governor.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/cityinsider/detail?entry_id=47645

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Ramos


K

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Another drunken illegal driving. I know that there are many Americans who do this, but in Suburban NYC, this has gotten out of control. Many illegals are illiterate in 2 languages, having them drive with no license or insurance is dangerous

The owner of the diner where he works must be accountable for hiring this dirtbag

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090917/NEWS02/909170373&s=d&page=2#pluckcomments

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What bothers me about the illegals is that they should work to improve their own countries. The blacks struggled to become free and for their civil rights. They didnt illegally immigrate to Canada

It might not sound PC but illegal means illegal, people can not pick and choose what laws to follow without the risk of being caught. Amnesty was tried in 1986 and has spiraled out of control

[TheMojoPin]

What bothers me about the illegals is that they should work to improve their own countries. The blacks struggled to become free and for their civil rights. They didnt illegally immigrate to Canada

It might not sound PC but illegal means illegal, people can not pick and choose what laws to follow without the risk of being caught. Amnesty was tried in 1986 and has spiraled out of control

Oh my.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh my.

Delicious.

[Ritalin]

Oh my.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh my.

Delicious.

(not for nothing, but that comes off a little gay)

[TheMojoPin]

Good.

[earthbrown]

another fine immigrant.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan_clubgoer_abducted_and_ZHiWOmGODLx1SZRuaJ VyaL



K

[EliSnow]

another fine immigrant.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan_clubgoer_abducted_and_ZHiWOmGODLx1SZRuaJ VyaL



K

Wow, there are bad immigrants out there. If only we didn't have illegal immigrants, there would be no bad people.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

another fine immigrant.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan_clubgoer_abducted_and_ZHiWOmGODLx1SZRuaJ VyaL



K

The law needs to be changed so that immigrants, legal/illegal can not be set free on bail. Many jump bail and go back to their own countries or take another identity. Illegal aliens, many of them use different names all the time

Anyone who doesnt think that illegal immigration isnt such a problem should take a drive about an hours north of NYC to Brewster. All day long hundreds of men lining the street, loitering, drinking and urinating in public, harassing women on their way to the train. Overcrowded houses, the constant drinking and fighting amongst roommates in the flophouses, that town along with many others in Westchester and Putnam counties have become decimated by the lower quality of life and the ever increasing property taxes due to the illegal aliens. Now that the gravy train is over, Ive nticed a lot of them loitering along the I 95 entrance on State Street in Stamford, The city built porta potties for the illegals under the overpass on Lafayette St and they still "water" the grass, the cops have their hands tied because all day they shoe them along to their designated area but they still loiter

[TheMojoPin]

So you're posting this because you think, what, people here support letting illegals off for something like this? That the crime rate would decrease if illegals weren't here? What precisely are you "proving" with this route? What are the arguments you are countering here?

[foodcourtdruide]

So you're posting this because you think, what, people here support letting illegals off for something like this? That the crime rate would decrease if illegals weren't here? What precisely are you "proving" with this route? What are arguments are you countering here?

I think you know the answers to all these questions already. He's having a pretend debate with someone saying that illegal immigrants never commit any crimes.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So you're posting this because you think, what, people here support letting illegals off for something like this? That the crime rate would decrease if illegals weren't here? What precisely are you "proving" with this route? What are arguments are you countering here?

The crime rate would decrease, there wouldnt be all these people driving drunk without license registration or insurance, there wouldnt be overcrowding in houses which is in violation of building codes, loitering would diminish

All these claims that illegals commit less crimes than Americans is false. They are committing a crime every second they are here, on top of immigration violation, many are evading taxes, driving with no license, working illegally, committing welfare fraud, many committed identity theft, the ones paying Social Sec taxes are using phony SSNs. Theres a whole bunch of crimes right there

[foodcourtdruide]

The crime rate would decrease, there wouldnt be all these people driving drunk without license registration or insurance, there wouldnt be overcrowding in houses which is in violation of building codes, loitering would diminish

All these claims that illegals commit less crimes than Americans is false. They are committing a crime every second they are here, on top of immigration violation, many are evading taxes, driving with no license, working illegally, committing welfare fraud, many committed identity theft, the ones paying Social Sec taxes are using phony SSNs. Theres a whole bunch of crimes right there

The crimes you mention above are the not the crimes that (some/most?) opponents of illegal immigrants try to paint them as committing and you know it. If anything, your points strengthen the argument for legalizing them so the legal system doesn't have to be bogged down with such absurdity.

EDIT: I guess I didn't read it close enough, you do make some of those claims hardcore opponents have. What evidence do you have that illegal immigrants drive drunk more than citizens? Again, if the path citizenship was changed wouldn't they commit less identity theft? work illegally less? drive with licenses less, etc?

What's your goal with your posts? To crap on illegal immigrants or improve the system?

[TheMojoPin]

The crime rate would decrease, there wouldnt be all these people driving drunk without license registration or insurance, there wouldnt be overcrowding in houses which is in violation of building codes, loitering would diminish

Prove it.

All these claims that illegals commit less crimes than Americans is false.

Who is arguing that here? Being an illegal immigrant is in and of itself technically a crime, automatically debunking such a ridiculous argument from the getgo.

PS - Are you an old lady? Who the fuck sits around worrying about loitering?

[EliSnow]

All these claims that illegals commit less crimes than Americans is false. They are committing a crime every second they are here, on top of immigration violation, many are evading taxes, driving with no license, working illegally, committing welfare fraud, many committed identity theft, the ones paying Social Sec taxes are using phony SSNs. Theres a whole bunch of crimes right there

Those are not the crimes that earthbrown is pointing out. He's pointing out crimes that are violent or lead to violent actions, as if all immigrants commits such things, and no one else does.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Prove it.



Who is arguing that here? Being an illegal immigrant is in and of itself technically a crime, automatically debunking such a ridiculous argument from the getgo.

PS - Are you an old lady? Who the fuck sits around worrying about loitering?

Most illegal aliens have no insurance license or registration, there was a DWI a couple of months ago in NY when a drunk Guatemalan mowed down a mother and daughter it was his employers car, many use their employers cars. As I have always stated, the employer needs to be held accountable as well

Also a huge majority of illegals are illiterate in 2 languages, they can not read the signs

I dont know where you live so maybe its not a problem where you are. Why is it when teenagers skateboarding in front of a store the cops shoe them away, but when 20 men are drinking all day waiting to get picked up the cops can't do anything without some special interest group comes out of the woodwork crying discrimination?

[TheMojoPin]

I dont know where you live so maybe its not a problem where you are. Why is it when teenagers skateboarding in front of a store the cops shoe them away, but when 20 men are drinking all day waiting to get picked up the cops can't do anything without some special interest group comes out of the woodwork crying discrimination?

Gee, I wonder why anyone wants the guys willing to paid shit waiting around to get paid shit to do necessary work. Let me rack my brain on this one here....

It has nothing to do with "special interest groups" and everything to do with the wonderful world of free market capitalism, YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW!!!

[earthbrown]

The crime rate would decrease, there wouldnt be all these people driving drunk without license registration or insurance, there wouldnt be overcrowding in houses which is in violation of building codes, loitering would diminish

All these claims that illegals commit less crimes than Americans is false. They are committing a crime every second they are here, on top of immigration violation, many are evading taxes, driving with no license, working illegally, committing welfare fraud, many committed identity theft, the ones paying Social Sec taxes are using phony SSNs. Theres a whole bunch of crimes right there

many of the crimes are crimes on society, the really bad ones are the ones where illegals kill, rape, assault, or rob someone. That is a crime that would not have been committed had they not moved or come here illegally.

I know we cannot stop all the illegal immigration, but atleast build a fucking fence, at least give it a go.

I would want the person out on bail, if anyone ever raped or molested any of my children, their life would end, regardless of the criminal penalties that I would incur. I believe that with the right lawyer, any parent could beat a charge of murder on a person who raped or molested your child.

Another point is this girl should have been a little more careful when it came to her drinking, I am a man and will not get that drunk in public, it is dangerous. She is partly to blame, unless she was drugged with GHB or similar. You are responsible for reasonably securing your on safety, there are things you can do to make yourself a target of crime.

K

[Kublakhan61]

The owner of the diner where he works must be accountable for hiring this dirtbag


Remember when Tyson Foods was acquitted for hiring undocumented workers even though they made a deal to buy 500 Undocumented Mexicans over4 years on tape from a federal agent? They were acquitted. Their defense was - it's too difficult to know who's legal and who's illegal.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Gee, I wonder why anyone wants the guys willing to paid shit waiting around to get paid shit to do necessary work. Let me rack my brain on this one here....

It has nothing to do with "special interest groups" and everything to do with the wonderful world of free market capitalism, YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW!!!

Capitalism yes, but not lawlessness

We already have laws on the books going back to Simpson Mazzoli making it illegal to hire them.

[TheMojoPin]

"WRESTLINGFAN is againt immigration because he knows he and the pussy American wrestlers he loves cannot stand up to the might of my unstoppable curry-power!"

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii158/Daniel_Sedin_22/curryman.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Remember when Tyson Foods was acquitted for hiring undocumented workers even though they made a deal to buy 500 Undocumented Mexicans over4 years on tape from a federal agent? They were acquitted. Their defense was - it's too difficult to know who's legal and who's illegal.

The E Verify system is one of the most effective ways to prove whos legal or illegal. Also many cities and towns are using 287G

[foodcourtdruide]

Most illegal aliens have no insurance license or registration, there was a DWI a couple of months ago in NY when a drunk Guatemalan mowed down a mother and daughter it was his employers car, many use their employers cars. As I have always stated, the employer needs to be held accountable as well

Also a huge majority of illegals are illiterate in 2 languages, they can not read the signs


You hinted in a previous post that there were high numbers of drunk driving incidents with illegal immigrants? I don't know what the first part of the post has to do with that.

I have no idea if your claim is true or false (not saying either way, i'm just ignorant to it), but don't you think illiterate people can still understand road signs? I'm just talking as a point of logic. I actually thought giving illegal immigrants drivers licenses was a very good idea, so they could get insurance and because it would push harsher punishments on drivers without licenses and insurance.

[TheMojoPin]

Capitalism yes, but not lawlessness

The market tolerates certain levels of "lawlessness" so long as the end result is a profit. The profit is considered to outweigh any of the social impact. Them's the breaks, my son.

Are you opposed to the current involvement by the government into the marketplace over the recession? Then I can only imagine you'd be furious if the government took steps to eliminate the private sector's source of cheap labor that they say they need to stay in the black.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

"WRESTLINGFAN is againt immigration because he knows he and the pussy American wrestlers he loves cannot stand up to the might of my unstoppable curry-power!"

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii158/Daniel_Sedin_22/curryman.jpg

Swing and a miss .Your comment is weak and pointless, I am against illegal immigration, not immigration

[TheMojoPin]

many of the crimes are crimes on society, the really bad ones are the ones where illegals kill, rape, assault, or rob someone. That is a crime that would not have been committed had they not moved or come here illegally.

I know we cannot stop all the illegal immigration, but atleast build a fucking fence, at least give it a go.

I would want the person out on bail, if anyone ever raped or molested any of my children, their life would end, regardless of the criminal penalties that I would incur. I believe that with the right lawyer, any parent could beat a charge of murder on a person who raped or molested your child.

Another point is this girl should have been a little more careful when it came to her drinking, I am a man and will not get that drunk in public, it is dangerous. She is partly to blame, unless she was drugged with GHB or similar. You are responsible for reasonably securing your on safety, there are things you can do to make yourself a target of crime.

K

Jezo can only dream of posting something with this much win.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The market tolerates certain levels of "lawlessness" so long as the end result is a profit. The profit is considered to outweigh any of the social impact. Them's the breaks, my son.

Are you opposed to the current involvement by the government into the marketplace over the recession? Then I can only imagine you'd be furious if the government took steps to eliminate the private sector's source of cheap labor that they say they need to stay in the black.

I was against all the bailouts from TARP, to GM.

[TheMojoPin]

Swing and a miss .Your comment is weak and pointless, I am against illegal immigration, not immigration

CURRY MAN IS NOT SUBJECT TO YOUR LAWS. HE GOES WHERE HE PLEASES AND DESTROYS!

[foodcourtdruide]

CURRY MAN IS NOT SUBJECT TO YOUR LAWS. HE GOES WHERE HE PLEASES AND DESTROYS!

Curry Man was my wife's favorite wrestler for a while. I loved when he teamed with Sharkboy.

SHELL YEAH!

[TheMojoPin]

I was against all the bailouts from TARP, to GM.

Then you basically answered my question: you're against the government entering the private marketplace, even if illegal or unethical activity is afoot or if an economic crisis is going down...unless it involves kicking foreigners out of the country. You want to have it both ways.

[earthbrown]

Gee, I wonder why anyone wants the guys willing to paid shit waiting around to get paid shit to do necessary work. Let me rack my brain on this one here....

It has nothing to do with "special interest groups" and everything to do with the wonderful world of free market capitalism, YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW!!!

ask Elizabeth Smart how she feels about people hiring undocumented or vagrant people, I am sure she would have rather not have spend 9 months getting raped by a 55yo crazy person. Her father should have been slapped for doing so.


K

[TheMojoPin]

Please go away, crazy man.

What happened? It used to be that you would post and then vanish for weeks at a time; now it seems like you're here every day. Where did all the extra free time come from?

[foodcourtdruide]

ask Elizabeth Smart how she feels about people hiring undocumented or vagrant people, I am sure she would have rather not have spend 9 months getting raped by a 55yo crazy person. Her father should have been slapped for doing so.


K

Yeah Mojo. Why are you so pro-rape?

[Kublakhan61]

The E Verify system is one of the most effective ways to prove whos legal or illegal. Also many cities and towns are using 287G

Tell it to Tyson Foods, dude. I don't hire illegals ... unless I have to move furniture up to my 4th floor apt.

[TheMojoPin]

Yeah Mojo. Why are you so pro-rape?

The rape lobby got to me.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Then you basically answered my question: you're against the government entering the private marketplace, even if illegal or unethical activity is afoot or if an economic crisis is going down...unless it involves kicking foreigners out of the country. You want to have it both ways.

In the case of GM /Chrysler it was a bad business model, THere wasnt any illegal activity going on. Bank of America was writing mortgages for illegal aliens

[TheMojoPin]

In the case of GM /Chrysler it was a bad business model, THere wasnt any illegal activity going on. Bank of America was writing mortgages for illegal aliens

Picking and choosing, sir.

[The Jays]

Please go away, crazy man.

What happened? It used to be that you would post and then vanish for weeks at a time; now it seems like you're here every day. Where did all the extra free time come from?

He realized the fight of liberty, freedom, and the American way can never take a vacation.

[earthbrown]

In the case of GM /Chrysler it was a bad business model, THere wasnt any illegal activity going on. Bank of America was writing mortgages for illegal aliens

their cases were partially caused by fleet wide emissions and MPG standards. American car makers rule the SUV and pickup market, yet they are forced to have so much of their fleets made up of cars to offset their fuel mileage quota.

If americans want small fuel efficient cars they buy toyota, honda, nissan, etc, if they want trucks and SUV they go to the big 3. If the companies were allowed to manage their businesses properly, they could have produced less of the smaller cars and more of the profitable suv's.

Unions also bankrupt the car industry.

K

[booster11373]

their cases were partially caused by fleet wide emissions and MPG standards. American car makers rule the SUV and pickup market, yet they are forced to have so much of their fleets made up of cars to offset their fuel mileage quota.

If americans want small fuel efficient cars they buy toyota, honda, nissan, etc, if they want trucks and SUV they go to the big 3. If the companies were allowed to manage their businesses properly, they could have produced less of the smaller cars and more of the profitable suv's.

Unions also bankrupt the car industry.

K

You dont seem very smart

[TheMojoPin]

You dont seem very smart

Maybe he's the most brilliant of us all.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Maybe for some parts of the country, illegal immigration isnt a problem. I know that in Westchester County for example illegal immigration has had a huge impact. Towns like Port Chester, Mt Kisco have gotten out of control. I know people in Port Chester for example who pay 17 K a year in property taxes.

[TheMojoPin]

In Westchester they're much more concerned with the mutant problem.

[booster11373]

Maybe for some parts of the country, illegal immigration isnt a problem. I know that in Westchester County for example illegal immigration has had a huge impact. Towns like Port Chester, Mt Kisco have gotten out of control. I know people in Port Chester for example who pay 17 K a year in property taxes.

They would be paying 17 K a year regardless of any illegals being in the area or not

[WRESTLINGFAN]

They would be paying 17 K a year regardless of any illegals being in the area or not

I dont disagree with that. Scarsdale and Eastchester they pay higher taxes, but there isnt a problem of illegal immigration

When you have a high population of illegal aliens who dont pay property taxes, whose children are going to public schools, it puts a strain on the people who have to pay the property taxes to fund the local gov't

[TheMojoPin]

So if those people were gone the taxpayers would see some kind of tax cut?

[Syd]

They're living somewhere; someone is paying property taxes. It's not like they're just chilling out on public property every night to sleep.

[foodcourtdruide]

I dont disagree with that. Scarsdale and Eastchester they pay higher taxes, but there isnt a problem of illegal immigration

When you have a high population of illegal aliens who dont pay property taxes, whose children are going to public schools, it puts a strain on the people who have to pay the property taxes to fund the local gov't

I agree that mass numbers of illegal immigrants in small areas could strain things like schools/hospitals (though I'd probably disagree with you on the impact of their paying property/income taxes), which again, is another argument for an easier path to citizenship.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

They're living somewhere; someone is paying property taxes. It's not like they're just chilling out on public property every night to sleep.

Actually some of them are.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGd8plQiok0

I know there are encampments on eastern Long Island also

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So if those people were gone the taxpayers would see some kind of tax cut?

Taxes are high in Westchester no matter where you go, I moved to CT because the property taxes are lower, no county government no redundancy, someone in Scarsdale paying 17 K a year knows that their quality of life is much better

[booster11373]

I dont disagree with that. Scarsdale and Eastchester they pay higher taxes, but there isnt a problem of illegal immigration

When you have a high population of illegal aliens who dont pay property taxes, whose children are going to public schools, it puts a strain on the people who have to pay the property taxes to fund the local gov't

Are you aware that people who rent do not pay property taxes?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Are you aware that people who rent do not pay property taxes?

I know that, Im am saying that the people who pay the taxes which run municipalities are carrying the burden for the many who dont

[TheMojoPin]

How?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If their children are using public schools for example. Also the overcrowding iS a big problem as well.

More people in a town requires more civil service employees. Sure they pay soem form of tax in the form of sales tax when they purchase things, but its the property owners footing most of the bills

As far as overcrowding Heres an example. A 2 family house with 30 people living in it is a health problem. Mattresses everywhere including the living room. I know someone who works for verizon and he has told me about those illegal flophouses. How can a plumbing or septic tank sstem handle all those people?

[booster11373]

If their children are using public schools for example. Also the overcrowding iS a big problem as well.

More people in a town requires more civil service employees. Sure they pay soem form of tax in the form of sales tax when they purchase things, but its the property owners footing most of the bills

As far as overcrowding Heres an example. A 2 family house with 30 people living in it is a health problem. Mattresses everywhere including the living room. I know someone who works for verizon and he has told me about those illegal flophouses. How can a plumbing or septic tank sstem handle all those people?

That is a problem, but instead of going after the 30 people living in the house why not go after the 1-2 people who own it?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

That is a problem, but instead of going after the 30 people living in the house why not go after the 1-2 people who own it?

I said that in previous posts, the landlords need to be held accountable. If he is charging each illegal 500 a month for rent, hes making a small fortune. Most of the time its all cash so he's not even reporting that rental income

[silera]

The law needs to be changed so that immigrants, legal/illegal can not be set free on bail.

I thought your problem was only with the illegal ones. So the constitution doesn't apply to the legal ones as well?

It's very clear to me, even as you and others try to cloak your hatred with "issues", what you are.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I thought your problem was only with the illegal ones. So the constitution doesn't apply to the legal ones as well?

It's very clear to me, even as you and others try to cloak your hatred with "issues", what you are.

Yes my issues are with illegal ones, Illegal aliens of all backgrounds, there are plenty illegal Irish living in the bronx especially in Woodlawn section so before you spout out the old tired words that "oh hes only blaming the Mexicans and Central Ameircans" take a step back and see that I have stated numerous times, its not the just illegals, its their supporters, landlords and employers. legal immigrants might flee back to their country as well. Quit trying to put anyone who disagrees with illegal aliens and their supporters as part of some hate groups. Thats disingenuous on your part and a pathetic attempt to paint a broad brush, it makes your arguement weak. I know for the most part many are hard working, theres no debating that, but they are here illegally. Im sure one day most people would like the corner office but they cant just barge in and demand it. There are people on the fringe who just want to go out and cause harm to them like those punks did on long island a few months ago, or what happened to that person in Pennsylvania where a bunch of thugs beat him to death Illegal aliens even though they broke the law have basic human rights , People with sanity arent going to go out and bash anyone with brown skin. this problem needs to be taken on by using existing laws

A lot of us probably had stow aways that got past the process of ellis Island, no system is perfect, but whats going on today is defacto anarchy

I said earlier that maybe the southern border should be the new ellis island, this way we know whos coming in, we can screen people for diseases and weed out the criminals, wouldnt that be a better idea than what we have now? A few thousand border agents covering 2000 miles isnt working too well

[TheMojoPin]

But you said you want legal immigrants to be denied bail.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

But you said you want legal immigrants to be denied bail.

I believe the constitution is open to interpretation,Also the 14th ammendment should not apply to children of illegals in my opinion, they should not be automatic citizens. There should be a constitutional ammendment which states that if anyone believes that they should

On an environmental matter, there are tons of garbage left at the border left by illegals


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1666204/posts

[silera]

I don't know what you think my argument is. You're all over the place with random accusations and faulty logic. At the end of the day, 12 million illegal immigrants in a country of 307 million is about 4% of the total population.

That 4% of the population isn't responsible for all your problems. Enforcement of arbitrary immigration laws, that were set up to filter out "unwanteds" from entering the country in the early 19th century just isn't a priority for the country for many reasons. The primary reason is that illegal immigrants provide a net gain for businesses that use them. If they didn't, then you can bet your ass that corporations would be pumping money to lobbyists and politicians to fix the problem.

Yes there are illegal immigrants that commit crimes. Yes there is a societal cost to provide health care, schooling and housing. These costs are not unique to illegal immigrants so singling out the most marginal members of society to bear the brunt of your arguments is very weak in my opinion. Everything you are saying now was said about the Irish, the Italians, the Polish, the Japanese in the 1920s. They're dirty, they're stupid, they don't speak the language- they are not like us.

80% of illegal immigrants are hispanic. 20% of the hispanic population in the united states is here illegally. If that 80% looked more like the rest of America- some of those so righteously opposed to them might not be.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hhmcensus1.html

As for the 14th amendment being "open to interpretation", it looks very clear to me.
Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Even with all the immigration legal and illegal in the US, the immigrant population of the country isn't near as high as it was in the early 19th century. It was at about 12% then and about 10% now. In a nation with dwindling birth rate, and not enough people to support the social security system, I think it wouldn't be bad to have a young, healthy, working population boom to make up for all the baby boomers that are leaving the work force.

I know the difference between discussing valid points regarding the hugely complicated issue. There is so much to cover but I can't take the fucking tone anymore. It's racist. It's stupid. It's garbage. I'm not calling you a racist to win anything. What would I win exactly. You and others don't know that you are racist. You think it is ok to make illogical faulty non sequitor statements. It's not ok to me.

[The Jays]

Go back to Illegalimmigrantland, you iillegal immigrant lover.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I don't know what you think my argument is. You're all over the place with random accusations and faulty logic. At the end of the day, 12 million illegal immigrants in a country of 307 million is about 4% of the total population.

That 4% of the population isn't responsible for all your problems. Enforcement of arbitrary immigration laws, that were set up to filter out "unwanteds" from entering the country in the early 19th century just isn't a priority for the country for many reasons. The primary reason is that illegal immigrants provide a net gain for businesses that use them. If they didn't, then you can bet your ass that corporations would be pumping money to lobbyists and politicians to fix the problem.

Yes there are illegal immigrants that commit crimes. Yes there is a societal cost to provide health care, schooling and housing. These costs are not unique to illegal immigrants so singling out the most marginal members of society to bear the brunt of your arguments is very weak in my opinion. Everything you are saying now was said about the Irish, the Italians, the Polish, the Japanese in the 1920s. They're dirty, they're stupid, they don't speak the language- they are not like us.

80% of illegal immigrants are hispanic. 20% of the hispanic population in the united states is here illegally. If that 80% looked more like the rest of America- some of those so righteously opposed to them might not be.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hhmcensus1.html

As for the 14th amendment being "open to interpretation", it looks very clear to me.


Even with all the immigration legal and illegal in the US, the immigrant population of the country isn't near as high as it was in the early 19th century. It was at about 12% then and about 10% now. In a nation with dwindling birth rate, and not enough people to support the social security system, I think it wouldn't be bad to have a young, healthy, working population boom to make up for all the baby boomers that are leaving the work force.

I know the difference between discussing valid points regarding the hugely complicated issue. There is so much to cover but I can't take the fucking tone anymore. It's racist. It's stupid. It's garbage. I'm not calling you a racist to win anything. What would I win exactly. You and others don't know that you are racist. You think it is ok to make illogical faulty non sequitor statements. It's not ok to me.

Here is the interpretation of the 14th ammendment.

http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/anchorbaby_FAIR.html


We already have a very open immigration system for people to legally emigrate here

http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/070731_nd.htm


Once again you use the racist card when you have no defense, and I have said numerous times that I am opposed to illegal immigration regardless of race. Nice try but swing and a miss on your part. Its not ok to me that you constantly scream racist when I have made my case against illegal immigration

I dont fall into the Pat Buchanan school that America is losing its White European population, I dont believe that all hispanics agree with La Raza. I want people emigrating here the legal way, and going thru the proper procedures, why should illegal aliens get a free pass?

I also said that the southern border should be set up like ellis island. Please dont pick and choose my points, when I have made every attempt to be clear on my arguements

[TheMojoPin]

Hah!

American Patrol Report.

And she clearly has plenty of "defense." It's not like the only thing she's posting is "RACIST RACIST RACIST:" that's all you're hearing/reading.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Hah!

American Patrol Report.

And she clearly has plenty of "defense." It's not like the only thing she's posting is "RACIST RACIST RACIST:" that's all you're hearing/reading.

The Mexican government has the nerve to export their impoverished people to this country. Mexico has a vast supply of natural resources. The Mexican people need to rise up and fix their country.



An illegal alien in Mexico does not get free education, welfare, and entitlements, they enforce their laws but they want to complain when we enforce ours

[TheMojoPin]

Gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass.

[silera]

Seriously??

How can you link me to those two sites and tell me that you are not against simply illegal immigration? The vdare one clearly states that legal immigration is the bigger problem.
Both those site are chock full of both cloaked and uncloaked nativist garbage.

The problem with immigration- is that unless you can marginalize the undocumented- you don't realize the full profit potential and get the added bang of distracting idiots into thinking our nation's financial problems are the fault of pathetic masses.

Mojo points out the facetiousness of it all when "free market" capitalist, states rights, 2nd amendment lovers actively seek MORE regulation and MORE government intervention. Oh I thought that's what you didn't want? Oh I thought pro lifers wanted women not to abort. I thought they cared about kids. Oh really you care about the environment. Those goddamn mexicans are littering. Are you shitting me? What we allow corporations to get away with as far as environmental fucking pillage and disregard doesn't even compare.

Enron ass fucked California for 30 billion dollars in one year. Lehman, AIG, Wall Street fucked up so royally that they needed loans and bailouts to the tune of 700B dollars. Where's the cry more enforcement and regulation on that end? Don't touch that 2nd amendment but make sure that 14th one keeps all the darkies from being citizens.

Racism is not a fucking card. It is not something that people cry. It is something that you feel every goddamn day. I don't agree with you because I'm seeing right through you. You don't agree with me that is fine. You're the one making broad generalizations about hispanics being drunk drivers, illiterates, criminals, rapists, frauds etc. The "cry racism" card is just an easy way for racists to avoid facing themselves.

[TheMojoPin]

She makes a good point: so many of the arguments used by the virulently anti-illegal crowds typically fly in the face of their usually conservative ideologies and political beliefs.

I also like the irony of an American demanding the Mexicans "rise up" when it's his own country that has gone out of its way to squash people rising up all throughout Central and South America (Mexico included) time and time again.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Seriously??

How can you link me to those two sites and tell me that you are not against simply illegal immigration? The vdare one clearly states that legal immigration is the bigger problem.
Both those site are chock full of both cloaked and uncloaked nativist garbage.

The problem with immigration- is that unless you can marginalize the undocumented- you don't realize the full profit potential and get the added bang of distracting idiots into thinking our nation's financial problems are the fault of pathetic masses.

Mojo points out the facetiousness of it all when "free market" capitalist, states rights, 2nd amendment lovers actively seek MORE regulation and MORE government intervention. Oh I thought that's what you didn't want? Oh I thought pro lifers wanted women not to abort. I thought they cared about kids. Oh really you care about the environment. Those goddamn mexicans are littering. Are you shitting me? What we allow corporations to get away with as far as environmental fucking pillage and disregard doesn't even compare.

Enron ass fucked California for 30 billion dollars in one year. Lehman, AIG, Wall Street fucked up so royally that they needed loans and bailouts to the tune of 700B dollars. Where's the cry more enforcement and regulation on that end? Don't touch that 2nd amendment but make sure that 14th one keeps all the darkies from being citizens.

Racism is not a fucking card. It is not something that people cry. It is something that you feel every goddamn day. I don't agree with you because I'm seeing right through you. You don't agree with me that is fine. You're the one making broad generalizations about hispanics being drunk drivers, illiterates, criminals, rapists, frauds etc. The "cry racism" card is just an easy way for racists to avoid facing themselves.

Youre all over the map. 1st of all I am pro choice, Dont lump every one center right as a religious bible thumper. Secondly, I am for capitalism but not for this circus of free trade. Bailouts? give me a fucking break, I did not want any taxpayer money going to Citigroup, Goldman Sachs Fannie Mae or General Motors and Chrysler.

[TheMojoPin]

Youre all over the map.

She's really not. Let's take this one step at a time:

Why are you opposed to the bailouts?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

She's really not. Let's take this one step at a time:

Why are you opposed to the bailouts?

As someone who is a libertarian/center right, I am not religious, I believe that some drugs should be legalized for example. If Gays/Lesbians want to get married fine with that.. The federal reserve should be audited, Im not for a North American union. Glass Steagal which was repealed in 99 was one of the worst pieces of legislation ever I left the Republican party a few years back because they are no better than the Dems, in many cases they are the same party. They both want illegals here

Sileras attempt to put me in with the "Religious Right" is weak and pathetic.

You want to talk about California? The illegal immigration situation has been a major factor of that State being 40 billion dollars in the red. Thats not racism or bigotry, its a fact

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/dec/06/20041206-102115-6766r/


I agree Wall St fucked up but the Federal Government cant even run a fucking Railorad look at Amtrak and people expect that it can be a part of 1/6th of the economy with regards to health insurance?

As far as the bailouts, in capitalism the weak companies are supposed to fail. There have been a lot of companies which went into bankruptcy and have emerged

[TheMojoPin]

As far as the bailouts, in capitalism the weak companies are supposed to fail. There have been a lot of companies which went into bankruptcy and have emerged

In capitalism a cheap labor force is needed, too. Immigrants, legal and illegal, were expressly encouraged to become that labor force. If you want to eliminate that labor force you are flying in the face of the whims of capitalism.

There's a difference between "conservative" and the Religious Right," and you clearly fall under the banner of the former and many of your opinions on immigration fly directly counter to many of the hallmarks of that ideology. Opinions on drugs or abortion or gay marriage really don't mean squat in that regard: I'm talking about the basic conservative/Libertarian belief in "smaller government." The type of action you seem to want is as about as big and as expensive and as invasive as the federal government can get.

[silera]

You and I obviously can't communicate.

I'm all over the place?

The Cato Institute is Libertarian.

Read this.
http://www.freetrade.org/files/pubs/pas/tpa-040.pdf

This study finds that increased enforcement and reduced low-skilled immigration
have a significant negative impact on the income of U.S. households. Modest savings in public expenditures would be more than offset by losses in economic output and job opportunities for more-skilled American workers. A policy that reduces the number of low-skilled immigrant workers by 28.6 percent compared to projected levels would reduce U.S. household welfare by about 0.5 percent, or $80 billion.

In contrast, legalization of low-skilled immigrant workers would yield significant income gains for American workers and households. Legalization would eliminate smugglers’ fees and other costs faced by illegal immigrants. It would also allow immigrants to have higher productivity and create more openings for Americans in higherskilled occupations. The positive impact for U.S. households of legalization under an optimal visa tax would be 1.27 percent of GDP or $180 billion

[WRESTLINGFAN]

In capitalism a cheap labor force is needed, too. Immigrants, legal and illegal, were expressly encouraged to become that labor force. If you want to eliminate that labor force you are flying in the face of the whims of capitalism.

There's a difference between "conservative" and the Religious Right," and you clearly fall under the banner of the former and many of your opinions on immigration fly directly counter to many of the hallmarks of that ideology. Opinions on drugs or abortion or gay marriage really don't mean squat in that regard: I'm talking about the basic conservative/Libertarian belief in "smaller government." The type of action you seem to want is as about as big and as expensive and as invasive as the federal government can get.

Illegal immigration drives down wages of unskilled Labor. Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration.

On the basics of conservatism I believe at its core values its to be fiscally conservative. Having a big government redistribute wealth to give entitlements especially to illegal aliens is counterproductive

Out of all the candidates for the GOP last year the only true conservative was Ron Paul and his stance on illegal immigration was on point in which I believe in

[Syd]

Out of all the candidates for the GOP last year the only true conservative was Ron Paul and his stance on illegal immigration was on point in which I believe in

Ron Paul is part of the religious right and every bit of an opportunistic vulture as any other pro-capitalist puppet thrown on the political stage. He just hid it better behind Rand fiction.

[TheMojoPin]

Illegal immigration drives down wages of unskilled Labor. Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration.

I wasn't arguing in support of the idea of "accepting" immigrants as the cheap labor force: I'm pointing out that that's simply how it is. It was a conscious series of decisons over the last 150 years or so. It's ingrained into our economic and social structure.

On the basics of conservatism I believe at its core values its to be fiscally conservative. Having a big government redistribute wealth to give entitlements especially to illegal aliens is counterproductive

And you'd need a huge government to "deal with" the immigrants here already as you seem to be implying. You won't find anyone here who is opposed to the idea of significant reform to the immigration process, nor are you likely to find anyone opposed to the idea of something like the deportation of illegals convicted of a crime. You claim to be against big government "redistributing wealth" (which they're not) yet you seem to be in support of the insanely expensive and draconian systems that would be necessary to deal with all of the illegals here now. The bottom line is that any serious push for immigration reform basically just needs to accept the illegals that are here now and start fresh. Anything else is working backwards and is incredibly shortsighted and as far as conservative as one could be.

Out of all the candidates for the GOP last year the only true conservative was Ron Paul and his stance on illegal immigration was on point in which I believe in

Ron Paul was unrealistically conservative. It's remarkable how many people are so gung-ho over his suggestion to audit the federal reserve while completely ignoring that his suggestion to do so hinges on that eliminating it.

[keithy_19]

Gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass.

Rock, flag and eagle.

:smile:

[silera]

Cesar Chaves actually changed his opinion on illegal immigration. He and the UFW worked to get the 1986 amnesty approved.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/mar/29/1m29farm231735-more-unions-favor-legalizing-worker/

“The UFW protested the inactivity of the (Immigration and Naturalization Service) and then began stopping Mexican undocumented workers at the border, trying to convince them not to scab,” reads a passage from “César Chávez: A Triumph of Spirit,” a biography of Chávez co-written by Richard Griswold del Castillo, a professor of Chicano studies at San Diego State University. Some strikebreakers did turn back, but there were also violent confrontations, according to the book.
The position union members took against strikebreakers was born not out of qualms over legal status but out of self-preservation, Rodriguez said.
“If you bring in people more hungry than the ones already here, those workers are forced to do what is necessary to take care of their families,” he said.
Today, legalizing workers once seen as competitors has become a priority; the UFW kicked off a new pro-legalization campaign this month.
It is also viewed as a necessity.


Either way- another specious argument. Do you know what Chaves stood for at all? Or did you just read about how awesome it is that you can throw a Mexican in immigrants faces and imply he was a "minute man".

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Cesar Chaves actually changed his opinion on illegal immigration. He and the UFW worked to get the 1986 amnesty approved.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/mar/29/1m29farm231735-more-unions-favor-legalizing-worker/



Either way- another specious argument. Do you know what Chaves stood for at all? Or did you just read about how awesome it is that you can throw a Mexican in immigrants faces and imply he was a "minute man".

You mentioned Simpson Mazzoli 0f 1986, but look at which it specifically states

"The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA), also Simpson-Mazzoli Act (Pub.L. 99-603, 100 Stat. 3359, signed by President Ronald Reagan on November 6, 1986) is an Act of Congress which reformed United States immigration law. The Act made it illegal to knowingly hire or recruit illegal immigrants (immigrants who do not possess lawful work authorization), required employers to attest to their employees' immigration status, and granted amnesty to certain illegal immigrants who entered the United States before January 1, 1982 and had resided there continuously. The Act also granted a path towards legalization to certain agricultural seasonal workers and immigrants who had been continuously and illegally present in the United States since January 1, 1982.[1]"

So you want 12-20 million people legalized for breaking the law? You think its ok for employers not to be held accountable for their actions?

So how about if someone robs a bank and gets caught later with $100,000 in stolen cash. Can he keep the money since he's down on his luck and poor? Someone breaks into your house because he's hungry, why not let him stay, after all he has a right to be in your house according to your theory

[TheMojoPin]

So how about if someone robs a bank and gets caught later with $100,000 in stolen cash. Can he keep the money since he's down on his luck and poor? Someone breaks into your house because he's hungry, why not let him stay, after all he has a right to be in your house according to your theory

False analogies. For them to be applicable then illegals would have to provide no service or nothing in return and exist only as a drain/burden. That's not reality. It's been made abundantly clear why this country has tolerated the presence of illegals: the gains are perceived to outweigh the negatives.

[silera]

Your outlandish scenario is silly. My issue has to do with the fact that you are trying to conduct this "debate" when your true feelings are that you have a problem with immigrants- not just illegal immigrants.

Obviously, the fact that there are 12 million illegals (the high number currently used by almost everyone - not 20 as you state) means that there is a demand. Undocumented workers represent 5% of the workforce and only 4% of the population. Theyre obviously working. Instead of criminalizing them, we need to concede that businesses need the labor. As I stated before, the problem is that there is no incentive to do it. It's easier to allow the status quo because as things stand, businesses get to use workers that don't have rights and politicians can rally consituents around the stupid debate.

The real solution is a worker program. The real solution is to evaluate what needs businesses have. Current fines are not high enough and not enough businesses are forced to pay them to offset the costs of their cheap labor to the counties that they are in. Illegal immigrants aren't costing California 10 billion a year- its the businesses that employ them that are doing it.

[badmonkey]

So how about if someone robs a bank and gets caught later with $100,000 in stolen cash. Can he keep the money since he's down on his luck and poor? Someone breaks into your house because he's hungry, why not let him stay, after all he has a right to be in your house according to your theory

False analogies. For them to be applicable then illegals would have to provide no service or nothing in return and exist only as a drain/burden. That's not reality. It's been made abundantly clear why this country has tolerated the presence of illegals: the gains are perceived to outweigh the negatives.

Okay, so if somebody breaks into your house because he's hungry and washes the dishes when he's finished?


Your outlandish scenario is silly. My issue has to do with the fact that you are trying to conduct this "debate" when your true feelings are that you have a problem with immigrants- not just illegal immigrants.

Obviously, the fact that there are 12 million illegals (the high number currently used by almost everyone - not 20 as you state) means that there is a demand. Undocumented workers represent 5% of the workforce and only 4% of the population. Theyre obviously working. Instead of criminalizing them, we need to concede that businesses need the labor. As I stated before, the problem is that there is no incentive to do it. It's easier to allow the status quo because as things stand, businesses get to use workers that don't have rights and politicians can rally consituents around the stupid debate.

The real solution is a worker program. The real solution is to evaluate what needs businesses have. Current fines are not high enough and not enough businesses are forced to pay them to offset the costs of their cheap labor to the counties that they are in. Illegal immigrants aren't costing California 10 billion a year- its the businesses that employ them that are doing it.

You can't win an argument with somebody by ignoring what they say they believe and arguing with them about what YOU think they believe. You disregard his points while trying to prove he's a racist instead.

If you care so much about having cheap labor, then why do you keep supporting increases in the minimum wage and unions? If you don't have a problem with them working for slave wages, then why not just bring back slavery or at least indentured servitude? You could legislate housing standards for them and you could pay them even less since they don't have to house or feed themselves. Big companies could build dorms and cafeterias and house their workers right on the land they're working. Democrats have the majority in congress, what are they waiting for? Every argument you make about how we need the cheap labor sounds like "It's ok to fuck them over, they're Mexicans." I'm not the one saying it's more important to have cheap vegetables than pay them a decent wage because they're from Mexico. Who's the racist now?

You tell the mother who's kid got murdered by the illegal immigrant that it's ok because other illegals just wanna work? Who gives a shit what race they are if they run your kid down while driving drunk? All that mother knows is that if the illegal wasn't here, their kid might still be alive. What's racist there? Is it racist to be concerned about the health issues of the illegals living multiple families to a house? Is it racist to be concerned when they are murdered for their cash because they can't use a bank? Is it racist to say let them in temporarily to work here legally and send them home when they're done so that they can have documentation, identification, driver's licenses, insurance, etc. that makes them and us both safer? It's probably racist to offer vouchers to poor families that let their children attend private schools too. That's probably why President Obama and the Democrats killed the program in D.C. (http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08062507.html) I'm sick of people slinging around "racist" and "racism" at people that disagree with them. If you can't make an argument without resorting to name calling, then maybe you should do more listening and less talking.

[silera]

The "problem" won't be solved unless big business and the government truly sees a negative. The racist bullshit I see in this thread is what it is. Are there problems with people that reside in this country? Yes. Are these problems unique to immigrants that came here illegally? No. Why seperate them? Why act as if these people are the issue?

The issues of crime, health services, education, labor etc can be dealt with for what they are without trying to find a scapegoat. It's bullshit to pretend that you're all for free markets and then make an exception to free market in action in the situation where you just don't like it.

I'm not trying to prove he's a racist. I know he is. The websites he's linked, the typical quotes he's thrown out all all make it clear.

If the thread were titled- Black Battle 2009, and you read the following statements:
Blacks Rape
They are all on welfare
They rob from us
Theyre drug dealers
Theyre murderers
They abuse welfare
Theyre kids are stupid and dont graduate highschool
Most black men are in jail

Wouldn't you find that incredibly racist?

I don't see how much clearer I can make it. The anger, vitriol and outright non sequitors for the cost of illegals is to me a distraction for the real problem.

[silera]

? Is it racist to say let them in temporarily to work here legally and send them home when they're done so that they can have documentation, identification, driver's licenses, insurance, etc. that makes them and us both safer?

By they way I'm fine with that. I think it'd be awesome. Many would consider it another amnesty. I just think it's common sense. Take a look at vdare or that other stupid site.

Reasonable discussions are fine but I'm not going to fucking ignore the obvious so someone can feel better about their hate.

This one is rich:
The only question that should be asked regarding the multiple U.S. legal immigration policies is will they in any tangible way enhance the quality of life for Americans?

Answers are hard to come by if you count on the Mainstream Media (MSM) for your information. It dwells only on the supposed benefits of multiculturalism.

But VDARE.COM readers know that, on balance, the quality of American life has not been improved through mass legal immigration


http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/050506_immigration.htm (http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/070731_nd.htm)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The "problem" won't be solved unless big business and the government truly sees a negative. The racist bullshit I see in this thread is what it is. Are there problems with people that reside in this country? Yes. Are these problems unique to immigrants that came here illegally? No. Why seperate them? Why act as if these people are the issue?

The issues of crime, health services, education, labor etc can be dealt with for what they are without trying to find a scapegoat. It's bullshit to pretend that you're all for free markets and then make an exception to free market in action in the situation where you just don't like it.

I'm not trying to prove he's a racist. I know he is. The websites he's linked, the typical quotes he's thrown out all all make it clear.

If the thread were titled- Black Battle 2009, and you read the following statements:
Blacks Rape
They are all on welfare
They rob from us
Theyre drug dealers
Theyre murderers
They abuse welfare
Theyre kids are stupid and dont graduate highschool
Most black men are in jail

Wouldn't you find that incredibly racist?

I don't see how much clearer I can make it. The anger, vitriol and outright non sequitors for the cost of illegals is to me a distraction for the real problem.

Im talking about illegal immigration and youre bringing some awful stereotypes about blacks in this. I stated that most illegal aliens are hard working but they are still here illegally, Another pathetic attempt by you to label someone as a racist. It shows that you are very insecure about someone debating you on a topic like this. You sound like Jimmy Carter, you get presented with an opposing view and you throw out racism. Go back and read my previous posts, Normal people dont want to go out and bash brown people



You want them legalized and youre for amnesty , fine so in the meatime while they are still illegal someone driving drunk or committing another crime whos illegal do you think they should still be here after being arrested?

If amnesty is passed again, should their be another amnesty in 25 years? What makes you think that if another blanket Amnesty law is passed that the same situation wont happen again?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

And another thing. How is it being racist when I am opposed to all illegal immigration regardless of national origin

Nice try Silera. Just proves my point that you throw out comments like that when being presented with an opposing point of view

[TheMojoPin]

You keep saying that you're against in general but your examples really don't jive with that at all. You're making it very clear who your beef is truly with and you seem to be implying you want some pretty drastic "big government" measures in place to deal with it.

You're also ignoring what she's been saying: she doesn't want only an amensty. We want what effectively amounts to an amnesty only if its coupled with significant reform of the immigration process with the plan that another amnesty would not be needed down the line. Nobody here wants simply an amnesty without reform, nor do they want anyone just being let go, illegal or otherwise, if they are arrested, tried and convicted of a crime.

[TheMojoPin]

Okay, so if somebody breaks into your house because he's hungry and washes the dishes when he's finished?

Still doesn't work because, again, the current immigration situation was and is essentially fostered and tolerated because the gains outweigh the losses, so it would be more accurate to give an analogy of "someone breaks into your house, takes some food because they're hungry and then leaves a pile of money worth several times the damage and the food waiting for you."

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You keep saying that you're against in general but your examples really don't jive with that at all. You're making it very clear who your beef is truly with and you seem to be implying you want some pretty drastic "big government" measures in place to deal with it.

You're also ignoring what she's been saying: she doesn't want only an amensty. We want what effectively amounts to an amnesty only if its coupled with significant reform of the immigration process with the plan that another amnesty would not be needed down the line. Nobody here wants simply an amnesty without reform, nor do they want anyone just being let go, illegal or otherwise, if they are arrested, tried and convicted of a crime.

For arguements sake say if a comprehensive reform was passed like the one Bush wanted back in 07. I believe Kennedy and McCain were the co sponsors. I remember it having provisions like they had to learn english and pay a fine and back taxes. Where would the illegals get all this money from? ALso the courts would have probably stepped in and said that excessive fines were unconstitutional. How about forcing someone to learn english, that would have probably been struck down

[TheMojoPin]

For arguements sake say if a comprehensive reform was passed like the one Bush wanted back in 07. I believe Kennedy and McCain were the co sponsors. I remember it having provisions like they had to learn english and pay a fine and back taxes. Where would the illegals get all this money from?

From their jobs. The payments wouldn't have to be all at once and upfront. Payment plans could have been set up where it was paid off over time. That's just common sense. Expecting all the money upfront in that situation simply is not realistic.

How about forcing someone to learn english, that would have probably been struck down

And rightfully so. There's nothing that exists that says anyone, legal or illegal, has to learn english or be forced to do so. It boggles my mind that you expect such a thing to exist and still can call yourself a Libertarian or Conservative.

It also makes no sense how you seem so hung up on "costs" to you yet you seem to be for huge, sweeping measures that would be insanely expensive.

[foodcourtdruide]

For arguements sake say if a comprehensive reform was passed like the one Bush wanted back in 07. I believe Kennedy and McCain were the co sponsors. I remember it having provisions like they had to learn english and pay a fine and back taxes. Where would the illegals get all this money from? ALso the courts would have probably stepped in and said that excessive fines were unconstitutional. How about forcing someone to learn english, that would have probably been struck down

So because past reforms didn't work you are anti-reform? Why do you think they would be struck down? Currently, if an American citizen marries an illegal immigrant the processing fees are very high (almost $2,000, if the person came here legally, I'm not sure about the cost of other scenario's) and that hasn't been struck down as unconstitutional.

There is definitely a chance for reform, but emotion seems to be standing in its way.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

From their jobs. The payments wouldn't have to be all at once and upfront. Payment plans could have been set up where it was paid off over time. That's just common sense. Expecting all the money upfront in that situation simply is not realistic.



And rightfully so. There's nothing that exists that says anyone, legal or illegal, has to learn english or be forced to do so. It boggles my mind that you expect such a thing to exist and still can call yourself a Libertarian or Conservative.

It also makes no sense how you seem so hung up on "costs" to you yet you seem to be for huge, sweeping measures that would be insanely expensive.

I didnt say that someone has to be forced to learn English, but if youre living in the US wouldnt you want to learn the language to communicate with an overwhelming majority who speaks english?

I also believe that the Catholic church wants illegals here due to their dwindling numbers since most are hispanic and catholic

[WRESTLINGFAN]

From their jobs. The payments wouldn't have to be all at once and upfront. Payment plans could have been set up where it was paid off over time. That's just common sense. Expecting all the money upfront in that situation simply is not realistic.



And rightfully so. There's nothing that exists that says anyone, legal or illegal, has to learn english or be forced to do so. It boggles my mind that you expect such a thing to exist and still can call yourself a Libertarian or Conservative.

It also makes no sense how you seem so hung up on "costs" to you yet you seem to be for huge, sweeping measures that would be insanely expensive.



What would be the cost ? Has there been an analysis to see how much it would be?

[TheMojoPin]

I didnt say that someone has to be forced to learn English, but if youre living in the US wouldnt you want to learn the language to communicate with an overwhelming majority who speaks english?

I'd never want some kind of law that forced people to learn it. Besides, their children will learn it anyway by going to school here and simply by growing up here.

[TheMojoPin]

What would be the cost ? Has there been an analysis to see how much it would be?

For what?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

For what?

For the cost to remove the illegals and repatriate them?

[earthbrown]

For the cost to remove the illegals and repatriate them?


I dont think it would cost as much as it costs us now to, incarcerate them for crimes they committed while here, welfare and food stamps, medical cost, etc....

get rid of all illegals on welfare, and all illegals who are now or have been incarcerated or convicted of a misdemeanor or felony.


K

[TheMojoPin]

For the cost to remove the illegals and repatriate them?

I don't know, but I can't imagine it would be anything besides astronomical given the scope of rouding everyone up, detaining them and then working through the logistics and red tape of sending them back to where they came from. It would take years and a massive amount of money and personel and resources.

[foodcourtdruide]

I don't know, but I can't imagine it would be anything besides astronomical given the scope of rouding everyone up, detaining them and then working through the logistics and red tape of sending them back to where they came from. It would take years and a massive amount of money and personel and resources.

It would also not lead towards actually fixing the peoblem in the future. Would you suggest this massive sweep occur ever 25 yrs?

[TheMojoPin]

It would also not lead towards actually fixing the peoblem in the future. Would you suggest this massive sweep occur ever 25 yrs?

I'm sure in this scenario guys like earthbrown and WF are also assuming the borders are now secure and monitored and that would be paid for with good intentions and staffed by imaginary friends. I wasn't even including the epic costs of all of that, but that's just going to make it even more ridiculous. I cannot fathom how anyone who claims to be for "small government" thinks that all of that would not cost an insane amount of money and result in an unprecedented expansion of government power.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I'm sure in this scenario guys like earthbrown and WF are also assuming the borders are now secure and monitored and that would be paid for with good intentions and staffed by imaginary friends. I wasn't even including the epic costs of all of that, but that's just going to make it even more ridiculous. I cannot fathom how anyone who claims to be for "small government" thinks that all of that would not cost an insane amount of money and result in an unprecedented expansion of government power.

Yes, small gov't. Gov't doing its job. Not to take from me and redistribute it to people who broke the law and should not be here in the form of welfare, foodstamps, education and other entitlements.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It would also not lead towards actually fixing the peoblem in the future. Would you suggest this massive sweep occur ever 25 yrs?

Actually it happened under Eisenhower

[foodcourtdruide]

Actually it happened under Eisenhower

That was 1954.

[TheMojoPin]

Yes, small gov't. Gov't doing its job. Not to take from me and redistribute it to people who broke the law and should not be here in the form of welfare, foodstamps, education and other entitlements.

AKA "Big, expensive government is OK so long as they're kicking ass and taking names."

You honestly think what's being "taken" from you will be LESS than what you're taxed now to get that done and maintain it?

[TheMojoPin]

That was 1954.

Also nowhere near the scale and scope of what he's seemingly suggesting/wanting right now.

(Sorry about the "edit" on your post; I hit that button instead of reply)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

AKA "Big, expensive government is OK so long as they're kicking ass and taking names."

You honestly think what's being "taken" from you will be LESS than what you're taxed now to get that done and maintain it?

They can take money presently being used for entitlements for them and use that for enforcement. Also cut the fat from the Defense budget which is about $600 billion dollars

[TheMojoPin]

They can take money presently being used for entitlements for them and use that for enforcement. Also cut the fat from the Defense budget which is about $600 billion dollars

God only knows how far your view of "entitlements" goes. I can only assume that means cutting things like welfare altogether. I also have no clue how you think they can just pick and choose to selectively gather aside the money from what you consider entitlements. You seriously fucking propose to pull money from education to fund this?

I also like how you want to cut the defense budget while we're currently engaged in two ongoing wars. Oh, and these wars are kind of occupying the time of the armed forces...that same armed forces you'd need to "secure our borders."

Honestly, why are you so opposed to the idea of facing this problem looking forward through immigration reform? The illegals here are a finite problem: they're not going to live forever and their kids are US citizens if they're born here. It's ass-bckwards to think the way to solve this going forward is to work backwards and kick out all the people already here. Such a thing would be all but crippling on so many levels that it wouldn't accomplish anything but making you feel better about people being gone whose presence here caused such a minimal impact on you to begin with. The long and short of it is you want to create bigger problems to deal with this. If the focus is shifted to immigration reform we can ease ourselves away from the current issues that bug you so much instead of going tits-up trying to fix something that ultimately isn't a crippling problem in the first place.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

God only knows how far your view of "entitlements" goes. I can only assume that means cutting things like welfare altogether.

I also like how you want to cut the defense budget while we're currently engaged in two ongoing wars. Oh, and these wars are kind of occupying the time of the armed forces...that same armed forces you'd need to "secure our borders."

Honestly, why are you so opposed to the idea of facing this problem looking forward through immigration reform? The illegals here are a finite problem: they're not going to live forever and their kids are US citizens if they're born here. It's ass-bckwards to think the way to solve this going forward is to work backwards and kick out all the people already here. Such a thing would be all but crippling on so many levels that it wouldn't accomplish anything but making you feel better about people being gone whose presence here caused such a minimal impact on you to begin with. The long and short of it is you want to create bigger problems to deal with this. If the focus is shifted to immigration reform we can ease ourselves away from the current issues that bug you so much instead of going tits-up trying to fix something that ultimately isn't a crippling problem in the first place.

There are a lot of programs in the military which arent needed. I think the missile defense program cut by Obama was a good thing, also I believe a couple of months ago they scrapped or at least scaled back the F 35 Fighter Jet program

I think it would be a good start if deportations were done a little bit at a time like deporting the people done with their sentences in jail, or illegals picked up for DWI. Many illegals have different aliases, releasing them on $500 bail almost guarantees they wont go to court. I understand there arent resources now to deport 20 million people, but it doesnt mean that things cant be done on a smaller scale for now

[TheMojoPin]

I think it would be a good start if deportations were done a little bit at a time like deporting the people done with their sentences in jail, or illegals picked up for DWI. Many illegals have different aliases, releasing them on $500 bail almost guarantees they wont go to court. I understand there arent resources now to deport 20 million people, but it doesnt mean that things cant be done on a smaller scale for now

Why are you talking like we never deport illegals convicted of crimes? We do it all the time. I agree that it's not happening across the board and it should, but it's not like it's not being done at all.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Why are you talking like we never deport illegals convicted of crimes? We do it all the time.

For more serious crimes, I know that but there have been many cases when illegals have multiple DWI's for example and they are still here

[TheMojoPin]

For more serious crimes, I know that but there have been many cases when illegals have multiple DWI's for example and they are still here

Which I actually agree with you on.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Could illegal aliens join the military? If so I believe if they serve a 4 year enlistment/ 6 year commission if they are college educated and become an Officer, there should be some sort of path to citizenship, Im open to that idea

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Come on in, the doors open, don't worry about obeying the law only Americans and legal immigrants need to

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/26/BA381A9A9N.DTL


http://www.examiner.com/x-10317-San-Diego-County-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2009m10d8-Servicing-illegal-migrants-in-camps-includes-prostitution

[foodcourtdruide]

Come on in, the doors open, don't worry about obeying the law only Americans and legal immigrants need to

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/26/BA381A9A9N.DTL


http://www.examiner.com/x-10317-San-Diego-County-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2009m10d8-Servicing-illegal-migrants-in-camps-includes-prostitution

You are turning this into something it's not. Why should the police waste their efforts on punishing drives because they are illegal immigrants? Do you want good/effective solutions or to just punish illegal immigrants? It's funny how conservatives solutions to the illegal immigration problem involves more government spending.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You are turning this into something it's not. Why should the police waste their efforts on punishing drives because they are illegal immigrants? Do you want good/effective solutions or to just punish illegal immigrants? It's funny how conservatives solutions to the illegal immigration problem involves more government spending.



If an illegal alien is driving without a license he should get punished. He is not supposed to be here, most likely theres no insurance on the car so if someone gets into an accident with them they are screwed.


Why is it that we must follow the law and if we break the law we need to deal with the consequences but they get a free pass.

As far as deporting them the government should trim some of the fat from the defense budget, dismantle the dept of education, trim down NASA and other bloated programs that would cover the costs of sending them back to their countries

We don't need another amnesty program, that will encourage more illegals to come to this country

[foodcourtdruide]

If an illegal alien is driving without a license he should get punished. He is not supposed to be here, most likely theres no insurance on the car so if someone gets into an accident with them they are screwed.


Why is it that we must follow the law and if we break the law we need to deal with the consequences but they get a free pass.


I don't know why you keep saying this. It doesn't say the law only applies to illegal aliens, it says it applies to everyone. Am I missing something?

Also, I don't necessarily agree with the course of action they are taking. I think it would be best to give illegal immigrants drivers licenses and allow them to get car insurance, THEN punish EVERYONE without proper license/insurance accordingly.


As far as deporting them the government should trim some of the fat from the defense budget, dismantle the dept of education, trim down NASA and other bloated programs that would cover the costs of sending them back to their countries

We don't need another amnesty program, that will encourage more illegals to come to this country

Again, you want the more expensive solution that in the end is worse for this country.. why? If assimilating them into our society is better for this country than sending them back to their countries, what is the point?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I don't know why you keep saying this. It doesn't say the law only applies to illegal aliens, it says it applies to everyone. Am I missing something?

Also, I don't necessarily agree with the course of action they are taking. I think it would be best to give illegal immigrants drivers licenses and allow them to get car insurance, THEN punish EVERYONE without proper license/insurance accordingly.



Again, you want the more expensive solution that in the end is worse for this country.. why? If assimilating them into our society is better for this country than sending them back to their countries, what is the point?

Driving isn't a god given right, its a privelege. I know I keep saying this but why reward people for breaking and entering but on a much larger scale?

some of this "stimulus" money can go to immigration enforcement and deportation

[badmonkey]

Driving isn't a god given right, its a privelege. I know I keep saying this but why reward people for breaking and entering but on a much larger scale?

some of this "stimulus" money can go to immigration enforcement and deportation

Oooh... we could create (or save) a few thousand jobs on the border!

[foodcourtdruide]

Driving isn't a god given right, its a privelege. I know I keep saying this but why reward people for breaking and entering but on a much larger scale?

some of this "stimulus" money can go to immigration enforcement and deportation

You can look at it as rewarding them, but I think in the end it's just the more cost effective and logical thing to do. Why are you running around in circles to punish them? Do you have a personal vendetta against illegal immigrants?

Whether or not driving is a God given right is totally irrelevant. Illegal immigrants will drive, so how do you handle it? Do you set up the system in a way that punishes them at the expense of society, or do you set up a system that assimilates them to the benefit of society?

You are looking at this in black and white, but it's clearly not. I don't think anyone can defend brute force as an effective route in handling the illegal immigration problem in this country.

[foodcourtdruide]

Oooh... we could create (or save) a few thousand jobs on the border!

I agree with BM here, I don't think small steps towards maintaining the current system is the way to go. I wish we'd change our way of thinking about illegal immigration.

[badmonkey]

I agree with BM here, I don't think small steps towards maintaining the current system is the way to go. I wish we'd change our way of thinking about illegal immigration.

I think they should get driver's licenses if they want to drive. I just think that those licenses should come from and be used in their home countries if they're not here legally.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You can look at it as rewarding them, but I think in the end it's just the more cost effective and logical thing to do. Why are you running around in circles to punish them? Do you have a personal vendetta against illegal immigrants?

Whether or not driving is a God given right is totally irrelevant. Illegal immigrants will drive, so how do you handle it? Do you set up the system in a way that punishes them at the expense of society, or do you set up a system that assimilates them to the benefit of society?

You are looking at this in black and white, but it's clearly not. I don't think anyone can defend brute force as an effective route in handling the illegal immigration problem in this country.

No ones calling to stop each car and profile people. imagine the traffic nightmare that would be?

I dont get what you mean brute force. Do you mean by workplace raids?

[foodcourtdruide]

I think they should get driver's licenses if they want to drive. I just think that those licenses should come from and be used in their home countries if they're not here legally.

How about an easier path to citizenship, then stricter punishments for people that don't follow that path along with better border surveillance/VISA enforcement?

[badmonkey]

You can look at it as rewarding them, but I think in the end it's just the more cost effective and logical thing to do. Why are you running around in circles to punish them? Do you have a personal vendetta against illegal immigrants?

Whether or not driving is a God given right is totally irrelevant. Illegal immigrants will drive, so how do you handle it? Do you set up the system in a way that punishes them at the expense of society, or do you set up a system that assimilates them to the benefit of society?

You are looking at this in black and white, but it's clearly not. I don't think anyone can defend brute force as an effective route in handling the illegal immigration problem in this country.

Whether or not stealing cars is a God given right is totally irrelevant. Car thieves are going to steal cards, so how do you handle it? Do you set up a system in a way that punishes them at the expense of society or do you set up a system that assimilates them to the benefit of society?

Whether or not murdering people is a God given right is totally irrelevant. Murderers are going to murder people, so how do you handle it? Do you set up a system in a way that punishes them at the expense of society or do you set up a system that assimilates them to the benefit of society?

Whether or molesting children is a God given right is totally irrelevant. Pedophiles are going to molest children, so how do you handle it? Do you set up a system in a way that punishes them at the expense of society or do you set up a system that assimilates them to the benefit of society?

I think the answer is, yes. That's what law enforcement is all about.

[foodcourtdruide]

No ones calling to stop each car and profile people. imagine the traffic nightmare that would be?

I dont get what you mean brute force. Do you mean by workplace raids?

By brute force I was referring to your previous post of trimming our budget to pay for mass deportations. I assumed this would be done using brute force, am I correct?

Also, I feel like we're jumping back and forth from the specific example of driving and immigration in general. Or maybe I'm just doing this in my head :)

[badmonkey]

How about an easier path to citizenship, then stricter punishments for people that don't follow that path along with better border surveillance/VISA enforcement?

How about they already have a path to citizenship that starts with applying for it through the proper channels? What's wrong with stricter punishments for people that don't follow THAT path along with better border surveillance/VISA enforcement?

[foodcourtdruide]

Whether or not stealing cars is a God given right is totally irrelevant. Car thieves are going to steal cards, so how do you handle it? Do you set up a system in a way that punishes them at the expense of society or do you set up a system that assimilates them to the benefit of society?

Whether or not murdering people is a God given right is totally irrelevant. Murderers are going to murder people, so how do you handle it? Do you set up a system in a way that punishes them at the expense of society or do you set up a system that assimilates them to the benefit of society?

Whether or pedophilia is a God given right is totally irrelevant. Pedophiles are going to molest children, so how do you handle it? Do you set up a system in a way that punishes them at the expense of society or do you set up a system that assimilates them to the benefit of society?

I think the answer is, yes. That's what law enforcement is all about.

Don't you think car stealing and illegal immigration are different because in the end it's extremely debatable whether or not illegal immigration has an adverse effect on this country, while it's pretty clear that stealing cars does?

I don't know why murder and pedophelia are being bought into this conversation. Can we keep this a little more grounded? Let's not pretend illegal immigration is within the same realm.

[foodcourtdruide]

How about they already have a path to citizenship that starts with applying for it through the proper channels? What's wrong with stricter punishments for people that don't follow THAT path along with better border surveillance/VISA enforcement?

Those paths are not affordable, nor attainable for many. Even using marriage as a path to citizenship could cost up to $5,000 if you include legal costs. Paper work alone is around $2,000.

[badmonkey]

Don't you think car stealing and illegal immigration are different because in the end it's extremely debatable whether or not illegal immigration has an adverse effect on this country, while it's pretty clear that stealing cars does?

I don't know why murder and pedophelia are being bought into this conversation. Can we keep this a little more grounded? Let's not pretend illegal immigration is within the same realm.

I just inserted 3 random crimes into what you said. In this country, you are punished if you are caught committing a crime. If you are in this country illegally, you don't get rewarded with a driver's license, you get sent back home. If they want a driver's license, they can get an international one. There's a lot of bad things that are side effects of illegal immigration and many of them are increased danger to them and us due to their illegal status.

If you wanted to move to Mexico, you would have to:
Q: What happens if a foreigner is married to a Mexican?

A: The Mexican citizen must obtain for the foreigner a resident alien document in order to reside in Mexico as the economic responsibility of the Mexican citizen.

Q: I was born in Mexico but became a U.S.citizen. Can I live in Mexico?

A: Only if you get the necessary permits from the Department of the Interior of Mexico because you are considered a foreigner with no special privileges.

Q: What are the principle categories under which foreigners may live in Mexico?

A: There are two main classes. Non-resident Alien and Resident Alien. The first is considered temporary and produces no permanent residency rights. The second class assumes a desire for permanent residency, and after five years. the foreigner is granted permanent right as a Legal Resident Alien.

Non-resident aliens are:

* Tourist, a temporary visitor, who can have e permit for up to six moths.
* Trans-migrant in transit to another country; in special cues, one can remain in Mexico up to thirty days.
* Visitor, a person who comes to practice some lucrative or non-lucrative activity for up to six moths; this period can be extended once if the visitor is engaged in any lucrative activity. If he is living on this income from abroad, or deposits brought from abroad, or if he is an artist, a scientist, a technician, an athlete.
* Advisor - an advisor can stay up to six moths, granted in order to attend meetings of stock holders as an advisor or stock holder; he may have multiple entries into Mexico but may not stay longer than thirty days in the country.
* Political refugee
* Student
* Distinguished visitor

Resident aliens are foreigners who come to Mexico to grow roots, intending to become a permanent resident and obtain the status of Legal Resident Alien. Q: What kinds of resident aliens are there? A: Resident aliens are:

* ANNUITANT. The person who has decided to come to Mexico in order to live off his resources brought in from abroad; from the interests accrued on the investment of his capital in certificates, securities, and State bonds or of the National Credit Institutions, or in others which the State Department may determine. The State Department can eventually allow persons who fit in this immigration category to engage in activities that are profitably paid.
* INVESTOR. The foreigner who enters the national territory in order to invest his capital in industry, in accordance with the laws of the country, for as long as the investment contributes to the social and financial development of the country.
* PROFESSIONAL MAN. This immigration category covers the alien who enters the national territory only in exceptional cases and prior registration of the academic title degree with the Department of Public Education. These exceptional cases are left to the criteria and discretion of the State Department, since they are not pre-determined by the Law nor by any Regulations.
* POSITION OF TRUST. Is held by the alien who enters national territory in order to be a Director or to assume other posts of complete trust in business firms or in institutions established inside the Republic of Mexico, as long as - in the judgment of the State Department - there is no doubling positions and that the respective service does Indeed merit and require entrance into the country.
* THE SCIENTIST. According to law, he's the alien who enters the Country in order to direct or carry out scientific investigations, to spread and divulge his scientific knowledge, to prepare researchers, or to undertake teaching work. The State Department takes into consideration the information which, in that respect, it is provided by the Institutions which it may deem fit and proper to consult.
* THE TECHNICIAN. The alien who Comes into the Country in order to Carry out an investigation applied within the production process, or to engage in specialized or technical functions which - on the judgment of the State Department - cannot be provided by the residents of the Country.
* THE FAMILY MEMBERS. In this case, it's a matter of aliens who enter the Country in order to live under the financial dependence of their spouse or of a blood relative.

(http://www.mexonline.com/lawimmigrate.htm)

They don't have any special treatment for people that just really really wanna move there really really bad.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This country should follow Mexicos lead. This is what happens of youre an illegal alien there. They allow their poor unskilled , illiterate citizens to come to this country. They even have pamphlets to sneak across the border, so we are basically babysitting them

http://www.mnforsustain.org/Mexicos%20Immigration%20Law%20in%20US.pdf


http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/legislative_issues/federal_issues/hot_issues_in_congress/immigration/mexican-booklet.pdf

[foodcourtdruide]

Sorry guys, be back later.

[TheMojoPin]

What about THE MAGICIAN?

[foodcourtdruide]

I'm a little confused about why you guys are talking about Mexico. What do their policies have to do with ours?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I'm a little confused about why you guys are talking about Mexico. What do their policies have to do with ours?

Mexico enforces their immigration laws but wants us to babysit their citizens. Remember Vicente Fox a couple of years ago lecturing us that our laws are too harsh

[foodcourtdruide]

Mexico enforces their immigration laws but wants us to babysit their citizens. Remember Vicente Fox a couple of years ago lecturing us that our laws are too harsh

Oh, I don't see the relevance.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Oh, I don't see the relevance.

For example someone from Guatemala is caught being an illegal alien in Mexico, theres no social services, automatic citizenship for their children, no foodstamps /welfare, free healthcare and public schooling. Instead they are considered felons and sent to jail

[foodcourtdruide]

For example someone from Guatemala is caught being an illegal alien in Mexico, theres no social services, automatic citizenship for their children, no foodstamps /welfare, free healthcare and public schooling. Instead they are considered felons and sent to jail

So, are you saying that Mexico is the gold standard for American Illegal Immigration policy? I'm still having a problem finding the connection you're making. Who cares about Mexico's policy towards illegal immigrants in their own country?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So, are you saying that Mexico is the gold standard for American Illegal Immigration policy? I'm still having a problem finding the connection you're making. Who cares about Mexico's policy towards illegal immigrants in their own country?

Im saying that the US should enforce its immigration laws. I am pointing out the double standard.

[TheMojoPin]

He wants us to be Mexico.

Without all the Mexicans.

OLE!

[foodcourtdruide]

Im saying that the US should enforce its immigration laws. I am pointing out the double standard.

I understand that, I'm still not sure how Mexico's enforcement of their immigration laws is relevant, but oh well. I have some delicoius udon noodles with veggies for lunch, what do you think of that? And are you really a wrestling fan?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

He wants us to be Mexico.

Without all the Mexicans.

OLE!

Our country has nothing on Mexico when it comes to political corruption, but thats up to the Mexicans to fix. They keep electing the same political filth back in office. Mexico isn't a desolate country it has oil, silver and other natural resources, but when theres an upper class and basically peasants then there lies the problem

I wouldnt mind some bullfighting here though

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I understand that, I'm still not sure how Mexico's enforcement of their immigration laws is relevant, but oh well. I have some delicoius udon noodles with veggies for lunch, what do you think of that? And are you really a wrestling fan?

Enjoy your lunch then. NOW IM STARVIN!!! Yes but I followed it more during the 80's-90's though

[foodcourtdruide]

The Udon was delicious. It was actually Udon with pork and cabbage. My wife is an amazing cook.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

American day laborers


http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/nov/02/new-faces-day-labor/

[GregoryJoseph]

http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/imgs/450/xrg1196_450.jpeg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/imgs/450/xrg1196_450.jpeg

When it comes to collecting welfare, foodstamps, and using the ER as their medicine cabinet for a case of the sniffles they sure know The language

[GregoryJoseph]

When it comes to collecting welfare, foodstamps, and using the ER as their medicine cabinet for a case of the sniffles they sure know The language

Amen,brother.


http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/imgs/450/ao11_450.jpeg

[underdog]

When it comes to collecting welfare, foodstamps, and using the ER as their medicine cabinet for a case of the sniffles they sure know The language

I wish I knew where you lived so I could drive by and boo you in person every day.

[Ritalin]

I wish I knew where you lived so I could drive by and boo you in person every day.

Funny

[SonOfSmeagol]

What about better border security for nothing else other than to keep meth, heroin, coke, and other bad shit out of the country as much as possible. I could go for legalizing the trees but that other stuff – not so sure.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I wish I knew where you lived so I could drive by and boo you in person every day.

Im at work subsidizing these people

[TheMojoPin]

What about better border security for nothing else other than to keep meth, heroin, coke, and other bad shit out of the country as much as possible. I could go for legalizing the trees but that other stuff – not so sure.

Meth is overwhelmingly a homegrown issue.

We're already sinking a massive amount of money and resources into supposedly working to staunch the flow of drugs into this country...what more do you realistically think can be done? I understand the idealized expectation, but it just doesn't seem realistic to expect us to be able to seal off the borders from a significant amount of drug trafficing without effectively occupying our own borders and coasts with an indefinite and fulltime military deployment.

This is by no means saying that we don't need better border security than we already have, but there's a huge gulf between that and expecting to actually make a significant dent into the drugs being imported into this country.

[Ritalin]

Im at work subsidizing these people

How about throwing a little bit of that cabbage my way? I've got two kids now, and my family has been in the country for 4 generations now. AND WHITE. Lithuanian. It doesn't get any whiter than that.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Meth is overwhelmingly a homegrown issue.

We're already sinking a massive amount of money and resources into supposedly working to staunch the flow of drugs into this country...what more do you realistically think can be done? I understand the idealized expectation, but it just doesn't seem realistic to expect us to be able to seal off the borders from a significant amount of drug trafficing without effectively occupying our own borders and coasts with an indefinite and fulltime military deployment.

This is by no means saying that we don't need better border security than we already have, but there's a huge gulf between that and expecting to actually make a significant dent into the drugs being imported into this country.

I dunno man. Meth and/or the ingredients are definitely more and more originating in Mexico. And with more coordination between foreign (inc latin and asian) and domestics. Maybe since it takes more than just one guy with a backpack to bring in quantity – like a truck, plane, or boat, we can try to stop more of the big shipments. More satellite, radar, ground surveillance. Go for the source staging areas. I just don’t know. But please please just keep the coke away from me – I’ve had my run and I’m done.

[TheMojoPin]

I dunno man. Meth and/or the ingredients are definitely more and more originating in Mexico. And with more coordination between foreign (inc latin and asian) and domestics. Maybe since it takes more than just one guy with a backpack to bring in quantity – like a truck, plane, or boat, we can try to stop more of the big shipments. More satellite, radar, ground surveillance. Go for the source staging areas. I just don’t know. But please please just keep the coke away from me – I’ve had my run and I’m done.

All of that would be very expensive with absolutely no end in sight as to when we'd be able to scale back.

I understand the intentions, but you're just looking at expanding the sinkhole that is the War on Drugs to even more excessive levels.

[SonOfSmeagol]

All of that would be very expensive with absolutely no end in sight as to when we'd be able to scale back.

I understand the intentions, but you're just looking at expanding the sinkhole that is the War on Drugs to even more excessive levels.

Well then, dammit, man, what’s your answer?

[TheMojoPin]

Well then, dammit, man, what’s your answer?

More focus on decriminalization and treatment. I don't think we should totally legalize all drugs, but you're simply not going to be able to stop people from wanting to and actually getting high. We should be focusing on dealing with the lessening the impact and the effects as opposed to fruitlessly thinking we can cut it off.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[SonOfSmeagol]

More focus on decriminalization and treatment. I don't think we should totally legalize all drugs, but you're simply not going to be able to stop people from wanting to and actually getting high. We should be focusing on dealing with the lessening the impact and the effects as opposed to fruitlessly thinking we can cut it off.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

What we need are “synthehol”-like versions where “intoxicating effects can be easily dismissed”. Where are the Ferengi when you need them.

[TheMojoPin]

What we need are “synthehol”-like versions where “intoxicating effects can be easily dismissed”. Where are the Ferengi when you need them.

I like the cut of your jib.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I like the cut of your jib.

Likewise. Science Fiction or no - agreement is agreement.

[Ritalin]

Oh look!

Trekkie spin the bottle.

[tanless1]

What about better border security for nothing else other than to keep meth, heroin, coke, and other bad shit out of the country as much as possible. I could go for legalizing the trees but that other stuff – not so sure.

Sorry to break it to you, but they make most the meth over here. Its easier to aquire the chemicals,and they don't have to deal w/ a border. Sure, its still their guys....and whoever else that has a habit to feed.

[tanless1]

....and I do agree w/ mojo on decriminalization. Prohibition didn't work and the war on drugs creates the monster profits.to many citizens are becoming numbers.

[TheMojoPin]

....and I do agree w/ mojo on decriminalization. Prohibition didn't work and the war on drugs creates the monster profits.to many citizens are becoming numbers.

Yeah, in this age of everyone being so concerned about our government spending money the ridiculous costs of our War on Drugs and the fallout on our justice system, or prisons and on our society in general even just financially should be enough to get more people to stop and rethink this.

[A.J.]

What we need are “synthehol”-like versions where “intoxicating effects can be easily dismissed”. Where are the Ferengi when you need them.

Working on the "Rules of Acquisition".

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So basically this lowlife dirtbag is an accomplice to illegal activity. Will he be making programs to crack codes for bank vaults?

I hope one of them drives drunk and hits him head on

http://www.cbs47.tv/news/state/story/GPS-tool-helps-illegal-immigrants-cross-US-border/HwKhv3KGOkquZ-n59gskNQ.cspx?rss=154

[DiabloSammich]

So basically this lowlife dirtbag is an accomplice to illegal activity. Will he be making programs to crack codes for bank vaults?

I hope one of them drives drunk and hits him head on

http://www.cbs47.tv/news/state/story/GPS-tool-helps-illegal-immigrants-cross-US-border/HwKhv3KGOkquZ-n59gskNQ.cspx?rss=154



You think that's bad, Mojo is trying to get people to read Wikipedia articles at their place of business instead of working.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Sorry to break it to you, but they make most the meth over here. Its easier to aquire the chemicals,and they don't have to deal w/ a border. Sure, its still their guys....and whoever else that has a habit to feed.

Maybe, maybe not. This is bit ambiguous and a little old but seems to indicate a trend towards outside mass production.

By effectively targeting and arresting the main suppliers of bulk precursor chemicals, DEA has successfully reduced the number of "super labs" in the United States. As a consequence, operators of super labs have shifted their production to Mexico. Current drug and lab seizure data suggests that approximately 80 percent of the methamphetamine used in the United States originates from larger laboratories operated by Mexican-based syndicates on both sides of the border. and that approximately 20 percent of the methamphetamine consumed comes from small toxic labs (STLs) in the United States.

Drug Enforcement Administration - Drug Threats And Enforcement Challenges (http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/cngrtest/ct032207attach.html)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

In Colorado if someone's an illegal alien they have a different set of laws set for them. Its ok to some Judge that they committed Identity Theft, One more sign that they have more rights than citizens and legal immigrants

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_13997923?source=rss

[Serpico1103]

In Colorado if someone's an illegal alien they have a different set of laws set for them. Its ok to some Judge that they committed Identity Theft, One more sign that they have more rights than citizens and legal immigrants

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_13997923?source=rss

Did you read the article? It was about giving immigrants the SAME right to privacy that citizens already enjoy, not MORE rights as you suggest.
Your hysteria gets the better of you.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Did you read the article? It was about giving immigrants the SAME right to privacy that citizens already enjoy, not MORE rights as you suggest.
Your hysteria gets the better of you.

Are you fucking insane? These people aren't immigrants, they are fucking illegal aliens You as a citizen try committing identity theft and see what happens. What if in 5 years you get a letter from the IRS saying you worked in a slaughterhouse in Colorado saying you evaded taxes and it has your SSN on it how would you react?

Hop a fence, overstay a visa and it gives someone carte blanche to commit more crimes

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Just another hard working "immigrant" that was here for a better life? Or to send money back to his 10 kids in Guatemala?. More like raping children that Americans wont rape

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009912150344


If those political hookers like Luis Guiterrez, Schumer, McCain and others couldnt get amnesty passed in 07 when the economy was in better standing lets see them try to ram this thru this time again

[Syd]

whew good thing only illegal immigrants commit crimes

[WRESTLINGFAN]

whew good thing only illegal immigrants commit crimes

Once again you validated my points. Its bad enough we have our own home grown criminals, With 20 million illegals here why should we allow more rapists, murderers, drug dealers, child molesters and every other lowlife that we don't know about in?

In suburban NYC alone a lot of the DWIs, accidents inolve these mopes with no license, insurance, registration etc.

[Syd]

I dunno man. Meth and/or the ingredients are definitely more and more originating in Mexico. And with more coordination between foreign (inc latin and asian) and domestics. Maybe since it takes more than just one guy with a backpack to bring in quantity – like a truck, plane, or boat, we can try to stop more of the big shipments. More satellite, radar, ground surveillance. Go for the source staging areas. I just don’t know. But please please just keep the coke away from me – I’ve had my run and I’m done.

The war on drugs is basically a huge waste of time and money and trying to stop it is completely pointless. The money is better spent on rehab and outreach programs -- limit the amount of death that occurs and have everyone in the entire US paying less in taxes.

http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm

in turn, less people in jail for non-violent drug offenses as well

[Syd]

Once again you validated my points. Its bad enough we have our own home grown criminals, With 20 million illegals here why should we allow more rapists, murderers, drug dealers, child molesters and every other lowlife that we don't know about in?

because it'd involve a massive and ridiculously expansive government to deal with it?

We sort of have a lot of ways into the country and a lot of people determined enough to get in illegally, and far too many businesses eager to welcome them.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

because it'd involve a massive and ridiculously expansive government to deal with it?

We sort of have a lot of ways into the country and a lot of people determined enough to get in illegally, and far too many businesses eager to welcome them.

That would be an expansion of Gov't that I would welcome, If the gov't enforces the laws, Fine

As I stated countless numbers of times, the employers, landlords need to be punished severely as well as the illegal aliens

[Serpico1103]

Are you fucking insane? These people aren't immigrants, they are fucking illegal aliens You as a citizen try committing identity theft and see what happens. What if in 5 years you get a letter from the IRS saying you worked in a slaughterhouse in Colorado saying you evaded taxes and it has your SSN on it how would you react?

Hop a fence, overstay a visa and it gives someone carte blanche to commit more crimes

Deep breath please. This is not a question of allowing them to break the law. It is a question of applying our rights to people here; regardless of their status.
If the tax returns that were seized were from citizens, the courts would have thrown out the case.
So, as a citizen, I would have got off on identity theft as they did.
I understand your emotional response to immigration issues. But, try to not let them cloud all reason.
Should "illegal aliens" be treated differently by law enforcement than a citizen that breaks the law?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Deep breath please. This is not a question of allowing them to break the law. It is a question of applying our rights to people here; regardless of their status.
If the tax returns that were seized were from citizens, the courts would have thrown out the case.
So, as a citizen, I would have got off on identity theft as they did.
I understand your emotional response to immigration issues. But, try to not let them cloud all reason.
Should "illegal aliens" be treated differently by law enforcement than a citizen that breaks the law?

There is a different set of rules for them and we the citizens. If I dont pay my taxes, interest and penalties accrue, If I still dont pay, my assets and property gets seized, If I stil dont pay, I get sent to jail

These people gather along the roads and use them as their public bathrooms, litter and block traffic, Piss in public as a citizen and you get a ticket

These people who are here illegally, have a different set of rules, They are allowed to live like livestock, they use the ER as their medicine cabinet and pay nothing. Illegal aliens poor? Not so fast, they make the equivalent of an American citizen making 230K a year

The employers can pay them cash, the Landlords rent a 1 family house to 40 of them causing property values to decline, meanwhile he lives in a gated community 20 miles away

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Cost to deport 12 Million Illegals 94 Billion. There are more like 20 million illegals so it would cost about 150-175 Billion

Heres a report from 2007


http://blogs.chron.com/immigration/archives/2007/09/cost_to_deport.html

[Serpico1103]

There is a different set of rules for them and we the citizens. If I dont pay my taxes, interest and penalties accrue, If I still dont pay, my assets and property gets seized, If I stil dont pay, I get sent to jail

These people who are here illegally, have a different set of rules, They are allowed to live like livestock, they use the ER as their medicine cabinet and pay nothing. Illegal aliens poor? Not so fast, they make the equivalent of an American citizen making 230K a year

The employers can pay them cash, the Landlords rent a 1 family house to 40 of them causing property values to decline, meanwhile he lives in a gated community 20 miles away

Jezo?

You also can live like livestock, use the ER as your medicine cabinet and pay nothing. Ever hear of homeless citizens?
You have the same choice they do. There are not different rules. Do you really think that the police and courts treat illegals better than citizens? You just sound foolish.
I think immigration laws should be pursued more vigorously, but there are other laws I think should also be enforced more. Just, stop with your rants about how "aliens" are treated like they earn 230K. I don't know of anyone earning 230K that works 90 hours a week and shares a bedroom with 5 other people.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Jezo?

You also can live like livestock, use the ER as your medicine cabinet and pay nothing. Ever hear of homeless citizens?
You have the same choice they do. There are not different rules. Do you really think that the police and courts treat illegals better than citizens? You just sound foolish.
I think immigration laws should be pursued more vigorously, but there are other laws I think should also be enforced more. Just, stop with your rants about how "aliens" are treated like they earn 230K. I don't know of anyone earning 230K that works 90 hours a week and shares a bedroom with 5 other people.

Can you quit with your screenname conspiracy theories?

Yes the courts treat these people better. How many times have you seen that some drunk illegal getting into 5 DWI's and still allowed to slither in this country

Where I live theres a section where these illegal aliens gather , now that the gravy train is over they loiter all day. There are even porta potties paid for by my taxes for these dopes to to their business in. However they still piss all over the roads, drink in public and the cops hands are tied because the special interests and these hispanic organizations bitch and complain that these poor day laborers were targeted

Who works 90 hours a week these days? The gravy train is over, now they are swarming the soup kitchens

Yes an illegal alien makes that equivilant. In Mexico for example the average salary is about $1.00 an hour. They come here and make $6.00 an hour thats a 600% increase

The Average American salary is 40k a year a 600% increase is 240K. Not bad if someones an illiterate uneducated peasant who happened to make it across the border

[Syd]

Yes the courts treat these people better.

Are we talking about people who are rich? Or are we talking about white people?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Are we talking about people who are rich? Or are we talking about white people?

Or Rich Blacks like O J or Jayson Williams?

[Serpico1103]

Can you quit with your screenname conspiracy theories?

Yes the courts treat these people better. How many times have you seen that some drunk illegal getting into 5 DWI's and still allowed to slither in this country

Where I live theres a section where these illegal aliens gather , now that the gravy train is over they loiter all day. There are even porta potties paid for by my taxes for these dopes to to their business in. However they still piss all over the roads, drink in public and the cops hands are tied because the special interests and these hispanic organizations bitch and complain that these poor day laborers were targeted

Who works 90 hours a week these days? The gravy train is over, now they are swarming the soup kitchens

Yes an illegal alien makes that equivilant. In Mexico for example the average salary is about $1.00 an hour. They come here and make $6.00 an hour thats a 600% increase

The Average American salary is 40k a year a 600% increase is 240K. Not bad if someones an illiterate uneducated peasant who happened to make it across the border

So, ship your family over the border and send them money. No? That's your choice.
I understand the problem of immigration. But, you are not helping by sounding like such a radical. You sound like a lunatic and are therefore marginalizing yourself.

Who was using the soup kitchens before illegals? Oh right, CITIZENS. Again, the same treatment not better.

You want to talk about a disparity of treatment, talk about the class differences. Rich and poor. That is where the legal system is subverted. Not by a poor drunken illegal.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So, ship your family over the border and send them money. No? That's your choice.
I understand the problem of immigration. But, you are not helping by sounding like such a radical. You sound like a lunatic and are therefore marginalizing yourself.

Who was using the soup kitchens before illegals? Oh right, CITIZENS. Again, the same treatment not better.

You want to talk about a disparity of treatment, talk about the class differences. Rich and poor. That is where the legal system is subverted. Not by a poor drunken illegal.

Mexico actually enforces its immigration laws. So thats impossible

And why shouldn't an illegal alien be deported after committing a crime like drunk driving ?

These illegals dont want to freeze while living in encampments by the Hamptons because theres no work? Heres advice go the fuck home, its not cold in Latin America. Hell they should go back and enjoy their haciendas built with untaxed money

[Serpico1103]

Mexico actually enforces its immigration laws. So thats impossible

And why shouldn't an illegal alien be deported after committing a crime like drunk driving ?

These illegals dont want to freeze while living in encampments by the Hamptons because theres no work? Heres advice go the fuck home, its not cold in Latin America

I am not arguing what your opinion is- "Go home illegals."
I am arguing that the legal system is not perfect, but it does not favor illegals.

Someone with 5 DWIs should be in prison and maybe deported.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I am not arguing what your opinion is- "Go home illegals."
I am arguing that the legal system is not perfect, but it does not favor illegals.

Someone with 5 DWIs should be in prison and maybe deported.

Agreed in serious crimes like Murder, However if an illegal alien is pissing and drinking in Public the cops wont do anything, An American does that they get a summons

Kids skateboarding in front of a store, they get shoed away, Illegals loiter in front of a store same thing, the cops won't bother them

[WRESTLINGFAN]

More hard working Catholic Immigrants, with family values, trying to make a better life for themselves, After all they are stealing Jewelry that Americans won't steal. As much as its these cunts from Latin America's fault, the homeowners deserve no sympathy


http://www.lohud.com/article/20091216/NEWS03/912160374/Police-seek-to-question-cleaning-women-about-Monsey-jewelry-thefts

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal"
Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California ..


Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.


Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".


Ready? Now pay attention...


Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.


Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.


Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $24,031.00.

Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.

Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps and welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $9,631.00.


Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. JoseIllegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $ 31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal now has $7,231.00.

Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc.

Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.

Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.

Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

[Syd]

no social security number yet gets all these benefits

far out

lets throw out some more hypotheticals like what if Jimmy Superfly Snuka bodyslammed Steve Sarkisian, would that draw a penalty and would it be assessed against Washington's next opponent on their kickoff? Also as Snuka was born in Fiji yet Sarkisian was born right here in the US of A, would Snuka's actions draw your ire?

Really, you're grasping at straws and making a mountain out of a molehill. There are a million better examples of fraud and leeching off the system that do real damage and aren't as vital for the future of a country as immigration is.

[badmonkey]

no social security number yet gets all these benefits

far out

lets throw out some more hypotheticals like what if Jimmy Superfly Snuka bodyslammed Steve Sarkisian, would that draw a penalty and would it be assessed against Washington's next opponent on their kickoff? Also as Snuka was born in Fiji yet Sarkisian was born right here in the US of A, would Snuka's actions draw your ire?

Really, you're grasping at straws and making a mountain out of a molehill. There are a million better examples of fraud and leeching off the system that do real damage and aren't as vital for the future of a country as immigration is.

What are these million better examples and who is benefiting and what is the "real damage" they are doing and why aren't they as vital for the future of the country as immigration is? Do you know of any specific examples you can cite or did you pull that out of the same section of your ass where you found that awesome wrestling hypothetical?

Seriously, why don't you just take a picture of yourself with your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears and photoshop "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA!" on it and post that? It would be more intelligent and informative than your other non-arguments.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

2 of the biggest political whores Schumer and Gutierrez will be introducing shamnesty bills in each resprctive house. Are these fucking parasites that delusional to think it will pass?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

no social security number yet gets all these benefits

far out

lets throw out some more hypotheticals like what if Jimmy Superfly Snuka bodyslammed Steve Sarkisian, would that draw a penalty and would it be assessed against Washington's next opponent on their kickoff? Also as Snuka was born in Fiji yet Sarkisian was born right here in the US of A, would Snuka's actions draw your ire?

Really, you're grasping at straws and making a mountain out of a molehill. There are a million better examples of fraud and leeching off the system that do real damage and aren't as vital for the future of a country as immigration is.

Their jackpot babies allow them to reap the benefits courtesy of the Taxpayer

[Syd]

What are these million better examples and who is benefiting and what is the "real damage" they are doing and why aren't they as vital for the future of the country as immigration is?

For starters WalMart workers are more likely than not on forms of federal or state aid due to their low wages and limited hours. They should be deported from the country since they're basically leeching off of taxpayers and contribution nothing of worth to society the same way illegal immigrants are. Considering how much cheaper it is to send police or other agents to a store to round up workers and get rid of them compared to the wide-ranging manhunt needed to deport illegal immigrants, it's a much more attractive to the solution of low-value persons.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

For starters WalMart workers are more likely than not on forms of federal or state aid due to their low wages and limited hours. They should be deported from the country since they're basically leeching off of taxpayers and contribution nothing of worth to society the same way illegal immigrants are. Considering how much cheaper it is to send police or other agents to a store to round up workers and get rid of them compared to the wide-ranging manhunt needed to deport illegal immigrants, it's a much more attractive to the solution of low-value persons.

How can you deport an American citizen? They are AUTHORIZED to work


It would cost about 94 billion dollars to deport illegal aliens. Thats a huge savings compared to the hundreds of billions annually these mopes cost the taxpayer

Mass deportation happened before heres an example

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/1414426/posts

I oppose all illegal immigration, However I dont care if it sounds controversial but People from Latin America are the biggest group of illegal aliens coming here with their hands out, Every story about social services, soup kitchens etc, the ones from Latin America are always there, its like a bird feeder, its like they are owed something, they cant pull their own weight

[Syd]

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

citation A

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
citation B

Since hyperbole isn't working....that right there is the case for not deporting illegal immigrants and working towards amnesty and a more sensible immigration policy. Like it or not, the 14th says there are protections afforded anyone within our borders. If you don't like the amendment, overturn it or go back in time and fight a little harder for the Confederacy.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

citation A


citation B

Since hyperbole isn't working....that right there is the case for not deporting illegal immigrants and working towards amnesty and a more sensible immigration policy. Like it or not, the 14th says there are protections afforded anyone within our borders. If you don't like the amendment, overturn it or go back in time and fight a little harder for the Confederacy.

Some inscription at the base of a statue isn't law

WRONG!!! The 14th ammendment was never interpreted to afford citizenship rights to jackpot babies as it was intended for free slaves, swing and a miss

Federal immigration laws mean nothing to you. Wanna get constitutional well read this



US Constitution, Article 4, Section 4: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; James Madison: "When we are considering the advantages that may result from an easy mode of naturalization, we ought also to consider the cautions necessary to guard against abuses … aliens might acquire the right of citizenship, and return to the country from which they came, and evade the laws intended to encourage the commerce and industry of the real citizens and inhabitants of America, enjoying at the same time all the advantages of citizens…"

I challenge you to keep your doors unlocked and allow everyone in and that demand that you cook and clean for them and wipe their asses, c'mon after all if they get in , they get to stay

After all we are babysitting 20 million people and their jackpot babies

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If the fucking laws were actually enforced none of these lowlife dirtbag illegal aliens would have been here, Cheap labor kills

http://www.voiac.org/

[Ritalin]

Jackpot babies.

[Syd]

Some inscription at the base of a statue isn't law

WRONG!!! The 14th ammendment was never interpreted to afford citizenship rights to jackpot babies as it was intended for free slaves, swing and a miss

Uh yeah that was the first part of the 14th, the entire amendment however was a safeguard to prevent the tyranny of the masses on any people

it's sort of the biggest thing in democracy and the pursuit of absolute freedom since the magna carta papers

Anyway, i'm particularly appalled by your thoughts on this matter. You act like all you have to do is be unemployed and homeless and your life is so set, yet whenever I come across a homeless person they're absolutely destitute. I'm glad I was lucky enough to grow up in a particularly diverse area I guess.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Uh yeah that was the first part of the 14th, the entire amendment however was a safeguard to prevent the tyranny of the masses on any people

it's sort of the biggest thing in democracy and the pursuit of absolute freedom since the magna carta papers

Anyway, i'm particularly appalled by your thoughts on this matter. You act like all you have to do is be unemployed and homeless and your life is so set, yet whenever I come across a homeless person they're absolutely destitute. I'm glad I was lucky enough to grow up in a particularly diverse area I guess.

Article 4 section 4 is in the constitution to safeguard us from this anarchy, but the politicians and special interests don't give a fuck

You once again validated my point, as we have too many people in this country that have to be taken care of, Why should we be obligated to babysit someone who hopped a fence and snuck in here and his entire family?

I have no pity for an illegal alien who decided to leave his home country knowing that he has a chance of being arrested and deported for jumping the line and sneaking in. Im for immigration the right way

[Serpico1103]

Agreed in serious crimes like Murder, However if an illegal alien is pissing and drinking in Public the cops wont do anything, An American does that they get a summons

Kids skateboarding in front of a store, they get shoed away, Illegals loiter in front of a store same thing, the cops won't bother them

Are you serious?
I believe cops ignore many crimes for many different reasons.
But, I refuse to believe they watch immigrants piss in public and just watch.

Again, you are making yourself into a character.
Yes, we need to enforce our laws. Maybe, we need to strengthen them.
But, your take is chicken little at best, mental illness at worst.

Are the illegals skateboarding? Than where is the comparison?
I understand police are not vigilant in enforcing immigration laws, but they do enforce criminal laws against immigrants. There is a major difference and I think you are missing it.

[Syd]

Article 4 section 4 is in the constitution to safeguard us from this anarchy, but the politicians and special interests don't give a fuck

You once again validated my point, as we have too many people in this country that have to be taken care of, Why should we be obligated to babysit someone who hopped a fence and snuck in here and his entire family?

I have no pity for an illegal alien who decided to leave his home country knowing that he has a chance of being arrested and deported for jumping the line and sneaking in. Im for immigration the right way

I don't know, maybe because that really is the American way? A great deal many Americans became Americans the same way these "illegals" do now. My family illegally crossed the border and spoke another language but we and the country managed to do just fine.

[Serpico1103]

I don't know, maybe because that really is the American way? A great deal many Americans became Americans the same way these "illegals" do now. My family illegally crossed the border and spoke another language but we and the country managed to do just fine.

What is your parents current address, INS wants to send them a Xmas card. That is if those dirty illegal aliens worship a true god and not some animal spirit and elemental deity.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Are you serious?
I believe cops ignore many crimes for many different reasons.
But, I refuse to believe they watch immigrants piss in public and just watch.

Again, you are making yourself into a character.
Yes, we need to enforce our laws. Maybe, we need to strengthen them.
But, your take is chicken little at best, mental illness at worst.

Are the illegals skateboarding? Than where is the comparison?
I understand police are not vigilant in enforcing immigration laws, but they do enforce criminal laws against immigrants. There is a major difference and I think you are missing it.

The point is that these crybaby special interest groups bitch and complain. They file grievences and lawsuits

Illegals arent skateboarding but they are loitering, exposing themselves to women on their way to the train, It always happens especially where they converge

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What is your parents current address, INS wants to send them a Xmas card. That is if those dirty illegal aliens worship a true god and not some animal spirit and elemental deity.

The illegals are mainly Catholic, thats another reason why the Church is for flooding the gates, their membership is dwindling so they rely on uneducated peasants to fill the Churches on Sundays

Why would they even get Christmas cards a huge majority of illegals are illiterate in 2 languages

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I don't know, maybe because that really is the American way? A great deal many Americans became Americans the same way these "illegals" do now. My family illegally crossed the border and spoke another language but we and the country managed to do just fine.

Please give me your address and make sure your doors are unlocked, tomorrow morning I will tell the illegals at the local hiring site that theres a huge party at your house and they never have to leave, Im sure you wouldnt mind 100 amigos barging in

[Ritalin]

I don't know, maybe because that really is the American way? A great deal many Americans became Americans the same way these "illegals" do now. My family illegally crossed the border and spoke another language but we and the country managed to do just fine.

I'm not a huge Wrestling Fan fan - I think he has valid points but is too wound up with buzzword language - but I have to jump in here. The fact that your family immigrated illegally has no bearing on whether or not we as a country should legitimize people who are here illegally now. If anything, giving amnesty to illegals here now just creates incentives for
people to continue to illegally immigrate.

I don't think there can be much arguement about that.

(I also don't believe that's the American Way. Yes, immigration built this country, but not the way you suggest.)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I'm not a huge Wrestling Fan fan - I think he has valid points but is too wound up with buzzword language - but I have to jump in here. The fact that your family immigrated illegally has no bearing on whether or not we as a country should legitimize people who are here illegally now. If anything, giving amnesty to illegals here now just creates incentives for
people to continue to illegally immigrate.

I don't think there can be much arguement about that.

Exactly!!! 20 million illegal aliens get legalized which only encourages more people to break the law, Plus it will allow for chain migration, So that means 10's of millions of more people in an already overcrowded country


Theres a difference between how the Europeans came and whats going on today

This latest proposal states that someone will pay a fine of only $500. Pass a stopped school bus and you will pay more than that

[Serpico1103]

The point is that these crybaby special interest groups bitch and complain. They file grievences and lawsuits

Illegals arent skateboarding but they are loitering, exposing themselves to women on their way to the train, It always happens especially where they converge

I am sure they commit crimes. But, I am sure kids also commit crimes.

You complain about filing grievances and lawsuits, but that is our system. If you don't like it, you don't like our system.
Special interests have power because the majority is lazy. Whose fault is that?
"Special interest" has become another negative buzzword like liberal. There is a strong argument that our greatest citizens are the ACLU. They believe in the rights granted by the constitution and fight for everyone to enjoy them. Someone who fights in a war and than wants to take away someone's freedom (speech, press, religion) is not a patriot.

If you are serious about your immigration concern I would suggest controlling your anger and try to be more understanding. Your polarizing approach will not gain you any support.

You have such anger and hatred for the "illegals." How do you feel about people that settle in another country and systematically slaughter the inhabitants? Disregarding their rights and claims?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I am sure they commit crimes. But, I am sure kids also commit crimes.

You complain about filing grievances and lawsuits, but that is our system. If you don't like it, you don't like our system.
Special interests have power because the majority is lazy. Whose fault is that?
"Special interest" has become another negative buzzword like liberal. There is a strong argument that our greatest citizens are the ACLU. They believe in the rights granted by the constitution and fight for everyone to enjoy them. Someone who fights in a war and than wants to take away someone's freedom (speech, press, religion) is not a patriot.

If you are serious about your immigration concern I would suggest controlling your anger and try to be more understanding. Your polarizing approach will not gain you any support.

You have such anger and hatred for the "illegals." How do you feel about people that settle in another country and systematically slaughter the inhabitants? Disregarding their rights and claims?


So should the ACLU condone bankrobbers, after all maybe they just needed some money, Last time I checked Its illegal to rob a Bank

You fail to mention that my anger isnt just at the illegal aliens, but also their enablers, employers etc. I think you try to visualize anyone opposed to this problem hates Mexicans or brown people when the problem lies that the laws are not enforced, politicians look the other way and the illegals think that they have a right to be here Let the other countries deal with their problems, We should be tackling the illegal immigration problem here

[Syd]

I'm not a huge Wrestling Fan fan - I think he has valid points but is too wound up with buzzword language - but I have to jump in here.

His points are valid but they run entirely counter to established procedures. I'm for immigration reform and more open borders to stem the need for illegal immigration.

The fact that your family immigrated illegally has no bearing on whether or not we as a country should legitimize people who are here illegally now. If anything, giving amnesty to illegals here now just creates incentives for
people to continue to illegally immigrate.

My illegal immigration has no bearing, but people shouldn't kid themselves that anyone has put any effort into immigration until recently.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

His points are valid but they run entirely counter to established procedures. I'm for immigration reform and more open borders to stem the need for illegal immigration.



My illegal immigration has no bearing, but people shouldn't kid themselves that anyone has put any effort into immigration until recently.

This problem Has been spiraling out of control since 1965, In 1986 Reagan agreed to sign Simpson Mazzoli which at the time there were about 3mm lllegals who were given Amnesty. Congress never lived up to their end of the deal and as a result we have this Tsunami today

[Ritalin]

His points are valid but they run entirely counter to established procedures. I'm for immigration reform and more open borders to stem the need for illegal immigration.



My illegal immigration has no bearing, but people shouldn't kid themselves that anyone has put any effort into immigration until recently.

actually, we went through this in the 80's. Gave people amnesty. And, here we are again.

[Syd]

amnesty only matters when you have immigration reform and have some sensible system to allow for immigration

Right now facism/nationalism guides immigration laws which does exactly squat to stem the tide.

[epo]

Wait until the brown people take over! Stop them now! (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/ap_on_go_ot/us_white_minority)

The estimated time when whites will no longer make up the majority of Americans has been pushed back eight years — to 2050 — because the recession and stricter immigration policies have slowed the flow of foreigners into the U.S.

Census Bureau figures released Wednesday update last year's prediction that white children would become a minority in 2023 and the overall white population would follow in 2042. The earlier estimate did not take into account a drop in the number of people moving into the U.S. because of the economic crisis and the immigration policies imposed after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

The total population should climb to 399 million by 2050, under the new projection, with whites making up 49.9 percent of the population. Blacks will make up 12.2 percent, virtually unchanged from today. Hispanics, currently 15 percent of the population, will rise to 28 percent in 2050.

[K.C.]

GO BACK to Africa!!!!!!


Wait.....what minority...?


GO BACK to Mexico!!!!!!!

[Ritalin]

amnesty only matters when you have immigration reform and have some sensible system to allow for immigration

Right now facism/nationalism guides immigration laws which does exactly squat to stem the tide.

Syd, you kinda don't know what you're talking about, and when you start using big words like facism you come off like Wrestling Fan. The immigration debate in this country is being driven by two political parties trying recruit the next big wave of voters. Spinning off of Epo's post, there's going to be a big block of new voters in this country in 20 years. The Republicans feel they have as good a shot at them as the Dems. Both parties are willing to sell out the wishes of their core constituencies in order to woo that block. I say that because I think if polled people across the political spectrum with straightforward questions about immigration and amnesty more than half would be opposed to immigration reform that doesn't address illegals.

Especially in this economic environment.

[epo]

Proving that immigration issue republicans don't give a shit about the economy: (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/ap_on_go_ot/us_white_minority)

As a result, the Census Bureau said the projections should be used mostly as a guide.

The agency also released numbers showing projections based on "high" rates of immigration — more likely if more-flexible government policies and a booming U.S. economy attract large numbers of foreigners — as well as "low" immigration, a possible scenario if U.S. policies don't change much while the economy substantially improves.

_With high immigration, the minority "tipping point" is moved up to 2040, two years earlier than the previous estimate. At that time, Asians would have a much larger share, at 8 percent, since their population growth is more dependent on immigration than birth rates.

_With low immigration, the "tipping point" arrives by 2045.

Under a purely theoretical "zero immigration" scenario in which the U.S. effectively does not take in any immigrants, whites would remain the majority in 2050, making up a solid 58 percent of the U.S. population. In such a case, the share of Hispanics would increase to 21 percent because of high fertility rates and a younger population.

Under a "zero immigration" model, the 65 and older population also grows substantially faster, comprising nearly 1 in 4 Americans.

"These projections show that immigration will serve to replenish our labor force as baby boomers age into retirement and make our population younger without overburdening our schools and other community resources," said William H. Frey, a demographer at Brookings Institution.

[JohnCharles]

Send them all to Canada and let them deal with it.

[badmonkey]

Proving that immigration issue republicans don't give a shit about the economy: (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/ap_on_go_ot/us_white_minority)

"These projections show that immigration will serve to replenish our labor force as baby boomers age into retirement and make our population younger without overburdening our schools and other community resources," said William H. Frey, a demographer at Brookings Institution.

Why would we need to replace our labor force? At the rate your heroes are going "fixing the economy", the job market should be small enough to handle the depleted work force.