Obama - Worst President Ever?

[sailor]

We are..but not by much and not for long..
We've been #1 since WWI and China is set to surpass us like yesterday..
I take no comfort in our current #1 ranking, it's weak, very weak..

we currently have a tenuous grasp on #1 (since the 1890s) but there's no reason china shouldn't be number 1 with their abundant, cheap labor. my reason for bringing it up tho is people (like you did) act like manufacturing has died in this country and it's obviously not the case.

[jonyrotn]

we currently have a tenuous grasp on #1 (since the 1890s) but there's no reason china shouldn't be number 1 with their abundant, cheap labor. my reason for bringing it up tho is people (like you did) act like manufacturing has died in this country and it's obviously not the case.
Being 35 games up at the Allstar break is a much different type of #1 then being a half game up on the last game of the season, which is were we are now..

[StanUpshaw]

And it really blows, you know, cuz I wanted my kids to grow up and work in a factory.

[jonyrotn]

And it really blows, you know, cuz I wanted my kids to grow up and work in a factory.
I respected you till you said that...
Right now you're part of the problem and your critical thinking is suspect..
Don't be a Stan your whole life..

[sailor]

Being 35 games up at the Allstar break is a much different type of #1 then being a half game up on the last game of the season, which is were we are now..

regardless, we're number one. even if we were number three, it's silly to act like there's no industry here or you can't find any usa made products if you wanted.

[jonyrotn]

regardless, we're number one. even if we were number three, it's silly to act like there's no industry here or you can't find any usa made products if you wanted.
I respect your opinion on this topic Sailor but I see the loss of any middle class jobs in our country as a HUGE problem..It's the classicide of the demographic that made our nation what it is..You can't build an economy based on the service industry, eventually you have make tangable things that people want..That's the clearest example of the "gold standard" there is..

[Dudeman]

I respect your opinion on this topic Sailor but I see the loss of any middle class jobs in our country as a HUGE problem..It's the classicide of the demographic that made our nation what it is..You can't build an economy based on the service industry, eventually you have make tangable things that people want..That's the clearest example of the "gold standard" there is..

If there were rankings of manufacture industry workers' rights/protections/working conditions, how would the US compare? If the regulations required to maintain better working conditions than say China or Mexico are causing companies to take those jobs outside of the country should we remove those protections?

[jonyrotn]

If there were rankings of manufacture industry workers' rights/protections/working conditions, how would the US compare? If the regulations required to maintain better working conditions than say China or Mexico are causing companies to take those jobs outside of the country should we remove those protections?
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww343/ty-ers/100_8233.jpg
That eas my original point..The federal government chased everyone away..They regulate every aspect of every industry and tax at twice the rate as most nations..They intentionally made it financially impossible for product producing companies, big and small..I have a lot more to say on this subject but I hate my swype keyboard...

[jonyrotn]

regardless, we're number one. even if we were number three, it's silly to act like there's no industry here or you can't find any usa made products if you wanted.
If there were not a war right now and defense contractors were manufacturing at peace time production rates where would we rank..That's our chief manufactured product and our taxes buy everything single thing they turn out..

[StanUpshaw]

I respected you till you said that...
Right now you're part of the problem and your critical thinking is suspect..
Don't be a Stan your whole life..

I respect your opinion on this topic Sailor but I see the loss of any middle class jobs in our country as a HUGE problem..It's the classicide of the demographic that made our nation what it is..You can't build an economy based on the service industry, eventually you have make tangable things that people want..That's the clearest example of the "gold standard" there is..

Your worldview is the refrain from a John Mellencamp song, yet I'm the one who lacks critical thinking. :wink:

[jonyrotn]

Your worldview is the refrain from a John Mellencamp song, yet I'm the one who lacks critical thinking. :wink:
If you want a "witty banter" war you're challenging the wrong guy, I can sure you of that..If you want a debate with your opinion as the underpinning of your stance then once again, you have the wrong guy..I've made an entire life out of making sense out of what's in front of me, facts only..So if you care to debate facts, me and john mellencamp are in..You're clearly a smart dude but you're are allowing your own views to cloud your vision and you're not processing the facts..

[Dudeman]

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww343/ty-ers/100_8233.jpg
That eas my original point..The federal government chased everyone away..They regulate every aspect of every industry and tax at twice the rate as most nations..They intentionally made it financially impossible for product producing companies, big and small..I have a lot more to say on this subject but I hate my swype keyboard...

So it would be better to have the working conditions/ worker protections as in China or Mexico?

[jonyrotn]

So it would be better to have the working conditions/ worker protections as in China or Mexico?
Absolutely not..But unions do a better then great job of keeping checks on working condition..The government has slowly legislated itself into every aspect of our life we don't even notice when it hurts far more then it helps..

[StanUpshaw]

If you want a "witty banter" war you're challenging the wrong guy, I can sure you of that..If you want a debate with your opinion as the underpinning of your stance then once again, you have the wrong guy..I've made an entire life out of making sense out of what's in front of me, facts only..So if you care to debate facts, me and john mellencamp are in..You're clearly a smart dude but you're are allowing your own views to cloud your vision and you're not processing the facts..

But so far you've voiced nothing but opinions and assertions.

Why is it important to beat China in manufacturing?
What defines middle class?
What is wrong with an economy based on the service industry?
Why do we have make tangible things?

You're arguing for this romantic blue collar mythology, but until you actually define some criteria, I have nothing to poke holes in...I can only to poke fun.

[Dudeman]

Absolutely not..But unions do a better then great job of keeping checks on working condition..The government has slowly legislated itself into every aspect of our life we don't even notice when it hurts far more then it helps..

There is a happy medium that needs to be found.

On one hand, the government has to allow a business to function without overbearing regulations that deal with issues that don't really exist. It costs money to have better/safer working conditions for workers. The money spent to have those better working conditions, and the money to pay for the government regulators to investigate and enforce safe working conditions, decrease a company's profit.

On the other hand, we want to ensure safe working conditions. And we need to have some way of investigating and ensuring that companies are providing safe conditions for our workers.

Overarching generalized statements, however, don't help finding the happy medium necessary to deal with this issue: Not all businesses are bad, trying to exploit the working man by having the worst working conditions necessary to have the highest profit margin. On the other hand, not all government regulations are over-bearing hassles that serve no purpose but to drive companies to China and Mexico.



For those who feel that government regulations aren't needed, I'd recommend reading and watching these stories about McWane Inc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McWane

McWane Inc. has been criticised for its unsafe practices cited by a number of media articles. In 2003 PBS Frontline in cooperation with the New York Times and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation investigated the company, calling McWane one of the most dangerous work places in America as a contributor to multiple deaths at its numerous foundries. The documentary is called A Dangerous Business. The writers claim that McWane has ignored worker and environmental safety to focus on production and profitability.
In the U.S., between 1995 and 2003, McWane has been found in violation of U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) regulations more than four hundred times. In the same time period, 4,600 workers have been injured in McWane's foundries. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McWane)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/mcwane/

[jonyrotn]

Great post but please realize that this occurred while government specs were in place...In other words, companies that are predesposed toward intentional criminal behavior are not going to be regulated into law abiding companies..Just look at the way the companies involved with the BP clean up behaved..Wanton disregard for regs at every level..
Capital punishment is not gonna stop a stone cold murderer from killing when the urge strikes, but you and I don't need that as a deturant..We police our own behavior...
Btw, I consider myself a huge liberal but I refuse to blindly walk lockstep and toe the party line so I can fit into a labled box..

[Syd]

The big reason why industry fled was due to the lack of tariffs. When it became absurdly cheap to outsource/import, companies did so.

Regulations had nothing to do with it, unless you mean deregulations, since deregulation happened at exactly the same time as industry leaving the country and became a less significant portion of the American economy.

The only thing that will fix it is if you convince people that paying a bit more for their consumer goods is better in the end run.

[Dudeman]

Great post but please realize that this occurred while government specs were in place

Yes, they occurred while "specs were in place", but
-is justification to strip the regulations, or is it justification to look into how to make them better?
-would conditions be better, worse, or the same if we decrease the regulations, or more importantly, if we decrease the ability of the regulatory agencies to enforce the regulations?


(As a corollary, the free market, for all of its positives, can't appropriately deal with this situation. First, most consumers, not all, do go for price over company citizenship. Secondly, there are often multiple step between the manufacturing and the product getting to the consumer- one can't reasonably expect every consumer to track down the manufacturing history of each product they purchase.)

[Dudeman]

The only thing that will fix it is if you convince people that paying a bit more for their consumer goods is better in the end run.

And convince the business that being a better "citizen" is better in the long run too.

[extracheese]

whats for dinner?

[hanso]

The taxation on industry is done on a local level. Right now all of the tea party governors are lowering the corporate tax rate on the backs of the poor, sick and elderly.

Not only is this a backward robin hood scenario. It is throwing good money away. As corporations find ways not to pay taxes as it is.

On top of that when a company looks to set up shop tax breaks are not the driving factor. Education and quality of life are a few factors among others.

[StanUpshaw]

I do get a kick out out of it when people who tend to be so bleeding heart about so many things, argue for US protectionism...as if we need to secure a bigger piece of the pie all for ourselves.

"Sure, globalism has raised standards of living exponentially across the globe, but we're AMERICANS! We DESERVE $30/hr plus benefits, plus a pension. Sri Lankans took our jobs?? Fuck em, let them scratch in the dirt like the dogs they are."

[Obviously I don't think that's what they believe...but they never seem to factor that in. That's when you know it's just the regurgitation of political rhetoric, not any sort of reasoned analysis of the matter.]

[Crispy123]

its not fuck them scratch in the dirt. more like, if you want to be paid what your worth, unionize and fight for your rights.

[jonyrotn]

But so far you've voiced nothing but opinions and assertions.

Why is it important to beat China in manufacturing?
What defines middle class?
What is wrong with an economy based on the service industry?
Why do we have make tangible things?

You're arguing for this romantic blue collar mythology, but until you actually define some criteria, I have nothing to poke holes in...I can only to poke fun. Sorry Stan, I missed this post somehow..
1) It's not important to beat china..It's was important however, to A) keep the jobs we had and B) even more importantly, hang onto what's left..
2) The middle class is the backbone of our society..They allow, (less and less these days) via disposable income the existence of the service industry..I'm not asserting that all blue collar workers are middle class, not by a long shot but they do percentage wise, make up a substantial portion..
I'm a single, childless 40 year old retired civil servant and this year I'll bring home a net retirement income of $124k without working a single day, so this effects my bottom line very little..I don't live the "american dream" by any stretch, but it does afford me the opportunity to live life to it's fullest if I so choose...I do however, have friends who's household income is just as much but they have a house, a wife and a few kids and can't even afford a day trip to yankee stadium..Many of what was the middle class now live borderline paycheck to paycheck existences... Whereas, just one generation ago, even adjusted for inflation that type of income would have placed you squarely in the middle of the upper tier of the middle class..When you make observations like that you need to ask yourself why, what's changed and what forces are at work behind the changes..
3) It's the same as the gold standard..You have a tangable item to back up your economy..For instance, if you go belly up financially and own nothing you're fucked and you stay broke..If you go belly up financially and have a home full of shit to sell, you're not broke, you have shit to back up your cash...

[Syd]

I do get a kick out out of it when people who tend to be so bleeding heart about so many things, argue for US protectionism...as if we need to secure a bigger piece of the pie all for ourselves.

"Sure, globalism has raised standards of living exponentially across the globe, but we're AMERICANS! We DESERVE $30/hr plus benefits, plus a pension. Sri Lankans took our jobs?? Fuck em, let them scratch in the dirt like the dogs they are."

[Obviously I don't think that's what they believe...but they never seem to factor that in. That's when you know it's just the regurgitation of political rhetoric, not any sort of reasoned analysis of the matter.]

Simple answer is not fuck them, but rather they need to organize themselves and build up their own middle class. Right now all they are is wage slaves to the Western middle class -- sure they're making marginally more than what they were farming dirt, but, there's not exactly class mobility there. You get elevated off the farm and cemented in the lowest rung of industrial society.

[StanUpshaw]

Simple answer is not fuck them, but rather they need to organize themselves and build up their own middle class. Right now all they are is wage slaves to the Western middle class -- sure they're making marginally more than what they were farming dirt, but, there's not exactly class mobility there. You get elevated off the farm and cemented in the lowest rung of industrial society.

Tell that to the Tigers.

And hell, China itself.

[jonyrotn]

Yes, they occurred while "specs were in place", but
-is justification to strip the regulations, or is it justification to look into how to make them better?
-would conditions be better, worse, or the same if we decrease the regulations, or more importantly, if we decrease the ability of the regulatory agencies to enforce the regulations?


(As a corollary, the free market, for all of its positives, can't appropriately deal with this situation. First, most consumers, not all, do go for price over company citizenship. Secondly, there are often multiple step between the manufacturing and the product getting to the consumer- one can't reasonably expect every consumer to track down the manufacturing history of each product they purchase.)
Either I failed to get my point across our you're changing the issue on the floor...Please let me know which..

[jonyrotn]

I do get a kick out out of it when people who tend to be so bleeding heart about so many things, argue for US protectionism...as if we need to secure a bigger piece of the pie all for ourselves.

"Sure, globalism has raised standards of living exponentially across the globe, but we're AMERICANS! We DESERVE $30/hr plus benefits, plus a pension. Sri Lankans took our jobs?? Fuck em, let them scratch in the dirt like the dogs they are."

[Obviously I don't think that's what they believe...but they never seem to factor that in. That's when you know it's just the regurgitation of political rhetoric, not any sort of reasoned analysis of the matter.]
I dismiss this argument out of hand as inapplicable..
We're talking about the decline in this country's long time standard of living..I thank my lucky stars I was born here and I'd prefer that coming generations feel the same way..You can call it American arrogance if you'd like but it's really just looking after the home-front..Tribalism is one of our most powerful natural instincts..

[jonyrotn]

its not fuck them scratch in the dirt. more like, if you want to be paid what your worth, unionize and fight for your rights.
Great points syd but lets agree the biggest enemy to industry staying put has been the government intrusiont, on all levels..And I was arguing that legislation (tariffs included) is what killed the industrial revolution..

[jonyrotn]

Yes, they occurred while "specs were in place", but
-is justification to strip the regulations, or is it justification to look into how to make them better?
-would conditions be better, worse, or the same if we decrease the regulations, or more importantly, if we decrease the ability of the regulatory agencies to enforce the regulations?


(As a corollary, the free market, for all of its positives, can't appropriately deal with this situation. First, most consumers, not all, do go for price over company citizenship. Secondly, there are often multiple step between the manufacturing and the product getting to the consumer- one can't reasonably expect every consumer to track down the manufacturing history of each product they purchase.)
This is the most well thought out post I've ever read from you (prolly cuz I usually avoid them, but no longer)..Every thing you state is on point and it's clear you could argue either side.. It's my belief though that many of theses issues are easily remedied if addressed, but they'll never be revisited because legislation is nearlynearly impossible to repeal..

[Dudeman]

Great points syd but lets agree the biggest enemy to industry staying put has been the government intrusiont, on all levels..

I disagree. I think the biggest enemy to industry staying put has been the availability of cheap labor (less safe working conditions, lower wages, longer hours) in other countries and the willingness of business to use that workforce to increase their profits rather than use the US workforce.

But the reality is that it is some of both. The starting point of the discussion can't be which is the "biggest enemy"; rather it has to be what is the ideal situation (the ideal mixture of necessary protections without losing the business altogether) and then how do we get there.

Arguing over which side is worse does no good. Completely stating that the other side is terrible is only frustrating, and makes one's own argument weaker because it fails to recognize the legitimate concerns of the other side.

[Zorro]

its not fuck them scratch in the dirt. more like, if you want to be paid what your worth, unionize and fight for your rights.

Worked great for all those textile employees in the Carolinas.

[jonyrotn]

I disagree. I think the biggest enemy to industry staying put has been the availability of cheap labor (less safe working conditions, lower wages, longer hours) in other countries and the willingness of business to use that workforce to increase their profits rather than use the US workforce.

But the reality is that it is some of both. The starting point of the discussion can't be which is the "biggest enemy"; rather it has to be what is the ideal situation (the ideal mixture of necessary protections without losing the business altogether) and then how do we get there.

Arguing over which side is worse does no good. Completely stating that the other side is terrible is only frustrating, and makes one's own argument weaker because it fails to recognize the legitimate concerns of the other side.
Absolutely..This is a perfect example of what should of happened but their are forces at work behind the scenes that made sure it never paned out this way..Rich people and politicans call it the invisable hand and government i's at least two fingers and the thumb of said hand..

[StanUpshaw]

Sorry Stan, I missed this post somehow..
1) It's not important to beat china..It's was important however, to A) keep the jobs we had and B) even more importantly, hang onto what's left..
2) The middle class is the backbone of our society..They allow, (less and less these days) via disposable income the existence of the service industry..I'm not asserting that all blue collar workers are middle class, not by a long shot but they do percentage wise, make up a substantial portion..
I'm a single, childless 40 year old retired civil servant and this year I'll bring home a net retirement income of $124k without working a single day, so this effects my bottom line very little..I don't live the "american dream" by any stretch, but it does afford me the opportunity to live life to it's fullest if I so choose...I do however, have friends who's household income is just as much but they have a house, a wife and a few kids and can't even afford a day trip to yankee stadium..Many of what was the middle class now live borderline paycheck to paycheck existences... Whereas, just one generation ago, even adjusted for inflation that type of income would have placed you squarely in the middle of the upper tier of the middle class..When you make observations like that you need to ask yourself why, what's changed and what forces are at work behind the changes..
3) It's the same as the gold standard..You have a tangable item to back up your economy..For instance, if you go belly up financially and own nothing you're fucked and you stay broke..If you go belly up financially and have a home full of shit to sell, you're not broke, you have shit to back up your cash...

Why is it important to keep lower skilled, lower paying jobs, when you can (as we have) evolve into an economy based upon higher skilled, higher paying, more specialized and more technical jobs? Again, you're making assertions without giving any of those facts you claimed to have. Personal anecdotes are not facts.

The facts are (taken from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States)) that every income level has seen gains since the decline of manufacturing. Obviously with the ones at the top are gaining at a much higher rate, which probably has to do with the decline of the union (and is what I think you're really pining for).

http://i.imgur.com/djSEN.png


And your last point makes no sense. People can still buy shit with their income, regardless of how they earned that income.

[StanUpshaw]

I dismiss this argument out of hand as inapplicable..
We're talking about the decline in this country's long time standard of living..I thank my lucky stars I was born here and I'd prefer that coming generations feel the same way..You can call it American arrogance if you'd like but it's really just looking after the home-front..Tribalism is one of our most powerful natural instincts..

It wasn't aimed at you. Just a related observation.

[Zorro]

Just in case anyone needed reminding the World sucks. America's day has come and gone. Hell, I'm not even sure for many of our citizens there ever was a day, but whatever it's over. We're an international joke. Just a giant pyriamid scheme waiting to collapse.

[Zorro]

http://i.imgur.com/djSEN.png


And your last point makes no sense. People can still buy shit with their income, regardless of how they earned that income.

Only because it needs to be asked. Adjusted for inflation?

[StanUpshaw]

Only because it needs to be asked. Adjusted for inflation?

On the left side is says "Income in 2007 US$"

[underdog]

All I got from that graph is that US incomes suck.

[jonyrotn]

Why is it important to keep lower skilled, lower paying jobs, when you can (as we have) evolve into an economy based upon higher skilled, higher paying, more specialized and more technical jobs? Again, you're making assertions without giving any of those facts you claimed to have. Personal anecdotes are not facts.

The facts are (taken from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States)) that every income level has seen gains since the decline of manufacturing. Obviously with the ones at the top are gaining at a much higher rate, which probably has to do with the decline of the union (and is what I think you're really pining for).

http://i.imgur.com/djSEN.png


And your last point makes no sense. People can still buy shit with their income, regardless of how they earned that income.
Cross the board hyper-inflation alone cuts this chart off at the knees.. A 10% raise today represents a 2% raise 20 years ago..
Reread the end of the post you quoated, you're not reading it right..
And yes, unions/associations are necessary in almost all work situations, there needs to be employee representation..I don't see how anyone can argue that..
There's no proof that a service based economy can't work, because it's never been implemented, but if you ready think about it, it doesn't even pass the "reasonable man's test"..
Just like the housing and dot com bubbles didn't..All three are based on a state of mind, nothing more..The first two burst and history ALWAYS repeats it's self..You think it will thrive because somebody told you it will thive..But if you really try and think about what makes it sound you'll find that there's nothing sound about it..

[jonyrotn]

And your last point makes no sense. People can still buy shit with their income, regardless of how they earned that income.
The point was to illustrate that if two individuals each make the same amount, one spends all his money at the tittie bar and the other spends his on baseball cards, then both suffer the same financial disaster..Who's micro-economy will continue on until the hardship has passed?

[StanUpshaw]

I still have no idea what you're saying.

Are you talking about producing or consuming? Because if you think the amount of tangible goods people own has gone down in the last 50 years, I have a feeling you're super fucking wrong.

[jonyrotn]

I still have no idea what you're saying.

Are you talking about producing or consuming? Because if you think the amount of tangible goods people own has gone down in the last 50 years, I have a feeling you're super fucking wrong.
No..not even close..One person's has tangable items of worth to get through the lean times amd one has nothing..Once a service based economy depresses where do you turn, you have nothing to zerk on ebay to keep your economy afloat..

[StanUpshaw]

No..not even close..One person's has tangable items of worth to get through the lean times amd one has nothing..Once a service based economy depresses where do you turn, you have nothing to zerk on ebay to keep your economy afloat..

What is this imaginary land where nobody owns anything? We have more shit than ever you fucking loon.

[Dude!]

"intellectual property" is still property
and we have loads of that...
the world loves to buy our systems
and software and books and music
and films and magazines etc
not to mention our planes and
miltary hardware and not to mention
our agricultural output...everyone in
the world eats!

that being said, it would be nice
if we still had some factories
that made things like furniture

[jonyrotn]

What is this imaginary land where nobody owns anything? We have more shit than ever you fucking loon.
You're out of pocket!
And I'm a dopey moron for engaging you for longer then 2 posts..
I sometimes forget that a brick wall will not stop being a brick wall just because I bang my head on it all day

[StanUpshaw]

You're out of pocket!
And I'm a dopey moron for engaging you for longer then 2 posts..
I sometimes forget that a brick wall will not stop being a brick wall just because I bang my head on it all day

You should have tried some of those "facts" you were bragging about earlier.

[jonyrotn]

"intellectual property" is still property
and we have loads of that...
the world loves to buy our systems
and software and books and music
and films and magazines etc
not to mention our planes and
miltary hardware and not to mention
our agricultural output...everyone in
the world eats!

that being said, it would be nice
if we still had some factories
that made things like furniture
Those are all things we still manage to manufacture.. But you can't mass produce things like art or a good idea..I can't see us building a lasting economy intellectual licensing..BUT if we could produce things the world wants were golden, even for the times they don't want them we'd "economic inventory" which has actual worth, to keep industry afloat..Whereas if all an entire economy is built on services provided, what do you have that has actual worth when people no longer want the services you provide, if even for a brief period..
Example one is a hourglass cuz it buys you time..Example two affords for no such provision, a depression would instantly activate the cascade effect cuz there's nothing to prop it up..

[jonyrotn]

You should have tried some of those "facts" you were bragging about earlier.
Don't tug on Superman's cape young man..You're much further out of your league then you even realize..That's my official, one time only warning.. Take it for what it's worth..

[PapaBear]

Don't tug on Superman's cape young man..You're much further out of your league then you even realize..That's my official, one time only warning.. Take it for what it's worth..
Take it down a notch or two.

[Dude!]

Those are all things we still manage to manufacture.. But you can't mass produce things like art or a good idea..I can't see us building a lasting economy intellectual licensing..BUT if we could produce things the world wants were golden, even for the times they don't want them we'd "economic inventory" which has actual worth, to keep industry afloat..Whereas if all an entire economy is built on services provided, what do you have that has actual worth when people no longer want the services you provide, if even for a brief period..
Example one is a hourglass cuz it buys you time..Example two affords for no such provision, a depression would instantly activate the cascade effect cuz there's nothing to prop it up..

as long as we still are # 1 in agriculture
we survive the depression
demand for food never goes away

[jonyrotn]

Take it down a notch or two.
I think this was a pretty tender shot across the bow..Normally I would of include the word cunt in there somewhere..Plus, unless coming from a passive aggressive, warnings are ment to be perceived in only one way and to that end, I think my words served the goal..
That being said.. I'll tone it done a notch or two..sorry stan..sorry rf.net..

[PapaBear]

Thanks.

BTW... You'll never get a warning from me, if you call him "Perv".

[jonyrotn]

as long as we still are # 1 in agriculture
we survive the depression
demand for food never goes away
Good premise Dude, but having all of us growing Buck Choy and white rice is not gonna perpetuate the ever dwindling middle class in America and that's where our whole debate was bourne out..

[jonyrotn]

Tell that to the women I jerk off to..
And hell, China herself.
Changed to fit my needs...

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd477/Sectorabc/pervert-3.jpg
Sorry Stan..I needed PapaBear's forgiveness..I owe you back, so the next one's on me..

[jonyrotn]

regardless, we're number one. even if we were number three, it's silly to act like there's no industry here or you can't find any usa made products if you wanted.
My American flag is not made in America..
Like it our not, that's a barometer..
It speaks volumes to me when I leave my apartment and the only thing on me that's made here is the money in my pocket..Even the gun on my hip is made in Germany..These are problems..

[sailor]

My American flag is not made in America..
Like it our not, that's a barometer..
It speaks volumes to me when I leave my apartment and the only thing on me that's made here is the money in my pocket..Even the gun on my hip is made in Germany..These are problems..

china's own economy is in for a shock in the next few years. their growth has all been due to government spending on infrastructure that no one there uses. read a great article on it like a week ago, but can't remember where. don't think it even had anything to do with chanos (who himself is predicting a collapse of china).

[A.J.]

as long as we still are # 1 in agriculture
we survive the depression
demand for food never goes away

Or potable water.

[jonyrotn]

Or potable water. Or bacon wrapped turkey stuffed with a roastbeef..

[sailor]

Or bacon wrapped turkey stuffed with a roastbeef..

That would probably fall under food.

[jonyrotn]

That would probably fall under food.
http://gi265.photobucket.com/groups/ii232/5XH5EKYUPO/namaz.jpg
Yes..And in time even the Islamic nations will be begging for it..

[Furtherman]

china's own economy is in for a shock in the next few years. their growth has all been due to government spending on infrastructure that no one there uses. read a great article on it like a week ago, but can't remember where. don't think it even had anything to do with chanos (who himself is predicting a collapse of china).


And Now Presenting: Amazing Satellite Images Of The Ghost Cities Of China (http://www.businessinsider.com/pictures-chinese-ghost-cities-2010-12#ixzz1LrvH2YXx)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/17/article-1339536-0C8593D5000005DC-997_634x475.jpg

[jonyrotn]

And Now Presenting: Amazing Satellite Images Of The Ghost Cities Of China (http://www.businessinsider.com/pictures-chinese-ghost-cities-2010-12#ixzz1LrvH2YXx)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/17/article-1339536-0C8593D5000005DC-997_634x475.jpg
Almost seems like they're awaiting a huge influx of people with enough money to buy property because no one there can afford it, and the whole world knows that..Wouldn't all those empty government buildings might make a great home for the United Nations, Council on Foreign Relations, and the Trilateral Commission..That's where I'd rule the world from..

[Furtherman]

That's where I'd rule the world from..

Exactly.

An evil mastermind's lair.

[hanso]

My American flag is not made in America..
Like it our not, that's a barometer..
It speaks volumes to me when I leave my apartment and the only thing on me that's made here is the money in my pocket..Even the gun on my hip is made in Germany..These are problems..

That could soon change. I read that the use of cotton for money could be on the way out. And importing paper/cotten may not be that far off as well.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Maybe FLOTUS has some of that Angela Davis anger in her

http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/09/burn-a-bush-michelle-obama-invites-rapper-common-to-a-poetry-reading/

[Dudeman]

Maybe FLOTUS has some of that Angela Davis anger in her

http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/09/burn-a-bush-michelle-obama-invites-rapper-common-to-a-poetry-reading/

This post was brought to you by the WF REPORT 



(and he's sitting in front of the computer, :furious: that they are all destroying his country)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This post was brought to you by the WF REPORT 



(and he's sitting in front of the computer, :furious: that they are all destroying his country)

I guess Iced Tea and Ice Cube were not militant enough since they both sold out

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This post was brought to you by the WF REPORT 



(and he's sitting in front of the computer, :furious: that they are all destroying his country)

I want an invite for the next slam

We gotta president tearin up da constitution, thinkin dat he can cause mass confusion, him and his boyz at the fed involved in mad collusion, inflatin da dollar wit da power he abusin. Startin another war in Africa witout congressional consent, for his abuses of the law will he repent ? Hell nah cuz we gotta man in DC who be mad incompetent

[StanUpshaw]

http://i.imgur.com/sTUfw.jpg

[jonyrotn]

I want an invite for the next slam

We gotta president tearin up da constitution, thinkin dat he can cause mass confusion, him and his boyz at the fed involved in mad collusion, inflatin da dollar wit da power he abusin. Startin another war in Africa witout congressional consent, for his abuses of the law will he repent ? Hell nah cuz we gotta man in DC who be mad incompetent
http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd477/Sectorabc/obama3.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

He was definitely in his-pandering mode yesterday running his mouth spewing lies saying that the border is safe and trying to compare Ruppert Murdoch to some border jumper. I thought he was the smartest man ever to become rpesident. Does he not know the difference btwn legal and illegal?

It was the same lines make them learn english. Thats not constitutional and what if they dont? they get shipped back? Pay taxes on what? They dont make enough to pay taxes. His speech was sickening, full of pandering and he went down there because he lost a lot of support among hispanics so going down there in hopes of throwing them a bone is why he did that.

OK Mr President so if you want to forgive people who broke the law, why not blanket Amnesty for everyone. Anyone with a DUI wipe it from the slate. Their sins are forgiven.

[Barnaby Jones]

I guess Iced Tea and Ice Cube were not militant enough since they both sold out

Surely you're not this out of touch, yes??? Do you really think Common is somehow "too inflammatory" to be invited to the WH????

Originally Posted by WRESTLINGFAN View Post
I want an invite for the next slam

We gotta president tearin up da constitution, thinkin dat he can cause mass confusion, him and his boyz at the fed involved in mad collusion, inflatin da dollar wit da power he abusin. Startin another war in Africa witout congressional consent, for his abuses of the law will he repent ? Hell nah cuz we gotta man in DC who be mad incompetent

LOLOLOLOL!!!! Guess that answers that question!!!

[Dudeman]

Surely you're not this out of touch, yes??? Do you really think Common is somehow "too inflammatory" to be invited to the WH????



LOLOLOLOL!!!! Guess that answers that question!!!

He's a big fan of the federal government censoring free speech...

If we legalize heroin, who here is going to do heroin???
If we have a person read some poetry (no matter how bad it may be), who here is going to walk out the door and shoot someone???

[hanso]

The tea party pizza man beat his guy.

Free the smack!

[Dudeman]

Maybe FLOTUS has some of that Angela Davis anger in her

http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/09/burn-a-bush-michelle-obama-invites-rapper-common-to-a-poetry-reading/

I want an invite for the next slam

We gotta president tearin up da constitution, thinkin dat he can cause mass confusion, him and his boyz at the fed involved in mad collusion, inflatin da dollar wit da power he abusin. Startin another war in Africa witout congressional consent, for his abuses of the law will he repent ? Hell nah cuz we gotta man in DC who be mad incompetent

Watch these videos... WF is the same as Foxnews, Hannity, and Karl Rove.... (on this issue.)

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-may-11-2011/tone-def-poetry-jam?xrs=share_copy

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-may-11-2011/tone-def-poetry-jam---lyrics-controversy?xrs=share_copy



and Palin:
Palin says White House invite to rapper Common lacks ‘decency,’ talks 2012
(http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20110512/pl_yblog_theticket/palin-says-white-house-invite-to-rapper-common-lacks-decency-talks-2012#mwpphu-container)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

He's a big fan of the federal government censoring free speech...

If we legalize heroin, who here is going to do heroin???
If we have a person read some poetry (no matter how bad it may be), who here is going to walk out the door and shoot someone???

Who the hell said I wanted the fed govt to censor speech? Its people like media matters who got Imus thrown off the air. Sharpton wants Limbaugh off the air because he doesnt agree with him.

Maybe not on this board but there are Jared Loughners out there. Besides what happened to civility after Giffords took one to the brain Obama and the left cried out for civility

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Watch these videos... WF is the same as Foxnews, Hannity, and Karl Rove.... (on this issue.)

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-may-11-2011/tone-def-poetry-jam?xrs=share_copy

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-may-11-2011/tone-def-poetry-jam---lyrics-controversy?xrs=share_copy



and Palin:
Palin says White House invite to rapper Common lacks ‘decency,’ talks 2012
(http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20110512/pl_yblog_theticket/palin-says-white-house-invite-to-rapper-common-lacks-decency-talks-2012#mwpphu-container)

Fox news. so predictable


THEYRE RUINING THIS COUNTRY :furious::furious::furious::furious:

[Dudeman]

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tNLmi0_216g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ted on Paul:
Very few politicians on either side of the political aisle qualify to stand in Jefferson’s extremist shadow. Maybe Ron Paul. He has some extremist views about Fedzilla. Rock on, Ron. Get even more extreme./ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/dec/21/extremely-american/)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tNLmi0_216g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ted on Paul:
Very few politicians on either side of the political aisle qualify to stand in Jefferson’s extremist shadow. Maybe Ron Paul. He has some extremist views about Fedzilla. Rock on, Ron. Get even more extreme./ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/dec/21/extremely-american/)

Ending foreign occupation, preserving civil liberties and sound fiscal policies are real extreme.

And what about all those threats against Dubya, those didnt exist amirite?

[Dudeman]

Ending foreign occupation, preserving civil liberties and sound fiscal policies are real extreme.

Foreign occupation?
You were out there campaigning for Kerry when he was saying "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time" against Bush, right? Ron Paul's Republican party was the driving force for putting us in Iraq. (Obama tried to prevent a masscure without nation building, and got france to step up to the plate, rather than going at it alone.)

Civil Liberties?
You were out there campaigning for Obama when he was saying, "If there's an Arab-American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties" and "we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states."

Sound fiscal policies, Ron Paul.... :lol:


(WF now busy scurrying for the predictable Gitmo, Afgan troop, deficit spending reply ...)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Foreign occupation?
You were out there campaigning for Kerry when he was saying "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time" against Bush, right? Ron Paul's Republican party was the driving force for putting us in Iraq. (Obama tried to provent a masscure without nation building...)

Civil Liberties?
You were out there campaigning for Obama when he was saying, "If there's an Arab-American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties" and "we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states."

Sound fiscal policies, Ron Paul.... :lol:

Will you be campaigning for Obama now that he started another war in a Muslim nation killing family members all without congrssional consent. How about the continued nation building in Afghanistan

Civil liberties like his continued support for the patriot act and an out of control TSA who now give happy endings to toddlers and condoning ratting people out opposed to obamacare by setting up an email address to the white house

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1385207/Baby-bomb-threat-Outrage-toddler-given-frisking-TSA-agents.html?ITO=1490


Rounding up minorities and putting them into camps? We were not around for that but remember this guy?

That little girl is lucky her eyes arent slanted

http://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/132ed66a96.jpg

Obama's fiscal policies are sound? :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Zorro]

Fox news. so predictable


THEYRE RUINING THIS COUNTRY :furious::furious::furious::furious:

More predictable than Fox news is a Dudeman - Wrestlingfan debate.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If the economy is still in the toilet next year, which it will be. Lets see Obama put all his chips in that he had an Arab shot in the face

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Foreign occupation?
You were out there campaigning for Kerry when he was saying "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time" against Bush, right? Ron Paul's Republican party was the driving force for putting us in Iraq. (Obama tried to prevent a masscure without nation building, and got france to step up to the plate, rather than going at it alone.)

Civil Liberties?
You were out there campaigning for Obama when he was saying, "If there's an Arab-American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties" and "we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states."

Sound fiscal policies, Ron Paul.... :lol:


(WF now busy scurrying for the predictable Gitmo, Afgan troop, deficit spending reply ...)


You forgot the Public option. Lefties were going apeshit that he didnt lobby for that more

[A.J.]

If the economy is still in the toilet next year, which it will be. Lets see Obama put all his chips in that he had an Arab shot in the face

He should have ordered a Moe Greene special.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mXz2rszFv0g/STVsUDT2xVI/AAAAAAAAATU/wKdOHjdENx0/s400/moegreen2.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Turns out that Common and Jill Scott the other BFF of the Obamas dont want blacks dating those dirty crackas


Now what would Barack Sr think if he was alive ?

[Dude!]

Now what would Barack Sr think if he was alive ?

he'd be thinkin..

yo, dem suckas done
elected a moslem presidink

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Sadly he knows nothing about economics. Companies cant just start hiring and create jobs out of the blue

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/12/us-obama-economy-idUSTRE74B2KZ20110512?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews


Him and his minions crying over exxons profits again, he has no reality of how businesses operate at all

Those "subsidies" arent checks being handed out, its allowing companies to deduct expenses for R&D as exploring for oil is costly. Shell oil is the latest victim of the EPA after spending billions

"With the Environmental Appeals Board's decision to withhold the air permits, the Board also suggested drilling in the Arctic region could be hazardous to the area's inhabitants, even though the closest residents live about 70 miles away from the Beaufort Sea drilling site proposed by Shell."

70 Miles away. Who would have been affected? Nobody

Thanks Nixon

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110426/lf_ac/8366623_epa_blocks_shell_oil_from_arctic_offshore_ oil_drilling_1

[brettmojo]

Sadly he knows nothing about economics. Companies cant just start hiring and create jobs out of the blue

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/12/us-obama-economy-idUSTRE74B2KZ20110512?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews


Him and his minions crying over exxons profits again, he has no reality of how businesses operate at all

Those "subsidies" arent checks being handed out, its allowing companies to deduct expenses for R&D as exploring for oil is costly. Shell oil is the latest victim of the EPA after spending billions

"With the Environmental Appeals Board's decision to withhold the air permits, the Board also suggested drilling in the Arctic region could be hazardous to the area's inhabitants, even though the closest residents live about 70 miles away from the Beaufort Sea drilling site proposed by Shell."

70 Miles away. Who would have been affected? Nobody

Thanks Nixon

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110426/lf_ac/8366623_epa_blocks_shell_oil_from_arctic_offshore_ oil_drilling_1
Yes. Because nobody was affected by the BP spill who were at least 70 miles away...

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yes. Because nobody was affected by the BP spill who were at least 70 miles away...


This government loves Draconian measures

Catch someone trying to light his shoes on fire everyone takes them off. No bringing liquids more than 3 oz on board because there was almost an explosion over the Atlantic. 4 planes crash and institute the patriot act


This President is above the law, he can ignore a contempt in court for continuing to ban offshore drilling

[Syd]

Sadly he knows nothing about economics. Companies cant just start hiring and create jobs out of the blue

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/12/us-obama-economy-idUSTRE74B2KZ20110512?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews


Him and his minions crying over exxons profits again, he has no reality of how businesses operate at all

Those "subsidies" arent checks being handed out, its allowing companies to deduct expenses for R&D as exploring for oil is costly. Shell oil is the latest victim of the EPA after spending billions

"With the Environmental Appeals Board's decision to withhold the air permits, the Board also suggested drilling in the Arctic region could be hazardous to the area's inhabitants, even though the closest residents live about 70 miles away from the Beaufort Sea drilling site proposed by Shell."

70 Miles away. Who would have been affected? Nobody

Thanks Nixon

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110426/lf_ac/8366623_epa_blocks_shell_oil_from_arctic_offshore_ oil_drilling_1

Is that oil going to be magically teleported away? Since ol' Stevey Hawks ain't invented a teleporter yet I'm going to assume it will be by pipeline or by boat. Ask people in Utah or the Gulf region whether or not drilling 70 miles away from them has a chance at ruining their livelihoods or causing health issues.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Is that oil going to be magically teleported away? Since ol' Stevey Hawks ain't invented a teleporter yet I'm going to assume it will be by pipeline or by boat. Ask people in Utah or the Gulf region whether or not drilling 70 miles away from them has a chance at ruining their livelihoods or causing health issues.

Why would the fed gov't issue the lease, Shell then spends 4 billion on R&D and the Bureaucrats at EPA intervenes due to concerns about an ice breaking ship

All the money, time and energy invested for the EPA to come in because of some special interest radical environmental group complaining is why we are slaves to OPEC

We get show trials by ignorant dopes on Capitol hill who have no knowledge of how energy markets work and know nothing about profit margins. They hear an arbitrary number and they go apeshit

[foodcourtdruide]

Yes. Because nobody was affected by the BP spill who were at least 70 miles away...

This is one of the most bizarre arguments I've seen him make yet.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This is one of the most bizarre arguments I've seen him make yet.

There is risk of living almost everywhere. 3000 people were vaporized almost 10 years ago but there are new skyscrapers and planes flying over NYC

[Furtherman]

There is risk of living almost everywhere. 3000 people were vaporized almost 10 years ago but there are new skyscrapers and planes flying over NYC

There are skyscrapers flying over NYC!? Welcome to the future!!!!

[foodcourtdruide]

There is risk of living almost everywhere. 3000 people were vaporized almost 10 years ago but there are new skyscrapers and planes flying over NYC

And in order to prevent that from happening again, costly measures were taken to improve security. What is your point?

[foodcourtdruide]

There are skyscrapers flying over NYC!? Welcome to the future!!!!

I'm looking out my office window now. It's pretty awesome!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

And in order to prevent that from happening again, costly measures were taken to improve security. What is your point?

Do you remember Feb '93?


There was increased security and what happened 8 years later?


Its naive to think NY wont be attacked again

[Furtherman]

Do you remember Feb '93?


There was increased security and what happened 8 years later?


Its naive to think NY wont be attacked again

Who thinks that? It's highly unlikely it will be attacked again by planes. Or flying skyscrapers.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Who thinks that? It's highly unlikely it will be attacked again by planes. Or flying skyscrapers.

Planes havent hit buildings pre or post 9/11 ? Yes they were not hostile forces but remember cory lidle for example?

[Furtherman]

Oh yea, same thing.

[brettmojo]

It would take a DECADE for any new or increased drilling to make an impact at the pump and by then it'll probably be negligible at best. Our future as a nation isn't in oil dependency... It's in alternative sources of renewable energy. Any attempts to limp along with oil is just a waste of time and money and both of which we really cannot afford to waste anymore.

Nothing is really gonna' change until we're faced with a catastrophe or more likely after one happens so I guess it really doesn't matter at this point anyway.

[Furtherman]

Nothing is really gonna' change until we're faced with a catastrophe or more likely after one happens so I guess it really doesn't matter at this point anyway.

Regan said it would be aliens.

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4VBkQAkhcS8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[brettmojo]

Regan said it would be aliens.

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4VBkQAkhcS8" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="390" width="480"></iframe>
You just don't know if it was a slip of the tongue or his dementia setting in.

I guess we'll find out next December.

[Jujubees2]

It would take a DECADE for any new or increased drilling to make an impact at the pump and by then it'll probably be negligible at best. Our future as a nation isn't in oil dependency... It's in alternative sources of renewable energy. Any attempts to limp along with oil is just a waste of time and money and both of which we really cannot afford to waste anymore.

Nothing is really gonna' change until we're faced with a catastrophe or more likely after one happens so I guess it really doesn't matter at this point anyway.

Well said

[Earlshog]

Oh yea, same thing.

Come on

One guy learning to fly with his instructor makes a mistake and breaks a window with his crop-duster

The other intentionally flying two fully fueled 747's into the twin towers leveling them and all the surrounding buildings, starting two wars, costing trillions of dollars and claiming hundreds of thousands of lives.

You don't see that’s the same thing

[Earlshog]

It would take a DECADE for any new or increased drilling to make an impact at the pump and by then it'll probably be negligible at best. Our future as a nation isn't in oil dependency... It's in alternative sources of renewable energy. Any attempts to limp along with oil is just a waste of time and money and both of which we really cannot afford to waste anymore.

Nothing is really gonna' change until we're faced with a catastrophe or more likely after one happens so I guess it really doesn't matter at this point anyway.

Yup!

[Gutter]

Come on

One guy learning to fly with his instructor makes a mistake and breaks a window with his crop-duster

The other intentionally flying two fully fueled 747's into the twin towers leveling them and all the surrounding buildings, starting two wars, costing trillions of dollars and claiming hundreds of thousands of lives.

You don't see that’s the same thing

those fucking crop dusters are scary man!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Come on

One guy learning to fly with his instructor makes a mistake and breaks a window with his crop-duster

The other intentionally flying two fully fueled 747's into the twin towers leveling them and all the surrounding buildings, starting two wars, costing trillions of dollars and claiming hundreds of thousands of lives.

You don't see that’s the same thing

They werent 747's

But that's not the point. Billions are being spent on security and a massive police presence for what? Theres going to be an attack again whether its from a plane, train or some vehicle parked at any given place

It may not happen in the immediate future. OBL is dead but they are still planning attacks and are very patient

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Regan said it would be aliens.

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4VBkQAkhcS8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Any relation to Brian Regan ?

[Earlshog]

those fucking crop dusters are scary man!!

Especially when they are spraying Anthrax...

[Furtherman]

Come on

One guy learning to fly with his instructor makes a mistake and breaks a window with his crop-duster

The other intentionally flying two fully fueled 747's into the twin towers leveling them and all the surrounding buildings, starting two wars, costing trillions of dollars and claiming hundreds of thousands of lives.

You don't see that’s the same thing

You're right. How can I be so blind?

[StanUpshaw]

I don't understand what's happening in this thread. Is there even an issue at hand, or is it just poo flinging?

[SonOfSmeagol]

Sadly he knows nothing about economics. Companies cant just start hiring and create jobs out of the blue

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/12/us-obama-economy-idUSTRE74B2KZ20110512?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

I think he knows just fine, but he chooses to pit business against the taxpayers (where do they get the funds to pay taxes, btw). It's all politics to him, and it's getting tiresome. e.g., statements like this:

"It is time for companies to step up," Obama said. "American taxpayers contributed to that process of stabilizing the economy. Companies have benefited from that, and they're making a lot of money, and now's the time for them to start betting on American workers and American products."

As if companies that thought they could make a buck by taking risks wouldn't do it. wtf? c'mon man

[foodcourtdruide]

Do you remember Feb '93?


There was increased security and what happened 8 years later?


Its naive to think NY wont be attacked again

Is your point that the American government should stop investing in national security because inevitably another attack will happen anyway?

[foodcourtdruide]

Your argument here just makes no sense, WF. We should abandon environmental safety, because 9/11 showed us that there are dangers everywhere?

Given recent events, how could you not see why people wouldn't want drilling close to them? I don't think you need to agree or disagree, but I totally understand the argument and don't think it's some type of environmental extremist point of view.

[hanso]

This is one of the most bizarre arguments I've seen him make yet.

Those on the right are now barking about not having local drilling. When in fact many new licenses have already been granted.

It is some sorry response to let tax payer subsides keep going. Right into their pockets. By 2/3s more.

[hanso]

Regan said it would be aliens.

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4VBkQAkhcS8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Maybe he was going for the scientologist vote.

[sailor]

They werent 747's

But that's not the point. Billions are being spent on security and a massive police presence for what? Theres going to be an attack again whether its from a plane, train or some vehicle parked at any given place

It may not happen in the immediate future. OBL is dead but they are still planning attacks and are very patient

I got my eye on steve Martin.

[Zorro]

Your argument here just makes no sense, WF. We should abandon environmental safety, because 9/11 showed us that there are dangers everywhere?

Given recent events, how could you not see why people wouldn't want drilling close to them? I don't think you need to agree or disagree, but I totally understand the argument and don't think it's some type of environmental extremist point of view.

There is no enviromental safety. There is enviromental safety transfer. We don't have ugly stinky steel plants in your backyard, but are very willing to have them in China. We "recycle" all our stuff which means we just little Bangladshi kids be exposed to the toxins in our old electronics.

What we've done is very Hollywood What you see is all nice and clean, but behind the scenes its a disaster. The dirty work still gets done its just done by the world's poor and we feel better about ourselves. No wonder why they hate us.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Companies are sitting on 2 trillion in cash because they are positioning themselves for Obamacare mandates kicking in within a couple of years and possible tax hikes. These companies are forward looking and need to forecast their expenses and costs. Obama telling them to step up makes no sense. He thinks that jobs can be created out of thin air. A job at its most basic definition is a demand for labor. Person A offers himself to perform a task and Person B the employer compensates him. The reason why McDonalds hired 50K people last month is that they got an Obamacare waiver

In regards to terrorism I never said to stop all security measures but they are too draconian. The money should be spent wisely and not just thrown down a rathole.

As far as oil drilling and exploring they are not purposely looking to cause a disaster why would they do that. With exploration there are risks Just like building a skyscraper. There was a crane that turned over in 2007 on the UES of Manhattan that killed some people including the operator . Im not making light of accidents/disasters but they do happen.
Comparing the population of some remote village to the Gulf coast is a stretch. There are millions living on the gulf coast and there are industries like fishing, tourism energy etc. Some remote village in Alaska wont have as much damage. Im not saying that the people in Alaska wont be affected if theres a disaster but its comparing Apples to oranges


These "subsidies" to the oil companies arent checks being handed out. Its allowing them to deduct exploring drilling etc from their liability. A subsidy is giving money to ethanol. So basically the government is peopping up 1 business over another.


Gas prices arent set by thr oil companies or local gas stations its mainly based on the spot market. Oil is purchased in futures contracts and its based in dollars. Traders are looking at world events and its traded in USD so as a result of a weaker dollar more is needed for those contracts. Gas stations make pennies on a gallon of gas as a lot of their sales are from Soda, Cigs, bad hotdogs coffee etc.

No one wants higher gas prices but there isnt that much outrage on other commodotoes like wheat and corn. Have you taken a trip to the supermarket? Also look at the price of milk. Those are necessities too

Most people pissed at the oil co's dont even know that they might be invested thru their pension funds or 401k's. There are almost 5 billion shares outstanding of XOM and people dont factor that in.

[Syd]

It would take a DECADE for any new or increased drilling to make an impact at the pump and by then it'll probably be negligible at best. Our future as a nation isn't in oil dependency... It's in alternative sources of renewable energy. Any attempts to limp along with oil is just a waste of time and money and both of which we really cannot afford to waste anymore.

Nothing is really gonna' change until we're faced with a catastrophe or more likely after one happens so I guess it really doesn't matter at this point anyway.

That and if every proven and theoretical reserve is tapped, it's like 3 months of oil at current usage rates.

[hanso]

Solar costs x2 as oil now. However after investments are made. And the process gets worked out. The price would go down. It's about time to get it started.

[jonyrotn]

Companies are sitting on 2 trillion in cash because they are positioning themselves for Obamacare mandates kicking in within a couple of years and possible tax hikes. These companies are forward looking and need to forecast their expenses and costs. Obama telling them to step up makes no sense. He thinks that jobs can be created out of thin air. A job at its most basic definition is a demand for labor. Person A offers himself to perform a task and Person B the employer compensates him. The reason why McDonalds hired 50K people last month is that they got an Obamacare waiver

In regards to terrorism I never said to stop all security measures but they are too draconian. The money should be spent wisely and not just thrown down a rathole.

As far as oil drilling and exploring they are not purposely looking to cause a disaster why would they do that. With exploration there are risks Just like building a skyscraper. There was a crane that turned over in 2007 on the UES of Manhattan that killed some people including the operator . Im not making light of accidents/disasters but they do happen.
Comparing the population of some remote village to the Gulf coast is a stretch. There are millions living on the gulf coast and there are industries like fishing, tourism energy etc. Some remote village in Alaska wont have as much damage. Im not saying that the people in Alaska wont be affected if theres a disaster but its comparing Apples to oranges


These "subsidies" to the oil companies arent checks being handed out. Its allowing them to deduct exploring drilling etc from their liability. A subsidy is giving money to ethanol. So basically the government is peopping up 1 business over another.


Gas prices arent set by thr oil companies or local gas stations its mainly based on the spot market. Oil is purchased in futures contracts and its based in dollars. Traders are looking at world events and its traded in USD so as a result of a weaker dollar more is needed for those contracts. Gas stations make pennies on a gallon of gas as a lot of their sales are from Soda, Cigs, bad hotdogs coffee etc.

No one wants higher gas prices but there isnt that much outrage on other commodotoes like wheat and corn. Have you taken a trip to the supermarket? Also look at the price of milk. Those are necessities too

Most people pissed at the oil co's dont even know that they might be invested thru their pension funds or 401k's. There are almost 5 billion shares outstanding of XOM and people dont factor that in.
Who the fuck are you, Alex P. Keaton?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Who the fuck are you, Alex P. Keaton?

I wasn't born in a commune :lol:

On the issue of jobs. Why would a company take on more people when conditions are that they are not needed due to the current economic status?

Even if the economy was in good shape. Lets say I own a bar in midtown with enough stations for 3 bartenders. On a Wed afternoon at 1pm I would need only 1 bartender, now Thursday at 5pm when its happy hour, I would need those extra 2.

[jonyrotn]

On the issue of jobs. Why would a company take on more people when conditions are that they are not needed due to the current economic status?

Even if the economy was in good shape. Lets say I own a bar in midtown with enough stations for 3 bartenders. On a Wed afternoon at 1pm I would need only 1 bartender, now Thursday at 5pm when its happy hour, I would need those extra 2.
Three words..
Trickle Down Alcoholics..

[jonyrotn]

And convince the business that being a better "citizen" is better in the long run too.
Here, here Dudeman..This would solve a lifetime of problems..

[Recyclerz]

Three words..
Trickle Down Alcoholics..

Plus that creates a job for the guy who has to mop up the floor.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Trump is out


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/16/breaking-trump-not-running-for-president/?hpt=T2

[Jujubees2]

Trump is out


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/16/breaking-trump-not-running-for-president/?hpt=T2

Shocking

[boobieman]

Trump is out


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/16/breaking-trump-not-running-for-president/?hpt=T2

I knew it, I knew it, that wig wearing hump was gay..just knew it...oh out you mean from president..Sorry..he is still a hump.

SSEYAYYEYAAAA

[furie]

Trump is out


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/16/breaking-trump-not-running-for-president/?hpt=T2

Damn, I was really looking forward to Trump/Busey 2012 stickers.

[brettmojo]

Damn, I was really looking forward to Trump/Busey 2012 stickers.
I've already seen a few SHEEN/GIBSON '12

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Oh lookie what we have here. Remember the wicked witch of the west proclaiming that there would be "high quality health care" Gotta pass the bill before reading it proudly carrying that huge gavel?

Let the waivers roll thru


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/djsaunders/detail?entry_id=89124&tsp=1

[StanUpshaw]

I somehow feel like video this belongs here:

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mXY4xKKfvEA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No link yet,


Obama announces $1 billion in debt forgiveness for Egypt and $1 billion in loan guarantees to finance infrastructure.


The mississippi is flooded, Alabama is flattened and an Arab country is getting perks. How naive. This so called Arab spring is nothing to celebrate about

18 Billion to Pakistan since 2001 and look where that got us.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Lets throw the Jews under the bus while we are at it


President Obama says peace between Israelis and Palestinians will involve "two states for two peoples."
"The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states," Obama said.


How about we give the SW back to Mexico pre 1848 borders?

[A.J.]

Lets throw the Jews under the bus while we are at it


President Obama says peace between Israelis and Palestinians will involve "two states for two peoples."
"The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states," Obama said.


How about we give the SW back to Mexico pre 1848 borders?

Good. It's about time this country took that stance.

And the SW is de facto Mexican territory anyway.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Good. It's about time this country took that stance.

And the SW is de facto Mexican territory anyway.

I agree lets cut off the aid. I think its 3 billion annually. However once they are no longer getting that aid we shouldnt hold the reins anymore

As for Egypt since we are guaranteeing their loans. Those Pyramids are ours as collateral bytchezzzzz

[Furtherman]

Lets throw the Jews under the bus while we are at it


President Obama says peace between Israelis and Palestinians will involve "two states for two peoples."
"The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states," Obama said.


How about we give the SW back to Mexico pre 1848 borders?

Good. It's about time this country took that stance.

And this should be in the Best President thread.

And the SW is de facto Mexican territory anyway.

Agreed. It's about time a President had the balls to make such a stance.

[hanso]

Bar Refaeli should be collateral.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Agreed. It's about time a President had the balls to make such a stance.

Not really. Just empty, scolding words with no real plan behind it. Nothing of substance has been done about the whole situation in this adminstration, and I predict nothing will be done about it within the next year or two. Meanwhile, much more serious, Iran and nukes will probably change the dynamic in ways we can't even imagine. What's he doing about that?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The so called smartest man ever elected president focuses on borders 7000 miles away while leaving our borders wide open. Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

[Jujubees2]

The so called smartest man ever elected president focuses on borders 7000 miles away while leaving our borders wide open. Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

Yeah, right

Deportation of illegal immigrants increases under Obama administration (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072501790.html)

[A.J.]

Agreed. It's about time a President had the balls to make such a stance.

I can't wait to read AIPAC's press release.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yeah, right

Deportation of illegal immigrants increases under Obama administration (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072501790.html)



http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/disagree-126327-dhs-secure.html

When they are still able to infest the country at alarming rates how is it secure. I'll take the peoples word who actually live there, not some fat bloated bureaucrat 2000 miles away. Just Because big sis Napolitano says its secure youre going to take her word? This govt has a track record of making ridiculous claims

[Jujubees2]

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/disagree-126327-dhs-secure.html

When they are still able to infest the country at alarming rates how is it secure. I'll take the peoples word who actually live there, not some fat bloated bureaucrat 2000 miles away. Just Because big sis Napolitano says its secure youre going to take her word? This govt has a track record of making ridiculous claims

So you want the US to go into Mexico to stop the shooting?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So you want the US to go into Mexico to stop the shooting?

Let the Mexicans kill each other


I want our troops out of the mid east AfPak and put some on the border. In the meantime build that god damned wall already

[foodcourtdruide]

The so called smartest man ever elected president focuses on borders 7000 miles away while leaving our borders wide open. Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

Because what's happening in the middle east will have more of an impact on this country (both immediately and historically) than illegal immigration. I know it hurts you to hear that,but it's true. You can link to whatever website you can find, using debatable data to prove that illegal immigrants cost us more than they benefit us and I guarentee you the cost will not be 1/10th of what the wars and spikes in oil prices cost us due to instability in that region.

And don't act like this is the first U.S. President to focus attention on Israel/Palestine.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Because what's happening in the middle east will have more of an impact on this country (both immediately and historically) than illegal immigration. I know it hurts you to hear that,but it's true. You can link to whatever website you can find, using debatable data to prove that illegal immigrants cost us more than they benefit us and I guarentee you the cost will not be 1/10th of what the wars and spikes in oil prices cost us due to instability in that region.

And don't act like this is the first U.S. President to focus attention on Israel/Palestine.


Concerned about oil spikes? Maybe Obama should have thought twice before starting another war in a Muslim country without a declaration or at least congressional authority, but he can shit all over the constitution like his predecessor

The 2 are mutually exclusive however both are huge concerns as oil prices spiking and billions pissed to foreigners who have no right to be here are a fiscal drain.

Dubya was the 1st President to call for a 2 state solution but I dont recall him calling for Israel to redraw its borders.

End aid to Israel? Im for saving 3 billion annually. Let Israel defend herself. Im sure they would be able to crush any invading army. They have done it numerous times before.

[A.J.]

Let the Mexicans kill each other


I want our troops out of the mid east AfPak and put some on the border. In the meantime build that god damned wall already

Two words: Maginot Line.

[foodcourtdruide]

Concerned about oil spikes? Maybe Obama should have thought twice before starting another war in a Muslim country without a declaration or at least congressional authority, but he can shit all over the constitution like his predecessor

Obama started that war that led ot the oil spikes? Ok. I guess Libya wasn't in the midst of a civil war, and there wasn't a strong call from the international community for intervention.

Should Obama HAVE intervened in Libya? Maybe not, we probably have a similar belief there.

Is it Obama's fault that oil prices have spiked because of the situation in Libya? Come on WF, that's such a stretch.


The 2 are mutually exclusive however both are huge concerns as oil prices spiking and billions pissed to foreigners who have no right to be here are a fiscal drain.


Comparing the fiscal drain of rising oil prices to the fiscal drain of illegal immigrants is laughable and really puts into perspective how your emotional connection clouds any rational conversation that we can have.


Dubya was the 1st President to call for a 2 state solution but I dont recall him calling for Israel to redraw its borders.

End aid to Israel? Im for saving 3 billion annually. Let Israel defend herself. Im sure they would be able to crush any invading army. They have done it numerous times before.

I'm still thinking about my position on what Obama said about Israel yesterday. I'm interested to see where this goes. I know you hate everything Obama says or does, but so far, besides perhaps Libyan intervention I think Obama's foreign policies have looked great.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Obama started that war that led ot the oil spikes? Ok. I guess Libya wasn't in the midst of a civil war, and there wasn't a strong call from the international community for intervention.

Should Obama HAVE intervened in Libya? Maybe not, we probably have a similar belief there.

Is it Obama's fault that oil prices have spiked because of the situation in Libya? Come on WF, that's such a stretch.



Comparing the fiscal drain of rising oil prices to the fiscal drain of illegal immigrants is laughable and really puts into perspective how your emotional connection clouds any rational conversation that we can have.



I'm still thinking about my position on what Obama said about Israel yesterday. I'm interested to see where this goes. I know you hate everything Obama says or does, but so far, besides perhaps Libyan intervention I think Obama's foreign policies have looked great.

Oil is a world market and traded in USD. Libya provided countries specifically in Europe with oil so any interruption of delivery is going to cause a spike in oil prices. Traders buy futures contracts . There are conflicts in the world much worse than Libya but can we be everywhere at the same time? Its not really a stretch to say that intervention is a cause of rising prices.

I think Israel can do just fine without our aid. Im not downplaying the threat of another Arab Israeli war and what it can do to the world markets, especially energy, however if attacked I think we all can agree Israel has a right to defend itself.


Back to the borders issue.- There arent illegals coming in with suicide vests.... Yet. However as a fiscal issue ever since the expanding illegal population combined with 45 years of the great society of LBJ Trillions have been pissed away on foreigners who have hopped a fence or overstayed their visa


I dont hate everything Obama does, there was no criticism over OBLs killing or the pirates or missile defense. He has made some good foreign policy moves, However why are we still stuck in an Afghan mess? Even the progressive base wants out.
The border can be somewhat related as Mexican gangs are using Muslim tactics like beheadings, killing innocent people and other acts of violence, what if that spills over to El Paso or Brownsville?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Maybe he does wish it was 2008 when he was loved by almost all

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Obama-Mistake-Westminster-Guest-Book-Dated-2008-By-US-President-Barack-Obama/Article/201105415998813?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Te aser_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15998813_Obama_Mistake%3A_Westminster_ Guest_Book_Dated_2008_By_US_President_Barack_Obama


And everyone thought dubya was a stumbling idiot


http://www.mediaite.com/tv/president-obama-awkwardly-flubs-toast-to-the-queen/

[Furtherman]

Protocol, apparently, requires the toastmaster to wait until after “God Save the Queen” plays and then begin the toast. But the almighty O waits for no sovereign, so he launched straight into his shpiel. To which I say, good for him. What else was the American revolution about, if not the right of the president to half-ass some formulaic niceties about the British monarch? He should have punctuated it with a weary “whatever” and downed the glass in one gulp

And after Obama having a Guinness in Ireland while the Queen turned one down, I think he just locked in the Irish vote.

[A.J.]

And after Obama having a Guinness in Ireland while the Queen turned one down, I think he just locked in the Irish vote.

He's shanty Irish.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Barry O'Bama 2012

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://www.talkleft.com/bushplaysguitar.jpg

GWB doesnt care about Black people


The midwest is flattened

http://danedegenhardt.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/barack_obama_caricature_irish_ireland.jpg?w=400&amp;h= 563


Erin Go Barack

[Dude!]

i love how michelle made
a statement by meeting
the queen with a giant afro


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/26/article-1390986-0C44C00400000578-37_634x407.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Race card alert. This time from James Clyburne

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/05/25/114793/racism-to-blame-for-obamas-problems.html

[A.J.]

Race card alert. This time from James Clyburne

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/05/25/114793/racism-to-blame-for-obamas-problems.html

I'm surprised more black mayors don't use this excuse.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

While you were sleeping


http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/27/obamas-autopen-signs-patriot-act-extension-before-midnight-deadline/

[Jujubees2]

While you were sleeping


http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/27/obamas-autopen-signs-patriot-act-extension-before-midnight-deadline/

Autopen. How cool is that?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Autopen. How cool is that?

Hopefully he got it right and didnt sign it 5/26/08


I know being President is a stressful job but its 2011. Maybe he's still drunk from that pint of guinness


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390535/Obama-London-visit-2011-President-signs-Westminster-Abbey-guestbook-2008.html

[sailor]

Can't stand Hilary, but I'm glad she's toned down the anti-Pakistan language. A much better move than what gates put out there earlier.

[JimBeam]

I am no fan of this guy at all but I found it completely ridiculous that some people were saying he should've cancelled his trip to come home to have a press conference about the people that died in MO.

I mean people die every hour in this country, some in more tragic ways than others, so do we really need the president to acknowledge all of them ?

The guy would never have time to go on Oprah.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Im very skeptical about this whole Arab Spring mantra. Obama is foolish to be giving the Egyptians a billion and forgiving their debt. He is still very naive when it comes to foreign policy

[brettmojo]

Im very skeptical about this whole Arab Spring mantra. Obama is foolish to be giving the Egyptians a billion and forgiving their debt. He is still very naive when it comes to foreign policy
Yeah he should just tell them to fuck themselves then do whatever he wants unilaterally. Worked so great for the former administration.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yeah he should just tell them to fuck themselves then do whatever he wants unilaterally. Worked so great for the former administration.

Whatever he wants. you mean like Libya ?


Egypt is a place of tolerance and open mindedness just ask the Coptic Christians and Lara Logan

[hanso]

Egypt is a gateway. Much like Pakistan is to China.

[A.J.]

Egypt is a gateway. Much like Pakistan is to China.

And marijuana is to cocaine.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Getting better ?

Economy added 54,000 jobs in May, far fewer than analysts expected. Jobless rate rises to 9.1% from 9% in April.
Stock futures decline sharply on the report, indicating a big selloff at the Wall Street open.

[Dudeman]

Getting better ?

Economy added 54,000 jobs in May, far fewer than analysts expected. Jobless rate rises to 9.1% from 9% in April.
Stock futures decline sharply on the report, indicating a big selloff at the Wall Street open.

adding jobs is better than losing jobs, like we were when ron paul's republican party was in the white house.

[StanUpshaw]

http://i.imgur.com/YZKo1.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

adding jobs is better than losing jobs, like we were when ron paul's republican party was in the white house.

Unemployment January 2009 7.6%
Today 9.1%

http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/moodys_threatens_us_govt_credit_rating_110602/



Getting better?


Fuck it. Lets try QE3

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Gotta call Bravo Sierra on this They will donate tons of cash and vote for him


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-01/union-enthusiasm-for-obama-re-election-fades-afl-cio-s-chief-trumka-says.html

[foodcourtdruide]

Unemployment January 2009 7.6%
Today 9.1%

http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/moodys_threatens_us_govt_credit_rating_110602/



Getting better?


Fuck it. Lets try QE3

Again, WF sees the world ONLY to look at Obama as doing a bad job.

Time/Unemployment Rate
Dec 2007/5.0
Dec 2008/7.3
Dec 2009/9.9
Dec 2010/9.4
Now/9.1

So unemployment was climbing during GWB into Dec 2008. When Obama became President it continued to grow (WF, did you think Obama would magically end unemployment? Isn't that what you accuse liberals of expecting of him?). However, it has since began to go down. How do you explain the 2.3% increase in unemployment between 07/08?

I don't even think Obama had much to do with the economy getting better as far as employment goes, I just think it's funny WF uses crazy logic to back-up his beliefs.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Again, WF sees the world ONLY to look at Obama as doing a bad job.

Time/Unemployment Rate
Dec 2007/5.0
Dec 2008/7.3
Dec 2009/9.9
Dec 2010/9.4
Now/9.1

So unemployment was climbing during GWB into Dec 2008. When Obama became President it continued to grow (WF, did you think Obama would magically end unemployment? Isn't that what you accuse liberals of expecting of him?). However, it has since began to go down. How do you explain the 2.3% increase in unemployment between 07/08?

I don't even think Obama had much to do with the economy getting better as far as employment goes, I just think it's funny WF uses crazy logic to back-up his beliefs.

2 years into the stimulus and Unempl is still above 8%. Remember it was not supposed to go past that mark? A net job loss since the stimulus.


Chris Matthews had a good stat last night No president has ever been reelected since FDR when the rate was above 7.2


If another milquetoast candidate is nominated by rhe GOP or if its Palin Obama gets reelected they deserve to lose. If they can pound him on the economy and get their message across he's done

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Bravo!!!!


On this issue I stand with Kucinich


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/04/world/africa/04policy.html

[Jujubees2]

Bravo!!!!


On this issue I stand with Kucinich


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/04/world/africa/04policy.html

So while unemployment and the deficit are going up you applaud the politicians for doing something that means nothing?

As a legislative matter, the resolution has no practical effect and is little more than an expression of opinion. A decision by the Supreme Court over two decades ago suggested that Congress was not empowered to enforce a resolution or other directive that, unlike a bill, the president has no chance to veto.

[James_from_CT]

ya i agree worst. what i hate the most is that anything you say about the president no matter what it is, it always comes back to fuckin "well you just hate him because hes black" fuck that shit i believe that is more racist than anything i have ever said. unfortunately he is still president so he deserves respect in that regard but seriously? any dissent is racism? fuck that, fuck liberals and neone who thinks they know better than i do how to live my own life, fuck you :furious:


love ya fezzie :P

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So while unemployment and the deficit are going up you applaud the politicians for doing something that means nothing?

As a legislative matter, the resolution has no practical effect and is little more than an expression of opinion. A decision by the Supreme Court over two decades ago suggested that Congress was not empowered to enforce a resolution or other directive that, unlike a bill, the president has no chance to veto.


Its sending a message to the president that he is not a king. It doesnt go far enough. The house should put forth a bill that cuts off funding

[WRESTLINGFAN]

ya i agree worst. what i hate the most is that anything you say about the president no matter what it is, it always comes back to fuckin "well you just hate him because hes black" fuck that shit i believe that is more racist than anything i have ever said. unfortunately he is still president so he deserves respect in that regard but seriously? any dissent is racism? fuck that, fuck liberals and neone who thinks they know better than i do how to live my own life, fuck you :furious:


love ya fezzie :P

I disagree with his white side too

[Jujubees2]

ya i agree worst. what i hate the most is that anything you say about the president no matter what it is, it always comes back to fuckin "well you just hate him because hes black" fuck that shit i believe that is more racist than anything i have ever said. unfortunately he is still president so he deserves respect in that regard but seriously? any dissent is racism? fuck that, fuck liberals and neone who thinks they know better than i do how to live my own life, fuck you :furious:


love ya fezzie :P

James, please don't hold back. Tell us how you really fell.

[Crispy123]

ya i agree worst. what i hate the most is that anything you say about the president no matter what it is, it always comes back to fuckin "well you just hate him because hes black" fuck that shit i believe that is more racist than anything i have ever said. unfortunately he is still president so he deserves respect in that regard but seriously? any dissent is racism? fuck that, fuck liberals and neone who thinks they know better than i do how to live my own life, fuck you :furious:


love ya fezzie :P

The poltical wit and wisdom that pours out of Connecticut is truly amazing.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The poltical wit and wisdom that pours out of Connecticut is truly amazing.

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IT-sBagXbT0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The poltical wit and wisdom that pours out of Connecticut is truly amazing.

They did elect a senator who lied about going to Vietnam so I agree with you there

[Crispy123]

Yes Florida drivers are bad. Because most of them learned to drive in Jersey!

[hanso]

2 years into the stimulus and Unempl is still above 8%. Remember it was not supposed to go past that mark? A net job loss since the stimulus.


Chris Matthews had a good stat last night No president has ever been reelected since FDR when the rate was above 7.2


If another milquetoast candidate is nominated by rhe GOP or if its Palin Obama gets reelected they deserve to lose. If they can pound him on the economy and get their message across he's done

Foodcourt just showed you it went down over the last 2 years. Yet you call that a net loss.

Also 1/3 of it still hasn't been spent. The part that would help with jobs.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Foodcourt just showed you it went down over the last 2 years. Yet you call that a net loss.

Also 1/3 of it still hasn't been spent. The part that would help with jobs.

Job losses since stimulus. Over 2 million



http://kingston.house.gov/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/chart-job-loss-stimulus-124.jpg


http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/assets_c/2010/02/unemp%202010-01%20cht1-



Keynesian economics does not work as it brings on structural debt and defecits. The economy isnt stimulating, its goal was to increase government spending while devouring the currency

This is no recovery. 30% OF Home sales are due to foreclosures, housing has not hit bottom, government intervention only prolonged the agony.


Anyone who touts the stock market being at 12K as being signs of a recovery is out of their mind as the dow/nasdaq s&p are not drivers of the total economy

[Syd]

Keynesian economics does not work as it brings on structural debt and defecits. The economy isnt stimulating, its goal was to increase government spending while devouring the currency

Keynesian economics does work: see Deal, The New

[Dude!]

Keynesian economics does work: see Deal, The New

no, see War, World II
that and only that
ended FDR's depression

also, see
Concentration Camps, Japs interred by FDR

[brettmojo]

no, see War, World II
that and only that
ended FDR's depression

also, see
Concentration Camps, Japs interred by FDR
INTERNMENT... Say it with me. IN-TERN-MENT. That makes us better than the Nazis. :thumbup:

[Dudeman]

http://kingston.house.gov/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/chart-job-loss-stimulus-124.jpg


http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/assets_c/2010/02/unemp%202010-01%20cht1-



anyone who thought suddenly we would go from massive job losses (under the administration of ron paul's republican party) to massive job gains is a complete idiot. the trend had to change. look at the derivative of the slope of the curve- definitely the trend has changed for the better. solved? no way. better? the derivative of the slope proves yes.

[Dude!]

better? the derivative of the slope proves yes.

wow...that's a hell of a
2012 campaign slogan

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The administration said 8% was the threshold. It's been almost 2 1/2 years and the results are dismal. The ones who say it wasn't enough spending how much should he have spent then? Is 787 billion not enough ?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

wow...that's a hell of a
2012 campaign slogan


Change (For the worse) has come to America

[hanso]

INTERNMENT... Say it with me. IN-TERN-MENT. That makes us better than the Nazis. :thumbup:

Rand Paul is for putting folks there now. If they attend 'Radical Political Speeches'. What he said in a recent speech.

[hanso]

The administration said 8% was the threshold. It's been almost 2 1/2 years and the results are dismal. The ones who say it wasn't enough spending how much should he have spent then? Is 787 billion not enough ?

I think it did hit the high 8's And yes the right did water it down, And will not spend the 1/3 that is for jobs. They follow the Rush Limbaugh rule of hope for failure. To help them take over to really mess things up again.

Keynesian economics works wonders compared to trickel down. Or the Ayn Rand politics being imposed now.

[Dudeman]

Change (For the worse) has come to America

reality disagrees with you

http://blog.markcz.com/obama-racine-midterm-election-warmup/bush-obama-job-growth.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

reality disagrees with you

http://blog.markcz.com/obama-racine-midterm-election-warmup/bush-obama-job-growth.jpg



Reality like a larger unemployment rate.

[Dudeman]

Reality like a larger unemployment rate.

You can keep saying that but you know it is isn't an accurate understanding of the issues. As I just posted, anyone who thought we could go from massive job losses to job gains overnight is an idiot. What needed to occur was a change in the trend- from increasing number of jobs losses to less job losses to jobs gains. That is what has happened.

[Dudeman]

Change (For the worse) has come to America

reality disagrees with you part II

http://arnulfo.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/48794122_us_troops_iraq_624.gif

[WRESTLINGFAN]

reality disagrees with you part II

http://arnulfo.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/48794122_us_troops_iraq_624.gif


That's a measure of success? And where are a lot of those combat troops now? Stuck in a losing effort a couple of thousand miles to the east and the president starting an illegal kinetic military operation "his admins words" without congressional consent. Yesterdays resolution in the house was symbolic as they should have voted to cut off funds too bad the tan man has no cajones. But in any case a lot of dems signed on

[Dudeman]

That's a measure of success? And where are a lot of those combat troops now? Stuck in a losing effort a couple of thousand miles to the east and the president starting an illegal kinetic military operation "his admins words" without congressional consent. Yesterdays resolution in the house was symbolic as they should have voted to cut off funds too bad the tan man has no cajones. But in any case a lot of dems signed on

1. If you are comparing Iraq to Libiya in scope and justification youre crazy. That said, it was of course the Democrat Kucinich that spearheaded the resolution and the republican Boehner that put for the milder alternative.
2. Do you really have doubts that in a matter of time, just like with the change int he trend in jobs, that the withdrawal from afgan isnt going to go on as it has under obama in iraq? Just like with the jobs, nothing happens overnight. But it will come, especially now that he took care of this:

http://kristin-cavallari-images.co.cc/images/kw/osama-bin-laden-killed-dead-shoot-on-head-2.jpg

[hanso]

The rate was at 8.8 % I think it was. For the month not long ago. And it got no coverage. Oh that darn Liberal media again..

[StanUpshaw]

http://i.imgur.com/p1INA.png
http://icasualties.org/OEF/ByMonth.aspx

Commence the hand waving and special pleading...

[hanso]

WF is barking up the wrong tree when it comes to the war efforts.
Have a look at the voting results for the bill to pull out of the Afghan War by end of 2011 that was defeated.


Posted : Thursday Mar 17, 2011
The vote was 321-93 ... A similar resolution failed in the House last March on a vote of 356-65

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/03/ap-house-rejects-quick-drawdown-from-afghanistan-031711/

[Dudeman]

http://i.imgur.com/p1INA.png
http://icasualties.org/OEF/ByMonth.aspx

Commence the hand waving and special pleading...

The iraq war has been a tragedy. The justification for starting the war was a lie.

Now we need to figure out the best way to get out of there without leaving behind a situation that is worse for our national security than what was there originally.


(Remember that the entire 2004 election was about the Republican party vilifying anyone who said what I just wrote.

Sep 6, 2004 ... Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry on Monday called the invasion of Iraq "the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time")

[WRESTLINGFAN]

1. If you are comparing Iraq to Libiya in scope and justification youre crazy. That said, it was of course the Democrat Kucinich that spearheaded the resolution and the republican Boehner that put for the milder alternative.
2. Do you really have doubts that in a matter of time, just like with the change int he trend in jobs, that the withdrawal from afgan isnt going to go on as it has under obama in iraq? Just like with the jobs, nothing happens overnight. But it will come, especially now that he took care of this:

http://kristin-cavallari-images.co.cc/images/kw/osama-bin-laden-killed-dead-shoot-on-head-2.jpg

Both are unnecessary wars. Granted Iraq is a mess and has cost more in lives and money, Bush used faulty intel and there were no WMDs however he did get an authorization from congress. I am not for the war powers act. Wars should be declared by congress. However Obama started a 3rd war without going to congress. I am no huge supporter of the tan man. This new majority is basically rearranging deck chairs

No one expected 5% unemployment by the summer of '09. However its almost 30 months later and there are net job losses. Youre making comparisons like for example your favorite baseball team finishes dead last by going 62-100. In the offseason they sign Albert Pujols, CC sabathia and trade to get Joe Mauer. Tahe next year they go 40-122 but they didnt have as many 10 game losing streaks as the prior year. They still finish with a worse record despite signing 2 top free agents for top dollar and trading for another A list salaried player. Obama had huge majorities in 2009 in both houses, including a filibuster proof senate he could have gotten a bigger stimulus if he wanted. Blaming the other side is a weak arguement


If the economy is still the way it is, touting that an Arab was shot in the face twice is not a lock for reelection. Bush 41 had a 91% rating at the end of Gulf War I and lost.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Out by 2011 ?


Not so fast.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12990912



Still waiting for Gtmo to be closed

[A.J.]

The iraq war has been a tragedy. The justification for starting the war was a lie.

Now we need to figure out the best way to get out of there without leaving behind a situation that is worse for our national security than what was there originally.


(Remember that the entire 2004 election was about the Republican party vilifying anyone who said what I just wrote.

Sep 6, 2004 ... Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry on Monday called the invasion of Iraq "the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time")

I think if Iraq is brought into the GCC, it has a better chance for stability. Iraq is majority Shia and is therefore susceptible to Iranian influence. The same thing is true for Bahrain, and when Iran was suspected of influencing the protests there a few months ago, a joint GCC military force stepped in to establish control. The Sunni-majority Gulf states don't want an emboldened Iran so bringing Iraq into the fold would be a good way to prevent that from happening.

[sailor]

That's a measure of success? And where are a lot of those combat troops now? Stuck in a losing effort a couple of thousand miles to the east and the president starting an illegal kinetic military operation "his admins words" without congressional consent. Yesterdays resolution in the house was symbolic as they should have voted to cut off funds too bad the tan man has no cajones. But in any case a lot of dems signed on

congress never approves wars and both sides use this to their advantage against presidents from the opposing party. it's silly no matter who is doing it.

[hanso]

That total war deaths chart is way off. 1700 by rounding up for both wars

When there are apx 4500 from Iraq alone.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110601/ap_on_re_us/us_iraq_us_deaths

[hanso]

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The Paul's are so Indie, never right leaning right WF?

[Dudeman]

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The Paul's are so Indie, never right leaning right WF?

And Ronnie's not part of the wacky religious right

At the Faith and Freedom Coalition conference,:

1. "We have, as a people, lost our confidence and our understanding of what true liberty is all about and where it comes from," he summed. "It doesn't come from the government. Our liberties come from our Creator."


2. He said that being pro-life is an important part of being a libertarian.
"So if we do not have high respect for life, how can we be dealing with our personal freedom, our personal privacy?" he reasoned.
(http://www.christianpost.com/news/ron-paul-our-liberties-come-from-our-creator-50858/)

1. What if you are an athiest? Then you don't have freedoms?

2. Sounds like Anti-choice, big government in your bedroom talk.

[StanUpshaw]

Can we get a mod to officially change his name to Strawman?

Who the FUCK is talking about Ron Paul, let alone how Ron Paul panders to a religious crowd?

[hanso]

"You know, our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. In fact Thomas Jefferson said it's good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years. I hope that's not where we're going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying, 'My goodness, what can we do to turn this country around?' I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out."

Sharron Angle..
So any who went to an assembly where this take back our country, 2nd amendment remedies talk by her and many others. Would then be subject to internment camps according to Rand Paul.

[KnoxHarrington]

And Ronnie's not part of the wacky religious right

At the Faith and Freedom Coalition conference,:

1. "We have, as a people, lost our confidence and our understanding of what true liberty is all about and where it comes from," he summed. "It doesn't come from the government. Our liberties come from our Creator."


2. He said that being pro-life is an important part of being a libertarian.
"So if we do not have high respect for life, how can we be dealing with our personal freedom, our personal privacy?" he reasoned.
(http://www.christianpost.com/news/ron-paul-our-liberties-come-from-our-creator-50858/)

1. What if you are an athiest? Then you don't have freedoms?

2. Sounds like Anti-choice, big government in your bedroom talk.

Ron and Rand Paul have been portrayed as "libertarians", but they're far from it. When Ron Paul says something like how government shouldn't criminalize drugs, he means only the federal government. In his worldview, your state and local governments could have pretty much limitless power to regulate morality.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Not even hip hop artists have this big of an entourage.

How many bags and caddies does he need to be practicing for the PGA Tour




http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20067610-10391695.html

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Ron and Rand Paul have been portrayed as "libertarians", but they're far from it. When Ron Paul says something like how government shouldn't criminalize drugs, he means only the federal government. In his worldview, your state and local governments could have pretty much limitless power to regulate morality.

Paul co-sponsored the States' Rights to Medical Marijuana Act:

Title: To provide for the medical use of marijuana in accordance with the laws of the various States. Summary: Transfers marijuana from schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act to schedule II of such Act. Declares that, in a State in which marijuana may be prescribed or recommended by a physician for medical use under applicable State law, no provision of the Controlled Substances Act shall prohibit or otherwise restrict:

the prescription or recommendation of marijuana by a physician for medical use;

an individual from obtaining and using marijuana from a physician's prescription or recommendation of marijuana for medical use; or

a pharmacy from obtaining and holding marijuana for the prescription or recommendation of marijuana by a physician for medical use under applicable State law.

Prohibits any provision of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act from prohibiting or restricting a State entity from producing or distributing marijuana for the purpose of its distribution for prescription or recommendation by a physician in a State in which marijuana may be prescribed by a physician for medical use.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

As usual progressives take a 38 second clip trying to show Paul is not a civil libertarian. Good job media matters et al.



http://reason.com/blog/2011/06/02/does-rand-paul-really-want-to


All the bedwetting occured because the progressive failed to realize that 2 Iraqis were arrested in KY for terrorism charges.

http://www.whas11.com/news/Two-Iraqis-charged-in-Ky-with-terrorism-plotting-122880604.html

[Syd]

Ron and Rand Paul have been portrayed as "libertarians", but they're far from it. When Ron Paul says something like how government shouldn't criminalize drugs, he means only the federal government. In his worldview, your state and local governments could have pretty much limitless power to regulate morality.

That's pretty much it -- they're fine with authoritarianism so long as it is at the state level. Problem is history proved them to be wrong, and people want a stronger federal government than what the Pauls advocate.

[KnoxHarrington]

Paul co-sponsored the States' Rights to Medical Marijuana Act:

Title: To provide for the medical use of marijuana in accordance with the laws of the various States. Summary: Transfers marijuana from schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act to schedule II of such Act. Declares that, in a State in which marijuana may be prescribed or recommended by a physician for medical use under applicable State law, no provision of the Controlled Substances Act shall prohibit or otherwise restrict:

the prescription or recommendation of marijuana by a physician for medical use;

an individual from obtaining and using marijuana from a physician's prescription or recommendation of marijuana for medical use; or

a pharmacy from obtaining and holding marijuana for the prescription or recommendation of marijuana by a physician for medical use under applicable State law.

Prohibits any provision of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act from prohibiting or restricting a State entity from producing or distributing marijuana for the purpose of its distribution for prescription or recommendation by a physician in a State in which marijuana may be prescribed by a physician for medical use.

It prohibits the federal government from banning pot. If a state wants to make having a joint punishable by death, Mr. Libertarian doesn't have a problem at all with that.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It prohibits the federal government from banning pot. If a state wants to make having a joint punishable by death, Mr. Libertarian doesn't have a problem at all with that.

What state would ever call for the death penalty for having a joint. This isnt Saudi Arabia.

His principles arent that states can pass whatever they want. Thats like saying if a state mandates that you must wear black on Mon Wed Fri he would support that when thats not the case


Even is some nutjob state assemblyman called for that do you think the bill would even make it out of committee ?


States have constitutions too which limit their powers

[hanso]

As usual progressives take a 38 second clip trying to show Paul is not a civil libertarian. Good job media matters et al.



http://reason.com/blog/2011/06/02/does-rand-paul-really-want-to


All the bedwetting occured because the progressive failed to realize that 2 Iraqis were arrested in KY for terrorism charges.

http://www.whas11.com/news/Two-Iraqis-charged-in-Ky-with-terrorism-plotting-122880604.html


That's what Rand claimed. But he came back and said the same thing the 2nd time. Just like his race deal.

[hanso]

What state would ever call for the death penalty for having a joint. This isnt Saudi Arabia.

His principles arent that states can pass whatever they want. Thats like saying if a state mandates that you must wear black on Mon Wed Fri he would support that when thats not the case


Even is some nutjob state assemblyman called for that do you think the bill would even make it out of committee ?


States have constitutions too which limit their powers

Then why have there been over 60 anti abortion bills passed by states this far?

[brettmojo]

Then why have there been over 60 anti abortion bills passed by states this far?
Because of the clear separation of church and state mandated by our forefathers to prevent religious nut jobs from imposing their religious beliefs on the rest of us... Not that YOU BETCHA!

[hanso]

Because of the clear separation of church and state mandated by our forefathers to prevent religious nut jobs from imposing their religious beliefs on the rest of us... Not that YOU BETCHA!

Jubus is in their corner. No wonder they don't like taxes.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Because of the clear separation of church and state mandated by our forefathers to prevent religious nut jobs from imposing their religious beliefs on the rest of us... Not that YOU BETCHA!

Exactly


asalamalakum


http://abcnews.go.com/US/Media/oklahoma-pass-laws-prohibiting-islamic-sharia-laws-apply/story?id=10908521

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://cagle.com/working/110603/darkow.jpg

[Dudeman]

No one expected 5% unemployment by the summer of '09. However its almost 30 months later and there are net job losses. Youre making comparisons like for example your favorite baseball team finishes dead last by going 62-100. In the offseason they sign Albert Pujols, CC sabathia and trade to get Joe Mauer. Tahe next year they go 40-122 but they didnt have as many 10 game losing streaks as the prior year. They still finish with a worse record despite signing 2 top free agents for top dollar and trading for another A list salaried player.


worst analogy attempt

ever

[WRESTLINGFAN]

worst analogy attempt

ever

Sorry if you don't understand baseball and know who those players are

[Dudeman]

Sorry if you don't understand baseball and know who those players are

oh, i understand the baseball very well. as well as the economics.

that is why i can say...

worst analogy attempt.... ever


ii that really the best analogy for macro economics you can come up with? because there is nothing analogous about those situation.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

oh, i understand the baseball very well. as well as the economics.

that is why i can say...

worst analogy attempt.... ever


ii that really the best analogy for macro economics you can come up with? because there is nothing analogous about those situation.

How so?

Team is in last place. spend money that your team doesnt have to get the 3 top players. Finish worse than last season.

Next season ticket sales down

Doesnt take a 2500 page blue ribbon panel to report.

[Dudeman]

How so?

Team is in last place. spend money that your team doesnt have to get the 3 top players. Finish worse than last season.

Next season ticket sales down

Doesnt take a 2500 page blue ribbon panel to report.

It may not take 2500 pages, but I'm sure as can be that the economy of a country with more than 300 million people is more complicated than:

"Team is in last place. spend money that your team doesnt have to get the 3 top players. Finish worse than last season.
Next season ticket sales down"

Your analogy sucked. Your attempt to explain the US economy in 1 sentence and 2 sentence fragments was worse.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It may not take 2500 pages, but I'm sure as can be that the economy of a country with more than 300 million people is more complicated than:

"Team is in last place. spend money that your team doesnt have to get the 3 top players. Finish worse than last season.
Next season ticket sales down"

Your analogy sucked. Your attempt to explain the US economy in 1 sentence and 2 sentence fragments was worse.

Your president sucks.

Maybe I should use a golf analogy since he loves to hit the links

[Syd]

So, what do you propose to fix the economy?

if it's cutting the budget, what do you think happens when another large segment of the workforce is gone? Will they just magically have money to spend on consumer goods?

Debt/deficit aren't important unless you represent capital, in which case it's a tool to use to move money from the public sector into the private sector. The only people against it right now are people who tell the rubes that blah blah blah deficit is bad because we say it is bad. Meanwhile, back in reality, American t-bills are still extremely lucrative. If there was any actual concern over deficit you'd be hearing about it from more than just the mouthpiece of the GOP.

The only way out of a recession is to create jobs -- private industry sure as fuck isn't and the tax rates are largely the same as they were back when unemployment was just fine. They're just finding out they can make workers work harder for less and show a better profit from it. What's the incentive to hire? By the time the economy shits the bed again the CEOs will have retired or shuffled off to another company.

The people are the only ones who can create jobs at-will in the form of infrastructure repair/development. You kill two birds there by creating jobs/keeping jobs around as well as preventing even more costly/unnecessary emergency repairs in the future. Given the state of disrepair roads, electrical and potable water are in this nation any work done now, especially while money/labor is cheap, is a wise decision. On top of that, the unemployment is still high in the rust and meth belt in states that traditionally ignore infrastructure. Give them federal funds to put their house back in order, have workers be able to go out and purchase goods to create demand for retailers and sit back and watch the economy recover.

Or, just listen to Fox News tell you what the GOP wants you to hear so they can score political points by pretending imaginary shit (the debt) matters.

[Syd]

and another on the "why cutting taxes doesn't do shit to create jobs despite what Fox News tells you"

American business profit: $1.659 trillion
American business profit: $1.655 trillion

which was in 2006 and which was in 2010?

[TripleSkeet]

That's pretty much it -- they're fine with authoritarianism so long as it is at the state level. Problem is history proved them to be wrong, and people want a stronger federal government than what the Pauls advocate.

Because people hate to mind their own business. Sorry but it comes to this I agree with them. Let states decide their laws seperately, this way if you dont like the laws of one state, you can move to another.

Im no huge fan of Ron Paul but ill tell you what, Ill always like him for trying to do this...
http://m.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/raising_glass_to_ron_pnQMYegNe82iIc7oNyuVPK

[A.J.]

Im no huge fan of Ron Paul but ill tell you what, Ill always like him for trying to do this...
http://m.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/raising_glass_to_ron_pnQMYegNe82iIc7oNyuVPK

Ditto. Those strippers are trying to put themselves through college!

[Syd]

Because people hate to mind their own business. Sorry but it comes to this I agree with them. Let states decide their laws seperately, this way if you dont like the laws of one state, you can move to another.

So, what if you don't have the money to move?

That's the reason why libertarianism is, at best, a thought exercise. It doesn't protect the minority against the tyranny of the majority. There's no protection against it without a strong, central government that mediates problems (SCOTUS) or provides protections in the form of laws that are more in line with civil society (Congress). Without the federal government you'd have states like Oklahoma banning black people or states like Oregon legalizing Mr. Hands

Without opinion being filtered through the masses, you just invite chaos. History has repeatedly proven it but, like Communists, Libertarians just refuse the reality of the situation. It's a bullshit, philosophical at best, outlook on government.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So, what do you propose to fix the economy?

if it's cutting the budget, what do you think happens when another large segment of the workforce is gone? Will they just magically have money to spend on consumer goods?

Debt/deficit aren't important unless you represent capital, in which case it's a tool to use to move money from the public sector into the private sector. The only people against it right now are people who tell the rubes that blah blah blah deficit is bad because we say it is bad. Meanwhile, back in reality, American t-bills are still extremely lucrative. If there was any actual concern over deficit you'd be hearing about it from more than just the mouthpiece of the GOP.

The only way out of a recession is to create jobs -- private industry sure as fuck isn't and the tax rates are largely the same as they were back when unemployment was just fine. They're just finding out they can make workers work harder for less and show a better profit from it. What's the incentive to hire? By the time the economy shits the bed again the CEOs will have retired or shuffled off to another company.

The people are the only ones who can create jobs at-will in the form of infrastructure repair/development. You kill two birds there by creating jobs/keeping jobs around as well as preventing even more costly/unnecessary emergency repairs in the future. Given the state of disrepair roads, electrical and potable water are in this nation any work done now, especially while money/labor is cheap, is a wise decision. On top of that, the unemployment is still high in the rust and meth belt in states that traditionally ignore infrastructure. Give them federal funds to put their house back in order, have workers be able to go out and purchase goods to create demand for retailers and sit back and watch the economy recover.

Or, just listen to Fox News tell you what the GOP wants you to hear so they can score political points by pretending imaginary shit (the debt) matters.

When MOODYs threatens to reduce our AAA credit rating then its a problem. We have close to 50% of the population who pay zero in federal income taxes. Its an ever expansion of the zero liability voter. Sorry to say but poor people should have to pay federal income taxes. I know they might pay FICA for example but if they had some skin in the game and saw how their taxes are being spent then maybe they would think and act differently when voting.


Our national debt is equal to our total GDP about 14 trillion. One way to cut the budget is to withdraw from the middle east and Afghanistan. The wars are costing 10 billion a month. Not including Obamas latest kinetic military exercise in Libya

You just cant create a job out of thin air. A job iat the very basic definition is a demand for labor. Companies arent going to hire people they dont need


In regards to infrasctucture why did Obama call for an extra 50 billion when it was already allocated in his stimulus ?


Why is a so called jobs bill needed when the stimulus was supposed to create or save X amount of jobs?

[cougarjake13]

When MOODYs threatens to reduce our AAA credit rating then its a problem. We have close to 50% of the population who pay zero in federal income taxes. Its an ever expansion of the zero liability voter. Sorry to say but poor people should have to pay federal income taxes. I know they might pay FICA for example but if they had some skin in the game and saw how their taxes are being spent then maybe they would think and act differently when voting.


Our national debt is equal to our total GDP about 14 trillion. One way to cut the budget is to withdraw from the middle east and Afghanistan. The wars are costing 10 billion a month. Not including Obamas latest kinetic military exercise in Libya

You just cant create a job out of thin air. A job iat the very basic definition is a demand for labor. Companies arent going to hire people they dont need


In regards to infrasctucture why did Obama call for an extra 50 billion when it was already allocated in his stimulus ?


Why is a so called jobs bill needed when the stimulus was supposed to create or save X amount of jobs?




bring back the troops and have them build the border wall in south and then patrol that and the northern border

also have them going around checking for illegals, cause as long as they're here then americans wont do the jobs but at same time you gotta make it harder for people to just sit on the obama plan


i know it sounds gestapo like but im talking bout having like a task force that goes to businesses and checks on their status, not just randomly goin to peoples homes

[WRESTLINGFAN]

bring back the troops and have them build the border wall in south and then patrol that and the northern border

also have them going around checking for illegals, cause as long as they're here then americans wont do the jobs but at same time you gotta make it harder for people to just sit on the obama plan


i know it sounds gestapo like but im talking bout having like a task force that goes to businesses and checks on their status, not just randomly goin to peoples homes

Agreed on bringing home the troops and having them patrol the border.


Im against just hunting down illegals. Too much of a police state tactic, Plus it would require huge costs/men etc to carry that out.However cutting off entitlements for them and enforcing E Verify would greatly help. They come here for work and welfare. Cut the snakes head off and they will self deport. No incentive no opportunity no mas illegals

[Syd]

When MOODYs threatens to reduce our AAA credit rating then its a problem.

Moodys, like the same people who labeled garbage mortgages as AAA? Yeah, let's all of a sudden trust them.

We have close to 50% of the population who pay zero in federal income taxes. Its an ever expansion of the zero liability voter.

So, scale back mortgage interest write-offs and that number changes drastically. No longer will the middle class aspire to have homes. Also, your numbers are wrong it's more like 36%, but it's not just poor people who have zero liability. Some significant portion of Fortune 500 companies haven't paid anything in taxes at least once in the past decade.


I know they might pay FICA for example but if they had some skin in the game and saw how their taxes are being spent then maybe they would think and act differently when voting.

So, would they not want to pay into a program they'll benefit from like Medicare or Social Security? Or do you mean the defense budget?


You just cant create a job out of thin air. A job iat the very basic definition is a demand for labor. Companies arent going to hire people they dont need


In regards to infrasctucture why did Obama call for an extra 50 billion when it was already allocated in his stimulus ?

Which is why Keynesian economics works -- you pay people to do essentially menial labor that creates value -- building/repairing infrastructure. There's always a demand for infrastructure development, especially with climate change (man made or not) radically altering where and how states will be bringing in potable water to communities.


Why is a so called jobs bill needed when the stimulus was supposed to create or save X amount of jobs?

Because the money is already spent and job losses are (still) exceeding jobs created?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Moodys, like the same people who labeled garbage mortgages as AAA? Yeah, let's all of a sudden trust them.

Its a downgrade
So, scale back mortgage interest write-offs and that number changes drastically. No longer will the middle class aspire to have homes. Also, your numbers are wrong it's more like 36%, but it's not just poor people who have zero liability. Some significant portion of Fortune 500 companies haven't paid anything in taxes at least once in the past decade.

Well since the administration wants to reclassify rich every 6 months, soon that will go down to 100,000 a year

So, would they not want to pay into a program they'll benefit from like Medicare or Social Security? Or do you mean the defense budget?

Poor people shouldnt be forced to pay into a massive DHS or Education department? What makes them special?






Which is why Keynesian economics works -- you pay people to do essentially menial labor that creates value -- building/repairing infrastructure. There's always a demand for infrastructure development, especially with climate change (man made or not) radically altering where and how states will be bringing in potable water to communities.


The administration should read up on Hazlett

Fallacy of Public Works for “Providing Employment”
July 20, 2007
Suppose the government decides to build a bridge. There can be no objection to building the bridge if it is built to meet an insistent public demand, if it solves a traffic problem or a transportation problem otherwise insoluble, if, in short, it is even more necessary to the taxpayers collectively than the things for which they would have individually spent their money if it had not been taxed away from them.But a bridge built primarily to “provide employment” is a different kind of bridge. When providing employment becomes the end, need becomes a subordinate consideration. “Projects” have to be invented. Instead of thinking only of where bridges must be built, the government spenders begin to ask themselves where bridges can be built.

Two arguments are put forward for the bridge, one of which is mainly heard before it is built, the other of which is mainly heard after it has been completed. The first argument is that it will provide employment. It will provide, say, 500 jobs for a year. The implication is that these are jobs that would not otherwise have come into existence.

This is what is immediately seen. A different picture presents itself if we have trained ourselves to look beyond the immediate to secondary consequences, and beyond those who are directly benefited by a government project to others who are indirectly affected. It is true that a particular group of bridgeworkers may receive more employment than otherwise. But the bridge has to be paid for out of taxes. For every dollar that is spent on the bridge a dollar will be taken away from taxpayers. If the bridge costs $10 million the taxpayers will lose $10 million. They will have that much taken away from them which they would otherwise have spent on things they need most.

For every public job created by the bridge project a private job has been destroyed somewhere else.

We can see the men employed on the bridge. We can watch them at work. The employment argument of the government spenders becomes vivid, and probably for most people convincing. But there are other things that we do not see, because, alas, they have never been permitted to come into existence. They are jobs destroyed by the $10 million taken away from the taxpayers. All that has happened, at best, is that there has been a diversion of jobs because of the project. More bridge builders; fewer automobile workers, television technicians, clothing workers, farmers.

But then we come to the second argument. The bridge exists. It is, let us suppose, a beautiful and not ugly bridge. It has come into being through the magic of government spending. The country is richer.

Here again the government spenders have the better of the argument with all those who cannot see beyond the immediate range of their physical eyes. They can see the bridge. But if they have taught themselves to look for indirect as well as direct consequences they can once more see in the eye of the imagination the possibilities that have never been allowed to come into existence. They can see the unbuilt homes, the unmade cars and washing machines, the unmade dresses and coats, perhaps the ungrown and unsold foodstuffs.

What has happened is merely that one (unnecessary) thing has been created instead of other (necessary) thingss.

– Economics in One Lesson by Henry HazlittBecause the money is already spent and job losses are (still) exceeding jobs created?


Keynesian Economics does not work

[Syd]

Keynesian Economics does not work

counterpoint: The New Deal / World War 2

if you don't admit the New Deal worked, that only means because it didn't compose enough of the GDP when over half the economy for the US was part of government spending

[hanso]

When MOODYs threatens to reduce our AAA credit rating then its a problem.

They are doing so only because the right is holding the debt bar hostage.
Under bush the bar went up something like 8 times. With nothing of the sorts going on.